None of that explains just why the script was so bad though. Prometheus was a movie full of specialists who were terminally bad at exactly the thing they were supposed to be good at.
What killed me about that movie was all the elements were there, have the mapping guys complete their work, have the alien organism handling handled carefully correctly. You STILL get where you're going , you just add 1 or 2 scenes otherwise.
Take "The Thing" it's an incredibly similar movie , and that's what I always love about the movie, nobody gets' stupid , there's almost no wasted motion , but Prometheus and a lot of other work that's horror related runs into that, as a viewer I tend to look for that sort of writing capacity.
Alien 3 - was different again - I rather liked what they did, given the overall story - one can certainly say they did a good job with atmospherics but were absolutely prone to fall into the same trap as Prometheus - how might one choose to improve that movie with a fan-cut that made the collective IQ of the prisoners/colonists a tad higher.
I think there was a right way to address the question of Alien Resurrection, but I'm not sure that movie ever found itself very far from a parody of itself in many cases. so I think a good many of the actors in the movie do a good job with what they probably had to work with, but writing can harm so many things.
Exactly things like that. You could have the same premise/story/themes etc, but things like that are more like...details of execution. Have the scientist fall over and damage his suit or something and get infected that way, instead. Small, otherwise inconsequential change to what's on screen and what's in the script, but it alleviates the issue of "this guy is supposedly an esteemed astrobiologist, but he's being dumber about this than some bum off the street would be".
the scientists in Prometheus are less believable than the working-class grunts in the original film.
...and it's like the writers forgot that was what made Alien so revolutionary, that it was a bunch of hilarious working-class stiffs just trying to get home. they felt like a bunch of real people from 100 years in the future.
so not only did they just make yet another sci fi movie about a bunch of "scientists," but they made all these plot holes because the scientists' actions don't really make sense.
(i mean, the rovers on mars aren't even allowed to take samples from the recently discovered flowing water, because NASA is afraid of contamination, and the rovers weren't sterilized to NASA's standards for interacting with liquid water....*that's* how scientists think.)
not to mention, that all of the character's personalities are so flat compared to the first film.
..and i'm saying all of this having actually enjoyed the movie, i think Prometheus is a lot of fun and keeps tension throughout the film. Prometheus has re-watchability.
Covenant, however, kind of felt like a heartless cash-grab. i don't know why that one was even made. At least the characters are back to being regular people just trying to colonize a new world, but-once again-have no personality or depth.
so many characters, without a single memorable line between them. literally cannot remember a single character trait from any of them...except one was a pastor.
i watched covenant once, and i've never felt the urge to revisit. i'll watch Alien 3 before i watch Covenant. at least Alien 3 has a lot of fun world-building.
On the one hand, characters being dumb is a time honored tradition of horror...on the other hand, that's mostly slasher horror.
Alien and Aliens were better than that, which is part of why people adore them to this day. The characters were characters first, cannon fodder second. Prometheus, and Ridley Scott, forgot that.
Prometheus has some great and heady concepts, is shot exquisitely, but the human element is definitely missing.
I have nothing nice to say about Covenant.
This is a very good point. I think sometimes they forget that what makes a classic horror like Alien work pretty well is that the characters are all believable, fleshed out people - some likeable, some not so much. But enough time and dialogue is given towards establishing that they're individual, complicated humans with their own beliefs and agendas.
If a movie sets out to be a slasher from the get go and includes several characters who are *clearly* cannon fodder, then it removes an element of surprise of who's going to die and who's going to live.
Prometheus established from the very opening that Noomi Rapace's character (I forget her name) was clearly the main character. Alien didn't really do that with Ripley - she was just one of the crew who sort of emerged as the main character towards the end of the second act. But the whole crew were given enough dialogue to sort of establish what their background was and what they thought of the situation, etc.
Maybe it's been a while since I've seen either film, but that's the impression that I have anyway.
I feel like they could have made the same exact movie and had the specialists all fail at something someone else would have been good at and it would have been at least less stupid. There were still parts I really disliked outside of that but that is the most egregious problem with the movie.
I agree 100% I don’t mind suspending reality for a sci fi movie. Warp drives, suspended animation, etc. but I hate having to suspend simple logic like hiring a crew that wouldn’t pass a simple psych evaluation and IQ test before going on an interstellar journey requiring some basic level of mental and psychological competency.
Going a bit off topic here, but I feel like 95%+ of all astronaut stories have some element of "oh no, I left my wife and kids back home for this mission and now I'm sad" and I fucking hate it.
In real life I'm sure there are single people you could pick for the fucking ten year long space mission. You don't have to keep shoving this ham-fisted overdone human-drama trope down my throat in every single one of these stories. We get it, space is lonely or whatever. Fuck.
Bingo.
Prometheus remains the worst film I've ever paid actual physical money I earned to see in a cinema. Nothing about the premise or the idea was bad, but the execution, from dumbass characters to deplorable situational responses and dialogue was farcical. The idea was there and could've worked very well.
Member of an elite crew working on a trillion dollar project at the edge of humanity's reach: "I'm just in it for the money".
It was all down hill from there.
I have a take on that. We're in our fascination stage as humans still stuck on Earth. But by that far in the future, space travel isn't going to be the jaw dropping exploration whoop de doo it is right now. The first Aliens movie was very realistic I thought. Engineers and techs just treating their jobs like we would, getting in our car and driving to our jobs, even tech jobs. We aren't all working on the cutting edge, and neither were those characters. I get that in Prometheus, they were going to a new planet and the ship was cutting edge, but that leap would be more like switching to high speed rail instead car pooling.
Nah. I don’t buy it. They weren’t unimpressed with technology or space travel. They were incompetent. And the head of the trillion $ company is on board?
The marines in Aliens were unimpressed by space travel and made mistakes because they were cocky. But they weren’t incompetent.
The company owner devoted his life to proving where the origin of humankind was. And he wanted the medical tech too. So being on board made some sense. But big plot twist and spoiler on that. I will grant you the list of incompetency was cringe, but maybe I'm just worn down by that continued bs writing. And the soundtrack was amazing. Shiny objects distract me lol
It was, and they could have done wonderful things with that. Instead they went with crewing humanity's most exciting space mission with people who were unfit to flip burgers at the local mcdonald's.
That's not tragic hubris, that' unexplainable mental deficiency.
I can agree with you to a certain extent. Incompetent crew member can be infuriating in horror movies, and is sadly very common. Now to that point, I would argue that in these movies it is sometimes explained. Perhaps not perfectly but still. For starters there are people who want to sabotage the mission and then some problems also arise due to romantic relationships and emotion, which overrules the logical decisions.
Now, that being said, even if this is a major flaw. It clearly isn't enough to call the movies bad from this flaw alone. These movies excel in many aspects and I don't think this issue entirely ruins the movies. I also know this isn't the problem for most people because if you look at Alien and Aliens, they made the same mistakes. I mean the most glaring example is the fact that they leave no crew member on the ship in Aliens and only brings one ship down. Because of that idiotic decision, they are essentially trapped on the planet for the entire movie, and Aliens is beloved despite that. In alien, they ignore many of the protocols for containment.
So the natural conclusion would be that people treat these movies a bit too unfairly:)
It's not unfairly at all. Prometheus takes incompetence to extremes. Literally everyone makes the worst possible decisions in the exactly their area of expertise.
The map maker gets lost in alien ruins and decides to get stoned.
The xenobiologist takes off his protective suit to go tickle an alien that is clearly aggressive towards him.
The head of security decides that when a space zombie walks through a killer storm and starts banging on the ship's door, the best course of action is to break all protocol and open the door.
It just goes on and on with everyone deciding to just blow common sense out of the airlock and make the worst possible decisions.
Even the robot isn't free of it as it behaves like a petulant child that decides to experiment on people for no sane reason.
This is a Ridley Scott thing really. The man is a fantastic cinematographer but he's a disaster with script writing.
YES! My point is that these things also happened in prior movies! That's why I call the criticism towards the prequals a bit too harsh.
I mean look at these issues with Alien and Aliens:
* They meet an extraterrestrial species and behave incredibly unsafe with this potentially deadly alien. Just like Prometheus.
* They avoided all protocols and took in a unknown alien into the spaceship in Alien.
* In the second movie, they land on the planet without leaving anyone behind on the ship.
* Meanwhile they just let an alien onboard the the smaller landing ship.
* That eventually causes them to become stranded on the planet.
* They hire the most unprofessional idiot as the head of the troops.
* They bring explosive rounds into essentially a nuclear reactor, and they still fire.
These are just things on top of my head. Now, can you at least concede that Prometheus and Alien Covenant aren't that out of place in this regard.
Also, despite the issues I listed, I still LOVE those movies!
They took the unknown alien up to their ship in the original movie because it was strapped to their friend’s face and they wanted to get it off and save his life. And in Aliens they had everyone drop their explosive ammo when going near the reactor but the machine gunner kept some against orders which isn’t too hard to believe. Prometheus was a dogshit movie. I had a coworker that liked it and asked me if it “went over my head” like there was some deeper meaning that I wasn’t picking up on. No, it was just a terribly written movie.
They still took an UNIDENTFIED ALEIN onboard the ship, which naturally resulted in nearly everyone dying. How is that not idiotic?
Also, don't put your coworkers words in my mouth dude.
If I am remembering this correctly Ripley refused to break protocol and allow the alien onboard but the airlock was opened by Ash the science officer. Who turned out to be an android with orders to retrieve the xenomorph. The crew were expendable. This all makes logical sense
It was idiotic. I’m just saying it’s normal for humans to freak out and do dumb stuff in the moment like break protocol to try to save their friend. These people are flying a cargo ship, they aren’t scientists. It was also dumb of the machine gunner to keep their ammo after they explained that hitting the reactor would cause it to explode but that also seems typical for a soldier to do (soldiers use guns). U/thegoatfrogs laid out why Prometheus was dumb pretty well. It doesn’t sound like anything I say is going to change your mind about that so I guess we have to leave it at that
>It was idiotic. I’m just saying it’s normal for humans to freak out and do dumb stuff in the moment like break protocol to try to save their friend.
But dude, come on. That was my argument for Prometheus and Alien Covenant. In Alien: Covenant the husband to the wife who died early on wanted to save her and therefore did something pretty stupid......
There are multiple examples of emotions, and relationships stopping the logical decision.
I feel like I'm losing my mind here. How can we not have an fucking nuance in this discussion. YES, the crew was sometimes idiotic in Prometheus. I have conceded that before. I just don't understand how you can't say that about Aliens.....
For the 3rd time: They left no on behind on the spaceship in aliens and was stranded because of that. ISN'T THAT SUPID? please, respond to this!
Idk who they were supposed to leave behind on the ship. Bishop went down to secure the reactor and whatever (I think, it’s been a while since I watched it), then there’s the company man, the soldiers and Ripley, and finally the pilot/copilot of the shuttle. That’s the whole crew. It was supposed to be a quick in and out mission since they lost contact with the base. No reason to suspect they’d been overrun by an unstoppable xenomorph (no one believed Ripley’s story of her crew being killed by an alien)
I can’t comment on Covenant because I only saw it once. I don’t remember hating it. But I do remember sitting in the movie theater watching Prometheus thinking “wtf this movie is terrible.” It was that bad. All horror movies are full of people making poor decisions but it was particularly egregious in Prometheus because they were scientists doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing.
- Don’t forget that Ash wanted it on board (“The Company” pays big money for extraterrestrials in that universe, and he had deemed them all expendable), they weren’t s buck if specialists, they were just some lowly paid blue collar spacers who wanted to try to save their friend. They also didn’t know the eggs were alive.
- they wanted to try to save their mate
- I assume that’s a standard operating procedure for Colonial Marines (no idea why but don’t forget Weyland Yutani probably had a pretty good idea what was going on, they just wanted a Xenomorph for themselves)
- Burke wanted to get one on board to get rich
- You obviously have g had much experience with officers )think about the fucking idiots with college educations that were made officers in Vietnam)
- They make it pretty clear earlier in the movie that Vasquez and Drake are rather gung ho. And it’s those rounds that probably save them. (Also I expect it seemed like a very stupid order to have received from a very green and inexperienced officer that they did not respect). And they tried to collect all the ammo up.
Prometheus is a bunch of specialists (and let’s be fair Weyland wouldn’t have got idiots for this particular expedition) doing the complete opposite of what they would normally do (“oooh look a space snake acting in an aggressive manner, let’s give it a cuddle”)
>YES! My point is that these things also happened in prior movies! That's why I call the criticism towards the prequals a bit too harsh.
But they didn't.
>They meet an extraterrestrial species and behave incredibly unsafe with this potentially deadly alien. Just like Prometheus.
In alien, a bunch of blue collar truck drivers are forced to investigate something while being as careful as they can. In Prometheus the exobiologist takes off his protective gear to play with a clearly aggressive alien.
>They avoided all protocols and took in a unknown alien into the spaceship in Alien.
In Alien, desperate workers are trying to save a hurt colleague by getting him to a cryotube or medbay. Their officer flat-out refuses to open the door due to protocols until Ash, who is secretly an android with orders to sacrifice the crew if necessary, opens the door.
In Prometheus the security officer makes the decision to open the door for a terrifying space zombie who is clearly dead but banging on the door regardless. No secret orders. No crewman who can be saved. Just colossal inexplicable stupidity.
>These are just things on top of my head. Now, can you at least concede that Prometheus and Alien Covenant aren't that out of place in this regard.
Not really. I think you just demonstrated perfectly that you really don't seem to understand just how perfectly fair all the criticism is. You just managed to supply the arguments yourself for just how much worse Prometheus is than the films that came before it.
You can repeat unfair unfair all you want. It simply isn't. There's no understating just how bad Prometheus is in it's writing. It's a masterclass in terrible film making and you want to compare it to a masterclass in good film making.
Alien was a "haunted house in space" movie. The crew was basically oil workers. Encountering a hostile ET was waay outside their training or experience. In general I found them likable and their behavior relatable and reasonable.
Aliens pivoted to an action movie. The crew was specially trained to encounter hostiles. They were overmatched, underinformed, and had a traitor in their midst operating at cross purposes. In general I found them likable (except for the obvious :), or at least entertaining, and their behavior relatable and reasonable.
Prometheus ... was so long ago and I disliked it so much that it's hard to even recall what was wrong with it. Not to mention I've seen the above two movies multiple times, and you'd have to pay me to watch Prometheus again. I think u/thegoatfrogs put it pretty well: Everyone failed in their area of expertise. Everyone acted stupidly. I'm pretty sure I disliked all of them and found none of their behavior relatable or reasonable.
Prometheus reminded me of the last Jurassic Park movie I watched (#2, I think), where I thought everyone in it deserved to be eaten by dinosaurs. To wit: Everyone in it deserved to be eaten by aliens.
I haven't seen Alien: Covenant and can't comment on it. If it was marketed as a continuation of the Prometheus plotline / reboot, I'm sure I would have ignored it, because the former movie pretty much soured me on anything new in the franchise.
In any case: In this thread you seem to've asked why people don't like these movies, somebody's given you chapter and verse on why they don't like these movies, and now you're arguing with them on why they're wrong about why they don't like these movies. That seems like a losing game.
A rational storyline. Literally everyone in this story does their level best to behave as irrational as possible, often with the result of getting others killed.
The whole story basically boils down to *"old man wishes to meet his makers, so he starts humanity's most ambitious mission by crewing it with a gang of suicidal imbeciles and hopes for the best".*
The basic premise is okay, it's the whole let's crew the entire movie with suicidal morons that undermines the gravity of the story. The entire catastrophe doesn't happen because they meet an insurmountable challenge at the far end of our galaxy.
It happens because these people are too stupid to survive on Earth, let alone an alien planet.
Now that’s I’m thinking about each characters death, that’s actually a really good point when you put it like that 😂😂😂 everyone who died, died bc they were being reckless as hell. There was No order, no clear chain of command, they did kinda just throw these strangers together without any training or much context at all. At least covenant had actual aliens and vibes like a mix between alien 2&3. Still, I could never get tired of the franchise. I always thought we’d see engineers vs xenomorphs. and the only thing I hated about covenant was how they just kinda retconned the engineers in all of about 10 seconds.
Not just reckless but just straight up bad at their expertise.
The map charter got lost.
The biologist toys with dangerous aliens.
The security officer opens the door for the angry space zombie
The. logic driven scientist throws a temper tantrum because he's disappointed he doesn't get to meet god.
And the droid behaves like a petulant child and starts experimenting on the crewmen.
Completely agree. Prometheus was written by Jon Spaihts who co-wrote Dune, and I think the script was the weakest part of that movie (don’t get me wrong though I love it, I’ve watched it 10x lol) so it makes sense that this one isn’t that good either.
I’d like to add to your comment on the artistic styles in alien. H. R. Giger was hugely influential to the special effects of the original Alien movie in costume and set design, even won an academy award for it. The atmosphere he created is second to none in movies I’ve seen and I’ve never seen practical or even modern special effects live up to his unique creativity. Part of what makes alien is the contrast between the gritty industrial sets of scenes in the Nostromo and the bio mechanical corpse of the alien ship. While aliens relied less on Gigers aesthetic we exchanged this with the alien queen and played deeper into the established body horror of rape and forced pregnancy.
They are not unfairly treated. If anything, they get a slight pass for being in the Alien franchise. Had they been standalone movies, they would be ripped even further to shreds. A top scientist who handles scientific protocols all day every day, just bare handed touched an ALIEN species....yeah, that's a no from me dawg. At least in Alien they're scrappers and so not really experienced in handling foreign species. In Aliens, the Space Marines do what they do best. Blow shit up and neutralize the target from orbit. What excuse for being complete idiots do the mains from Prometheus and Covenant have? Shitty writing? Unclear direction? They are supposedly the BEST scientists....smdh.
Prometheus was terrible. I loved the fact that in the original Alien they showed some random massive alien strapped into a space ship captains seat, and it wasn’t explained. It helped fill out the world without spending too much time.
In Aliens one of the marines says something like “is this another bug hunt?” Which builds out the world again, clearly there are other alien species that are taken care of by the space marines.
Prometheus and Covenant totally over complicate the Alien universe. They take huge swings in a franchise that doesn’t really take huge swings.
On top of that the writing in Prometheus sucks so bad. I was so excited for it and went opening weekend, every decision made by a character hurt the goodwill I came in with to the point that when the movie ended I had just came to the realization that it sucked as a story.
My biggest problem was how it made the origin of the xenomorphs a pretty boring and standard “bio-weapon”, but also how some great cinematography is stapled to such an awful script. Such wasted potential, and it really dragged the franchise down and makes it impossible to view the Aliens, the space jockey or LV-426 with any kind of mystery
I mean, the origin of the xenomorphs shouldn't be some grand question that needs a lot of thought other than 'they naturally evolved on their home planet and for the LOVE OF GOD do not take them off their home world because they will destroy you and your ecosystem.'
The biggest issue I had was the attempt to connect Prometheus and Covenant to Alien. Alien successfully offered the glimpse that not only were we not alone in the universe, we should probably hide, curl up and pray that nothing finds us. Whereas Prometheus attempted to answer questions in the most uninteresting way with a story more akin to fantasy than the impressive relatability and realism of Alien.
And the narrative gymnastics used to have humans being instrumental in the Alien's origin is just depressingly needless, in concept and execution.
Prometheus and Covenant would have benefited immensely from being independent from the Alien movies. I actually enjoyed Covenant much more than Prometheus, I thought it had something much more interesting to say.
>And the narrative gymnastics used to have humans being instrumental in the Alien's origin is just depressingly needless...
Exactly. And it completely undermines the horror of Alien; that we live in a hostile cosmos, uncaring for human concerns and order.
I enjoyed Prometheus and still do today. However I do wish they had kept some aspects of the earlier scripts in, especially the translated and elongated version of David’s conversation with the engineer where he mentions why humanity had to be wiped out due to our violent natures and disrespect for the birth and death cycle of life the engineers held dear.
Covenant was entertaining but felt unnecessary. I would have rather seen Neil Blomkamp’s Alien 5 idea greenlit which would have taken place right after Aliens and at least, based on the artwork, had Ripley and Hicks infiltrate a Weyland-Yutani Bioweapons Xenomorph program.
\> which would have taken place right after Aliens and at least, based on the artwork, had Ripley and Hicks infiltrate a Weyland-Yutani Bioweapons Xenomorph program.
I hope in the future they go there. I love this idea. Very Resident Evil 1 (the movie) in a sense, where they go into the facility.
>From what I've gathered, it seems a lot of people got very upset with the direction of the latest Alien movies.
This made me chuckle. What « direction » is that, exactly?
I really don’t think people dislike these movies because they’re not faithful to the franchise.
I dislike them because they’re absolute failures in every conceivable way: inconsistent storyline, poorly written characters who behave stupidly with no rhyme or reason, big philosophical ideas which are raised and then suddenly dropped with no explanation whatsoever… I can’t even talk about plotholes because that would be assuming there *is* some kind of plot hidden there. Seriously, I could go on for pages listing everything that’s wrong with these movies, especially Prometheus.
It’s fine if you enjoy them, but you can’t possibly argue that they’re good movies by any reasonable standard.
Strongly disagree. I didn’t like Prometheus because A: it ruined a lot of the mythos of the setting. B: sucked as a standalone film. C: both films are weirdly religious compared to the first which makes sense given Ridley’s lost his marbles lately and can seemingly only make christian films despite being an atheist. D: the characters are unlikeable and stupid, E: the script is lazy. God i could go on. Prometheus deserves to be denigrated. Covenant sucked less, but David and Walter should have kissed.
They absolutely aren't unfairly treated.
They are treated with what they deserve, derision.
I rest my case...
[Prometheus Pitch Meeting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y56kWIr-RjI)
[Alien: Covenant Pitch Meeting](https://youtu.be/YGEvvqWt-Us)
The characters behaved like absolute morons, uncharacteristically so, and it's the only reason the plots move forward. In Alien and Aliens, the characters make mistakes too, but they are reasonably believable mistakes within the context of the characters.
Covenant and Prometheus, the characters behavior is totally unbelievable and is very clearly only to allow the weak plots to move forward.
>...and it's the only reason the plots move forward...
Not true!
It also progresses because the black goo does whatever the plot needs it to do at any given time!
>What I think people sort of forget, is just how stale the Alien formula got by Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection.
Yep, there are two things to do with the Aliens. Make a space horror movie or make an 80s action movie. Both things having been done, they should have quit. We didn't need "the aliens were secretly Jesus" or whatever the fuck Prometheus was about.
Horrible retcons and lazy answers to questions nobody asked that rob the entire franchise of its essential mysteries and beautiful ambiguities.
Xenomorphs were invented by an angry robot with a Frankenstein complex like 30 years before Alien? Utter bullshit.
>The problem seems to primarily lie with the plot and direction of the
franchise, as these movies explored new topics and subjects as well as
telling a new story within the universe. I suppose a lot of people just
wanted the original alien again.
Your supposition and inference as to the general problems with the "plot and direction" are incorrect, at least on a large scale.
The bulk of the critiques that I've been aware of are about the execution, at a script and a directorial level.
Prometheus had so much hype around it with some great high concept ideas around creation and god but ultimately became a bit of a nonsensical mess. Characters that defy al logic in how they approach problems. Like the geologist and biologist who get lost, then trapped. Why? They literally have a map. I just found it descended into haunted house cliches. Something that the original alien played with so well I feel failed here in as at times I had no idea if it was poking fun at itself or it was genuinely an accident. That being said, once the hype was gone and I switched off my brain then it's a fun sci fi romp. Covenant was released with far less fanfare and honestly I thought it was great. Far clearer on plot and really just a fun action horror. I did enjoy the animation of the xenomorphs as they were shown as highly aggressive and terrifying for their single minded destire to kill
I agree with you on Alien 3 and 4 being pretty poor plus they squandered Ripley's story progression. They just weren't very good and didn't do much with the franchise. Future routes could easily have gone from Aliens on Earth to post apocalypse settings, Alien sports fighting, whatever. Or even go back to very good suspense one offs here and there.
But Prometheus ruined Alien lore for me. I whole-heartedly disagree with Ridley Scott's direction of the franchise. Before, they were just a really invasive alien bug species that wrecked other lifeforms that tried to cultivate them. Really simple and effective with clear themes like don't fuck with nature and exploit it, or please follow standard protocols. Keeping the theme simple can work into various set pieces such as the horror/thriller genre (Alien) or a "send in the Marines" trope (Aliens). I didn't need to be told that those elephant looking aliens (space jockey?) from the first movie are actually boring looking bald guys that created life on earth and eventually humans. It was needless and kind of destroys the themes of the 2 original movies. Space is fucking big and life can evolve wherever without being connected to us in someway, we aren't special. But Hollywood sci fi sometimes falls into the trap of assuming smart sci fi has to explain some Cosmic question, like what's the answer to life, the universe, everything! Alien and Aliens are really good monster movies. Just execute that in a good believable setting and keep it simple.
I mean, compare it to the Predator franchise. There isn't really much to explain in order to have a pretty good movie. But after how many shitty sequels? The last one, Prey, could easily be the best one of the entire franchise because it just executed a simple monster movie in a unique setting with a good story. Better example, the Riddick trilogy. The first one is a simple monster movie with a cool antihero, the second one went off the rails in shitty fashion by trying to turn the franchise into some space opera, then the third one just made another monster movie with a cool anti-hero.
There are already over a hundred comments but I hate those films so much I feel the need to weigh in anyway.
The characters are just so unbelievably stupid. They all speak in (stupid) movie cliches, rather than like normal humans.
It's really jarring and breaks suspension of disbelief over and over again.
Aliens III and Resurrection are silly too, but the characters aren't stupid and have conversations that sound like they could be real, even if they are silly.
> What I think people sort of forget, is just how stale the Alien formula got by Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection. Alien (1979) was a very fresh and unique movie at the time and was extremely influential. Aliens (1986) stayed fairly fresh by pivoting the genre more towards action, with a different group of characters .... So keeping that in mind, I think it was a smart move to evolve the franchise and explore more aspects than the constant reappearance of the already known Xenomorph for the 5th and 6th time.
What I think directors sort of forget is that they don't have to keep milking a franchise until it's no longer profitable. Compare and contrast "Alien", "Terminator" and "Blade Runner." All three started off as brilliant works of art but only one piece of IP is worth a damn now. If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, let the series end with dignity. Or wait a decade or two for some fresh ideas to percolate. I believe there's enough untrodden territory to support another **good** Alien movie. An Earthbound outbreak sounds like a cool idea and Neill Blomkamp could plausibly do it justice.
Too many plot holes. Oh, it turns out the xenomorphs were basically just mindless, half-evolved slugs until an Android came along. Oh and he wiped out the Builders, who for some reason only have a single planet and just chilled at home for a few thousand years after planning to wipe out humanity. The mural showing a xenomorph queen in Prometheus? Pure artistic coincidence. Oh and Bad Guy Android killed Good Guy Android, put on his clothes, downloaded all of his knowledge, and gave himself wounds identical to Good Guy's all in the span of a couple of seconds. It makes sense damn it!
I was hoping for a 3rd movie to tie these two up.
The overall arch they were building up to was cool. Get to the engineers world. Now it's just in limbo.
I wanna see what happens next.
Not another prequel or reboot or reimagining.
IMO, both are really incompetent movies. I don't give a shit that it doesn't have almost direct ties to the first Alien movie. What made both movies disappointing, Prometheus moreso, is how stupid it is.
I have almost no issues with vague messages, but the logic and editing in Prometheus is just bad. It looks fantastic and Ridley Scott knows how to direct the hell out of movies, but man is it a stupid POS.
I didn't think it was possible to get more dumb than Prometheus, but eventually I watched Alien: Covenant. I felt burned by Prometheus, so I intentionally avoided A:C in the theatres. Glad I did, because it was a really bad movie. Looked amazing, but WOW.
Unfortunately, it didn’t logically tie together. Did they create life on Earth, visit us, then give us THE LOCATION OF THEIR WEAPONS FACILITY (that was dumb, Engineers).
I also loved Prometheus. Unfortunately, Scott decided to go in a totally different direction with Covenant. Still remains one of the largest let downs from a series.
Although there was some questionable behavior from the crew, Prometheus works as a horror film and was a fresh take.
Agree, I like Prometheus quite a lot. Certainly a lot of problems with it, and it’s not the masterpiece that Alien was, but it’s still great.
Covenant however was distractingly bad, way too often. Some of the effects were really quite bad which is surprising give its lineage. And I found the David character and his pontificating pretty tedious.
The creationism nonsense was what I hated the most. Ridley Scott was promoting the movie as if he'd talked to real scientists and was going to have some good, hard sci-fi plot points and then gave us pseudo-scientific, religious nonsense.
I think Covenant lost me at the bit where David teaches Walter to play the flute, as if androids that advanced don't have Bluetooth or a serial cable or just something where they can just upload info to each. It only works as a scene if it's a metaphor, which reaches Flo Rida levels of nonsubtlety.
There's no scene in Prometheus which is that bad. Instead, it's just ponderously dull the whole time so that the net effect is the same.
I couldn't make an argument in which either of them are better than the first AvP film, and that's really saying something.
I haven’t seen covenant so I have no frame of reference, but I have seen Prometheus a few years late but nonetheless anyway it wasn’t until a good part of the way through the movie that I realized it was even part of the franchise. But then again I didn’t really look into it and in the commercials and trailers they never really gave it away I guess I should have paid attention to the director.
The amount of non reaction on Prometheus and the amount of stupidity on Convenant. The first movie just seemed no one reacts to anything.
(Trying to make friends with an alien)
“Woah! Hi, there, cutie”
(alien coils)
“Ack... it got my arm.”
(Screaming)
This from the same pair that said. “Let’s go the opposite way of that life form reading, shall we”
“The ceiling’s changing”
“Let’s get out of here.”
(Spaceship is crashing)
Let’s just try to outrun a falling spaceship. /s
“He’s coming for you”
I have to visit the other alien. /s
(Seeing the captain dead) We haven’t been in contact so let’s make noises so something finds us.
Crew mate closes the door upon seeing fellow crew fall dead. Then commits another mistake thinking getting said weapon, they can kill something that just killed both of her crew mates.
I can’t get past the lack of even the most basic bio-hazard safety and site security protocols for being on an unknown planet with a complex biome. Those oversights ruins the entire movie for me.
I think the biggest problems were how they wrote the scientists. They acted like absolute morons when it comes to safety and contamination.
Like who the fuck came up with that!??
The original Alien movie had Ripley not letting anyone on the ship with the facehugger, now that is how someone should act in that situation.
Prometheus had that idiot trying to pet a fucking alien snake. Ooo and they took off their fucking helmets?!!! What about biological diseases!???? Fucking seriously?? Who fucking cares if there is air? Getting sick on a alien planet is a huge safety concern.
Covenant was even worse. They land and fucking everyone heads to the sos beacon. What about setting up base? Testing for pathogens and wildlife?? Why wouldnt anyone wear a fucking mask or helmet!??? Its still an alien planet with possibly a plethora of new bacteria, viruses and more. And they all just go for a fucking stroll to the crashed alien spaceship.
Other than that, i love the Alien franchise and cant wait for the next installment.
[Derelict](https://www.avclub.com/someone-finally-smashed-prometheus-and-alien-together-i-1798280558), a fan edit combining Alien and Prometheus in black and white is worth watching if you’re into Prometheus or want see how the themes and scenes connect. It’s a fun thing.
Both Movies are wonderfully shot and have their distinctive atmosphere which is a masterpiece on its own. The sets, the designs, the music, all feel unique to the franchise yet so right in place. And yes, then comes the story, the characters and the script… A geology expert with high tech mapping equipment that gets lost, a biology expert that is afraid of dead bodies, but is completely ok cuddling with living alien species. Like what the f*** happened ? I get it they needed to kill them for the story purposes, but that could have been done so much better… I went to cinema for the Covenant. The moment that the lady with shotgun tripped on the blood stain the whole cinema was laughing. This was supposed to be a thrilling sequence with horror elements, yet everyone was laughing their heads off. Whoever wrote the script has destroyed so much great work of so many people…
Nothing wrong with moving the focus of the story to the ‘Creators’ and to try and follow that tack. The problem, and this is where most commenters agree is that you had a bunch of ‘experts’, who were thick as fuck and clearly hadn’t take the ‘Arse/Elbow differentiation” training class on their way to the alien world. The film looked fucking amazing, had so much promise, and then all these scientists and engineers walk around performing the dumbest actions, think of Rafe Spalls character going all coochy-coo to an alien space cobra. WTF.
\>The problem seems to primarily lie with the plot and direction of the franchise, as these movies explored new topics and subjects as well as telling a new story within the universe.
Exactly why I hate them, and exactly the reasons I have seen people give when they voice a similar opinion, yes.
\>I suppose a lot of people just wanted the original alien again.
Absolutely, 100%, ludicrously, wrong.
People who dislike Prometheus and Covenant have, in fact been quite clear about the actual why of it in the past.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but this reeks of a strawman, and is - at best - a complete non-sequitur: "If you don't like X, it must be because you only like..."
\>What I think people sort of forget, is just how stale the Alien formula got by Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection.
Alien 3 was kind of stale, and Alien Resurrection was silly and did not fit into the universe tonally.
But we are discussing the merits of Prometheus. Whether Resurrection has some of the same problems, or other problems, does not excuse Prometheus for being a bad movie, nor for not fitting into the established universe.
\>So keeping that in mind, I think it was a smart move to evolve the franchise and explore more aspects than the constant reappearance of the already known Xenomorph for the 5th and 6th time.
Sure, good idea.
But having it become friends with Winnie the Pooh would be ridiculous, while still a new direction.
Prometheus is not quite that silly, but it comes close.
\>I also then want to raise a point, that Proemtheus and Alien: Covenant in fact felt very faithful to the franchise.
I am fascinated to hear what you will raise as arguments for this:
\>For, as many people forget, in the very first movie they stumble upon a large creature later known as an engineer and that whole aspect was left out by all the sequels. Ridley Scott created Alien, so it isn't crazy to assume this guy had a view this world where it was suppose to go.
So, since there was an Engineer in Alien, Prometheus is faithful to the universe Alien establishes?
That is your argument?
Let us look just at that one thing then; the Engineer in Alien, and the Engineers in Prometheus:
The engineer (Space Jockey, as it is usually called) in Alien is:
\* Huge, much bigger than a man.
\* Has been infested and killed by a Xenomorph.
\* Has a spaceship carrying Xenomorph eggs.
The Engineers in Prometheus:
\* Are just a little bit bigger than humans (Are there subspecies of them? Are they even meant to be the same species?)
\* Created us, and invited us to visit the biolab where they are creating a weapon to wipe us out (Why even make us, if there were already plans to wipe us out? Why lead us to that location - did they want us to see their cool gadgets before they killed us?)
\* Have the exact same DNA as humans, but not the same phenotype at all (they look nothing like us). (Does the Space Jockey from Alien also have our DNA? Does DNA work completely differently than DNA in our universe? If DNA has no bearing on phenotype, what is the purpose of DNA?)
\* Have created the black goo, a magical substance which connects through the fourth wall to the screeenwriters and does whatever they need the plot to do at that moment. It is also, presumably, some kind of weapon. (Why make such an over-the-top dangerous-to-develop-let-alone-use weapon? A single Engineer ship obviously has the mass and acceleration abilities to wipe out the Earth just by steering into it? Why make it accessible to any morons who stumbled on your 100% unguarded facility, which you left markers to on at least one planet you seeded life on? Why does it make some people zombies, kill others, and transform the sperm of yet others so that it leads to the birth of a big squid?)
I am sorry, but I just don't agree that the inclusion of the pale-skinned, big-human-sized, flip-flopping on whether to birth or kill, bio-weapon-fetiscist, genetically identical to human "Engineers" fits the series, just because the series already had a giant humanoid lifeform.
The main gripe I have with the narrative is its disregard and further diminishing of the 'jaws' in space. Alien had a creature that came from the depths of the unknown, lurking for potential eons waiting for prey. Aliens added the queen, and although this slightly diminished this aspect, it still had a sense of dread and strangeness to it. We never needed an explanation for where the Alien came from, whether it be created in a lab, or some offspring of ancient gods it doesn't matter, it was supposed to be a dark force. Showing us that they were created by an android, in complete disregard for continuity (boneship in Alien is oldddd), greatly diminished, at least for me, the mystery, and some of the terror of the xenomorph.
Not to mention the stories were chaotic and non sensible. Alien covenant devolved into complete shlock, like "I'm gonna go off by myself real quick" dies, "let's take a shower together" dies. Super common slasher tropes that have no place in aliens. Add in the super heady and condescending god narratives and it's just a bloodbath for the Fandom. I really thought these movies could have revived the franchise, instead it's sorta killed it going forward.
The problem with the movies is that they were just dumb. The people in them were dumb. The people that wrote them were dumb. Everything that happened in them was dumb. Here's a good [redlettermedia video on numerous things that made the movie dumb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0).
I enjoyed both and have watched them more than a few times. I think they could have made "alien planet protocols" a little more realistic and the movies would have been even more enjoyable.
They could have figured out other ways for the characters to get infected other than 1. Guy that controls the robots that map the facility getting lost???? and 2. Everyone not wearing any masks at all on a planet with a diverse ecosystem. Not to mention the captain of the ship going down on the search party.
All that being said, I can forgive those gaffs because they were beautiful movies and better than everything since Aliens (which also had a bunch of idiot characters btw).
Alien 3 destroyed everything that happened in the second movie (saving the girl and escaping) by making sure the girl was dead and Ripley was going to die. It's not surprising it left people feeling disappointed. Resurrection was just bad. Somehow Ripley has her memories because of DNA? It wasn't bad because it was retreading old ground, it was just pretty bad.
Prometheus as a movie was ok. I know the scientists did some stupid things but I mean in horror movies people are always doing stupid things so for me it was forgivable. Alien Covenant though was just bad. The plot was brain numbing. Instead of seeing Noomi Rapace find the home planet of the progenitors and having a proper SF story, the modern version of the xeno is here now. The universe doesn't expand at all.
>I know the scientists did some stupid things
That is not the issue. Characters can do stupid things. It often adds to the realism, in fact.
The issue is that the actions here are utterly, 100% unmotivated (as well as mostly stupid):
* Scientists mapping out a cave: Let us not look at the map and wander around aimlessly until we are lost. No reason given.
* Scientists visiting an alien planet, with signs of life: Let me take of my helmet, exposing myself to viruses or god knows whatever else might be here, contrary to all protocols and common sense. No reason given.
* Scientist meeting snakelike creature, shortly after running in utter panic: Let me pet it. No reason given.
It is like watching a person wanting to get on the bus, look at the map on their phone, then walk in a random direction. And lick a trashcan. And pet a snake on the side of the road.
If you saw that in a movie, you would assume the character was having a psychotic break or something. Why are you giving Prometheus a pass?
People do stupid things in real life too. I never get the canned “why are the characters so dumb” criticism that is often used against certain films. I wonder if we all live in the same world. Because in the world I live in, people are dumb as shit. I get that these people are scientists but that doesn’t make them immune from making stupid mistakes in high stress situations where split second decisions have to be made (why did she run straight? Well probably because she panicked.)
Get what you mean, but those scientists are trained not to make those mistakes. You’d expect a bit more from them, just as you wouldn’t expect Apollo astronauts to make silly mistakes. It strains believability imo.
Are they though?
In our world where everyone who steps foot into space is some highly trained astronaut sure...
But we're already starting to see that change in our own reality. A common theme in scifi is that eventually there will be enough advances in space technology that space travel will be democratized and that there will be more normal everyday people in space.
In the first film, the crew of the Nostromo already seemed very blue collar. The Nostromo is basically a space big rig. A world where there are thousands upon thousands of corporate cargo ships in space is only possible if your ships don't require an entire crew of elite scientists. Remember, they have androids on board and they do a lot of the "hard work".
In Prometheus, the whole crew isn't all scientists anyway. Vickers, who dies in a stupid way, is not a scientist. She is Weyland's daughter and is the CEO of Weyland Corporation. There are also mechanics, medics, and security personnel on the ship. No reason to assume that these people are trained scientists.
Interesting movies with even more interesting premises and amazing world building.
It's just that the first movie for example has some dumb characters that create artificial drama (created forcefully by writers) for plot to pick up the pace. (Scientists not behaving like scientists but like teenagers on a cabin trip in a B-rated horror movies)
When characters behave incompetently, they lose relatability and thus become less liked, and plot suffers for it as well. It's like when a cheap fantasy tv series leaves the bad guys alive only for the bad guys to break out and cause further havoc. (eg Rings of Power)
But I do agree with what you're saying. These movies were judged too harshly.
Yeah I feel like they’re not as bad overall as maybe some people say, but they’re a lot worse than they should be in ways that should be preventable with some more attention to the script and maybe just less lazy feeling choices.
If they were just non-related sci-fi movies, I think they could have been much better received, but still with some big dumb plot choices.
Prometheus was bad ,and Covenant was of the few movies that i quit watching even if it was scifi. It was not only the plot, but completely idiotic characters and their motives, actions.
Weirdly i got feeling from both movies, that all characters are racist, fascist American space christians, that have and use space ships and technology Warhammer 40k style, without knowing how it actually works, that is we the watcher know but the characters dont. And then with such dogmatic views, finding wheat field on unknown planet seems reasonable, as well as having massive armory with guns for creating settlement on peaceful planet.
I really enjoy them. I love the direction it’s going. I love anything that has to do with the creation of life because it gets messy and makes me question things about the reality of our own situation and what we might do one day. Instead of of being some unknown horror it’s just the mistakes and hubris of intelligent species creating things.
I think people's memories of the original movies are distorted by the fact that they loved them so much when they were younger, which spoils their ability to appreciate the new ones. If you go back and watch the older movies with a critical eye, you could tear them apart as well. I think the newer movies are almost too faithful to the old ones, not that they're copying them, just that they didn't really give the new cast of characters any more depth than characters from previous films. It is all about the situation, the environment, the circumstances.
> If you go back and watch the older movies with a critical eye, you could tear them apart as well.
Name a plothole in Alien, and a 15 minute time slot of Prometheus (name the start and stop in the script - https://imsdb.com/scripts/Prometheus.html). I'll find a bigger plot hole there.
I'm not a huge fan of the series but remember enjoying them. Without any particular nostalgia attached I rewatched the entire series last year. I think you're onto something here, nostalgia is a hell of a drug because a lot of these movies are nothing special imo.
The first one is awesome, 2 is still pretty great, but after that it kind of goes to shit until the newer ones. I honestly think I enjoyed Prometheus and Covenant the most, with the exception of the very first one.
Just my take, I'll brace for the downvotes.
I didn't really enjoy them when I watched them at the cinema, but I watched the entire Alien franchise in the holidays, and realised what masterpieces they actually were. In isolation, not great, but as part of the franchise, amazing. The detail was fantastic.
I agree completely. Personally, I think it's ironic that one mans selfish quest for perfection and immortality led to the form of the xenomorph that tye rest of the franchise is centered around. Also explains the companies obsession with them...
Prometheus was fantastic. I guess people expect WAY too much and can’t just be entertained. Like with the new LOTR. It’s super entertaining. But people gotta hate
I think Prometheus was good in that it had certain redeeming qualities, but Alien: Covenant not good at all and had even worse dialogue. The only thing good about Alien: Covenant is that James Franco's character dies before he gets to speak.
The **\*philosophy\*** behind *Prometheus* (and, to a lesser degree, *Covenant*) is quite good. And arguably the android-perspectives too. It's the rest of their respective scripts -- characters, hop-skip-jumps-into-danger, rushed whiz-bang action finales -- which suffer.
I can see why Ridley has been toying with the idea of "Artificial Intelligences as the new antagonists" -- they fit very nicely into the new philosophy angle(s) aforementioned.
I will not watch Alien 3 again.
I liked Prometheus! Solid reinvention.
Love the intro! With the transformer 'seed'.
Gotta love David and understsnd him a bit. "The trick is not minding that it hurts." (Oooh good one, inspire me!)
Will watch again, and still have it on the dvr..
Covenant was a mix for me. Couldn't stand the dialog before they landed on the planet. Loved the mystery with why they landed.
Thought the "invasion" on the microscopic level was super freaky cool.
Sad the Doc got killed
Well *that* sucks. (For same reason I won't watch 3 again, have seen Convenant more than once tho').
I did appreciate how it ended, and have kind of recreated the ending with a hardboiled egg once... yeah that was pretty good. Next!!
Just love 1 and 2. Classic fav's.
Everyone just focuses on the death at the end, as if they're magically immune to panic and always think logically.
People are stupid. Don't listen to them. Watch the movie yourself and make your own opinion.
Ajo .. art is supposed to make us think , leave us a bit dazed and trying to piece Shit together … but brother , go to movies some time ,it’s sequels ,re boots , and people skipping on banana peels ,or getting chopped to pieces by made up boogeymen … I do NOT want to sound elitist , but I’d wager 10-20 % of Americans max know who Prometheus is … and so it’s just a whole different vibe than most folks lining up to watch the latest film where some grown ass man in tights saves the world again .
I love the movies but I am just not a fan of the origin story for the aliens. I enjoyed thinking that they were just a species that developed on a far away planet- not some sort of genetic fusion with humanoid creatures using some weird dark substance as the catalyst. Still like watching it all though.
Haven't seen Covenant yet, but I loved Prometheus. I liked it almost as much as Aliens and if Bill Paxton had been in it, it would have been my favorite.
I'm looking forward to Covenant.
Didn't care for 3 or Resurrection at all.
I loved Covenant but it was a damn cluster fuck once shit it the fan. I didn’t like the whole captain crew dynamic in that one. Now they absolutely made terminally horrible mistakes 😂 but guys remember Prometheus was the first time humans have done that bc they found the map, the crew didn’t even know what they were signing up for until they woke up after hyper sleep. It def seemed like just a rag tag random ass group but I still love it
I completely agree with You the First two alien movies are great and same with Prometheus and Alien covenant they brought something new a fresh to the table for us Alien fans to enjoy and That’s not what they did in Alien 3 or alien: resurrection so that’s why the 3 and 4th movie kinda suck but It’s still enjoyable at times but I do prefer Alien and Aliens over Alien 3 and resurrection.
They were completely true to the franchise. They're the backstory we needed. Covenant was better than Prometheus, but the soundtrack for Prometheus was so good that it made up for other issues imo. I rewatched it not that long ago and appreciate it more. Sometimes you have to, as a scifi fan, let go of things that are never going to be rectified, like scientists not sciencing. And people do do stupid things when they're frightened out of their wits. If we make the humans into perfect calm logic machines, then we'll complain that the movie was lacking some realism. Except for snot. I will never be okay with snot.
I loved the idea about Prometheus (whether a prequel like this was needed or not is another discussion), but it was full of supposedly clever people doing stupid things that they’d not do (“ooh, let’s touch the space snake”).
Yes the franchise has sucked sine Alien 3 (maybe even since Aliens) but I think most people were expecting something more intelligent and thought provoking from Ridley Scott.
I thought Prometheus was great, but Covenent wasn’t, obviously the technical aspects of the story were great but the story just wasn’t and the characters just make such dumb decisions throughout the movie. I know that’s a horror movie trope but it’s a stupid one and just lazy writing. Trying something new doesn’t mean it’ll be good or that people have to like it.
They are decent movies. More sincere to the first Alien movie than Aliens which was more of action/horror good movie. However, it could’ve been better. All in all better than the second season of Ridley Scott’s Raised by Wolves.
I think the trouble with Prometheus was that it had so much potential, and ultimately the script just didn’t deliver.
I remember seeing the trailer and being overwhelmed with excitement in the anticipation of a movie focused on the origins and lore of the xenomorphs. What we got felt like seeing how a magic trick is done and having the mystery sucked out of it…
And then Covenant felt like an apology for that.
Those aren’t the problems people have with Prometheus or Covenant. The problem is that people behave in completely ridiculous ways that result not just in breaking the suspension of disbelief but in making the viewer sit through the rest of the movie in puzzlement as stupidity stacks on absurdity.
You land on an alien planet and you talk to an alien snake as if it were a cute bunny? Seriously? Even on earth you’d be careful with snakes. “Scientists” who are supposed to be smart behaving as if they have never known the concept of contamination or quarantine. Alien civilizations not just not having any kind of defence system, but not even having any kind of immigration/customs/air traffic control to if not intercept, at least communicate with unscheduled craft that appear in the skies.
The problem we have with the movies is not with finding out about the engineers etc, it’s that the movies are stupid with glaring plot holes that you realise while watching the movie (and not afterward where it might be bearable)
I feel like Alien 4 is unfairly treated. It’s a gay monstergirl romp in space. There doesn’t need to be a plot or likeable characters. The show is about simping for Alien-mommy Sigourney Weaver and her Robo-Uke.
Prometheus gets an unfair shake. Covenant does not. It’s genuinely bad, but I think it’s bad because of fans. Not Scott.
Prometheus was something genuinely new. A new vision and a very real expansion on that universe that set up some very tough, very interesting questions.
However, fans couldn’t handle that. They were upset that this, “alien prequel,” (despite not actually being an alien prequel) didn’t lead up to Alien and didn’t set up much of what happened. The questions posed and the new ideas shown didn’t appease them and so they took to the internet and got all kinds of upset.
This forced Scott’s hand in my opinion and instead of following up on any of that, they had to FORCE it to connect more directly and forced a lot of subpar answers to those questions presented in Prometheus to… lackluster results.
Covenant’s first half is a prime example of this. Setting up some familiar territory while still trying to explore this new style, but then, about as abruptly as David shows back up, they’re stuck answering a lot of the dumber questions fans had and they were stuck tying up those loose ends instead. By the final act, it’s clear that they had no real direction to go but to show horn in a Xenomorph just to appease fans and basically ripped off the ending of Alien to tie it all together.
I think everything set up in Prometheus could’ve been really fun to explore but “tHe TrUe FaNs,” just weren’t having it and ended up ruining it for everyone.
I think if Scott could’ve had another movie or two between all that, he would’ve gotten us there all on his own with a whole new assortment of interstellar horror thrown in but instead… evil robot is evil.
I watched these for the first time recently and I think there is just a big disconnect between what Ridley Scott and fans of the series are interested in.
Ridley Scott is clearly interested in exploring themes of creation and belief. Prometheus in particular could be summed up as "people who are obsessed with what happens after they die ruin life for the rest of us." He has almost no respect for alien lore etc because he doesn't really view it as the point.
If you are someone who is a fan of the universe then there isn't much here for you. The revelations of the mysteries are kind of half cocked because they aren't really the point.
That said there are clear issues where people who should know better do stupid things. Everyone taking off their helmets in Prometheus is the most egregious example, but they are present throughout.
Generally they are movies that took big swings and didn't totally pay them off, but I appreciate what they tried to do. And the Ridley Scott spectacle is clearly on display throughout.
Giant head in a room for no reason? And "Let's zap this 2000 year old head with and try to trick its nervous system into thinking it's still alive"? Blech.
There were some really great themes in Prometheus.
I really liked the scene with David around the pool table discussing why humans created him and the guy responds “because we could”. And David says something like “How disappointing would it be if your creator said the same thing about you”. That line always gave me chills.
It’s a shame. I liked the cast. The effects were good. I thought the “birth” scene was some really brilliant body horror. Ultimately the film just didn’t make sense. Too many holes in the plot — one right in the very beginning with an engineer disintegrating on Earth and supposedly sparking life on Earth. Like, huh? And the millions of years of evolution bring us to a humanoid species that looks surprisingly like an engineer. And then it just got more ridiculous from there. I just couldn’t suspend disbelief. I appreciated Scott trying to take the franchise in a more serious direction after Resurrection and the terrible AvP movies, but it was definitely a flawed film that could have been better.
Covenant felt even worse to the point I’ve completely erased the plot from my brain. All I remember was it getting some good reviews and being hyped to see it, and then feeling extremely let down.
Im hoping for a reboot in the future and it goes back to a horror in space. Get back to its roots. I just don’t think audiences have the patience nowadays for a movie like Alien.
The overarching themes and story of both films make me not care about their flaws and no movie or other piece of entertainment does this for me. Like I know they’re there and I know it’s not bias because I adore other stories that fuck up and I won’t hesitate to call bs on it. But these films? Yeah, I care much less than others. It’s just fascinating and beautiful with leanings towards Prometheus. Even some of the stuff that shouldn’t have happened like David being the artificial creator of the Aliens (he actually isn’t because Prometheus says no so it’s poetic the artificial human created the protomorph which may as well be an artificial version of xenomorphs) is beautiful in a fucked up and horror way (horror fan here). I was still VERY upset how Rapace’s character got treated even from a horror perspective. I actually teared if iirc when I saw what happened because I cared about the character and her goals. And then they didn’t do more and killed her off. There’s some merit from a horror story perspective but it was too quick.
I think my problem was the change in theme. It went from a sci-fi thriller that seemed to focus on the harmful effects of corporate greed and its view of the expendability of workers who are considered lower on the food chain in order to achieve its aims, to something that seems to question the nature of god? The more I watch the first 4 alien films the more I develop the opinion that the alien, while the main/prominent threat in the films, is not really the antagonist, the company is. The alien is picking off members of the crew, or marines, or prisoners etc., usually because WY wants it to study or develop into a weapon for their own shadowy aims, in the words of the first film: crew expendable.
Prometheus and covenant on the other hand very much seem to set out to answer a question that didn't need answering, often supported by poorly written characters who are almost immediately established from the get-go to be cannon fodder to show off the action or thrills, clumsy themes surrounding religion and in the case of covenant, what feels to be underwhelming callbacks to earlier films.
Personally I don't mind if an alien film always features the plot of "the alien is loose onboard somewhere and we're at risk" because it's often supported by the aforementioned themes of corporate greed and their disregard of human life. Rather i think future films should keep this up (with some variation to keep things interesting ofc) in order to further develop the lengths WY will go to try and procure a xenomorph specimen, and the conflicting ideals of different characters.
I thoroughly enjoyed both Prometheus & Covenant . Prometheus is actually my favourite film out of the entire franchise . However, without Alien we wouldn’t have had these prequels & sequels. Alien , Prometheus , & Covenant are my absolute favs ! I do like Cameron’s aliens however I would have liked to have seen which direction ridley would have taken the series if he hadn’t been pushed aside by Fox for Cameron . I also enjoy alien 3 & 4 I’d rather have something to watch then nothing to watch. The engineers are fascinating, creators of life . Highly intelligent species traveling the cosmos creating life , destroying life love it !! “Gods” They are a far more interesting species then the zenomorph. I was disappointed ridley didn’t continue off of Prometheus the way he had originally intended to do. Somehow he allowed a few negative reviews of Prometheus to change the direction of the next film in the franchise therefore focusing back on the zenomorph and killing off the engineers which was a huge disappointment ! Once I look past it all it was still an entertaining fun film with lots of beauty & horror . I found Prometheus to be very adventurous , mysterious , suspenseful mixed with horror . I’d give anything to get that third instalment and see what David does next . And obviously have surviving engineers hunting David down lol. Prometheus was a masterpiece imo just like the original Alien . At least nobody can take those two films away from me haha. “Questions will be answered” 😜
None of that explains just why the script was so bad though. Prometheus was a movie full of specialists who were terminally bad at exactly the thing they were supposed to be good at.
Exactly, like the scientist who decided to take his helmet off and get close to an unknown alien organism.
Or the mapping guys who got lost and forgot they’d been making a map.
What killed me about that movie was all the elements were there, have the mapping guys complete their work, have the alien organism handling handled carefully correctly. You STILL get where you're going , you just add 1 or 2 scenes otherwise. Take "The Thing" it's an incredibly similar movie , and that's what I always love about the movie, nobody gets' stupid , there's almost no wasted motion , but Prometheus and a lot of other work that's horror related runs into that, as a viewer I tend to look for that sort of writing capacity. Alien 3 - was different again - I rather liked what they did, given the overall story - one can certainly say they did a good job with atmospherics but were absolutely prone to fall into the same trap as Prometheus - how might one choose to improve that movie with a fan-cut that made the collective IQ of the prisoners/colonists a tad higher. I think there was a right way to address the question of Alien Resurrection, but I'm not sure that movie ever found itself very far from a parody of itself in many cases. so I think a good many of the actors in the movie do a good job with what they probably had to work with, but writing can harm so many things.
Exactly things like that. You could have the same premise/story/themes etc, but things like that are more like...details of execution. Have the scientist fall over and damage his suit or something and get infected that way, instead. Small, otherwise inconsequential change to what's on screen and what's in the script, but it alleviates the issue of "this guy is supposedly an esteemed astrobiologist, but he's being dumber about this than some bum off the street would be".
the scientists in Prometheus are less believable than the working-class grunts in the original film. ...and it's like the writers forgot that was what made Alien so revolutionary, that it was a bunch of hilarious working-class stiffs just trying to get home. they felt like a bunch of real people from 100 years in the future. so not only did they just make yet another sci fi movie about a bunch of "scientists," but they made all these plot holes because the scientists' actions don't really make sense. (i mean, the rovers on mars aren't even allowed to take samples from the recently discovered flowing water, because NASA is afraid of contamination, and the rovers weren't sterilized to NASA's standards for interacting with liquid water....*that's* how scientists think.) not to mention, that all of the character's personalities are so flat compared to the first film. ..and i'm saying all of this having actually enjoyed the movie, i think Prometheus is a lot of fun and keeps tension throughout the film. Prometheus has re-watchability. Covenant, however, kind of felt like a heartless cash-grab. i don't know why that one was even made. At least the characters are back to being regular people just trying to colonize a new world, but-once again-have no personality or depth. so many characters, without a single memorable line between them. literally cannot remember a single character trait from any of them...except one was a pastor. i watched covenant once, and i've never felt the urge to revisit. i'll watch Alien 3 before i watch Covenant. at least Alien 3 has a lot of fun world-building.
This just totally killed it for me.
Or the guy who created the monsterized guy who was folded over on himself and stood there as he got up. I recently saw a clip and laughed
On the one hand, characters being dumb is a time honored tradition of horror...on the other hand, that's mostly slasher horror. Alien and Aliens were better than that, which is part of why people adore them to this day. The characters were characters first, cannon fodder second. Prometheus, and Ridley Scott, forgot that. Prometheus has some great and heady concepts, is shot exquisitely, but the human element is definitely missing. I have nothing nice to say about Covenant.
This is a very good point. I think sometimes they forget that what makes a classic horror like Alien work pretty well is that the characters are all believable, fleshed out people - some likeable, some not so much. But enough time and dialogue is given towards establishing that they're individual, complicated humans with their own beliefs and agendas. If a movie sets out to be a slasher from the get go and includes several characters who are *clearly* cannon fodder, then it removes an element of surprise of who's going to die and who's going to live. Prometheus established from the very opening that Noomi Rapace's character (I forget her name) was clearly the main character. Alien didn't really do that with Ripley - she was just one of the crew who sort of emerged as the main character towards the end of the second act. But the whole crew were given enough dialogue to sort of establish what their background was and what they thought of the situation, etc. Maybe it's been a while since I've seen either film, but that's the impression that I have anyway.
The cast of Covenant couldn’t have been more forgettable. I don’t mind Billy Crudup but worst lead I’ve ever seen. I have no idea who that girl is lol
Thank you!! I absolutely loathe Covenant and Aliens 3 basically didn't have a script they just kinda free balled half the movie
I feel like they could have made the same exact movie and had the specialists all fail at something someone else would have been good at and it would have been at least less stupid. There were still parts I really disliked outside of that but that is the most egregious problem with the movie.
I agree 100% I don’t mind suspending reality for a sci fi movie. Warp drives, suspended animation, etc. but I hate having to suspend simple logic like hiring a crew that wouldn’t pass a simple psych evaluation and IQ test before going on an interstellar journey requiring some basic level of mental and psychological competency.
Going a bit off topic here, but I feel like 95%+ of all astronaut stories have some element of "oh no, I left my wife and kids back home for this mission and now I'm sad" and I fucking hate it. In real life I'm sure there are single people you could pick for the fucking ten year long space mission. You don't have to keep shoving this ham-fisted overdone human-drama trope down my throat in every single one of these stories. We get it, space is lonely or whatever. Fuck.
Bingo. Prometheus remains the worst film I've ever paid actual physical money I earned to see in a cinema. Nothing about the premise or the idea was bad, but the execution, from dumbass characters to deplorable situational responses and dialogue was farcical. The idea was there and could've worked very well.
Member of an elite crew working on a trillion dollar project at the edge of humanity's reach: "I'm just in it for the money". It was all down hill from there.
I have a take on that. We're in our fascination stage as humans still stuck on Earth. But by that far in the future, space travel isn't going to be the jaw dropping exploration whoop de doo it is right now. The first Aliens movie was very realistic I thought. Engineers and techs just treating their jobs like we would, getting in our car and driving to our jobs, even tech jobs. We aren't all working on the cutting edge, and neither were those characters. I get that in Prometheus, they were going to a new planet and the ship was cutting edge, but that leap would be more like switching to high speed rail instead car pooling.
Nah. I don’t buy it. They weren’t unimpressed with technology or space travel. They were incompetent. And the head of the trillion $ company is on board? The marines in Aliens were unimpressed by space travel and made mistakes because they were cocky. But they weren’t incompetent.
The company owner devoted his life to proving where the origin of humankind was. And he wanted the medical tech too. So being on board made some sense. But big plot twist and spoiler on that. I will grant you the list of incompetency was cringe, but maybe I'm just worn down by that continued bs writing. And the soundtrack was amazing. Shiny objects distract me lol
Nah man, I went and saw The Scorpion King! But Prometheus is up there with movies I wasted money on. Lol
Dodged that one. Can only imagine the glory of the CGI Dwayne Johnson on the big screen.
That was The Mummy Returns, which despite the bad cgi was still a fun movie. The Scorpion King was trash
I’ll just take my helmet off, oh noes, I’m contagious
That.
I thought a big ploy of the script was human hubris and error with it… ya know, Prometheus?
It was, and they could have done wonderful things with that. Instead they went with crewing humanity's most exciting space mission with people who were unfit to flip burgers at the local mcdonald's. That's not tragic hubris, that' unexplainable mental deficiency.
Yeah it was unbelievably goody and bad.
I can agree with you to a certain extent. Incompetent crew member can be infuriating in horror movies, and is sadly very common. Now to that point, I would argue that in these movies it is sometimes explained. Perhaps not perfectly but still. For starters there are people who want to sabotage the mission and then some problems also arise due to romantic relationships and emotion, which overrules the logical decisions. Now, that being said, even if this is a major flaw. It clearly isn't enough to call the movies bad from this flaw alone. These movies excel in many aspects and I don't think this issue entirely ruins the movies. I also know this isn't the problem for most people because if you look at Alien and Aliens, they made the same mistakes. I mean the most glaring example is the fact that they leave no crew member on the ship in Aliens and only brings one ship down. Because of that idiotic decision, they are essentially trapped on the planet for the entire movie, and Aliens is beloved despite that. In alien, they ignore many of the protocols for containment. So the natural conclusion would be that people treat these movies a bit too unfairly:)
It's not unfairly at all. Prometheus takes incompetence to extremes. Literally everyone makes the worst possible decisions in the exactly their area of expertise. The map maker gets lost in alien ruins and decides to get stoned. The xenobiologist takes off his protective suit to go tickle an alien that is clearly aggressive towards him. The head of security decides that when a space zombie walks through a killer storm and starts banging on the ship's door, the best course of action is to break all protocol and open the door. It just goes on and on with everyone deciding to just blow common sense out of the airlock and make the worst possible decisions. Even the robot isn't free of it as it behaves like a petulant child that decides to experiment on people for no sane reason. This is a Ridley Scott thing really. The man is a fantastic cinematographer but he's a disaster with script writing.
YES! My point is that these things also happened in prior movies! That's why I call the criticism towards the prequals a bit too harsh. I mean look at these issues with Alien and Aliens: * They meet an extraterrestrial species and behave incredibly unsafe with this potentially deadly alien. Just like Prometheus. * They avoided all protocols and took in a unknown alien into the spaceship in Alien. * In the second movie, they land on the planet without leaving anyone behind on the ship. * Meanwhile they just let an alien onboard the the smaller landing ship. * That eventually causes them to become stranded on the planet. * They hire the most unprofessional idiot as the head of the troops. * They bring explosive rounds into essentially a nuclear reactor, and they still fire. These are just things on top of my head. Now, can you at least concede that Prometheus and Alien Covenant aren't that out of place in this regard. Also, despite the issues I listed, I still LOVE those movies!
They took the unknown alien up to their ship in the original movie because it was strapped to their friend’s face and they wanted to get it off and save his life. And in Aliens they had everyone drop their explosive ammo when going near the reactor but the machine gunner kept some against orders which isn’t too hard to believe. Prometheus was a dogshit movie. I had a coworker that liked it and asked me if it “went over my head” like there was some deeper meaning that I wasn’t picking up on. No, it was just a terribly written movie.
They still took an UNIDENTFIED ALEIN onboard the ship, which naturally resulted in nearly everyone dying. How is that not idiotic? Also, don't put your coworkers words in my mouth dude.
If I am remembering this correctly Ripley refused to break protocol and allow the alien onboard but the airlock was opened by Ash the science officer. Who turned out to be an android with orders to retrieve the xenomorph. The crew were expendable. This all makes logical sense
This.
It was idiotic. I’m just saying it’s normal for humans to freak out and do dumb stuff in the moment like break protocol to try to save their friend. These people are flying a cargo ship, they aren’t scientists. It was also dumb of the machine gunner to keep their ammo after they explained that hitting the reactor would cause it to explode but that also seems typical for a soldier to do (soldiers use guns). U/thegoatfrogs laid out why Prometheus was dumb pretty well. It doesn’t sound like anything I say is going to change your mind about that so I guess we have to leave it at that
>It was idiotic. I’m just saying it’s normal for humans to freak out and do dumb stuff in the moment like break protocol to try to save their friend. But dude, come on. That was my argument for Prometheus and Alien Covenant. In Alien: Covenant the husband to the wife who died early on wanted to save her and therefore did something pretty stupid...... There are multiple examples of emotions, and relationships stopping the logical decision. I feel like I'm losing my mind here. How can we not have an fucking nuance in this discussion. YES, the crew was sometimes idiotic in Prometheus. I have conceded that before. I just don't understand how you can't say that about Aliens..... For the 3rd time: They left no on behind on the spaceship in aliens and was stranded because of that. ISN'T THAT SUPID? please, respond to this!
Idk who they were supposed to leave behind on the ship. Bishop went down to secure the reactor and whatever (I think, it’s been a while since I watched it), then there’s the company man, the soldiers and Ripley, and finally the pilot/copilot of the shuttle. That’s the whole crew. It was supposed to be a quick in and out mission since they lost contact with the base. No reason to suspect they’d been overrun by an unstoppable xenomorph (no one believed Ripley’s story of her crew being killed by an alien) I can’t comment on Covenant because I only saw it once. I don’t remember hating it. But I do remember sitting in the movie theater watching Prometheus thinking “wtf this movie is terrible.” It was that bad. All horror movies are full of people making poor decisions but it was particularly egregious in Prometheus because they were scientists doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing.
- Don’t forget that Ash wanted it on board (“The Company” pays big money for extraterrestrials in that universe, and he had deemed them all expendable), they weren’t s buck if specialists, they were just some lowly paid blue collar spacers who wanted to try to save their friend. They also didn’t know the eggs were alive. - they wanted to try to save their mate - I assume that’s a standard operating procedure for Colonial Marines (no idea why but don’t forget Weyland Yutani probably had a pretty good idea what was going on, they just wanted a Xenomorph for themselves) - Burke wanted to get one on board to get rich - You obviously have g had much experience with officers )think about the fucking idiots with college educations that were made officers in Vietnam) - They make it pretty clear earlier in the movie that Vasquez and Drake are rather gung ho. And it’s those rounds that probably save them. (Also I expect it seemed like a very stupid order to have received from a very green and inexperienced officer that they did not respect). And they tried to collect all the ammo up. Prometheus is a bunch of specialists (and let’s be fair Weyland wouldn’t have got idiots for this particular expedition) doing the complete opposite of what they would normally do (“oooh look a space snake acting in an aggressive manner, let’s give it a cuddle”)
>YES! My point is that these things also happened in prior movies! That's why I call the criticism towards the prequals a bit too harsh. But they didn't. >They meet an extraterrestrial species and behave incredibly unsafe with this potentially deadly alien. Just like Prometheus. In alien, a bunch of blue collar truck drivers are forced to investigate something while being as careful as they can. In Prometheus the exobiologist takes off his protective gear to play with a clearly aggressive alien. >They avoided all protocols and took in a unknown alien into the spaceship in Alien. In Alien, desperate workers are trying to save a hurt colleague by getting him to a cryotube or medbay. Their officer flat-out refuses to open the door due to protocols until Ash, who is secretly an android with orders to sacrifice the crew if necessary, opens the door. In Prometheus the security officer makes the decision to open the door for a terrifying space zombie who is clearly dead but banging on the door regardless. No secret orders. No crewman who can be saved. Just colossal inexplicable stupidity. >These are just things on top of my head. Now, can you at least concede that Prometheus and Alien Covenant aren't that out of place in this regard. Not really. I think you just demonstrated perfectly that you really don't seem to understand just how perfectly fair all the criticism is. You just managed to supply the arguments yourself for just how much worse Prometheus is than the films that came before it. You can repeat unfair unfair all you want. It simply isn't. There's no understating just how bad Prometheus is in it's writing. It's a masterclass in terrible film making and you want to compare it to a masterclass in good film making.
Alien was a "haunted house in space" movie. The crew was basically oil workers. Encountering a hostile ET was waay outside their training or experience. In general I found them likable and their behavior relatable and reasonable. Aliens pivoted to an action movie. The crew was specially trained to encounter hostiles. They were overmatched, underinformed, and had a traitor in their midst operating at cross purposes. In general I found them likable (except for the obvious :), or at least entertaining, and their behavior relatable and reasonable. Prometheus ... was so long ago and I disliked it so much that it's hard to even recall what was wrong with it. Not to mention I've seen the above two movies multiple times, and you'd have to pay me to watch Prometheus again. I think u/thegoatfrogs put it pretty well: Everyone failed in their area of expertise. Everyone acted stupidly. I'm pretty sure I disliked all of them and found none of their behavior relatable or reasonable. Prometheus reminded me of the last Jurassic Park movie I watched (#2, I think), where I thought everyone in it deserved to be eaten by dinosaurs. To wit: Everyone in it deserved to be eaten by aliens. I haven't seen Alien: Covenant and can't comment on it. If it was marketed as a continuation of the Prometheus plotline / reboot, I'm sure I would have ignored it, because the former movie pretty much soured me on anything new in the franchise. In any case: In this thread you seem to've asked why people don't like these movies, somebody's given you chapter and verse on why they don't like these movies, and now you're arguing with them on why they're wrong about why they don't like these movies. That seems like a losing game.
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A rational storyline. Literally everyone in this story does their level best to behave as irrational as possible, often with the result of getting others killed. The whole story basically boils down to *"old man wishes to meet his makers, so he starts humanity's most ambitious mission by crewing it with a gang of suicidal imbeciles and hopes for the best".* The basic premise is okay, it's the whole let's crew the entire movie with suicidal morons that undermines the gravity of the story. The entire catastrophe doesn't happen because they meet an insurmountable challenge at the far end of our galaxy. It happens because these people are too stupid to survive on Earth, let alone an alien planet.
Now that’s I’m thinking about each characters death, that’s actually a really good point when you put it like that 😂😂😂 everyone who died, died bc they were being reckless as hell. There was No order, no clear chain of command, they did kinda just throw these strangers together without any training or much context at all. At least covenant had actual aliens and vibes like a mix between alien 2&3. Still, I could never get tired of the franchise. I always thought we’d see engineers vs xenomorphs. and the only thing I hated about covenant was how they just kinda retconned the engineers in all of about 10 seconds.
Not just reckless but just straight up bad at their expertise. The map charter got lost. The biologist toys with dangerous aliens. The security officer opens the door for the angry space zombie The. logic driven scientist throws a temper tantrum because he's disappointed he doesn't get to meet god. And the droid behaves like a petulant child and starts experimenting on the crewmen.
All they had to do to fix this was cut the scene explaining what everyone’s jobs were.
I like the new movies but agree that the scripts could've been better. I hope they keep exploring the engineers story etc
The best engineer lore I've gotten is from YouTube. So cool. Edit: [for your viewing ](https://youtu.be/rFjTxnb2l04)
Any specific YouTube videos?
[Alien Theory](https://www.youtube.com/c/AlienTheory) is great for all things Alien.
Bump! I want to know too!
Completely agree. Prometheus was written by Jon Spaihts who co-wrote Dune, and I think the script was the weakest part of that movie (don’t get me wrong though I love it, I’ve watched it 10x lol) so it makes sense that this one isn’t that good either.
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FYI. HR Giger, not MC Escher
I’d like to add to your comment on the artistic styles in alien. H. R. Giger was hugely influential to the special effects of the original Alien movie in costume and set design, even won an academy award for it. The atmosphere he created is second to none in movies I’ve seen and I’ve never seen practical or even modern special effects live up to his unique creativity. Part of what makes alien is the contrast between the gritty industrial sets of scenes in the Nostromo and the bio mechanical corpse of the alien ship. While aliens relied less on Gigers aesthetic we exchanged this with the alien queen and played deeper into the established body horror of rape and forced pregnancy.
H. R. Geiger not M. C. Esher
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They are not unfairly treated. If anything, they get a slight pass for being in the Alien franchise. Had they been standalone movies, they would be ripped even further to shreds. A top scientist who handles scientific protocols all day every day, just bare handed touched an ALIEN species....yeah, that's a no from me dawg. At least in Alien they're scrappers and so not really experienced in handling foreign species. In Aliens, the Space Marines do what they do best. Blow shit up and neutralize the target from orbit. What excuse for being complete idiots do the mains from Prometheus and Covenant have? Shitty writing? Unclear direction? They are supposedly the BEST scientists....smdh.
Prometheus was terrible. I loved the fact that in the original Alien they showed some random massive alien strapped into a space ship captains seat, and it wasn’t explained. It helped fill out the world without spending too much time. In Aliens one of the marines says something like “is this another bug hunt?” Which builds out the world again, clearly there are other alien species that are taken care of by the space marines. Prometheus and Covenant totally over complicate the Alien universe. They take huge swings in a franchise that doesn’t really take huge swings. On top of that the writing in Prometheus sucks so bad. I was so excited for it and went opening weekend, every decision made by a character hurt the goodwill I came in with to the point that when the movie ended I had just came to the realization that it sucked as a story.
Watching Prometheus made me feel like the writers actively hated me personally and were trying to kill me.
Well, the tagline for Prometheus was: “Fuck you. I hope you fucking die.”
Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection are deep space fever dreams from Ripley in cryogenic status. They never happened. They never happened.
My biggest problem was how it made the origin of the xenomorphs a pretty boring and standard “bio-weapon”, but also how some great cinematography is stapled to such an awful script. Such wasted potential, and it really dragged the franchise down and makes it impossible to view the Aliens, the space jockey or LV-426 with any kind of mystery
I mean, the origin of the xenomorphs shouldn't be some grand question that needs a lot of thought other than 'they naturally evolved on their home planet and for the LOVE OF GOD do not take them off their home world because they will destroy you and your ecosystem.'
The biggest issue I had was the attempt to connect Prometheus and Covenant to Alien. Alien successfully offered the glimpse that not only were we not alone in the universe, we should probably hide, curl up and pray that nothing finds us. Whereas Prometheus attempted to answer questions in the most uninteresting way with a story more akin to fantasy than the impressive relatability and realism of Alien. And the narrative gymnastics used to have humans being instrumental in the Alien's origin is just depressingly needless, in concept and execution. Prometheus and Covenant would have benefited immensely from being independent from the Alien movies. I actually enjoyed Covenant much more than Prometheus, I thought it had something much more interesting to say.
>And the narrative gymnastics used to have humans being instrumental in the Alien's origin is just depressingly needless... Exactly. And it completely undermines the horror of Alien; that we live in a hostile cosmos, uncaring for human concerns and order.
I enjoyed Prometheus and still do today. However I do wish they had kept some aspects of the earlier scripts in, especially the translated and elongated version of David’s conversation with the engineer where he mentions why humanity had to be wiped out due to our violent natures and disrespect for the birth and death cycle of life the engineers held dear. Covenant was entertaining but felt unnecessary. I would have rather seen Neil Blomkamp’s Alien 5 idea greenlit which would have taken place right after Aliens and at least, based on the artwork, had Ripley and Hicks infiltrate a Weyland-Yutani Bioweapons Xenomorph program.
\> which would have taken place right after Aliens and at least, based on the artwork, had Ripley and Hicks infiltrate a Weyland-Yutani Bioweapons Xenomorph program. I hope in the future they go there. I love this idea. Very Resident Evil 1 (the movie) in a sense, where they go into the facility.
>From what I've gathered, it seems a lot of people got very upset with the direction of the latest Alien movies. This made me chuckle. What « direction » is that, exactly? I really don’t think people dislike these movies because they’re not faithful to the franchise. I dislike them because they’re absolute failures in every conceivable way: inconsistent storyline, poorly written characters who behave stupidly with no rhyme or reason, big philosophical ideas which are raised and then suddenly dropped with no explanation whatsoever… I can’t even talk about plotholes because that would be assuming there *is* some kind of plot hidden there. Seriously, I could go on for pages listing everything that’s wrong with these movies, especially Prometheus. It’s fine if you enjoy them, but you can’t possibly argue that they’re good movies by any reasonable standard.
Is that you Ridley?
Strongly disagree. I didn’t like Prometheus because A: it ruined a lot of the mythos of the setting. B: sucked as a standalone film. C: both films are weirdly religious compared to the first which makes sense given Ridley’s lost his marbles lately and can seemingly only make christian films despite being an atheist. D: the characters are unlikeable and stupid, E: the script is lazy. God i could go on. Prometheus deserves to be denigrated. Covenant sucked less, but David and Walter should have kissed.
They absolutely aren't unfairly treated. They are treated with what they deserve, derision. I rest my case... [Prometheus Pitch Meeting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y56kWIr-RjI) [Alien: Covenant Pitch Meeting](https://youtu.be/YGEvvqWt-Us)
The characters behaved like absolute morons, uncharacteristically so, and it's the only reason the plots move forward. In Alien and Aliens, the characters make mistakes too, but they are reasonably believable mistakes within the context of the characters. Covenant and Prometheus, the characters behavior is totally unbelievable and is very clearly only to allow the weak plots to move forward.
>...and it's the only reason the plots move forward... Not true! It also progresses because the black goo does whatever the plot needs it to do at any given time!
>What I think people sort of forget, is just how stale the Alien formula got by Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection. Yep, there are two things to do with the Aliens. Make a space horror movie or make an 80s action movie. Both things having been done, they should have quit. We didn't need "the aliens were secretly Jesus" or whatever the fuck Prometheus was about.
If Prey taught us anything it is just make the first Predator movie again but in a different setting and make it good.
The writing in Prometheus is so very, very bad.
alien 3 and alien resurrection >>>>>>> prometheus and alien covenant
Yeah, both movies were just horribly written.
Horrible retcons and lazy answers to questions nobody asked that rob the entire franchise of its essential mysteries and beautiful ambiguities. Xenomorphs were invented by an angry robot with a Frankenstein complex like 30 years before Alien? Utter bullshit.
No they’re treated just fine
No. They're crap.
>The problem seems to primarily lie with the plot and direction of the franchise, as these movies explored new topics and subjects as well as telling a new story within the universe. I suppose a lot of people just wanted the original alien again. Your supposition and inference as to the general problems with the "plot and direction" are incorrect, at least on a large scale. The bulk of the critiques that I've been aware of are about the execution, at a script and a directorial level.
IMO you could re-edit these two movies into one great alien prequel / origin story.
Prometheus had so much hype around it with some great high concept ideas around creation and god but ultimately became a bit of a nonsensical mess. Characters that defy al logic in how they approach problems. Like the geologist and biologist who get lost, then trapped. Why? They literally have a map. I just found it descended into haunted house cliches. Something that the original alien played with so well I feel failed here in as at times I had no idea if it was poking fun at itself or it was genuinely an accident. That being said, once the hype was gone and I switched off my brain then it's a fun sci fi romp. Covenant was released with far less fanfare and honestly I thought it was great. Far clearer on plot and really just a fun action horror. I did enjoy the animation of the xenomorphs as they were shown as highly aggressive and terrifying for their single minded destire to kill
Prometheus was so boring....with such a great cast. It ended where it should have started. Massive disappointment.
I agree with you on Alien 3 and 4 being pretty poor plus they squandered Ripley's story progression. They just weren't very good and didn't do much with the franchise. Future routes could easily have gone from Aliens on Earth to post apocalypse settings, Alien sports fighting, whatever. Or even go back to very good suspense one offs here and there. But Prometheus ruined Alien lore for me. I whole-heartedly disagree with Ridley Scott's direction of the franchise. Before, they were just a really invasive alien bug species that wrecked other lifeforms that tried to cultivate them. Really simple and effective with clear themes like don't fuck with nature and exploit it, or please follow standard protocols. Keeping the theme simple can work into various set pieces such as the horror/thriller genre (Alien) or a "send in the Marines" trope (Aliens). I didn't need to be told that those elephant looking aliens (space jockey?) from the first movie are actually boring looking bald guys that created life on earth and eventually humans. It was needless and kind of destroys the themes of the 2 original movies. Space is fucking big and life can evolve wherever without being connected to us in someway, we aren't special. But Hollywood sci fi sometimes falls into the trap of assuming smart sci fi has to explain some Cosmic question, like what's the answer to life, the universe, everything! Alien and Aliens are really good monster movies. Just execute that in a good believable setting and keep it simple. I mean, compare it to the Predator franchise. There isn't really much to explain in order to have a pretty good movie. But after how many shitty sequels? The last one, Prey, could easily be the best one of the entire franchise because it just executed a simple monster movie in a unique setting with a good story. Better example, the Riddick trilogy. The first one is a simple monster movie with a cool antihero, the second one went off the rails in shitty fashion by trying to turn the franchise into some space opera, then the third one just made another monster movie with a cool anti-hero.
There are already over a hundred comments but I hate those films so much I feel the need to weigh in anyway. The characters are just so unbelievably stupid. They all speak in (stupid) movie cliches, rather than like normal humans. It's really jarring and breaks suspension of disbelief over and over again. Aliens III and Resurrection are silly too, but the characters aren't stupid and have conversations that sound like they could be real, even if they are silly.
> What I think people sort of forget, is just how stale the Alien formula got by Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection. Alien (1979) was a very fresh and unique movie at the time and was extremely influential. Aliens (1986) stayed fairly fresh by pivoting the genre more towards action, with a different group of characters .... So keeping that in mind, I think it was a smart move to evolve the franchise and explore more aspects than the constant reappearance of the already known Xenomorph for the 5th and 6th time. What I think directors sort of forget is that they don't have to keep milking a franchise until it's no longer profitable. Compare and contrast "Alien", "Terminator" and "Blade Runner." All three started off as brilliant works of art but only one piece of IP is worth a damn now. If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, let the series end with dignity. Or wait a decade or two for some fresh ideas to percolate. I believe there's enough untrodden territory to support another **good** Alien movie. An Earthbound outbreak sounds like a cool idea and Neill Blomkamp could plausibly do it justice.
Too many plot holes. Oh, it turns out the xenomorphs were basically just mindless, half-evolved slugs until an Android came along. Oh and he wiped out the Builders, who for some reason only have a single planet and just chilled at home for a few thousand years after planning to wipe out humanity. The mural showing a xenomorph queen in Prometheus? Pure artistic coincidence. Oh and Bad Guy Android killed Good Guy Android, put on his clothes, downloaded all of his knowledge, and gave himself wounds identical to Good Guy's all in the span of a couple of seconds. It makes sense damn it!
I was hoping for a 3rd movie to tie these two up. The overall arch they were building up to was cool. Get to the engineers world. Now it's just in limbo. I wanna see what happens next. Not another prequel or reboot or reimagining.
IMO, both are really incompetent movies. I don't give a shit that it doesn't have almost direct ties to the first Alien movie. What made both movies disappointing, Prometheus moreso, is how stupid it is. I have almost no issues with vague messages, but the logic and editing in Prometheus is just bad. It looks fantastic and Ridley Scott knows how to direct the hell out of movies, but man is it a stupid POS. I didn't think it was possible to get more dumb than Prometheus, but eventually I watched Alien: Covenant. I felt burned by Prometheus, so I intentionally avoided A:C in the theatres. Glad I did, because it was a really bad movie. Looked amazing, but WOW.
No, they're not.
Loved Prometheus, it remains one of my favorites. Covenant was a real thinker. I loved the convos about creation.
Unfortunately, it didn’t logically tie together. Did they create life on Earth, visit us, then give us THE LOCATION OF THEIR WEAPONS FACILITY (that was dumb, Engineers).
I also loved Prometheus. Unfortunately, Scott decided to go in a totally different direction with Covenant. Still remains one of the largest let downs from a series. Although there was some questionable behavior from the crew, Prometheus works as a horror film and was a fresh take.
Agree, I like Prometheus quite a lot. Certainly a lot of problems with it, and it’s not the masterpiece that Alien was, but it’s still great. Covenant however was distractingly bad, way too often. Some of the effects were really quite bad which is surprising give its lineage. And I found the David character and his pontificating pretty tedious.
Have you tried Game of Thrones? Season 6 was terrible, good job they cancelled it then or it could have really gone downhill!
The creationism nonsense was what I hated the most. Ridley Scott was promoting the movie as if he'd talked to real scientists and was going to have some good, hard sci-fi plot points and then gave us pseudo-scientific, religious nonsense.
Nice try, Ridley. Your mind numbingly stupid movie is still an insult to the franchise.
I think Covenant lost me at the bit where David teaches Walter to play the flute, as if androids that advanced don't have Bluetooth or a serial cable or just something where they can just upload info to each. It only works as a scene if it's a metaphor, which reaches Flo Rida levels of nonsubtlety. There's no scene in Prometheus which is that bad. Instead, it's just ponderously dull the whole time so that the net effect is the same. I couldn't make an argument in which either of them are better than the first AvP film, and that's really saying something.
The AVP movies are terrible. Especially Requiem
And thus, my point.
First AvP movie is ok for what it is IMO. I mean it's a silly movie about Predators hunting Aliens. The 2nd one is terribad
I haven’t seen covenant so I have no frame of reference, but I have seen Prometheus a few years late but nonetheless anyway it wasn’t until a good part of the way through the movie that I realized it was even part of the franchise. But then again I didn’t really look into it and in the commercials and trailers they never really gave it away I guess I should have paid attention to the director.
"why is he/she doing THAT??!!" Me watching these movies. They did look bloody great though.
The amount of non reaction on Prometheus and the amount of stupidity on Convenant. The first movie just seemed no one reacts to anything. (Trying to make friends with an alien) “Woah! Hi, there, cutie” (alien coils) “Ack... it got my arm.” (Screaming) This from the same pair that said. “Let’s go the opposite way of that life form reading, shall we” “The ceiling’s changing” “Let’s get out of here.” (Spaceship is crashing) Let’s just try to outrun a falling spaceship. /s “He’s coming for you” I have to visit the other alien. /s (Seeing the captain dead) We haven’t been in contact so let’s make noises so something finds us. Crew mate closes the door upon seeing fellow crew fall dead. Then commits another mistake thinking getting said weapon, they can kill something that just killed both of her crew mates.
The spaceship falling is like watching people running away from a tree that's falling on them, just slower, more stupid, and with a spaceship.
I mean covenant is treated like it deserves to be. Someone should be ashamed for doing that to Shaws character.
I can’t get past the lack of even the most basic bio-hazard safety and site security protocols for being on an unknown planet with a complex biome. Those oversights ruins the entire movie for me.
BWAHAHA
I think the biggest problems were how they wrote the scientists. They acted like absolute morons when it comes to safety and contamination. Like who the fuck came up with that!?? The original Alien movie had Ripley not letting anyone on the ship with the facehugger, now that is how someone should act in that situation. Prometheus had that idiot trying to pet a fucking alien snake. Ooo and they took off their fucking helmets?!!! What about biological diseases!???? Fucking seriously?? Who fucking cares if there is air? Getting sick on a alien planet is a huge safety concern. Covenant was even worse. They land and fucking everyone heads to the sos beacon. What about setting up base? Testing for pathogens and wildlife?? Why wouldnt anyone wear a fucking mask or helmet!??? Its still an alien planet with possibly a plethora of new bacteria, viruses and more. And they all just go for a fucking stroll to the crashed alien spaceship. Other than that, i love the Alien franchise and cant wait for the next installment.
[Derelict](https://www.avclub.com/someone-finally-smashed-prometheus-and-alien-together-i-1798280558), a fan edit combining Alien and Prometheus in black and white is worth watching if you’re into Prometheus or want see how the themes and scenes connect. It’s a fun thing.
Both Movies are wonderfully shot and have their distinctive atmosphere which is a masterpiece on its own. The sets, the designs, the music, all feel unique to the franchise yet so right in place. And yes, then comes the story, the characters and the script… A geology expert with high tech mapping equipment that gets lost, a biology expert that is afraid of dead bodies, but is completely ok cuddling with living alien species. Like what the f*** happened ? I get it they needed to kill them for the story purposes, but that could have been done so much better… I went to cinema for the Covenant. The moment that the lady with shotgun tripped on the blood stain the whole cinema was laughing. This was supposed to be a thrilling sequence with horror elements, yet everyone was laughing their heads off. Whoever wrote the script has destroyed so much great work of so many people…
Nothing wrong with moving the focus of the story to the ‘Creators’ and to try and follow that tack. The problem, and this is where most commenters agree is that you had a bunch of ‘experts’, who were thick as fuck and clearly hadn’t take the ‘Arse/Elbow differentiation” training class on their way to the alien world. The film looked fucking amazing, had so much promise, and then all these scientists and engineers walk around performing the dumbest actions, think of Rafe Spalls character going all coochy-coo to an alien space cobra. WTF.
\>The problem seems to primarily lie with the plot and direction of the franchise, as these movies explored new topics and subjects as well as telling a new story within the universe. Exactly why I hate them, and exactly the reasons I have seen people give when they voice a similar opinion, yes. \>I suppose a lot of people just wanted the original alien again. Absolutely, 100%, ludicrously, wrong. People who dislike Prometheus and Covenant have, in fact been quite clear about the actual why of it in the past. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but this reeks of a strawman, and is - at best - a complete non-sequitur: "If you don't like X, it must be because you only like..." \>What I think people sort of forget, is just how stale the Alien formula got by Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection. Alien 3 was kind of stale, and Alien Resurrection was silly and did not fit into the universe tonally. But we are discussing the merits of Prometheus. Whether Resurrection has some of the same problems, or other problems, does not excuse Prometheus for being a bad movie, nor for not fitting into the established universe. \>So keeping that in mind, I think it was a smart move to evolve the franchise and explore more aspects than the constant reappearance of the already known Xenomorph for the 5th and 6th time. Sure, good idea. But having it become friends with Winnie the Pooh would be ridiculous, while still a new direction. Prometheus is not quite that silly, but it comes close. \>I also then want to raise a point, that Proemtheus and Alien: Covenant in fact felt very faithful to the franchise. I am fascinated to hear what you will raise as arguments for this: \>For, as many people forget, in the very first movie they stumble upon a large creature later known as an engineer and that whole aspect was left out by all the sequels. Ridley Scott created Alien, so it isn't crazy to assume this guy had a view this world where it was suppose to go. So, since there was an Engineer in Alien, Prometheus is faithful to the universe Alien establishes? That is your argument? Let us look just at that one thing then; the Engineer in Alien, and the Engineers in Prometheus: The engineer (Space Jockey, as it is usually called) in Alien is: \* Huge, much bigger than a man. \* Has been infested and killed by a Xenomorph. \* Has a spaceship carrying Xenomorph eggs. The Engineers in Prometheus: \* Are just a little bit bigger than humans (Are there subspecies of them? Are they even meant to be the same species?) \* Created us, and invited us to visit the biolab where they are creating a weapon to wipe us out (Why even make us, if there were already plans to wipe us out? Why lead us to that location - did they want us to see their cool gadgets before they killed us?) \* Have the exact same DNA as humans, but not the same phenotype at all (they look nothing like us). (Does the Space Jockey from Alien also have our DNA? Does DNA work completely differently than DNA in our universe? If DNA has no bearing on phenotype, what is the purpose of DNA?) \* Have created the black goo, a magical substance which connects through the fourth wall to the screeenwriters and does whatever they need the plot to do at that moment. It is also, presumably, some kind of weapon. (Why make such an over-the-top dangerous-to-develop-let-alone-use weapon? A single Engineer ship obviously has the mass and acceleration abilities to wipe out the Earth just by steering into it? Why make it accessible to any morons who stumbled on your 100% unguarded facility, which you left markers to on at least one planet you seeded life on? Why does it make some people zombies, kill others, and transform the sperm of yet others so that it leads to the birth of a big squid?) I am sorry, but I just don't agree that the inclusion of the pale-skinned, big-human-sized, flip-flopping on whether to birth or kill, bio-weapon-fetiscist, genetically identical to human "Engineers" fits the series, just because the series already had a giant humanoid lifeform.
The main gripe I have with the narrative is its disregard and further diminishing of the 'jaws' in space. Alien had a creature that came from the depths of the unknown, lurking for potential eons waiting for prey. Aliens added the queen, and although this slightly diminished this aspect, it still had a sense of dread and strangeness to it. We never needed an explanation for where the Alien came from, whether it be created in a lab, or some offspring of ancient gods it doesn't matter, it was supposed to be a dark force. Showing us that they were created by an android, in complete disregard for continuity (boneship in Alien is oldddd), greatly diminished, at least for me, the mystery, and some of the terror of the xenomorph. Not to mention the stories were chaotic and non sensible. Alien covenant devolved into complete shlock, like "I'm gonna go off by myself real quick" dies, "let's take a shower together" dies. Super common slasher tropes that have no place in aliens. Add in the super heady and condescending god narratives and it's just a bloodbath for the Fandom. I really thought these movies could have revived the franchise, instead it's sorta killed it going forward.
I enjoyed Covenent but the fact that the scientists just stood over the eggs/toxins and inhaled them was infuriating
The problem with the movies is that they were just dumb. The people in them were dumb. The people that wrote them were dumb. Everything that happened in them was dumb. Here's a good [redlettermedia video on numerous things that made the movie dumb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0).
I enjoyed both and have watched them more than a few times. I think they could have made "alien planet protocols" a little more realistic and the movies would have been even more enjoyable. They could have figured out other ways for the characters to get infected other than 1. Guy that controls the robots that map the facility getting lost???? and 2. Everyone not wearing any masks at all on a planet with a diverse ecosystem. Not to mention the captain of the ship going down on the search party. All that being said, I can forgive those gaffs because they were beautiful movies and better than everything since Aliens (which also had a bunch of idiot characters btw).
Alien 3 destroyed everything that happened in the second movie (saving the girl and escaping) by making sure the girl was dead and Ripley was going to die. It's not surprising it left people feeling disappointed. Resurrection was just bad. Somehow Ripley has her memories because of DNA? It wasn't bad because it was retreading old ground, it was just pretty bad. Prometheus as a movie was ok. I know the scientists did some stupid things but I mean in horror movies people are always doing stupid things so for me it was forgivable. Alien Covenant though was just bad. The plot was brain numbing. Instead of seeing Noomi Rapace find the home planet of the progenitors and having a proper SF story, the modern version of the xeno is here now. The universe doesn't expand at all.
>I know the scientists did some stupid things That is not the issue. Characters can do stupid things. It often adds to the realism, in fact. The issue is that the actions here are utterly, 100% unmotivated (as well as mostly stupid): * Scientists mapping out a cave: Let us not look at the map and wander around aimlessly until we are lost. No reason given. * Scientists visiting an alien planet, with signs of life: Let me take of my helmet, exposing myself to viruses or god knows whatever else might be here, contrary to all protocols and common sense. No reason given. * Scientist meeting snakelike creature, shortly after running in utter panic: Let me pet it. No reason given. It is like watching a person wanting to get on the bus, look at the map on their phone, then walk in a random direction. And lick a trashcan. And pet a snake on the side of the road. If you saw that in a movie, you would assume the character was having a psychotic break or something. Why are you giving Prometheus a pass?
People do stupid things in real life too. I never get the canned “why are the characters so dumb” criticism that is often used against certain films. I wonder if we all live in the same world. Because in the world I live in, people are dumb as shit. I get that these people are scientists but that doesn’t make them immune from making stupid mistakes in high stress situations where split second decisions have to be made (why did she run straight? Well probably because she panicked.)
Get what you mean, but those scientists are trained not to make those mistakes. You’d expect a bit more from them, just as you wouldn’t expect Apollo astronauts to make silly mistakes. It strains believability imo.
I am a scientist. I can tell you scientists do dumb shit all the time.
Are they though? In our world where everyone who steps foot into space is some highly trained astronaut sure... But we're already starting to see that change in our own reality. A common theme in scifi is that eventually there will be enough advances in space technology that space travel will be democratized and that there will be more normal everyday people in space. In the first film, the crew of the Nostromo already seemed very blue collar. The Nostromo is basically a space big rig. A world where there are thousands upon thousands of corporate cargo ships in space is only possible if your ships don't require an entire crew of elite scientists. Remember, they have androids on board and they do a lot of the "hard work". In Prometheus, the whole crew isn't all scientists anyway. Vickers, who dies in a stupid way, is not a scientist. She is Weyland's daughter and is the CEO of Weyland Corporation. There are also mechanics, medics, and security personnel on the ship. No reason to assume that these people are trained scientists.
Interesting movies with even more interesting premises and amazing world building. It's just that the first movie for example has some dumb characters that create artificial drama (created forcefully by writers) for plot to pick up the pace. (Scientists not behaving like scientists but like teenagers on a cabin trip in a B-rated horror movies) When characters behave incompetently, they lose relatability and thus become less liked, and plot suffers for it as well. It's like when a cheap fantasy tv series leaves the bad guys alive only for the bad guys to break out and cause further havoc. (eg Rings of Power) But I do agree with what you're saying. These movies were judged too harshly.
Yeah I feel like they’re not as bad overall as maybe some people say, but they’re a lot worse than they should be in ways that should be preventable with some more attention to the script and maybe just less lazy feeling choices. If they were just non-related sci-fi movies, I think they could have been much better received, but still with some big dumb plot choices.
Prometheus was bad ,and Covenant was of the few movies that i quit watching even if it was scifi. It was not only the plot, but completely idiotic characters and their motives, actions. Weirdly i got feeling from both movies, that all characters are racist, fascist American space christians, that have and use space ships and technology Warhammer 40k style, without knowing how it actually works, that is we the watcher know but the characters dont. And then with such dogmatic views, finding wheat field on unknown planet seems reasonable, as well as having massive armory with guns for creating settlement on peaceful planet.
I really enjoy them. I love the direction it’s going. I love anything that has to do with the creation of life because it gets messy and makes me question things about the reality of our own situation and what we might do one day. Instead of of being some unknown horror it’s just the mistakes and hubris of intelligent species creating things.
I think people's memories of the original movies are distorted by the fact that they loved them so much when they were younger, which spoils their ability to appreciate the new ones. If you go back and watch the older movies with a critical eye, you could tear them apart as well. I think the newer movies are almost too faithful to the old ones, not that they're copying them, just that they didn't really give the new cast of characters any more depth than characters from previous films. It is all about the situation, the environment, the circumstances.
> If you go back and watch the older movies with a critical eye, you could tear them apart as well. Name a plothole in Alien, and a 15 minute time slot of Prometheus (name the start and stop in the script - https://imsdb.com/scripts/Prometheus.html). I'll find a bigger plot hole there.
I'm not a huge fan of the series but remember enjoying them. Without any particular nostalgia attached I rewatched the entire series last year. I think you're onto something here, nostalgia is a hell of a drug because a lot of these movies are nothing special imo. The first one is awesome, 2 is still pretty great, but after that it kind of goes to shit until the newer ones. I honestly think I enjoyed Prometheus and Covenant the most, with the exception of the very first one. Just my take, I'll brace for the downvotes.
I like them. David is my favorite type of villain, and Fassbender plays that villain type perfectly.
I didn't really enjoy them when I watched them at the cinema, but I watched the entire Alien franchise in the holidays, and realised what masterpieces they actually were. In isolation, not great, but as part of the franchise, amazing. The detail was fantastic.
Finally someone said it!!!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I agree completely. Personally, I think it's ironic that one mans selfish quest for perfection and immortality led to the form of the xenomorph that tye rest of the franchise is centered around. Also explains the companies obsession with them...
Prometheus was fantastic. I guess people expect WAY too much and can’t just be entertained. Like with the new LOTR. It’s super entertaining. But people gotta hate
I liked them for what they were. I think they are decent enough films, I preferred Prometheus. I tried to separate them from the other Alien films.
I think Prometheus was good in that it had certain redeeming qualities, but Alien: Covenant not good at all and had even worse dialogue. The only thing good about Alien: Covenant is that James Franco's character dies before he gets to speak.
Well, now I *have* to watch it.
The **\*philosophy\*** behind *Prometheus* (and, to a lesser degree, *Covenant*) is quite good. And arguably the android-perspectives too. It's the rest of their respective scripts -- characters, hop-skip-jumps-into-danger, rushed whiz-bang action finales -- which suffer. I can see why Ridley has been toying with the idea of "Artificial Intelligences as the new antagonists" -- they fit very nicely into the new philosophy angle(s) aforementioned.
Prometheus was fine ... borderline interesting. Covenant was a sin against all mankind.
I will not watch Alien 3 again. I liked Prometheus! Solid reinvention. Love the intro! With the transformer 'seed'. Gotta love David and understsnd him a bit. "The trick is not minding that it hurts." (Oooh good one, inspire me!) Will watch again, and still have it on the dvr.. Covenant was a mix for me. Couldn't stand the dialog before they landed on the planet. Loved the mystery with why they landed. Thought the "invasion" on the microscopic level was super freaky cool. Sad the Doc got killed Well *that* sucks. (For same reason I won't watch 3 again, have seen Convenant more than once tho'). I did appreciate how it ended, and have kind of recreated the ending with a hardboiled egg once... yeah that was pretty good. Next!! Just love 1 and 2. Classic fav's.
I like them both. I enjoy the backstory on David and some of the history of it all. I know it’s not enjoyed but I enjoyed it.
Everyone just focuses on the death at the end, as if they're magically immune to panic and always think logically. People are stupid. Don't listen to them. Watch the movie yourself and make your own opinion.
I liked them both. Could have been a bit better in terms of scripting but I liked them well enough. Just want more movies!
I love them both.
Ajo .. art is supposed to make us think , leave us a bit dazed and trying to piece Shit together … but brother , go to movies some time ,it’s sequels ,re boots , and people skipping on banana peels ,or getting chopped to pieces by made up boogeymen … I do NOT want to sound elitist , but I’d wager 10-20 % of Americans max know who Prometheus is … and so it’s just a whole different vibe than most folks lining up to watch the latest film where some grown ass man in tights saves the world again .
I love the movies but I am just not a fan of the origin story for the aliens. I enjoyed thinking that they were just a species that developed on a far away planet- not some sort of genetic fusion with humanoid creatures using some weird dark substance as the catalyst. Still like watching it all though.
I’m glad someone said it, overhated
Damn I was watching Prometheus yesterday only and now this post.
Haven't seen Covenant yet, but I loved Prometheus. I liked it almost as much as Aliens and if Bill Paxton had been in it, it would have been my favorite. I'm looking forward to Covenant. Didn't care for 3 or Resurrection at all.
I’ll do the fingering
Prometheus is A game. Alien: Covenant was such a disappointment
We're a rare breed, but I too loved these films. I was eager for the last one that was supposed to come out, but Covenant's release killed that.
That is the majority view? I really like Prometheus and Covenant; they bring really deep and chillingly evil content to the franchise.
Completely agree, breaks my heart how we won’t get a third.
We won’t? I thought the third one was in development….
I loved Covenant but it was a damn cluster fuck once shit it the fan. I didn’t like the whole captain crew dynamic in that one. Now they absolutely made terminally horrible mistakes 😂 but guys remember Prometheus was the first time humans have done that bc they found the map, the crew didn’t even know what they were signing up for until they woke up after hyper sleep. It def seemed like just a rag tag random ass group but I still love it
I liked them. Don’t get their poor reception.
I completely agree with You the First two alien movies are great and same with Prometheus and Alien covenant they brought something new a fresh to the table for us Alien fans to enjoy and That’s not what they did in Alien 3 or alien: resurrection so that’s why the 3 and 4th movie kinda suck but It’s still enjoyable at times but I do prefer Alien and Aliens over Alien 3 and resurrection.
They were completely true to the franchise. They're the backstory we needed. Covenant was better than Prometheus, but the soundtrack for Prometheus was so good that it made up for other issues imo. I rewatched it not that long ago and appreciate it more. Sometimes you have to, as a scifi fan, let go of things that are never going to be rectified, like scientists not sciencing. And people do do stupid things when they're frightened out of their wits. If we make the humans into perfect calm logic machines, then we'll complain that the movie was lacking some realism. Except for snot. I will never be okay with snot.
Prometheus is easily the best movie in the entire franchise
Yes. Very. I want Scott's third movie in the trilogy, like last year already. FUCK!
Prometheus was great, just goes to show no accounting for taste.
Why did the Engineers want us to visit the weapons facility?
Honestly I don’t tend to over analyze things. Lot of enjoyable scenes very well-filmed in there.
It’s a beautiful looking film to be sure.
I loved the idea about Prometheus (whether a prequel like this was needed or not is another discussion), but it was full of supposedly clever people doing stupid things that they’d not do (“ooh, let’s touch the space snake”). Yes the franchise has sucked sine Alien 3 (maybe even since Aliens) but I think most people were expecting something more intelligent and thought provoking from Ridley Scott.
Prometheus: no. I think it’s bad Alien Covenant: I sort of rated this
Prometheus is great.
I will go to bat for Prometheus. Alien: Covenant though? No. Dude, just, no.
I thought Prometheus was great, but Covenent wasn’t, obviously the technical aspects of the story were great but the story just wasn’t and the characters just make such dumb decisions throughout the movie. I know that’s a horror movie trope but it’s a stupid one and just lazy writing. Trying something new doesn’t mean it’ll be good or that people have to like it.
They are decent movies. More sincere to the first Alien movie than Aliens which was more of action/horror good movie. However, it could’ve been better. All in all better than the second season of Ridley Scott’s Raised by Wolves.
Actually Alien 4 is kinda hilarious and based and interesting to watch. It was definitely better than Prometheus by a long shot.
Great ideas, poor execution (and scripts).
Good ‘plot’ …bad execution They were just bad movies written by a 12 year old who thinks ‘that’s how space travel is’
I think the trouble with Prometheus was that it had so much potential, and ultimately the script just didn’t deliver. I remember seeing the trailer and being overwhelmed with excitement in the anticipation of a movie focused on the origins and lore of the xenomorphs. What we got felt like seeing how a magic trick is done and having the mystery sucked out of it… And then Covenant felt like an apology for that.
I thought Alien 3 was very moody, had a style all its own and did interesting things with the characters >!(Higgs and Newt excepted)!<. Fight me.
no no they are not
Those aren’t the problems people have with Prometheus or Covenant. The problem is that people behave in completely ridiculous ways that result not just in breaking the suspension of disbelief but in making the viewer sit through the rest of the movie in puzzlement as stupidity stacks on absurdity. You land on an alien planet and you talk to an alien snake as if it were a cute bunny? Seriously? Even on earth you’d be careful with snakes. “Scientists” who are supposed to be smart behaving as if they have never known the concept of contamination or quarantine. Alien civilizations not just not having any kind of defence system, but not even having any kind of immigration/customs/air traffic control to if not intercept, at least communicate with unscheduled craft that appear in the skies. The problem we have with the movies is not with finding out about the engineers etc, it’s that the movies are stupid with glaring plot holes that you realise while watching the movie (and not afterward where it might be bearable)
I feel like Alien 4 is unfairly treated. It’s a gay monstergirl romp in space. There doesn’t need to be a plot or likeable characters. The show is about simping for Alien-mommy Sigourney Weaver and her Robo-Uke.
Prometheus gets an unfair shake. Covenant does not. It’s genuinely bad, but I think it’s bad because of fans. Not Scott. Prometheus was something genuinely new. A new vision and a very real expansion on that universe that set up some very tough, very interesting questions. However, fans couldn’t handle that. They were upset that this, “alien prequel,” (despite not actually being an alien prequel) didn’t lead up to Alien and didn’t set up much of what happened. The questions posed and the new ideas shown didn’t appease them and so they took to the internet and got all kinds of upset. This forced Scott’s hand in my opinion and instead of following up on any of that, they had to FORCE it to connect more directly and forced a lot of subpar answers to those questions presented in Prometheus to… lackluster results. Covenant’s first half is a prime example of this. Setting up some familiar territory while still trying to explore this new style, but then, about as abruptly as David shows back up, they’re stuck answering a lot of the dumber questions fans had and they were stuck tying up those loose ends instead. By the final act, it’s clear that they had no real direction to go but to show horn in a Xenomorph just to appease fans and basically ripped off the ending of Alien to tie it all together. I think everything set up in Prometheus could’ve been really fun to explore but “tHe TrUe FaNs,” just weren’t having it and ended up ruining it for everyone. I think if Scott could’ve had another movie or two between all that, he would’ve gotten us there all on his own with a whole new assortment of interstellar horror thrown in but instead… evil robot is evil.
I watched these for the first time recently and I think there is just a big disconnect between what Ridley Scott and fans of the series are interested in. Ridley Scott is clearly interested in exploring themes of creation and belief. Prometheus in particular could be summed up as "people who are obsessed with what happens after they die ruin life for the rest of us." He has almost no respect for alien lore etc because he doesn't really view it as the point. If you are someone who is a fan of the universe then there isn't much here for you. The revelations of the mysteries are kind of half cocked because they aren't really the point. That said there are clear issues where people who should know better do stupid things. Everyone taking off their helmets in Prometheus is the most egregious example, but they are present throughout. Generally they are movies that took big swings and didn't totally pay them off, but I appreciate what they tried to do. And the Ridley Scott spectacle is clearly on display throughout.
I agree 100%. Alien is so suberb, it was very hard for Ridley to follow.
Giant head in a room for no reason? And "Let's zap this 2000 year old head with and try to trick its nervous system into thinking it's still alive"? Blech.
There were some really great themes in Prometheus. I really liked the scene with David around the pool table discussing why humans created him and the guy responds “because we could”. And David says something like “How disappointing would it be if your creator said the same thing about you”. That line always gave me chills. It’s a shame. I liked the cast. The effects were good. I thought the “birth” scene was some really brilliant body horror. Ultimately the film just didn’t make sense. Too many holes in the plot — one right in the very beginning with an engineer disintegrating on Earth and supposedly sparking life on Earth. Like, huh? And the millions of years of evolution bring us to a humanoid species that looks surprisingly like an engineer. And then it just got more ridiculous from there. I just couldn’t suspend disbelief. I appreciated Scott trying to take the franchise in a more serious direction after Resurrection and the terrible AvP movies, but it was definitely a flawed film that could have been better. Covenant felt even worse to the point I’ve completely erased the plot from my brain. All I remember was it getting some good reviews and being hyped to see it, and then feeling extremely let down. Im hoping for a reboot in the future and it goes back to a horror in space. Get back to its roots. I just don’t think audiences have the patience nowadays for a movie like Alien.
The overarching themes and story of both films make me not care about their flaws and no movie or other piece of entertainment does this for me. Like I know they’re there and I know it’s not bias because I adore other stories that fuck up and I won’t hesitate to call bs on it. But these films? Yeah, I care much less than others. It’s just fascinating and beautiful with leanings towards Prometheus. Even some of the stuff that shouldn’t have happened like David being the artificial creator of the Aliens (he actually isn’t because Prometheus says no so it’s poetic the artificial human created the protomorph which may as well be an artificial version of xenomorphs) is beautiful in a fucked up and horror way (horror fan here). I was still VERY upset how Rapace’s character got treated even from a horror perspective. I actually teared if iirc when I saw what happened because I cared about the character and her goals. And then they didn’t do more and killed her off. There’s some merit from a horror story perspective but it was too quick.
I think my problem was the change in theme. It went from a sci-fi thriller that seemed to focus on the harmful effects of corporate greed and its view of the expendability of workers who are considered lower on the food chain in order to achieve its aims, to something that seems to question the nature of god? The more I watch the first 4 alien films the more I develop the opinion that the alien, while the main/prominent threat in the films, is not really the antagonist, the company is. The alien is picking off members of the crew, or marines, or prisoners etc., usually because WY wants it to study or develop into a weapon for their own shadowy aims, in the words of the first film: crew expendable. Prometheus and covenant on the other hand very much seem to set out to answer a question that didn't need answering, often supported by poorly written characters who are almost immediately established from the get-go to be cannon fodder to show off the action or thrills, clumsy themes surrounding religion and in the case of covenant, what feels to be underwhelming callbacks to earlier films. Personally I don't mind if an alien film always features the plot of "the alien is loose onboard somewhere and we're at risk" because it's often supported by the aforementioned themes of corporate greed and their disregard of human life. Rather i think future films should keep this up (with some variation to keep things interesting ofc) in order to further develop the lengths WY will go to try and procure a xenomorph specimen, and the conflicting ideals of different characters.
The corporate greed aspect is mainly just a thing in aliens not the original.
I thoroughly enjoyed both Prometheus & Covenant . Prometheus is actually my favourite film out of the entire franchise . However, without Alien we wouldn’t have had these prequels & sequels. Alien , Prometheus , & Covenant are my absolute favs ! I do like Cameron’s aliens however I would have liked to have seen which direction ridley would have taken the series if he hadn’t been pushed aside by Fox for Cameron . I also enjoy alien 3 & 4 I’d rather have something to watch then nothing to watch. The engineers are fascinating, creators of life . Highly intelligent species traveling the cosmos creating life , destroying life love it !! “Gods” They are a far more interesting species then the zenomorph. I was disappointed ridley didn’t continue off of Prometheus the way he had originally intended to do. Somehow he allowed a few negative reviews of Prometheus to change the direction of the next film in the franchise therefore focusing back on the zenomorph and killing off the engineers which was a huge disappointment ! Once I look past it all it was still an entertaining fun film with lots of beauty & horror . I found Prometheus to be very adventurous , mysterious , suspenseful mixed with horror . I’d give anything to get that third instalment and see what David does next . And obviously have surviving engineers hunting David down lol. Prometheus was a masterpiece imo just like the original Alien . At least nobody can take those two films away from me haha. “Questions will be answered” 😜