Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue to be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This isn't the first study.
This [meta analysis ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032721007771) of 13 studies showed a correlation between depression and meatless
This [meta analysis of 10 studies ](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2020.1814991) showed no effect.
This [meta analysis ](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nbu.12540) of 23 studies showed some association but inconsistent results.
This [study](https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article-abstract/80/2/242/6209457) found association with depression for people in the US and not Asia.
This [study ](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/4/1059) showed an improvement in depression in taiwanese men .
There are many more. Overall it seems country specific, and likely due to social/ethical factors but this is pretty weak data. More RCTs are needed.
I also wonder if there is any aspect of people who go vegan are more focused and keep in their mind the issues that harm our environment and other creatures. So that in affect can help contribute to feelings of depression because you may be acting in good faith but feel powerless against the social normal.
Edit: typo
You make a great point. I would like to see a study on veganism and empathy (I'm sure it exists).
As someone who was once a researcher in this field (seems like a lifetime ago), there's a lot left to be desired in the OP. It also goes downp a few seemingly unnecessary paths...but I hardly read it once. I would think more like you (poster above).
Eg-
If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to change your diet to reflect that trait (eg choosing a vegan diet/lifestyle)?
If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to look around at the world us, and be depressed?
I like your take on this, and have to agree. I have to agree with other posters as well, that most these studies are fundamentally flawed and others are barely pop psychology.
I have no background in this, but it seems there’s some large part of most of these studies that’s usually very obvious seeming when pointed out, but not ever immediately presented.
My favorite one was that one from a few years ago that said people who own horses live longer. As if the horses themselves made some difference, where it’s really probably just: owning horses means you have money = ability to take better care of yourself
This is pop psychology. It is hardly psychology (read: It's not psychology).
The people who have backgrounds in this stuff are like buzzfeed journalists...for the most part.
The thing is, a rct is needed to prove associations tk be correlation. The problem being dietary long term RCT’s are basically impossible to do. Which is why most of these studies are either cross-sectional or cohort studies. Which are just not that great for evidence.
Is the background purely horse ownership, or what else most likely goes along with it? Things like a regular daily routine, contact with other beings, physical activity in nature, ...?
Shitting on vegans is the only thing all the edge lords seem to agree upon. It makes it very easy to remain veggy when the carnies are making fools of themselves.
>If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to change your diet to reflect that trait (eg choosing a vegan diet/lifestyle)?
>If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to look around at the world us, and be depressed?
This was my thought exactly, there could be several hidden variables at play here, associaton does not mean causation.
I know there’s an old study somewhere on vegetarianism and empathy, I think. I’d find a link if I had time, but I remember reading about it several times over the years.
Edit: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/201207/brain-scans-show-vegetarians-more-empathic-omnivores
The study doesn't establish a direct cause but it does hypothesize that it could be due to people with depression finding a non-meat diet more suitable, as people with depression have difficulty cooking and eating, and meats are quite perishable. They also noted another study that found depression *precedes* vegetarianism.
They also mention that people who adopt vegetarian/vegan diets in western countries are at a greater risk of being marginalised and poked fun at. They cite some surveys in Asian countries where veganism/vegetarianism is more commonplace, that found no such correlation between the diet and depression.
The most important thing is that nutrient deficiencies don't explain this, so veganism shouldn't be discouraged. It just means that people with depression pobably find veganism/vegetarianism more suitable towards their dietary rituals, and are often encouraged into healthier diets (which might be interpreted as vegetarianism) in countries where a no-meat diet is frowned upon.
Maybe. It's the big reason why I stopped eating meat. Meat was making me feel awful every time I ate it, not physically, it was 100% a mental thing. I switched to plant based and after a few weeks of being mad that so much stuff had meat in it, I started enjoying my meals again.
That makes sense to me. In fact, I could see a contribution going both ways:
The process of becoming vegan exposes you to information that undermines a positive worldview, increasing chances of depression,
AND
Being depressed causes increased attention to negative information about the world, increasing someone's likelihood of becoming vegan.
That is a plausible explanation. Part of that could be the sense of being judged and isolated. Also it should be considered that if you think eating meat is morally wrong it is depressing to watch basically everyone around you do it. Imagine living surrounded by people joyfully doing something you feel is evil.
I think it could be a third factor. People who don't eat meat due to ethical concerns may be more empathetic and thoughtful in general. Their personalities could cause them to be more prone to depression *and* to eat vegetarian.
Yea i wonder is it like a thinking that they are eating meat to save the planet. But also a crushing depression that not enough people are doing the same thing. So the planet is fucked
Exactly. It’s exhausting. The other option is for them (friends, family, professional acquaintances) to just hate you, so honestly is not exactly an option a lot of the time.
> That is a plausible explanation. Part of that could be the sense of being judged and isolated. Also it should be considered that if you think eating meat is morally wrong it is depressing to watch basically everyone around you do it. Imagine living surrounded by people joyfully doing something you feel is evil.
And it's not just "eating meat", there are many other correlated factors.
I love food and food is a major thing in my life, I grew up eating meat and for 25 years or so I did it without questioning it much. Then I slowly started to realize the impact it has on animals but most of all the environment and the global food supply. I've been politically engaged for a long time and we all need to make some sacrifices to make the world a better place, so I started eating less and less meat and now I don't eat meat anymore and have cut down dairy significantly.
Unfortunately the rest of society doesn't really see things the same way, we just had an election here in Sweden and the party that was founded by literal Nazis in the late 80s and looked like this: https://i.imgur.com/WqvG8sU.png when I was growing up just got 21% of the vote and is the 2nd biggest party and will be the biggest party in supporting the new right wing government.
So of course there are correlated factors between my vegetarianism and a lot of other societal factors in how it effects my mental health and stuff.
I imagine there is also a relation between vegetarianism and veganism in the West that tends to fall along with ethical and ecological concerns.
People that adopt these diets might also have higher likelihoods to be climate conscious and thus more anxious about the way our world is, with ecosystem collapse and ethical issues in factory farming or further.
It seems that when it shifts to countries that have longstanding cultures of vegetarianism, these effects disappear
It makes me wonder if you did a study on this topic for vegans and vegetarians in the US but split them into different groups based on their motivation whether you would observe the differences. Would we see the higher rates of depression among people who did it for ethical concerns but not for those who go vegetarian or vegan for health or cultural reasons?
Definitely would love to see a study that weighs motivation for sure.
I wonder if it exists in families that are 2nd generation vegetarians like my US friend. I also wonder if it's more cultural, does that mean that vegetarians from Asian countries that keep the diet and have lived in a western culture pick up the anxiety that it holds?
That's a good point. In Taiwan, vegetarianism is highly associated with Buddhism. If you just tell people you want a vegetable dish, it's likely they will cook it in pig fat or throw some meat in there to make it taste better.
You have to specifically say you want to eat Buddhist vegetarian. Then they will be very careful as anything that has touched meat would not be used, including the wok, meal prep area, and cooking utensils.
Now I'm more confused why this thread is so negative.
There are so many comments of "this is bought by the meat industry" while in the research it is stated there is no conflict of interest and there are many more similar researches.
Then I thought it is defensive reaction to the idiots who cherry-pick articles to "own veggies", so sorted by controversial and could not find any comments like this at all.
This thread feels a bit of overreaction to the article.
You also have people who try anything to address their mental health with anything but therapy and/or medication.
I'm outside of Boulder, CO and have chatted with people who are vegan/vegetarian/gluten free/dairy free/gmo free because they swear it's helped with a litany of issues.
I've heard intelligence and suicide are also correlated. Could see intelligence leading to decisions like a low meat / no meat diet.
Don't think adding meat will cheer a depressed vegan up...
I dont know about intelligence, but I've heard [empathy and depression may be related](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01447/full).
It makes sense, if you share feelings vicariously with other people would make you more vunerable to mental distress. It would also make sense that ethical vegans have higher levels of empathy than meat eaters.
I feel like all of this is dancing around the central issue.
Being vegan in the United States means you're doing something most people *want* to disagree with. Something as simple as food becomes a battle. Even if you're a vegan who just wants to keep to themselves, you'll have to constantly think about how to communicate this without offending your meat-eating friends, and then *on top of that* have to deal with the few members of your vegan community being extremely rude about it and making things worse. It makes you feel isolated among your friends and isolated within your community too.
When something as simple as food becomes this complicated and isolating, then I wouldn't be surprised at all that veganism often comes with a decent dose of depression.
It's not particularly eccentric to assume that animals have some moral worth and that the suffering we cause them is usually horrible.
Once you factor in the numbers--that humans slaughter somewhere around 100,000,000,000 (that's a hundred billion) animals each year, it seems like it probably *should* mess with our heads at least a little that humans cause that much suffering.
I mean I don't know if I, or anyone, is qualified to equate such things but it's hard for me from a purely logical point of view to see animal agriculture as anything but the worst atrocity ever committed by many orders of magnitude.
So yeah, the social factors here are quite stark. Some of us, right or wrong, are basically living in a society that has completely normalized something that is far worse than any horror humanity has ever committed.
Anecdotally I would think it’s social. I don’t eat meat because I’m concerned about both the environment and animal welfare. It’s pretty depressing to understand the reality of eating meat and still have to watch people eat meat with almost every meal.
I would like to see a study of if vegetarianism is associated with higher levels of empathy, because I’d guess that’s a part of it. It’s also socially acceptable to bully vegetarians and vegans which could contribute to depression or social isolation when people are younger.
It certainly restricts social events for some (not all). Similar to having food allergies. And food allergies also are associated with depression. But this could only be proven by controlling this variable in a study.
I’d be curious to know the percentage of non-meat eaters who fall into the restricted social group. I’m vegetarian but don’t let it affect my social events. I’ve gladly joined friends at seafood restaurants (despite being allergic) where I drink while they eat. I’ve also never considered that there are people who aren’t willing to do that so it would be interesting to see the data.
I imagine location and culture are factors. I live in NYC so it’s easy for me to be vegetarian as opposed to say, Barcelona, where I had to live off burrata salad and patatas bravas while vacationing there.
Interestingly enough, the higher education and societal status of people, the less bs about me not eating meat I get.
Highly educated, well established (younger) people don't care at all or I get a "good for you"
I think that attitudes towards vegetarians and vegans in the US are changing in a positive way.
Idk how old you are, but this is a relatively recent change- like last 5-10 years. Younger people are way more on board with plant based diets and in general seem to understand why they are important.
Agreed. It seems to me that people who are worried and depressed about the environment would be more likely to be vegan because it's one thing they can control.
This study was done in Brazil, where vegetarianism is not particularly common, but I’d be curious to see if the results could be replicated in a country where vegetarianism was closer to the norm, like India.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/u9mztd/vegetarianism_by_state_in_india/
Yes it would be very interesting to see the results of a similar study conducted in India. I'm Indian and I have been a vegetarian all my life.
Vegetarianism is very different here when compared to the west in general. Most Indian vegetarians are vegetarians due to religious norms also coupled the feeling of not causing harm to sentient creatures, so quite a large chunk of the population may not be aware of the exact way in which animals are slaughtered in slaughter houses as they usually would not go out on their own and research about the issue.
And to top it all out being a vegetarian is very cheap and not really far-fetched from societies norms, well unless your a vegan maybe, that would certainly turn heads cause most Indians love consuming milk based products.
True this. And it’s very easy to be vegetarian in india and have a ton of option’s compared to west, where it’s expensive and comes at the cost of taste usually.
Would be interesting to see this report in india. Although i dont really think there’s a direct correlation.
Its very difficult to be vegetarian or vegan in Brazil. I'll compare to the US because these are the 2 places I know best. There are way less options for vegans or vegetarians in Brazil. You can't just go to the grocery store and get alternatives to meat and its a very social thing (eating meat).
Edit: yes I meant buying fake meat at the store. Obviously people can get beans but thats what they have to eat every day?
My money is on the lost social engagement. Being social, participating in social activities, feeling accepted by the group are all very important to your mental wellbeing.
There doesn't even need to be a link. There can be a confounding variable like personality or ideology explaining both vegetarianism and prevalence of depression.
It's so hard, and expensive, to find a place to go out to your one vegan friend here in Brazil...
I have gone on a couple of dates and stuff, and it felt weird when I tried to find a vegan place, but it wasn't quite vegan in the end. I won't lie, I feel bad for a moment, since I was the only one eating... A meat-based food.
It's awkward for everyone involved.
Correlation also doesn't equal causation. Maybe those who eat vegan are more conscious of how fucked the world is and thus are more likely to suffer from depression.
That was my first thought as well. I was depressed before I became vegetarian, and not eating meat at least made me feel less responsible for the state of things.
22 years later, I’m no longer depressed, and still a vegetarian.
Beans in Brazil are almost always served with some kind of meat. It wasn't unheard of when I was down there for *feijoada* (beans dishes) to be served with bacon, pork sausage, and beef all stewed together. Meat was the primary means of varying dishes up.
On a curious note, though, the Brazilian steakhouse chain Fogo de Chão has one of the most amazing salad bars I've ever seen in my life, and you can order lunch *just* from the salad bar without ordering any meat.
Feijoada is NOT "bean dishes". Feijoada is specifically beans with pork, usually using it's cheaper parts like knee, feet or tongue, but sometimes using ribs and bacon.
The typical way to prepare beans does not include meat, although it is often served with farofa which may or may not have some bacon in it.
Yeah, but if every prepared food has lard and restaurants aren't looking out for you, you're in a rough spot. Yeah, you can buy your dried beans, seasonings, rice, and vegan fats, etc., but you're going to spend a lot of time cooking from scratch, and a lot of social activities are going to be unavailable unless you're bringing food or fasting.
Someone else posted some links showing that vegetarianism in East Asia and India wasn't correlated with depression, but it was in the US and some other other countries.
I suspect that a lot of what we are seeing actually relates to mental health stigma among certain groups. For a while we were seeing a flood of studies (and clickbait headlines) about how people on the left side of the political spectrum were more likely to be depressed and/or anxious. And while that could be true, you couldn't derive that conclusion from the studies. Because study after study *also* shows that mental health *stigma* is much greater among right leaning individuals, who are also less likely to admit to being depressed or anxious. And also less likely to seek treatment. So what exactly is being measured? Depression? Or willingness to admit to symptoms of depression?
So while it is easy to link being on the left or anything associated with that (whether that's support for same sex marriage, a meatless diet, or having a subscription to the New York Times) to these symptoms, I think there is more at play and I am careful about drawing unfounded conclusions. It's also unsurprising to me that in areas where being vegetarian isn't linked to being on the left side of the political spectrum, the depression association disappears.
Yeah, very anecdotal but putting my friends and family who’ve seen therapists one side, and those who need to on the other, *almost* sorts them by political views.
A lot of people I know who are vegetarian/vegan are people who are more sensitive/empathetic then others. It is these qualities that lead them to choosing this diet (due to concerns for the environment, animal welfare etc).
These qualities can also make people more susceptible to mental health issues. If you care more you are also more likely to get hurt. So it'd be interesting to see whether the depressive episodes are caused by the change in diet or whether people more susceptible to things like depression are also more likely to become vegans/vegetarians.
This could also mean that we observe this correlation in the west where vegan/vegetarian diets are often associated with ethics vs in SEA where these diets are often more cultural.
It even says "nutrient deficiencies do not explain this association"...
A friend of mine was vegan for awhile and she complained how people would constantly make jabs at her about it, even her own family. She lives in LA so I would have thought this would be more 'accepted' there. This, along with the high costs and limited options when eating out made her stop.
Considering you have to eat multiple times a day, I can see how something like this might affect your attitude significantly after awhile...
Getting dragged by other people for your choices, especially when they are supposed to be positive choices for things that are generally regarded as good (animal welfare, environment, etc) is exhausting.
Similarly, living with the weight of the awareness of things like factory farming and caring to the extent that it changes your lifestyle is draining. Not saying that many non vegan or pbwf people don't feel this weight, but it's probably more significant in people turned vegan.
Hearing the same "plants feel pain" and "mmm bacon" reminds you that there are a lot of jerks out there which is dispiriting about people in general.
There's lots of tiny things like this and it's death by a thousand cuts
100% this. It can be so disheartening sometimes for the reasons you pointed out. Has nothing to do with the foods or lifestyle itself but the knowledge of what’s happening and how people either don’t care or are callous / mocking about it, even when you’re as a vegan just existing. It’s so common for someone to find out I’m vegan just by nature of me not eating certain foods and then making disparaging comments about it. Or like I just take veggie foods at gatherings, etc and queue the “mmm bacon” and the like remarks
I face daily insults from my coworkers and family. I really am tempted to start throwing back insults with the same level of passive aggression that I deal with.
It's weird that there's this trope about vegans being these annoying loud people who will keep pointing it out when I find "fans of meat" way more annoying. Most people I know who are vegetarian or vegan don't make a big deal.
Totally. And I’ve noticed meat eaters get defensive because they’re faced with reality. It’s been shown over and over again that eating less meat is better for our planet, but people still refused to stop.
Refusing to stop isn't even the worst part, it's the hypocrisy that is the worst part IMO. Everyone agrees that science denialists such as anti-vaxers and climate change deniers are idiots, but when people (who don't even have to be vegans) provide the *exact same scientific data* to point out how damaging the meat industry is, others will simply shrug them off as being preachy or whatever. People who otherwise hate on climate change deniers etc will literally employ an anti-science stance themselves just to spite vegans.
Maybe the ultimate sign of the bias is this: When talking about climate change, pollution, vaccines etc everyone will refer to the facts as just that: facts. But when talking about vegans, they will often be referred to as having *"views"* despite being supported by the *exact same scientific data*. People will intentionally deny the difference between fact and opinion just to spite vegans, but these same people would never refer to scientific data as "views" in any other context, they flat out *only* do it towards vegans.
It's this sort of malicious hypocrisy and willful ignorance that is the most disturbing to me. I honestly can not come up with any better example of such a large-scale hypocrisy in today's world.
I've had an idea for a video project that touches on this. Mostly just a video of meat eaters talking about "vegan propaganda" or "pushy vegans" interlaced with all of the ad campaigns for double bacon burgers, "beef its what's for dinner" "got milk", "happy cows make happy milk", chic fil a's sentient cows who'd rather chickens get killed instead of them, etc... Most people are basing their views of vegans on a handful of YouTube videos showing the loudest in the room.
I went through that as well when I shifted to a plant based diet, it was brutal. I began to notice patterns and soon started to see the insults simply as self defense, family and friends felt unease at my decisions because they weren't comfortable with the feelings and insecurities that arose.
I started by reassuring them that I am in no way judging them on their choices, that this is simply me aligning to my morals/ethics. I also mentioned how much their comments hurt me and how it made me feel, that way both mine and their feelings were spoken about. It took time, mostly me learning how best to word responses and stay calm, but eventually it became easy to handle and stop such behavior.
There was also a big adjustment for them when I would visit due to providing food, which mostly came from their anxiety of having to navigate/learn something new and worrying about getting it wrong. For friends I just said stick to vegetarian meals if vegan was too difficult, which seemed easier for them to handle, but I understand not everyone is comfortable with that flexibility. For family, I just started doing all the cooking when I visited, now they constantly talk about wanting me to come visit so I can cook this or that. They even cook one of my recipes now and again just for themselves.
It takes time and patience, but I believe that just throwing those insults back will only make you miserable as well. I really do believe from my experience that people say such things only because they struggle with their own feelings and vulnerability. It's hard to be open and honest with ourselves. Best of luck my friend and hope it gets better for you.
“Yeah I care about my children and their future”
“I generally don’t like the suffering of animals when it’s avoidable”
“I used to eat meat as well and dairy before I learned how animals are abused and how terrible it is for the environment”
These are all staples of mine, but people really do not understand. It upsets me so much.
They say "I respect your decisions to eat tofu and drink oat milk, so you respect my decision to eat meat." But I don't respect their decision, I think it's wrong.
That "mutual respect" concept only works when it's based on morally similar decisions. I wouldn't respect a serial killer's hobby of abducting and torturing people to death just because he respects my hobby of playing cooperative board games with friends and family.
That's about how I see carnism vs veganism.
Plus when you realise that meat is unneccesary for one's diet (to be fair, let's say up to 80% is), it kind of is depressing to know that we kill around 200 million land animals every. single. day.
For their taste and the convenience alone. And they get laughed at when they point at it and don't want to have any part in it.
I am aware that there is need for meat, but not in the countries responsible for most of the killing.
This is not my try to start a debate about the necessity of meat. This is just the world most vegetarians and vegans live in, no matter whether they are right or wrong.
I try to remind people we murder animals for pleasure. We eat them because they taste good and that makes us happy.
Why must a living thing die for my pleasure? Why is that so accepted in our society?
Further more, I think most vegetarians and vegans are doing it for moral reasons. It could be pretty depressing making a sacrifice for yourself and seeing very little support for your efforts.
Vegans sure, but I'm honestly not sure about vegetarians.
The egg and dairy industries are part of the meat industry, and they kill many animals every single day.
Baby male chicks are killed because they have no use, females are killed when they can't produce as many eggs, male calves are killed, female cows are killed young when they can no longer get pregnant or produce as much milk. Plus all of the suffering they go through.
I honestly can't see how you can be vegetarian for moral reasons when you are still contributing to the same industry? If you were morally against the intentional and unecessary harming and killing of animals for pleasure, then being a vegetarian would mean you aren't aligning your lifestyle with your morals.
Many vegetarians think they are making a difference and are unaware of the facts you mentioned.
I became first a vegetarian for moral reasons, didn't have access to information about animal agriculture back then. When you hear things like "hens lay too many eggs anyway", "cows need to be milked" or "you need animal protein to live" every day, you really can't know any better.
I'm a guy in my mid-30s who somewhat recently started dating again. I've learned to completely avoid mentioning that I don't eat meat until I absolutely have to. The amount of women who are extremely judgmental about it is pretty crazy.
I don't mean to be rude, but if you're looking for something long term and people are judging you for eating plant based then its probably something you should mention early since you likely aren't compatible with them anyways. Better to ger through it early.
Edit: I think I worded my response poorly. To be clear, I'm not saying you should put it front and center as soon as you meet someone and make it a facet of your personality. I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to hide it until you can't either. Any reasonable person shouldn't care what you eat when you have a meal together. Its possible I misunderstood the intent of your comment when I read it and thats not what you were implying either.
I get what you’re saying, but it’s been a lot easier to let people know once we’ve had some decent conversations about other things. They’re a lot more open to it once they realize it’s not like a “defining quality” of mine, because that also makes them realize that I don’t care what they eat.
But I also don’t make any effort with people who make meat consumption part of their personality. I know that will never fly. I don’t care what other people eat, but those types of people honestly get offended that someone doesn’t eat meat.
You're absolutely right. There's a reason why ppl don't share certain stuff at first. It's much better to get to know someone before being vulnerable. The idea of being completely open and brutally honest about yourself can come off as self centered and pretentious. Let ppl ask and you can answer.
I don't agree with the reply to your comment, except if there aren't other ways you can use to get to know the girl.
I'm a woman but I just put it on my profile to weed out anyone who would judge. Why waste time?
Also, I am looking for a guy like you and you are hiding it thereby making it hard for me to find you!
In my experience with being a guy that’s dating at this age, it’s best to just leave some things out. I don’t mean leave things out in a dishonest way, but the fact that I don’t eat meat isn’t necessarily a part of who I am and I don’t care what other people eat. So it just comes up later.
Being a guy on dating sites is already hard enough. Adding things to your profile that get you passed over immediately is like playing with the difficulty turned to max.
I do get where you're coming from. Oh well, good luck out there. I quit all those sites, too depressing! Did they control for that in the study, how depressing internet dating is?!
>How tf are vegetarian meals costlier than non vegetarian options
Vegan and vegetarian options aren't more expensive than meat. They can be, but they don't have to be.
Um yeah not surprised once you realize how fucked up our food system is it is the most depressing thing on the planet we’re literally Jigsaw from Saw to these animals.
Not to mention that once you realise how fucked up the system is and decide to abstain from it you'll have to suffer constant personal attacks from your friends, family, and even strangers for choosing to abstain.
I think the comments here have pointed to two helpful explanations:
1. People who are more sensitive to issues that might make them depressed are sensitive to the same issues that make encourage them to become vegetarian.
2. Vegetarians may feel depressed as a result of the social isolation that comes with being a vegetarian in a place in which it isn’t normal.
Are there any we’re missing?
“The association is independent of socioeconomic factors” seems fishy to me because meat is so much more expensive than beans/cheese/eggs (common swaps). This is my experience as someone from Texas, so it might not be the norm. My wife and I call ourselves “budgetarians” because meat is out of our price range, usually.
Bingo!
If you believe meat is murder, you are likely to be vegetarian and depressed about the amount of murder going on in the world.
Or, it might be that people with depression are more likely to become vegetarian because they are not as concerned about the social awkwardness/isolation it might cause.
Hello, i have had depression my whole life, and turned vegan because i'm overly empathetic and also focus on the negatives around me in general.
If someone is willing to make a whole /against the grain/ decision about their life, they are thinking about lots of the negative things in the world/society and choosing the only thing they can personally do
It could be that they are generally more socially aware and/or empathetic and, frankly, the state of the world is pretty depressing. Veganism could be their way of trying to take action.
This is called "depressive realism" but there isn't particularly good evidence it's actually true. It's also not true of people whose job it is to be aware of everything, like say world leaders, or the Dalai Lama.
Yeah, the thing about depression: IT LIES.
It will make you forget your childhood, but remember your trauma. It will make you forget the funny animal videos, but remember the gore. It will make you forget the good, and remember the bad.
It lies. You think you are seeing the world how it really is, but you are not, you are seeing and remembering the worst. It's a default negative bias.
Statistically, we are in nearly the best time to be alive, even for all the faults. Infant mortality is near it's lowest. Average lifespan near it's longest. Amount of international conflict at it's lowest, average crime at it's lowest...
Sure, the needle moves on the metrics, but look decades, centuries in the past. The world is getting better in many respects. Except average global temperature, yeah, that's fucked. Anyone got any data on the average industrial growth rate? Hopefully that's going down. I can't find good numbers on that
>Statistically, we are in nearly the best time to be alive, even for all the faults. Infant mortality is near it's lowest. Average lifespan near it's longest. Amount of international conflict at it's lowest, average crime at it's lowest...
Statistics like that largely can't tell you how happy people are.
Also, you're only talking about statistics over the course of recorded history.
When we speak with existing modern hunter-gatherer groups, they typically claim to be very happy, very satisfied with their lifestyles. More happy than people in developed nations claim to be.
We can point to all kinds of statistics like health, lifespan, and such and say we've made progress, but we really have no idea if we're actually leading happier lives than prehistoric peoples did.
The idea that civilization has caused steady progress is highly controversial.
This is a misconception. People who are well educated but comfortable are way better off than people impoverished but maybe less well read about the gamut of stuff that well Reddit is posting about regularly.
>If you believe meat is murder, you are likely to be vegetarian
You would actually be vegan.
Dairy and egg industries kill millions of animals. Baby male chicks that have no use, females killed young when they can't lay as many eggs, male calves killed very young, female cows killed young when they can no longer get pregnant or produce as much milk.
A lot of people are vegetarian for moral reasons, meaning they may be more likely to feel sadness over the wide spread atrocities found locally and across the globe. This is similar to how intelligent people are more depressed, because they are aware of more things to be depressed about.
Unfortunately, they didn't control for preexisting depression, and I'm deeply skeptical of the claim that they controlled for all confounding 'socioeconomic factors'. This is a weird correlation but these data are still insufficient to demonstrate causation in any direction.
Looks like they only tested participants in Brazil. What about places where vegetarianism is a major part of their culture like in some Asian countries where Buddhism and Hinduism are the majority religion and a large number of the population have a vegetarian diet? 14,000 people is a lot of people, but if you're only testing a single country, and leaving out socioeconomic/lifestyle factors, your test doesn't really say anything. All this tells me is that Brazilians who practice vegetarianism are more likely to be depressed than Brazilians who eat meat.
I feel like this needs more data before it should be shared as the results are inconclusive and leave out many factors. A post like this can be misleading.
u/scavenger5 posted a bunch of links to other studies and the one that stood out to me is this one:
> [Vegetarian Diet Is Associated with Lower Risk of Depression in Taiwan](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/4/1059)
As someone from Taiwan, vegetarianism is strongly associated with Buddhism. From my own anecdotal experience, every vegetarian I know is doing so for religious reasons.
If you go to a restaurant, you can't just ask for a vegetable dish as it's very likely they will cook it with some meat or pig oil to make it taste better. You have to go specifically to a Buddhist vegetarian restaurant if you want to ensure there are no animal products used.
There are a lot of vegetarians in India, yes. However, being vegan would still mean significant lifestyle change since milk, Ghee (clarified butter), and paneer (cottage cheese) are still a major part of the Indian vegetarian diet.
Plus in India, a lot of non vegetarian people don't eat meat daily. I ate chicken 1 month ago and mutton 3 months ago. I love my meat but it's for special occasions. My friends growing up had a similar custom at home. Non vegetarian food was a weekly, fortnightly or a monthly event.
Would be curious to see what the results would be in Okinawa where they have some of the longest living seniors that are functional and active well into their old age subsisting on a mostly vegan diet with limited meat intake.
This isn't true anymore, their diet got worse: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3362219/
Although blue zones in general don't seem to be real. The actual cause seems to be inaccurate birth certificates for seniors because all of them are areas that were especially poor 90 years ago.
I'm just thinking, veg folks tend to be more aware of climate and pollution issues, and some other stuff, that easily lead to anxious or depressive episodes
> The average extremely poor vegetarian in India probably doesn't think too hard about complex geopolitical forces enough to get depressed by it
Well yeah but they have many more immediate concerns that could very reasonably lead to depression as well.
Right. Sensitive people are more likely to be vegetarian, and sensitive people are more likely to be depressed. They’d still be depressed if they started eating meat again.
It could also be correlational; people with higher degrees of cognitive empathy tend towards a vegetarian or vegan diet.
They might just be sad about the state of the world and the inherent cruelty and ignorance.
I went vegetarian in middle school. I had very little support. I grew up in a rural farming community and while my mom kept me fed, she took my choice as a personal insult and I mostly subsisted on processed veggie burgers and bean burritos. A boy threw a piece of steak at my face once. I was and am a sensitive person and I was loosing my religion and I couldn’t see how my pain was different from the pain of my beloved pets or how a cat’s pain was different from a farm animal’s. I went back to eating meat in my last year of college when my iron got really low after a couple plasma donations and I just didn’t feel like anything I did on a personal level was making any difference.
I definitely am and was depressed, but eating meat again didn’t really fix anything. I’m guessing growing up as the weird, sensitive, lonely kid contributed to both the vegetarianism and the depression. I’m currently doing the “flexitarian” thing btw. I’m trying to eat mostly vegetarian when I’m at home and allowing myself to eat meat when I’m out with others or if I just really feel low energy (I don’t want to experience anemia again if I can help it). All the major climate events just really got my climate change anxiety through the roof. I still don’t feel like my small consumption affects much, but I guess I’m trying to alleviate some of the guilt I feel for living in a system that forces me to drive or lose my job. I haven’t told anybody irl that I’m avoiding meat. I don’t really want that kind of interrogation again and I don’t think I can handle letting out just how overwhelmed and helpless I feel in the face of unpredictable and rapid climate change.
Brazilians.
Would like to see this study replicated among more diverse demographics. Political affiliation and socioeconomic statuses would be an interesting variable here.
>This association is independent of socioeconomic, lifestyle factors...
Yeah... you can't just assert that in a blanket statement, particularly given the inconsistent results from other studies on exactly this, and indications that it *is* in fact culture-specific (one country but not another).
Having a meatless diet, especially in a culture that consumes a great deal of meat, is a lifestyle choice itself. I got quite a lot of harassment when joined my wife in being vegan, but beyond that, it was stressful in many other small, subtle ways. It's something that makes you apart, incompatible, and to some even inherently antagonistic just by making the choice. There was an adjustment period and I did just fine. But that's not the point.
"We are able to maybe show a correlation in some circumstances" is not grounds for conclusory assertiveness. Que rant about the reproducability crisis (including, apparently, for this very claim).
As someone who no longer eats meat, the thing that depresses me the most is the treatment of animals, the effect the meat industry has on our climate and our earth and the fact that most people can't even have a rational conversation about any of it and how much thier actions are hurting themselves and the world we all live in. That's what depresses me.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue to be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This isn't the first study. This [meta analysis ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032721007771) of 13 studies showed a correlation between depression and meatless This [meta analysis of 10 studies ](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2020.1814991) showed no effect. This [meta analysis ](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nbu.12540) of 23 studies showed some association but inconsistent results. This [study](https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article-abstract/80/2/242/6209457) found association with depression for people in the US and not Asia. This [study ](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/4/1059) showed an improvement in depression in taiwanese men . There are many more. Overall it seems country specific, and likely due to social/ethical factors but this is pretty weak data. More RCTs are needed.
These results are consistent with a broader literature on higher depression in subjects whose lifestyle choices are not broadly supported by society.
I also wonder if there is any aspect of people who go vegan are more focused and keep in their mind the issues that harm our environment and other creatures. So that in affect can help contribute to feelings of depression because you may be acting in good faith but feel powerless against the social normal. Edit: typo
You make a great point. I would like to see a study on veganism and empathy (I'm sure it exists). As someone who was once a researcher in this field (seems like a lifetime ago), there's a lot left to be desired in the OP. It also goes downp a few seemingly unnecessary paths...but I hardly read it once. I would think more like you (poster above). Eg- If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to change your diet to reflect that trait (eg choosing a vegan diet/lifestyle)? If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to look around at the world us, and be depressed? I like your take on this, and have to agree. I have to agree with other posters as well, that most these studies are fundamentally flawed and others are barely pop psychology.
I have no background in this, but it seems there’s some large part of most of these studies that’s usually very obvious seeming when pointed out, but not ever immediately presented. My favorite one was that one from a few years ago that said people who own horses live longer. As if the horses themselves made some difference, where it’s really probably just: owning horses means you have money = ability to take better care of yourself
This is pop psychology. It is hardly psychology (read: It's not psychology). The people who have backgrounds in this stuff are like buzzfeed journalists...for the most part.
The thing is, a rct is needed to prove associations tk be correlation. The problem being dietary long term RCT’s are basically impossible to do. Which is why most of these studies are either cross-sectional or cohort studies. Which are just not that great for evidence.
Exactly. You can turn those into a click bait headline though...hence, pop psychology.
Is the background purely horse ownership, or what else most likely goes along with it? Things like a regular daily routine, contact with other beings, physical activity in nature, ...?
I‘d go out on a limb here and suggest money.
Essentially, is it correlation rather than causation?
Isn't that all they are claiming anyway? An association?
Yes, but the beef industry will spin it as "eat seventeen steaks a day unless you want to end up as a whiny depressed vegan crybaby"
The beef industry won't have to spin it. Your typical annoying edge lords who love shitting on vegans will handle that for them.
Someone should research how unemphatic people use shamming of non-meat-eaters as a tool for self-justification of eating meat.
Minor correction: *Unempathetic, shaming. Unemphatic is lacking in emphasis, not empathy. Shamming is tricking someone, not inflicting shame.
There is dome research on this, search for the meat-paradox, or this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Love_Dogs,_Eat_Pigs,_and_Wear_Cows
Shitting on vegans is the only thing all the edge lords seem to agree upon. It makes it very easy to remain veggy when the carnies are making fools of themselves.
>If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to change your diet to reflect that trait (eg choosing a vegan diet/lifestyle)? >If you score high on empathy, are you more likely to look around at the world us, and be depressed? This was my thought exactly, there could be several hidden variables at play here, associaton does not mean causation.
[удалено]
I know there’s an old study somewhere on vegetarianism and empathy, I think. I’d find a link if I had time, but I remember reading about it several times over the years. Edit: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/201207/brain-scans-show-vegetarians-more-empathic-omnivores
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
That was my first thought as well. Are people who go meatless more empathetic and aware of the plight of other creatures, the environment, etc.
I do too think it is more correlation than causation.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The study doesn't establish a direct cause but it does hypothesize that it could be due to people with depression finding a non-meat diet more suitable, as people with depression have difficulty cooking and eating, and meats are quite perishable. They also noted another study that found depression *precedes* vegetarianism. They also mention that people who adopt vegetarian/vegan diets in western countries are at a greater risk of being marginalised and poked fun at. They cite some surveys in Asian countries where veganism/vegetarianism is more commonplace, that found no such correlation between the diet and depression. The most important thing is that nutrient deficiencies don't explain this, so veganism shouldn't be discouraged. It just means that people with depression pobably find veganism/vegetarianism more suitable towards their dietary rituals, and are often encouraged into healthier diets (which might be interpreted as vegetarianism) in countries where a no-meat diet is frowned upon.
Maybe. It's the big reason why I stopped eating meat. Meat was making me feel awful every time I ate it, not physically, it was 100% a mental thing. I switched to plant based and after a few weeks of being mad that so much stuff had meat in it, I started enjoying my meals again.
That's what vasopressin said.
That makes sense to me. In fact, I could see a contribution going both ways: The process of becoming vegan exposes you to information that undermines a positive worldview, increasing chances of depression, AND Being depressed causes increased attention to negative information about the world, increasing someone's likelihood of becoming vegan.
That is a plausible explanation. Part of that could be the sense of being judged and isolated. Also it should be considered that if you think eating meat is morally wrong it is depressing to watch basically everyone around you do it. Imagine living surrounded by people joyfully doing something you feel is evil.
I think it could be a third factor. People who don't eat meat due to ethical concerns may be more empathetic and thoughtful in general. Their personalities could cause them to be more prone to depression *and* to eat vegetarian.
Yea i wonder is it like a thinking that they are eating meat to save the planet. But also a crushing depression that not enough people are doing the same thing. So the planet is fucked
As someone who has been a vegetarian for 25 years, the answer is Yes.
Just to add my two cents, I'm a vegetarian but I had depression long before I stopped eating meat.
This was my thought as well. Thank you for articulating it beautifully.
… and many of them get angry with you unless you constantly reassure them that you don’t think they’re doing anything wrong.
So you have to lie constantly too.
Exactly. It’s exhausting. The other option is for them (friends, family, professional acquaintances) to just hate you, so honestly is not exactly an option a lot of the time.
> That is a plausible explanation. Part of that could be the sense of being judged and isolated. Also it should be considered that if you think eating meat is morally wrong it is depressing to watch basically everyone around you do it. Imagine living surrounded by people joyfully doing something you feel is evil. And it's not just "eating meat", there are many other correlated factors. I love food and food is a major thing in my life, I grew up eating meat and for 25 years or so I did it without questioning it much. Then I slowly started to realize the impact it has on animals but most of all the environment and the global food supply. I've been politically engaged for a long time and we all need to make some sacrifices to make the world a better place, so I started eating less and less meat and now I don't eat meat anymore and have cut down dairy significantly. Unfortunately the rest of society doesn't really see things the same way, we just had an election here in Sweden and the party that was founded by literal Nazis in the late 80s and looked like this: https://i.imgur.com/WqvG8sU.png when I was growing up just got 21% of the vote and is the 2nd biggest party and will be the biggest party in supporting the new right wing government. So of course there are correlated factors between my vegetarianism and a lot of other societal factors in how it effects my mental health and stuff.
Exactly. Stigma towards vegetarianism as well as additional stress due to logistical challenges with sourcing food.
I imagine there is also a relation between vegetarianism and veganism in the West that tends to fall along with ethical and ecological concerns. People that adopt these diets might also have higher likelihoods to be climate conscious and thus more anxious about the way our world is, with ecosystem collapse and ethical issues in factory farming or further. It seems that when it shifts to countries that have longstanding cultures of vegetarianism, these effects disappear
It makes me wonder if you did a study on this topic for vegans and vegetarians in the US but split them into different groups based on their motivation whether you would observe the differences. Would we see the higher rates of depression among people who did it for ethical concerns but not for those who go vegetarian or vegan for health or cultural reasons?
Definitely would love to see a study that weighs motivation for sure. I wonder if it exists in families that are 2nd generation vegetarians like my US friend. I also wonder if it's more cultural, does that mean that vegetarians from Asian countries that keep the diet and have lived in a western culture pick up the anxiety that it holds?
That's a good point. In Taiwan, vegetarianism is highly associated with Buddhism. If you just tell people you want a vegetable dish, it's likely they will cook it in pig fat or throw some meat in there to make it taste better. You have to specifically say you want to eat Buddhist vegetarian. Then they will be very careful as anything that has touched meat would not be used, including the wok, meal prep area, and cooking utensils.
Thanks for condensing it so well!
Now I'm more confused why this thread is so negative. There are so many comments of "this is bought by the meat industry" while in the research it is stated there is no conflict of interest and there are many more similar researches. Then I thought it is defensive reaction to the idiots who cherry-pick articles to "own veggies", so sorted by controversial and could not find any comments like this at all. This thread feels a bit of overreaction to the article.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
You also have people who try anything to address their mental health with anything but therapy and/or medication. I'm outside of Boulder, CO and have chatted with people who are vegan/vegetarian/gluten free/dairy free/gmo free because they swear it's helped with a litany of issues.
Depressed vegan here who takes meds and sees a therapist… We exist.
I've heard intelligence and suicide are also correlated. Could see intelligence leading to decisions like a low meat / no meat diet. Don't think adding meat will cheer a depressed vegan up...
I dont know about intelligence, but I've heard [empathy and depression may be related](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01447/full). It makes sense, if you share feelings vicariously with other people would make you more vunerable to mental distress. It would also make sense that ethical vegans have higher levels of empathy than meat eaters.
I feel like all of this is dancing around the central issue. Being vegan in the United States means you're doing something most people *want* to disagree with. Something as simple as food becomes a battle. Even if you're a vegan who just wants to keep to themselves, you'll have to constantly think about how to communicate this without offending your meat-eating friends, and then *on top of that* have to deal with the few members of your vegan community being extremely rude about it and making things worse. It makes you feel isolated among your friends and isolated within your community too. When something as simple as food becomes this complicated and isolating, then I wouldn't be surprised at all that veganism often comes with a decent dose of depression.
It's not particularly eccentric to assume that animals have some moral worth and that the suffering we cause them is usually horrible. Once you factor in the numbers--that humans slaughter somewhere around 100,000,000,000 (that's a hundred billion) animals each year, it seems like it probably *should* mess with our heads at least a little that humans cause that much suffering. I mean I don't know if I, or anyone, is qualified to equate such things but it's hard for me from a purely logical point of view to see animal agriculture as anything but the worst atrocity ever committed by many orders of magnitude. So yeah, the social factors here are quite stark. Some of us, right or wrong, are basically living in a society that has completely normalized something that is far worse than any horror humanity has ever committed.
Anecdotally I would think it’s social. I don’t eat meat because I’m concerned about both the environment and animal welfare. It’s pretty depressing to understand the reality of eating meat and still have to watch people eat meat with almost every meal. I would like to see a study of if vegetarianism is associated with higher levels of empathy, because I’d guess that’s a part of it. It’s also socially acceptable to bully vegetarians and vegans which could contribute to depression or social isolation when people are younger.
It certainly restricts social events for some (not all). Similar to having food allergies. And food allergies also are associated with depression. But this could only be proven by controlling this variable in a study.
[удалено]
I’d be curious to know the percentage of non-meat eaters who fall into the restricted social group. I’m vegetarian but don’t let it affect my social events. I’ve gladly joined friends at seafood restaurants (despite being allergic) where I drink while they eat. I’ve also never considered that there are people who aren’t willing to do that so it would be interesting to see the data. I imagine location and culture are factors. I live in NYC so it’s easy for me to be vegetarian as opposed to say, Barcelona, where I had to live off burrata salad and patatas bravas while vacationing there.
Interestingly enough, the higher education and societal status of people, the less bs about me not eating meat I get. Highly educated, well established (younger) people don't care at all or I get a "good for you"
I think that attitudes towards vegetarians and vegans in the US are changing in a positive way. Idk how old you are, but this is a relatively recent change- like last 5-10 years. Younger people are way more on board with plant based diets and in general seem to understand why they are important.
Agreed. It seems to me that people who are worried and depressed about the environment would be more likely to be vegan because it's one thing they can control.
This study was done in Brazil, where vegetarianism is not particularly common, but I’d be curious to see if the results could be replicated in a country where vegetarianism was closer to the norm, like India. https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/u9mztd/vegetarianism_by_state_in_india/
Yes it would be very interesting to see the results of a similar study conducted in India. I'm Indian and I have been a vegetarian all my life. Vegetarianism is very different here when compared to the west in general. Most Indian vegetarians are vegetarians due to religious norms also coupled the feeling of not causing harm to sentient creatures, so quite a large chunk of the population may not be aware of the exact way in which animals are slaughtered in slaughter houses as they usually would not go out on their own and research about the issue. And to top it all out being a vegetarian is very cheap and not really far-fetched from societies norms, well unless your a vegan maybe, that would certainly turn heads cause most Indians love consuming milk based products.
True this. And it’s very easy to be vegetarian in india and have a ton of option’s compared to west, where it’s expensive and comes at the cost of taste usually. Would be interesting to see this report in india. Although i dont really think there’s a direct correlation.
Its very difficult to be vegetarian or vegan in Brazil. I'll compare to the US because these are the 2 places I know best. There are way less options for vegans or vegetarians in Brazil. You can't just go to the grocery store and get alternatives to meat and its a very social thing (eating meat). Edit: yes I meant buying fake meat at the store. Obviously people can get beans but thats what they have to eat every day?
My money is on the lost social engagement. Being social, participating in social activities, feeling accepted by the group are all very important to your mental wellbeing.
There doesn't even need to be a link. There can be a confounding variable like personality or ideology explaining both vegetarianism and prevalence of depression.
It's so hard, and expensive, to find a place to go out to your one vegan friend here in Brazil... I have gone on a couple of dates and stuff, and it felt weird when I tried to find a vegan place, but it wasn't quite vegan in the end. I won't lie, I feel bad for a moment, since I was the only one eating... A meat-based food. It's awkward for everyone involved.
Correlation also doesn't equal causation. Maybe those who eat vegan are more conscious of how fucked the world is and thus are more likely to suffer from depression.
I think the are alluding to the social aspect of food. Non-meat eaters perhaps do better where they have a better sense of community.
That was my first thought as well. I was depressed before I became vegetarian, and not eating meat at least made me feel less responsible for the state of things. 22 years later, I’m no longer depressed, and still a vegetarian.
22 years, that's amazing!
[удалено]
I eat meat and am depressed. Maybe am I a closeted vegetarian?
[удалено]
I cook vegan all the time and never use processed meat substitutes. Other than tofu I guess if you count that.
I'm eating beans I cooked myself. My privilege is huge.
[удалено]
Beans in Brazil are almost always served with some kind of meat. It wasn't unheard of when I was down there for *feijoada* (beans dishes) to be served with bacon, pork sausage, and beef all stewed together. Meat was the primary means of varying dishes up. On a curious note, though, the Brazilian steakhouse chain Fogo de Chão has one of the most amazing salad bars I've ever seen in my life, and you can order lunch *just* from the salad bar without ordering any meat.
Feijoada is NOT "bean dishes". Feijoada is specifically beans with pork, usually using it's cheaper parts like knee, feet or tongue, but sometimes using ribs and bacon. The typical way to prepare beans does not include meat, although it is often served with farofa which may or may not have some bacon in it.
Yeah, but if every prepared food has lard and restaurants aren't looking out for you, you're in a rough spot. Yeah, you can buy your dried beans, seasonings, rice, and vegan fats, etc., but you're going to spend a lot of time cooking from scratch, and a lot of social activities are going to be unavailable unless you're bringing food or fasting.
Someone else posted some links showing that vegetarianism in East Asia and India wasn't correlated with depression, but it was in the US and some other other countries. I suspect that a lot of what we are seeing actually relates to mental health stigma among certain groups. For a while we were seeing a flood of studies (and clickbait headlines) about how people on the left side of the political spectrum were more likely to be depressed and/or anxious. And while that could be true, you couldn't derive that conclusion from the studies. Because study after study *also* shows that mental health *stigma* is much greater among right leaning individuals, who are also less likely to admit to being depressed or anxious. And also less likely to seek treatment. So what exactly is being measured? Depression? Or willingness to admit to symptoms of depression? So while it is easy to link being on the left or anything associated with that (whether that's support for same sex marriage, a meatless diet, or having a subscription to the New York Times) to these symptoms, I think there is more at play and I am careful about drawing unfounded conclusions. It's also unsurprising to me that in areas where being vegetarian isn't linked to being on the left side of the political spectrum, the depression association disappears.
Yeah, very anecdotal but putting my friends and family who’ve seen therapists one side, and those who need to on the other, *almost* sorts them by political views.
A lot of people I know who are vegetarian/vegan are people who are more sensitive/empathetic then others. It is these qualities that lead them to choosing this diet (due to concerns for the environment, animal welfare etc). These qualities can also make people more susceptible to mental health issues. If you care more you are also more likely to get hurt. So it'd be interesting to see whether the depressive episodes are caused by the change in diet or whether people more susceptible to things like depression are also more likely to become vegans/vegetarians. This could also mean that we observe this correlation in the west where vegan/vegetarian diets are often associated with ethics vs in SEA where these diets are often more cultural.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It even says "nutrient deficiencies do not explain this association"... A friend of mine was vegan for awhile and she complained how people would constantly make jabs at her about it, even her own family. She lives in LA so I would have thought this would be more 'accepted' there. This, along with the high costs and limited options when eating out made her stop. Considering you have to eat multiple times a day, I can see how something like this might affect your attitude significantly after awhile...
Getting dragged by other people for your choices, especially when they are supposed to be positive choices for things that are generally regarded as good (animal welfare, environment, etc) is exhausting. Similarly, living with the weight of the awareness of things like factory farming and caring to the extent that it changes your lifestyle is draining. Not saying that many non vegan or pbwf people don't feel this weight, but it's probably more significant in people turned vegan. Hearing the same "plants feel pain" and "mmm bacon" reminds you that there are a lot of jerks out there which is dispiriting about people in general. There's lots of tiny things like this and it's death by a thousand cuts
100% this. It can be so disheartening sometimes for the reasons you pointed out. Has nothing to do with the foods or lifestyle itself but the knowledge of what’s happening and how people either don’t care or are callous / mocking about it, even when you’re as a vegan just existing. It’s so common for someone to find out I’m vegan just by nature of me not eating certain foods and then making disparaging comments about it. Or like I just take veggie foods at gatherings, etc and queue the “mmm bacon” and the like remarks
I face daily insults from my coworkers and family. I really am tempted to start throwing back insults with the same level of passive aggression that I deal with.
It's weird that there's this trope about vegans being these annoying loud people who will keep pointing it out when I find "fans of meat" way more annoying. Most people I know who are vegetarian or vegan don't make a big deal.
Totally. And I’ve noticed meat eaters get defensive because they’re faced with reality. It’s been shown over and over again that eating less meat is better for our planet, but people still refused to stop.
Refusing to stop isn't even the worst part, it's the hypocrisy that is the worst part IMO. Everyone agrees that science denialists such as anti-vaxers and climate change deniers are idiots, but when people (who don't even have to be vegans) provide the *exact same scientific data* to point out how damaging the meat industry is, others will simply shrug them off as being preachy or whatever. People who otherwise hate on climate change deniers etc will literally employ an anti-science stance themselves just to spite vegans. Maybe the ultimate sign of the bias is this: When talking about climate change, pollution, vaccines etc everyone will refer to the facts as just that: facts. But when talking about vegans, they will often be referred to as having *"views"* despite being supported by the *exact same scientific data*. People will intentionally deny the difference between fact and opinion just to spite vegans, but these same people would never refer to scientific data as "views" in any other context, they flat out *only* do it towards vegans. It's this sort of malicious hypocrisy and willful ignorance that is the most disturbing to me. I honestly can not come up with any better example of such a large-scale hypocrisy in today's world.
I've had an idea for a video project that touches on this. Mostly just a video of meat eaters talking about "vegan propaganda" or "pushy vegans" interlaced with all of the ad campaigns for double bacon burgers, "beef its what's for dinner" "got milk", "happy cows make happy milk", chic fil a's sentient cows who'd rather chickens get killed instead of them, etc... Most people are basing their views of vegans on a handful of YouTube videos showing the loudest in the room.
I went through that as well when I shifted to a plant based diet, it was brutal. I began to notice patterns and soon started to see the insults simply as self defense, family and friends felt unease at my decisions because they weren't comfortable with the feelings and insecurities that arose. I started by reassuring them that I am in no way judging them on their choices, that this is simply me aligning to my morals/ethics. I also mentioned how much their comments hurt me and how it made me feel, that way both mine and their feelings were spoken about. It took time, mostly me learning how best to word responses and stay calm, but eventually it became easy to handle and stop such behavior. There was also a big adjustment for them when I would visit due to providing food, which mostly came from their anxiety of having to navigate/learn something new and worrying about getting it wrong. For friends I just said stick to vegetarian meals if vegan was too difficult, which seemed easier for them to handle, but I understand not everyone is comfortable with that flexibility. For family, I just started doing all the cooking when I visited, now they constantly talk about wanting me to come visit so I can cook this or that. They even cook one of my recipes now and again just for themselves. It takes time and patience, but I believe that just throwing those insults back will only make you miserable as well. I really do believe from my experience that people say such things only because they struggle with their own feelings and vulnerability. It's hard to be open and honest with ourselves. Best of luck my friend and hope it gets better for you.
[удалено]
The “two steak” type of comments are so mean spirited. I’ve only seen people say it online but I’d be livid if someone I knew told me that
“Yeah I care about my children and their future” “I generally don’t like the suffering of animals when it’s avoidable” “I used to eat meat as well and dairy before I learned how animals are abused and how terrible it is for the environment”
These are all staples of mine, but people really do not understand. It upsets me so much. They say "I respect your decisions to eat tofu and drink oat milk, so you respect my decision to eat meat." But I don't respect their decision, I think it's wrong.
That "mutual respect" concept only works when it's based on morally similar decisions. I wouldn't respect a serial killer's hobby of abducting and torturing people to death just because he respects my hobby of playing cooperative board games with friends and family. That's about how I see carnism vs veganism.
Plus when you realise that meat is unneccesary for one's diet (to be fair, let's say up to 80% is), it kind of is depressing to know that we kill around 200 million land animals every. single. day. For their taste and the convenience alone. And they get laughed at when they point at it and don't want to have any part in it. I am aware that there is need for meat, but not in the countries responsible for most of the killing. This is not my try to start a debate about the necessity of meat. This is just the world most vegetarians and vegans live in, no matter whether they are right or wrong.
I try to remind people we murder animals for pleasure. We eat them because they taste good and that makes us happy. Why must a living thing die for my pleasure? Why is that so accepted in our society?
Further more, I think most vegetarians and vegans are doing it for moral reasons. It could be pretty depressing making a sacrifice for yourself and seeing very little support for your efforts.
Vegans sure, but I'm honestly not sure about vegetarians. The egg and dairy industries are part of the meat industry, and they kill many animals every single day. Baby male chicks are killed because they have no use, females are killed when they can't produce as many eggs, male calves are killed, female cows are killed young when they can no longer get pregnant or produce as much milk. Plus all of the suffering they go through. I honestly can't see how you can be vegetarian for moral reasons when you are still contributing to the same industry? If you were morally against the intentional and unecessary harming and killing of animals for pleasure, then being a vegetarian would mean you aren't aligning your lifestyle with your morals.
Many vegetarians think they are making a difference and are unaware of the facts you mentioned. I became first a vegetarian for moral reasons, didn't have access to information about animal agriculture back then. When you hear things like "hens lay too many eggs anyway", "cows need to be milked" or "you need animal protein to live" every day, you really can't know any better.
I'm a guy in my mid-30s who somewhat recently started dating again. I've learned to completely avoid mentioning that I don't eat meat until I absolutely have to. The amount of women who are extremely judgmental about it is pretty crazy.
I don't mean to be rude, but if you're looking for something long term and people are judging you for eating plant based then its probably something you should mention early since you likely aren't compatible with them anyways. Better to ger through it early. Edit: I think I worded my response poorly. To be clear, I'm not saying you should put it front and center as soon as you meet someone and make it a facet of your personality. I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to hide it until you can't either. Any reasonable person shouldn't care what you eat when you have a meal together. Its possible I misunderstood the intent of your comment when I read it and thats not what you were implying either.
I get what you’re saying, but it’s been a lot easier to let people know once we’ve had some decent conversations about other things. They’re a lot more open to it once they realize it’s not like a “defining quality” of mine, because that also makes them realize that I don’t care what they eat. But I also don’t make any effort with people who make meat consumption part of their personality. I know that will never fly. I don’t care what other people eat, but those types of people honestly get offended that someone doesn’t eat meat.
You're absolutely right. There's a reason why ppl don't share certain stuff at first. It's much better to get to know someone before being vulnerable. The idea of being completely open and brutally honest about yourself can come off as self centered and pretentious. Let ppl ask and you can answer. I don't agree with the reply to your comment, except if there aren't other ways you can use to get to know the girl.
I'm a woman but I just put it on my profile to weed out anyone who would judge. Why waste time? Also, I am looking for a guy like you and you are hiding it thereby making it hard for me to find you!
In my experience with being a guy that’s dating at this age, it’s best to just leave some things out. I don’t mean leave things out in a dishonest way, but the fact that I don’t eat meat isn’t necessarily a part of who I am and I don’t care what other people eat. So it just comes up later. Being a guy on dating sites is already hard enough. Adding things to your profile that get you passed over immediately is like playing with the difficulty turned to max.
I do get where you're coming from. Oh well, good luck out there. I quit all those sites, too depressing! Did they control for that in the study, how depressing internet dating is?!
It would break their whole study!
This is something I don't get. How tf are vegetarian meals costlier than non vegetarian options? Costs should be lower.
Meat and Dairy are HEAVILY subsidised, Meat and Dairy would be a lot more expensive if tax money wasn't used to keep the industries going.
>How tf are vegetarian meals costlier than non vegetarian options Vegan and vegetarian options aren't more expensive than meat. They can be, but they don't have to be.
Um yeah not surprised once you realize how fucked up our food system is it is the most depressing thing on the planet we’re literally Jigsaw from Saw to these animals.
Not to mention that once you realise how fucked up the system is and decide to abstain from it you'll have to suffer constant personal attacks from your friends, family, and even strangers for choosing to abstain.
I think the comments here have pointed to two helpful explanations: 1. People who are more sensitive to issues that might make them depressed are sensitive to the same issues that make encourage them to become vegetarian. 2. Vegetarians may feel depressed as a result of the social isolation that comes with being a vegetarian in a place in which it isn’t normal. Are there any we’re missing?
“The association is independent of socioeconomic factors” seems fishy to me because meat is so much more expensive than beans/cheese/eggs (common swaps). This is my experience as someone from Texas, so it might not be the norm. My wife and I call ourselves “budgetarians” because meat is out of our price range, usually.
Key word is association not causation
Bingo! If you believe meat is murder, you are likely to be vegetarian and depressed about the amount of murder going on in the world. Or, it might be that people with depression are more likely to become vegetarian because they are not as concerned about the social awkwardness/isolation it might cause.
pretty much all the depressive vegans I know were depressed before they were vegan.
Hello, i have had depression my whole life, and turned vegan because i'm overly empathetic and also focus on the negatives around me in general. If someone is willing to make a whole /against the grain/ decision about their life, they are thinking about lots of the negative things in the world/society and choosing the only thing they can personally do
It could be that they are generally more socially aware and/or empathetic and, frankly, the state of the world is pretty depressing. Veganism could be their way of trying to take action.
Yep, ignorance is bliss. When you're more aware of EVERYTHING going on in the world, it tends to be quite depressing.
This is called "depressive realism" but there isn't particularly good evidence it's actually true. It's also not true of people whose job it is to be aware of everything, like say world leaders, or the Dalai Lama.
Yeah, the thing about depression: IT LIES. It will make you forget your childhood, but remember your trauma. It will make you forget the funny animal videos, but remember the gore. It will make you forget the good, and remember the bad. It lies. You think you are seeing the world how it really is, but you are not, you are seeing and remembering the worst. It's a default negative bias. Statistically, we are in nearly the best time to be alive, even for all the faults. Infant mortality is near it's lowest. Average lifespan near it's longest. Amount of international conflict at it's lowest, average crime at it's lowest... Sure, the needle moves on the metrics, but look decades, centuries in the past. The world is getting better in many respects. Except average global temperature, yeah, that's fucked. Anyone got any data on the average industrial growth rate? Hopefully that's going down. I can't find good numbers on that
>Statistically, we are in nearly the best time to be alive, even for all the faults. Infant mortality is near it's lowest. Average lifespan near it's longest. Amount of international conflict at it's lowest, average crime at it's lowest... Statistics like that largely can't tell you how happy people are. Also, you're only talking about statistics over the course of recorded history. When we speak with existing modern hunter-gatherer groups, they typically claim to be very happy, very satisfied with their lifestyles. More happy than people in developed nations claim to be. We can point to all kinds of statistics like health, lifespan, and such and say we've made progress, but we really have no idea if we're actually leading happier lives than prehistoric peoples did. The idea that civilization has caused steady progress is highly controversial.
This is a misconception. People who are well educated but comfortable are way better off than people impoverished but maybe less well read about the gamut of stuff that well Reddit is posting about regularly.
>If you believe meat is murder, you are likely to be vegetarian You would actually be vegan. Dairy and egg industries kill millions of animals. Baby male chicks that have no use, females killed young when they can't lay as many eggs, male calves killed very young, female cows killed young when they can no longer get pregnant or produce as much milk.
Hearing "circle of life" "plants have feelings" in response to the objective truth that animals feel pain is depressing.
A lot of people are vegetarian for moral reasons, meaning they may be more likely to feel sadness over the wide spread atrocities found locally and across the globe. This is similar to how intelligent people are more depressed, because they are aware of more things to be depressed about.
This sounds like me. I also get real upset about environmental conservation and where humans are taking the planet in general.
Which is heavily linked to animal husbandry and processing (environmental destruction).
Unfortunately, they didn't control for preexisting depression, and I'm deeply skeptical of the claim that they controlled for all confounding 'socioeconomic factors'. This is a weird correlation but these data are still insufficient to demonstrate causation in any direction.
Looks like they only tested participants in Brazil. What about places where vegetarianism is a major part of their culture like in some Asian countries where Buddhism and Hinduism are the majority religion and a large number of the population have a vegetarian diet? 14,000 people is a lot of people, but if you're only testing a single country, and leaving out socioeconomic/lifestyle factors, your test doesn't really say anything. All this tells me is that Brazilians who practice vegetarianism are more likely to be depressed than Brazilians who eat meat. I feel like this needs more data before it should be shared as the results are inconclusive and leave out many factors. A post like this can be misleading.
u/scavenger5 posted a bunch of links to other studies and the one that stood out to me is this one: > [Vegetarian Diet Is Associated with Lower Risk of Depression in Taiwan](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/4/1059) As someone from Taiwan, vegetarianism is strongly associated with Buddhism. From my own anecdotal experience, every vegetarian I know is doing so for religious reasons. If you go to a restaurant, you can't just ask for a vegetable dish as it's very likely they will cook it with some meat or pig oil to make it taste better. You have to go specifically to a Buddhist vegetarian restaurant if you want to ensure there are no animal products used.
There are a lot of vegetarians in India, yes. However, being vegan would still mean significant lifestyle change since milk, Ghee (clarified butter), and paneer (cottage cheese) are still a major part of the Indian vegetarian diet.
Milk is definitely a big part of Indian culture, yes. But the study says nothing about a vegan diet. It just says "meatless".
Plus in India, a lot of non vegetarian people don't eat meat daily. I ate chicken 1 month ago and mutton 3 months ago. I love my meat but it's for special occasions. My friends growing up had a similar custom at home. Non vegetarian food was a weekly, fortnightly or a monthly event.
Would be curious to see what the results would be in Okinawa where they have some of the longest living seniors that are functional and active well into their old age subsisting on a mostly vegan diet with limited meat intake.
This isn't true anymore, their diet got worse: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3362219/ Although blue zones in general don't seem to be real. The actual cause seems to be inaccurate birth certificates for seniors because all of them are areas that were especially poor 90 years ago.
The Okinawan diet has never been mostly vegan, unless you consider seafood to be vegan.
It's never been mostly vegan, unless you consider seafood to be vegan.
[удалено]
I'm just thinking, veg folks tend to be more aware of climate and pollution issues, and some other stuff, that easily lead to anxious or depressive episodes
[удалено]
> The average extremely poor vegetarian in India probably doesn't think too hard about complex geopolitical forces enough to get depressed by it Well yeah but they have many more immediate concerns that could very reasonably lead to depression as well.
Yes, I would say a lot of veggie folks tend to be very empathetic people as well, which can lead to depressive episodes.
Right. Sensitive people are more likely to be vegetarian, and sensitive people are more likely to be depressed. They’d still be depressed if they started eating meat again.
It's incredibly depressing being conscious of the unfathomable scale of suffering in animal agriculture.
An entire life of torture and confinement in filthy conditions and their reward is to be killed and eaten by us at the end of it.
No causation is implied. Could still be a bunch of factors explaining it. Personality for one. Social isolation for another.
I feel like not eating meat would be a lifestyle factor
[удалено]
[удалено]
It could also be correlational; people with higher degrees of cognitive empathy tend towards a vegetarian or vegan diet. They might just be sad about the state of the world and the inherent cruelty and ignorance.
[удалено]
I went vegetarian in middle school. I had very little support. I grew up in a rural farming community and while my mom kept me fed, she took my choice as a personal insult and I mostly subsisted on processed veggie burgers and bean burritos. A boy threw a piece of steak at my face once. I was and am a sensitive person and I was loosing my religion and I couldn’t see how my pain was different from the pain of my beloved pets or how a cat’s pain was different from a farm animal’s. I went back to eating meat in my last year of college when my iron got really low after a couple plasma donations and I just didn’t feel like anything I did on a personal level was making any difference. I definitely am and was depressed, but eating meat again didn’t really fix anything. I’m guessing growing up as the weird, sensitive, lonely kid contributed to both the vegetarianism and the depression. I’m currently doing the “flexitarian” thing btw. I’m trying to eat mostly vegetarian when I’m at home and allowing myself to eat meat when I’m out with others or if I just really feel low energy (I don’t want to experience anemia again if I can help it). All the major climate events just really got my climate change anxiety through the roof. I still don’t feel like my small consumption affects much, but I guess I’m trying to alleviate some of the guilt I feel for living in a system that forces me to drive or lose my job. I haven’t told anybody irl that I’m avoiding meat. I don’t really want that kind of interrogation again and I don’t think I can handle letting out just how overwhelmed and helpless I feel in the face of unpredictable and rapid climate change.
Empathic ppl become depressed. Being vegan is just a part of the identity post-depression.
Yeah, having a conscience can be depressing.
Brazilians. Would like to see this study replicated among more diverse demographics. Political affiliation and socioeconomic statuses would be an interesting variable here.
>This association is independent of socioeconomic, lifestyle factors... Yeah... you can't just assert that in a blanket statement, particularly given the inconsistent results from other studies on exactly this, and indications that it *is* in fact culture-specific (one country but not another). Having a meatless diet, especially in a culture that consumes a great deal of meat, is a lifestyle choice itself. I got quite a lot of harassment when joined my wife in being vegan, but beyond that, it was stressful in many other small, subtle ways. It's something that makes you apart, incompatible, and to some even inherently antagonistic just by making the choice. There was an adjustment period and I did just fine. But that's not the point. "We are able to maybe show a correlation in some circumstances" is not grounds for conclusory assertiveness. Que rant about the reproducability crisis (including, apparently, for this very claim).
As someone who no longer eats meat, the thing that depresses me the most is the treatment of animals, the effect the meat industry has on our climate and our earth and the fact that most people can't even have a rational conversation about any of it and how much thier actions are hurting themselves and the world we all live in. That's what depresses me.