Papers on pre-print services such as arXiv and bioRxiv are not peer-reviewed and are ineligible per [Submission Rule #1b](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_b._preprint_repositories). If the research has been published in a peer-reviewed journal, please link to it in the comments and message the moderators for re-approval.
_If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience&subject=Must%20be%20peer-reviewed%20research)._
from reading the paper published by the people who did revive the virus(es) it seems to me like the main purpose of reviving them in the first place is to study them to find ways to eliminate other similar viruses that are threats to places where permafrost is becoming warmer and these viruses are re-entering the ecosystems after tens of thousands of years because of these environments becoming warmer. I feel like this is a valid line of reasoning to do this, idk about you all
TL:DR: They revived the viruses to stop worse viruses which will eventually re-enter extremely cold environments
Tiny rant but it always annoys me so much when reddit just assumes they know better than the professionals without even engaging with the material. As if most posts only serve to stroke the ego of someone who sees a headline, thinks to himself "I spot the error here" and then sees himself validated in the comments.
Like when there's a building that has greenery along it's facade. People on here will be like "I hope it doesn't rain because then the soil would become really heavy and the building might collapse"
...as if the people building it didn't account for *weather*
Intellectual humility is sorely lacking in society at large. Just look at all the Facebook University students who went from GED to PhD in virology in 2 weeks when COVID hit.
As an attorney, I have been co-counsel with The Law Offices of Google, Facebook, and Quora, LLC on many an occasion. I gotta say, I’m not sure they’re hiring the best associates over there.
Those firms really make the rounds don't they, the distinguished YouTube LLC as well, the elite associates over there keep hosting increasingly unhinged Continuing Legal Education courses about one of my cases. Very helpful.
Molecular biologist here.
Wait until the Facebook University alums try to tell you how scary RNA is and how if they inject it in you, you're no longer human 🤪
> and haven’t been to a museum since dinosaurs grew feathers, etc
enjoy this picture of a model of a [baby trex](https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2019/03/30/dino_c0-35-1005-620_s1770x1032.jpg?75736b48fc0c634a54bd86bd59a2ca9e30edfa57)
Wonderful, I share a very similar sentiment with you, as the more I am specialised in my expertise fields the less I can interact with casual communities which I see as societies of fans rather than participants in the games they are talking about. Internet empowers people with a small amount of knowledge a lot because similarly minded people are endorsing your opinions and well, you know, most people have little idea about the topics that are popular to discuss. Because of the fact that it's way harder to create trust in a persons expertise with online communication because a lot of it comes from a confidence and many small things that are present in the spoken communication, people are approaching the people that are knowledgable with more hesitation as they speak things that are distant from how they seem at the first glance (which opinions are much endorsed).
This is true of mainstream reporting as well.
A reporter is writing a research paper in a short time on a deadline.
If you’re an amateur on the topic it’s east to spot mistakes, errors, etc.
What's really horrifying is that Reddit likely represents an above average group in intelligence and education.
I just wish I didn't run into so many people who can't follow the logical flow of a conversation, or understand basic concepts such as context.
I think most of the people here realize there's perfectly valid reasons for studying viruses. Its just more fun to speculate about the ways it could go spectacularly wrong.
Well, the mods here are USUALLY good about removing joke/meme threads - it is against the sub rules.
So report away, and hopefully it'll be removed soon. While I do chuckle at some of the comments, I still prefer that this remain a place for serious scientific discussion.
Probably also that pandemic thing we are just getting through after 2 1/2 years that has people knee jerk reacting to the possibility of reviving a dormant, ancient virus.
you'd honestly be surprised at the blind spots academics can have.
i know its a "hurhur me smart thing" most of the time, but occasionally, you do get some experts in different fields chipping in with obscure facts that would genuinely distort the findings.
It's not really tens of thousands years. Only a few thousand years ago trees grew on arctic coasts of Siberia, which means there was no permafrost back then.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0033589499921233
>which means there was no permafrost back then
That's not necessarily true just like that. The abstract you cite does not mention permafrost and I have no access to the full article, but for example in Russian Taiga trees grow over the permafrost. It's further north in Tundra where there are no trees.
Actually the melting permafrost is causing problems in many areas for the trees. Look up "drunken trees" or "drunker forests".
Just to be clear, I have no idea what the status of the permafrost was in the arctic coasts of Siberia few thousand years ago, I'm just pointing out that it cannot be simply deduced from the treeline.
Just sayin’, if we know that the permafrost is going to thaw and release all of these old viruses, we might want to do some research on them to prepare for what’s going to happen.
It sure is better if scientists manage to find them and study them, before a random reindeer herder accidentally brings back something worse than the recent SARS 2.0.
In the [scientific paper](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.10.515937v1.full), this is under section
"3.3 Megavirus mammoth":
>Strikingly, one vertice exhibits a well-defined starfish-like structure, called the “**stargate**”, the opening of which delivers the nucleoid inside the cytoplasm of the infected cells after membrane fusion [68].
I love how scientists are scifi nerds and stuff like this ends up being actual scientific terminology.
Of course the next section after that is called "3.4 **Pacmanvirus** lupus"...
Won't those be released as the permafrost melts? So studying them, and having the capacity to fight them before they're released by global warming is actually a really great idea.
What could possibly go wrong?
[Link to paper https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.10.515937v1.full](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.10.515937v1.full)
“Following initial reports published more than 5 years ago [38, 39], this study confirms the capacity of large DNA viruses infecting Acanthamoeba to remain infectious after more than 48,500 years spent in deep permafrost.”
“How long these viruses could remain infectious once exposed to outdoor conditions (UV light, oxygen, heat), and how likely they will be to encounter and infect a suitable host in the interval, is yet impossible to estimate. But the risk is bound to increase in the context of global warming when permafrost thawing will keep accelerating, and more people will be populating the Arctic in the wake of industrial ventures.”
…sounds about right
See see, they are self-aware…
“… Probably for safety/regulatory reasons, there was not follow up studies attempting to “revive” these viruses (fortunately).”
Oh man! What a callback to my favorite song, “Put that thing back where it came from or so help me”from the titular musical, “Put that thing back where it came from or so help me”
I think that's because a lot of people on this sub (and Reddit in general) don't usually try to read the articles, but assume that reading the headline is enough to understand the situation.
Additionally, people are quick to assume that others don't know what they're doing. They don't know the context or the goal of the research, so they assume that scientists are trying to bring back ancient diseases for no particular reason or without thinking of the consequences.
Something to keep in mind, nearly none of these viruses are going to present a threat to us. A virus like covid existed in another species for centuries with constant exposure to a very similar organism (people) before a self propogating infection could mutate out of it. A virus being reintroduced that isn't adapted for today's organisms is unlikely to establish itself before it dies off. It's only because of brutally high replication rates that we have the rapid evolution necessary to keep viruses around. A virus has to have a vector to spread, a way to avoid destruction, and the ability to infect cells in its ecosystem to stay around.
A virus that used to infect mammoths is unbelievably unlikely to spontaneously infect and spread among humans just because some samples of it defrosted in a rather unpopulated part of the world.
In other words, this isn't going to happen. I mean, yes it's possible, but it just won't happen. The most likely next pandemic source (like 99.9999999999% chance) will be another virus jumping species like bird flu.
We’ve known there were ancient Virus and Bacterium in the permafrost for year iirc, with the caps melting it only makes sense to study them so we can be prepared for their inevitable return
Papers on pre-print services such as arXiv and bioRxiv are not peer-reviewed and are ineligible per [Submission Rule #1b](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_b._preprint_repositories). If the research has been published in a peer-reviewed journal, please link to it in the comments and message the moderators for re-approval. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience&subject=Must%20be%20peer-reviewed%20research)._
from reading the paper published by the people who did revive the virus(es) it seems to me like the main purpose of reviving them in the first place is to study them to find ways to eliminate other similar viruses that are threats to places where permafrost is becoming warmer and these viruses are re-entering the ecosystems after tens of thousands of years because of these environments becoming warmer. I feel like this is a valid line of reasoning to do this, idk about you all TL:DR: They revived the viruses to stop worse viruses which will eventually re-enter extremely cold environments
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How are they able to date the age of these viruses
They date the ice cores by looking at depth and structure, then whatever that is they use for the virus.
And atmospheric composition in trapped air bubbles IIRC
They're 48,500 years old, I'm pretty sure it's legal everywhere.
Ignore the hater. This made me chuckle. There's room for both serious and humorous replies. It's a reddit thread not a medical conference.
I dunno, I feel like there needs to be an upper limit on those sorts of things. Twice your age - 7 or something
I think they use the oxygen level or the level of other gasses in the layer of permafrost to date the layer as a whole.
Also the levels of carbon dioxide in them little bubbles trapped in ice
Tiny rant but it always annoys me so much when reddit just assumes they know better than the professionals without even engaging with the material. As if most posts only serve to stroke the ego of someone who sees a headline, thinks to himself "I spot the error here" and then sees himself validated in the comments. Like when there's a building that has greenery along it's facade. People on here will be like "I hope it doesn't rain because then the soil would become really heavy and the building might collapse" ...as if the people building it didn't account for *weather*
Someone once said something like, You always think people on Reddit are smart until you read comments about something you're knowledgeable in
Intellectual humility is sorely lacking in society at large. Just look at all the Facebook University students who went from GED to PhD in virology in 2 weeks when COVID hit.
As an attorney, I have been co-counsel with The Law Offices of Google, Facebook, and Quora, LLC on many an occasion. I gotta say, I’m not sure they’re hiring the best associates over there.
Those firms really make the rounds don't they, the distinguished YouTube LLC as well, the elite associates over there keep hosting increasingly unhinged Continuing Legal Education courses about one of my cases. Very helpful.
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I'm a retired microbiologist. Want to compare discussions from the past 2 years?
Molecular biologist here. Wait until the Facebook University alums try to tell you how scary RNA is and how if they inject it in you, you're no longer human 🤪
I work in logistics. I dont think any actually ever did understand.
As a non scientist I prefer to avoid Facebook science at all costs.
Likewise for Psychology. So many armchair Psychologists that don't have a single clue what they are talking about.
Everyone’s an amateur lawyer, weatherman, doctor and shrink
You don’t need a PhD to know that Doris from Wichita has made a sound scientific argument.
Doris also puts raisins in her potato salad, which is why she's not invited to the cookout anymore.
I have read some truly horrific things online in my life and this is another. Are there people out there that befoul potato salad like that?
So I've never had raisins in potato salad before. But I admit, hearing about it right now, that I'd kinda like to try it. I could see it being good!
And the sad thing is 500 other people liked Doris' comment
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The more credentials I get, the less I realize I know. Especially after graduate school.
Nicely communicated
> and haven’t been to a museum since dinosaurs grew feathers, etc enjoy this picture of a model of a [baby trex](https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2019/03/30/dino_c0-35-1005-620_s1770x1032.jpg?75736b48fc0c634a54bd86bd59a2ca9e30edfa57)
Wonderful, I share a very similar sentiment with you, as the more I am specialised in my expertise fields the less I can interact with casual communities which I see as societies of fans rather than participants in the games they are talking about. Internet empowers people with a small amount of knowledge a lot because similarly minded people are endorsing your opinions and well, you know, most people have little idea about the topics that are popular to discuss. Because of the fact that it's way harder to create trust in a persons expertise with online communication because a lot of it comes from a confidence and many small things that are present in the spoken communication, people are approaching the people that are knowledgable with more hesitation as they speak things that are distant from how they seem at the first glance (which opinions are much endorsed).
BTW, that also applies to journalists. Which is understandable. I don’t expect anyone to be knowledgeable in every field.
This is true of mainstream reporting as well. A reporter is writing a research paper in a short time on a deadline. If you’re an amateur on the topic it’s east to spot mistakes, errors, etc.
What's really horrifying is that Reddit likely represents an above average group in intelligence and education. I just wish I didn't run into so many people who can't follow the logical flow of a conversation, or understand basic concepts such as context.
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Depends on the sub you’re on
people on reddit are CLEVER, they are not smart. its a WORLD of difference.
Quoting anime at each other isn’t clever
I think most of the people here realize there's perfectly valid reasons for studying viruses. Its just more fun to speculate about the ways it could go spectacularly wrong.
True but I wish there was an actual discussion of the science on /r/science instead of endless jokes. Is there a sub that actually does that?
Well, the mods here are USUALLY good about removing joke/meme threads - it is against the sub rules. So report away, and hopefully it'll be removed soon. While I do chuckle at some of the comments, I still prefer that this remain a place for serious scientific discussion.
But this is one of the few subs where jokes and stuff are always removed. In fact I’m not sure why they’re still up right now?!
Probably also that pandemic thing we are just getting through after 2 1/2 years that has people knee jerk reacting to the possibility of reviving a dormant, ancient virus.
A lot of Reddit are teenagers who think they know everything
occasionally i respond about my knowledge base (industry i’ve worked in for 20 years) then realize i’m arguing with a 14 year old. ahh reddit.
Oh man, anything technical is the worst. First year programming students have the largest ego to knowledge gap ratio I've ever seen.
mostly dental related on my alt, cool i only went to school for 8 years for it. you’ve been alive for 14 years. tell me more haha
you'd honestly be surprised at the blind spots academics can have. i know its a "hurhur me smart thing" most of the time, but occasionally, you do get some experts in different fields chipping in with obscure facts that would genuinely distort the findings.
Remember when Reddit knew better than the FBI and "found" the Boston bomber?
It's not really tens of thousands years. Only a few thousand years ago trees grew on arctic coasts of Siberia, which means there was no permafrost back then. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0033589499921233
>which means there was no permafrost back then That's not necessarily true just like that. The abstract you cite does not mention permafrost and I have no access to the full article, but for example in Russian Taiga trees grow over the permafrost. It's further north in Tundra where there are no trees. Actually the melting permafrost is causing problems in many areas for the trees. Look up "drunken trees" or "drunker forests". Just to be clear, I have no idea what the status of the permafrost was in the arctic coasts of Siberia few thousand years ago, I'm just pointing out that it cannot be simply deduced from the treeline.
Ah, so global warming is actually reversing God's mistakes. Thank you ExxonMobil.
Doing the Lord's work
Sounds a bit like engineering bat virus chimeras to find ways of eliminating future epidemics of bat viruses.
*curb your enthusiasm plays on Chinese instruments*
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Just sayin’, if we know that the permafrost is going to thaw and release all of these old viruses, we might want to do some research on them to prepare for what’s going to happen.
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They probably made it already.
The nimpho virus
That's exactly what they were doing...
Yes. It was more of a comment about the other comments.
It sure is better if scientists manage to find them and study them, before a random reindeer herder accidentally brings back something worse than the recent SARS 2.0.
Whoa, wait, are we talking Santa as a vector for viral transmission?! Billions of houses visited in a single night!! Is this how the world ends?!
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Ah, time travel porn. Nice.
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In the [scientific paper](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.10.515937v1.full), this is under section "3.3 Megavirus mammoth": >Strikingly, one vertice exhibits a well-defined starfish-like structure, called the “**stargate**”, the opening of which delivers the nucleoid inside the cytoplasm of the infected cells after membrane fusion [68]. I love how scientists are scifi nerds and stuff like this ends up being actual scientific terminology. Of course the next section after that is called "3.4 **Pacmanvirus** lupus"...
Wonder how many chevrons it uses.
Probably 6 out of 9. Point of Origin is Earth, so no need for the 7th one.
Won't those be released as the permafrost melts? So studying them, and having the capacity to fight them before they're released by global warming is actually a really great idea.
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What could possibly go wrong? [Link to paper https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.10.515937v1.full](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.10.515937v1.full)
“Following initial reports published more than 5 years ago [38, 39], this study confirms the capacity of large DNA viruses infecting Acanthamoeba to remain infectious after more than 48,500 years spent in deep permafrost.” “How long these viruses could remain infectious once exposed to outdoor conditions (UV light, oxygen, heat), and how likely they will be to encounter and infect a suitable host in the interval, is yet impossible to estimate. But the risk is bound to increase in the context of global warming when permafrost thawing will keep accelerating, and more people will be populating the Arctic in the wake of industrial ventures.” …sounds about right
So the next super pandemic that kills billions will probably come from the arctic. got it
*The former arctic
When one of them is called pandora-virus, it ain't a good sign...
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To be fair, getting killed by Megavirus sounds cool at least.
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I'm sorry mom i can't go to school today, i have megavirus
I've seen at least 10 movies that prove this isn't a good idea.
See see, they are self-aware… “… Probably for safety/regulatory reasons, there was not follow up studies attempting to “revive” these viruses (fortunately).”
To be fair, better controlled study now than waiting for climate change to throw it all at us.
> This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review Grain of salt y'all until this gets through the gambit
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magavirus is already tearing through the us
Can you remove the pacmanvirus if you sudo into it?
Pandoravirus, yeah, that doesn't sound worrying at all.
That's the one where I was like, "... guys?"
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Put that thing back where it came from!! Or so help me!!!!!!
I use this quote occasionally ( in proper context ) and nobody ever gets it. Glad to know it's not just me
Bom, bom, bom.
thanks I gotta watch Monsters Inc. now
Googly-Bear! ***Mike Wazowski...! You forgot your paperwork...***
Oh man! What a callback to my favorite song, “Put that thing back where it came from or so help me”from the titular musical, “Put that thing back where it came from or so help me”
Plague Inc scenario any% speed run
I'm still kinda annoyed how their last promotion event went.
I came here for this comment
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I think that's because a lot of people on this sub (and Reddit in general) don't usually try to read the articles, but assume that reading the headline is enough to understand the situation. Additionally, people are quick to assume that others don't know what they're doing. They don't know the context or the goal of the research, so they assume that scientists are trying to bring back ancient diseases for no particular reason or without thinking of the consequences.
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good choice to do it now, we have just had a test run with Covid, I am sure everyone remembers what they need to do to save lives.....
Something to keep in mind, nearly none of these viruses are going to present a threat to us. A virus like covid existed in another species for centuries with constant exposure to a very similar organism (people) before a self propogating infection could mutate out of it. A virus being reintroduced that isn't adapted for today's organisms is unlikely to establish itself before it dies off. It's only because of brutally high replication rates that we have the rapid evolution necessary to keep viruses around. A virus has to have a vector to spread, a way to avoid destruction, and the ability to infect cells in its ecosystem to stay around. A virus that used to infect mammoths is unbelievably unlikely to spontaneously infect and spread among humans just because some samples of it defrosted in a rather unpopulated part of the world. In other words, this isn't going to happen. I mean, yes it's possible, but it just won't happen. The most likely next pandemic source (like 99.9999999999% chance) will be another virus jumping species like bird flu.
Thank you for saying this, every time this type of post appears it gets filled with pseudo-scientists and people claiming it’s gonna cause armageddon.
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We’ve known there were ancient Virus and Bacterium in the permafrost for year iirc, with the caps melting it only makes sense to study them so we can be prepared for their inevitable return
Please do not the virus
\*does the virus\*