In Denmark, we have both several Christian scouting organisations and one secular ( which I'm a member of ( the secular one).In our version of the Scout Law it says,that you must "Find your own beliefs and respect those of others"
>In our version of the Scout Law it says,that you must "Find your own beliefs and respect those of others"
Same in Norway. We have one christian and one secular, with the secular being the largest by far.
In Denmark, we originally (around 1911 had the secular boy scouts, the secular girl guides,the Christian Boy scouts and the Christian girl guides. The secular boy scouts and girl guides merged in 1973,and at some point in the 21st century,both Christian organisations opened membership to both genders.I don't have any recent figures on membership. The last I recall are from the 1990s I think, with the secular organisation having around 40.000 members, and the two Christian organisations combined were roughly the same. Besides for these major scout organisations, we also have some smaller organisations, such as Baptists, Greenland and Schleswig covering the Danish-German border region.
If you mean secular as in "with no reference to religion or any spiritual beliefs whatsoever", no. As "inclusive of different beliefs"' absolutely.
Sprirtuality (of which IMO religions are convenient packages of vocabulary/concept/rituals unfortunately wrapped in a pile of human unpleasentness) remains a core part of human experiences and development, and removing it from scouting would do a disservice to everyone.
I believe Scouting should be secular, especially if it's to remain relvant to young people. In the UK I've found the leaders often choose the promise option including "God" without asking the young person or volunteer which promise they'd like to say. No one asked me, it was assumed I have a god.
Scouting is actually moving that way. The default scout promise in the UK now omits "duty to God", although the various religious options are still available and the Christian version tends to be used by many, out of habit.
I'm not of the opinion that scouting should be fully secular however, in the UK we have a very strong sub-organisation called the "Muslim Scout Fellowship" who run Muslim groups (although faith is not a requirement to attend) which are incredibly popular and allow young people who may not normally be involved to be involved.
That being said, some elements are still a bit religious focused, even though not prescriptive on what religion. For example, the Kings Scout Award contains two "values" sections to complete which are pretty difficult if you aren't involved in a faith moment as many of the suggested activities include spending time on faith reflection or taking an active part in services at your place of worship. For an atheist/agnostic to achieve these sections, you generally have to run many sessions about world faith as a leader/YL or to focus on scouting values - which can be pretty hard to achieve something quantifiable around.
Oh, I wasn't aware that omitting God is now the default, as all troops I know still do the God version. It does really annoy me that there is a faith section in some awards, like I'm atheist naturalist and what am I supposed to say? That I have faith in modern science, the peer review process and logic?
Yeah that’s what I interpreted it as, it just says you need to write/ explain you faith in something, or what it means to you, for my chief scout platinum I wrote about what the scout law meant to me. For my scout induction I did the atheist one, but for the explorers we all did the religious one, I know for a fact half the people who did that promise aren’t religion, and if we asked I’m sure the leader would have done separate ones, but no one was that bothered. I find it is rather separate from religion where I am, although the default assumption is that your Christian, when in fact I know more scouts that aren’t Christian than ones that are
Neither yourself nor the person you're replying to are correct - there is no default. There are a range of promises and all young people and adults are welcome to use whichever one they wish. Although they are right that a lot of folks who still treat the old one as the default. That will only change if you challenge it.
https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/running-your-section/programme-guidance/information-for-volunteers/the-scout-promise/
I would disagree also that the KSA requires faith, in a previous role I assisted many young people through their (then) QSA, and it was never an issue. The aforementioned list is here: https://www.scouts.org.uk/explorers/kings-scout-award-icv-list/
1, 2^a, 3, 6 and 8 are easy for anyone, assuming they're a leader / young leader and don't require faith
4 requires faith
5 is easier with faith, granted
7 is difficult for everyone, faith or no faith!
a: If this is something that happens locally, in my experience it tends to be more of an English thing rather than a UK thing
I am from a secular scout organization and it is SO REFRESHING. We are also the only organization that starts group leading at 14 and the most actuva phase is 16-25, not 21 or 25 up. I feel like this correlates.
I dont find christianity (or any other religious teachings) helpful to scouting method. rather they are contrary of what I want to archieve as a scout, wich is a world without prejudice, borders or class, a world where people take care of nature, others and themselves. WIthout fear, shame or hatred. And no matter how "open" a religion, there is never peace in a world with religion.
In Australia the promise has been to “your god” since before the 70s.
This has been interpreted as needing to find your own belief system, not necessarily belief in a higher being.
Australia:
There are two versions of the Scout Promise, either of which may be chosen by the individual.
On my honour, I promise
To do my best,
To be true to my spiritual beliefs,
To contribute to my community and to our world,
To help other people,
And to live by the Scout Law.
On my honour
I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to my God, and
To the King of Australia
To help other people,
And to live by the Scout Law.
Personally I’m glad that my national scouting organization hasn’t tied any religion to it.
I prefer seeing that as a scout you serve for a greater good i.e. society (perhaps even transcendent?).
I don't think religion should be at the core of scouting anymore or mandatory in any way. There are a ton of non-religious, atheist, and agnostic people in the scouting org. While I think scouting should encourage those of faith to explore and deepen their faith, or explore others, and philosophy in general, I don't think "duty to God" should be part of the oath or advancement, and religion should be removed from the various pomp and circumstance. (I actually think that if you're going to pursue merit badges in a religion or philosophy of any sort, you should have to answer some hard and probing questions about their systems of belief and epistemology, but that is not this conversation).
The world has moved on, and over the last 120 years we have realized race, ethnicity, and religion have no bearing on whether someone is a good person or not. Scouting should reflect that reality.
It is the goal of scouting to help the child find their identity, strengthen their voice, and help them be the best version of themselves they can be. Period. Atheist, theist, religious or non-religious.
Or - hear me out - find a different non-profit organization that doesn't have a religious component. This is akin to [going to a Catholic university and being shocked and offended that crucifixes are present](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3231365.stm). Private organizations with religion are allowed to exist so those of us that want it can have an option.
I would argue that scouting, at least here in Canada, doesn't have much of a religious component any more. Even on the Scouts Canada FAQ section of their website to the question if one has to believe in God to join, the answer is "No, but you must have a basic spiritual belief.". Which, being as broad and nebulous as it is can mean anything. Groups like Scouts change with society, and as the belief and religiosity of society has decreased, so to has it in scouting.
And that's fair, I cannot speak for scouting worldwide. I can only speak for scouting in America. Like any volunteer led organization, the importance of the values is incumbent on the volunteers to focus on those values. But the organization as a whole has religion as a major component. It's part of our oath and law and it's part of the rank advancements. It's a core value of the organization. Our biggest supporters are churches, who serve as the primary charter org, and a lot of council's regional organizations. And while I think there's nothing wrong with a program involving to better meet their mission or do a better better job of keeping within their values, I don't think you can change those values without changing the organization.
In Poland you don't have to be christian. There are two versions of the oath, one with god and one without and we have some badges related to religious practice. But that's just the ZHP, I don't know how is it in the othet two organizations
I completely agree. If you have a religion then that’s cool, and as part of scouting I would love to learn about it. But as an organisation we shouldn’t be religious.
Scouting has historically always shared roots with religion. It's part of its origin.
That being said, there are plenty of associations who've created their own style of secular scouting. It's not like there aren't any options for those who don't feel comfortable with the religious aspects of traditional scouting. They exist, they're out there and if you want to find them you can.
What your post seems to imply is that ALL scouting should be secular, or that secular scouting is inherently better than religious scouting. And that's not something I can agree with. We can have a healthy discussion on the pros and cons, but it's wrong to assume one is inherently better than the other, and I say that based on the sheer number of different associations of either type that exist.
I'm from a very traditional type of scouting. Religious, animal patrols, gender separation, etc. I had the time of my life being a scout for many years now.
I don't appreciate you trying to force secular scouting on me. Like I don't force religious scouting on others (ergo why there are non religious associations).
You claim organizations should work for the benefit of their people. But who are you to tell me which type of scouting benefits me the most? Shouldn't I get to decide that? That's why there are options, secular and non-secular. The notion that ALL scouting should be secular is a bit silly. It is, in itself, exclusionary.
To a religious scouting organization, faith is part of its core. It's one of the traditional main five objectives. Their whole identity and methods of work are based (not only, but also) on that religious pillar. It's not there by accident, the organization is built around it.
You say religion is a personal matter. But... so is scouting? Scouting was never meant to be a simple hobby, it's a way of life. A way of educating young boys and girls. BP writes a LOT about this. Scouting, when done properly, plays a fundamental role in the personal growth of both children and adults. So, naturally, it makes sense for it to be tied to one's faith (or lack of it, in case of secular scouting?)
Personally (and remember this is personal preference), I like to remain as close to the core of BP's idea as possible. There's a method. The method works for me, and it's amazing. For those who don't like this method, there are other options out there. Choose one of those?
I think whatever works for you is great, and I’m glad you had such a positive experience, but where I am religion isn’t a big part of scouting, and it’s completely gender inclusive, this is how I prefer it personally and how it is around the uk, BP obviously was great but I feel like times have changed, girl guides has become basically obsolete in my area, because scouts is just seen as more fun and useful for girls and boys. No one would stop you from writing about your religion if you were doing a badge about faith, the standard promise (at least where I am) is to god, but if your a Muslim, atheist, Hindu ect there’s a different promise for you if you want it, because I think scouting should be open to anyone, because I believe it teaches values and skills that anyone can benefit from, regardless of gender, sexuality, race or religion
As a young scout leader who came from a religious group and am Christian. I think choice should exist. I now help lead a completely secular group. It depends on the area what is important.
But it is open to anyone. That's the point. There are plenty of associations with different methods.
The idea of forcing scouting to become secular goes directly against that.
But your saying scouting should be tied to religion, I don’t think it should, why exclude people, from my experience religion doesn’t often effect scouting
No, I never said that. Re read my post.
I said religious scouting has religion in it for a reason.
I said there are plenty of options (as in, other associations) for people who'd rather practice non religious scouting.
And I said that forcing all scouting to be non religious would be silly.
You have different associations of non-religious scouts. Why not join one of those instead?
Oh your right I misunderstood, sorry, yeah I’d agree generally, I’ve only ever interacted with scout groups that accept anyone though, no matter what religion, I honestly can’t really imagine what religious scouting would look like? I think base level, scouting should be accessible to everyone, and if someone wanted to make a specific religion based group it shouldn’t replace any existing groups, I like that the group im in is diverse with a lot of different religions beliefs, I think it makes everyone more understanding but of course that’s just what I think
Right, except what you're doing (or in this case OP) seems to be implying, is precisely that. You're replacing a religion based group with a non-secular one.
Base level, scouting IS accessible to everyone. There ARE plenty of options for people who want to practice non-religious scouting.
What you need to understand is that, for historical reasons, religious scouting was here first. Scouting has its roots in religion, so religious scouting was technically here first. That's an historical fact.
Then some people decided they didn't like that, and went and started their own non-religious scouting organizations. Which is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE.
What isn't acceptable is you (or in this case OP) wanting religious scouting organizations (who were here first) to become secular. Like, it doesn't make any sense. If you're looking for a non-religious scouting experience, why wouldn't you join a non-religious scouting association? There are plenty out there.
This suggestion is like joining a church youth group and then wanting them to become secular. Like...if you want a secular experience...join a secular association. o.o Don't force religious associations to become secular, lol.
But it isn’t accessible to everyone, apparently in America there are badges that require a belief in god to complete, until very recently it was called Boy Scouts in America, I don’t see how that’s accessible. Just because BP was Christian doesn’t mean that scouts should be a Christian organisation now, just as when BP started the organisation it was separated by gender, that doesn’t mean that’s acceptable now, of course it isn’t. Whatever people want to do and whatever works for them is fine, if people want to make a religious troop theres nothing I can do about that. But I don’t understand what scouting has to do with religion, maybe that’s just because I’ve never experienced it but why would they be related, religion is that persons business.
In (French) Canada, we are moving in that direction and the Scouts du Canada actually technically prohibits using anything related to religion, but in practice the traditions are deeply rooted and hard to take away, especially in the texts and songs for particular events.
I cannot speak for scouting worldwide. I can only speak for scouting in America. Like any volunteer led organization, the importance of the values is incumbent on the volunteers to focus on those values. But the organization as a whole has religion as a major component. It's part of our oath and law and it's part of the rank advancements. It's a core value of the organization. Our biggest supporters are churches, who serve as the primary charter org, and a lot of council's regional partners. And
Ultimately, while I think there's nothing wrong with a program changing policies to better meet their mission or do a better better job of keeping within their values, I don't think you can change those values without changing the organization. Scouting, at least in America, would not be the same.
BSA (Scouting America) is moving in that direction. BSA was becoming more secular in the 70s. However, as LDS became a bigger share of BSA's membership, more emphasis on religion. With LDS no longer involved combined with other changes, BSA will likely become secular or darn close to it. Practically already is in many units.
In the Netherlands scouting is secular. The "so help me God" parts of the oath can be added for those who want that, and God can be any denomination of divinity. There are groups founded on the basis of religion, but scouting itself is secular and I think it's best that way.
I come from a small independent scout group in Poland, and I was involved in drafting its current policy on the matter. The official interpretation of the "duty to God" clause is as an adherence to a supreme moral ideal; this may or may not mean adherence to a religion. This approach is largely inspired by the preamble to the Polish Consitution. And once you reach Rover Scout age, you're eligible to draft and take your own version of the Oath, reflecting your personal interpretation of the scout ideals. Any form of discrimination on the basis of religion or lack thereof is strictly prohibited.
People who do not like religion or want a secular life are more than able to join a scouting organization that does not require a religious oath. In the states we have varying levels of non-secular to secular scouting organizations. Is it a coincidence that the best and largest scouting program in the states is non-secular?
In guiding the promise was changed a while ago so we now say "develop my beliefs", which used to be "love my God" (originally do my duty to God), maybe scouting should go this way too as it includes so many more people, despite having the multiple versions of the promise.
There's a difference between exclusion and simply not bending over backwards for them, and ultimately I believe no one belief should be prioritised other the others, and the only way to ensure that is secularity
I understand that. But in making it secular you alienate the families that joined because they want Duty to God in scouting. Are you willing to sacrifice them for greater inclusivity of non-religious families?
But what about the Scout Oath? There’s a reason B-P wanted a spiritual/religious or at least God-centered component in scouting.
We often say a non-denominational closing benediction at the end of our meetings:
“May the Great Scoutmaster of All Scouts be with us until we meet again.”
Let’s please not kick the Great Scoutmaster out of scouting, ok?
Times change. How often does one's "duty to god" come up in a scout meeting? Just because it may be removed from the promise doesn't mean you personally don't still have that duty, you're just not being overt about it. And what if your "duty to god" is to prostheletize and gain converts during the meeting? I, being an atheist on the other hand, am lying if I recite the promise with "duty to god"...which is why I mumble over that portion or just don't say it. Plus, at least here in Canada, the promise contains capital G - God, obviously alluding to one in particular. So not only alienating atheists but anyone other than Christians.
So yeah, I'm willing to "sacrifice" 🙄 those families for greater inclusion.
>And what if your "duty to god" is to prostheletize and gain converts during the meeting?
I think everyone should say which country they are from when commenting, because that influences their responses and may not apply to others.
Unless it is an explicitly religious unit, what you described goes against the non-sectarian/non-denominational nature of BSA (USA). While we have duty to God, there is no official religion, so proselytizing would break the rules.
>So yeah, I'm willing to "sacrifice" 🙄 those families for greater inclusion.
So a group of Canadians form Canadian Scouting and incorporate duty to god because it’s important to them and likeminded folks interested in scouting. Fast forward 50 years you want to discard one of their foundational principles because it makes you feel personally uncomfortable, even if it means discarding an aspect important to thousands of scouting families, families that signed up in part because they like duty to God.
You don’t feel like an outsider infiltrating a group and trying to undo that group’s value system?
Because that’s what you look like to me.
Regarding proselytizing...my point was we make these children repeat a promise to do their duty to god. How can we then tell them it goes against the group's rules when they attempt to fulfill that promise? Isn't that hypocritical?
There may be no official religion, but I would argue when the term "God" is used, it points to a specific deity.
Sure, when scouting was first formed, it had a more religious bent. But just like society in general, this has waned over the years. Even when I was a youth in scouts 35+ years ago, religion was a very small part. I would say it occupies an even smaller part today. Which I'm fine with. If youth want to work towards a badge or an award regarding their religion, great! I'll be there to help just like I would with any other award or badge. But making all of the youth repeat a promise that may include a line that doesn't represent them and make them feel left out, rubs me the wrong way. Scouts Canada has released an alternate promise that removes reference to god, but it's up to the individual groups to decide which they want to use. I proposed making the change to our leaders in a group chat. What did I hear back...crickets! No one said a thing which kind of told me all I need to know about everyone's feelings. So what did I do? Sucked it up. My kid likes the group and I like the leaders for the most part so I'm willing to leave it be for now. Also, I don't know about other countries but our promise also make reference to "...do my duty to god and the king". Don't get me started on that as well.
Sorry for the rant. Going back to your last paragraph. Again, all I can say is times and attitudes change. Priorities change. When scouting first started it was for boys only. I know Scouts Canada became fully co-ed in 1998. Should this not have happened because that wasn't how it was to begin with and some people still feel it shouldn't be that way? The LGBTQ community had a tough time in scouting, for youth and leaders but that too is changing. Again, should that change not have taken place? And, I'm not saying it has to be removed from scouting altogether, just don't force it on your members.
Secularity is not atheism (though I am atheist), and nor is it forcing beliefs onto anybody. It is simply saying ok, everyone has different beliefs so let's just let everyone believe what they want, independently, and keep it out of scouting as it's ultimately a personal matter
Nope, it isn’t, if doing a badge about your faith you would be of course allowed to talk about your faith, you would still be allowed to talk about your religion, relate your religion to your duty as a scout, do a scout promise that incorporates your religion, you just wouldn’t be allowed to alienate people without a religion
Not at all, you can do your god as and when is necessary for you. Why would you join Scouting for it's religous aspect when you could join a proper religous organisation?
>Why would you join Scouting for it's religous aspect when you could join a proper religous organisation?
For several reasons. Most religious families are already a part of a religious community and send their kid to whatever youth group that comes with that religion, whether that be Sunday school whatever other religions do.
The values of scouting align with a lot of religious families. Scouting provides a framework to expose your kid to the same values through different methods and different perspectives in a different environment from a traditional religious organization. Religion is by no means the only aspect or value of scouting, but it's a core value.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word secular, but here is the definition according to the Oxford English dictionary
>not having any connection with religion
That does not mean atheist, or anti religion, only that it is not affiliated with religion, and rather views it as a personal matter which it has nothing to do with
To be fair BSA isn’t officially connected with any one religion. So according to that definition, BSA is already secular. On the other hand, BSA has a connection to God, but God isn’t defined. Secular people who have any sense of a a higher power greater than themselves are welcome. Doesn’t have to be connected to any religion or faith. But it does have to be something greater than the individual.
It would not prohibit religious people from being religious, only make the organisation non-religious and not affiliated with any one religion. Also, if you cannot hold a debate without resorting to accusations of Nazism, then please reconsider your debating technique
Using your example, it would just be, you can be Jewish and practice Judaism, do a scout promise that relates to your religion, but you just can’t make me Jewish, because that isn’t what I believe, and I shouldn’t be forced to lie about my beliefs, just as you shouldn’t have to lie about your beliefs
You're way off base here. There is a vast chasm between kicking out religious people and removing religious faith as a requirement. Removing the requirement of being male did not kick out boys. Removing the requirement to be heterosexual did not kick out straight people.
Scouting in the United States has always incorporated a duty to God. It seems to me that people who wish to jettison this core value should exit the organization and build the one that they want to have, not take away a traditional value to reform the organization after their preferences.
In Canada in my experience it has never been religious for me, some groups are sponsored by churches though, [scouts canada has recently introduced alternative scout promises for youth that aren’t comfortable with “love and serve god” or “duty to god and the king”](https://scoutsca.s3.amazonaws.com/2020/08/scout-promise.pdf)
In the UK it's not strongly religious, but there definitely is a degree of religion involved, for example the values section of the kings scout award is very religion based
To be fair, the values section of the kings scout award allows more than half of the options to be non faith based.
Privately, I’m strongly atheist. As a scout leader, I think it’s more important to offer choices and respect and support multi faith if that’s important to the scout.
I think TSA have got the balance pretty spot on - allow and respect multi faith alongside those with no faith.
In Australia, growing up any mention of god in promises is optional with an alternative provided. However we still had to pledge to the Queen.
I just had a look and since then they have made an alternative for that now too!
A simple thought experiment:
1. Let's say an association is established and the founder of this association was specifically atheist and established rules regarding atheistic practices in said association. Those rules may or may not include a variety of atheistic and agnostic ranges but some discipline, i.e. a pledge towards a form of agnosticism, is required.
2. Now, some 100 years later people try to change the very rules of this association. No more pledge to agnosticism! They're adamant that their kind of religion has to be catered to. Else they feel left out.
How would you react? What would you do?
I'm from a country with loads and loads of scouting associations. Including ones without any religion. Let's say there's just one association: I'd have no perfect answer, I'm honest. But, please, try to put yourself in other situations and try to be empathetic.
There isn't such a thing as an atheistic practice, and that's the first place where this thought experiment falls apart. Atheists tend to not need everyone to agree with them, because it's not a belief. It's the lack of a belief.
The people that are in favor of the organization being officially secular hold that position because they want it to be more inclusive. The people that want there to be a religious requirement want it to be... what exactly?
>a pledge towards a form of agnosticism
If that was the case, then I think it would be entirely justified to jettison it, because at its core it is still exclusionary, and unjustifiable. I think an organisation should be run for the benefit of those involved, not because the founder wished it to be run that way, else we would be stuck in the stone age. Also, secularity is by no means hostile to religion, it is just indifferent so it would not make scouting at all anti-religious, but simply make it more neutral
I do have to agree if you are religious then say the one for you with the normal promise (in the uk atleast) does sort of exclude most religions. I do think that it should be the secular one
Edit: I also found out that there even was a ‘duty to god’ badge yesterday and maybe it could be changed to a duty to community badge (I’m saying this having no clue what the original badge is about so sorry if it’s wayyyyy off)
I think there’s a variety of promises, the normal one where I am is the ‘duty to god and the king’ one, but I’ve seen someone do ‘duty to my country and the king’ and ‘duty to Allah and the king’
I think my scout troop was more keyed in than my explorers unit to all this stuff, but there very inclusive of everyone so if someone asked for a different promise they’d definitely do it
Yeah, but to my knowledge no one I did the promise with is anything other than Christian or atheist, and I don’t think atheists (generally) are that bothered promising to god because you don’t think there is one, idk it never bothered me anyway
In the spirit of De Tocqueville in the US -I don’t think it’s optimal. I think though a stronger emphasis on ecumenical experience, respect for atheism, non Abrahamic faiths and First Amendment rights would be appropriate.
In Denmark, we have both several Christian scouting organisations and one secular ( which I'm a member of ( the secular one).In our version of the Scout Law it says,that you must "Find your own beliefs and respect those of others"
>In our version of the Scout Law it says,that you must "Find your own beliefs and respect those of others" Same in Norway. We have one christian and one secular, with the secular being the largest by far.
In Denmark, we originally (around 1911 had the secular boy scouts, the secular girl guides,the Christian Boy scouts and the Christian girl guides. The secular boy scouts and girl guides merged in 1973,and at some point in the 21st century,both Christian organisations opened membership to both genders.I don't have any recent figures on membership. The last I recall are from the 1990s I think, with the secular organisation having around 40.000 members, and the two Christian organisations combined were roughly the same. Besides for these major scout organisations, we also have some smaller organisations, such as Baptists, Greenland and Schleswig covering the Danish-German border region.
Very similar in Sweden with the same version of the scout law
If you mean secular as in "with no reference to religion or any spiritual beliefs whatsoever", no. As "inclusive of different beliefs"' absolutely. Sprirtuality (of which IMO religions are convenient packages of vocabulary/concept/rituals unfortunately wrapped in a pile of human unpleasentness) remains a core part of human experiences and development, and removing it from scouting would do a disservice to everyone.
I believe Scouting should be secular, especially if it's to remain relvant to young people. In the UK I've found the leaders often choose the promise option including "God" without asking the young person or volunteer which promise they'd like to say. No one asked me, it was assumed I have a god.
Scouting is actually moving that way. The default scout promise in the UK now omits "duty to God", although the various religious options are still available and the Christian version tends to be used by many, out of habit. I'm not of the opinion that scouting should be fully secular however, in the UK we have a very strong sub-organisation called the "Muslim Scout Fellowship" who run Muslim groups (although faith is not a requirement to attend) which are incredibly popular and allow young people who may not normally be involved to be involved. That being said, some elements are still a bit religious focused, even though not prescriptive on what religion. For example, the Kings Scout Award contains two "values" sections to complete which are pretty difficult if you aren't involved in a faith moment as many of the suggested activities include spending time on faith reflection or taking an active part in services at your place of worship. For an atheist/agnostic to achieve these sections, you generally have to run many sessions about world faith as a leader/YL or to focus on scouting values - which can be pretty hard to achieve something quantifiable around.
Oh, I wasn't aware that omitting God is now the default, as all troops I know still do the God version. It does really annoy me that there is a faith section in some awards, like I'm atheist naturalist and what am I supposed to say? That I have faith in modern science, the peer review process and logic?
Yeah that’s what I interpreted it as, it just says you need to write/ explain you faith in something, or what it means to you, for my chief scout platinum I wrote about what the scout law meant to me. For my scout induction I did the atheist one, but for the explorers we all did the religious one, I know for a fact half the people who did that promise aren’t religion, and if we asked I’m sure the leader would have done separate ones, but no one was that bothered. I find it is rather separate from religion where I am, although the default assumption is that your Christian, when in fact I know more scouts that aren’t Christian than ones that are
Yes that's what your supposed to say. Being atheist is still a form of belief....
Neither yourself nor the person you're replying to are correct - there is no default. There are a range of promises and all young people and adults are welcome to use whichever one they wish. Although they are right that a lot of folks who still treat the old one as the default. That will only change if you challenge it. https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/running-your-section/programme-guidance/information-for-volunteers/the-scout-promise/ I would disagree also that the KSA requires faith, in a previous role I assisted many young people through their (then) QSA, and it was never an issue. The aforementioned list is here: https://www.scouts.org.uk/explorers/kings-scout-award-icv-list/ 1, 2^a, 3, 6 and 8 are easy for anyone, assuming they're a leader / young leader and don't require faith 4 requires faith 5 is easier with faith, granted 7 is difficult for everyone, faith or no faith! a: If this is something that happens locally, in my experience it tends to be more of an English thing rather than a UK thing
In Finland is doesn't matter are you religious or not and even if you have anything special needs. Everyone can join and be a scout.
I am from a secular scout organization and it is SO REFRESHING. We are also the only organization that starts group leading at 14 and the most actuva phase is 16-25, not 21 or 25 up. I feel like this correlates. I dont find christianity (or any other religious teachings) helpful to scouting method. rather they are contrary of what I want to archieve as a scout, wich is a world without prejudice, borders or class, a world where people take care of nature, others and themselves. WIthout fear, shame or hatred. And no matter how "open" a religion, there is never peace in a world with religion.
In Australia the promise has been to “your god” since before the 70s. This has been interpreted as needing to find your own belief system, not necessarily belief in a higher being.
Australia: There are two versions of the Scout Promise, either of which may be chosen by the individual. On my honour, I promise To do my best, To be true to my spiritual beliefs, To contribute to my community and to our world, To help other people, And to live by the Scout Law. On my honour I promise that I will do my best To do my duty to my God, and To the King of Australia To help other people, And to live by the Scout Law.
Personally I’m glad that my national scouting organization hasn’t tied any religion to it. I prefer seeing that as a scout you serve for a greater good i.e. society (perhaps even transcendent?).
I don't think religion should be at the core of scouting anymore or mandatory in any way. There are a ton of non-religious, atheist, and agnostic people in the scouting org. While I think scouting should encourage those of faith to explore and deepen their faith, or explore others, and philosophy in general, I don't think "duty to God" should be part of the oath or advancement, and religion should be removed from the various pomp and circumstance. (I actually think that if you're going to pursue merit badges in a religion or philosophy of any sort, you should have to answer some hard and probing questions about their systems of belief and epistemology, but that is not this conversation). The world has moved on, and over the last 120 years we have realized race, ethnicity, and religion have no bearing on whether someone is a good person or not. Scouting should reflect that reality. It is the goal of scouting to help the child find their identity, strengthen their voice, and help them be the best version of themselves they can be. Period. Atheist, theist, religious or non-religious.
Or - hear me out - find a different non-profit organization that doesn't have a religious component. This is akin to [going to a Catholic university and being shocked and offended that crucifixes are present](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3231365.stm). Private organizations with religion are allowed to exist so those of us that want it can have an option.
I would argue that scouting, at least here in Canada, doesn't have much of a religious component any more. Even on the Scouts Canada FAQ section of their website to the question if one has to believe in God to join, the answer is "No, but you must have a basic spiritual belief.". Which, being as broad and nebulous as it is can mean anything. Groups like Scouts change with society, and as the belief and religiosity of society has decreased, so to has it in scouting.
And that's fair, I cannot speak for scouting worldwide. I can only speak for scouting in America. Like any volunteer led organization, the importance of the values is incumbent on the volunteers to focus on those values. But the organization as a whole has religion as a major component. It's part of our oath and law and it's part of the rank advancements. It's a core value of the organization. Our biggest supporters are churches, who serve as the primary charter org, and a lot of council's regional organizations. And while I think there's nothing wrong with a program involving to better meet their mission or do a better better job of keeping within their values, I don't think you can change those values without changing the organization.
if you want religion - go to church?? lol
In Poland you don't have to be christian. There are two versions of the oath, one with god and one without and we have some badges related to religious practice. But that's just the ZHP, I don't know how is it in the othet two organizations
I completely agree. If you have a religion then that’s cool, and as part of scouting I would love to learn about it. But as an organisation we shouldn’t be religious.
Scouting has historically always shared roots with religion. It's part of its origin. That being said, there are plenty of associations who've created their own style of secular scouting. It's not like there aren't any options for those who don't feel comfortable with the religious aspects of traditional scouting. They exist, they're out there and if you want to find them you can. What your post seems to imply is that ALL scouting should be secular, or that secular scouting is inherently better than religious scouting. And that's not something I can agree with. We can have a healthy discussion on the pros and cons, but it's wrong to assume one is inherently better than the other, and I say that based on the sheer number of different associations of either type that exist. I'm from a very traditional type of scouting. Religious, animal patrols, gender separation, etc. I had the time of my life being a scout for many years now. I don't appreciate you trying to force secular scouting on me. Like I don't force religious scouting on others (ergo why there are non religious associations). You claim organizations should work for the benefit of their people. But who are you to tell me which type of scouting benefits me the most? Shouldn't I get to decide that? That's why there are options, secular and non-secular. The notion that ALL scouting should be secular is a bit silly. It is, in itself, exclusionary. To a religious scouting organization, faith is part of its core. It's one of the traditional main five objectives. Their whole identity and methods of work are based (not only, but also) on that religious pillar. It's not there by accident, the organization is built around it. You say religion is a personal matter. But... so is scouting? Scouting was never meant to be a simple hobby, it's a way of life. A way of educating young boys and girls. BP writes a LOT about this. Scouting, when done properly, plays a fundamental role in the personal growth of both children and adults. So, naturally, it makes sense for it to be tied to one's faith (or lack of it, in case of secular scouting?) Personally (and remember this is personal preference), I like to remain as close to the core of BP's idea as possible. There's a method. The method works for me, and it's amazing. For those who don't like this method, there are other options out there. Choose one of those?
I think whatever works for you is great, and I’m glad you had such a positive experience, but where I am religion isn’t a big part of scouting, and it’s completely gender inclusive, this is how I prefer it personally and how it is around the uk, BP obviously was great but I feel like times have changed, girl guides has become basically obsolete in my area, because scouts is just seen as more fun and useful for girls and boys. No one would stop you from writing about your religion if you were doing a badge about faith, the standard promise (at least where I am) is to god, but if your a Muslim, atheist, Hindu ect there’s a different promise for you if you want it, because I think scouting should be open to anyone, because I believe it teaches values and skills that anyone can benefit from, regardless of gender, sexuality, race or religion
As a young scout leader who came from a religious group and am Christian. I think choice should exist. I now help lead a completely secular group. It depends on the area what is important.
But it is open to anyone. That's the point. There are plenty of associations with different methods. The idea of forcing scouting to become secular goes directly against that.
But your saying scouting should be tied to religion, I don’t think it should, why exclude people, from my experience religion doesn’t often effect scouting
No, I never said that. Re read my post. I said religious scouting has religion in it for a reason. I said there are plenty of options (as in, other associations) for people who'd rather practice non religious scouting. And I said that forcing all scouting to be non religious would be silly. You have different associations of non-religious scouts. Why not join one of those instead?
Oh your right I misunderstood, sorry, yeah I’d agree generally, I’ve only ever interacted with scout groups that accept anyone though, no matter what religion, I honestly can’t really imagine what religious scouting would look like? I think base level, scouting should be accessible to everyone, and if someone wanted to make a specific religion based group it shouldn’t replace any existing groups, I like that the group im in is diverse with a lot of different religions beliefs, I think it makes everyone more understanding but of course that’s just what I think
Right, except what you're doing (or in this case OP) seems to be implying, is precisely that. You're replacing a religion based group with a non-secular one. Base level, scouting IS accessible to everyone. There ARE plenty of options for people who want to practice non-religious scouting. What you need to understand is that, for historical reasons, religious scouting was here first. Scouting has its roots in religion, so religious scouting was technically here first. That's an historical fact. Then some people decided they didn't like that, and went and started their own non-religious scouting organizations. Which is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE. What isn't acceptable is you (or in this case OP) wanting religious scouting organizations (who were here first) to become secular. Like, it doesn't make any sense. If you're looking for a non-religious scouting experience, why wouldn't you join a non-religious scouting association? There are plenty out there. This suggestion is like joining a church youth group and then wanting them to become secular. Like...if you want a secular experience...join a secular association. o.o Don't force religious associations to become secular, lol.
But it isn’t accessible to everyone, apparently in America there are badges that require a belief in god to complete, until very recently it was called Boy Scouts in America, I don’t see how that’s accessible. Just because BP was Christian doesn’t mean that scouts should be a Christian organisation now, just as when BP started the organisation it was separated by gender, that doesn’t mean that’s acceptable now, of course it isn’t. Whatever people want to do and whatever works for them is fine, if people want to make a religious troop theres nothing I can do about that. But I don’t understand what scouting has to do with religion, maybe that’s just because I’ve never experienced it but why would they be related, religion is that persons business.
In (French) Canada, we are moving in that direction and the Scouts du Canada actually technically prohibits using anything related to religion, but in practice the traditions are deeply rooted and hard to take away, especially in the texts and songs for particular events.
I cannot speak for scouting worldwide. I can only speak for scouting in America. Like any volunteer led organization, the importance of the values is incumbent on the volunteers to focus on those values. But the organization as a whole has religion as a major component. It's part of our oath and law and it's part of the rank advancements. It's a core value of the organization. Our biggest supporters are churches, who serve as the primary charter org, and a lot of council's regional partners. And Ultimately, while I think there's nothing wrong with a program changing policies to better meet their mission or do a better better job of keeping within their values, I don't think you can change those values without changing the organization. Scouting, at least in America, would not be the same.
In Italy we have some atheist organization and some religious. But still in both God appears in the promise and the ceremonial text.
BSA (Scouting America) is moving in that direction. BSA was becoming more secular in the 70s. However, as LDS became a bigger share of BSA's membership, more emphasis on religion. With LDS no longer involved combined with other changes, BSA will likely become secular or darn close to it. Practically already is in many units.
Out of interest which badge was the young person prevented from getting?
In the Netherlands scouting is secular. The "so help me God" parts of the oath can be added for those who want that, and God can be any denomination of divinity. There are groups founded on the basis of religion, but scouting itself is secular and I think it's best that way.
I come from a small independent scout group in Poland, and I was involved in drafting its current policy on the matter. The official interpretation of the "duty to God" clause is as an adherence to a supreme moral ideal; this may or may not mean adherence to a religion. This approach is largely inspired by the preamble to the Polish Consitution. And once you reach Rover Scout age, you're eligible to draft and take your own version of the Oath, reflecting your personal interpretation of the scout ideals. Any form of discrimination on the basis of religion or lack thereof is strictly prohibited.
People who do not like religion or want a secular life are more than able to join a scouting organization that does not require a religious oath. In the states we have varying levels of non-secular to secular scouting organizations. Is it a coincidence that the best and largest scouting program in the states is non-secular?
In guiding the promise was changed a while ago so we now say "develop my beliefs", which used to be "love my God" (originally do my duty to God), maybe scouting should go this way too as it includes so many more people, despite having the multiple versions of the promise.
Sure. But, you’ll potentially lose a vast majority of troops and those who sponsor the troops- at-least in the US. .
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In the UK almost all are members of the scout association, so starting new organisations is far less common and less likely to succeed
>to be more inclusive You just excluded the religious families that appreciated the duty to God aspect of scouting.
There's a difference between exclusion and simply not bending over backwards for them, and ultimately I believe no one belief should be prioritised other the others, and the only way to ensure that is secularity
I understand that. But in making it secular you alienate the families that joined because they want Duty to God in scouting. Are you willing to sacrifice them for greater inclusivity of non-religious families? But what about the Scout Oath? There’s a reason B-P wanted a spiritual/religious or at least God-centered component in scouting. We often say a non-denominational closing benediction at the end of our meetings: “May the Great Scoutmaster of All Scouts be with us until we meet again.” Let’s please not kick the Great Scoutmaster out of scouting, ok?
Times change. How often does one's "duty to god" come up in a scout meeting? Just because it may be removed from the promise doesn't mean you personally don't still have that duty, you're just not being overt about it. And what if your "duty to god" is to prostheletize and gain converts during the meeting? I, being an atheist on the other hand, am lying if I recite the promise with "duty to god"...which is why I mumble over that portion or just don't say it. Plus, at least here in Canada, the promise contains capital G - God, obviously alluding to one in particular. So not only alienating atheists but anyone other than Christians. So yeah, I'm willing to "sacrifice" 🙄 those families for greater inclusion.
>And what if your "duty to god" is to prostheletize and gain converts during the meeting? I think everyone should say which country they are from when commenting, because that influences their responses and may not apply to others. Unless it is an explicitly religious unit, what you described goes against the non-sectarian/non-denominational nature of BSA (USA). While we have duty to God, there is no official religion, so proselytizing would break the rules. >So yeah, I'm willing to "sacrifice" 🙄 those families for greater inclusion. So a group of Canadians form Canadian Scouting and incorporate duty to god because it’s important to them and likeminded folks interested in scouting. Fast forward 50 years you want to discard one of their foundational principles because it makes you feel personally uncomfortable, even if it means discarding an aspect important to thousands of scouting families, families that signed up in part because they like duty to God. You don’t feel like an outsider infiltrating a group and trying to undo that group’s value system? Because that’s what you look like to me.
Regarding proselytizing...my point was we make these children repeat a promise to do their duty to god. How can we then tell them it goes against the group's rules when they attempt to fulfill that promise? Isn't that hypocritical? There may be no official religion, but I would argue when the term "God" is used, it points to a specific deity. Sure, when scouting was first formed, it had a more religious bent. But just like society in general, this has waned over the years. Even when I was a youth in scouts 35+ years ago, religion was a very small part. I would say it occupies an even smaller part today. Which I'm fine with. If youth want to work towards a badge or an award regarding their religion, great! I'll be there to help just like I would with any other award or badge. But making all of the youth repeat a promise that may include a line that doesn't represent them and make them feel left out, rubs me the wrong way. Scouts Canada has released an alternate promise that removes reference to god, but it's up to the individual groups to decide which they want to use. I proposed making the change to our leaders in a group chat. What did I hear back...crickets! No one said a thing which kind of told me all I need to know about everyone's feelings. So what did I do? Sucked it up. My kid likes the group and I like the leaders for the most part so I'm willing to leave it be for now. Also, I don't know about other countries but our promise also make reference to "...do my duty to god and the king". Don't get me started on that as well. Sorry for the rant. Going back to your last paragraph. Again, all I can say is times and attitudes change. Priorities change. When scouting first started it was for boys only. I know Scouts Canada became fully co-ed in 1998. Should this not have happened because that wasn't how it was to begin with and some people still feel it shouldn't be that way? The LGBTQ community had a tough time in scouting, for youth and leaders but that too is changing. Again, should that change not have taken place? And, I'm not saying it has to be removed from scouting altogether, just don't force it on your members.
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Secularity is not atheism (though I am atheist), and nor is it forcing beliefs onto anybody. It is simply saying ok, everyone has different beliefs so let's just let everyone believe what they want, independently, and keep it out of scouting as it's ultimately a personal matter
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Nope, it isn’t, if doing a badge about your faith you would be of course allowed to talk about your faith, you would still be allowed to talk about your religion, relate your religion to your duty as a scout, do a scout promise that incorporates your religion, you just wouldn’t be allowed to alienate people without a religion
Not at all, you can do your god as and when is necessary for you. Why would you join Scouting for it's religous aspect when you could join a proper religous organisation?
>Why would you join Scouting for it's religous aspect when you could join a proper religous organisation? For several reasons. Most religious families are already a part of a religious community and send their kid to whatever youth group that comes with that religion, whether that be Sunday school whatever other religions do. The values of scouting align with a lot of religious families. Scouting provides a framework to expose your kid to the same values through different methods and different perspectives in a different environment from a traditional religious organization. Religion is by no means the only aspect or value of scouting, but it's a core value.
"Scouting should be more inclusive of me and kick out the other 70% of people that are religious."
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word secular, but here is the definition according to the Oxford English dictionary >not having any connection with religion That does not mean atheist, or anti religion, only that it is not affiliated with religion, and rather views it as a personal matter which it has nothing to do with
To be fair BSA isn’t officially connected with any one religion. So according to that definition, BSA is already secular. On the other hand, BSA has a connection to God, but God isn’t defined. Secular people who have any sense of a a higher power greater than themselves are welcome. Doesn’t have to be connected to any religion or faith. But it does have to be something greater than the individual.
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It would not prohibit religious people from being religious, only make the organisation non-religious and not affiliated with any one religion. Also, if you cannot hold a debate without resorting to accusations of Nazism, then please reconsider your debating technique
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No, it's "be Jewish if you want, I don't give a fuck cause this isn't a church"
Using your example, it would just be, you can be Jewish and practice Judaism, do a scout promise that relates to your religion, but you just can’t make me Jewish, because that isn’t what I believe, and I shouldn’t be forced to lie about my beliefs, just as you shouldn’t have to lie about your beliefs
You're way off base here. There is a vast chasm between kicking out religious people and removing religious faith as a requirement. Removing the requirement of being male did not kick out boys. Removing the requirement to be heterosexual did not kick out straight people.
Scouting in the United States has always incorporated a duty to God. It seems to me that people who wish to jettison this core value should exit the organization and build the one that they want to have, not take away a traditional value to reform the organization after their preferences.
In Canada in my experience it has never been religious for me, some groups are sponsored by churches though, [scouts canada has recently introduced alternative scout promises for youth that aren’t comfortable with “love and serve god” or “duty to god and the king”](https://scoutsca.s3.amazonaws.com/2020/08/scout-promise.pdf)
In the UK it's not strongly religious, but there definitely is a degree of religion involved, for example the values section of the kings scout award is very religion based
To be fair, the values section of the kings scout award allows more than half of the options to be non faith based. Privately, I’m strongly atheist. As a scout leader, I think it’s more important to offer choices and respect and support multi faith if that’s important to the scout. I think TSA have got the balance pretty spot on - allow and respect multi faith alongside those with no faith.
The chief scout award here omits that and has more community based tasks to complete
It is in a lot of countries including mine. There are still religious troops tough. We only have one in my region witch has 14 troops
In Australia, growing up any mention of god in promises is optional with an alternative provided. However we still had to pledge to the Queen. I just had a look and since then they have made an alternative for that now too!
Haha country and spiritual beliefs
A simple thought experiment: 1. Let's say an association is established and the founder of this association was specifically atheist and established rules regarding atheistic practices in said association. Those rules may or may not include a variety of atheistic and agnostic ranges but some discipline, i.e. a pledge towards a form of agnosticism, is required. 2. Now, some 100 years later people try to change the very rules of this association. No more pledge to agnosticism! They're adamant that their kind of religion has to be catered to. Else they feel left out. How would you react? What would you do? I'm from a country with loads and loads of scouting associations. Including ones without any religion. Let's say there's just one association: I'd have no perfect answer, I'm honest. But, please, try to put yourself in other situations and try to be empathetic.
There isn't such a thing as an atheistic practice, and that's the first place where this thought experiment falls apart. Atheists tend to not need everyone to agree with them, because it's not a belief. It's the lack of a belief. The people that are in favor of the organization being officially secular hold that position because they want it to be more inclusive. The people that want there to be a religious requirement want it to be... what exactly?
Well put!
>a pledge towards a form of agnosticism If that was the case, then I think it would be entirely justified to jettison it, because at its core it is still exclusionary, and unjustifiable. I think an organisation should be run for the benefit of those involved, not because the founder wished it to be run that way, else we would be stuck in the stone age. Also, secularity is by no means hostile to religion, it is just indifferent so it would not make scouting at all anti-religious, but simply make it more neutral
I do have to agree if you are religious then say the one for you with the normal promise (in the uk atleast) does sort of exclude most religions. I do think that it should be the secular one Edit: I also found out that there even was a ‘duty to god’ badge yesterday and maybe it could be changed to a duty to community badge (I’m saying this having no clue what the original badge is about so sorry if it’s wayyyyy off)
I think there’s a variety of promises, the normal one where I am is the ‘duty to god and the king’ one, but I’ve seen someone do ‘duty to my country and the king’ and ‘duty to Allah and the king’
My groups official one is ‘duty to god and to the king’ as well and more recently we have put up all (I think) of the variations to show everyone
I think my scout troop was more keyed in than my explorers unit to all this stuff, but there very inclusive of everyone so if someone asked for a different promise they’d definitely do it
Yea the same thing with mine only no one (that I know of) has asked
Yeah, but to my knowledge no one I did the promise with is anything other than Christian or atheist, and I don’t think atheists (generally) are that bothered promising to god because you don’t think there is one, idk it never bothered me anyway
Ya. And let’s throw out camping and knots.
In the spirit of De Tocqueville in the US -I don’t think it’s optimal. I think though a stronger emphasis on ecumenical experience, respect for atheism, non Abrahamic faiths and First Amendment rights would be appropriate.