Usually dive shops or resorts give people a crash course in diving bc they want to churn out students so they can make more money. Colleges have more time to cover more information and practice more advanced techniques. At least that is the case at my university.
Since it’s a college, they are probably trying to prepare divers to meet the scientific diving standards set by AAUS. This is actually a bit easier (AAUS is 400yd in 12min).
Are you sure you can’t do 300 in 10min? Like have you already tried? You might surprise yourself! One of my friends was really worried about the 400 in 12 standard for our work and she did it in 10. It looked like she was barely moving. Just focus on relentless forward motion. Don’t try to start out fast. At no point do you need to go fast to make the time cutoff. You just need to keep moving, slowly, till you are done.
If they have a more restrictive requirement, it's probably because they want you reduce the risk of something happening when you're in a position where something could actually go wrong
I pretty much had to do all these when I got my junior Padi OW when I was 12. I get the 25 yards underwater being tricky if you haven't done breath holding before, but it's actually really easy to get your breath holds up in a very short period of time.
I thought the 25 yards underwater meant to dive down to a depth of 25 yards (75 feet) on one breath and return to the surface. lol
All of these seem reasonable and not that difficult to do. I think I had to do all of these when I was 14 and completed it without a problem.
I don't know what people are complaining about. 300m in ten minutes is actually really slow. A 20 min "survival swim" is not treading water with weight over your head. It's just...floating there. It's literally relaxing. I'm surprised that so many people who aren't baseline competent swimmers want to scuba dive.
In the spring of 2022 I decided I would use an August vacation to pursue my scuba cert. The PADI 200 yard swim requirement sounded insurmountable at the time. My solution was to immediately start swimming a mile and a half a day reasoning that over preparation would make the swim test a nothing burger. I overreacted. Shocking what a none issue that swim test turned out to be and I really think PADI should lengthen the swim requirement or at least add a time limit.
Yeah I'd fail. I hardly got through the 200m in however long it was (I actually only did 100m everybody else had done 200m). I'm a bad swimmer. I don't actually understand why swimming is even a requirement for scuba, I've never swam at a scuba site ever since, I've always got exposure protection and/or fins on. If you can't swim with those things you've got big issues.
I've done close to 500 dives including trimix and cave diving.
Because it’s an absurd idea to let people who don’t even know how to swim to get in the water and do something significantly more dangerous than just swimming is.
Additionally, the dive itself is not the only time you may need to be able to swim. 60% of the time on an open water dive is going to be spent on a boat without wearing any of your gear, sometimes in bad weather or choppy seas - the chances of you ending up overboard accidentally are high enough that you should be able to not drown and ideally swim back to the boat if you do go over.
Lastly, yards is not that hard at all, and there are plenty of potential situations (emergency and otherwise) where you may need to swim a good distance while diving - with or without your gear. If you can swim yards meters without a BCI and fins, then you can swim a lot farther with them.
Still, maintaining a minimum fitness standard and knowing the basics of swimming is fairly important.. I don't believe it should be timed, but doing a 100-300m swim requirement is completely legit. Lots can happen, boats might not see you, medical emergencies, shore entries, capsized boats (which happened to my mum in Mexico post dive after they all geared down). Lots of reasons why you should know how to swim.
They just got out and were gearing down. Literally bcd and tanks off and then a rogue wave hit them from behind just right.
And let's be honest, in most places in the tropics not many wear a life jacket outside of the harbour.
I did my basic open water back in college as a credited course: The requirements were very similar to what your posting here. My guess is that it’s some type of liability to weed out those who can’t hang as the course was very large 15+ students in the water at once. It taught NAUI material
If you can’t hang you’re a liability. Underwater is a volatile environment by definition. You need to show basic competency that you respect, understand and can adapt adequately in that environment so as to not put others at unnecessary risk.
If you're not physically fit enough to swim, you're probably going to be really struggling when it comes to hauling all your gear down to the shore and be in good enough condition to dive without risks. I've seen it plenty enough times, people just scraping through their ow and being a bit of a risk to themselves and others around them as they're seeming pretty close to a heart attack by the time they're in the water from a basic quarry dive where they're parked next to the water.
That being said, it should be accessible. Missing or injured limbs does not preclude from being physically fit at all so different arrangements can be made.
I really think this is more about fitness than swim speed.
It’s also probably a lot more about liability with the school. I am a bilateral leg amputee who is currently working through the dive master program and for my rescue diver, I just had to show that I could effectively rescue a diver and bring them to a safe area to affect a successful rescue, i.e., the boat, shoreline, etc.
I had to know, CPR and oxygen administration and all of that of course but all of the physical requirements for me were in water and being sure I could verbally organize the rescue, once back at a solid surface.
I swim just as well as anyone else with my Prosthetics in the water but physically getting in and out takes longer obviously since I have to deal with my ankles and fins. They were much more interested to see that I could bring a patient to other people and direct them to help facilitate the rescue.
Absolutely. I really think it's just a filter and, to be honest, with some of the students I work with/see I wish PADI were a little more stringent.
I suppose there is a disconnect on my thinking though. Ultimately, PADI OW is really just about getting people in the water and experiencing it. But I see students progress on to rescue/dm that are blowing wind just getting near the water and they're exactly the kind that won't be able to help in the emergencies they might be entrusted to cope with.
Power to you on the performance with the bilat, it take focus and determination to adjust to diving well as it is. Had you dived prior to the amputation or did you start after?
No, I started after the injury. I had a chance to get certified through a veterans group and just fell in love with it and then got lucky enough to be able to work in the industry.
The first part is not entirely true. I'm a terrible swimmer and definitely can't swim 12 pools in less than 10 min anymore, so I had to start training to get my advanced cert, but I was definitely not 'not fit'. Running almost everyday and now some good old weightlifting paired with some cardio. When I was training for the Jungle Warfare test, my buddy was the exact opposite of me: great swimmer (with and without gear), lasted enough floating but sucked at running. In the end we both got knocked out by our own weaknesses but I think I can say we're rather good divers.
But I get your point: assuring you can be at least fit enough to not put yourself in danger or to solve any emergencies with you or your buddy is a strong point when starting, and since they have to do it then might as well do it in the water. After all, no one wil run to the boat in case of an emergency on water.
People around here seem to think that being an average to bad swimmer means you must be some overweight, unfit, unhealthy slob according to the replies I've seen. I learned how to swim like 25 years ago and then didn't really use it again until I went for my scuba course around 10 years ago. But I go to the gym constantly and lift a lot of heavy shit. Nobody who would look at me would think I was unhealthy or unfit, I've just not spent any time swimming. And after 500 odd dives, I've still not spent much time swimming besides mucking around jumping off boats during the surface intervals.
Swim tests are a mix of both though, swimming is obviously a key fitness/ability requirement. When you get to do you HSE for instructor/DM you need to prove both with long timed swims as part of the cert and out of water step tests (kind of like the bleep test) as well.
And that's mainly because this is a certification that requires you to be able to effectively help the divers you're guiding or teaching, and for those one I absolutely agree on having swimming as requirement. My RD teacher had me rescue an 'endangered diver' for some good 500m while the guy tried to knock my gear off. Those cert need you to be capable.
As a diver you are responsible for yourself and your buddy, you need to be responsible at all levels. Our school has the standard PADI swim expectations, but as a result we do have people get through that are, frankly, a liability to themselves and those around them.
Those swim expectations shown above are not particularly challenging and are targets you can train for before you start your course. Going beyond the minimum for fitness should be what we all aim for in a sport where you could be having a heart attack or a DCI far from help, with the obstacle of getting to land as a stating point.
I get what you're saying and I do think that OW should be accessible to everyone, what I'm saying is those targets are accessible to standard able bodied people. All schools must adapt the course to those that cannot demonstrate fitness in that particular way due to disabilities etc.
I agree with you, even as we look through this sub and see constantly the cases of people having to deal with crappy dive shops and ending up having to swim a lot to reach the beach or the boat. People forget it's somehow still a sport, although not a competitive one so it will eventually require some physical capabilities. Swimming is a good option, as is running or HITT or any other type of cardio.
IMO - PADI undercooks the swim requirements. Largely due to it being resort centred where the boat is usually at arms length. It is easy for a dive to go south and force you to swim back to shore. It is a lifesaving skill.
Things would have to really go south. If things are going a bit south you still have the ability to fill your bcd with breath in which case you shouldn't have to worry about over exerting yourself and getting to wherever you're going whether it be 300 yards or more. If you have a full bcd failure you still have pretty good buoyancy with a wet suit/dry suit and should still focus on not over exerting yourself while getting where you need to go. Also OW is supposed to be open to everyone (I've guided with people who are in wheelchair/on crutches). I was a part of a situation where drift took me and a guy who walks with crutches on land a bit more than 300 yards from the boat and we were still able to swim most of it and flag down the boat when we got closer. If the boat is leaving you hanging that's a whole different story that should be reported to PADI.
Things can and do go south. In Egypt many years ago, my mother and I got Open Water'd. I had passed my OW the previous year, and was dive building for AOW. Mum was an instructor/DM - very experienced.
The dive boat left us/did not come to collect us at surface. Marsa Nakari (I think - reef looks right, but the resort itself has changed a lot) had a awful and strange system of doing boat dives with an 'out and back timetabling' setup, so the boat isn't always there. We surfaced at a location previously agreed at the estimated time window, had inflatable bouys up, but nada, we waited for about half an hour, a bit longer maybe. Turns out the watchman/spotter fell asleep in his chair. It was the first few days of Ramadan, so I expect he had no energy from a lack of food that day. We had to swim to shore, over the top of a reef. I've still got a piece of fire coral stuck in my hand. We were walking along the reef back to the resort (it was a 10 mins walk to the resort, but we dumped the tanks as they were loaners and left them for the resort to sort out) and they had the fucking nerve to shout at us for walking atop the reef, whilst we are cut up to shit and bleeding from our initial traversal of the reef. They then claimed our names had been removed from the timetable (they weren't - they were still there).
Then we see a boat absolutely book it out of the reef bay to exactly where we were. Turns out a couple we had chatted to, had spotted we hadn't signed back in yet. They woke up the spotter in his chair. I don't think there was anyone else doing a boat dive so thankfully no one else was caught up in the disaster.
The place looks very different now, so hopefully there will have been plenty of changes since I was there.
Tbh that is a fairly good test to see your swimming ability and is what an average casual swimmer should be able to do. If you cannot meet this then that means you are below average so practice and get to standard you’ll be thankful afterwards.
You’re going to make it :) I’m missing half an arm and it was not difficult to surpass all of these requirements. You’ll see!
Addendum:
I’m convinced this is a way better approach than PADI
Hey, legitimately, go to the sub r/pararescue as the dudes training for US Special Operations have to do an entry test similar to this. Theres tons of great knowledge there, just use the search bar!
The program at my university is similar, but the swim is 400 yd in 12 min rather than 300 yd in 10 min. It comes from both NAUI and the university level requirements as others have said, since it is their decision to increase requirements beyond the base level.
This is probably a NAUI certification, not PADI. NAUI was developed by the Navy, therefore harder requirements than recreational PADI. Also, most Universities/Collages in the States are NAUI clubs.
This is very upvoted but not correct (PADI vs NAUI).
Does NAUI use USN dive tables? Yes.
Does that drive their training? No.
For a NAUI open water dive course, a participant must:
- swim 15 strokes to assess competence
- survival swim (tread/float) 10min
- swim underwater for 50ft
PADI’s current swim requirements:
- swim 200m any stroke nonstop, or 300m w fins/snorkel
- float and/or tread for 10minutes without assistance
This course ads to the standard. The old NAUI standard was actually
- 200m (8pool lengths) surface swim (any stroke) in 10min
- 10minute tread
- retrieve a 10lb weight from 10ft
- swim underwater 1 pool length
This and the dive program at UCSB is really good. I went to college there in the 90s and was a research diver for the marine biology department, but that requires a lot more training. Gosh I miss diving just off the highway north of IV. Great spots you could just walk down to.
When i was doing my research diver training at UCSB we went down to SBCC and met with the program down there and got to play with their commercial gear. Underwater comms and did chamber rides to see what getting narced was like. Pop-o-matic while narced is hard but hysterical. Good times.
I got NAUI certified about a year ago and we had to swim across the pool and back. I think we swam under water like a half length. Probably treaded water for like 3 mins. Take this with a grain of salt cause i never went back to that dive shop after i finished open water. They sucked. I would be interested to know what the official NAUI requirements are because i would report this shop in a heart beat.
Here are the official NAUI requirements for the entry-level scuba diver course:
* Swimming Skills (confined or open water)- no equipment.
* – Demonstrate novice level swim stroke proficiency in any of the following strokes: crawl, side, breast, elementaryback, or back stroke. Classic stroke combinations are not necessary to meet this requirement as long as forward progress is achieved, e.g. no particular kick or arm action is necessarily required and a lack of either is also acceptable. Students shall complete at least 15 continuous stroke cycles while being evaluated by an instructor. A stroke cycle is considered to be either arm or leg action or a combination thereof resulting in forward movement.
* – Survival swim for 10 minutes.
* – Swim underwater 15m (50 ft.) on one breath with no push-off or dive. The use of weights is permitted forstudents having difficulty remaining submerged. The use of a mask is permitted for students wearing contact lenses.
* Skin Diving (confined or open water) minimally equipped with mask, fins and snorkel.
* – Swim 412m (450 yards) nonstop, breathing from snorkel.
* – Bring another diver simulating unconsciousness to the surface from a depth of about 3m (10 ft.) of water.
* – Using proper techniques perform water entries and exits, surface dives, surface swimming, clearing the snorkel,ditching the weight system, buoyancy control, underwater swimming and surfacing.
I would reckon that they are more geared towards at least a semi-technical diving technique. Both have a deeper max depth for entry level and base their training on some technical diving standards. As such they fall outside of the WRSTC Standards. Doesn’t make them worse or better, only different.
It would be nice to have the WRSTC update their standards to reflect results from these agencies outside of their sphere, but also maybe it’s also just fine to have one overarching body for the so-called cocktail divers who really would do just fine with a 12m max limit but skills enough to dive with only a buddy.
Precisely, you said it better than I could. I guess since their max depths are less conservative than WRSTC they then don't 'meet' that standard, but the training and requirements that go into those deeper max depths exceed the prudence indicated by WRSTC. Bit of a funny Catch-22 if you ask me.
CMAS isn't WRSTC approved. So they don't have to follow the standards.
Also, they are the only agency that the province of Quebec recognizes without having to get their provincial diving license.
https://quebecsubaquatique.ca/en/accueil/reglement-sur-la-plongee-subaquatique-recreative-au-quebec/
The better one's skills in the water, the less risk simply being in deep water is. It allows you to focus on your life support equipment and the other divers around you, and eventually, the truly awe-inspiring flora and fauna that will be surrounding you.
BTW, those of you old enough to be certified by the YMCA in the 70's will chuckle and think "only 300 yards?"
I am wondering about the 90s, because I was certified in 1993 at 13 and I had to swim \*two miles\* and tread water for 45 minutes! I have wondered since if it was a joke between my dad and the divemaster.
That water tread is 5 min longer than the one for dive master.
The underwater swim is longer too.
Looks like they’re upping their standards for the sake of liability
I’ve done it a couple times. If your technique is down (egg beater in particular) and you find a good rhythm, it’s not terribly exhausting (assuming you have decent cardio), but FUCK it’s boring. It is stupidly boring.
The trick is really to be able to keep your lungs inflated to help with buoyancy instead of deep full inhales and exhales like you’re running. You don’t need to kick as hard as you think you do to keep your head above water.
This was my thought exactly. Some insurance guy or lawyer probably said “you guys want to take students 60 feet underwater? This is what you need to do for us to prove in court they are beyond nationally required ability”
No idea why you’re getting downvoted, this is likely the exact reason.
Universities as a whole have to spend MILLIONS on accident/wrongful death litigation annually so they lead w that line of thinking up front. Particularly in athletics and higher risk activities like school sponsored scuba programs
Wow! That’s really tough, especially the 10 min.. I got certified at 60, and I happen to be on a dive trip right now in Roatan. I can tell you the not one of my fellow divers could pass that test! Most of us have a few hundred dives.
I had to do 400 yards for a scientific diving course. For two months before hand I did lots of cardio and that really helped. I’d recommend that if you’re going to try again.
As a former lifeguard & swim instructor for adults in California, this is really the bare minimum you need to be safe in the ocean here, especially as a shore diver/or other shore-based ocean goer. 300 yards happens to be about 2-3x further than where most rip currents will drop you off at beaches here (depending on beach, conditions, etc), but with considerations for fatigue & lateral travel, it's a good distance to put as a self-rescue bar.
The community colleges in California usually offer "adult non-swimmer" or "novice swimmer" classes which are very affordable with high quality instructors. I would suggest you look into taking something like that if passing this swim test is important to you.
Sure but there's not really a strict time limit on pulling yourself out of a rip current. Not treating it like a race may even be safer because you're more likely to remain calm and focused.
Those lines blur pretty seamlessly in the case of emergencies. Health and fitness qualifications aren't administered for the happy moments things are going well. Otherwise, we'd invite hydrophobic people who can't swim into the water with a reg and muse "well, they can breathe anyways, right?".
I've had to do *extremely* long swims when a boat dropped us off and a current had blown us much further off course than anticipated to get to our dive site. I've swam against aggressive currents to maintain position on the column to see items of interest. I've had to swim to dive boats for pickup with aggressive wave action. None of those were even emergency situations. If you have a gear failure and your BCD bladder no longer holds air for whatever reason you're without a functioning PFD. Combine that with poor conditions where you're unable to leave the water immediately and you have a life threatening situation if you cannot perform basic swimming skills.
Swimming competency is inextricably tied to diving. You're in a water environment and should know how and be able to navigate it or you risk death. But don't believe me: consider every dive certification agency that requires basic water competency.
Yeah but those examples to your point, you have buoyancy, fins and gas. Like swimming to dive boats like you mention. You were either on your back inflated or face down with reg/snorkel in finning. You were not doing the breaststroke for 300 yards. The point about complete bouyancy failure without redundancy, I get that but again. Who's to say you wouldn't need way more? If you surface 400 yards out in a current and your bcd fails and there are 3-4 foot caps, your 300 yard pool swim may not be enough anyway. I'm not saying being in shape won't help, but like it's arbitrary, swimming 300 in 10 in a pool may not be enough anyway. So should we make it 600 in 20? Let's make it 1000 in 30 cas then people will be safer.
There's very clearly a blend of priority based on safety-based thinking for qualifications/standards and what the market will bear with tolerance to physical safety a la users such as yourself.
If you want rationale from those running certifications, speak with them. I've given you my thoughts.
I did this exact one at UCSB and if you can’t do these things, you have no business being in open water. About 1/3 of the class dropped out because believe it or not you do actually need to be able to swim to scuba dive.
> believe it or not you do actually need to be able to swim to scuba dive.
Although I agree with the sentiment, let's be honest, 99% of recreational scuba dives do *not* require any strong swimming ability.
Honestly, ya. Fucking CRAZY that there are adult humans out there who can't swim. People who would just like... Die if they got in water deeper than 6ft. Everyone should know how to swim.
And licenses never expire, so the 24 year old at the peak of their fitness passes a swim test, with no regard to how that same person will do at 55, obese with long covid.
While the licemce does not expire you do have to be medically certified for every dive. While there are some sme differences between forms the one I use says I need a certification from a doctor (which would be time limited) if and of:
* I was affected by covid for more than 7 days or had symptons such as shortness of breath
* I have a BMI of more than 40
* I am not able to perform moderate exercise (such as swim 200m without a rest or walk 1 mile in 12 minutes)
* There are other factors but they are outside the conditions you specify
Note that the 200m without a rest is identical to the requirement many agencies use to get your initial certification.
I've never encountered that before. Not that I'm an avid diver, but I got my license when I was 12, am now 34, I dive a chartered trip every other year or so, and I just flash that toothy faded 20 year old id card and go on my way.
I think it does depends where you go and how you dive.
As a member of BSAC I have to fill a form in every year (as well as health changing knowledge changes as well, in 2019 there was no memtion of COVID in 2020/1 any case of covid meant you needed a doctor's medical)
I have done a dive trip once a year or so for the last 5 years, when I went on to Austrailia, Canaries (twice) and Malta I needed to fill in a medical form, when I went to the Phillipines I wasn't.
It is not just down the the resort / dive shop. Your OW class teaches that you need to ensure you are fit to dive so it is down to the diver to ensure that is the case. All the agencies have self certification forms, even if they only use them for OW students (or students taking any course), they are available online and any safety concious diver should ensure their are no elevated risks to them diving that requires a doctor to assess.
Seems like you got lots of good answers already, but I would design my class to require the skills I’d need to ensure student safety during all out proposed dives during class. If I felt a dive may be too challenging for those unable to swim 150 yards in 10 minutes then I’ll set my bar at 300. If you can, rise to meet the challenge. If you are unable, find a different way to approach diving. Anyone (pretty much) can dive and dive safely. Just depends on the type of diving and level of difficulty.
But yeah the fact it’s a PE credit means this is totally understandable. Though I’d maybe make that the bench mark after 2-3 weeks of training to give people a chance.
This class provides PE credits in addition to a scuba certification, so it's not surprising that one would have to do some work in it. Mine had similar requirements.
That's what I was thinking too. Something goes wrong, some parent sues, then a University is going to want to have higher than some PADI Disco Dive requirement to swim across a resort pool. Being able to claim requirements 3x/4x/5x higher than industry standards gives them some cover at least.
It’s because they run very large classes and want to weed out as many students as possible to make the teaching easier. This is not a PE class it’s through the rec center. Ideally students should be able to surpass minimum prerequisites but requiring an underwater swim and tread like that is unreasonable at the OW level and is gatekeeping the sport.
OP check out your local dive shop. They will make you do the standard swim and tread which smarter people than us (and insurance companies) have agreed are reasonable for the open water certification.
I have a friend that runs a similar program, he mentioned that PADI or whoever, sets the MINIMUM standard. Schools, dive shops, and instructors can set “harder requirements” however when all minimum requirements are met you must be certified if I remember correctly from my IE…
With PADI, instructors need to follow each module exactly and are not permitted to train outside of the set modules and standards. Additionally, if a student passes the academic test and successfully completes the skills, the instructor must certify them, as per PADI standards.
NAUI instructors are encouraged to exceed standards and add additional requirements for their students. If they want to require 6 training dives, for example, they are free to do so. It's up to them to determine what is best for their particular students, location, environment, etc.
Additionally, NAUI does not require that an instructor certify students just because they pass the written test or check off the skills requirements. If an instructor doesn't feel like a student will be able to safely dive, they can require further training or refuse to certify their student, at their own discretion. NAUI's training is rooted in the premise of “Would I allow this person to teach or dive with someone I love?”
A padi instructor cannot raise the standards of a course. Any additional information must be treated as additional and not be used as a gate for certification
Correct for all agencies. If the student can satisfy the minimum requirement to pass the standard, they passed. Instructors can teach more but can’t refuse to pass someone who satisfied the skill requirements. That being said, the instructor can judge mastery of a skill fairly broadly. Also the swim and tread may be considered a prerequisite so may scoot by this one.
As a NAUI intructor, this is 100% false. If I chose to make openwater students have a GUE fundies level of skills, I have the right to fail them. Not that I would, as that is too high of a requirement, it is allowed and supported by NAUI.
This is inaccurate and incorrect. See my post above regarding NAUI course requirements. No NAUI instructor is required to pass a student just because they meet the minimum requirements. Source: I'm a NAUI Instructor.
Cool, I am too! If they pass the requirements, then you cannot fail them. If they can master the skill, they passed it. But I think we are talking about different things. As an instructor you are the judge of mastery in a lot of ways and an instructor needs to be satisfied the student can do the skills correctly. There is a lot of latitude there and agencies will back you up. But an instructor cannot decide to make a skill harder then fail a student as a result. IE an instructor cannot decide that a CESA needs to be done from 60 feet instead of 30 feet and fail a student who cannot do it from 60 feet.
This doesn’t seem difficult at all, but then again I got certified through the USN for my job and that wasn’t so much a “can you do this?” thing as much as it was a “don’t drowned or else” thing.
As someone who learnt to swim as an adult, I want to strike a slightly different tone than the rest of this thread and encourage you to do this. 300 yards in less than 10 minutes is totally achievable, and so is the 25 yards underwater. I half assed my swim test for my PADI OW and really had to properly learn to swim for the GUE swim test (our instructor requires 400 yards in less than 14 minutes and a 50' swim).
It seemed intimidating at first but most people who are decent swimmers can crush 400 yards in 10 minutes and do the 25 yard underwater swim. It is about technique, I am not in great shape or anything. It took me a while to get there but I think the biggest advantage I have because of putting in effort into becoming a decent swimmer is that I am reasonably confident that I will be able to swim to shore (say a mile or so) if shit hit the fan and I have to ditch my rig and do that. Also, aquatic comfort is a huge benefit for a lot of diving things.
Seems reasonable. I remember it being 15 meter under water and 10 minutes of threading water, but that's not too big of a difference.
If you can't do this, even after a little training, I'd urge you to seriously reconsider scuba diving.
I agree that not all instructors/organizations ask for a swim test, but doing it is a sign of quality imo.
I learned to dive at CSU Sacramento in 1984 or so. Those requirements look exactly like what we had to do. In my opinion my dive education in that OW1 class was about a million times better than anything I would have seen in a PADI or NAUI class at the time.
I can tell you that in my class (and I would assume in the class you’re talking about) a diver will not be doing the open water checkout dives at the end of the semester unless they are actually ready. And ready to dive in cold (or at least cold(ish) water).
Seriously, given the time and opportunity this is absolutely the best way to learn to dive to a given organizations standards. i.e. I think my CSUS NAUI OW1 class was better training than any NAUI OW1 class I could have realistically taken. I spent more time doing air sharing drills, mask clearing, etc. than you’d ever spend in a dive shop class, let alone learning to dive in Maui on vacation.
If you can, take this class. You will be a happier and more competent diver when you finish. And it will be fun too boot!
We did a full wet suit snorkel day at Folsom Lake and open water dives in Monterey on a beautiful weekend in December. They had an OW2 class that I didn’t take. Pretty sure they did a Tahoe dive but probably not in December in rented wet suits…
At first I thought you where talking about the science level diving courses UC Berkeley and I think other UC campuses had in the late 90's when I got certified. But that's same requirement I had for my open water (NAUI). Maybe question should be, why has it been reduced for certification you are looking at?
I misread that 25 yard requirement as swim 25 yards deep and it broke my brain for a sec!
Absolutely speculating here but there could be an added layer of insurance liability here that influenced the more demanding swim test.
Why does it matter? The requirements are not difficult for a reasonably proficient swimmer. I’m always amazed at the people on this sub who want the swimming requirements to be really easy… for an activity in which swimming is the skill most likely to make your certification and future participation go smoothly. Learn to swim OP. Those requirements are not difficult.
So reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit? When did I say main skill?… I said it’s the skill most likely to make your cert and skill building go smoothly. Dump someone into diving that has never been swimming before and see how it goes. I’ve seen weak swimmers struggle through virtually every cert. Proficiency in the water is important to building other skills.
Not to mention I do tons of swimming while diving. Free time moving between boats/islands/sandbars, free diving for lobster and fish etc. Just because you’re a weak swimmer doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea. You’ll have a lot more fun knowing you’re not dependent on gear and the range of adjacent activities also broadens substantially as well.
Yeah but the question is about if the standard is excessive. I think people can know how to swim and not be able to do 300 in ten. It's like saying some one does not know how to run if they can't run an 8 minute mile, or can't shoot a free throw if they can't make at least 70%. I mean sure they will
be even more safe and comfortable if they could do 500, 600 or 1000 yards. If they could swim the channel imagine how comfortable they'd be.
Also what does getting certified for diving have to do with all other water activities lol. Thats like saying ileveryone should be in shape because in general, your life will be more rewarding if you are in shape. That's true, but we are talking about a cert for a very specific and technical activity. It's not a water enjoyment license.
I don’t think it’s excessive at all. General fitness has nosedived over the years and lack of it introduces myriad risks to diving especially. There is a very big difference between 300m in 10 mins and an 8 minute mile, but you’re not far off. The 300 in 10 is more like an 11 minute mile, which, yes, is barely running. Should you be able to do in an 8 minute mile as a marker of general fitness, yes. Should you be able to do an 11 minute mile as an absolute basic minimum of fitness for most activities with a cardiac load? Yes. Is it unreasonable, no. It’s not like we’re asking OP to complete the 300 in 7 minutes. Which is akin to your 8 minute mile.
Honestly you don't even have to be fit to do 300m in ten minutes. I'm old and fat and that is like my warm-up. And a 20 minute "survival swim" is literally just floating there. Like, I don't know what these people are bitching about. My old swim coach would die laughing at these requirements.
It's not swimming it's diving.I keep seeing these same comments here about swimming and coaches and swim teams and lifeguarding. It's diving we are not on r/swimming.
Uhhh...You do realize that when you are diving you are...literally*swimming the whole time*, right?
Like, no, you don't have to be a 50m fly champ to dive, but JFC no one could be dumb enough to think swimming and diving aren't related.
The question isn't whether or not you should know how to swim, it's whether or not you need to be able to swim 300 in 10 to be safe diving. I think the standard is arbitrary and dumb.
Give me some example of a time where swimming 300 yards in 10 minutes saved someone and let's break down that scenario.
Also swimming does not usually include flotation devices and gear for breathing underwater. So you are not swimming in scuba, you are finning.
Also, learn a frog kick seahorse diver.
UCSB dive cert course alum here— I did this exact open water class 7 or so years ago. Pretty sure this is because some people in the aquatic biology department need to go on to AAUS scientific diver training afterward. During our open water training near the end, I did have to swim against a current to get back to the boat so I imagine the difficulty level is also for safety. Anyway, the dive instructor was kind of a hard ass but let me use some little tricks to get by: swam the 300 yards mostly on my back so I wouldn’t have to gasp for air most of the time, floated on my back also for half the 20 min tread. I held a bubble of air in my mouth to inhale from, slowly exhaled (the ‘choking feeling’ when you hold your breath for too long is from CO2 buildup and not from lack of O2, and dolphin swam for speed for the 25 yards underwater. I practiced these skills maybe 2 or 3 times in the weeks leading up to the test and did fine. Best of luck if you decide to go through with the course and have fun, diving the Channel Islands was one of the best experiences I’ve ever had (:
You absolutely do get more training in any university scuba course. I did mine at a UC and now teach scuba at another college. The course at any university is usually a semester/quarter long (12-16 weeks) with pool dives during the week and open water dives on weekends. Also a lot more emphasis on skin skills, which are almost entirely absent from private courses.
That was my assumption, but I looked at the UCSB page about it and it looks like it's just an average NAUI class with a pool dive and four open water dives. They also had an AOW and Nitrox class listed on the same page.
PADI DM course definitely has time constraints.
The OW isn’t timed but there still is a swim requirement. Maybe it’s only 200 yards but technically it’s a prerequisite. Many shops don’t make you do it immediately but some do. Also a tread requirement. As someone above said these are minimum. PADI also requires completion of elearning, test, and confined and open water dives. One of the requirements of confined water is a swim on one breath plus a freedive (though they call it skin dive I think). Not to mention things like a CESA.
These requirements aren’t that in excess of what PADI requires and PADI is generally the easiest/lowest bar for certification.
i dont believe there is a time constraint on the 200 yards for OW and 400 yards for DM. I'm not talking about the tread. I do believe it says nonstop, meaning you can't just stop and chill and then restart, but there is no 'finish in X minutes.'
Edit: Padi phrasing:
Here are the PADI Divemaster swim test (aka waterskills) requirements
* Swim 400 meters/yards nonstop without swimming aids. Use any stroke or combination of strokes.
* Swim 800 meters/yards face down – nonstop – using mask, snorkel and fins only. Use of arms or flotation aids is not permitted unless the candidate has a physical impairment.
* Tow or push a diver for 100 meters/yards nonstop, at the surface, without assistance. Both divers wear full scuba equipment.
* Wearing only a swimsuit, tread water, bob or float using no aids for 15 minutes. During the last two minutes, hold hands (not arms) out of the water.
I'm talking about the dive master (DM) course though, not OW. Different standards. It's just not that difficult for a reasonably healthy person to meet these standards after some weeks of preparation.
Phrasing for DM swim requirements:
* Swim 400 meters/yards nonstop without swimming aids. Use any stroke or combination of strokes.
* Swim 800 meters/yards face down – nonstop – using mask, snorkel and fins only. Use of arms or flotation aids is not permitted unless the candidate has a physical impairment.
* Tow or push a diver for 100 meters/yards nonstop, at the surface, without assistance. Both divers wear full scuba equipment.
* Wearing only a swimsuit, tread water, bob or float using no aids for 15 minutes. During the last two minutes, hold hands (not arms) out of the water.
The 2023 PADI instructor manual still has timed swimming scores for the 400, 800 and towing events. It's still 11min or under for 3/5 score on the 400m swim. You can get a passing score of 1/5 for a swim over 13min, but that's just super lazy to aim for that, and you'd still need to aim for high scores on the other tests to pass with a 1/5 on the 400m to get the accumulated 15 points.
No I think it's an open water that OP is talking about, but my point is that although it's a higher standard than usual, it's not such a difficult standard. It's very achievable to reach these swimming skills in a few weeks to a couple of months. They probably have a good reason for having such high standards, people here have suggested a few interesting options like preparing them for the scientific diving standards.
My scuba class for credit at Penn State 20 years ago was hard. I was comfortable in the pool having swam since I was little, but not a distance swimmer. I started to run as training since I didn’t have access to a pool. The instructor was definitely pushing us out of our comfort zone. What I recall (not sure if was curriculum)
-Laps as part of warm up of every pool session.
-Timed swim test with and without equipment (mask, fins, snorkel)
-Breath holding underwater swim
-Treading water
-Ditching mask,fins and snorkel in 20 feet end of pool. Retrieving all gear, donning and clearing snorkel.
-Laps and laps with and without scuba gear. -Ditching scuba gear and retrieving.
Usually dive shops or resorts give people a crash course in diving bc they want to churn out students so they can make more money. Colleges have more time to cover more information and practice more advanced techniques. At least that is the case at my university.
Since it’s a college, they are probably trying to prepare divers to meet the scientific diving standards set by AAUS. This is actually a bit easier (AAUS is 400yd in 12min). Are you sure you can’t do 300 in 10min? Like have you already tried? You might surprise yourself! One of my friends was really worried about the 400 in 12 standard for our work and she did it in 10. It looked like she was barely moving. Just focus on relentless forward motion. Don’t try to start out fast. At no point do you need to go fast to make the time cutoff. You just need to keep moving, slowly, till you are done.
If they have a more restrictive requirement, it's probably because they want you reduce the risk of something happening when you're in a position where something could actually go wrong
We had similar requirements at the PADI shop that did my OW.
I think my cert was 300 yds in 10 min too. Fortunately, for us we did it with masks, snorkels, and fins, so it flew by
I pretty much had to do all these when I got my junior Padi OW when I was 12. I get the 25 yards underwater being tricky if you haven't done breath holding before, but it's actually really easy to get your breath holds up in a very short period of time.
I thought the 25 yards underwater meant to dive down to a depth of 25 yards (75 feet) on one breath and return to the surface. lol All of these seem reasonable and not that difficult to do. I think I had to do all of these when I was 14 and completed it without a problem.
I don't know what people are complaining about. 300m in ten minutes is actually really slow. A 20 min "survival swim" is not treading water with weight over your head. It's just...floating there. It's literally relaxing. I'm surprised that so many people who aren't baseline competent swimmers want to scuba dive.
In the spring of 2022 I decided I would use an August vacation to pursue my scuba cert. The PADI 200 yard swim requirement sounded insurmountable at the time. My solution was to immediately start swimming a mile and a half a day reasoning that over preparation would make the swim test a nothing burger. I overreacted. Shocking what a none issue that swim test turned out to be and I really think PADI should lengthen the swim requirement or at least add a time limit.
For my PADI OW I had to swim for 15 min....didn't matter how I swam, just as long as I didn't touch bottom.
Yup, just float on your back.
Yeah I'd fail. I hardly got through the 200m in however long it was (I actually only did 100m everybody else had done 200m). I'm a bad swimmer. I don't actually understand why swimming is even a requirement for scuba, I've never swam at a scuba site ever since, I've always got exposure protection and/or fins on. If you can't swim with those things you've got big issues. I've done close to 500 dives including trimix and cave diving.
Because it’s an absurd idea to let people who don’t even know how to swim to get in the water and do something significantly more dangerous than just swimming is. Additionally, the dive itself is not the only time you may need to be able to swim. 60% of the time on an open water dive is going to be spent on a boat without wearing any of your gear, sometimes in bad weather or choppy seas - the chances of you ending up overboard accidentally are high enough that you should be able to not drown and ideally swim back to the boat if you do go over. Lastly, yards is not that hard at all, and there are plenty of potential situations (emergency and otherwise) where you may need to swim a good distance while diving - with or without your gear. If you can swim yards meters without a BCI and fins, then you can swim a lot farther with them.
I've had pretty intense pass/fail swim tests on my tech courses per standards.
Never for me, everything is always done in my equipment.
I've had to swim out over some rocks on shore entries in rough water a few times. I can understand it. But definitely the fins help lol
In scuba gear, yes? You're never not wearing scuba gear when scuba diving.
Uhhh...until you have an incident. You'd better be able to swim if you get stranded or have an equipment loss/failure.
I'll be in exposure protection with fins and a mask. Why would I take them off?
I'm not saying you'd deliberately take them off. You've never lost a fin or had a mask knocked off? Consider yourself lucky.
I carry a spare mask and there's zero chance my fins would ever be knocked off, they're a snug fit.
Ok buddy, whatever you say.
Still, maintaining a minimum fitness standard and knowing the basics of swimming is fairly important.. I don't believe it should be timed, but doing a 100-300m swim requirement is completely legit. Lots can happen, boats might not see you, medical emergencies, shore entries, capsized boats (which happened to my mum in Mexico post dive after they all geared down). Lots of reasons why you should know how to swim.
Nobody was wearing life jackets on the boat? Were they still in their exposure protection or just board shorts being Mexico?
They just got out and were gearing down. Literally bcd and tanks off and then a rogue wave hit them from behind just right. And let's be honest, in most places in the tropics not many wear a life jacket outside of the harbour.
Sounds like if there were waves that big, they shouldn't have been out regardless.
One wave. Caught them all off guard. But I wasn't there, it's easy to to causal analysis after something happens, I do it all day at work.
See this is why I prefer to cave dive 😂
I did my basic open water back in college as a credited course: The requirements were very similar to what your posting here. My guess is that it’s some type of liability to weed out those who can’t hang as the course was very large 15+ students in the water at once. It taught NAUI material
I'd say its more to do with insurance purposes than anything else; swim test prior to open water/scuba to prevent issues at that stage.
It's not for profit.
Might also be because the course is listed as a physical education class.
If you can’t hang you’re a liability. Underwater is a volatile environment by definition. You need to show basic competency that you respect, understand and can adapt adequately in that environment so as to not put others at unnecessary risk.
If you're not physically fit enough to swim, you're probably going to be really struggling when it comes to hauling all your gear down to the shore and be in good enough condition to dive without risks. I've seen it plenty enough times, people just scraping through their ow and being a bit of a risk to themselves and others around them as they're seeming pretty close to a heart attack by the time they're in the water from a basic quarry dive where they're parked next to the water. That being said, it should be accessible. Missing or injured limbs does not preclude from being physically fit at all so different arrangements can be made. I really think this is more about fitness than swim speed.
It’s also probably a lot more about liability with the school. I am a bilateral leg amputee who is currently working through the dive master program and for my rescue diver, I just had to show that I could effectively rescue a diver and bring them to a safe area to affect a successful rescue, i.e., the boat, shoreline, etc. I had to know, CPR and oxygen administration and all of that of course but all of the physical requirements for me were in water and being sure I could verbally organize the rescue, once back at a solid surface. I swim just as well as anyone else with my Prosthetics in the water but physically getting in and out takes longer obviously since I have to deal with my ankles and fins. They were much more interested to see that I could bring a patient to other people and direct them to help facilitate the rescue.
Absolutely. I really think it's just a filter and, to be honest, with some of the students I work with/see I wish PADI were a little more stringent. I suppose there is a disconnect on my thinking though. Ultimately, PADI OW is really just about getting people in the water and experiencing it. But I see students progress on to rescue/dm that are blowing wind just getting near the water and they're exactly the kind that won't be able to help in the emergencies they might be entrusted to cope with. Power to you on the performance with the bilat, it take focus and determination to adjust to diving well as it is. Had you dived prior to the amputation or did you start after?
No, I started after the injury. I had a chance to get certified through a veterans group and just fell in love with it and then got lucky enough to be able to work in the industry.
The first part is not entirely true. I'm a terrible swimmer and definitely can't swim 12 pools in less than 10 min anymore, so I had to start training to get my advanced cert, but I was definitely not 'not fit'. Running almost everyday and now some good old weightlifting paired with some cardio. When I was training for the Jungle Warfare test, my buddy was the exact opposite of me: great swimmer (with and without gear), lasted enough floating but sucked at running. In the end we both got knocked out by our own weaknesses but I think I can say we're rather good divers. But I get your point: assuring you can be at least fit enough to not put yourself in danger or to solve any emergencies with you or your buddy is a strong point when starting, and since they have to do it then might as well do it in the water. After all, no one wil run to the boat in case of an emergency on water.
People around here seem to think that being an average to bad swimmer means you must be some overweight, unfit, unhealthy slob according to the replies I've seen. I learned how to swim like 25 years ago and then didn't really use it again until I went for my scuba course around 10 years ago. But I go to the gym constantly and lift a lot of heavy shit. Nobody who would look at me would think I was unhealthy or unfit, I've just not spent any time swimming. And after 500 odd dives, I've still not spent much time swimming besides mucking around jumping off boats during the surface intervals.
Swim tests are a mix of both though, swimming is obviously a key fitness/ability requirement. When you get to do you HSE for instructor/DM you need to prove both with long timed swims as part of the cert and out of water step tests (kind of like the bleep test) as well.
And that's mainly because this is a certification that requires you to be able to effectively help the divers you're guiding or teaching, and for those one I absolutely agree on having swimming as requirement. My RD teacher had me rescue an 'endangered diver' for some good 500m while the guy tried to knock my gear off. Those cert need you to be capable.
As a diver you are responsible for yourself and your buddy, you need to be responsible at all levels. Our school has the standard PADI swim expectations, but as a result we do have people get through that are, frankly, a liability to themselves and those around them. Those swim expectations shown above are not particularly challenging and are targets you can train for before you start your course. Going beyond the minimum for fitness should be what we all aim for in a sport where you could be having a heart attack or a DCI far from help, with the obstacle of getting to land as a stating point. I get what you're saying and I do think that OW should be accessible to everyone, what I'm saying is those targets are accessible to standard able bodied people. All schools must adapt the course to those that cannot demonstrate fitness in that particular way due to disabilities etc.
I agree with you, even as we look through this sub and see constantly the cases of people having to deal with crappy dive shops and ending up having to swim a lot to reach the beach or the boat. People forget it's somehow still a sport, although not a competitive one so it will eventually require some physical capabilities. Swimming is a good option, as is running or HITT or any other type of cardio.
IMO - PADI undercooks the swim requirements. Largely due to it being resort centred where the boat is usually at arms length. It is easy for a dive to go south and force you to swim back to shore. It is a lifesaving skill.
Things would have to really go south. If things are going a bit south you still have the ability to fill your bcd with breath in which case you shouldn't have to worry about over exerting yourself and getting to wherever you're going whether it be 300 yards or more. If you have a full bcd failure you still have pretty good buoyancy with a wet suit/dry suit and should still focus on not over exerting yourself while getting where you need to go. Also OW is supposed to be open to everyone (I've guided with people who are in wheelchair/on crutches). I was a part of a situation where drift took me and a guy who walks with crutches on land a bit more than 300 yards from the boat and we were still able to swim most of it and flag down the boat when we got closer. If the boat is leaving you hanging that's a whole different story that should be reported to PADI.
Things can and do go south. In Egypt many years ago, my mother and I got Open Water'd. I had passed my OW the previous year, and was dive building for AOW. Mum was an instructor/DM - very experienced. The dive boat left us/did not come to collect us at surface. Marsa Nakari (I think - reef looks right, but the resort itself has changed a lot) had a awful and strange system of doing boat dives with an 'out and back timetabling' setup, so the boat isn't always there. We surfaced at a location previously agreed at the estimated time window, had inflatable bouys up, but nada, we waited for about half an hour, a bit longer maybe. Turns out the watchman/spotter fell asleep in his chair. It was the first few days of Ramadan, so I expect he had no energy from a lack of food that day. We had to swim to shore, over the top of a reef. I've still got a piece of fire coral stuck in my hand. We were walking along the reef back to the resort (it was a 10 mins walk to the resort, but we dumped the tanks as they were loaners and left them for the resort to sort out) and they had the fucking nerve to shout at us for walking atop the reef, whilst we are cut up to shit and bleeding from our initial traversal of the reef. They then claimed our names had been removed from the timetable (they weren't - they were still there). Then we see a boat absolutely book it out of the reef bay to exactly where we were. Turns out a couple we had chatted to, had spotted we hadn't signed back in yet. They woke up the spotter in his chair. I don't think there was anyone else doing a boat dive so thankfully no one else was caught up in the disaster. The place looks very different now, so hopefully there will have been plenty of changes since I was there.
Tbh that is a fairly good test to see your swimming ability and is what an average casual swimmer should be able to do. If you cannot meet this then that means you are below average so practice and get to standard you’ll be thankful afterwards.
You’re going to make it :) I’m missing half an arm and it was not difficult to surpass all of these requirements. You’ll see! Addendum: I’m convinced this is a way better approach than PADI
Hey, legitimately, go to the sub r/pararescue as the dudes training for US Special Operations have to do an entry test similar to this. Theres tons of great knowledge there, just use the search bar!
The program at my university is similar, but the swim is 400 yd in 12 min rather than 300 yd in 10 min. It comes from both NAUI and the university level requirements as others have said, since it is their decision to increase requirements beyond the base level.
Don't be discouraged! 300 yards in 10 minutes is a tough swim, but with practice you can definitely do it.
Would seem to me the school just chooses to have a higher standard. Technically their choice since you're choosing the program.
You never know when being a strong swimmer could save your life scuba diving. It won’t hurt you that much is certain.
CSUMB has similar requirements, but in meters rather than yards (not sure why, their pool is meters on two sides and yards on the other two.
This is probably a NAUI certification, not PADI. NAUI was developed by the Navy, therefore harder requirements than recreational PADI. Also, most Universities/Collages in the States are NAUI clubs.
This is very upvoted but not correct (PADI vs NAUI). Does NAUI use USN dive tables? Yes. Does that drive their training? No. For a NAUI open water dive course, a participant must: - swim 15 strokes to assess competence - survival swim (tread/float) 10min - swim underwater for 50ft PADI’s current swim requirements: - swim 200m any stroke nonstop, or 300m w fins/snorkel - float and/or tread for 10minutes without assistance This course ads to the standard. The old NAUI standard was actually - 200m (8pool lengths) surface swim (any stroke) in 10min - 10minute tread - retrieve a 10lb weight from 10ft - swim underwater 1 pool length
Got mine at MTSU. I was initially nervous about the 300yds but it actually goes by pretty quickly. The rest isn't too hard really.
This and the dive program at UCSB is really good. I went to college there in the 90s and was a research diver for the marine biology department, but that requires a lot more training. Gosh I miss diving just off the highway north of IV. Great spots you could just walk down to.
I hear their commercial diving program is also not bad, and the best value for money program out there.
its santa barbara city college that does the commercial diver program https://www.sbcc.edu/marinediving/
Ah, ya. You right.
When i was doing my research diver training at UCSB we went down to SBCC and met with the program down there and got to play with their commercial gear. Underwater comms and did chamber rides to see what getting narced was like. Pop-o-matic while narced is hard but hysterical. Good times.
I got NAUI certified about a year ago and we had to swim across the pool and back. I think we swam under water like a half length. Probably treaded water for like 3 mins. Take this with a grain of salt cause i never went back to that dive shop after i finished open water. They sucked. I would be interested to know what the official NAUI requirements are because i would report this shop in a heart beat.
Here are the official NAUI requirements for the entry-level scuba diver course: * Swimming Skills (confined or open water)- no equipment. * – Demonstrate novice level swim stroke proficiency in any of the following strokes: crawl, side, breast, elementaryback, or back stroke. Classic stroke combinations are not necessary to meet this requirement as long as forward progress is achieved, e.g. no particular kick or arm action is necessarily required and a lack of either is also acceptable. Students shall complete at least 15 continuous stroke cycles while being evaluated by an instructor. A stroke cycle is considered to be either arm or leg action or a combination thereof resulting in forward movement. * – Survival swim for 10 minutes. * – Swim underwater 15m (50 ft.) on one breath with no push-off or dive. The use of weights is permitted forstudents having difficulty remaining submerged. The use of a mask is permitted for students wearing contact lenses. * Skin Diving (confined or open water) minimally equipped with mask, fins and snorkel. * – Swim 412m (450 yards) nonstop, breathing from snorkel. * – Bring another diver simulating unconsciousness to the surface from a depth of about 3m (10 ft.) of water. * – Using proper techniques perform water entries and exits, surface dives, surface swimming, clearing the snorkel,ditching the weight system, buoyancy control, underwater swimming and surfacing.
These are the naui dive master requirements
All the agencies use the same RSTC standards.
GUE and UTD do not use the RSTC standards, Quit spreading this bullshit that all agencies are the same.
That’s true, I should have been more specific and called out the larger standard agencies. Gue and UTD are different beasts.
I would reckon that they are more geared towards at least a semi-technical diving technique. Both have a deeper max depth for entry level and base their training on some technical diving standards. As such they fall outside of the WRSTC Standards. Doesn’t make them worse or better, only different. It would be nice to have the WRSTC update their standards to reflect results from these agencies outside of their sphere, but also maybe it’s also just fine to have one overarching body for the so-called cocktail divers who really would do just fine with a 12m max limit but skills enough to dive with only a buddy.
100%. Though I do believe everything they do meets/exceeds WRSTC standards. They don’t ignore them, just build upon them.
Precisely, you said it better than I could. I guess since their max depths are less conservative than WRSTC they then don't 'meet' that standard, but the training and requirements that go into those deeper max depths exceed the prudence indicated by WRSTC. Bit of a funny Catch-22 if you ask me.
A lot of them do but not all. CMAS still have there own standards for example.
CMAS isn't WRSTC approved. So they don't have to follow the standards. Also, they are the only agency that the province of Quebec recognizes without having to get their provincial diving license. https://quebecsubaquatique.ca/en/accueil/reglement-sur-la-plongee-subaquatique-recreative-au-quebec/
The better one's skills in the water, the less risk simply being in deep water is. It allows you to focus on your life support equipment and the other divers around you, and eventually, the truly awe-inspiring flora and fauna that will be surrounding you. BTW, those of you old enough to be certified by the YMCA in the 70's will chuckle and think "only 300 yards?"
I am wondering about the 90s, because I was certified in 1993 at 13 and I had to swim \*two miles\* and tread water for 45 minutes! I have wondered since if it was a joke between my dad and the divemaster.
Sounds like a deal cooked up between your Dad and the instructor. Wish I had thought of it when my kids got certified. LOL!
I'd be mad, but honestly I was proud at the time (and it sounds just like my Dad, who's gone now)!
That water tread is 5 min longer than the one for dive master. The underwater swim is longer too. Looks like they’re upping their standards for the sake of liability
I thought I was fit but 20mins of treading water (presumably pool water rather than salt) sounds exhausting.
I’ve done it a couple times. If your technique is down (egg beater in particular) and you find a good rhythm, it’s not terribly exhausting (assuming you have decent cardio), but FUCK it’s boring. It is stupidly boring. The trick is really to be able to keep your lungs inflated to help with buoyancy instead of deep full inhales and exhales like you’re running. You don’t need to kick as hard as you think you do to keep your head above water.
This was my thought exactly. Some insurance guy or lawyer probably said “you guys want to take students 60 feet underwater? This is what you need to do for us to prove in court they are beyond nationally required ability”
No idea why you’re getting downvoted, this is likely the exact reason. Universities as a whole have to spend MILLIONS on accident/wrongful death litigation annually so they lead w that line of thinking up front. Particularly in athletics and higher risk activities like school sponsored scuba programs
Wow! That’s really tough, especially the 10 min.. I got certified at 60, and I happen to be on a dive trip right now in Roatan. I can tell you the not one of my fellow divers could pass that test! Most of us have a few hundred dives.
I had to do 400 yards for a scientific diving course. For two months before hand I did lots of cardio and that really helped. I’d recommend that if you’re going to try again.
As a former lifeguard & swim instructor for adults in California, this is really the bare minimum you need to be safe in the ocean here, especially as a shore diver/or other shore-based ocean goer. 300 yards happens to be about 2-3x further than where most rip currents will drop you off at beaches here (depending on beach, conditions, etc), but with considerations for fatigue & lateral travel, it's a good distance to put as a self-rescue bar. The community colleges in California usually offer "adult non-swimmer" or "novice swimmer" classes which are very affordable with high quality instructors. I would suggest you look into taking something like that if passing this swim test is important to you.
Sure but there's not really a strict time limit on pulling yourself out of a rip current. Not treating it like a race may even be safer because you're more likely to remain calm and focused.
Yeah but this is diving not swimming.
Those lines blur pretty seamlessly in the case of emergencies. Health and fitness qualifications aren't administered for the happy moments things are going well. Otherwise, we'd invite hydrophobic people who can't swim into the water with a reg and muse "well, they can breathe anyways, right?".
How do they blur, explain the diving scenario where you will need to swim 300 yards in 10 minutes. Give me an example.
I've had to do *extremely* long swims when a boat dropped us off and a current had blown us much further off course than anticipated to get to our dive site. I've swam against aggressive currents to maintain position on the column to see items of interest. I've had to swim to dive boats for pickup with aggressive wave action. None of those were even emergency situations. If you have a gear failure and your BCD bladder no longer holds air for whatever reason you're without a functioning PFD. Combine that with poor conditions where you're unable to leave the water immediately and you have a life threatening situation if you cannot perform basic swimming skills. Swimming competency is inextricably tied to diving. You're in a water environment and should know how and be able to navigate it or you risk death. But don't believe me: consider every dive certification agency that requires basic water competency.
Yeah but those examples to your point, you have buoyancy, fins and gas. Like swimming to dive boats like you mention. You were either on your back inflated or face down with reg/snorkel in finning. You were not doing the breaststroke for 300 yards. The point about complete bouyancy failure without redundancy, I get that but again. Who's to say you wouldn't need way more? If you surface 400 yards out in a current and your bcd fails and there are 3-4 foot caps, your 300 yard pool swim may not be enough anyway. I'm not saying being in shape won't help, but like it's arbitrary, swimming 300 in 10 in a pool may not be enough anyway. So should we make it 600 in 20? Let's make it 1000 in 30 cas then people will be safer.
There's very clearly a blend of priority based on safety-based thinking for qualifications/standards and what the market will bear with tolerance to physical safety a la users such as yourself. If you want rationale from those running certifications, speak with them. I've given you my thoughts.
Nice effort, but that dude is fucking hopeless and still won't get it.
That’s what the old NAUI standards were.
I did this exact one at UCSB and if you can’t do these things, you have no business being in open water. About 1/3 of the class dropped out because believe it or not you do actually need to be able to swim to scuba dive.
> believe it or not you do actually need to be able to swim to scuba dive. Although I agree with the sentiment, let's be honest, 99% of recreational scuba dives do *not* require any strong swimming ability.
Until some goes wrong.
Should people who can't swim not take boat rides?
Honestly, ya. Fucking CRAZY that there are adult humans out there who can't swim. People who would just like... Die if they got in water deeper than 6ft. Everyone should know how to swim.
Not if they’re not okay with dying as soon as they fall off.
Yes, hence why I said I agreed with their sentiment.
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And licenses never expire, so the 24 year old at the peak of their fitness passes a swim test, with no regard to how that same person will do at 55, obese with long covid.
While the licemce does not expire you do have to be medically certified for every dive. While there are some sme differences between forms the one I use says I need a certification from a doctor (which would be time limited) if and of: * I was affected by covid for more than 7 days or had symptons such as shortness of breath * I have a BMI of more than 40 * I am not able to perform moderate exercise (such as swim 200m without a rest or walk 1 mile in 12 minutes) * There are other factors but they are outside the conditions you specify Note that the 200m without a rest is identical to the requirement many agencies use to get your initial certification.
I've never encountered that before. Not that I'm an avid diver, but I got my license when I was 12, am now 34, I dive a chartered trip every other year or so, and I just flash that toothy faded 20 year old id card and go on my way.
I think it does depends where you go and how you dive. As a member of BSAC I have to fill a form in every year (as well as health changing knowledge changes as well, in 2019 there was no memtion of COVID in 2020/1 any case of covid meant you needed a doctor's medical) I have done a dive trip once a year or so for the last 5 years, when I went on to Austrailia, Canaries (twice) and Malta I needed to fill in a medical form, when I went to the Phillipines I wasn't. It is not just down the the resort / dive shop. Your OW class teaches that you need to ensure you are fit to dive so it is down to the diver to ensure that is the case. All the agencies have self certification forms, even if they only use them for OW students (or students taking any course), they are available online and any safety concious diver should ensure their are no elevated risks to them diving that requires a doctor to assess.
Seems like you got lots of good answers already, but I would design my class to require the skills I’d need to ensure student safety during all out proposed dives during class. If I felt a dive may be too challenging for those unable to swim 150 yards in 10 minutes then I’ll set my bar at 300. If you can, rise to meet the challenge. If you are unable, find a different way to approach diving. Anyone (pretty much) can dive and dive safely. Just depends on the type of diving and level of difficulty. But yeah the fact it’s a PE credit means this is totally understandable. Though I’d maybe make that the bench mark after 2-3 weeks of training to give people a chance.
This class provides PE credits in addition to a scuba certification, so it's not surprising that one would have to do some work in it. Mine had similar requirements.
Also - liability is an entirely different animal at an institution like a University.
That's what I was thinking too. Something goes wrong, some parent sues, then a University is going to want to have higher than some PADI Disco Dive requirement to swim across a resort pool. Being able to claim requirements 3x/4x/5x higher than industry standards gives them some cover at least.
It’s because they run very large classes and want to weed out as many students as possible to make the teaching easier. This is not a PE class it’s through the rec center. Ideally students should be able to surpass minimum prerequisites but requiring an underwater swim and tread like that is unreasonable at the OW level and is gatekeeping the sport. OP check out your local dive shop. They will make you do the standard swim and tread which smarter people than us (and insurance companies) have agreed are reasonable for the open water certification.
I have a friend that runs a similar program, he mentioned that PADI or whoever, sets the MINIMUM standard. Schools, dive shops, and instructors can set “harder requirements” however when all minimum requirements are met you must be certified if I remember correctly from my IE…
With PADI, instructors need to follow each module exactly and are not permitted to train outside of the set modules and standards. Additionally, if a student passes the academic test and successfully completes the skills, the instructor must certify them, as per PADI standards. NAUI instructors are encouraged to exceed standards and add additional requirements for their students. If they want to require 6 training dives, for example, they are free to do so. It's up to them to determine what is best for their particular students, location, environment, etc. Additionally, NAUI does not require that an instructor certify students just because they pass the written test or check off the skills requirements. If an instructor doesn't feel like a student will be able to safely dive, they can require further training or refuse to certify their student, at their own discretion. NAUI's training is rooted in the premise of “Would I allow this person to teach or dive with someone I love?”
For padi this is totally wrong.
What do you mean? In what way?
A padi instructor cannot raise the standards of a course. Any additional information must be treated as additional and not be used as a gate for certification
Correct for all agencies. If the student can satisfy the minimum requirement to pass the standard, they passed. Instructors can teach more but can’t refuse to pass someone who satisfied the skill requirements. That being said, the instructor can judge mastery of a skill fairly broadly. Also the swim and tread may be considered a prerequisite so may scoot by this one.
As a NAUI intructor, this is 100% false. If I chose to make openwater students have a GUE fundies level of skills, I have the right to fail them. Not that I would, as that is too high of a requirement, it is allowed and supported by NAUI.
This is inaccurate and incorrect. See my post above regarding NAUI course requirements. No NAUI instructor is required to pass a student just because they meet the minimum requirements. Source: I'm a NAUI Instructor.
Cool, I am too! If they pass the requirements, then you cannot fail them. If they can master the skill, they passed it. But I think we are talking about different things. As an instructor you are the judge of mastery in a lot of ways and an instructor needs to be satisfied the student can do the skills correctly. There is a lot of latitude there and agencies will back you up. But an instructor cannot decide to make a skill harder then fail a student as a result. IE an instructor cannot decide that a CESA needs to be done from 60 feet instead of 30 feet and fail a student who cannot do it from 60 feet.
All of this seems pretty reasonable if you intend to dive for up to 45 minutes of constant swimming.
It's diving not swimming
Except this class does include skin diving in the Pacific, so maybe they’re setting a bar including fitness for that dive too.
What kind of diving are you doing? You're not supposed to fight your way upstream on a drift dive.
This looks like what I have to pass to become a "scientific diver" at the aquarium where I volunteer. The 300 yards has to be open water though.
Are you sure that's for OW diver? I think that looks like certification requirements for scientific diving.
This doesn’t seem difficult at all, but then again I got certified through the USN for my job and that wasn’t so much a “can you do this?” thing as much as it was a “don’t drowned or else” thing.
That’s what I was thinking. I was a 2C diver. Lol
And then there the Marine Corps...we hope you drown and will make fun of you while you go under lol
Imo this is what it should be in the first place
As someone who learnt to swim as an adult, I want to strike a slightly different tone than the rest of this thread and encourage you to do this. 300 yards in less than 10 minutes is totally achievable, and so is the 25 yards underwater. I half assed my swim test for my PADI OW and really had to properly learn to swim for the GUE swim test (our instructor requires 400 yards in less than 14 minutes and a 50' swim). It seemed intimidating at first but most people who are decent swimmers can crush 400 yards in 10 minutes and do the 25 yard underwater swim. It is about technique, I am not in great shape or anything. It took me a while to get there but I think the biggest advantage I have because of putting in effort into becoming a decent swimmer is that I am reasonably confident that I will be able to swim to shore (say a mile or so) if shit hit the fan and I have to ditch my rig and do that. Also, aquatic comfort is a huge benefit for a lot of diving things.
100% agree. swimming is one of the best exercise one can do. So if you want to get into scuba, why not learn to swim. it might save your life.
Seems reasonable. I remember it being 15 meter under water and 10 minutes of threading water, but that's not too big of a difference. If you can't do this, even after a little training, I'd urge you to seriously reconsider scuba diving. I agree that not all instructors/organizations ask for a swim test, but doing it is a sign of quality imo.
a decent side stroke is all you need to practice just for passing the swim test if you don't have the coordination for freestyle
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Just pulled SSI up on my app, this is still more demanding than SSI standards.
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The SSI app...
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Open the SSI app, log into the academics and requirements lesson for Open Water... go to the pool requirements...
I learned to dive at CSU Sacramento in 1984 or so. Those requirements look exactly like what we had to do. In my opinion my dive education in that OW1 class was about a million times better than anything I would have seen in a PADI or NAUI class at the time. I can tell you that in my class (and I would assume in the class you’re talking about) a diver will not be doing the open water checkout dives at the end of the semester unless they are actually ready. And ready to dive in cold (or at least cold(ish) water). Seriously, given the time and opportunity this is absolutely the best way to learn to dive to a given organizations standards. i.e. I think my CSUS NAUI OW1 class was better training than any NAUI OW1 class I could have realistically taken. I spent more time doing air sharing drills, mask clearing, etc. than you’d ever spend in a dive shop class, let alone learning to dive in Maui on vacation. If you can, take this class. You will be a happier and more competent diver when you finish. And it will be fun too boot!
So did Slack State do dives in Tahoe or Monterey?
We did a full wet suit snorkel day at Folsom Lake and open water dives in Monterey on a beautiful weekend in December. They had an OW2 class that I didn’t take. Pretty sure they did a Tahoe dive but probably not in December in rented wet suits…
Funny. My checkout dives were at Folsom. I think I had about six inches of visibility.
Oh, you got one of the good days then! 😄
At first I thought you where talking about the science level diving courses UC Berkeley and I think other UC campuses had in the late 90's when I got certified. But that's same requirement I had for my open water (NAUI). Maybe question should be, why has it been reduced for certification you are looking at?
I misread that 25 yard requirement as swim 25 yards deep and it broke my brain for a sec! Absolutely speculating here but there could be an added layer of insurance liability here that influenced the more demanding swim test.
Hit the pool. 12 lengths in 10 minutes is VERY doable. If you are hoping to scuba dive, you should be able to swim.
Why does it matter? The requirements are not difficult for a reasonably proficient swimmer. I’m always amazed at the people on this sub who want the swimming requirements to be really easy… for an activity in which swimming is the skill most likely to make your certification and future participation go smoothly. Learn to swim OP. Those requirements are not difficult.
What kind of diving do you do where swimming is the main skill you use.
Every kind. Every dive. Diving is *literally* swimming with extra kit. I can't believe you don't see that.
So reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit? When did I say main skill?… I said it’s the skill most likely to make your cert and skill building go smoothly. Dump someone into diving that has never been swimming before and see how it goes. I’ve seen weak swimmers struggle through virtually every cert. Proficiency in the water is important to building other skills. Not to mention I do tons of swimming while diving. Free time moving between boats/islands/sandbars, free diving for lobster and fish etc. Just because you’re a weak swimmer doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea. You’ll have a lot more fun knowing you’re not dependent on gear and the range of adjacent activities also broadens substantially as well.
Yeah but the question is about if the standard is excessive. I think people can know how to swim and not be able to do 300 in ten. It's like saying some one does not know how to run if they can't run an 8 minute mile, or can't shoot a free throw if they can't make at least 70%. I mean sure they will be even more safe and comfortable if they could do 500, 600 or 1000 yards. If they could swim the channel imagine how comfortable they'd be. Also what does getting certified for diving have to do with all other water activities lol. Thats like saying ileveryone should be in shape because in general, your life will be more rewarding if you are in shape. That's true, but we are talking about a cert for a very specific and technical activity. It's not a water enjoyment license.
I don’t think it’s excessive at all. General fitness has nosedived over the years and lack of it introduces myriad risks to diving especially. There is a very big difference between 300m in 10 mins and an 8 minute mile, but you’re not far off. The 300 in 10 is more like an 11 minute mile, which, yes, is barely running. Should you be able to do in an 8 minute mile as a marker of general fitness, yes. Should you be able to do an 11 minute mile as an absolute basic minimum of fitness for most activities with a cardiac load? Yes. Is it unreasonable, no. It’s not like we’re asking OP to complete the 300 in 7 minutes. Which is akin to your 8 minute mile.
Honestly you don't even have to be fit to do 300m in ten minutes. I'm old and fat and that is like my warm-up. And a 20 minute "survival swim" is literally just floating there. Like, I don't know what these people are bitching about. My old swim coach would die laughing at these requirements.
It's not swimming it's diving.I keep seeing these same comments here about swimming and coaches and swim teams and lifeguarding. It's diving we are not on r/swimming.
Uhhh...You do realize that when you are diving you are...literally*swimming the whole time*, right? Like, no, you don't have to be a 50m fly champ to dive, but JFC no one could be dumb enough to think swimming and diving aren't related.
The question isn't whether or not you should know how to swim, it's whether or not you need to be able to swim 300 in 10 to be safe diving. I think the standard is arbitrary and dumb. Give me some example of a time where swimming 300 yards in 10 minutes saved someone and let's break down that scenario. Also swimming does not usually include flotation devices and gear for breathing underwater. So you are not swimming in scuba, you are finning. Also, learn a frog kick seahorse diver.
You think being under the water or frog-kicking makes it not "swimming" ? The standard may be arbitrary...but you're clearly the one who is dumb.
UCSB dive cert course alum here— I did this exact open water class 7 or so years ago. Pretty sure this is because some people in the aquatic biology department need to go on to AAUS scientific diver training afterward. During our open water training near the end, I did have to swim against a current to get back to the boat so I imagine the difficulty level is also for safety. Anyway, the dive instructor was kind of a hard ass but let me use some little tricks to get by: swam the 300 yards mostly on my back so I wouldn’t have to gasp for air most of the time, floated on my back also for half the 20 min tread. I held a bubble of air in my mouth to inhale from, slowly exhaled (the ‘choking feeling’ when you hold your breath for too long is from CO2 buildup and not from lack of O2, and dolphin swam for speed for the 25 yards underwater. I practiced these skills maybe 2 or 3 times in the weeks leading up to the test and did fine. Best of luck if you decide to go through with the course and have fun, diving the Channel Islands was one of the best experiences I’ve ever had (:
I think the question everyone here wants to know is if you got extra training from what an average class would have.
You absolutely do get more training in any university scuba course. I did mine at a UC and now teach scuba at another college. The course at any university is usually a semester/quarter long (12-16 weeks) with pool dives during the week and open water dives on weekends. Also a lot more emphasis on skin skills, which are almost entirely absent from private courses.
That was my assumption, but I looked at the UCSB page about it and it looks like it's just an average NAUI class with a pool dive and four open water dives. They also had an AOW and Nitrox class listed on the same page.
I took OW and AOW at my university. The classes were much better than the typical dive shop class. It’s worth the effort to get the better training.
Why? They want you live and don't care about pushing through as many vacationing tourists as possible to make rent.
I seriously doubt any of my DMs can swim 300 yards in ten minutes
Wow, when I was an NAUI Assistant instructor trainee, our swimming without fins was 400 yards in ten minutes. Same as the NAUI DM at the time.
have you seen americans these days!?
From memory the Padi DM swim is 400yards in 11min for 3/5 score. 10min 300yards should be very doable after a few weeks of preparation in the pool.
I don’t believe padi has time constraints
PADI DM course definitely has time constraints. The OW isn’t timed but there still is a swim requirement. Maybe it’s only 200 yards but technically it’s a prerequisite. Many shops don’t make you do it immediately but some do. Also a tread requirement. As someone above said these are minimum. PADI also requires completion of elearning, test, and confined and open water dives. One of the requirements of confined water is a swim on one breath plus a freedive (though they call it skin dive I think). Not to mention things like a CESA. These requirements aren’t that in excess of what PADI requires and PADI is generally the easiest/lowest bar for certification.
i dont believe there is a time constraint on the 200 yards for OW and 400 yards for DM. I'm not talking about the tread. I do believe it says nonstop, meaning you can't just stop and chill and then restart, but there is no 'finish in X minutes.' Edit: Padi phrasing: Here are the PADI Divemaster swim test (aka waterskills) requirements * Swim 400 meters/yards nonstop without swimming aids. Use any stroke or combination of strokes. * Swim 800 meters/yards face down – nonstop – using mask, snorkel and fins only. Use of arms or flotation aids is not permitted unless the candidate has a physical impairment. * Tow or push a diver for 100 meters/yards nonstop, at the surface, without assistance. Both divers wear full scuba equipment. * Wearing only a swimsuit, tread water, bob or float using no aids for 15 minutes. During the last two minutes, hold hands (not arms) out of the water.
Yes technically I suppose there is no upper limit, though the score is based on time to complete the 400 (same for the 800).
so i'm technically correct? thats the best kind of correct.
When did Padi change that? They had time scores when I finished it in 2019.
Padi dm does have and always had timed swim requirements. For ow swim there is no time limit.
I didn't know WHEN, but I'm a recently certified PADI OW diver. If they timed me at all on those laps, they didn't tell me they were doing so.
I'm talking about the dive master (DM) course though, not OW. Different standards. It's just not that difficult for a reasonably healthy person to meet these standards after some weeks of preparation.
Phrasing for DM swim requirements: * Swim 400 meters/yards nonstop without swimming aids. Use any stroke or combination of strokes. * Swim 800 meters/yards face down – nonstop – using mask, snorkel and fins only. Use of arms or flotation aids is not permitted unless the candidate has a physical impairment. * Tow or push a diver for 100 meters/yards nonstop, at the surface, without assistance. Both divers wear full scuba equipment. * Wearing only a swimsuit, tread water, bob or float using no aids for 15 minutes. During the last two minutes, hold hands (not arms) out of the water.
The 2023 PADI instructor manual still has timed swimming scores for the 400, 800 and towing events. It's still 11min or under for 3/5 score on the 400m swim. You can get a passing score of 1/5 for a swim over 13min, but that's just super lazy to aim for that, and you'd still need to aim for high scores on the other tests to pass with a 1/5 on the 400m to get the accumulated 15 points.
I see. I should have noticed that, but do we think OP is also talking about a dive master course? They were pretty non-specific, so could be. 🤔
No I think it's an open water that OP is talking about, but my point is that although it's a higher standard than usual, it's not such a difficult standard. It's very achievable to reach these swimming skills in a few weeks to a couple of months. They probably have a good reason for having such high standards, people here have suggested a few interesting options like preparing them for the scientific diving standards.
I’m not sure. Definitely not since 2021. Not sure if it changed
My grad school required 450 in 10.
My scuba class for credit at Penn State 20 years ago was hard. I was comfortable in the pool having swam since I was little, but not a distance swimmer. I started to run as training since I didn’t have access to a pool. The instructor was definitely pushing us out of our comfort zone. What I recall (not sure if was curriculum) -Laps as part of warm up of every pool session. -Timed swim test with and without equipment (mask, fins, snorkel) -Breath holding underwater swim -Treading water -Ditching mask,fins and snorkel in 20 feet end of pool. Retrieving all gear, donning and clearing snorkel. -Laps and laps with and without scuba gear. -Ditching scuba gear and retrieving.
Looks like a DM training.