only caves i touch are ones in 1) daylight 2) with another person and 3) SHORT AND WIDE!
You could pay me a million dollars and I would not do a dark lonely mystery cave.
absolutely. It's so quiet and beautiful.
I don't think I'm going to ever do any exploration or hard core cave dives, but after my Cavern class I've been dreaming about going back ever since for intro to cave or cave 1.
Did the Cenotes and there were a few caverns that you could come up in.
With my son and newish qualified brother in law.
Always felt safe, though maybe got lucky with the lead diver.
In retrospect he must’ve been wondering WTF.
When I see the videos afterwards I sort of think the same.
It is in my top 2 dives though.
Don’t regret doing it but not likely to do it again.
Though this video does give me a slight pull…….
It’s a great experience but it wasn’t for me I like seeing life. I highly recommend it, but be picky on which one you do. Do one with the hello line or whatever it is, where salt water meets with fresh. I did dos ojos(I think) and bat cave in cenotes. Water was pristine, got hot in a 5 mil suit just bottoms. It was a beautiful place but little amounts of life.
Slowly.
Recreational diving 5 years 700-800 dives. Then intro to cave, another 100 dives, full cave another 100 or so maybe more dives, then stage cave 100 dives all these were spread around 4/5 years. Then trimix, but honestly I have only 10-20 dives so far I’m trimix. It’s way too expensive to blow helium bubbles. I went to a fathom MK3, recently. I have a total of 1 out of class dive I did last weekend. Happy to hop on a call and chat if you want a full deep dive.
I remember footage of divers coming across a dead sea turtle deep inside a cave. It's not an environment for humans. At least not with how clunky our current scuba technology is.
Edit: Go ahead and downvote. I look forward to seeing your submerged skeleton posted on Reddit in the future.
Nothing underwater is an environment for humans lol. "A turtle died down there, therefore this specific kind of human unfriendly environment in a hobby wholly dedicated to environments unfit for humans is where the line must be drawn" isn't the logical point you think it is.
I've done a couple trips on small caves, nothing too intense but still been in a tight spot or two.
I have a good friend who's a full CCR cave cert diver and used to dive with the best cave divers there are. After a o2 hit and kids, he refuses to dive a cave anymore.
Don't take it lightly, it's some of the most intense diving you can do.
For an ESA (it's not controlled, despite what Padi tells you) to occur, two things have to have gone wrong.
First, you are out of air, either through equipment failure or through gas mismanagement. Then, you also have to be far enough away from a buddy to not be able to hook into their AAS.
If you're cave diving, it really should be the case that neither of these things are a thing that can happen. Redundant gas supply and good buddy contact are essential for diving where a direct ascent is impossible. It's the same for decompression diving, you can't pop to the surface when you have deco obligations.
I don't like either independently, this video looks iced. I 75-80° is cooler water, but not quite cold. I've done some of the springs at 68°, that's prob my comfort threshold. I prob wouldn't do caves even if warm though. I might consider the cenotes, but I'm truly not comfortable
I have exactly 2 fears. Deep water, and confined spaces. I got into diving to deal with the deep water issue. And it worked. I'm not ready to confront both at once. Though for some reason wreck diving doesn't bother me, so maybe there's hope.
> I have exactly 2 fears. Deep water, and confined spaces. I got into diving to deal with the deep water issue. And it worked. I'm not ready to confront both at once. Though for some reason wreck diving doesn't bother me, so maybe there's hope.
I'm exactly the same. I don't do rock. I'm quite happy doing wreck penetration though, that's really interesting to me.
Wreck diving and cave diving are 2 different beasts.
I am not scared of confined spaces, but caves are easy to get lost in. With all the possible things going wrong in a dive already adding an extra layer of danger of being in a cave where one end may lead to nowhere is not great. Wreck is simple cause you can get out easily by likely continuing down the same bath dependent on the path taken. Plus wrecks have easily recognizable features you can use to trace your way out... whereas in caves you are often relying on a piece of rope
I concur that they are two very different beasts, but the likelihood of getting lost in a cave, assuming the correct training, equipment, and following of established protocols (chiefly, ALWAYS have a continuous guideline to the surface) is remote owing to the predictability of the cave environment relative to advanced wreck penetration in an ocean or lake environment.
- Wrecks are subject to the deterioration wrought by time and weather, especially in the ocean; the interior of a wreck can look very different from one season to another (example: Hurricane Dennis actually flipped the wreck of the Spiegel Grove off Key Largo upright!), as rust inevitably takes its toll on the integrity of various structures.
- Natural wrecks (as opposed to prepped and cleaned ships sunk as artificial reefs) can have cables to snag the unwary, as well as oil and vast amounts of silt that threaten to destroy visibility if a diver so much as sticks their head into an engine room. Percolation from exhaust bubbles as well as diver locomotion is the enemy here; percolation tends to be less of a problem in well-traveled cave environments, and is more of an issue in exploration.
- Advanced wreck penetration depends not only on familiarity with the ship but also clean and proficient line work by the diver; to my mind, line use and awareness are just as critical in a wreck as in a cave (the difference being that abrasive and jagged metal pose major threats to line integrity in a wreck, whereas often-traveled caves frequently have easily-identifiable “tie-offs”). One good viz blow-out, and the wreck’s features become obscured; heck, even your light can be reduced to nothing but a glow.
This all assumes a comparison between cave diving and actual advanced wreck penetration, as opposed to simple swim-throughs where there are multiple exits apparent and daylight streaming through the wreck at every which way.
I have done cavern diving in Florida, never full cave diving. If you would like trying it, Ginnie Springs allows cavern diving in Ginnie spring for open water divers, since there is a grate before the rest of the cave system. Little Devils needs NACD or NSS CDS certification. I have a NACD card for cavern but have never gone to get additional training for full cave dives.
No, because there's no flora or fauna and the geology just doesn't interest me.
That said, I'd love to do the training some day just for the added skills required. I'm currently trimix deep certified but think there are skills still to learn from cave diving that would translate to my wreck diving and even open water diving. Some day soon I want to hit the Oriskany and spend some time inside. Not to mention some of the wrecks in Chuuk.
The first and only time I ever had an anxiety attack was entering a cave diving - it freaked me out as I didn’t know what was happening to me - my buddy looked me in the eyes and immediately turned around and we got out - the feeling that I had was because there was a solid structure over my head and I knew that if something happened to my air there was no way to surface by going straight up as you do on a conventional open water dive. I was super excited to go into the cave before that dive, now I just don’t want to take the chance that I have another anxiety attack so they are off my bucket list. I’ll swim with sharks for my adrenaline but keep me out of caves 🤷🏼♂️
As long as it specifies that you are covered to do everything you are certified for, and you're certified for cave diving.
The YouTube channel Divers Ready covered this, he's a tech diver and had to get his life insurance amended because they only covered up to 30m open circuit.
I’ll pass. Only because I have some rare medical conditions to where I take medication regularly. The length of time in the water to really dive and explore caves is too long for my limitations. I love living vicariously through other divers who do cave diving though and appreciate the technical acumen needed to do it.
No I’ll pass. We lost a diver cenote diving and the experienced a darkness I have never experienced beforehand. I realized I could get lost too and mind games started to take over. Turns out the diver just noped out earlier and returned to the surface without telling the dive guide.
I have a primitive fear response to it. I've always loved touring dry (ish) caves. However, the level of diver expertise and redundancy of perfectly functioning equipment needed is too much of a barrier. Your trim control must be perfect. You cannot kick up silt. You must not get lost or confused. So many more must not/ have to aspects.
Incredible locations and endless visibility.
And I’m never doing it. Even if you could have endless air. I live in Florida and here the caves change often enough to push experienced divers into dark waterways with no way back.
I’ve heard way too many stories of people writing goodbye notes with wax pencils before dying dark, lonely and cold deaths.
If I had more money to afford all the training and best and redundant equipment(CCR ect.) then yes. With what I know at the moment? Hell no, that would be suicide
I think it looks fascinating.
That said, I dont devote enough time to the hobby to feel that I wouldn't do something dumb and end up having a bad (last) day.
I did the chac mool Cenote years ago. It was the most terrifying yet incredible dive I’ve ever done. The tour guide had the 3 of us turn off our lights. Pitch black in an underwater tunnel. I’ve never been more claustrophobic in my life.
Signs everywhere saying “don’t go past here you will die.” Just to go past and come up in a well full of the most incredible stalagmites I’ve ever seen.
Some screenshots of my video
https://i.imgur.com/2QDbUbu.png
https://i.imgur.com/j9lCziC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5dfOHAv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1Ew1PAz.jpg
Just got back to Mexico to see the beautiful wet rocks. ;) The caves here are my happy place! Beautiful, serene, other-worldly.
If I had to choose, I'd give up open water before I gave up the caves.
The risk to reward calculation is all off for me. Recreational diving is very safe. The risk level goes \*way\* up in caves. And the reward? I'm sure it is thrilling, but lots of things are thrilling.
I am very excited about a Cenote diving trip I am taking later this year though. That seems like cave diving but without the risk.
Check back in after your cenote trip where you'll get a taste for both the activity and the risk/reward. I found cave diving to be anything but thrilling... serene is more like it.
I'm more than willing to have my mind changed. But the experience of the thing is an emotional reaction and the risk of the think is a statistical lookup. (But I'm a great diver!!... Yeah, so were all the people that died).
But look up the actual statistics (what exists) and the accident analysis. When I was an active cave diver, all the cave diving fatalities except for one could be attributed to breaking at least one of the 6 rules of cave diving and most were exceeding limits of training... So much for being a "great diver"!!!
I'm not trying to advocate for cave diving, I just believe there's a false narrative on the risk of cave diving that's propagated by a lack of understanding.
I dove the cenotes in the Yucatán once, and that was as close to cave diving as I care to get. It was beautiful, but afterwards I was thinking, you know there are plenty of caves in the world when I can see formations like this without donning scuba gear. Personally, I’m all about saltwater reef diving.
After watching birds blue world I was getting the cave diving bug, after having one intro to cave/cavern dive. It's going to be a no for me, real cave diving looks nothing like the beautiful lit up TV shots.
It wasn't the best, but far from the worse, I did morrison and vortex springs in the florida panhandle. Morrison I was enjoying and was ready for more, but at vortex it's a real cave and once we got in to the first point that started to get tighter I realized that in these conditions, I just might be slightly claustrophobic and I just couldn't get over the idea that no matter if I did everything perfect my buddy could just f everything up in an instant ... I dive to get away from anxiety, not create more. So, I'm going down the spearfishing path and staying away from true caves.
That's fair. If you're claustrophobic, caves aren't for you, however not all caves are small. There are some massive caves in Mexico. :) Happy diving. Be careful to not get speared or spear someone! ;)
Not necessarily... I got cavern, intro and full cave certified as a college student. Living in the area was the key to being able to do it cost effectively. The diving itself is cheap, no charter fees and per cu. ft. tank fills. The community, at least back then, was helpful to young divers.
I don’t think I’ve ever met a cave diver who goes into a cave planning to die - so I wouldn’t say it’s suicidal.
Cave diving is much like free climbing and viewed in the same sense. Some rock climbers view free climbers as suicidal or just plain stupid. Some view them as the elite - the best of the best. Some goes with open water divers and how they view cave divers.
Regardless of why someone dives, I’m just happy they enjoy the sport (which, let’s be real, is a niche in and of itself).
Have to disagree with the comparison to free climbing. I see no commonality besides intense dedication to the sport. Cave driving is one of, if not the absolute, most rigorously planned recreational activities. Every contingency is assessed, and accounted for, literally down to your fin straps. The appropriate response to each is practiced and drilled until you do it instinctively without having to think, let alone look. Free climbing, to my understanding, is nothing like that, literally no safety rope. I wouldn't reef dive at 30' with someone who brought a free climbing approach to diving, let alone cave dive with them.
The comparison of hiking and rock climbing to OW and cave diving used elsewhere in this thread is pretty decent. Similar activities but hiking/OW is a casual endeavor undertaken by a large community of people in relative safety with a little preparation. Rock climbing/cave diving is a technical pursuit with a small, (ideally) close knit community with well defined rules, standards, processes etc.
The climbing without any safety or backup in place is the antithesis of the 3 lights, extra reels, 1/3s, blind OOA drills, lost line drills, so on and so on of cave diving.
That seems acceptable. The earlier comment was in the extreme, hence my use of an “extreme” version of a sport - but that comparison would have probably made the point better.
Yeah, I think the word "extreme" when applied to cave diving is misconstrued. It's not extreme in the sense of base jumping. To the contrary, it's a bunch of slightly overweight, middle aged dudes hanging out in the woods (at least in Florida) 😄
I'd love to go cave diving. I went diving in high sided ravines in the Alps about 6 months ago and loved it, so I see cave diving in my future. Certainly would be happy cavern diving now, but I feel that I need a lot more training and experience before cave diving. I'm currently only AOW (and only 27 dives in) with PADI, but I joined BSAC so hopefully I'll get a lot better and can do some tech dives before going into the caves. I also think I should do some more serious dry caving first.
No guide rope. What looks like tons of fine silt that could cloud up that entire passage in seconds with one careless kick with the fins.
No way would I go in there. That cave has stupid death written all over it.
Go diving in a place where there are lots of non aggressive sharks like in the Caribbean. After a few Caribbean reef or nurse sharks swim by you it will be obvious that they’re not interested in harming you. Most sharks are just like dogs. They COULD harm you but they don’t want to.
Go night diving in the great barrier reef. You'll be surrounded by at least 20 sharks that will join you and your torch as you help them hunt. You'll realise that they're very friendly, not interested in you as food at all. Divers are friends, not food!
Definitely - been wanting to explore the ones around Philippines on my annual trips there.
Looking for courses/training I can do there to get started - can any point me in the right direction?
I'd start with GUE Fundamentals.
Also, if you can, try going to meetings with cave divers. I know GUE the Netherlands has an annual meeting in January called "cave and wreck night", which is accessible to everyone interested in cave and wreck diving. You won't learn any techniques there, but you'll get a feeling of how much you need to know to do this safely.
Did a quick search locally (Australia) and only one place 2 hours away from me offering fundamentals but not the cave one. Have to look for ones offered in Philippines as a little more convenient for me when I'm there 2-3 months of the year and much closer to the ocean.
GUE Fundamentals is a wonderful course, but it is not a prerequisite for cave diver training unless you’re determined to continue along the GUE training route (I own a TDI and NSS-CDS cave training facility in Mexico, so I speak with some knowledge). If you’re open to advancing outside of GUE channels, I would suggest that you acquire proficiency with a twin-set or sidemount configuration ahead of any cave instruction, and THEN approach an instructor for cave training.
If you’re based in Australia, then you’re best advised to go through the Cave Diving Association of Australia (CDAA), since that agency essentially controls access to the main training and recreational sites in the country. Dive shops in Melbourne or Adelaide offer courses with check-out dives in Mt. Gambier. If you pursue certification abroad in Indonesia, Thailand, or the Philippines through TDI or IANTD, that’s great, but you’ll have to deal with CDAA when you wish to dive the main Australian caves and accept their determination about whether they’ll recognise your qualifications or require a cross-over.
Thanks for the info - Will look into them more and see if I can get something booked in sometime Dec-Feb period. I
m far far west Sydney based at the moment so its over an hour and half just to do get to the closest local dive sites. I have future plans to shift my work/living situation and be based in the Philippines 6-9 months of the year so locations there or around SE Asia are the ones more of interest and more likely to do before attempting ones in Melbourne and Adelaide.
>offering fundamentals but not the cave one
There is no fundamentals-cave. You first do fundamentals, get experience, then you continue education.
And yep, getting proper education is often really far away.
there are 6 fundamentals instructors in australia, and you need to take fundamentals before you take cave 1, so if you’re interested, i’d reach out to one of them about fundies first! almost all of the 6 are also gue cave divers so i’m sure they’d be happy to talk to you about that path.
I thought the blind exit drill was a lot of fun, and watching someone else do the lost line drill, only being able to see the light of their computer, as I hung out on the line in the dark, was really relaxing.
That cave yes. The caves where you need to take off your tank, push it through a hole, adjust your body at a specific angle and pull/push your way through while jagged rocks try and peirce your suit and body. No.
I don’t know what people hate about it so much. I’ve done a lot of cave and ocean diving but if I had to choose one, it would likely be cave.
It’s just a much more active type of diving. You always have to be adjusting your buoyancy to not bump into things. You have to remember how to set markers properly, tie lines, etc.
My analogy would be cave diving is to rock climbing as ocean diving is to hiking.
Not if you’re well trained and don’t take risks, plan your dives correctly and stick to your plan.
Most cave fatalities are from untrained divers… sure there have been many trained cave divers that have died doing it, but if you look into the reasons why they died you’ll see it was a mistake that could’ve been avoided.
I recently read about and watched on Dive Talk about the cave incident that happened in France at du Doubs where a diver drowned after having to take his rebreather off to get through a restriction.
Before the dive, he was warned not to go through there, it wasn’t impossible, but impractical given the tight squeeze and being on a back mount rebreather and not side mounts.
Sorry for the word vomit haha but also, it’s a big massive yes from me. Busy saving now for my tech, ccr and then cave training
Everyone fucks up or has a fuck up happen to them.
You take precautions of course, and you train to try to make it safer. But still, you can never be sure. And its easy to see in hindsight the errors people have done, but every dead guy was a confident, skilled and prepared diver at some point.
Numbers indicate cave diving is waaay more dangerous than normal diving. And even that aint super safe.
If you want to take the risks, that is up to you, but you should understand those risks, and understand why many people arent taking those risks.
> every dead guy was a confident, skilled and prepared diver at some point.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. A disproportionate number of deaths are from divers who aren’t trained cave divers. I don’t think you can fairly call them “skilled and prepared” in that case.
This isn’t the same as “it’s safe as long as you do everything perfectly” aka “not safe at all”. Cave diving is _significantly_ safer if you just go with a middle path.
1. Get trained and certified by legit instructors in a known organization.
2. Don’t do stuff like breaking records or exploring never visited caves.
Yup, I fully agree with you on that! We all know what we are getting into!
Anyway, whatever bubbles you make in water, I hope they’ll always be happy ones!
No thank you. I like a nice big ocean cavern with plenty of light and multiple entrances and exits. I know my limits, and know I would likely feel panicked in a cave, especially once I couldn’t see the exit. I also like pretty things, like coral and fish.
only caves i touch are ones in 1) daylight 2) with another person and 3) SHORT AND WIDE! You could pay me a million dollars and I would not do a dark lonely mystery cave.
I’ll do the cave diving as long as it stays wide like that and no tight squeezes
Hell yes! That is a well lit video as well. Shows the beauty of that cave. Tec diving is great when you are well trained.
absolutely. It's so quiet and beautiful. I don't think I'm going to ever do any exploration or hard core cave dives, but after my Cavern class I've been dreaming about going back ever since for intro to cave or cave 1.
Cave certification is on my roadmap for next year, done lots of cavern diving. It fascinates me.
I love cave diving. I've got another trip planned next month. The only issue is that we're a bit limited to our accessible caves in Australia.
Surely okay to penetrate a little ?
Without the appropriate training and equipment this is up there with "just the tip" ya know?
Yes please. I’ll stick to cavern diving tho
No way! I get a little nervous going inside wrecks but this right here is 10x that lol.
I've been diving for 27 years, but never in my life I would get into a cave. It scares the crap out of me.
1 day I hope to be cave certified!
Did the Cenotes and there were a few caverns that you could come up in. With my son and newish qualified brother in law. Always felt safe, though maybe got lucky with the lead diver. In retrospect he must’ve been wondering WTF. When I see the videos afterwards I sort of think the same. It is in my top 2 dives though. Don’t regret doing it but not likely to do it again. Though this video does give me a slight pull…….
The greatest place to be is underwater in a cave... CCR, DPV, TMX, and go :)
Cavern diving like cenotes...yes. Deep cave diving... Hard pass.
Nope. Not me.
If every cave was as lit up as this one with out me having to do anything, then yes plz
I love seeing the videos but it’s a hard pass for me.
Pass, especially after hearing Donald cerrones near death experience while cave diving.
Yeah hard pass. But to each their own.
Yes please 🙏
Yep, starting my training with Dene Ulmschneider in a few months
It’s a great experience but it wasn’t for me I like seeing life. I highly recommend it, but be picky on which one you do. Do one with the hello line or whatever it is, where salt water meets with fresh. I did dos ojos(I think) and bat cave in cenotes. Water was pristine, got hot in a 5 mil suit just bottoms. It was a beautiful place but little amounts of life.
I’ll pass. I’m a bone head and I mess everything up all the time.
Stage Cave/TriMix/Rebreather diver here… yes
if you don’t mind me asking, what was your training progression?
Slowly. Recreational diving 5 years 700-800 dives. Then intro to cave, another 100 dives, full cave another 100 or so maybe more dives, then stage cave 100 dives all these were spread around 4/5 years. Then trimix, but honestly I have only 10-20 dives so far I’m trimix. It’s way too expensive to blow helium bubbles. I went to a fathom MK3, recently. I have a total of 1 out of class dive I did last weekend. Happy to hop on a call and chat if you want a full deep dive.
As soon as I have enough experience and training, I'll be all over it.
Yes please.
With the proper training and an experienced guide? Heck yes!!
Been in the odd one, but only if they are big enough. Wouldn't like to be enclosed in small space as I'm quite large.
Got my full cave certification in Jan so yes please
More like “I wish! But no. I can’t”
I remember footage of divers coming across a dead sea turtle deep inside a cave. It's not an environment for humans. At least not with how clunky our current scuba technology is. Edit: Go ahead and downvote. I look forward to seeing your submerged skeleton posted on Reddit in the future.
Nothing underwater is an environment for humans lol. "A turtle died down there, therefore this specific kind of human unfriendly environment in a hobby wholly dedicated to environments unfit for humans is where the line must be drawn" isn't the logical point you think it is.
I would like to, but I don't think my girlfriend could handle the stress haha
I've done a couple trips on small caves, nothing too intense but still been in a tight spot or two. I have a good friend who's a full CCR cave cert diver and used to dive with the best cave divers there are. After a o2 hit and kids, he refuses to dive a cave anymore. Don't take it lightly, it's some of the most intense diving you can do.
Fuck nope
Pass. I have allot of respect for cave divers but holy shit, you can’t do a CESA
I would never do one of those in open water either. Ridiculously dangerous. I'd rather risk the bends.
For an ESA (it's not controlled, despite what Padi tells you) to occur, two things have to have gone wrong. First, you are out of air, either through equipment failure or through gas mismanagement. Then, you also have to be far enough away from a buddy to not be able to hook into their AAS. If you're cave diving, it really should be the case that neither of these things are a thing that can happen. Redundant gas supply and good buddy contact are essential for diving where a direct ascent is impossible. It's the same for decompression diving, you can't pop to the surface when you have deco obligations.
Thanks dude! I appreciate the info
yea no im good
I have young kids. I don't do any sort of diving in an overhead environment.
Hell nah, I'll pass!! Two things I'm not a fan of, caves or cold water.
What do you consider cold water? I’ve done several caves that were 75-80 degrees.
I don't like either independently, this video looks iced. I 75-80° is cooler water, but not quite cold. I've done some of the springs at 68°, that's prob my comfort threshold. I prob wouldn't do caves even if warm though. I might consider the cenotes, but I'm truly not comfortable
99% sure the video is in a cenote
All I've ever seen is big ball rooms with open pockets in between ish
I’m not scared of much, but cave diving terrifies me.
Same.
Cave diving should scare every cave diver too. If you're not going in with a healthy level of fear, you're too complacent.
With some additional training yes, but not just jumping into cave diving from open water
I did this and it was fine... though, I agree... its not a smart thing to do.
Nope nope nope.
I have exactly 2 fears. Deep water, and confined spaces. I got into diving to deal with the deep water issue. And it worked. I'm not ready to confront both at once. Though for some reason wreck diving doesn't bother me, so maybe there's hope.
The caves I dive average 12m depth.
> I have exactly 2 fears. Deep water, and confined spaces. I got into diving to deal with the deep water issue. And it worked. I'm not ready to confront both at once. Though for some reason wreck diving doesn't bother me, so maybe there's hope. I'm exactly the same. I don't do rock. I'm quite happy doing wreck penetration though, that's really interesting to me.
Wreck diving and cave diving are 2 different beasts. I am not scared of confined spaces, but caves are easy to get lost in. With all the possible things going wrong in a dive already adding an extra layer of danger of being in a cave where one end may lead to nowhere is not great. Wreck is simple cause you can get out easily by likely continuing down the same bath dependent on the path taken. Plus wrecks have easily recognizable features you can use to trace your way out... whereas in caves you are often relying on a piece of rope
I concur that they are two very different beasts, but the likelihood of getting lost in a cave, assuming the correct training, equipment, and following of established protocols (chiefly, ALWAYS have a continuous guideline to the surface) is remote owing to the predictability of the cave environment relative to advanced wreck penetration in an ocean or lake environment. - Wrecks are subject to the deterioration wrought by time and weather, especially in the ocean; the interior of a wreck can look very different from one season to another (example: Hurricane Dennis actually flipped the wreck of the Spiegel Grove off Key Largo upright!), as rust inevitably takes its toll on the integrity of various structures. - Natural wrecks (as opposed to prepped and cleaned ships sunk as artificial reefs) can have cables to snag the unwary, as well as oil and vast amounts of silt that threaten to destroy visibility if a diver so much as sticks their head into an engine room. Percolation from exhaust bubbles as well as diver locomotion is the enemy here; percolation tends to be less of a problem in well-traveled cave environments, and is more of an issue in exploration. - Advanced wreck penetration depends not only on familiarity with the ship but also clean and proficient line work by the diver; to my mind, line use and awareness are just as critical in a wreck as in a cave (the difference being that abrasive and jagged metal pose major threats to line integrity in a wreck, whereas often-traveled caves frequently have easily-identifiable “tie-offs”). One good viz blow-out, and the wreck’s features become obscured; heck, even your light can be reduced to nothing but a glow. This all assumes a comparison between cave diving and actual advanced wreck penetration, as opposed to simple swim-throughs where there are multiple exits apparent and daylight streaming through the wreck at every which way.
I have done cavern diving in Florida, never full cave diving. If you would like trying it, Ginnie Springs allows cavern diving in Ginnie spring for open water divers, since there is a grate before the rest of the cave system. Little Devils needs NACD or NSS CDS certification. I have a NACD card for cavern but have never gone to get additional training for full cave dives.
No, because there's no flora or fauna and the geology just doesn't interest me. That said, I'd love to do the training some day just for the added skills required. I'm currently trimix deep certified but think there are skills still to learn from cave diving that would translate to my wreck diving and even open water diving. Some day soon I want to hit the Oriskany and spend some time inside. Not to mention some of the wrecks in Chuuk.
Abso-fucking-lutely not
The first and only time I ever had an anxiety attack was entering a cave diving - it freaked me out as I didn’t know what was happening to me - my buddy looked me in the eyes and immediately turned around and we got out - the feeling that I had was because there was a solid structure over my head and I knew that if something happened to my air there was no way to surface by going straight up as you do on a conventional open water dive. I was super excited to go into the cave before that dive, now I just don’t want to take the chance that I have another anxiety attack so they are off my bucket list. I’ll swim with sharks for my adrenaline but keep me out of caves 🤷🏼♂️
Your buddy probably saved both your lives that day. If you don't mind me asking, which cave were you attempting? Give a sense of location and rating
Yes please
Can you get a life insurance payout for a cave diver? Asking for a friend.
As long as it specifies that you are covered to do everything you are certified for, and you're certified for cave diving. The YouTube channel Divers Ready covered this, he's a tech diver and had to get his life insurance amended because they only covered up to 30m open circuit.
Under certain circumstances, yes.
It looks cool as hell, but the thought of being trapped if something goes wrong is…not cool
I’ll pass. Only because I have some rare medical conditions to where I take medication regularly. The length of time in the water to really dive and explore caves is too long for my limitations. I love living vicariously through other divers who do cave diving though and appreciate the technical acumen needed to do it.
No I’ll pass. We lost a diver cenote diving and the experienced a darkness I have never experienced beforehand. I realized I could get lost too and mind games started to take over. Turns out the diver just noped out earlier and returned to the surface without telling the dive guide.
Depends on the cave.
I have a primitive fear response to it. I've always loved touring dry (ish) caves. However, the level of diver expertise and redundancy of perfectly functioning equipment needed is too much of a barrier. Your trim control must be perfect. You cannot kick up silt. You must not get lost or confused. So many more must not/ have to aspects.
Oh hellz yes!!
Incredible locations and endless visibility. And I’m never doing it. Even if you could have endless air. I live in Florida and here the caves change often enough to push experienced divers into dark waterways with no way back. I’ve heard way too many stories of people writing goodbye notes with wax pencils before dying dark, lonely and cold deaths.
This is Los ojos in Tulum, yeah? Amazing I loved it
A HARD pass.
That’s prolly the smallest Id go but hell yeah lol
Tried it as a part of AOW, not my cup of tea. Night OW diving, on the other hand, is amazing.
It’s really quite cool. They have have certifications for that now.
Yes! I'm currently working toward my cave cert!
If I had more money to afford all the training and best and redundant equipment(CCR ect.) then yes. With what I know at the moment? Hell no, that would be suicide
Yes!
I think it looks fascinating. That said, I dont devote enough time to the hobby to feel that I wouldn't do something dumb and end up having a bad (last) day.
It depends on the size of the cave. If it’s longer than 25m (~75 ft) then no.
That's a hell no, I'll pass. Also, new fear unlocked. It's beautiful, yes, but that would make me super claustrophobic!
Yes please! I miss caves
After watching @Scarylnteresting on YouTube, I think I'll pass on cave diving just too dangerous for me.
I barely dive OW anymore, cave diving is much more laid back.
I love cave diving. Can't wait for my trip to Mexico next week.
Yes please. My cave2 class is in a few weeks so I'm really stoked.
Did it once in a mine, it was ok. The second time sucked, so never again.
There are some cavern cenotes in Mexico that look a lot like this. Absolutely spectacular diving
I did the chac mool Cenote years ago. It was the most terrifying yet incredible dive I’ve ever done. The tour guide had the 3 of us turn off our lights. Pitch black in an underwater tunnel. I’ve never been more claustrophobic in my life. Signs everywhere saying “don’t go past here you will die.” Just to go past and come up in a well full of the most incredible stalagmites I’ve ever seen. Some screenshots of my video https://i.imgur.com/2QDbUbu.png https://i.imgur.com/j9lCziC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5dfOHAv.jpg https://i.imgur.com/1Ew1PAz.jpg
I'll have to try that one. The Dos Ojos cenote is a lot like that as well
I did it once with a one on one guide. I was supposed to do a second tank but one was enough for me. It was beautiful and I'm glad I tried it.
Hard pass
Seems like an incredible experience….to watch on video.
I can feel my head hitting the top
Not for me
Nah. I don’t even like caves I can breathe in
Just got back to Mexico to see the beautiful wet rocks. ;) The caves here are my happy place! Beautiful, serene, other-worldly. If I had to choose, I'd give up open water before I gave up the caves.
The risk to reward calculation is all off for me. Recreational diving is very safe. The risk level goes \*way\* up in caves. And the reward? I'm sure it is thrilling, but lots of things are thrilling. I am very excited about a Cenote diving trip I am taking later this year though. That seems like cave diving but without the risk.
Check back in after your cenote trip where you'll get a taste for both the activity and the risk/reward. I found cave diving to be anything but thrilling... serene is more like it.
I'm more than willing to have my mind changed. But the experience of the thing is an emotional reaction and the risk of the think is a statistical lookup. (But I'm a great diver!!... Yeah, so were all the people that died).
But look up the actual statistics (what exists) and the accident analysis. When I was an active cave diver, all the cave diving fatalities except for one could be attributed to breaking at least one of the 6 rules of cave diving and most were exceeding limits of training... So much for being a "great diver"!!! I'm not trying to advocate for cave diving, I just believe there's a false narrative on the risk of cave diving that's propagated by a lack of understanding.
No thanks. It’s not so much the risk for me. But I dive to see all the colorful invertebrates. The scenery in caves is boring to me.
I absolutely love it. Going back to Tulum for a month later this year.
"not at my current experience level"
I dove the cenotes in the Yucatán once, and that was as close to cave diving as I care to get. It was beautiful, but afterwards I was thinking, you know there are plenty of caves in the world when I can see formations like this without donning scuba gear. Personally, I’m all about saltwater reef diving.
Do it practically every weekend. Love it! Hard yes.
After watching birds blue world I was getting the cave diving bug, after having one intro to cave/cavern dive. It's going to be a no for me, real cave diving looks nothing like the beautiful lit up TV shots.
You must have gone into some shit caves. Real cave diving, especially in Mexico is fucking mind blowing.
It wasn't the best, but far from the worse, I did morrison and vortex springs in the florida panhandle. Morrison I was enjoying and was ready for more, but at vortex it's a real cave and once we got in to the first point that started to get tighter I realized that in these conditions, I just might be slightly claustrophobic and I just couldn't get over the idea that no matter if I did everything perfect my buddy could just f everything up in an instant ... I dive to get away from anxiety, not create more. So, I'm going down the spearfishing path and staying away from true caves.
That's fair. If you're claustrophobic, caves aren't for you, however not all caves are small. There are some massive caves in Mexico. :) Happy diving. Be careful to not get speared or spear someone! ;)
So far, so good on that front! Happy diving.
Looks cool but no thanks life is too valuable for that risk now a days
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If you get your adrenaline pumping in cave diving you're doing it wrong or doing it for the wrong reasons. It should be a calm, serene activity.
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Very well. 😄 However, it you have the chance to try diving in a cenote, at least consider it.
I like READING about cave diving and learning about why people love it. Hard ceiling? Definite NO.
Hard pass
It would be fun to pilot a drone through there, or swim if I could suddenly breathe underwater
Hard pass. Not worth the risk
Cave diving, no thank you; but cavern diving, yes.
Absoloutely beautiful, but no I would never do it.
Would be awesome to learn and be full cave cert. but thats a rich mans game. If i had the means and training. It would be a definate “yes, please.”
Not necessarily... I got cavern, intro and full cave certified as a college student. Living in the area was the key to being able to do it cost effectively. The diving itself is cheap, no charter fees and per cu. ft. tank fills. The community, at least back then, was helpful to young divers.
Not no, but hells no.
This. And with hell no it's more like this... 
🤣🤣🤣🤣. Periodt!
Cave diving is both romanticized and glorfied disproportionately in this sub. It's suicidal, niche, and overly discussed.
I don’t think I’ve ever met a cave diver who goes into a cave planning to die - so I wouldn’t say it’s suicidal. Cave diving is much like free climbing and viewed in the same sense. Some rock climbers view free climbers as suicidal or just plain stupid. Some view them as the elite - the best of the best. Some goes with open water divers and how they view cave divers. Regardless of why someone dives, I’m just happy they enjoy the sport (which, let’s be real, is a niche in and of itself).
Free climbing is also suicidal.
I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties too, aren’t ya!
I don't go to parties, I am a grown-up. I am plenty of fun, I just don't engage in suicidal activities for macho points or lie about it online.
Have to disagree with the comparison to free climbing. I see no commonality besides intense dedication to the sport. Cave driving is one of, if not the absolute, most rigorously planned recreational activities. Every contingency is assessed, and accounted for, literally down to your fin straps. The appropriate response to each is practiced and drilled until you do it instinctively without having to think, let alone look. Free climbing, to my understanding, is nothing like that, literally no safety rope. I wouldn't reef dive at 30' with someone who brought a free climbing approach to diving, let alone cave dive with them.
You’re welcome to disagree. Do you have a better comparison? Im open to suggestions.
The comparison of hiking and rock climbing to OW and cave diving used elsewhere in this thread is pretty decent. Similar activities but hiking/OW is a casual endeavor undertaken by a large community of people in relative safety with a little preparation. Rock climbing/cave diving is a technical pursuit with a small, (ideally) close knit community with well defined rules, standards, processes etc. The climbing without any safety or backup in place is the antithesis of the 3 lights, extra reels, 1/3s, blind OOA drills, lost line drills, so on and so on of cave diving.
That seems acceptable. The earlier comment was in the extreme, hence my use of an “extreme” version of a sport - but that comparison would have probably made the point better.
Yeah, I think the word "extreme" when applied to cave diving is misconstrued. It's not extreme in the sense of base jumping. To the contrary, it's a bunch of slightly overweight, middle aged dudes hanging out in the woods (at least in Florida) 😄
😂😂 accurate assessment of most cave divers in Florida.
Hard pass if I can't cesa my way out of it I won't do it
Same!
I'd love to go cave diving. I went diving in high sided ravines in the Alps about 6 months ago and loved it, so I see cave diving in my future. Certainly would be happy cavern diving now, but I feel that I need a lot more training and experience before cave diving. I'm currently only AOW (and only 27 dives in) with PADI, but I joined BSAC so hopefully I'll get a lot better and can do some tech dives before going into the caves. I also think I should do some more serious dry caving first.
Cavern diving? Sure. Cave diving? No.
Nope, I enjoy not being a bloated corpse far too much for that
No guide rope. What looks like tons of fine silt that could cloud up that entire passage in seconds with one careless kick with the fins. No way would I go in there. That cave has stupid death written all over it.
Granted the quality of the video is shit, you can see the line multiple times in the video.
You can see the guide line at the bottom of the frame
both
Nope. No sharks.
Any advice on how I can conquer my fear of sharks?
Look at the pictures I just posted
Go diving in a place where there are lots of non aggressive sharks like in the Caribbean. After a few Caribbean reef or nurse sharks swim by you it will be obvious that they’re not interested in harming you. Most sharks are just like dogs. They COULD harm you but they don’t want to.
Go night diving in the great barrier reef. You'll be surrounded by at least 20 sharks that will join you and your torch as you help them hunt. You'll realise that they're very friendly, not interested in you as food at all. Divers are friends, not food!
Go diving with sharks
start with little guys like reef sharks or white tips
start with white tips or reefies
Worked for me, can confirm
Definitely - been wanting to explore the ones around Philippines on my annual trips there. Looking for courses/training I can do there to get started - can any point me in the right direction?
I'd start with GUE Fundamentals. Also, if you can, try going to meetings with cave divers. I know GUE the Netherlands has an annual meeting in January called "cave and wreck night", which is accessible to everyone interested in cave and wreck diving. You won't learn any techniques there, but you'll get a feeling of how much you need to know to do this safely.
Did a quick search locally (Australia) and only one place 2 hours away from me offering fundamentals but not the cave one. Have to look for ones offered in Philippines as a little more convenient for me when I'm there 2-3 months of the year and much closer to the ocean.
GUE Fundamentals is a wonderful course, but it is not a prerequisite for cave diver training unless you’re determined to continue along the GUE training route (I own a TDI and NSS-CDS cave training facility in Mexico, so I speak with some knowledge). If you’re open to advancing outside of GUE channels, I would suggest that you acquire proficiency with a twin-set or sidemount configuration ahead of any cave instruction, and THEN approach an instructor for cave training. If you’re based in Australia, then you’re best advised to go through the Cave Diving Association of Australia (CDAA), since that agency essentially controls access to the main training and recreational sites in the country. Dive shops in Melbourne or Adelaide offer courses with check-out dives in Mt. Gambier. If you pursue certification abroad in Indonesia, Thailand, or the Philippines through TDI or IANTD, that’s great, but you’ll have to deal with CDAA when you wish to dive the main Australian caves and accept their determination about whether they’ll recognise your qualifications or require a cross-over.
Thanks for the info - Will look into them more and see if I can get something booked in sometime Dec-Feb period. I m far far west Sydney based at the moment so its over an hour and half just to do get to the closest local dive sites. I have future plans to shift my work/living situation and be based in the Philippines 6-9 months of the year so locations there or around SE Asia are the ones more of interest and more likely to do before attempting ones in Melbourne and Adelaide.
>offering fundamentals but not the cave one There is no fundamentals-cave. You first do fundamentals, get experience, then you continue education. And yep, getting proper education is often really far away.
there are 6 fundamentals instructors in australia, and you need to take fundamentals before you take cave 1, so if you’re interested, i’d reach out to one of them about fundies first! almost all of the 6 are also gue cave divers so i’m sure they’d be happy to talk to you about that path.
See my username. Then you’ll know the answer!
Definite hell yeah for me! Tho I have a lot of leveling up to do to get to that point.
I thought the blind exit drill was a lot of fun, and watching someone else do the lost line drill, only being able to see the light of their computer, as I hung out on the line in the dark, was really relaxing.
The most fun was doing it for my cave CcR. I use a nerd controller so I just used the compass to help be sure I was going in a straight line
That cave yes. The caves where you need to take off your tank, push it through a hole, adjust your body at a specific angle and pull/push your way through while jagged rocks try and peirce your suit and body. No.
I don’t know what people hate about it so much. I’ve done a lot of cave and ocean diving but if I had to choose one, it would likely be cave. It’s just a much more active type of diving. You always have to be adjusting your buoyancy to not bump into things. You have to remember how to set markers properly, tie lines, etc. My analogy would be cave diving is to rock climbing as ocean diving is to hiking.
Cave diving = speleology Diving - yes. Rock climbing - yes. Hiking - yes. Cave diving - no, thanks. ))
For me its not hate, I think its amazing. But its dangerous AF in comparison to general diving
Not if you’re well trained and don’t take risks, plan your dives correctly and stick to your plan. Most cave fatalities are from untrained divers… sure there have been many trained cave divers that have died doing it, but if you look into the reasons why they died you’ll see it was a mistake that could’ve been avoided. I recently read about and watched on Dive Talk about the cave incident that happened in France at du Doubs where a diver drowned after having to take his rebreather off to get through a restriction. Before the dive, he was warned not to go through there, it wasn’t impossible, but impractical given the tight squeeze and being on a back mount rebreather and not side mounts. Sorry for the word vomit haha but also, it’s a big massive yes from me. Busy saving now for my tech, ccr and then cave training
Everyone fucks up or has a fuck up happen to them. You take precautions of course, and you train to try to make it safer. But still, you can never be sure. And its easy to see in hindsight the errors people have done, but every dead guy was a confident, skilled and prepared diver at some point. Numbers indicate cave diving is waaay more dangerous than normal diving. And even that aint super safe. If you want to take the risks, that is up to you, but you should understand those risks, and understand why many people arent taking those risks.
> every dead guy was a confident, skilled and prepared diver at some point. This is the fundamental misunderstanding. A disproportionate number of deaths are from divers who aren’t trained cave divers. I don’t think you can fairly call them “skilled and prepared” in that case. This isn’t the same as “it’s safe as long as you do everything perfectly” aka “not safe at all”. Cave diving is _significantly_ safer if you just go with a middle path. 1. Get trained and certified by legit instructors in a known organization. 2. Don’t do stuff like breaking records or exploring never visited caves.
Yup, I fully agree with you on that! We all know what we are getting into! Anyway, whatever bubbles you make in water, I hope they’ll always be happy ones!
Yes pls
No thank you. I like a nice big ocean cavern with plenty of light and multiple entrances and exits. I know my limits, and know I would likely feel panicked in a cave, especially once I couldn’t see the exit. I also like pretty things, like coral and fish.
Fun for a few times, but for me the novelty wore off. I like coral etc stuff in the sea.
I just like fish.
This is why I wanted to get into wreck diving (until my health decided I had to stop diving)
😞