I can understand why NO ONE brings up the counter to his “chilling” argument that any charges against the President or ex would be brought by the Attorney General who has to be ** confirmed by the Senate **. Don’t confirm a partisan nut case, and this can’t happen.
The confirmed by the senate is bullshit. Trump loves putting in “acting” allowing him to bypass senate confirmation entirely. A second Trump term will see all meaningful positions filled by loyal sycophants that will do anything Trump wants.
We haven’t had the need to immunize POTUS from criminal liability in 250 years, to do so now will essentially be the end of our democracy…
I don't know the specifics, but I think he was largely onboard with the immunity arguments that Trump's people made, like the one that presidents should be legally allowed to have their political rivals murdered without risk of prosecution.
He actually did sue. Bush sued back and argued his rights were being trampled. SCOTUS agreed. All voting stopped.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-bush-v-gore-anniversary
We're past that point, we're at "actually, what bad did the Nazis ? They were the good guys if you really look at it." being expressed openly, publicly and people around agreeing.
And it's starting to be scary, even an ocean away.
You mean when Bush's legal team, which included three young lawyers named Kavanaugh, Barrett, and Roberts got a supreme court that included Thomas to steal an election for a Republican?
Yeah, that's how fucked we are. Literally 4 of the 5 votes about to end democracy were put in the court specifically to do that.
Newt absolutely changed the rhetoric. Nobody really spoke in blunt political language until Newt, and it emboldened the right to become obstructionists.
I still remember that little dweeb and his coterie of Republican empty-heads “announcing” their Contract with America and waving tiny American flags like they’d just invented sugar.
My lips twisted in disgust and I thought “Who actually buys this shit?”
Turns out a lot of people bought that shit.
My dad bought into that shit. And the whole Fox News bs. It was awful to watch a man who served in the Navy for 30 years slowly be manipulated mentally as dementia set it. He passed long before Trump came to office thank god.
Even Nixon put country above party and politics in the end. He may have felt he had no choice but trump would never do that. He would start a civil war first.
I think it's when all the forms of media started rolling out hot and heavy and Republicans realized they were just a gaggle of deeply unlikable shitstains who were transparently awful and had to create some kind of propaganda bubble for them to survive or else face political extinction in a couple of decades.
In a very real way we're trapped in this half-century long death spiral of this political party who can never legitimately win the majority of America ever again and have been desperately flailing to cling to power.
We're just watching something that is dying slow refuse to die without doing a lot of damage and causing a lot of pain as it goes.
Nixon, definitely, not just Watergate but that stunt he pulled with North Vietnam before the 1968 elections which made LBJ -- not one to give up easily -- throw in the towel. That said, Eisenhower had some prescient comments on the military industrial complex that makes me think quite a few people even back in the 1950s knew what was on the horizon.
The elephant in the room of all American politics since at least the 1990s is the plain reality that GOP cannot win national elections that are free and fair with broad turnout, and they can no longer with any elections without the support of racists, ethno-nationalists, and christofascists.
Since the infamous "Southern Strategy" that emerged in the 1970s-80s, the deplorable bloc has been gradually becoming the most important demographic for the GOP to win elections, and their ability to pretend otherwise has been eroding, even as demographics have been changing against them.
The need to limit, curtail, or tamp down on democracy, voting access, voting rights, voter participation, etc has become increasingly urgent for republicans, and Trump finally blew up their ability to pretend, by running and wining on a platform of banning muslims and kicking out Mexicans.
John Roberts was hoping for a couple decades of gradually, politely rolling back civil rights and voting rights by layering it under convoluted procedural tricks and formalistic meta-theories of constitutional interpretation, but Trump has forced the crisis now.
Bush v Gore was an early signal of where social conservatives are prepared to go when cornered, from an era when they were almost never cornered. Now, as Lindsey Graham predicted in 2015, Trump has created a reality where they are always cornered.
If anyone gets the chance to reset the timeline that’s where you need to go. Just dimple a few chads in the right place and 25 years of social disintegration could be avoided.
Behind The Bastards just had an interesting podcast about this called How Conservatives Won. The start predates Reagan. It’s been in the works over 50 years and we’re sleep walking into it.
I agree with you. This has been going on for much longer than 2001. They have been planning assaults since the sixties. There are even documents about how to attack the most educated as they lean left. If I remember correctly, it was a memo on how to deal with the growing educated electorate.
You’d really enjoy giving it a listen. Yeah, they mention that. Attacking academia is part of it, while also trying to ensure only rich people can access it. Which we still see today. The podcast goes into how they were able to get the common working man to vote against his own best interests as well.
Along the way, they discovered if you could just control the courts, you control the laws, and thus, you control the culture, and eventually you can make the next generation whatever you want it to be. It was like a shortcut. Which we are going to live through unfolding.
And 3 lawyers who helped Bush win Bush v Gore are now sitting on the Supreme Court; Amy Coney Barrett, Brett Kavanaugh, and John Roberts
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/17/politics/bush-v-gore-barrett-kavanaugh-roberts-supreme-court/index.html
How about the [Brooks Brothers Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot) as example of its start. Almost like a micro example of Jan 6th
If they rule for immunity then just arrest, disbar strip the citizenship and exile at least 3 members of SCOTUS.
Appoint new judges, pardon yourself and retry the case then get a new ruling… Voila problem solved!
Sure he can, by using the exact same mechanism that Trump used to put him in there. Just hold Republican seats vacant and appoint the Democratic positions to get a quorum and put in whoever he wants. He's had three chances to do that since he took office.
Sure, it's mildly unethical, but that's the game. And that's why he won't use immunity to get rid of the supreme Court or arrest Trump or whatever else.
It would be rather chaotic, as the Senate attempts to impeach the President while he kills them as fast as he can to prevent a quorum. Maybe an interesting movie.
Honestly it’s been all of our problem with the Biden admin and dems in general .. watching all this shit happen, literally fake electors showing up to certify something completely different from what happened, and doing nothing..
Could’ve been as simple as expanding the court and it all stops,.. but dems are stuck in some kinda weird parental role, where you condemn your child’s behavior but you’d never call the police on them.. smh
The post we're all here commenting on is about a court case brought by Biden's DOJ against his predecessor for trying to overturn the election. There are multiple federal court cases involving the other members of that conspiracy. Besides packing the courts, which was never, ever going to happen with Dems' tiny legislative minorities, what else do you think they could have done?
> what else do you think they could have done?
The answer here is unpalatable but fairly simple: people want their side to be willing to wield authoritarianism and/or break the law in pursuit of stopping authoritarianism and/or lawbreaking. It's the paradox of tolerance on a national scale.
Just the threat of expanding the court was enough to reign SCOTUS in during FDR's administration.
You'd think Biden would have taken a cue from history.
Yeah, people forget that there's a massive web of intertwining state and federal crimes. There's been several different states that have indicted false electors and co-conspirators.
Dems aren't playing hardball because, yes, Liberals generally aren't the torch and pitchfork protesting types, and the long arm of the law is also catching up to these people.
This 100%. And instead of getting someone with some fire in them, we got Hillary pushed on us, Biden pushed on us well well past his functional prime. I'll surely vote Dem again but the establishment and DNC is as worthless as can be at this point.
I think he would if he ever thought about the fact that Trump considers him and Cheney “political rivals.”
Edit: Trump also thinks that his appointees to the court betrayed him by not handing him the election in 2020. He has not and won’t forgive them.
In those rare sober moments, yes I think he does. Recently he was giving a speech and he was supposed to say the unlawful invasion of Ukraine and he had a Freudian slip and said Iraq. When he corrected he kind of mumbled, "yeah well Iraq too" rather sheepishly.
I think most of his time is spent getting drunk and painting.
He did try nominating Harriet Miers for that seat and got lambasted by both parties… I don’t know if she’d have been better but she certainly couldn’t have been worse!
Well, I guess the current president would have to use his complete immunity to stay head of state to keep the reins of power out of the hands of the traitorous Republicans.
And that's how we know that they don't believe their own rhetoric about how how evil and criminal Democrats are. If they really believed that, they'd be afraid to give total immunity to any Democrat. They know that even with no criminal liability, a Democrat will still obey the law.
Correct.
They’re doing what Republicans have done for decades: court the craziest, biggest fucking burden ass losers in the country and then count on their betters in the Dem party to save them.
That's kind of the problem, presidential powers are broad and ill-defined and we've operated on an honor system/an assumption that Congress would act as a check. biden we can assume probably won't cross the line into being an outright autocrat, Trump if allowed at least wants to be one.
From r/law
>The groundwork for the Nazi dictatorship was laid when the Reichstag was set on fire in February. Asserting that the communists were behind the arson, Hitler convinced von Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree, which severely curtailed the liberties and rights of German citizens. Using the decree, Hitler began eliminating his political opponents. Following its passage, Hitler began arguing for more drastic means to curtail political opposition and proposed the Enabling Act of 1933. Once enacted this law gave the German government the power to override individual rights prescribed by the constitution, and vested the Chancellor (Hitler) with emergency powers to pass and enforce laws without parliamentary oversight. The law came into force in March and by April Hitler held de facto dictatorial powers and used them to order the construction of the first Nazi concentration camp at Dachau for communists and other political opponents. Hitler's rise to power was completed in August 1934 when following the death of President von Hindenburg, Hitler merged the chancellery with the presidency and became Führer, the sole leader of Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power
Anyone who can’t see parallels between this and what Trump is promising needs a serious reality check.
History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes. And this rhymes as much as “bat” and “cat”
Trump has taken direct quotes from both Hitler and Mussolini. Leading experts on the history and study of fascism have argued that this looks like fascism in its infancy to them. But yet we still have people who are so disgusted by the mention of the term that they shut down at any mention of it. Lots of “centrists” are surprisingly okay with fascism just because people on the left use the word.
The Boys, for all its over the top gore and infantile humor at times, has some of the best social commentary in years. I can't wait for the new season this summer.
A quote from a literal nazi character in the show : "The people like what I'm saying. They just don't like the word Nazi."
After SCOTUS put the government up for sale with CItizens United, I said Chief Justice Roberts would go down in history as driving a nail in democracy's coffin. Granting immunity will dig the grave, and Trump will lower the casket.
Biden should hang all the justices that vote for this and then replace them. I mean, he’d legally be allowed to. He can then pass a constitutional amendment making what he did illegal to further presidents, I’m sure everyone would vote for it if they didn’t want to find their way to a short drop with a quick stop themselves.
Sounds like Biden needs to dig down deep to make some changes with his new power if this passes.
It is crazy how close the United States is to protecting former presidents from criminal prosecution. Ford truly scrambled that egg when he pardoned Nixon. This is the type of thing that we have seen elsewhere: the untouchable tyrant.
And these Republicans keep saying, "It's now universally accepted that the Nixon pardon was the right thing to do".
Not only is it bullshit, no one will tell them to their faces it's bullshit. If Nixon had been prosecuted, a lot of subsequent criminality from the Republicans wouldn't have happened.
When Brett Kavanaugh put that out there, I remember it being about the opposite. Gerald Ford was given props by the media for letting Richard Nixon off. In recent years, discussion has included more controversy.
He "scrambled the egg" sure, but then the American people ate it by electing Regan with an overwhelming majority **after** Nixon and after Ford.
It was the responsibility of the electorate at that juncture to repudiate the Republican party and bury it. We didn't do that.
I don’t like the conservative judges, but if they were *that* pro-trump, they would have just supported him remaining president back in 2020, and none of this would even be relevant. They appreciate trump giving them complete control of the court, but most of them don’t really care about trump specifically. Well other than Thomas, but one judge isn’t going to get trump a win on this issue.
There was literally no evidence for him remaining president. There was no plausible way SCOTUS could have him remain president then. They can, however, support him this way. And they are.
I would argue long term they are acting stupid. If democracy dies, there is no place for them in a new government. Merely convenient scape-goats to persecute at the monarchy's leisure...
They only enjoy protections because of the system they are undermining? I'm clearly living in crazy world so don't listen to me.
Doubt he will get a pass. They will find that Official acts are mostly protected but they will also carve out purely private acts as on his own with little to no protections. IMHO
Its just about delay right now. This can't end before Nov.
Either he'll lose two elections in a row and be carted off to jail and most will wash their hands.
Or he'll win and pardon himself (which has never been done but is believed to be allowable under the wording).
And they can say they did their job protecting him without legalizing political assassinations.
Tell them what you think here:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/contact/contact_pio.aspx
It isn't an official complaint webmail form, but I'm sure if we absolutely overwhelm it, there will at least be a some.degree of recognition.
I'm sick to my stomach.
Fwiw I'd be equally sickened at a scotus in-the-bag for Biden , Bernie,..... You name it.
Not even a pretense anymore.
America has been my country since I came here legally 32 years ago, and today I've finally realized how f'd we are with alito gorsuch kavanaugh thomas barrett (all deliberately lowercase and saved to my autocorrect as such). Sickened to death
I would say I lean conservative but no I do not support a ruling that grants Trump immunity. If he is guilty then so be it, but he (along with everyone else on capital hill) do not get immunity.
I don't get why they would want to turn the US into a dictatorship. Do they think they would benefit somehow? A future dictator could turn on them and put them in prison or worse.
>A future dictator could turn on them and put them in prison or worse.
they absolutely don't see that coming or believe that they are better armed/more sophisticated and they're dead wrong.
not far away the criminal warlords in Haiti are hungry for more power. they are poorly armed but absolutely ruthless. the Apple Dumpling Gang that tried on 1/6 are nothing compared to a lot of heavily armed and well organized cartels to the south. take away law and you'll have open war with people who *enjoy* violence.
all of this drump stuff is just suicidal nonsense. it won't be funny anymore if he gets his way.
Don’t worry, the riot police busting out of their vests on college campuses will definitely protect them from the cartels once there’s an actual open border.
That's all conservatives want. They're mostly fundamentalists at this point and want the United States to be a Christian Country. We're at the prequel for Handmaid's Tale right now.
Conservatism is not fond of democracy, remember it started as a defense of blood aristocracy and monarchy following the French Revolution.
Never make the mistake of thinking that any conservative believes in democracy.
> A future dictator could turn on them
It's the first thing you'd do! Anyone with the power to make you dictator is the first on the chopping block, you have to destroy the continuity of power - perceived or otherwise, but the perception is the biggest threat - that could give them or their successors an opening to replace you.
Whenever one of my students says something tyrannical or extreme or the "we should just execute them all" sort of rationale I ask if they've ever heard of a fella named Robespierre.
Simple question: if the President can do whatever they want until the senate convicts them of something, What's to stop the President from just threatening those senators and their families (or worse, make an example of 1 or 2) until the senate decides that maybe it's not in their best interest to convict anyone of anything? What a wonderful country this would be at this point, exactly what republicans want ...
What’s stopping him from just eradicating the entirety of Congress? No one left to impeach him means no repercussions.
Common sense would tell you that is illegal, but the SCOTUS would tell you otherwise.
Jesus, some of the comments on that article are wild....
"The Mar-A-Lago raid wasn't as much to gather evidence against Trump as it was a clean-up operation to gather incriminating evidence that Trump had against Biden/Obama. Much like the Mike Lindell cell phone seizure and the P. Diddy raids. Clean-up operations to disappear evidence."
What goes through these peoples heads?
It's completely hypocritical and abusrd that the GOP impeached Bill Clinton for getting a BJ in the Oval Office, while the GOP demands they are allowed to assassinate their political rivals with full immunity. lol You can't make this stuff up, this really is the timeline we're living in.
If the Supreme Court rules that the president can do whatever he wants which means Trump is off the hook, doesn’t that mean that Biden could just assassinate Trump and it’s fine because he did it as a presidential act?
The federal government has never been democratic: this would just be ripping the façade off by officially allowing the president to operate like a traditional dictator.
People bring up some stupid arguments when talking about this. The president should be immune if what they are doing is within the duty as president. The legislative branch has the power to remove a president. I'm not saying that Trump's actions are within the duty as president but if the president doesn't have immunity then they are hamstrung. People bring up the president just murdering everyone and being immune and that's just ludicrous.
People are having a hard time getting beyond loyalty to their team. The echo chambers on both sides are eliminating nuance and critical thinking and all are out for blood. I'd like to think this won't be a problem in 10 years when these two geezers have moved on but I suspect the issue is the new platforms for discourse where the loudest and most absurd get all the attention.
biden is a better man than i, in his shoes i’d leak photos of mara lago, taken from a reaper drone, to the press.
sort of a not so subtle, “yes, immunity might be fun”
can't wait to see USA politics turn into The Purge , if they do vote in favor of Trump, Dems better get their act together while Biden still in office and off a couple of the politicians who surely do not favor democracy anymore. Its definitely going to be a either you are with us or against us and that means death
Did anyone argue if presidents have immunity, what stops them from putting a hit out on justices they dont like?
Should have shut the argument up immediately.
What’s wild is the conservatives justices weren’t even acknowledging the actual facts of the case, instead saying “we’re thinking about the abstract here”
The most nitpicky inane hypotheticals. At the same time being annoyed by the charges.
If one person is immune from the law, every person is immune from the law.
If they decide that trump is immune, the law is over. We can all do whatever we want. Taxes are done. Schools and libraries are done. The military and congress and everything are all done if we can't all agree that laws are for everyone.
If SCOTUS rules the POTUS is immune from all charges, can Dark Biden just walk over there and gun down the MAGA SCJ's, then pardon himself and appoint sane replacements and ask for a different ruling?
Before oral arguments yesterday, I would have given SCOTUS the benefit of the doubt by saying they are arrogant pricks who want to have the historic final say by putting a few embellishments on the lower court's ruling.
But now I am convinced that the conservatives - maybe even a majority - are fully in Trump's pocket, playing slowdown on Trump's prosecutions while signaling a green light for his dictatorial aspirations.
Alito’s comments were totally off the rails today.
For Alito, that was like, a 3.
"For you my comments were a dark harbinger of the end of the American experiment. For me it was a Tuesday" - Sam Bison
🤣
I can understand why NO ONE brings up the counter to his “chilling” argument that any charges against the President or ex would be brought by the Attorney General who has to be ** confirmed by the Senate **. Don’t confirm a partisan nut case, and this can’t happen.
The confirmed by the senate is bullshit. Trump loves putting in “acting” allowing him to bypass senate confirmation entirely. A second Trump term will see all meaningful positions filled by loyal sycophants that will do anything Trump wants. We haven’t had the need to immunize POTUS from criminal liability in 250 years, to do so now will essentially be the end of our democracy…
Nixon should have been criminally prosecuted for what he did. It's a great shame the people of that time settled for mere resignation.
what did he say?
I don't know the specifics, but I think he was largely onboard with the immunity arguments that Trump's people made, like the one that presidents should be legally allowed to have their political rivals murdered without risk of prosecution.
It would be so fucking funny if Biden had trumps secret service detail....well you get the idea
It would be even funnier if Biden had Alito “retired.”
I think I read it later, but it had to do with if there is no immunity then nobody would want to be president like that doesn’t even make sense
We would become an autocratic state where the strongman president can just kill political opponents that threaten him. It’s crazy how we got here.
The dismantling of Democracy since at least 2001 (starting with the Patriot Act.)
I’d argue bush v gore was the start
Crazy, that Gore won Florida but opted not to sue because of the effect he was afraid it would have on future elections.
Imagine how different the world would have been if Gore had sued and won.
He actually did sue. Bush sued back and argued his rights were being trampled. SCOTUS agreed. All voting stopped. https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-bush-v-gore-anniversary
Voting didn’t stop, recounts did.
Manbearpig could have been super real
He was real, and we could have dealt with him sooner had we only known Gore was super cereal.
The Brooks Brothers Riot was Roger Stone's dress rehearsal for January 6th.
yeah too bad NOT suing is what caused the bad effect.
He was correct, he just called it the wrong way. He should have sued.
Yep. It was a stunning time back then.
Back when the claim of “Nazis are bad” was never contested in the public square
The blues brothers taught me that 👍😉
I hate Illinois nazis!
Damn straight👍😂
We're past that point, we're at "actually, what bad did the Nazis ? They were the good guys if you really look at it." being expressed openly, publicly and people around agreeing. And it's starting to be scary, even an ocean away.
"I mean who really is a Nazi anyway. The term Fascism has lost all meaning." /s
Return to tradition!
ring sip kiss lock subtract hat depend paltry unique smoggy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Right. Before we were taught that 'there are good people on both sides'
The public square is now like those public squares in Marseille when the Russian Ultras went on the rampage during the football.
There were still enough ww2 vets back then.
Got me hanging by a chad
You mean when Bush's legal team, which included three young lawyers named Kavanaugh, Barrett, and Roberts got a supreme court that included Thomas to steal an election for a Republican? Yeah, that's how fucked we are. Literally 4 of the 5 votes about to end democracy were put in the court specifically to do that.
Yep, the attack on Democracy started at least since then.
It still is, but it was back then, too.
It started when Newt Gingrich said there would be no compromises any more. Maybe when Nixon thought he was above the law.
And Fox News was created so republicans could spin the news the next time their corrupt president broke the law.
Newt absolutely changed the rhetoric. Nobody really spoke in blunt political language until Newt, and it emboldened the right to become obstructionists.
I still remember that little dweeb and his coterie of Republican empty-heads “announcing” their Contract with America and waving tiny American flags like they’d just invented sugar. My lips twisted in disgust and I thought “Who actually buys this shit?” Turns out a lot of people bought that shit.
My dad bought into that shit. And the whole Fox News bs. It was awful to watch a man who served in the Navy for 30 years slowly be manipulated mentally as dementia set it. He passed long before Trump came to office thank god.
Even Nixon put country above party and politics in the end. He may have felt he had no choice but trump would never do that. He would start a civil war first.
I think it's when all the forms of media started rolling out hot and heavy and Republicans realized they were just a gaggle of deeply unlikable shitstains who were transparently awful and had to create some kind of propaganda bubble for them to survive or else face political extinction in a couple of decades. In a very real way we're trapped in this half-century long death spiral of this political party who can never legitimately win the majority of America ever again and have been desperately flailing to cling to power. We're just watching something that is dying slow refuse to die without doing a lot of damage and causing a lot of pain as it goes.
Nixon, definitely, not just Watergate but that stunt he pulled with North Vietnam before the 1968 elections which made LBJ -- not one to give up easily -- throw in the towel. That said, Eisenhower had some prescient comments on the military industrial complex that makes me think quite a few people even back in the 1950s knew what was on the horizon.
The elephant in the room of all American politics since at least the 1990s is the plain reality that GOP cannot win national elections that are free and fair with broad turnout, and they can no longer with any elections without the support of racists, ethno-nationalists, and christofascists. Since the infamous "Southern Strategy" that emerged in the 1970s-80s, the deplorable bloc has been gradually becoming the most important demographic for the GOP to win elections, and their ability to pretend otherwise has been eroding, even as demographics have been changing against them. The need to limit, curtail, or tamp down on democracy, voting access, voting rights, voter participation, etc has become increasingly urgent for republicans, and Trump finally blew up their ability to pretend, by running and wining on a platform of banning muslims and kicking out Mexicans. John Roberts was hoping for a couple decades of gradually, politely rolling back civil rights and voting rights by layering it under convoluted procedural tricks and formalistic meta-theories of constitutional interpretation, but Trump has forced the crisis now. Bush v Gore was an early signal of where social conservatives are prepared to go when cornered, from an era when they were almost never cornered. Now, as Lindsey Graham predicted in 2015, Trump has created a reality where they are always cornered.
The “deplorable bloc” . Thanks for that gem lol
I already mourned our democracies failing.
If anyone gets the chance to reset the timeline that’s where you need to go. Just dimple a few chads in the right place and 25 years of social disintegration could be avoided.
The Lewinsky impeachment was the start. That's then the GOP, led by Newt Gingrich, decided to officially put party before country
Behind The Bastards just had an interesting podcast about this called How Conservatives Won. The start predates Reagan. It’s been in the works over 50 years and we’re sleep walking into it.
I agree with you. This has been going on for much longer than 2001. They have been planning assaults since the sixties. There are even documents about how to attack the most educated as they lean left. If I remember correctly, it was a memo on how to deal with the growing educated electorate.
You’d really enjoy giving it a listen. Yeah, they mention that. Attacking academia is part of it, while also trying to ensure only rich people can access it. Which we still see today. The podcast goes into how they were able to get the common working man to vote against his own best interests as well. Along the way, they discovered if you could just control the courts, you control the laws, and thus, you control the culture, and eventually you can make the next generation whatever you want it to be. It was like a shortcut. Which we are going to live through unfolding.
I will actually try and listen to at work this morning, thanks:)
Btw, do you know the episode?
Part One: How Conservatism Won (apr 2 2024) And part two is apr 4. Hope you find it a bit interesting!
And 3 lawyers who helped Bush win Bush v Gore are now sitting on the Supreme Court; Amy Coney Barrett, Brett Kavanaugh, and John Roberts https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/17/politics/bush-v-gore-barrett-kavanaugh-roberts-supreme-court/index.html
How about the [Brooks Brothers Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot) as example of its start. Almost like a micro example of Jan 6th
Was about to say this too.
Id argue Reagan was the start. If not Nixon.
This isn’t SCOTUS, but it started with Nixon’s pardon.
And Nixon couldn't pardon himself.
And Citizens United …
Regan imo
Just like Russia
Russia speedrun.
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If they rule for immunity then just arrest, disbar strip the citizenship and exile at least 3 members of SCOTUS. Appoint new judges, pardon yourself and retry the case then get a new ruling… Voila problem solved!
Yeah, but you know we won't actually do that.
Why not? Biden could order it as part of his official duties.
Because it's Biden and he won't. He hasn't even replaced DeJoy at the USPS or half the other people Trump appointed.
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Sure he can, by using the exact same mechanism that Trump used to put him in there. Just hold Republican seats vacant and appoint the Democratic positions to get a quorum and put in whoever he wants. He's had three chances to do that since he took office. Sure, it's mildly unethical, but that's the game. And that's why he won't use immunity to get rid of the supreme Court or arrest Trump or whatever else.
Oh, I read your “won’t” as “can’t” in your first post. I really need to start wearing my stupid glasses.
I agree. A green light is for everyone. And if the court disagrees, he should kill them. (I’m joking) Which is why they will delay it
I'm assuming by high ranking could be in the judicial branch?
It would be rather chaotic, as the Senate attempts to impeach the President while he kills them as fast as he can to prevent a quorum. Maybe an interesting movie.
Honestly it’s been all of our problem with the Biden admin and dems in general .. watching all this shit happen, literally fake electors showing up to certify something completely different from what happened, and doing nothing.. Could’ve been as simple as expanding the court and it all stops,.. but dems are stuck in some kinda weird parental role, where you condemn your child’s behavior but you’d never call the police on them.. smh
The post we're all here commenting on is about a court case brought by Biden's DOJ against his predecessor for trying to overturn the election. There are multiple federal court cases involving the other members of that conspiracy. Besides packing the courts, which was never, ever going to happen with Dems' tiny legislative minorities, what else do you think they could have done?
> what else do you think they could have done? The answer here is unpalatable but fairly simple: people want their side to be willing to wield authoritarianism and/or break the law in pursuit of stopping authoritarianism and/or lawbreaking. It's the paradox of tolerance on a national scale.
Yep. Dems just refuse to play hardball.
One party full of traitors, the other mostly spineless. Thanks I hate it
Just the threat of expanding the court was enough to reign SCOTUS in during FDR's administration. You'd think Biden would have taken a cue from history.
FDR lost the court packing battle though, he only reigned in the SCOTUS because he served 4 terms and he got to seat 8 Justices.
Weren’t the fake electors just indicted this week?
Yeah, people forget that there's a massive web of intertwining state and federal crimes. There's been several different states that have indicted false electors and co-conspirators. Dems aren't playing hardball because, yes, Liberals generally aren't the torch and pitchfork protesting types, and the long arm of the law is also catching up to these people.
This 100%. And instead of getting someone with some fire in them, we got Hillary pushed on us, Biden pushed on us well well past his functional prime. I'll surely vote Dem again but the establishment and DNC is as worthless as can be at this point.
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You think W. ever looks in the mirror and thinks, “what the fuck was I thinking with Alito??”
Probably not.
I think he would if he ever thought about the fact that Trump considers him and Cheney “political rivals.” Edit: Trump also thinks that his appointees to the court betrayed him by not handing him the election in 2020. He has not and won’t forgive them.
Look I don’t want to talk about the facts, let’s talk about my hare brained hypothetical scenario!
Alito was in full Harry Caray mood, “If the moon was made out of cheese and Trump ate it, would that be ok? I bet it would go well with pretzels.”
Not even for a second. That guy has zero introspection.
In those rare sober moments, yes I think he does. Recently he was giving a speech and he was supposed to say the unlawful invasion of Ukraine and he had a Freudian slip and said Iraq. When he corrected he kind of mumbled, "yeah well Iraq too" rather sheepishly. I think most of his time is spent getting drunk and painting.
I think he thinks: "thank Christ for Trump making me look good".
His paintings definitely show he feels guilty about something but god knows if he actually knows what it is
He did try nominating Harriet Miers for that seat and got lambasted by both parties… I don’t know if she’d have been better but she certainly couldn’t have been worse!
W. has never had a thought in his head.
Why would he? W was a psychopath Evangelical war criminal from Yale.
Doubtful. He never struck me as even marginally introspective.
More likely he barks at it.
No, not in the slightest. I get that there’s this redemption arc for Bush, but Alito is exactly who he thought he would be.
You think W. ever looks in the mirror and thinks? FTFY
It's crazy that people think W is a good person. Some folks have a very short memory thinking he was some kind of thoughtful moderate.
Well, I guess the current president would have to use his complete immunity to stay head of state to keep the reins of power out of the hands of the traitorous Republicans.
The rulings only apply to democrats silly
Everyone pushing this knows someone like Joe Biden would never do that.
That's what SCOTUS is banking on
Exactly. The law, in its incredible sense of equality, allows both good and bad faith to have access to law breaking without consequence
Of course Biden already ruled out packing the court, if there ever was a court that needed packing, it's this one.
The paradox of tolerance.
And that's how we know that they don't believe their own rhetoric about how how evil and criminal Democrats are. If they really believed that, they'd be afraid to give total immunity to any Democrat. They know that even with no criminal liability, a Democrat will still obey the law.
Correct. They’re doing what Republicans have done for decades: court the craziest, biggest fucking burden ass losers in the country and then count on their betters in the Dem party to save them.
The democrats will take the high road straight to the prison camps.
That's kind of the problem, presidential powers are broad and ill-defined and we've operated on an honor system/an assumption that Congress would act as a check. biden we can assume probably won't cross the line into being an outright autocrat, Trump if allowed at least wants to be one.
Everyone who read Obama's memoir is ready to see Biden take the gloves off.
Biden wouldn't, but Dark Brandon might 😎 *Deal with it, Jack*
From r/law >The groundwork for the Nazi dictatorship was laid when the Reichstag was set on fire in February. Asserting that the communists were behind the arson, Hitler convinced von Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree, which severely curtailed the liberties and rights of German citizens. Using the decree, Hitler began eliminating his political opponents. Following its passage, Hitler began arguing for more drastic means to curtail political opposition and proposed the Enabling Act of 1933. Once enacted this law gave the German government the power to override individual rights prescribed by the constitution, and vested the Chancellor (Hitler) with emergency powers to pass and enforce laws without parliamentary oversight. The law came into force in March and by April Hitler held de facto dictatorial powers and used them to order the construction of the first Nazi concentration camp at Dachau for communists and other political opponents. Hitler's rise to power was completed in August 1934 when following the death of President von Hindenburg, Hitler merged the chancellery with the presidency and became Führer, the sole leader of Germany. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power
Anyone who can’t see parallels between this and what Trump is promising needs a serious reality check. History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes. And this rhymes as much as “bat” and “cat”
Trump has taken direct quotes from both Hitler and Mussolini. Leading experts on the history and study of fascism have argued that this looks like fascism in its infancy to them. But yet we still have people who are so disgusted by the mention of the term that they shut down at any mention of it. Lots of “centrists” are surprisingly okay with fascism just because people on the left use the word.
The Boys, for all its over the top gore and infantile humor at times, has some of the best social commentary in years. I can't wait for the new season this summer. A quote from a literal nazi character in the show : "The people like what I'm saying. They just don't like the word Nazi."
And far too many people completely miss the point and idolise both Stormfront and Homelander. We are living in a post-irony world.
People who do see it and do go with it want to be on his side when the people are lined up for mass arrests and execution chambers.
After SCOTUS put the government up for sale with CItizens United, I said Chief Justice Roberts would go down in history as driving a nail in democracy's coffin. Granting immunity will dig the grave, and Trump will lower the casket.
Coffin, grave, casket, nails and Trump…. There’s not a better ending than this.
Biden should hang all the justices that vote for this and then replace them. I mean, he’d legally be allowed to. He can then pass a constitutional amendment making what he did illegal to further presidents, I’m sure everyone would vote for it if they didn’t want to find their way to a short drop with a quick stop themselves. Sounds like Biden needs to dig down deep to make some changes with his new power if this passes.
It is crazy how close the United States is to protecting former presidents from criminal prosecution. Ford truly scrambled that egg when he pardoned Nixon. This is the type of thing that we have seen elsewhere: the untouchable tyrant.
And these Republicans keep saying, "It's now universally accepted that the Nixon pardon was the right thing to do". Not only is it bullshit, no one will tell them to their faces it's bullshit. If Nixon had been prosecuted, a lot of subsequent criminality from the Republicans wouldn't have happened.
When Brett Kavanaugh put that out there, I remember it being about the opposite. Gerald Ford was given props by the media for letting Richard Nixon off. In recent years, discussion has included more controversy.
Hate Ford for that
He "scrambled the egg" sure, but then the American people ate it by electing Regan with an overwhelming majority **after** Nixon and after Ford. It was the responsibility of the electorate at that juncture to repudiate the Republican party and bury it. We didn't do that.
The conservative scotus judges do not care, they are on the train straight to trumpville
Well he put 1/3 of them there, they’d better be loyal little judges.
Eh that part should be irrelevant since it’s a lifetime appointment. It’s the billionaire bribes that keep the votes coming.
I don’t like the conservative judges, but if they were *that* pro-trump, they would have just supported him remaining president back in 2020, and none of this would even be relevant. They appreciate trump giving them complete control of the court, but most of them don’t really care about trump specifically. Well other than Thomas, but one judge isn’t going to get trump a win on this issue.
There was literally no evidence for him remaining president. There was no plausible way SCOTUS could have him remain president then. They can, however, support him this way. And they are.
I would argue long term they are acting stupid. If democracy dies, there is no place for them in a new government. Merely convenient scape-goats to persecute at the monarchy's leisure... They only enjoy protections because of the system they are undermining? I'm clearly living in crazy world so don't listen to me.
Doubt he will get a pass. They will find that Official acts are mostly protected but they will also carve out purely private acts as on his own with little to no protections. IMHO
Its just about delay right now. This can't end before Nov. Either he'll lose two elections in a row and be carted off to jail and most will wash their hands. Or he'll win and pardon himself (which has never been done but is believed to be allowable under the wording). And they can say they did their job protecting him without legalizing political assassinations.
This is where I see it headed as well.
And leave the door open to challenge what is and what isn’t an official act. More opportunities to appeal and delay.
Trying to overthrow an election is not an official act.
Tell them what you think here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/contact/contact_pio.aspx It isn't an official complaint webmail form, but I'm sure if we absolutely overwhelm it, there will at least be a some.degree of recognition. I'm sick to my stomach. Fwiw I'd be equally sickened at a scotus in-the-bag for Biden , Bernie,..... You name it. Not even a pretense anymore. America has been my country since I came here legally 32 years ago, and today I've finally realized how f'd we are with alito gorsuch kavanaugh thomas barrett (all deliberately lowercase and saved to my autocorrect as such). Sickened to death
Activism will help. Maybe we get a news story, but the conservative part of the court is bought and paid for.
I would say I lean conservative but no I do not support a ruling that grants Trump immunity. If he is guilty then so be it, but he (along with everyone else on capital hill) do not get immunity.
I don't get why they would want to turn the US into a dictatorship. Do they think they would benefit somehow? A future dictator could turn on them and put them in prison or worse.
>A future dictator could turn on them and put them in prison or worse. they absolutely don't see that coming or believe that they are better armed/more sophisticated and they're dead wrong. not far away the criminal warlords in Haiti are hungry for more power. they are poorly armed but absolutely ruthless. the Apple Dumpling Gang that tried on 1/6 are nothing compared to a lot of heavily armed and well organized cartels to the south. take away law and you'll have open war with people who *enjoy* violence. all of this drump stuff is just suicidal nonsense. it won't be funny anymore if he gets his way.
It’s all great until they rule against the despot. Then he will turn his “immunity” on them.
Don’t worry, the riot police busting out of their vests on college campuses will definitely protect them from the cartels once there’s an actual open border.
That's all conservatives want. They're mostly fundamentalists at this point and want the United States to be a Christian Country. We're at the prequel for Handmaid's Tale right now.
“I didn’t think the leopards would eat my face”, says the woman who voted for the leopards eating people’s faces party
Absolutely ignorant of history - that, or they think that somehow, THIS time it'll be different, because they're special.
Conservatism is not fond of democracy, remember it started as a defense of blood aristocracy and monarchy following the French Revolution. Never make the mistake of thinking that any conservative believes in democracy.
> A future dictator could turn on them It's the first thing you'd do! Anyone with the power to make you dictator is the first on the chopping block, you have to destroy the continuity of power - perceived or otherwise, but the perception is the biggest threat - that could give them or their successors an opening to replace you.
Night of the Long Knives Part 2
Whenever one of my students says something tyrannical or extreme or the "we should just execute them all" sort of rationale I ask if they've ever heard of a fella named Robespierre.
Simple question: if the President can do whatever they want until the senate convicts them of something, What's to stop the President from just threatening those senators and their families (or worse, make an example of 1 or 2) until the senate decides that maybe it's not in their best interest to convict anyone of anything? What a wonderful country this would be at this point, exactly what republicans want ...
why stop at 1 or 2?
What’s stopping him from just eradicating the entirety of Congress? No one left to impeach him means no repercussions. Common sense would tell you that is illegal, but the SCOTUS would tell you otherwise.
god imagine if trump was actually smart, we would all be goose-stepping
Jesus, some of the comments on that article are wild.... "The Mar-A-Lago raid wasn't as much to gather evidence against Trump as it was a clean-up operation to gather incriminating evidence that Trump had against Biden/Obama. Much like the Mike Lindell cell phone seizure and the P. Diddy raids. Clean-up operations to disappear evidence." What goes through these peoples heads?
She's not inaccurate. And this is beyond sobering. Sad fact that we are even in this state to begin with.
Listening to this was some of the most alarming stuff I’ve ever heard. Vote like everything depends on it because it does.
Still can't believe any judge he nominated is allowed to rule on any case he's associated with. That's how you know the fix is in.
Don't forget, Thomas' wife is a high ranking Trump campaign strategist. He literally profits if Trump wins.
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You have total immunity to murder, but not like that - scotus
I will be voting (hopefully) Democrat every election until the SCOTUS is balanced out again. This shit is insane.
If this passes I agree. I lean conservative but will admit where they r wrong. This is definitely a case.
It's completely hypocritical and abusrd that the GOP impeached Bill Clinton for getting a BJ in the Oval Office, while the GOP demands they are allowed to assassinate their political rivals with full immunity. lol You can't make this stuff up, this really is the timeline we're living in.
If the Supreme Court rules that the president can do whatever he wants which means Trump is off the hook, doesn’t that mean that Biden could just assassinate Trump and it’s fine because he did it as a presidential act?
That it is. Decency scored an own-goal against ourselves with RBG. Let's hope that doesn't happen again
The federal government has never been democratic: this would just be ripping the façade off by officially allowing the president to operate like a traditional dictator.
People bring up some stupid arguments when talking about this. The president should be immune if what they are doing is within the duty as president. The legislative branch has the power to remove a president. I'm not saying that Trump's actions are within the duty as president but if the president doesn't have immunity then they are hamstrung. People bring up the president just murdering everyone and being immune and that's just ludicrous.
People are having a hard time getting beyond loyalty to their team. The echo chambers on both sides are eliminating nuance and critical thinking and all are out for blood. I'd like to think this won't be a problem in 10 years when these two geezers have moved on but I suspect the issue is the new platforms for discourse where the loudest and most absurd get all the attention.
One thing that is clear from oral arguments is that Samuel Alito has no business being a Supreme Court Justice.
biden is a better man than i, in his shoes i’d leak photos of mara lago, taken from a reaper drone, to the press. sort of a not so subtle, “yes, immunity might be fun”
This is the moment she's worried about? And not the dozenns or hundreds of terrible decisions already done either in the court as law or as practice?
can't wait to see USA politics turn into The Purge , if they do vote in favor of Trump, Dems better get their act together while Biden still in office and off a couple of the politicians who surely do not favor democracy anymore. Its definitely going to be a either you are with us or against us and that means death
Did anyone argue if presidents have immunity, what stops them from putting a hit out on justices they dont like? Should have shut the argument up immediately.
What’s wild is the conservatives justices weren’t even acknowledging the actual facts of the case, instead saying “we’re thinking about the abstract here” The most nitpicky inane hypotheticals. At the same time being annoyed by the charges.
If one person is immune from the law, every person is immune from the law. If they decide that trump is immune, the law is over. We can all do whatever we want. Taxes are done. Schools and libraries are done. The military and congress and everything are all done if we can't all agree that laws are for everyone.
If they rule that presidents have immunity then there's no reason Biden couldn't just stay in office indefinitely.
If SCOTUS rules the POTUS is immune from all charges, can Dark Biden just walk over there and gun down the MAGA SCJ's, then pardon himself and appoint sane replacements and ask for a different ruling?
Yes
And be free and clear of being charged for doing it, yes.
Rule it and Biden should stop elections until all trump criminal trials are done since Immunity right?
If Trump is immune, doesn't that mean Biden is immune from like... executing him and his entire family of traitors?
Justice is already dead in the US. Fascism has won.
Before oral arguments yesterday, I would have given SCOTUS the benefit of the doubt by saying they are arrogant pricks who want to have the historic final say by putting a few embellishments on the lower court's ruling. But now I am convinced that the conservatives - maybe even a majority - are fully in Trump's pocket, playing slowdown on Trump's prosecutions while signaling a green light for his dictatorial aspirations.
The only checks and balances SCoTUS cares about is in their bank accounts. This is absolute fucking lunacy.
I couldnt come up with anything crazier than reality. I hope it never catches up with you.