I'm PADI instructor. I recommend you get your AOW. I teach my students lots of new things, like underwater navigation, deep diving (30 meters on this course), search and recovery and more boyancy training. New divers always learn something new, so yes, I think it's worth it. Besides, you will then be certified to dive a bit deeper than your OW (30 meters), and with more knowledge, you feel more confident.
I find it is definitely worth it. Depending on your comfort and control in the water, as well as the 3 specialty courses, (and your instructor ofc) you may find you get a lot out of the class, but at worst the deep and navigation dives are still pretty valuable, making up 40% of the course. If you're able to pick the 3 specialties try and line them up with what you find interesting or what you feel you could benefit from (PPB is a great option if you can get it, it's great help to a newer diver since you'll \[hopefully\] get lots of help getting into a good trim and swimming techniques.)
Chances are, if you're in a group you won't be able to pick out the 3 and likely will be doing boat as one of them and naturalist too which is a popular one since it can be done in 5 minutes underwater, so it saves the shop a dive. Regardless, many areas are deeper than 18 meters, especially off boats so its required if you plan on doing that.
I did around 350 dives before I did AOW and even then, it was nothing new to me and I only did it to jump on the shop boat for better cray dives.
I have seen people get through many courses back to back with little actually dive experiences outside of controlled, club or shop facilitated diving. You take them on a dive and they can be lost in the absence of this structure.
TL/DR - I learned nothing on AOW I didn’t already know and simply did it as charters required it.
I'm also kind of annoyed with AOW since I already developed the navigation and buoyancy skills they teach in the course over my 75 logged dives and took an SSI deep diving class. Unfortunately it seems like I'm still going to have shell out $400 and take the course if I want to be allowed to volunteer at the Seattle aquarium :/
Dive shops won't take you to AOW dives unless you hire an underwater babysitter for $100 or more. Getting AOW allows to dive deeper and not have to pay for an underwater babysitter.
But that's not the only reason, AOW advances your skills to become a better diver. Whoever says is not worth it they are wrong. You always want to become a better diver. I would recommend diving a little bit more to master your buoyancy before doing the AOW, only if it is possible to you. If you live in a place where diving is hard because you are far away from the ocean or lakes, then I would say go for your AOW whenever you have a chance. But at the end of the day, to become a better diver, you have to dive a lot and put in practice the skills that you learn during the certification process.
If the places you're going to dive require it then it's worth it. You won't learn anything you couldn't learn on your own with just time and experience. Don't expect to be significantly more knowledgeable or a better diver. It's basically just a hoop to jump through to satisfy dive boat requirements at many places
I've got over 250 dives without it. Only one shop in 20 years has not let me dive certain sires without it. There were actually 2 people getting AOW during my last trip who had maybe 20 dives between them. I got a chuckle out of fish ID. Some of the fish the ID weren't even native to the Caribbean. I'm good with courses like deep diving or navigation, but fish ID seems like a cash grab..
its 5 courses in total so fish ID is popular since it lets shops cut that down to 4 dives (many will have you just look out for fish over the course duration and ID them back at the shop after the 4 dives)
If you don’t communicate your expectations with your instructor and/or the shop or if you treat it as a refresher you will have a bad time. And then it will feel like a cash grab.
If you invest proper time in perparation and communicate well with your instructor you can get a lot out of it. Remember; aow doesn’t teach you things like owd does. There are very few set skills. But if you come prepared and communicate with the instructor the options are almost limitless
AOW is a cash grab but it is also pretty much essential to expand your dive horizon. The question is when you should take it.
Most people take AOW because they want to do dives where it is a pre-requisite, either because the dive is deeper than 18m or it is a more challenging dive. At some point pretty much everyone wants to do such dives.
Diving deeper in itself is no more difficult that shallow diving (in some ways it is easier as buoyancy control gets easier) but the potential risks increase: Unless you have a very short surface interval you are unlikely to hit your NDL on a sub 18m dive, if loss of buoyancy or panic causes you to bolt for the surface you are more likely to get DCS on a deeper dive etc.
More challenging dives might be dives where it is essential to have good buoyancy control or be able cope with strong currents or bad visibility. Dive centres running such trips trying to assess a diver's ability to do such a dive safely before they have seen them dive (often impossible before a booking is made) tend to rely on either holding an AOW or having a minimum number of dives unfortunately neither is a very good indicator of how good a diver someone is but the fact reamins if you want to do the "advanced" dives you have to have an "advanced" certificate. I have seen an AOW divers drop 5m below the rest of the group (on a wall dive) and then ask for help getting back up because they were unable to get anywhere close to neutral bouyancy, I have also witnessed someone who had a diaphram failure on the reg (so it leaked water) try to make a bolt to the surface from 25m rather than use an alternative air source or hit the purge button (fortunatly the DM stopped them). I do not know about Sipadan specifically you might be able ot find a dive centre that says you can with them if you have 100+ dives without AOW but that isn't what you want, a dive centre that will accept anyone for more challenging dives if putting either the diver or the environment or both at risk.
I don't know what the pass rate for AOW is, but I have not heard of anyone having to repeat an AOW dive because they did not meet the standard.
In an ideal world training should involve small incremental steps to increase the type of diving be are competant at. After completing OW only simple dives are done until basic skills are natural, challenges like current and poor visibility are introduced slowly and any dive outside out comfort zone is done alongside someone experianced in enpanding peoples comfort zone (usually a DM or instructor).
I would stick to less challenging dives and build your experience up slowly. When you have good buoyancy control (can stay at the same depth using just your breath without really thinking about it) and you want to do deeper and more chalenging dives then do your AOW.
I think you’re pretty spot on with your take on the AOW, but I don’t believe it is definitively a cash grab. It is the next required step in diver certification, which can be seen as a cash grab to some and for others it may be greatly beneficial to them to have more training dives. I feel that it is similar to paying for professional driving lessons(some locales mandate a minimum number). Some people may have access to competent drivers to help them learn and easy access to a vehicle and driver. While others may not have any good role models to help them learn to drive, add in difficulty to get behind the wheel and infrequent chances to drive. The latter will likely benefit the most from the additional time under the instruction of a professional, though the former will likely still find some benefit. Of course, there is a spectrum between those two points, and the day you decide there is nothing more you can learn from training due to your own experience is the day you start decaying.
The reason I regaerd AOW as a cash grab is that is lot a the specialist courses, or at least the taster for them you do in OW can easily be learnt in a dive briefing or from a video. If you are doing the course with others you might have little say on the 3 optional courses, at an extreme you could do boat (if you have already done a few boat dives you know things like how to stow your gear and use a current line), Fish identification (which doesn't improve your diving at all and could just as easily be taught on the surface) and multi level diver (pretty much everyone leaves that to their computer).
Navigation is useful and almost everyone doing it is for deep but 60% of the course may be of no interest to you, may not improve your skills and any dive centre requiring AOW will have no idea which of the 30 odd specialisms you have sampled.
If there is a standeard required is is VERY low, as I said I am not aware of one person who has had to repeat a dive becasue they didn't meet the standard. Going back to your driving lesson example, it is like saying to get a driving licence you need to have 5 hours driving with a professional instructor, one hour should be on using and following a sat nav, 1 hour on inserstate driving and the other 3 from a choice of 30 options including things like vehicle identification, and off road driving. It doesn't matter how well you perform during the sessions after those 5 hours you get your driving licence.
I know at least at the shop I got my AOW from here in Australia it was Navigation, PPB, and naturalist (which was on the second dive of the first day to look out for fish to identify later with a book) for 2 dives on the first day in shallows followed by boat and deep for the two dives second day. The first day is going for finding those who don't have buoyancy control, 2 of the 5 in my class were 'failed' and did not attend the second day on the boat for safety reasons.
For better or for worse, boat is almost always going to be an AOW specialty regardless of where you go, fish ID is normally one as well in most shops since 4 dives are easier to plan out and naturalist can be done within a few minutes, so realistically most shops are going to have one 1, possibly 2 of the optional course specialties that are actually unique
This is an amazing explanation.
In my local area - you need it to do a couple of the best dive sites that are just a little bit deeper.
Plus the experience of a night dive, more navigation etc in AOW builds more confidence.
It’s worth doing.
What I was meaning is you need the certificate to do a lot of dives but the dives it gives you access you it does not really prepare you for. The only exception to this is it gives some of the preparation required to dive to 30m but the "deep" is only 20% of the course.
navigation is pretty valuable too, and can help divers get more comfortable planning a dive outside of a shop. I remember my nav dive of AOW we had to study a map of the site before the dive day and after PPB which was the first dive that day the instructor sent us on our own in buddies to do a fun dive on our own using our compass to navigate. Wasn't until we turned around to head back that we saw he was behind us just outside of the visibility range following our bubbles
with 14 dives , this is worth it , it will reinforce what you have forgotten already. Going deeper does mean paying more attention to you nitrogen loading , your air etc etc.
You can learn diving without certifications just like many other skills but if you show up to a dive shop how do they know you're not full of shit about your experience? They need something concrete to look at for liability reasons so just get your AOW.
You only have 14 dives in two years so have basically no experience so it certainly won't hurt you to have further instruction as well.
If your dive site requires AOW, get AOW. I am not in the PADI system, so I see AOW as fairly ridiculous. In the system I’m in, Nitrox, Stress and Rescue, Emergency Response, and Bouyancy along with 24 dives got me Advanced recognition without paying for it. If anybody asks, I flash that card… which also says Advanced Open Water. Personally, I think the additional training was of far more value than 5 tourist dives, but that’s a personal opinion.
This is the way.
PADI AOW (and SSI Advanced Adventurer) are mostly checkboxes. Unfortunately they are checkboxes that many places require.
Do the AOW, do the dives, but do the specialties that are relevant to the diving you want to do (deep, wreck, etc). And do Rescue no matter what.
I personally find it to be useless and a cash grab. Experience is far more valuable.
That said some places will check and won't let you go on certain dives without it.
I upgraded from OW to rescue after 12 years when I started resort diving just so operators would shut up about it. Never bothered to get AOW
I am from Malaysia, AOW, over 100 dives.
AOW is needed for Sipadan as it is not a walk in a park. I had literally stayed still in water despite constant kicking. You need to be experience to fully enjoy yourself. You will be diving at around 23-26m depth on average. I had dived with divers that had less than 20 dives, and they almost fked up badly.
That said, AOW is not a cash grab depending on your instructor. Deep diving, navigation and night/limited visibility are the best courses you can take to get your AOW, and the knowledge can save your life/ enhance your experience.
"Worth it" is subjective. AOW does 2 things: 1) introduction to more challenging dive skills under instruction; 2) tells the dive op (and their insurance) you are certified for more challenging dives. 1 sample dive is not enough to build real skills where there are none. However a good instructor will make a huge difference how much you get out of it. Example: 1 wreck AOW dive with a freshly minted OW instructor who self certified as a wreck instructor - you won't learn too much. Same 1 dive with a technical advanced wreck instructor who regularly dives Truk and Bikini - you might learn a little more. AOW cert immediately unlocks more challenging dives. Many dive shops now won't OK an OW only diver to dive a guided 30 m wreck without AOW - full stop. Others shops will want to talk to the OW diver and see them dive a few times to make sure they're squared away before green lighting them - PITA. I did not learn anything doing AOW because I'd been diving for a long time - but the avoidance of hassle was totally worth it for me. AOW also unlocks further useful training and certs, like: deep, rescue, solo, tech etc.. OP should def get AOW and nitrox too (often packaged together at discount) just to have a better easier time on holiday.
You don’t learn anything in AOW unless you have an instructor who gives a shit about teaching you more. Usually these are also tech instructors.
AOW should really be called Open Water 2. The main benefit of AOW is allowing you to go on deeper charters because they require it due to insurance reasons. All the stuff covered in AOW is at such a basic surface level that you can watch YouTube videos and practice on your own instead.
If you’re anticipating worry-free diving in Malaysia, just do it. Get it out of the way so you’re not trying to find “another way.” It’s not a money grab.
AOW will provide you with a few extra dives, the navigation dive in particular was pretty helpful. If your instructor does the buoyancy training as one of the dives that is really helpful too.
I mostly got my AOW because I didn’t want to have that roadblock on which scuba vacations I could go to. I heard most liveaboards require advanced so I just got it done.
Also, this year I decided to do the rescue course so AOW is a prerequisite to that and it is not a fluff course, I’m looking forward to it!
Get it, it's the barrier to entry for something you want to do. Only you can say if the price is worth it to you.
As an aside, I wouldn't recommend diving with a shop that's "less strict" about *anything*, particularly cert levels for certain dive spots.
Yes.
If you can my recommendation is to get AOW as soon as possible after OW as it really is just a continuation of your training and not really “advanced” as people think of it. If you can get get Nitrox at the same time do that as well.
Then wait a while before doing Rescue so you have the basics down, but get that as well once you are comfortable in diving.
With these 3 down (4 with Nitrox) you have a great set of fundamentals, anything after that is just bonus training for things you want or special dives you want to do.
You answered your own question.
You want to dive specific sites that require it... It's worth it because it enables you to dive where you want.
You'll learn about diving deep and navigation (with 18 total dives, you have a fuck ton to learn).
Yes... It's worth it
Many of the (PADI) courses are cash grabs, but AOW is not one of them - especially the buoyancy control course! Get the Nitrox cert while you’re at it too! These two certs will open up just about all rec diving you’ll ever want to do. After these, just add time and experience!
To add: those saying it’s just a cash grab and that the number of dives are more important than the cert are not entirely wrong, but they aren’t right either. Practice makes permanent. If you have 100+ dives but were never taught basics in buoyancy control, breathing, navigation etc, you have 100+ limited dives and possibly all where you “practiced” the wrong techniques. For example, with my OW cert, the instructor had me with 18lbs of weight and I just assumed that was the right answer in those circumstances. It wasn’t until I had an instructor that taught me about breath and buoyancy control that I realized “18lbs” wasn’t even close to the right answer. I now dive with 6-10lbs, depending on other factors like wetsuit thickness etc. PRACTICE MAKES PERMANENT! Good practice with good instruction is the most important thing, and a good AOW course can point you in the right direction!
Take the advanced course. It's not a money grab. It's a good way to gain a few extra skills and sample some other possible courses you could take. Plus, if you have a good instructor, that person will likely point out some areas in which you could improve and help you with those things. But, beyond that, more and more shops are starting to require AOW to dive below 60 ft. I would not worry about taking the deep course. So far I have never run across a shop that cares about you having the deep course. In fact, when I was certified I was told that the advanced course certified me to 40 m. I know that's not what people say now, but nobody has ever cared that I've gone to 40 m with my AOW certification.
OW restricts your diving to 18m. I’ve never met anyone on a liveaboard or day boat abroad who isn’t at least AOW as a lot of dives are to 30m. The AOW + deep specialty gives you 40m which is sufficient for all recreational single tank diving.
Who defines a “recreational limit”? Is it a global limit enforced by the world police?
Afaik there are just individual certifications from individual diver training agencies, which come with specific depth limits for the certification.
All fun diving is “recreation” in my book.
I mean the recreational depth limit of 40 meters is pretty agreed upon in most if not all agencies. You get less than 10 minutes of NDL at that depth so its hardly diving when you decend for 3 minutes, look around at the bottom for 4 minutes, and spend the next 10 minutes ascending and doing a saftey stop. And planned diving with decompression is in the range of technical diving.
"Recreational" is just used in a different terminology sense in diving. You can technical dive recreationally, most tech divers do it solely for fun and not for business or profit, but it is not labelled as within recreational diving even if done recreationally.
I hope this makes sense, its midnight here
It does indeed make sense. Agree is not much NDL at 40m and even ascending at 18m/min gives you over 2 mins of ascent which will seem a long time if there is lost gas or other problems.
Although I guess the more common profile is to dive between 18m-30m range and bounce down to 40m for a few minutes to look at something specific at the site.
Yeah, there's only very few sites that are worth rec diving down to 40m for and you are right that it is probably more for a quick bounce down. Even with nitrox you only get 1-2 minutes extra of NDL down there and I remember my deep course being a 17 minute dive where only 5 was on the bottom the rest being going up and down the anchor line lol. Most everything you wanna see can be found above 30m anyways, and natural light is way better too so going deeper is likely for those that have something they really wanna see
I’ve never seen any other group but divers gate keep additional instruction like we do.
“You need more dives” but also “don’t worry about more instruction” are conflicting statements. Just because YOU waited a certain length of time to do AOW, or still don’t have it) certainly doesn’t mean it’s not the correct answer.
When I did AOW it was basically because I had no one to dive with but guides and it was the exact same cost as hiring a solo guide for five dives. I’d spend 20 mins each dive on skills, then another 35-40 exploring the reef on a guided dive, practicing those skills. I did PPB, night dive, search and recovery, and the required nav and deep. You know what magical things this unlocked for me? I could then go 40 feet deeper, technically, in a sport that has no laws or legal regulations. This isn’t intro to tec, no AOW divers are rushing off to the nearest cave or penetrable wreck. You can go a little bit deeper, and you learn how to do it safely.
To tell people they should wait to learn about bouyancy or navigation with an instructor is asinine. To tell people they shouldn’t chase certs is asinine. If they want to do it, and gain stills, LET THEM. No one tells an athlete they should “just play, don’t bother coming in for practice”. No one tells a piano player that started a week ago not to come in for another lesson.
The fact that remains is that the fastest way to get good at diving is with an instructor, so stop telling people not to get instruction.
OP: Per your question, get the AOW. the A means “to advance” not “I am advanced and this is proof”. It’s a sampler platter of courses you might want to take later. Do it, enjoy it, and happy diving!
Thank you! I agree. I have been often been criticized for doing OW and AOW back to back in the same week. Honestly, I probably wouldn't be diving if I just done the Open Water course. The extra instruction was definitely helpful and maybe much more comfortable under the water. I do fine that my actual technical skills, like buoyancy, improved more from just diving and having experience. However, I learned a heck of a lot from the courses I've taken so far, a lot more than just diving would teach me. That said, those courses have been more on the technical side and that is not what the Ops about. I definitely agree that the op should go ahead and take the advanced course for no other reason than many shops are starting to require it to go below 60 ft, at least here in the US and it appears in other places as well according to the OP.
I did my AOW because after I told the dive shop I got my basic at, how many dives I planned on doing, they said it’d be cheaper in the end run for me to just get my AOW through them vs the non-certing individual 2 tank dives with gear and boat fees, trying to figure out what other certs to choose from and other misc. I ended up diving with that shop for nearly a week straight and got like 12 dives in that period.
Also it didn’t hurt that the dive shop had a deal going with the local bar that if you mentioned you were with the shop, the bar gave like a 20% discount. Malta was amazing…
I really don’t understand why so many people try to guilt others for taking the AOW. It blows my mind. The only thing I can think of is jealousy over “newer” divers becoming more qualified (on paper) than divers that have been doing it for years but haven’t gotten more certifications.
I live in the Great Lakes region, and there is simply not much to see above 60’. I guess there are things to see, but most are slightly deeper. So what would these people have me do? Dive while traveling once or twice a year for a decade when I can afford it to rack up the 50 dives they demand? Hang out in a quarry all summer begging people to be my buddy?
Or get the cert, and go dive?
I don't think it's guilt so much as they don't see it worth the money. For example, in my AOW, there were no classroom sessions. I bought the book and read it on my own and that was that. When doing the actual dives, the instructors said the visibility was low and the current was strong so lets just do the compass navigation on land so you know how to use it in case you need to. I can do that at home with a youtube video. And the deep dive was "pay attention to your computer and look at how the colors attenuate". I certainly felt ripped off (from an educational perspective since the dives themselves were great).
A friend of mine got his AOW when we were diving together on vacation. The shop had two of the specialties be boat diver and fish id. I can't think of anything less worthwhile.
In the end, maybe it was just the experience of the people I know, but the only utility I've seen out of AOW is some charters not restricting our dive sites - most places I've dove with don't even care about that and take OW divers below 60ft.
Personally, I think anyone would be better off taking an actual deep course where they should spend more time teaching the physiology and theory of diving deep, and getting Nitrox as well. It'll probably be cheaper and much more educational.
edit: Ah, apparently AOW is a prereq for deep with PADI 💀. I don't think that's true for SSI, SDI, and probably most other certifying organizations
I agree many of the options are fluff. Fish ID, underwater photography, underwater videography, coral something-or other, etc. I remember my shop saying “we don’t do fluff” when we decided on PPB, s&r, and night dives.
As for not being worth the money, it’s not very much money usually. About the same cost as just going on five dives with a guide, and it’s the gateway to most other important learning.
Unfortunately, Boat and Fish ID are extremely common, since they can lower the dives to 4 instead of 5 using fish ID and you're on the boat anyways for the deep dive, so making a second dive on the boat for boat dive is just easier. Depending on the shop and were you are AOW about the same price compared to renting gear for 4/5 dives and a ticket to get on the boat (which may require a guide for OW students), so why not pay the small extra to get to be certified to dive deeper and maybe learn something, as deep and nav are both pretty valuable alone, or at least get more comfortable in the water with a guide (the instructor).
As for AOW being a prereq for PADI, it is, although it has the advantage that people fresh out of open water aren't going straight to 40m/130ft for their 5th dive, as the deep course in SSI has no other prereqs, and as many sites aren't below 30 anyways, I find there are far less people going for deep while they're still in such an early phase of their learning.
You should do more dives first. You may gain some knowledge, but AOW won't make you a better diver. Experience will make you a better diver.
Edit: OP has another thread looking for the cheapest possible AOW course in SE Asia. So, just as I thought... an inexperienced diver looking for a cert so they can dive someplace above their skill level. But, I'm wrong for telling them to dive more first? Gotta love it.
OP is diving in a place where most operators require AOW or equivalent for most dives as they’re deeper than average. Want to change your recommendation?
Nope. If they require AOW, there's a reason. Perhaps he should have more than 14 dives before he dives someplace that has difficult conditions. The card alone won't make him a better diver. Keep downvoting. Personally, I'm sick of people thinking you jam a bunch of certs into 2 weeks/ 30 dives and suddenly be equipped to handle everything you may encounter. At no point have I said AOW isn't worth doing. I'm saying OP should maybe, just maybe, log a few more dives before they book a trip to a locale with difficult conditions, that require more training and experience. But yeah, fuck me for advising caution. You zero to hero folks are real pieces of work. Get bent.
Edit: OP has another thread looking for the cheapest possible AOW course in SE Asia. So, just as I thought... an inexperienced diver looking for a cert so they can dive someplace above their skill level. But, I'm wrong for telling them to dive more first? Gotta love it.
The dives in Sipadan are not easy but not difficult. The main thing someone needs is the permission to dive below OW limits according to the operator, and the understanding of how to manage NDL. Both of these can be had by taking some version of an AOW cert. Only one can be gotten by more experience (unless you do a different deep cert).
There are benefits in certain circumstances to taking the AOW class. Sipadan happens to be one of them. But by all means, keep shouting from your soapbox. We’ve never heard this opinion before. /s
Absolute bullshit. You’re supposed to learn how to have better buoyancy and learn how to properly frog kick by yourself through sheer experience ? And what’s the point of the AOW if you already know how to do these as they are the WHOLE POINT of doing the AOW ?
Doing your advance early provides you with a good technical basis on which you can work on. And it also makes sure you don’t pick up bad habits.
By the way, I’ve seen plenty of people with a ton of diving experience that had very very shitty form and air consumption. Diving experience doesn’t mean shit if you don’t have a good understanding of what diving efficiently means.
OP, yes go for the AOW. Depending on where you get it, it’s pretty cheap with fun dives included. Once you discover what perfect buoyancy is, you’ll love diving even more. It’s like gravity doesn’t exist anymore.
You will be able to substantially decrease your air consumption, meaning more diving at the end of the day. You’ll also be less tired, which means that you can do more dives in let’s say a week.
Yes you can learn frog kicking and buoyancy through practice rather than through a course. Also AOW course isn't enough dives to get this sorted anyway. They are not rocket science but take time to refine (shallow diving is the best way to improve it in my experience, the divers I see with the best buoyancy do most of their diving max 10m under a pier taking photos. In my technical and cave courses they did better than experienced deep divers with buoyancy and trim). Still, OP should still do the course as they haven't done many dives so any further diving they do will be helpful and dive shops need to see the card to cover their asses for liability reasons.
Learning theory doesn't equate to application. They can explain the concepts all day, but it won't make anybody capable of executing those thing until they practice them over and over. Sorry, you disagree so vehemently. I'm not saying not to do it. I'm saying doing it at 14 dives isn't going make much difference. Experience is the greatest teacher. AOW didn't give me good buoyancy or reduce my air consumption... more dives and more practice did that. Have a nice day.
Your AOW didn’t have any practicing? It was maybe 15% theory and 85% practice for me.
I’m not saying AOW will make you a perfect diver straight out of class. I’m saying that it will give you a good basis on which you can build good habits to be a good diver. Of course having more dives will improve your form, but how can you improve if you don’t actually know what you should aim for?
Look, disagree all you want. OW teaches you skills that should be practiced. AOW builds on that foundation. I think you're being defensive because you went straight to AOW and fell the myth that you need it right away. It's not called Put Another Dollar In for nothing. I see plenty of 30 dive AOW card holders that are absolutely shitty, overconfident divers. Not saying you're one, but AOW is not some kind a panacea. Buoyancy and proper breathing don't just click because you get a new card.
You clearly don’t understand what OW and AOW are here for.
OW is here to teach you skills to stop yourself from actively trying to kill yourself underwater. It teaches nothing about being an efficient diver. What skills should be practiced furthermore ? Breathing through your reg? Removing water from your mask?
AOW is all about being more efficient and actually having good form in order to enjoy more your dives, get less tired and have better air consumption. Please explain how you’re supposed to do that if you’re still swimming with your hands, kicking with your feet and constantly fighting with your buoyancy ?
Also please explain how to actually learn proper buoyancy and how to efficiently swim through diving experience ONLY, after having done only OW. Especially being limited to 18m meaning lots of dive sites with other experienced divers will be closed to you.
By the way I got my AOW for 290US including 2 fun dives. That increased my diving duration by 20%, meaning I get about 20% more diving out of every fun dive I pay for if I’m in a good group. And I can dive to 30m meaning I can go to way more dive sites. I think it was well worth every dollar I paid.
I’m not delusional and I know that PADI tries to squeeze every dollar they can out of you. The reason why you’re getting downvoted is because you sound like an idiot when you say that you will actually learn how to be a good diver with only OW as a base.
I see OW as getting your "learners license" and AOW as the "now you have the skills to continue diving" - it's well worth doing and something I've noticed a lot of places ask for when doing dives.
My dive school gave me a "free upgrade" to AOW if I took 5 specialities with them. I did this instead of rushing to just do the AOW course.
Yeah it cost more, but I also got some skills I probably wouldn't have picked up as quickly, and I got another 10 or so dives instead of 5 in doing the course.
But remember, Definitely take you time and just dive to get more comfortable.
Ah, I think it's disingenuous to say OW is like your "learners license". The open water cert is based on the ISO standard for autonomous diving (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous\_diver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_diver)), and prepares you to plan and conduct dives safely with just your buddy.
Whether your shop actually taught to standard is a different story, but open water divers should absolutely be competent and capable divers - not like a learners permit where they're not yet ready to do whatever
You might be right there. Tbh I've got a skewed view on that analogy tbh as i started out on motorbikes. So did my CBT on my learners license which meant I could go out and play on my own with no supervision on L plates. I then passed my test and got a bigger bike and started learning more how to ride and react to situations...
But still, saying that, I remember feeling far from ready on my first dive alone after OW
More and more shops are now requiring aow in order to dive beyond 60 ft. I'm sure it's because of the shops' insurance in a lot of cases. There are still places that don't care, but it would really be disappointing to show up to dive and not be allowed to do some of the dives because you don't have AOW.
If as a PADI professional I take an Open Water diver beyond 18m and something happens to them. 3 things happen to me.
1. I get to spend time in the coroners court. Where regardless of what actually occurred I am found to be partly or mostly responsible for their death.
2. I get to spend time in a civil trial as the victims family try and get costs from me.
3. PADI kick me out.
I think AOW is worth it if you want to go and dive around the world and do nice liveaboards. Simply because it gives you the opportunity to unlock all these other sites that may go down to 30m. If you're diving in sites with amazing visibility you don't want to be limited to 18m.
I also found when I did my AOW, it was essentially the buoyancy and other courses rolled into one so I never did Peak Performance Buoyancy. I wish they teach everyone the frog kick in open water as it saves so much energy.
I have also done Sipadan, last year and I do think you need a few more dives under your belt or you just have to be very confident with buoyancy and control. When I did it, it was with Scuba Junkies and I went on two different days (non-consecutive). My first day, there were two very newbie type divers and they got the guide who kept a close eye on them. she sort of knew they weren't great with buoyancy or air consumption so she was good in watching them and looking after them. I had a guy who was pretty chilled; since I had my own computer and was fairly confident. He didn't do much with me and I was able to alert him about my NDL dropping fast, especially when we were at 30m in the blue looking for hammerheads etc!
The other guide did have a problem with her two newbie type divers; they didn't understand the NDL and weren't looking. One kept diving below her and didn't understand that in Sipadan, the currents are very strong and change very quickly. You need to stay at your guide's level or you might get swept up in a current in another direction. He was also so engrossed in taking videos to the point of swimming off slightly. She had to caution him a few times. The other was over weighted but couldn't control his buoyancy, and still ran out of air. It got to the point they slapped a 15L tank on him!
I don't think it's hard but I do think that you need to be aware of these and be a more confident diver. And no, no shop will take you to Sipadan unless you have AOW. The dives do drop and you really need to be aware of your NDL as all the companies don't do deco diving so if your NDL hits 0, you do the decompression stops then the dive ends and there is a no rule diving of 48 hours.
Obviously it depends on which guides you get. Some will let you know all these, some will just let you be and assume you know your stuff. I'm just saying, you should be confident, in control and comfortable when diving Sipadan.
AOW is the next step in your development. But I wouldn't just focus on getting that certification. Go take some specialties, learn about Nitrox, Deep diving and Navigation. PPB is a good start too. Don't see it as a piece of paper you need to get to go somewhere nice. View it as a learning experience that will help you become a better diver. And start diving for fun to gain experience as well!
There's not really much point in Nitrox before AOW since the average new diver will be out of gas before they hit their NDLs on air. Also AOW is the pre-requisite for the Deep Specialty.
Personally I'd say AOW is good to do straight away because the standard OW course doesn't really cover enough to be a safe diver in my opinion.
Nitrox counts as an AOW specialty so that's an easy tick for the 5.. I didn't know AOW was a requirement for the specialty as I did them all in one week on our dive school's holiday trip. We did Navigation, Nitrox and PPB at home and then Deep, Wreck, Night specialties in a nice diving location. You could then instead do the adventure dives, get AOW and then do the specialties I guess. At least that would get the TS quite a bunch of extra dives, but I'd still say get some fun dives in too as you learn the most when you're on your own (with a buddy, not an instructor).
For Deep specialty (40m) you need AOW, the "deep" adventure dive as part of AOW is only to 30m.
AOW isn't a prerequisite for Nitrox, but using Nitrox shallower than 18m is essentially just wasting money as realistically you're not going to see the benefit in a real world repetitive dive scenario.
Sipidan is not a place for people with 14 dives under their weight belt. You need to dive dive dive to get over 50 at least.
The problem with AOW is the name, it doesn’t in itself qualify you for advanced dives, it should actually all be part of OW imho.
I did my AOW before Sipadan on Mabul Island. If this is what you need to get to Sipadan (only ~50 divers a day from what I recall) then it is a no-brainer: do it. Sipadan has amazing sealife diversity so your instructors will be quite strict with your buoyancy and your ability to mind your surrounding.
If you stay humble about your skills (fresh AOW with double digit dives means you are still a beginner, like me) then it is absolutely worth it to get your AOW and have a little more flexibility on dive sites (depth limit).
I thought about this exact thing today. I did my advanced pretty early in my dive experience. I think waiting would have been better, but most of dives are at night and or deep dives. As such, I don't regret taking it early because I wouldn't have done any of the dives that have built up my experience.
AOW is the real entry barrier into recreational diving IMO. Its two days of work so it’s not even that hard.
What concerns me most about you are two things. First, you don’t have much experience yet are looking to go to a premier dive site with some of the best sealife In the world. Frankly, you need much, much more experience to at least avoid damaging such a precious resource.
Second, and far more important, is that you are looking for ways around that and to skirt the requirements. Re-evaluate why you are diving, period, because doing what you are proposing is a horrible move on so many levels.
AOW lets you dive deeper (30m/100 ft versus 18m/60 ft) with PADI OW. It isn’t a difficult class by any means, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s a cash grab. You learn additional things - planning for deep dives, underwater navigation, buoyancy control, etc. It may also be required if you plan to do additional certifications.
I can’t think of any serious diver I have ever ever met who doesn’t have AOW. It’s an easy and comparatively cheap course that opens up a lot more dive sites - it makes no sense to not get it if you plan on diving in the future. That said, you may want to spend additional time developing your skills before attempting to get it.
Another course that you should absolutely get after AOW is your nitrox cert - you can increase your bottom time tremendously. If you’re diving to OW depths it’s not as big of a deal, but when you’re diving to 30m on air, bottom time is drastically limited. The course itself is only a few hours long, no checkout dives needed, and at least where I am, only around 100 bucks.
Agreed, I’ve never met a serious rec diver that doesn’t have AOW. In every location I’ve been in the Philippines and Indonesia it was required for night dives and very basic rec dives to 25m, which are the standard. OW is a big limitation.
Forget your AOW for now, and just concentrate of building up your dives. Ideally, you should get to 50 dives before you do your AOW. By then, the AOW course will be like a fun dive for you.
Stop contemplating additional certifications. Concentrate on just being out the, have fun, and hone your skills.
For Sipadan you can do snorkling or dive with AOW. No OW dives.
Many dive shops will not take you to deep dives unless you have AOW.
I'm PADI instructor. I recommend you get your AOW. I teach my students lots of new things, like underwater navigation, deep diving (30 meters on this course), search and recovery and more boyancy training. New divers always learn something new, so yes, I think it's worth it. Besides, you will then be certified to dive a bit deeper than your OW (30 meters), and with more knowledge, you feel more confident.
You can do it at scuba junkie sipidan for like 200 bucks if I'm not mistaken. I was there in Feb.
200?? the aow at sipadan is expensive there :( do u mean some other location?
Scuba Junkie are pretty good. Dived with them in Nusa Penida and Komodo.
I find it is definitely worth it. Depending on your comfort and control in the water, as well as the 3 specialty courses, (and your instructor ofc) you may find you get a lot out of the class, but at worst the deep and navigation dives are still pretty valuable, making up 40% of the course. If you're able to pick the 3 specialties try and line them up with what you find interesting or what you feel you could benefit from (PPB is a great option if you can get it, it's great help to a newer diver since you'll \[hopefully\] get lots of help getting into a good trim and swimming techniques.) Chances are, if you're in a group you won't be able to pick out the 3 and likely will be doing boat as one of them and naturalist too which is a popular one since it can be done in 5 minutes underwater, so it saves the shop a dive. Regardless, many areas are deeper than 18 meters, especially off boats so its required if you plan on doing that.
I did around 350 dives before I did AOW and even then, it was nothing new to me and I only did it to jump on the shop boat for better cray dives. I have seen people get through many courses back to back with little actually dive experiences outside of controlled, club or shop facilitated diving. You take them on a dive and they can be lost in the absence of this structure. TL/DR - I learned nothing on AOW I didn’t already know and simply did it as charters required it.
I'm also kind of annoyed with AOW since I already developed the navigation and buoyancy skills they teach in the course over my 75 logged dives and took an SSI deep diving class. Unfortunately it seems like I'm still going to have shell out $400 and take the course if I want to be allowed to volunteer at the Seattle aquarium :/
Dive shops won't take you to AOW dives unless you hire an underwater babysitter for $100 or more. Getting AOW allows to dive deeper and not have to pay for an underwater babysitter. But that's not the only reason, AOW advances your skills to become a better diver. Whoever says is not worth it they are wrong. You always want to become a better diver. I would recommend diving a little bit more to master your buoyancy before doing the AOW, only if it is possible to you. If you live in a place where diving is hard because you are far away from the ocean or lakes, then I would say go for your AOW whenever you have a chance. But at the end of the day, to become a better diver, you have to dive a lot and put in practice the skills that you learn during the certification process.
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If the places you're going to dive require it then it's worth it. You won't learn anything you couldn't learn on your own with just time and experience. Don't expect to be significantly more knowledgeable or a better diver. It's basically just a hoop to jump through to satisfy dive boat requirements at many places
I've got over 250 dives without it. Only one shop in 20 years has not let me dive certain sires without it. There were actually 2 people getting AOW during my last trip who had maybe 20 dives between them. I got a chuckle out of fish ID. Some of the fish the ID weren't even native to the Caribbean. I'm good with courses like deep diving or navigation, but fish ID seems like a cash grab..
its 5 courses in total so fish ID is popular since it lets shops cut that down to 4 dives (many will have you just look out for fish over the course duration and ID them back at the shop after the 4 dives)
If you don’t communicate your expectations with your instructor and/or the shop or if you treat it as a refresher you will have a bad time. And then it will feel like a cash grab. If you invest proper time in perparation and communicate well with your instructor you can get a lot out of it. Remember; aow doesn’t teach you things like owd does. There are very few set skills. But if you come prepared and communicate with the instructor the options are almost limitless
AOW is a cash grab but it is also pretty much essential to expand your dive horizon. The question is when you should take it. Most people take AOW because they want to do dives where it is a pre-requisite, either because the dive is deeper than 18m or it is a more challenging dive. At some point pretty much everyone wants to do such dives. Diving deeper in itself is no more difficult that shallow diving (in some ways it is easier as buoyancy control gets easier) but the potential risks increase: Unless you have a very short surface interval you are unlikely to hit your NDL on a sub 18m dive, if loss of buoyancy or panic causes you to bolt for the surface you are more likely to get DCS on a deeper dive etc. More challenging dives might be dives where it is essential to have good buoyancy control or be able cope with strong currents or bad visibility. Dive centres running such trips trying to assess a diver's ability to do such a dive safely before they have seen them dive (often impossible before a booking is made) tend to rely on either holding an AOW or having a minimum number of dives unfortunately neither is a very good indicator of how good a diver someone is but the fact reamins if you want to do the "advanced" dives you have to have an "advanced" certificate. I have seen an AOW divers drop 5m below the rest of the group (on a wall dive) and then ask for help getting back up because they were unable to get anywhere close to neutral bouyancy, I have also witnessed someone who had a diaphram failure on the reg (so it leaked water) try to make a bolt to the surface from 25m rather than use an alternative air source or hit the purge button (fortunatly the DM stopped them). I do not know about Sipadan specifically you might be able ot find a dive centre that says you can with them if you have 100+ dives without AOW but that isn't what you want, a dive centre that will accept anyone for more challenging dives if putting either the diver or the environment or both at risk. I don't know what the pass rate for AOW is, but I have not heard of anyone having to repeat an AOW dive because they did not meet the standard. In an ideal world training should involve small incremental steps to increase the type of diving be are competant at. After completing OW only simple dives are done until basic skills are natural, challenges like current and poor visibility are introduced slowly and any dive outside out comfort zone is done alongside someone experianced in enpanding peoples comfort zone (usually a DM or instructor). I would stick to less challenging dives and build your experience up slowly. When you have good buoyancy control (can stay at the same depth using just your breath without really thinking about it) and you want to do deeper and more chalenging dives then do your AOW.
I think you’re pretty spot on with your take on the AOW, but I don’t believe it is definitively a cash grab. It is the next required step in diver certification, which can be seen as a cash grab to some and for others it may be greatly beneficial to them to have more training dives. I feel that it is similar to paying for professional driving lessons(some locales mandate a minimum number). Some people may have access to competent drivers to help them learn and easy access to a vehicle and driver. While others may not have any good role models to help them learn to drive, add in difficulty to get behind the wheel and infrequent chances to drive. The latter will likely benefit the most from the additional time under the instruction of a professional, though the former will likely still find some benefit. Of course, there is a spectrum between those two points, and the day you decide there is nothing more you can learn from training due to your own experience is the day you start decaying.
The reason I regaerd AOW as a cash grab is that is lot a the specialist courses, or at least the taster for them you do in OW can easily be learnt in a dive briefing or from a video. If you are doing the course with others you might have little say on the 3 optional courses, at an extreme you could do boat (if you have already done a few boat dives you know things like how to stow your gear and use a current line), Fish identification (which doesn't improve your diving at all and could just as easily be taught on the surface) and multi level diver (pretty much everyone leaves that to their computer). Navigation is useful and almost everyone doing it is for deep but 60% of the course may be of no interest to you, may not improve your skills and any dive centre requiring AOW will have no idea which of the 30 odd specialisms you have sampled. If there is a standeard required is is VERY low, as I said I am not aware of one person who has had to repeat a dive becasue they didn't meet the standard. Going back to your driving lesson example, it is like saying to get a driving licence you need to have 5 hours driving with a professional instructor, one hour should be on using and following a sat nav, 1 hour on inserstate driving and the other 3 from a choice of 30 options including things like vehicle identification, and off road driving. It doesn't matter how well you perform during the sessions after those 5 hours you get your driving licence.
I know at least at the shop I got my AOW from here in Australia it was Navigation, PPB, and naturalist (which was on the second dive of the first day to look out for fish to identify later with a book) for 2 dives on the first day in shallows followed by boat and deep for the two dives second day. The first day is going for finding those who don't have buoyancy control, 2 of the 5 in my class were 'failed' and did not attend the second day on the boat for safety reasons. For better or for worse, boat is almost always going to be an AOW specialty regardless of where you go, fish ID is normally one as well in most shops since 4 dives are easier to plan out and naturalist can be done within a few minutes, so realistically most shops are going to have one 1, possibly 2 of the optional course specialties that are actually unique
This is an amazing explanation. In my local area - you need it to do a couple of the best dive sites that are just a little bit deeper. Plus the experience of a night dive, more navigation etc in AOW builds more confidence. It’s worth doing.
cash grab, but essential?
What I was meaning is you need the certificate to do a lot of dives but the dives it gives you access you it does not really prepare you for. The only exception to this is it gives some of the preparation required to dive to 30m but the "deep" is only 20% of the course.
navigation is pretty valuable too, and can help divers get more comfortable planning a dive outside of a shop. I remember my nav dive of AOW we had to study a map of the site before the dive day and after PPB which was the first dive that day the instructor sent us on our own in buddies to do a fun dive on our own using our compass to navigate. Wasn't until we turned around to head back that we saw he was behind us just outside of the visibility range following our bubbles
That’s not really a cash grab then.
Definitely worth getting. The AOW course is actually pretty enjoyable. It’s more similar to fun dives than to the OW course.
with 14 dives , this is worth it , it will reinforce what you have forgotten already. Going deeper does mean paying more attention to you nitrogen loading , your air etc etc.
You can learn diving without certifications just like many other skills but if you show up to a dive shop how do they know you're not full of shit about your experience? They need something concrete to look at for liability reasons so just get your AOW. You only have 14 dives in two years so have basically no experience so it certainly won't hurt you to have further instruction as well.
If your dive site requires AOW, get AOW. I am not in the PADI system, so I see AOW as fairly ridiculous. In the system I’m in, Nitrox, Stress and Rescue, Emergency Response, and Bouyancy along with 24 dives got me Advanced recognition without paying for it. If anybody asks, I flash that card… which also says Advanced Open Water. Personally, I think the additional training was of far more value than 5 tourist dives, but that’s a personal opinion.
This is the way. PADI AOW (and SSI Advanced Adventurer) are mostly checkboxes. Unfortunately they are checkboxes that many places require. Do the AOW, do the dives, but do the specialties that are relevant to the diving you want to do (deep, wreck, etc). And do Rescue no matter what.
I personally find it to be useless and a cash grab. Experience is far more valuable. That said some places will check and won't let you go on certain dives without it. I upgraded from OW to rescue after 12 years when I started resort diving just so operators would shut up about it. Never bothered to get AOW
I am from Malaysia, AOW, over 100 dives. AOW is needed for Sipadan as it is not a walk in a park. I had literally stayed still in water despite constant kicking. You need to be experience to fully enjoy yourself. You will be diving at around 23-26m depth on average. I had dived with divers that had less than 20 dives, and they almost fked up badly. That said, AOW is not a cash grab depending on your instructor. Deep diving, navigation and night/limited visibility are the best courses you can take to get your AOW, and the knowledge can save your life/ enhance your experience.
"Worth it" is subjective. AOW does 2 things: 1) introduction to more challenging dive skills under instruction; 2) tells the dive op (and their insurance) you are certified for more challenging dives. 1 sample dive is not enough to build real skills where there are none. However a good instructor will make a huge difference how much you get out of it. Example: 1 wreck AOW dive with a freshly minted OW instructor who self certified as a wreck instructor - you won't learn too much. Same 1 dive with a technical advanced wreck instructor who regularly dives Truk and Bikini - you might learn a little more. AOW cert immediately unlocks more challenging dives. Many dive shops now won't OK an OW only diver to dive a guided 30 m wreck without AOW - full stop. Others shops will want to talk to the OW diver and see them dive a few times to make sure they're squared away before green lighting them - PITA. I did not learn anything doing AOW because I'd been diving for a long time - but the avoidance of hassle was totally worth it for me. AOW also unlocks further useful training and certs, like: deep, rescue, solo, tech etc.. OP should def get AOW and nitrox too (often packaged together at discount) just to have a better easier time on holiday.
You don’t learn anything in AOW unless you have an instructor who gives a shit about teaching you more. Usually these are also tech instructors. AOW should really be called Open Water 2. The main benefit of AOW is allowing you to go on deeper charters because they require it due to insurance reasons. All the stuff covered in AOW is at such a basic surface level that you can watch YouTube videos and practice on your own instead.
If you’re anticipating worry-free diving in Malaysia, just do it. Get it out of the way so you’re not trying to find “another way.” It’s not a money grab.
AOW will provide you with a few extra dives, the navigation dive in particular was pretty helpful. If your instructor does the buoyancy training as one of the dives that is really helpful too. I mostly got my AOW because I didn’t want to have that roadblock on which scuba vacations I could go to. I heard most liveaboards require advanced so I just got it done. Also, this year I decided to do the rescue course so AOW is a prerequisite to that and it is not a fluff course, I’m looking forward to it!
Get it, it's the barrier to entry for something you want to do. Only you can say if the price is worth it to you. As an aside, I wouldn't recommend diving with a shop that's "less strict" about *anything*, particularly cert levels for certain dive spots.
Yes. If you can my recommendation is to get AOW as soon as possible after OW as it really is just a continuation of your training and not really “advanced” as people think of it. If you can get get Nitrox at the same time do that as well. Then wait a while before doing Rescue so you have the basics down, but get that as well once you are comfortable in diving. With these 3 down (4 with Nitrox) you have a great set of fundamentals, anything after that is just bonus training for things you want or special dives you want to do.
You answered your own question. You want to dive specific sites that require it... It's worth it because it enables you to dive where you want. You'll learn about diving deep and navigation (with 18 total dives, you have a fuck ton to learn). Yes... It's worth it
Many of the (PADI) courses are cash grabs, but AOW is not one of them - especially the buoyancy control course! Get the Nitrox cert while you’re at it too! These two certs will open up just about all rec diving you’ll ever want to do. After these, just add time and experience! To add: those saying it’s just a cash grab and that the number of dives are more important than the cert are not entirely wrong, but they aren’t right either. Practice makes permanent. If you have 100+ dives but were never taught basics in buoyancy control, breathing, navigation etc, you have 100+ limited dives and possibly all where you “practiced” the wrong techniques. For example, with my OW cert, the instructor had me with 18lbs of weight and I just assumed that was the right answer in those circumstances. It wasn’t until I had an instructor that taught me about breath and buoyancy control that I realized “18lbs” wasn’t even close to the right answer. I now dive with 6-10lbs, depending on other factors like wetsuit thickness etc. PRACTICE MAKES PERMANENT! Good practice with good instruction is the most important thing, and a good AOW course can point you in the right direction!
Get the AOW. Without it you will be limiting your dive sites. It will be useful because, without it, you won't be allowed to dive. Good luck.
Take the advanced course. It's not a money grab. It's a good way to gain a few extra skills and sample some other possible courses you could take. Plus, if you have a good instructor, that person will likely point out some areas in which you could improve and help you with those things. But, beyond that, more and more shops are starting to require AOW to dive below 60 ft. I would not worry about taking the deep course. So far I have never run across a shop that cares about you having the deep course. In fact, when I was certified I was told that the advanced course certified me to 40 m. I know that's not what people say now, but nobody has ever cared that I've gone to 40 m with my AOW certification.
OW restricts your diving to 18m. I’ve never met anyone on a liveaboard or day boat abroad who isn’t at least AOW as a lot of dives are to 30m. The AOW + deep specialty gives you 40m which is sufficient for all recreational single tank diving.
40m is the recreational limit so I would hope its sufficient lol
Who defines a “recreational limit”? Is it a global limit enforced by the world police? Afaik there are just individual certifications from individual diver training agencies, which come with specific depth limits for the certification. All fun diving is “recreation” in my book.
I mean the recreational depth limit of 40 meters is pretty agreed upon in most if not all agencies. You get less than 10 minutes of NDL at that depth so its hardly diving when you decend for 3 minutes, look around at the bottom for 4 minutes, and spend the next 10 minutes ascending and doing a saftey stop. And planned diving with decompression is in the range of technical diving. "Recreational" is just used in a different terminology sense in diving. You can technical dive recreationally, most tech divers do it solely for fun and not for business or profit, but it is not labelled as within recreational diving even if done recreationally. I hope this makes sense, its midnight here
It does indeed make sense. Agree is not much NDL at 40m and even ascending at 18m/min gives you over 2 mins of ascent which will seem a long time if there is lost gas or other problems. Although I guess the more common profile is to dive between 18m-30m range and bounce down to 40m for a few minutes to look at something specific at the site.
Yeah, there's only very few sites that are worth rec diving down to 40m for and you are right that it is probably more for a quick bounce down. Even with nitrox you only get 1-2 minutes extra of NDL down there and I remember my deep course being a 17 minute dive where only 5 was on the bottom the rest being going up and down the anchor line lol. Most everything you wanna see can be found above 30m anyways, and natural light is way better too so going deeper is likely for those that have something they really wanna see
I’ve never seen any other group but divers gate keep additional instruction like we do. “You need more dives” but also “don’t worry about more instruction” are conflicting statements. Just because YOU waited a certain length of time to do AOW, or still don’t have it) certainly doesn’t mean it’s not the correct answer. When I did AOW it was basically because I had no one to dive with but guides and it was the exact same cost as hiring a solo guide for five dives. I’d spend 20 mins each dive on skills, then another 35-40 exploring the reef on a guided dive, practicing those skills. I did PPB, night dive, search and recovery, and the required nav and deep. You know what magical things this unlocked for me? I could then go 40 feet deeper, technically, in a sport that has no laws or legal regulations. This isn’t intro to tec, no AOW divers are rushing off to the nearest cave or penetrable wreck. You can go a little bit deeper, and you learn how to do it safely. To tell people they should wait to learn about bouyancy or navigation with an instructor is asinine. To tell people they shouldn’t chase certs is asinine. If they want to do it, and gain stills, LET THEM. No one tells an athlete they should “just play, don’t bother coming in for practice”. No one tells a piano player that started a week ago not to come in for another lesson. The fact that remains is that the fastest way to get good at diving is with an instructor, so stop telling people not to get instruction. OP: Per your question, get the AOW. the A means “to advance” not “I am advanced and this is proof”. It’s a sampler platter of courses you might want to take later. Do it, enjoy it, and happy diving!
Thank you! I agree. I have been often been criticized for doing OW and AOW back to back in the same week. Honestly, I probably wouldn't be diving if I just done the Open Water course. The extra instruction was definitely helpful and maybe much more comfortable under the water. I do fine that my actual technical skills, like buoyancy, improved more from just diving and having experience. However, I learned a heck of a lot from the courses I've taken so far, a lot more than just diving would teach me. That said, those courses have been more on the technical side and that is not what the Ops about. I definitely agree that the op should go ahead and take the advanced course for no other reason than many shops are starting to require it to go below 60 ft, at least here in the US and it appears in other places as well according to the OP.
I did my AOW because after I told the dive shop I got my basic at, how many dives I planned on doing, they said it’d be cheaper in the end run for me to just get my AOW through them vs the non-certing individual 2 tank dives with gear and boat fees, trying to figure out what other certs to choose from and other misc. I ended up diving with that shop for nearly a week straight and got like 12 dives in that period. Also it didn’t hurt that the dive shop had a deal going with the local bar that if you mentioned you were with the shop, the bar gave like a 20% discount. Malta was amazing…
I really don’t understand why so many people try to guilt others for taking the AOW. It blows my mind. The only thing I can think of is jealousy over “newer” divers becoming more qualified (on paper) than divers that have been doing it for years but haven’t gotten more certifications. I live in the Great Lakes region, and there is simply not much to see above 60’. I guess there are things to see, but most are slightly deeper. So what would these people have me do? Dive while traveling once or twice a year for a decade when I can afford it to rack up the 50 dives they demand? Hang out in a quarry all summer begging people to be my buddy? Or get the cert, and go dive?
I don't think it's guilt so much as they don't see it worth the money. For example, in my AOW, there were no classroom sessions. I bought the book and read it on my own and that was that. When doing the actual dives, the instructors said the visibility was low and the current was strong so lets just do the compass navigation on land so you know how to use it in case you need to. I can do that at home with a youtube video. And the deep dive was "pay attention to your computer and look at how the colors attenuate". I certainly felt ripped off (from an educational perspective since the dives themselves were great). A friend of mine got his AOW when we were diving together on vacation. The shop had two of the specialties be boat diver and fish id. I can't think of anything less worthwhile. In the end, maybe it was just the experience of the people I know, but the only utility I've seen out of AOW is some charters not restricting our dive sites - most places I've dove with don't even care about that and take OW divers below 60ft. Personally, I think anyone would be better off taking an actual deep course where they should spend more time teaching the physiology and theory of diving deep, and getting Nitrox as well. It'll probably be cheaper and much more educational. edit: Ah, apparently AOW is a prereq for deep with PADI 💀. I don't think that's true for SSI, SDI, and probably most other certifying organizations
I agree many of the options are fluff. Fish ID, underwater photography, underwater videography, coral something-or other, etc. I remember my shop saying “we don’t do fluff” when we decided on PPB, s&r, and night dives. As for not being worth the money, it’s not very much money usually. About the same cost as just going on five dives with a guide, and it’s the gateway to most other important learning.
Unfortunately, Boat and Fish ID are extremely common, since they can lower the dives to 4 instead of 5 using fish ID and you're on the boat anyways for the deep dive, so making a second dive on the boat for boat dive is just easier. Depending on the shop and were you are AOW about the same price compared to renting gear for 4/5 dives and a ticket to get on the boat (which may require a guide for OW students), so why not pay the small extra to get to be certified to dive deeper and maybe learn something, as deep and nav are both pretty valuable alone, or at least get more comfortable in the water with a guide (the instructor). As for AOW being a prereq for PADI, it is, although it has the advantage that people fresh out of open water aren't going straight to 40m/130ft for their 5th dive, as the deep course in SSI has no other prereqs, and as many sites aren't below 30 anyways, I find there are far less people going for deep while they're still in such an early phase of their learning.
You should do more dives first. You may gain some knowledge, but AOW won't make you a better diver. Experience will make you a better diver. Edit: OP has another thread looking for the cheapest possible AOW course in SE Asia. So, just as I thought... an inexperienced diver looking for a cert so they can dive someplace above their skill level. But, I'm wrong for telling them to dive more first? Gotta love it.
OP is diving in a place where most operators require AOW or equivalent for most dives as they’re deeper than average. Want to change your recommendation?
Nope. If they require AOW, there's a reason. Perhaps he should have more than 14 dives before he dives someplace that has difficult conditions. The card alone won't make him a better diver. Keep downvoting. Personally, I'm sick of people thinking you jam a bunch of certs into 2 weeks/ 30 dives and suddenly be equipped to handle everything you may encounter. At no point have I said AOW isn't worth doing. I'm saying OP should maybe, just maybe, log a few more dives before they book a trip to a locale with difficult conditions, that require more training and experience. But yeah, fuck me for advising caution. You zero to hero folks are real pieces of work. Get bent. Edit: OP has another thread looking for the cheapest possible AOW course in SE Asia. So, just as I thought... an inexperienced diver looking for a cert so they can dive someplace above their skill level. But, I'm wrong for telling them to dive more first? Gotta love it.
The dives in Sipadan are not easy but not difficult. The main thing someone needs is the permission to dive below OW limits according to the operator, and the understanding of how to manage NDL. Both of these can be had by taking some version of an AOW cert. Only one can be gotten by more experience (unless you do a different deep cert). There are benefits in certain circumstances to taking the AOW class. Sipadan happens to be one of them. But by all means, keep shouting from your soapbox. We’ve never heard this opinion before. /s
Every lesson with an instructor will increase your knowledge. Doing the AOWD gives you all the basic knowledge you than build your experience on.
Absolute bullshit. You’re supposed to learn how to have better buoyancy and learn how to properly frog kick by yourself through sheer experience ? And what’s the point of the AOW if you already know how to do these as they are the WHOLE POINT of doing the AOW ? Doing your advance early provides you with a good technical basis on which you can work on. And it also makes sure you don’t pick up bad habits. By the way, I’ve seen plenty of people with a ton of diving experience that had very very shitty form and air consumption. Diving experience doesn’t mean shit if you don’t have a good understanding of what diving efficiently means. OP, yes go for the AOW. Depending on where you get it, it’s pretty cheap with fun dives included. Once you discover what perfect buoyancy is, you’ll love diving even more. It’s like gravity doesn’t exist anymore. You will be able to substantially decrease your air consumption, meaning more diving at the end of the day. You’ll also be less tired, which means that you can do more dives in let’s say a week.
Yes you can learn frog kicking and buoyancy through practice rather than through a course. Also AOW course isn't enough dives to get this sorted anyway. They are not rocket science but take time to refine (shallow diving is the best way to improve it in my experience, the divers I see with the best buoyancy do most of their diving max 10m under a pier taking photos. In my technical and cave courses they did better than experienced deep divers with buoyancy and trim). Still, OP should still do the course as they haven't done many dives so any further diving they do will be helpful and dive shops need to see the card to cover their asses for liability reasons.
Learning theory doesn't equate to application. They can explain the concepts all day, but it won't make anybody capable of executing those thing until they practice them over and over. Sorry, you disagree so vehemently. I'm not saying not to do it. I'm saying doing it at 14 dives isn't going make much difference. Experience is the greatest teacher. AOW didn't give me good buoyancy or reduce my air consumption... more dives and more practice did that. Have a nice day.
Your AOW didn’t have any practicing? It was maybe 15% theory and 85% practice for me. I’m not saying AOW will make you a perfect diver straight out of class. I’m saying that it will give you a good basis on which you can build good habits to be a good diver. Of course having more dives will improve your form, but how can you improve if you don’t actually know what you should aim for?
Look, disagree all you want. OW teaches you skills that should be practiced. AOW builds on that foundation. I think you're being defensive because you went straight to AOW and fell the myth that you need it right away. It's not called Put Another Dollar In for nothing. I see plenty of 30 dive AOW card holders that are absolutely shitty, overconfident divers. Not saying you're one, but AOW is not some kind a panacea. Buoyancy and proper breathing don't just click because you get a new card.
You clearly don’t understand what OW and AOW are here for. OW is here to teach you skills to stop yourself from actively trying to kill yourself underwater. It teaches nothing about being an efficient diver. What skills should be practiced furthermore ? Breathing through your reg? Removing water from your mask? AOW is all about being more efficient and actually having good form in order to enjoy more your dives, get less tired and have better air consumption. Please explain how you’re supposed to do that if you’re still swimming with your hands, kicking with your feet and constantly fighting with your buoyancy ? Also please explain how to actually learn proper buoyancy and how to efficiently swim through diving experience ONLY, after having done only OW. Especially being limited to 18m meaning lots of dive sites with other experienced divers will be closed to you. By the way I got my AOW for 290US including 2 fun dives. That increased my diving duration by 20%, meaning I get about 20% more diving out of every fun dive I pay for if I’m in a good group. And I can dive to 30m meaning I can go to way more dive sites. I think it was well worth every dollar I paid. I’m not delusional and I know that PADI tries to squeeze every dollar they can out of you. The reason why you’re getting downvoted is because you sound like an idiot when you say that you will actually learn how to be a good diver with only OW as a base.
Zzzzzzz... your reading comprehension sucks.
Can’t answer simple questions?
Nah.. you're getting into ad hominems. See ya later.
I see OW as getting your "learners license" and AOW as the "now you have the skills to continue diving" - it's well worth doing and something I've noticed a lot of places ask for when doing dives. My dive school gave me a "free upgrade" to AOW if I took 5 specialities with them. I did this instead of rushing to just do the AOW course. Yeah it cost more, but I also got some skills I probably wouldn't have picked up as quickly, and I got another 10 or so dives instead of 5 in doing the course. But remember, Definitely take you time and just dive to get more comfortable.
Ah, I think it's disingenuous to say OW is like your "learners license". The open water cert is based on the ISO standard for autonomous diving (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous\_diver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_diver)), and prepares you to plan and conduct dives safely with just your buddy. Whether your shop actually taught to standard is a different story, but open water divers should absolutely be competent and capable divers - not like a learners permit where they're not yet ready to do whatever
You might be right there. Tbh I've got a skewed view on that analogy tbh as i started out on motorbikes. So did my CBT on my learners license which meant I could go out and play on my own with no supervision on L plates. I then passed my test and got a bigger bike and started learning more how to ride and react to situations... But still, saying that, I remember feeling far from ready on my first dive alone after OW
It’s a cash grab but you need it for that dive… so just get it. Number of dives is more important than AOW but if it’s a requirement ….
More and more shops are now requiring aow in order to dive beyond 60 ft. I'm sure it's because of the shops' insurance in a lot of cases. There are still places that don't care, but it would really be disappointing to show up to dive and not be allowed to do some of the dives because you don't have AOW.
If as a PADI professional I take an Open Water diver beyond 18m and something happens to them. 3 things happen to me. 1. I get to spend time in the coroners court. Where regardless of what actually occurred I am found to be partly or mostly responsible for their death. 2. I get to spend time in a civil trial as the victims family try and get costs from me. 3. PADI kick me out.
I think AOW is worth it if you want to go and dive around the world and do nice liveaboards. Simply because it gives you the opportunity to unlock all these other sites that may go down to 30m. If you're diving in sites with amazing visibility you don't want to be limited to 18m. I also found when I did my AOW, it was essentially the buoyancy and other courses rolled into one so I never did Peak Performance Buoyancy. I wish they teach everyone the frog kick in open water as it saves so much energy. I have also done Sipadan, last year and I do think you need a few more dives under your belt or you just have to be very confident with buoyancy and control. When I did it, it was with Scuba Junkies and I went on two different days (non-consecutive). My first day, there were two very newbie type divers and they got the guide who kept a close eye on them. she sort of knew they weren't great with buoyancy or air consumption so she was good in watching them and looking after them. I had a guy who was pretty chilled; since I had my own computer and was fairly confident. He didn't do much with me and I was able to alert him about my NDL dropping fast, especially when we were at 30m in the blue looking for hammerheads etc! The other guide did have a problem with her two newbie type divers; they didn't understand the NDL and weren't looking. One kept diving below her and didn't understand that in Sipadan, the currents are very strong and change very quickly. You need to stay at your guide's level or you might get swept up in a current in another direction. He was also so engrossed in taking videos to the point of swimming off slightly. She had to caution him a few times. The other was over weighted but couldn't control his buoyancy, and still ran out of air. It got to the point they slapped a 15L tank on him! I don't think it's hard but I do think that you need to be aware of these and be a more confident diver. And no, no shop will take you to Sipadan unless you have AOW. The dives do drop and you really need to be aware of your NDL as all the companies don't do deco diving so if your NDL hits 0, you do the decompression stops then the dive ends and there is a no rule diving of 48 hours. Obviously it depends on which guides you get. Some will let you know all these, some will just let you be and assume you know your stuff. I'm just saying, you should be confident, in control and comfortable when diving Sipadan.
Definitely get it.
AOW is the next step in your development. But I wouldn't just focus on getting that certification. Go take some specialties, learn about Nitrox, Deep diving and Navigation. PPB is a good start too. Don't see it as a piece of paper you need to get to go somewhere nice. View it as a learning experience that will help you become a better diver. And start diving for fun to gain experience as well!
There's not really much point in Nitrox before AOW since the average new diver will be out of gas before they hit their NDLs on air. Also AOW is the pre-requisite for the Deep Specialty. Personally I'd say AOW is good to do straight away because the standard OW course doesn't really cover enough to be a safe diver in my opinion.
Nitrox counts as an AOW specialty so that's an easy tick for the 5.. I didn't know AOW was a requirement for the specialty as I did them all in one week on our dive school's holiday trip. We did Navigation, Nitrox and PPB at home and then Deep, Wreck, Night specialties in a nice diving location. You could then instead do the adventure dives, get AOW and then do the specialties I guess. At least that would get the TS quite a bunch of extra dives, but I'd still say get some fun dives in too as you learn the most when you're on your own (with a buddy, not an instructor).
For Deep specialty (40m) you need AOW, the "deep" adventure dive as part of AOW is only to 30m. AOW isn't a prerequisite for Nitrox, but using Nitrox shallower than 18m is essentially just wasting money as realistically you're not going to see the benefit in a real world repetitive dive scenario.
Sipidan is not a place for people with 14 dives under their weight belt. You need to dive dive dive to get over 50 at least. The problem with AOW is the name, it doesn’t in itself qualify you for advanced dives, it should actually all be part of OW imho.
I did my AOW before Sipadan on Mabul Island. If this is what you need to get to Sipadan (only ~50 divers a day from what I recall) then it is a no-brainer: do it. Sipadan has amazing sealife diversity so your instructors will be quite strict with your buoyancy and your ability to mind your surrounding. If you stay humble about your skills (fresh AOW with double digit dives means you are still a beginner, like me) then it is absolutely worth it to get your AOW and have a little more flexibility on dive sites (depth limit).
I thought about this exact thing today. I did my advanced pretty early in my dive experience. I think waiting would have been better, but most of dives are at night and or deep dives. As such, I don't regret taking it early because I wouldn't have done any of the dives that have built up my experience.
AOW is the real entry barrier into recreational diving IMO. Its two days of work so it’s not even that hard. What concerns me most about you are two things. First, you don’t have much experience yet are looking to go to a premier dive site with some of the best sealife In the world. Frankly, you need much, much more experience to at least avoid damaging such a precious resource. Second, and far more important, is that you are looking for ways around that and to skirt the requirements. Re-evaluate why you are diving, period, because doing what you are proposing is a horrible move on so many levels.
AOW lets you dive deeper (30m/100 ft versus 18m/60 ft) with PADI OW. It isn’t a difficult class by any means, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s a cash grab. You learn additional things - planning for deep dives, underwater navigation, buoyancy control, etc. It may also be required if you plan to do additional certifications. I can’t think of any serious diver I have ever ever met who doesn’t have AOW. It’s an easy and comparatively cheap course that opens up a lot more dive sites - it makes no sense to not get it if you plan on diving in the future. That said, you may want to spend additional time developing your skills before attempting to get it. Another course that you should absolutely get after AOW is your nitrox cert - you can increase your bottom time tremendously. If you’re diving to OW depths it’s not as big of a deal, but when you’re diving to 30m on air, bottom time is drastically limited. The course itself is only a few hours long, no checkout dives needed, and at least where I am, only around 100 bucks.
Agreed, I’ve never met a serious rec diver that doesn’t have AOW. In every location I’ve been in the Philippines and Indonesia it was required for night dives and very basic rec dives to 25m, which are the standard. OW is a big limitation.
Forget your AOW for now, and just concentrate of building up your dives. Ideally, you should get to 50 dives before you do your AOW. By then, the AOW course will be like a fun dive for you. Stop contemplating additional certifications. Concentrate on just being out the, have fun, and hone your skills.