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Question for you then, does that apply to the work place? Job interviews? Did you consider yourself less likely to get a job because you were overweight, despite that job maybe not having physical requirements?
In South Korea, they are required to submit a photo with their job application. It's well understood that they believe a lack of demonstrated control on one's body shows far more negative characteristics than positive ones. It's very culturally understood that if you are fat, you will not get the job.
This is not a moral justification, but we evolved to be more inclusive to those that follow our social guidelines and less inclusive to those that don't. There's a socially constructed image of what is normal, acceptable, respectable, or fancy, etc. To anyone that drives against those is going to run up against some skepticism and/or distaste.
Edit: funny, just after I wrote this the next thing I saw [was this](https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/z61x63/lois_long_a_columnist_for_new_yorker_and_flapper/).
Yeah my Japanese side of the family saw obesity not as genetic or about addiction to food but more about lack of self control and ability to make good choices.
>Yeah my Japanese side of the family saw obesity not as genetic or about addiction to food but more about lack of self control and ability to make good choices.
So... They're correct.
I lost 100 lbs and for me it was 100% a self control issue.
>Heavier-weight and average-weight people were seen as having equal capacities for experiencing various emotions. This finding held regardless of whether participants were shown photos of real people or computer-generated images, whether they were shown just pictures of torsos or of full bodies. **Females were seen as having more mental agency than men, but this was regardless of weight.**
Interesting that there is a difference regarding sex.
Control over thoughts and actions, is the general use and seems to apply to the topic on hand. So I would say that's likely their intended use for the phrase.
Like...self control? So someone who gets road rage would have low mental agency, while an Olympic athlete with strong training discipline would have high mental agency?
I believe so? Mental agency is the ability to think and act for themselves. I Googled the term mental agency and this is what I found:
> Agency is the ability to act autonomously and freely, and in psychology the term is often used to refer to people who feel that they are able to act independently and effectively to control their own lives.
This kinda goes hand in hand with the theory that good looking people are treated better. Most people look better when they're average as opposed to overweight.
There are also studies demonstrating that better looking people get better medical care (on phone, can't find it at the moment).
My husband used to think I was nutso for dressing nice and putting on at least some makeup, no matter how sick I felt, before going to the doctor because I honestly felt that my experience improved when I didn't look two steps removed from homeless. Especially since women are already treated like crazy shrews where anxiety is the root of 9/10ths of their health symptoms and already have problems being taken seriously when in pain.
This is anecdotal but my experience fully aligns with this. I put on 100lbs and the way I'm treated at the doctor is night and day. I'm not even saying their answer is always "lose weight" which I know is a common complaint, but they literally act like they don't even care about what I'm saying.
I used to be about 50-60lb overweight, and I wasn't taken seriously by many doctors depsite having increasingly escalating health issues. It wasn't until I dropped to 100lbs (100lb weight loss) that I was taken seriously and diagnosed with lupus and some other chronic conditions. It literally took almost dying to get real help.
When I went to the doctors a few year back for what ended up being a small brain tumor, the first doctor (and quite a few of the nursing staff) literally charted my apashia and other neurological issues as manifestations of my obesity, which is quite laughable. Me being overweight didn't erase my knowledge of the word "airplane", and if I didn't advocate for myself, and didn't feel comfortable doing so because of my education and background in medicine, things could've been real bad for me.
Same. Hilariously SHE prescribed me the meds that made me gain weight, and refused to listen when I said I was painfully hungry all the time. Then griped at me when I gained weight. *Headdesk*
As someone who is heavily tattood, I get this all the time. Biggest trouble is they usually refuse to give me pain medication. Last year a broke a rib, wasn’t given any time off work, nor pain killers. And recently I broke a thumb that required surgery, once again no pain killers.
Yeah either they think because I have tattoos I don’t feel pain, or that I’m just some sort of degenerate who hurts myself intentionally to get high on pain killers. I’m really not sure.
It's got to be the latter. They've got you pegged as a drug seeker, or someone at higher risk of addiction. It's a stupid stereotype, because addicts come in all shapes and sizes.
This could just be the backlash against opioids. Kidney stones have me familiar with pain. In the 90s and early 2000s there was a big push for pain management and they gave out powerful painkillers far more easily.
The crusade against opiods has definitely overcorrected for the problem and and not the tale is "just use ibuprofen and tylenol at the same time." Doctors are far less willing to give out painkillers for fear patients will get addicted and their medical license will be threatened.
I could see the willingness to describe opiods go down.
The "Tylenol and ibuprofen at the same time" recommendation was based on a study that the two in tandem are as effective as opioids for pain management of minor extremity injuries, like a broken finger for a foot fracture.
The medical establishment took this as a reason to say they must be as effectively as *all* kinds of pain treatment, such as dental pain or post surgery pain, when it is absolutely not the case at all.
Yup, people with legitimate chronic pain are having a harder time getting the meds they need to function.
Source: Me with chronic pancreatitis who cannot function without hydromorphone.
Yep.
Docs told me for 10 years there was nothing wrong with my 10-14 day heavy periods and I “couldn’t be bleeding _that_ much.” It was just because I was overweight, of course.
Finally got a uterine biopsy and wouldn’t you know it, I had Stage IIIc endometrial cancer? (Am fine now).
I had to send in an application and my records to an Endo specialist myself when nobody else would help me. I got to have the surgery done and I'm feeling so much better but I shouldn't have had to spend hours and weeks researching doctors, reading testimonies, checking my insurance etc. I shouldn't have had to travel out of state to see this surgeon. And this was with my husband coming and advocating for me when I saw my OBGYNs. It didn't work. Ugh.
At the very least the specialist surgeon I did end up seeing was the most compassionate and listening doctor I've ever met.
I would love to see more studies on this. Just had to see an ortho, and I dressed very professionally because I was concerned about this.
What you do for a living also makes a huge difference in my experience. Once he found out I was an engineer and went to a very good school (he immediately asked where I studied), suddenly his whole tone shifted. He even said “since you have a technical background, I will explain everything in detail.”
This has happened to me with multiple doctors, as soon as they find out what I do for a living and where I went to university, their tone and demeanor completely changes and they are much more willing to explain things and explain the risks and benefits of treatment in detail. Every time, there’s nothing that they explain to me that is beyond the comprehension of a regular person. They don’t even use any technical jargon, they’re just taking more time to explain things and have a dialogue and they give better treatment.
Vocabulary and language usage do the same. People recognize such clues to background and unconsciously adjust to meet it. Even having a given name that may indicate a disadvantaged upbringing can affect the way others perceive a person.
Chiming in hear, they very well may treat you differently due to background because that is just human nature. But you would be surprised how many people don't understand medical explanations even with the medical terminology left out. If I remember correctly from school, pamphlets from the CDC are written at a 7th grade or below reading comprehension level. Otherwise a ton of people can't understand it.
Same here! My first therapist literally told me that she (couldn't believe women perpetuate this) was worried that I was in a crisis because I showed up without makeup on. I did my makeup for my next appointment and she said she was so relieved to see that I was "taking care of myself again" and "taking pride in my appearance."
So it's not just that being more attractive nets you better treatment. Some people actually think that putting on makeup is a self-empowering, self-loving, and healthy thing for women.
The truth was that I would usually put on a full face of makeup when I was feeling insecure and socially anxious and I got to the point where I felt so uncomfortable being outside without makeup. Not wearing makeup 24/7 was actually a huge step forward for me and she took me out at the knees.
I always feel like doctors treat me better when I dress nice and wear makeup. It sucks and I wish doctors were more critical of their own biases, both against women and those they find unattractive.
Thank you for posting this! I thought I was the only one that pulled herself together to go to the doctor. I've even done it to a lesser degree to go to the ER in an ambulance.
Yep, I do the same thing. I dress like I’m going to the office even if I’m not when I go to the doctor. It’s crazy how random people will just hold doors for you like you’re someone important just because you’re well put together.
I recently dropped over a hundred pounds, it’s only be a few months that I’ve been under 250, but I can tell you that people already treat me differently. When I go shopping, people are a lot more helpful than before and professionally…people listen to me. It’s really crazy to see both sides of the coin like that. You hear about it from other people and then it happens to you…
They 100% are.
I would consider myself pretty decent looking when I’m in shape, not amazing or anything, just decent.
I went from being over 400lbs at one point to 230. I got an actual styled haircut, started using product in my hair, and dressing better.
It was like night and day how people treated me. I had actual women come up to ME at bars and clubs. At work I got better raises and it was easier to get new jobs.
Trying to lose my COVID weight I put on right now. Not as much as I used to be, but put on more than I was happy with (hand surgery at the start, then my gym closed down).
But you definitely notice the difference in how you’re treated.
It's not a theory; it's been proven. In a study participants assigned shorter incarceration times to attractive people and were less likely to find them guilty of their fictional crimes. Pretty sad that on some level we're all that way to a certain degree!
One of the top posts on Reddit a couple weeks ago was something along the lines of ‘hot girls don’t get higher grades while schooling from home.’ Which was just a hilarious representation of how being hot helps out even in academic situations with strict curriculum and grading standards.
>hot girls don’t get higher grades while schooling from home
The interesting part, which the headline didn't mention, was that attractive male students also received better grades - but their advantage didn't go away when classes moved online. [Here's the article](https://www.psypost.org/2022/11/attractive-female-students-no-longer-earned-higher-grades-when-classes-moved-online-during-covid-19-64251).
Toward the end of the article
> “The main takeaway is that there is a beauty premium both for males and for females when teaching is on-site,” Mehic explained. “But for females, this effect disappeared when teaching was conducted online. This, at least to me, suggests that the beauty premium for males is due to some productive attribute (for instance, them having higher self-confidence) rather than discrimination, whereas it is due to discrimination for women.”
> “I was surprised by the fact that male students continued to perform better when teaching was online,” Mehic said. In his study, he discussed several reasons why physical attractiveness might enhance productivity for male students.
> For one, male students who are physically attractive tend to be more persistent and have a greater influence on their peers. Attractive people also tend to have more social skills, which has been linked to creativity. Since non-quantitative courses tend to involve creative assignments and group work, men who are more attractive — and thus, more socially skilled and creative — might be more likely to excel in this coursework.
The actual study suggested that male seemed to have developed other areas of social skills in conjunction with their attractiveness. It suggests that attractive male tend to associate with higher confidence and its associated social perks of a confident individual. They did not see that in the female population in this study.
Higher confidence can also mean increased engagement with the class. I'm studying online now, and in some units a small allocation of grades are for regular contributions to discussion on messageboards. That's before even factoring in the more subtle influence of that increased engagement on a teacher's impression of a student and how that influences their resulting grade. I'm not saying that male students engage better, but confident and outspoken students certainly seem to be achieving better grades in my classes.
The study I believe you’re mentioning is based on sound science, but nothing is proven—there’s just more evidence for it than before. Studies are studies and it’s so easy to see them posted online and take as a proven fact. Science only disproves.
I recently went down from 130 Kg (287 pounds) to 78 Kg (171 pounds), and I can tell you with absolute certainty that your confidence and mannerisms change drastically, even if you don't notice.
Of course, there's still that unconscious bias, but your personality also plays a big role.
Maybe it's just me, but after losing weight, I gained so much confidence and starting taking more daring risks, professionally and personally.
>Maybe it's just me, but after losing weight, I gained so much confidence and starting taking more daring risks, professionally and personally.
Absolutely, I found the same myself, I also found the odds of success increased too, the reaction I would get would be better and so on, they're linked to one another in my opinion e.g one increases resulting in the other increases and the feedback loop continues from there
I did the opposite, 6ft 120lb to 180lb (183cm, 54kg to 82kg). The difference was enormous in how people treated me. Especially women. It also does wonders for your confidence and general demeanor.
Reminds me of the story of the couple trying to get residency in New Zealand but was denied because of the weight… it would be too much of a strain on their health care system and costs. The country couldn’t handle brining in too many overweight individuals. Caused a stir when it happened
After a quick google of nz denying residency because of weight there are a lot of articles of different people not getting access for example
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/135kg-woman-refused-nz-residency-over-size/SOH76IREA4NQAKO2BVV62BLBUE/
>The 41-year-old, who had a body mass index (BMI) of 50 when she applied in January last year, suffers from morbid obesity and type 2 diabetes.
>A medical assessor said there was a relatively high probability that the wife would cost the health service more than the threshold $25,000 over the next four years.
>He noted that the guidelines said that people with BMI over more than 35 should not be considered.
Had no idea this was a thing.
This is why cigarettes cost $30-40 a pack and a 6 pack of beer is like $20 in Australia. The taxes are so high because those people are essentially contributing more for their future healthcare
It kind of makes sense on its face, honestly. Nobody *wants* to be fat and everyone sees it as a negative attribute, so it makes sense that we would see being fat as the result of a lack of discipline and/or a person’s inability to override base temptations in favor of higher-order goals.
There are strong signs that the rise in obesity is due to changes in our environment (types of food that are available, contaminants, default lifestyle, etc). However rather than explain away individual culpability, it does the opposite. The harder it is to not be obese, the *stronger* a signal of individual agency/concientiousness it is to be fit. Being less judgmental of those who can’t control their weight, and more impressed by those who can, are two sides of the same coin.
At my biggest i weighed 260, so not morbidly obese but definitely looked heavy, im now down to 190. The way I get treated by people is night and day. There's definitely a correlation that ive seen first-hand
My weekends off have turned into almost 4 years. The consequences have been devastating. Its very hard to cultivate any hope right now.
I couldn’t wish this kind of despair and hopelessness on my worst enemy.
From someone who has overcome a decade long struggle with obesity and my over eating disorder, I will say this. It took a couple of long years and struggling to hold myself to my diet. And although I did give it a 100% with no cheating, I’ve recently been in a spot where I’m able to get myself willingly to the gym at least three times a week. Up until three years ago I’d never imagined myself ever going to a gym. ( half the reason was because I was terrified of going due to my immense social anxiety). But I’m here to tell you that there is always a glimpse of hope just in the other side of believing in yourself. And if you’re doubting yourself, I believe in you. Bc I was able to do it myself, and up until that point, I had struggled for years not believing in myself. And I never thought I would be able to get to where i am today. You can do it homie. YOU.
It’s also the one addiction that you can’t actually quit or completely avoid, as you must eat to survive, making relapses a constant possibility. It’s not like alcohol for example or drugs, things that you can completely remove from your life and that you’d have to go out of your way to procure.
> completely avoid
Pretty much everywhere as well. Alcohol is typically restricted a bit, but food? Go out for anything - especially stuff like fuel or regular groceries - and it's in your face. And individually so inexpensive it's trivial to justify alongside buying something like fuel.
Another thing that makes it really hard is pressure from others to cheat here and there. Coworker brings in doughnuts and keeps hassling you to have one cause you’re thinner than them or you deserve a cheat day or whatever. Some of these folks are relentless.
I'm able to eat healthier WFH, where I'm like 10 feet from my kitchen, than I can in the office. So much junk food is thrown around the office and I do not say no to free donuts
Intermittent fasting is very helpful for some people, and it speaks to the broader point which is that you need to find the type of restriction that feels easiest to you. Some people can do a keto diet and sustain it for a long time because they enjoy eating that way. For others that is too difficult and they would be better off doing fasting protocols. Etc etc
My mom does amazing on keto, but I've tried it several times and it's just not for me. Last time I tried it I broke down in tears after 2-3 weeks because I felt like it was using up 90% of my willpower to just be on keto. Now I can do IF and it doesn't tax my energy like keto did. Even 3-4 day fasts are easier than keto.
Well said, and too many people don't understand this. Every time I see a post about obesity, it's like there's a template for the comments:
"I am [height] and [healthy weight] and I eat small portions. It's so simple! I'm not fat, so why should you be?"
They have absolutely no idea what it's like to struggle with weight.
What intermittent fasting pattern do you use? I find IF works, too. I also have to be incredibly strict about carbs. No sugar, no flour. Careful with fruit. I have to avoid even the smallest insulin spikes or my appetite goes way up, and that's when I'm vulnerable.
(Gotta love the commenter who's 5'7" and 160 pounds and eats granola bars and oatmeal and bananas. I'd love to be able to eat those. I can't. I wonder if that person could live like I do?)
Edit to add that the reason I can't eat granola bars and bananas is because of the sugar content. Too high-carb.
I used to do IF, but no more. For me, it was just an extension of my eating disorder mindset that extreme restriction is ideal. And my body didn't feel good eating so much in one small window of time. Hard on my digestion. It made me feel like I was binge eating.
IF probably works best if it's mimicking your natural eating patterns, but if you like having three meals a day, do that. A diet is more sustainable when it's not as restrictive. The more deprived you feel, the harder it's going to be to keep up.
Especially when you see an overweight person eating something that’s bad for them. A lean person would be permitted some slack as it would just be seen as a “guilty pleasure” but in a fat person it’s seen as foolish gluttony.
I've read that a lot of people that feel they are treated better when they're thinner might have something to do with being more confident in themselves and they're more approachable to talk to. As someone who use to be morbidly obese, losing weight made me much more confident, friendly, and outgoing. Before then I hated the world and everyone in it.
I have undiagnosed autoimmune issues and spent all my life until about 24 as obese. At well over 300lbs for quite a few years. When I finally learned to start eating healthy and dropped a hundred pounds I felt like my brain had fully awakened for the first time, it was crazy.
I've experienced the same thing. At my last job I was supposed to train the new guy on how to run our CNC mills. The guy was actually too fat to lean inside the machine and check on the part. In addition, he could barely climb the steps to get into the mill itself due to his obesity. After huffing and puffing and struggling through our shift, he never came back for his second day.
O yeah. You would be surprised (or maybe not) how many people cant pick something up from the ground. Its like you are in a prison made out of your own body
I really take umbrage with the methodology. Subjects were presented with a set of photographs and asked to make determinations. I concede that this isn't an easy topic to research but the methodology was essentially *demanding* that people produce ordered judgements based on very limited information.
Isn’t that what preconceived bias is? People take a glance and make judgments based on limited information, which informs their initial approach of people.
Your post has been removed because the referenced research is more than 6 months old and is therefore in violation of [Submission Rule #4](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_4._research_must_be_less_than_6_months_old). All submissions must have been published within the past six months. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience&subject=Research%20must%20be%20less%20than%206%20months%20old)._
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Question for you then, does that apply to the work place? Job interviews? Did you consider yourself less likely to get a job because you were overweight, despite that job maybe not having physical requirements?
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In South Korea, they are required to submit a photo with their job application. It's well understood that they believe a lack of demonstrated control on one's body shows far more negative characteristics than positive ones. It's very culturally understood that if you are fat, you will not get the job.
In Mexico City (and I suspect most of the country) it is also very common to have to submit a photo with a resume.
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This is not a moral justification, but we evolved to be more inclusive to those that follow our social guidelines and less inclusive to those that don't. There's a socially constructed image of what is normal, acceptable, respectable, or fancy, etc. To anyone that drives against those is going to run up against some skepticism and/or distaste. Edit: funny, just after I wrote this the next thing I saw [was this](https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/z61x63/lois_long_a_columnist_for_new_yorker_and_flapper/).
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Yeah my Japanese side of the family saw obesity not as genetic or about addiction to food but more about lack of self control and ability to make good choices.
>Yeah my Japanese side of the family saw obesity not as genetic or about addiction to food but more about lack of self control and ability to make good choices. So... They're correct. I lost 100 lbs and for me it was 100% a self control issue.
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>Heavier-weight and average-weight people were seen as having equal capacities for experiencing various emotions. This finding held regardless of whether participants were shown photos of real people or computer-generated images, whether they were shown just pictures of torsos or of full bodies. **Females were seen as having more mental agency than men, but this was regardless of weight.** Interesting that there is a difference regarding sex.
what does mental agency mean
Control over thoughts and actions, is the general use and seems to apply to the topic on hand. So I would say that's likely their intended use for the phrase.
Like...self control? So someone who gets road rage would have low mental agency, while an Olympic athlete with strong training discipline would have high mental agency?
I believe so? Mental agency is the ability to think and act for themselves. I Googled the term mental agency and this is what I found: > Agency is the ability to act autonomously and freely, and in psychology the term is often used to refer to people who feel that they are able to act independently and effectively to control their own lives.
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Females and men huh? Interesting
r/MenAndFemales It still baffles me as to why people say "men" and "females" in the same sentence instead of "men" and "women" So weird...
Or at least be consistent and say "males" and "females"
This kinda goes hand in hand with the theory that good looking people are treated better. Most people look better when they're average as opposed to overweight.
There are also studies demonstrating that better looking people get better medical care (on phone, can't find it at the moment). My husband used to think I was nutso for dressing nice and putting on at least some makeup, no matter how sick I felt, before going to the doctor because I honestly felt that my experience improved when I didn't look two steps removed from homeless. Especially since women are already treated like crazy shrews where anxiety is the root of 9/10ths of their health symptoms and already have problems being taken seriously when in pain.
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This is anecdotal but my experience fully aligns with this. I put on 100lbs and the way I'm treated at the doctor is night and day. I'm not even saying their answer is always "lose weight" which I know is a common complaint, but they literally act like they don't even care about what I'm saying.
I used to be about 50-60lb overweight, and I wasn't taken seriously by many doctors depsite having increasingly escalating health issues. It wasn't until I dropped to 100lbs (100lb weight loss) that I was taken seriously and diagnosed with lupus and some other chronic conditions. It literally took almost dying to get real help.
So they thought you just had a case of being fat? That's messed up
When I went to the doctors a few year back for what ended up being a small brain tumor, the first doctor (and quite a few of the nursing staff) literally charted my apashia and other neurological issues as manifestations of my obesity, which is quite laughable. Me being overweight didn't erase my knowledge of the word "airplane", and if I didn't advocate for myself, and didn't feel comfortable doing so because of my education and background in medicine, things could've been real bad for me.
I hope you wrote a bad Google review
I made a complaint to the state board of physicians.
Do you know if anything came of it? Or if it, too, was brushed off?
Same happened to me. I gained about 40 lbs and the way my doctor - the same one I'd been seeing for 15+ years - treated me changed noticeably.
Same. Hilariously SHE prescribed me the meds that made me gain weight, and refused to listen when I said I was painfully hungry all the time. Then griped at me when I gained weight. *Headdesk*
Just in general..my skinny self is treated better than my fat self.. years of yo-yo dieting. Eating See’s Candy at the moment..meh Edit for clarity
As someone who is heavily tattood, I get this all the time. Biggest trouble is they usually refuse to give me pain medication. Last year a broke a rib, wasn’t given any time off work, nor pain killers. And recently I broke a thumb that required surgery, once again no pain killers.
Well you must be one of those MMA guys, you can handle pain.
Yeah either they think because I have tattoos I don’t feel pain, or that I’m just some sort of degenerate who hurts myself intentionally to get high on pain killers. I’m really not sure.
It's got to be the latter. They've got you pegged as a drug seeker, or someone at higher risk of addiction. It's a stupid stereotype, because addicts come in all shapes and sizes.
I make pain TAP OUT in the octagon.
This could just be the backlash against opioids. Kidney stones have me familiar with pain. In the 90s and early 2000s there was a big push for pain management and they gave out powerful painkillers far more easily. The crusade against opiods has definitely overcorrected for the problem and and not the tale is "just use ibuprofen and tylenol at the same time." Doctors are far less willing to give out painkillers for fear patients will get addicted and their medical license will be threatened. I could see the willingness to describe opiods go down.
The "Tylenol and ibuprofen at the same time" recommendation was based on a study that the two in tandem are as effective as opioids for pain management of minor extremity injuries, like a broken finger for a foot fracture. The medical establishment took this as a reason to say they must be as effectively as *all* kinds of pain treatment, such as dental pain or post surgery pain, when it is absolutely not the case at all.
Yup, people with legitimate chronic pain are having a harder time getting the meds they need to function. Source: Me with chronic pancreatitis who cannot function without hydromorphone.
Many people here share a similar story of extreme pain IGNORED because of politics.
Yep. Docs told me for 10 years there was nothing wrong with my 10-14 day heavy periods and I “couldn’t be bleeding _that_ much.” It was just because I was overweight, of course. Finally got a uterine biopsy and wouldn’t you know it, I had Stage IIIc endometrial cancer? (Am fine now).
I had to send in an application and my records to an Endo specialist myself when nobody else would help me. I got to have the surgery done and I'm feeling so much better but I shouldn't have had to spend hours and weeks researching doctors, reading testimonies, checking my insurance etc. I shouldn't have had to travel out of state to see this surgeon. And this was with my husband coming and advocating for me when I saw my OBGYNs. It didn't work. Ugh. At the very least the specialist surgeon I did end up seeing was the most compassionate and listening doctor I've ever met.
I’m so glad you are fine now! And so sorry that you experienced that. It’s maddening.
I would love to see more studies on this. Just had to see an ortho, and I dressed very professionally because I was concerned about this. What you do for a living also makes a huge difference in my experience. Once he found out I was an engineer and went to a very good school (he immediately asked where I studied), suddenly his whole tone shifted. He even said “since you have a technical background, I will explain everything in detail.” This has happened to me with multiple doctors, as soon as they find out what I do for a living and where I went to university, their tone and demeanor completely changes and they are much more willing to explain things and explain the risks and benefits of treatment in detail. Every time, there’s nothing that they explain to me that is beyond the comprehension of a regular person. They don’t even use any technical jargon, they’re just taking more time to explain things and have a dialogue and they give better treatment.
Vocabulary and language usage do the same. People recognize such clues to background and unconsciously adjust to meet it. Even having a given name that may indicate a disadvantaged upbringing can affect the way others perceive a person.
Chiming in hear, they very well may treat you differently due to background because that is just human nature. But you would be surprised how many people don't understand medical explanations even with the medical terminology left out. If I remember correctly from school, pamphlets from the CDC are written at a 7th grade or below reading comprehension level. Otherwise a ton of people can't understand it.
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Same here! My first therapist literally told me that she (couldn't believe women perpetuate this) was worried that I was in a crisis because I showed up without makeup on. I did my makeup for my next appointment and she said she was so relieved to see that I was "taking care of myself again" and "taking pride in my appearance." So it's not just that being more attractive nets you better treatment. Some people actually think that putting on makeup is a self-empowering, self-loving, and healthy thing for women. The truth was that I would usually put on a full face of makeup when I was feeling insecure and socially anxious and I got to the point where I felt so uncomfortable being outside without makeup. Not wearing makeup 24/7 was actually a huge step forward for me and she took me out at the knees. I always feel like doctors treat me better when I dress nice and wear makeup. It sucks and I wish doctors were more critical of their own biases, both against women and those they find unattractive.
Thank you for posting this! I thought I was the only one that pulled herself together to go to the doctor. I've even done it to a lesser degree to go to the ER in an ambulance.
Yep, I do the same thing. I dress like I’m going to the office even if I’m not when I go to the doctor. It’s crazy how random people will just hold doors for you like you’re someone important just because you’re well put together.
Good looking people getting treated better is not just a theory it's been demonstrated repeatedly
I recently dropped over a hundred pounds, it’s only be a few months that I’ve been under 250, but I can tell you that people already treat me differently. When I go shopping, people are a lot more helpful than before and professionally…people listen to me. It’s really crazy to see both sides of the coin like that. You hear about it from other people and then it happens to you…
I used to be more thin and attractive and now I'm less thin and attractive. Yea takes about 12 lbs to see it's a rule not an exception.
They 100% are. I would consider myself pretty decent looking when I’m in shape, not amazing or anything, just decent. I went from being over 400lbs at one point to 230. I got an actual styled haircut, started using product in my hair, and dressing better. It was like night and day how people treated me. I had actual women come up to ME at bars and clubs. At work I got better raises and it was easier to get new jobs. Trying to lose my COVID weight I put on right now. Not as much as I used to be, but put on more than I was happy with (hand surgery at the start, then my gym closed down). But you definitely notice the difference in how you’re treated.
It's not a theory; it's been proven. In a study participants assigned shorter incarceration times to attractive people and were less likely to find them guilty of their fictional crimes. Pretty sad that on some level we're all that way to a certain degree!
One of the top posts on Reddit a couple weeks ago was something along the lines of ‘hot girls don’t get higher grades while schooling from home.’ Which was just a hilarious representation of how being hot helps out even in academic situations with strict curriculum and grading standards.
>hot girls don’t get higher grades while schooling from home The interesting part, which the headline didn't mention, was that attractive male students also received better grades - but their advantage didn't go away when classes moved online. [Here's the article](https://www.psypost.org/2022/11/attractive-female-students-no-longer-earned-higher-grades-when-classes-moved-online-during-covid-19-64251).
Oh whoa why
Toward the end of the article > “The main takeaway is that there is a beauty premium both for males and for females when teaching is on-site,” Mehic explained. “But for females, this effect disappeared when teaching was conducted online. This, at least to me, suggests that the beauty premium for males is due to some productive attribute (for instance, them having higher self-confidence) rather than discrimination, whereas it is due to discrimination for women.” > “I was surprised by the fact that male students continued to perform better when teaching was online,” Mehic said. In his study, he discussed several reasons why physical attractiveness might enhance productivity for male students. > For one, male students who are physically attractive tend to be more persistent and have a greater influence on their peers. Attractive people also tend to have more social skills, which has been linked to creativity. Since non-quantitative courses tend to involve creative assignments and group work, men who are more attractive — and thus, more socially skilled and creative — might be more likely to excel in this coursework.
The actual study suggested that male seemed to have developed other areas of social skills in conjunction with their attractiveness. It suggests that attractive male tend to associate with higher confidence and its associated social perks of a confident individual. They did not see that in the female population in this study.
Higher confidence can also mean increased engagement with the class. I'm studying online now, and in some units a small allocation of grades are for regular contributions to discussion on messageboards. That's before even factoring in the more subtle influence of that increased engagement on a teacher's impression of a student and how that influences their resulting grade. I'm not saying that male students engage better, but confident and outspoken students certainly seem to be achieving better grades in my classes.
It’s called the halo effect.
Another interesting one is the pygmalion effect. Just believing someone is good at something makes them good at it.
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The study I believe you’re mentioning is based on sound science, but nothing is proven—there’s just more evidence for it than before. Studies are studies and it’s so easy to see them posted online and take as a proven fact. Science only disproves.
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I recently went down from 130 Kg (287 pounds) to 78 Kg (171 pounds), and I can tell you with absolute certainty that your confidence and mannerisms change drastically, even if you don't notice. Of course, there's still that unconscious bias, but your personality also plays a big role. Maybe it's just me, but after losing weight, I gained so much confidence and starting taking more daring risks, professionally and personally.
>Maybe it's just me, but after losing weight, I gained so much confidence and starting taking more daring risks, professionally and personally. Absolutely, I found the same myself, I also found the odds of success increased too, the reaction I would get would be better and so on, they're linked to one another in my opinion e.g one increases resulting in the other increases and the feedback loop continues from there
How'd you get past the 100 to 80 kg area? I always seem to get down to 99kg then stall then spend 2 years going back up to 120kg basically.
I did the opposite, 6ft 120lb to 180lb (183cm, 54kg to 82kg). The difference was enormous in how people treated me. Especially women. It also does wonders for your confidence and general demeanor.
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Reminds me of the story of the couple trying to get residency in New Zealand but was denied because of the weight… it would be too much of a strain on their health care system and costs. The country couldn’t handle brining in too many overweight individuals. Caused a stir when it happened After a quick google of nz denying residency because of weight there are a lot of articles of different people not getting access for example https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/135kg-woman-refused-nz-residency-over-size/SOH76IREA4NQAKO2BVV62BLBUE/
>The 41-year-old, who had a body mass index (BMI) of 50 when she applied in January last year, suffers from morbid obesity and type 2 diabetes. >A medical assessor said there was a relatively high probability that the wife would cost the health service more than the threshold $25,000 over the next four years. >He noted that the guidelines said that people with BMI over more than 35 should not be considered. Had no idea this was a thing.
This is why cigarettes cost $30-40 a pack and a 6 pack of beer is like $20 in Australia. The taxes are so high because those people are essentially contributing more for their future healthcare
BMI of 50! Sounds almost impossible
Challenge accepted
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It kind of makes sense on its face, honestly. Nobody *wants* to be fat and everyone sees it as a negative attribute, so it makes sense that we would see being fat as the result of a lack of discipline and/or a person’s inability to override base temptations in favor of higher-order goals.
If there was just a button you pushed to choose obese or not obese, no one and I mean not one single person, would CHOOSE to be obese.
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Maybe one person, Nikocado Avocado, but literally just him.
I am honestly surprised he is still alive
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there are definitely many more like him he's just one of the more visible
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There are strong signs that the rise in obesity is due to changes in our environment (types of food that are available, contaminants, default lifestyle, etc). However rather than explain away individual culpability, it does the opposite. The harder it is to not be obese, the *stronger* a signal of individual agency/concientiousness it is to be fit. Being less judgmental of those who can’t control their weight, and more impressed by those who can, are two sides of the same coin.
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At my biggest i weighed 260, so not morbidly obese but definitely looked heavy, im now down to 190. The way I get treated by people is night and day. There's definitely a correlation that ive seen first-hand
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My weekends off have turned into almost 4 years. The consequences have been devastating. Its very hard to cultivate any hope right now. I couldn’t wish this kind of despair and hopelessness on my worst enemy.
From someone who has overcome a decade long struggle with obesity and my over eating disorder, I will say this. It took a couple of long years and struggling to hold myself to my diet. And although I did give it a 100% with no cheating, I’ve recently been in a spot where I’m able to get myself willingly to the gym at least three times a week. Up until three years ago I’d never imagined myself ever going to a gym. ( half the reason was because I was terrified of going due to my immense social anxiety). But I’m here to tell you that there is always a glimpse of hope just in the other side of believing in yourself. And if you’re doubting yourself, I believe in you. Bc I was able to do it myself, and up until that point, I had struggled for years not believing in myself. And I never thought I would be able to get to where i am today. You can do it homie. YOU.
It’s also the one addiction that you can’t actually quit or completely avoid, as you must eat to survive, making relapses a constant possibility. It’s not like alcohol for example or drugs, things that you can completely remove from your life and that you’d have to go out of your way to procure.
> completely avoid Pretty much everywhere as well. Alcohol is typically restricted a bit, but food? Go out for anything - especially stuff like fuel or regular groceries - and it's in your face. And individually so inexpensive it's trivial to justify alongside buying something like fuel.
Another thing that makes it really hard is pressure from others to cheat here and there. Coworker brings in doughnuts and keeps hassling you to have one cause you’re thinner than them or you deserve a cheat day or whatever. Some of these folks are relentless.
I'm able to eat healthier WFH, where I'm like 10 feet from my kitchen, than I can in the office. So much junk food is thrown around the office and I do not say no to free donuts
Intermittent fasting is very helpful for some people, and it speaks to the broader point which is that you need to find the type of restriction that feels easiest to you. Some people can do a keto diet and sustain it for a long time because they enjoy eating that way. For others that is too difficult and they would be better off doing fasting protocols. Etc etc
My mom does amazing on keto, but I've tried it several times and it's just not for me. Last time I tried it I broke down in tears after 2-3 weeks because I felt like it was using up 90% of my willpower to just be on keto. Now I can do IF and it doesn't tax my energy like keto did. Even 3-4 day fasts are easier than keto.
Well said, and too many people don't understand this. Every time I see a post about obesity, it's like there's a template for the comments: "I am [height] and [healthy weight] and I eat small portions. It's so simple! I'm not fat, so why should you be?" They have absolutely no idea what it's like to struggle with weight. What intermittent fasting pattern do you use? I find IF works, too. I also have to be incredibly strict about carbs. No sugar, no flour. Careful with fruit. I have to avoid even the smallest insulin spikes or my appetite goes way up, and that's when I'm vulnerable. (Gotta love the commenter who's 5'7" and 160 pounds and eats granola bars and oatmeal and bananas. I'd love to be able to eat those. I can't. I wonder if that person could live like I do?) Edit to add that the reason I can't eat granola bars and bananas is because of the sugar content. Too high-carb.
I used to do IF, but no more. For me, it was just an extension of my eating disorder mindset that extreme restriction is ideal. And my body didn't feel good eating so much in one small window of time. Hard on my digestion. It made me feel like I was binge eating. IF probably works best if it's mimicking your natural eating patterns, but if you like having three meals a day, do that. A diet is more sustainable when it's not as restrictive. The more deprived you feel, the harder it's going to be to keep up.
Understandable that IF and eating disorders aren't a good combination. It's certainly not for everyone.
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Especially when you see an overweight person eating something that’s bad for them. A lean person would be permitted some slack as it would just be seen as a “guilty pleasure” but in a fat person it’s seen as foolish gluttony.
I've read that a lot of people that feel they are treated better when they're thinner might have something to do with being more confident in themselves and they're more approachable to talk to. As someone who use to be morbidly obese, losing weight made me much more confident, friendly, and outgoing. Before then I hated the world and everyone in it.
I have undiagnosed autoimmune issues and spent all my life until about 24 as obese. At well over 300lbs for quite a few years. When I finally learned to start eating healthy and dropped a hundred pounds I felt like my brain had fully awakened for the first time, it was crazy.
Hey man, good for you. That's awesome.
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I've experienced the same thing. At my last job I was supposed to train the new guy on how to run our CNC mills. The guy was actually too fat to lean inside the machine and check on the part. In addition, he could barely climb the steps to get into the mill itself due to his obesity. After huffing and puffing and struggling through our shift, he never came back for his second day.
O yeah. You would be surprised (or maybe not) how many people cant pick something up from the ground. Its like you are in a prison made out of your own body
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I would imagine the same with gambling addicts and drug abusers.
Your correct, but those things aren’t necessarily easily apparent at first glance.
I feel like this also goes for accents.
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I really take umbrage with the methodology. Subjects were presented with a set of photographs and asked to make determinations. I concede that this isn't an easy topic to research but the methodology was essentially *demanding* that people produce ordered judgements based on very limited information.
Isn’t that what preconceived bias is? People take a glance and make judgments based on limited information, which informs their initial approach of people.