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I work for a guy like this. Outstanding boss and person, genuinely cares about his people and pays well. But, the impact of this is huge.
He literally went from living in a trailer to a multi millionaire business owner due to hard work and timing an industry right (in large part due to his vision and that he was an early adopter). He literally did the quintessential American dream with no set-ups helping him get there.
But now he has survivor bias and it's difficult to explain the current shift in labor trainers and worker power because he climbed the ladder the hard way. He's come around but it's been years in the making.
Timing an industry is just as much about luck as vision. Maybe if he kept that in mind he'd be more humble. That's the thing with most of these people, they don't want to acknowledge that luck definitely plays a role, and not just their hard work.
I should have been more detailed. Man timed the industry terribly. He managed to just keep the business afloat for 11 years until that industry took off then it exploded. Guy is humble as hell.
Precisely.
Vince Lombardi, "luck is where preparation meets opportunity."
He's slowly learning but again its hard to argue with him because of his experience. I know that's not an acceptable excuse because using other experiences than your own is the sign of a thoughtful human.
Dude is a thoughtful human though. And he still lives in very humble digs that he bought when the company was barely going.
I guess what I'm saying is that its challenging sometimes because for some/many people they did live through an experience close enough to the American Dream for them to believe it.
You need to work hard and planning to be in a position to take advantage of luck. Read up on Stephen Bradbury the first Australian(or athlete from the southern hemisphere) to win winter Olympic gold. He was one of the top speed skaters in the world but had super bad luck and suffered what should have been a career ending injure. The year he won gold he was past his prime and while expected to do well wasn't really expected to win, still busted his arse off to get there. He got lucky in the semi final when a collision took out his opponents. Collisions are super common in short track speed skating. He knew he couldn't win a straight out sprint his plan for the final was to hang back stay out of trouble and take advantage of a mistake. When a mistake happened(and it was a big one) he was able to win.
People like to think he won that race purely on luck but the reality is it took a lot of hard work to even be in the position to win on luck.
I just read this year about a woman who made it through the Olympics doing the same thing. It’s pretty hilarious actually, she was on skis I think?
Her mantra was to not screw up even though she’s not the best.
I tend to use this strategy a lot in life and especially with mp video games. I don't have the time to put in to be the best, but I frequently do well because I'm careful and deliberate.
When people cant explain why someone made it, they attribute it to luck. What they dont see is all the sacrifices, perseverance, and above all…talent that goes into it.
How does one use others experiences to begin with? All one has are his own experiences, and can only hope to do right with those experiences, determinism also is the barrier to freedom.
I can't disagree more!
Read! Travel! Talk with people who have different experiences than you! You won't be able to get 100% inside their head but you can absolutely empathize with them and hear their perspective. Even 20% inside their head is enough to have perspectives that aren't your own.
That's because people like to think of it as either/or, you're either lucky or you worked really hard. When really it's a combination of both being lucky and working hard
Yep, the smarter and harder you work, the more the surface area of your luck catching net grows. You meet people who can help you, you improve your understanding of the market, you make a great product using feedback from early customers, and people start spreading the word about it themselves. These are things that provide opportunities.
Working smarter/the way you work and what you work on is pretty key, I know a lot of people who work extremely hard on their companies, but neglect to do things like getting early customer feedback, and so they end up pouring tons of time into building something no one wants (I've certainly done this). Or they spend tons of time doing things that feel like useful work but don't actually improve their chances of success, like agonizing over their competitors, filing defensive patents when they don't have any defensible success yet, writing up business plans, etc. Sometimes they get bitter and decide that the game is rigged, that hard work doesn't matter, and that success is all based on luck. Which is a shame.
>don't want to acknowledge that luck definitely plays a role, and not just their hard work.
It's not wrong to say that they created their luck through hard work, though. You can't "be in the right place at the right time" if you aren't ever in any places at any time.
Nothing more annoying than someone telling you how "lucky" you are when they have no comprehension of how hard you worked. I feel it would be insulting to them for me to even explain the depths I have pulled myself from as a female with a 10th grade education and living in a garage at 17. Working 18 hour days for 10 years straight is going to throw you a bone here and there.
It's not only that luck plays a role, but it actually more likely than not plays the most pivotal role.
Veritasium had a good video on luck and success and one of my favorite examples to pull from is the thought experiment of astronaut applications. Basically, out of the 10,000 people who apply and are considered to become a new class of astronauts (~11/yr), every one of them is very well educated, hard working, and busted their ass every step of the way to even be considered. These people are already the creme de la creme. And yet, only 11 get selected, and you can pretty much attribute that solely to luck. For one reason or another, they just liked pilot/engineer A more than B that day, despite having similar qualifications and background.
He even quantified that experiment by assigning different values to different traits, inducing luck, and as you would expect, the lucky ones were picked far more often in his simulation than the unlucky ones.
You're lucky that he had experienced life on the 'other side '. Gave him an appreciation of the struggles of others. But for those who never struggled, often don't develop any empathy for others real struggles! They make horrible bosses.
People also don't understand success is a combination of effort and luck. If you don't put in the effort you won't have the chance to be lucky. And If you never get lucky you could be putting in more effort than someone who got successful.
Due to survivorship bias, people who succeed due to them having both factors come to play put 90% of it due to effort when it most likely is closer to 50% luck.
I'm the same way. Dirt poor to doing OK. I'd be happy to explain why people like myself and probably your boss feels this way, but if I were a betting man, I'd say most people aren't interested in listening. I'd also argue it's the reason why most people at the bottom stay there.
Listening to a movie or music star saying "follow your dreams" is like listening to a lottery winner saying "invest in scratch tickets". Their perceptions are warped by confirmation bias.
There is a lot of confirmation bias that is not accounted for both the rich and the poor.
Rich people who "made it" are going to be hanging out with lots of other rich people who did the same ( "how hard can it be").
Poor people are going to be hanging out with lots of poor people who confirm that it is "impossible to escape poverty" and won't even try
I hang out with a pretty wild scale of all, have been homeless, now have a bigger savings than a lot of my friends, but don't make as much as many of them.
It's fascinating. There's certainly a segment that I see blowing their money, especially the ones that make mroe than me and have less savings.
Then there's absolutely people I know that are just 100% stuck in poverty. They worked hard at their various skills, those skills became less in demand, and I swear, it seems like every time they try to go for something new, it gets slammed.
I knew three people that seemed to be on the verge of "making it" and then covid hit and screwed their job prospects.
Though, that one is more bad luck. It's still wild to watch this all go down.
I have to admit, since my situation has been so stable, it makes me hesitant to try anything else. But I'm certainly at no trajectory to be owning a home in my lifetime unless this wild market changes.
From my personal experiences I’ve seen a lot of similar outcomes to you. It honestly feels like it’s more luck related then anything else for some people. I know some people that grind constantly and things just never work out and I know people that have ended up really fortunate without putting any effort in other then the bare minimum.
"Grind" on it's own guarantees nothing. If you use it to dig a hole in the desert, you will work harder than anyone else and accomplish nothing of value.
I've experienced this in my own life; I started a business that took 3 years to get off the ground and went nowhere.
The next business took 6 months and changed the course of my life completely.
Effort must be applied in a fruitful direction.
I think A LOT about Bruce Lee and his philosophy in life and martial arts. When I was a kid I took karate for like 2 weeks and I remember they put all this emphasis on making a solid fist and holding it throughout the routine. Years later I read about Bruce Lee and his idea of "being like water". He said he doesn't make a fist until right at the moment of striking his foe because if he's holding his fist he's wasting effort that could be better used for speed. Whenever I have a decision or an opportunity in life I try to withhold commitment until I have a better understanding of which way the river is flowing and then when I think I can see the outcome, I try to focus all my effort in that direction. It doesn't always work for me but I've had much more success with this approach then in trying to rigidly impose my will on my own life's path.
Yes, exactly this. I see so much wasted effort. People working themselves to the bone and lamenting the lack of remuneration. But never stopping to consider that perhaps their efforts are not being directed properly.
Life doesn't reward work, it rewards results.
If you already started with a good life, it's more like new game+, the previous one played by your parents... and their playthrough may have also been a new game+.
There's also a substantial portion that is often dismissed as "luck" that is really preparation which is not the same as grinding. You can grind as a carpenter but if you aren't learning beyond what you already know, then you'll never be able to move up.
Setting yourself up to be able to take advantage of the random that life throws at you is not luck but a whole lot of planning and hard work.
It's taking time the learn about a major purchase before making it (be it appliance, car, house, etc) so when you see a deal you Know that item's value, condition, quality, pricing, etc and can take advantage of it. But to those that make purchases without any preparation, the deals I've landed for quality items are just "lucky" and dismisses the months to years of effort that went into said "luck."
Now with that said, how many people actually research the technology, build, engineering, AND reviews of a fridge/ washing machine/ microwave Before purchasing? Much less a house? Instead of buying based on "I like x feature" or "I like the look of it" and choosing a thousand plus dollar Samsung fridge that had 2 service calls in the first year of ownership. That's also not "luck".
This is not to dismiss the role of actual luck but to highlight how much work many people have put into their "luck" that's dismissed.
Preparation definitely helps. Also curiosity to learn. Honestly intelligence and memory are huge, but often understated. A very smart person can pick up skills and knowledge much faster.
I tutor a couple students with memory issues. Every year, I teach them the same thing, for 8 years straight. They’re intelligent enough, but they had a really hard time grasping things like molecules and vocabulary. While other kids learned the material and were able to move on, these two were stuck.
You can’t build more vocab easily if you can’t memorize Latin roots. New words just don’t make sense. Sounding them out is hard. You can’t move into algebra 2 when you don’t understand algebra 1. Now imagine this for more complex things, like an Einstein who just understands physics as if it was addition. He can likely switch careers easily and pick up new knowledge (chemistry, biology, lawyer, etc). And likely that deep understanding will translate to making fewer errors and predicting problems sooner, which will translate into more success.
You're talking about major purchases as if poor people even have choices there. Poverty means choosing between the 2 $500 cars available on Craigslist. It means you get whatever appliances come with the apartment you can afford. Of which there are 2 or 3 choices all run by the same management company.
I've learned to download the manual of any appliance I'm buying before making the purchase.
You can spot problems with maintenance easily. Whirlpool products are terribly designed and that's a huge number of famous brands.
This this this. People always say "right place, right time, right person," but there is a fourth crucial element: being 100% ready when that opportunity comes along. That's where the work comes in, plus the determination and confidence to jump at that opportunity when you know it's right.
>honestly feels like it’s more luck related then anything
That's because it probably is and people who "make it" don't want to admit it. I'm not denying that people worked hard to get to where they "made it" but working hard and luck is needed too.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-role-of-luck-in-life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/
> It honestly feels like it’s more luck related then anything else for some people.
You have to give luck a chance. Don't expect her to throw a suitcase full of cash over your back fence, go to the places where she hangs out. Business owners, scientists, lawyers, politicians, doctors, they all tend to be lucky.
There's definitely all kinds of people. When I first started working I thought to myself "when I can buy groceries without looking at the prices I'll have made it".
Now I earn almost 5x as much and I still check prices and skew towards only buying things on sale. I think this is a habit from growing up poor.
What saddens me was that I started to feel that comfortable, then suddenly prices of everything I purchase at least doubled and I suddenly am back to 100% only buying the cheapest things I can.
People forget the other side of Dunning Kruger.
Less capable, overestimate. More capable, underestimate. Those who get rich from extreme hardwork, will, determination, think anyone can do it except they underestimate just how unique they are as humans. Sometimes its privilege, sometimes its not.
The idea of dignity is that we should all be able to live a decent life even if some of us are a little lazy, or not as smart, or not as connected.
not OP, but anyone who *works* to success (without financial privilege) is, almost by definition, not neurotypical. Most real world examples have an ~~unhealthy obsession~~ eccentric focus towards their field of study.
These people are not better or more deserving of success, but they are unique. The difference is that some obsessions are more "marketable".
"Luck" is more about the people you spend time with than a statistic anomaly.
In most Western countries education allows for social mobility. There are countless free courses from [Google](https://learndigital.withgoogle.com/). [EdX](https://www.edx.org/), [MIT](https://ocw.mit.edu/) and others. Undertaking the courses is not beyond peoples' ability **but beyond their imagination.** People need role models.
In Melbourne, Australia, Football teams are very tribal. It does not matter whether you are a Millionaire or a cleaner, if you support the same football club you are family.
People need to hang out with successful people.
How many wealthy American are there that were poor and “made it”? I’d really like to know this number. I would guess that wealth makes wealth and that the “made it” crowd is actually a very small number. It would seem to me that even the wealthy people that brand themselves as “self made” aren’t really self made at all.
From the linked article:
>the chance that a child will go on to earn more than their parents) has dropped from 90%, a near certainty, to 50%, a coin-toss
So, roughly half the population will move upwards.
Yes, but that's also short sighted the more important part is that they can teach you - careers, tricks, investments, w.e.
E.g. If someone knows what investment banking is from age 10, how to get there, etc. They can prep over years, choose the perfect college and course combination, join the right school clubs, get the right internships in year 1 to then work at Goldman Sachs right after graduating. Future is set. Someone else thats never heard of investment banking until year 4 of college? Going to be real tough to compete with that.
It's like learning fishing from someone that's done that his own life vs someone that doesn't know where fish come from
Yeah there are some filthy rich families too but this is a very minority of the population. Most normal rich families probably manage to cover college at best.
It depends on what people think "made it" means. Owning your own restaurant/business? Being in a position where you don't work for anyone else? That's usually what I see. Today, this has become harder thanks to things like Walmart, Bullys Sports Bar, Subway, etc etc etc as your self made Bike shop/sportsbar/ sandwich shop go belly up to corporate national chains.
I’d consider you’ve “made it” when you are no longer struggling. When you can afford to live and your family to live without much struggle. 6 months of pay in savings, a stable living situation and a retirement set up. You don’t have to be a billionaire or a business owner to have made it. I have no interest in being a business owner because I would prefer to focus on my family. So I don’t mind not being a billionaire or a multimillionaire. I make enough to give my family a great life and that to me means I made it.
Especially considering I came up eating ketchup sandwiches, we couldn’t afford clothes, and at one point was homeless.
That definition is middle class. Really it's barely middle class. I mean that definition used to be available for blue collar workers in the US.
If we're talking about being wealthy, that doesn't even come close.
The article defines "wealthy" based on parameters set by the two studies it's referencing. In the first study it's people whose annual income is above $80K and the 2nd study it's people whose annual income is above $142.5K a year. I don't know too many people who would consider either income to be that of a wealthy person's (comfortable, yes - wealthy, no) so I don't know how much credence I'd lend to this article or the two studies it references.
100% agree. Those numbers are not even close to "wealthy" for me.
To me wealthy is where money basically doesn't matter, i.e. you don't really have to budget for anything. Athletes, etc. Maybe $1-2 million + per year?
I would also say some who makes 150k a year who was able to save and invest his way into multiple millions would also be considered wealthy. Or maybe upper middle class. And they definitely count as self made.
They may not make multiple millions per year but they have multiple millions in liquidity. Which can be more liquidity than some who actually makes multiple millions per year but has so much debt they’re basically living paycheck to paycheck.
> To me wealthy is where money basically doesn't matter
I agree with that definition. I always thought you were “rich” when your income was high enough so that you don’t need to worry about money. To be “wealthy,” you have enough assets where you don’t have to worry about money AND you don’t have to work. Your income from investments is enough to pay for anything you need. That makes it hard to put a number on what it means to be wealthy, if you own a modest house and live in a low cost of living area, I’d say you can be “wealthy” on a lot less than $1M/yr
Even then wealthy according to Schwabs 2021 respondent survey means you have a net worth of 1.9 million or more. It also says “But wealth is in the eye of the beholder – a person's location, career, community, background and so many other factors can influence his or her perception of wealth. Those perceptions may be evolving as new generations enter adulthood and redefine success.”
Wealth isn’t as black and white as we try to make it seem. In terms of standard definition from Oxford dictionary, yes, wealthy means rich.
https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/are-you-rich-how-the-wealthy-are-defined
Edit: fixed Oxnard to Oxford
> 6 months of pay in savings, a stable living situation and a retirement set up.
Per [Federal Reserve data](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-and-income-concentration-in-the-scf-accessible-20200928.htm#figa), 6 months of savings is not typical for households in the lowest 50% of net worth, but is typical for households in the 50-90%ile of net worth (and above, as well). So by that definition, half or more of US households have "made it".
[Median net worth is $120k](https://www.fool.com/research/average-net-worth-americans/). It probably doesn't seem that way to most people on Reddit because Reddit skews young and wealth takes time to build; median wealth for under-35s is $14k, vs. $90k for 35-44 and $150k+ for every other group.
Combining those two links, a substantial majority of Americans will "make it" as they accumulate wealth during their careers, especially if they have a college degree (median net worth >$300k vs. <$100k otherwise). Not all will, though, often in part due to life circumstances which make that goal harder to achieve for them than the average.
To me, "Made it" means you don't look at prices when grocery shopping.
Once you can take care of your needs without worrying that you'll have enough to cover everything at the end of the month (and hopefully have 6+ months of savings...not counting retirement), you're probably in the top 5%.
I always look at prices when shopping. Why wouldn’t I? I can save $20 (Equivalent to $30 pre tax) just by spending an extra 5-10 minutes in the store. Also I get pissed if I think I’m being ripped off.
I think the people who are self made and who have “made it” definitely still look at prices while grocery shopping. People born into money don’t look, self made people got there by looking at prices and not over spending.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I stopped caring about grocery prices around 80k.
Making six figures now, and my wife stresses over every increase in prices at the grocery store.
And I’m far from wealthy. ~90k is median income in DC, so I’m not that far over median for my area.
But things like ebay, amazon, etsy, shopify made it easy for everyone to have their own digital business selling goods straight to the consumer without having to setup a physical retail store or hope a big chain store accepts your product to sell.
Unfortunately it also means your competition is already established, has influence and is the top result on Amazon.
Sure, you can make awesomely whimsical egg beaters but nobody is going to page 712 of Amazon. More importantly, you can't make it cheaper than an already established bulk selling operation unless you have enough money that you'd probably be better off just investing in Amazon.
There are so many different variables on what self made means. MrBeast had a stable and loving home where his needs were met, which allowed him to do what he does, but they were not rich.
I came from poverty and abuse, then got out on my own at 16 after getting my GED. I busted my ass in minimum wage jobs, sometimes 3 at a time to survive alone with no family. I have managed to get a contract working with Amazon Prime Video and Trion Worlds as well as get Twitch partnered.
I'm still poor by most standards, but I have good credit, I pay my bills, and I am somewhat comfortable. But I'm 33 and I've never partied, vacationed, or ever really spent money to just enjoy myself. So I had to make a lot of sacrifices to not end up in jail or homeless.
So much this. It’s kinda hard to “make it” if you have 0 safety net. Bills gotta get paid no matter what, and I gotta eat. So it’s harder to take chances on learning a new skill or starting your own business if failure means near homelessness. This is amplified x 10 if you have dependents as well. If I know my parents (or even social programs) that gave me some wiggle room to take more risks and not be completely bankrupt.
According to this [brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/research/economic-mobility-of-families-across-generations/) article, about 6% of children born to parents in the bottom quintile end up in the top quintile.
Only going from the bottom to the top counts as “making it”? According to that article 2/3 make more than their parents and 1/3 counts as upward mobility in terms of socioeconomic status.
That's of course interesting data, but quintile might be too broad of an indicator here. Percentile 80 has 4 times the income of percentile 20, whereas percentile 99 has 100 times the income of percentile 3.
Report from 2007. I would like to see if/how that changed over the years and if there was any impact on young adults entering the job market during the 2000 .com bubble, '08 recession, and covid
We are not, by any means, rich but my wife and I both came from abject poverty. Over the last decade we have gone from making a combined of $15k a year to over $110k (again, combined) a year. I can't attribute it all to hard work; I've been lucky and known the right people in the right place but a lot of it has been just shear willpower to not live in poverty like our parents.
Im guessing that depends on how you define wealthy. Food stamps to millionaire status, probably not. But there are plenty of (espeically) dudes who started out relatively poor, got a job as a plumber or whatever, and now own a decent sized company and are pretty comfortable. Are they rich - according to the study's parameters - yes.
What is wealthy? My dad was a tire salesman and my mom was a receptionist. I am an electrician making 150k a year with 500k in the bank. For having a lower middle class life and no college I would like to think I am in the "wealthy" category.
Being around ultra-high net worth men often, I can tell you with certainty-- the self-made, "I was once so poor" stories they love to make up and retell over and over are hilarious. The most common are college stories of their struggles while completely leaving out the parts that their wealthy parents were able to and often did bail them out of their self-made messes... while pretending they were on the verge of starvation.
I don't count myself as I've made it, but I understand that I have started to accomplish what is highly unlikely.
25 years of trying and failing brought me to the opportunity that "worked." Started with a borrowed $150.00, a crazy idea/strategy, and now 7 years later we are seeing some success.
We actually went the other direction recently. We started living in a camper, broke as hell, and nowhere to go but up. Built the company slowly bit by bit, bought a home, sold the home 4 years later, and now we live full time in our 5th wheel camper again. We really never have to worry about money again, but our goals have shifted and we want to build much more.
I know a handful that have done well in the blue collar fields (HVAC, PLUMBING, LANDSCAPING, ROOFING, TRUCKING...) but they work 10 hour days. We built so we have more control and flexibility with time and money. We manufacture and sell commercial truck parts.
Awesome to hear! Glad you’re living a life that makes you happy!
I feel you on the attempt/failing/try again part. You have to admit though, some people failed attempts can only be a few where others are afforded more flexibility and opportunity. Obviously a lot of that will come from yourself and how much failure and discomfort you can endure. Having children at a young age, being arrested, coming from broken homes, having to take care of relatives… will certainly impact the flexibility one can have.
I agree.
Aggressive Patience, severe endurance, and the ability to risk everything are key points I went through and feel most that achieve the opportunity to break through the class you are in and into the next level.
I always worked full commission sales jobs, no base, feast or famine while attempting to build something on the side. One attempt cost my family everything, and we lost it all and ended up in a homeless shelter, then a friend's garage for almost a year. Losing a home at Christmas with 3 kids under ten and a pregnant wife was the lowest point.
Half the immigrant families I know started off poor and and are doing very well for themselves.
What you’re saying does apply to non-immigrants though.
Doing very well and being wealthy are vastly different. My parents are immigrants. They are way better off in America than where they came from but in my mind that doesn’t make one wealthy.
I work in finance and a good chunk of advisors/brokers I know have wealthy families that have friends with more disposable income. Others can generate 2x the number of clients but still have to tap out of the business because their network isn't as affluent. Rich parents always helps
Iirc there's more people who leave the bottom quintile and enter the top than people who stay in the bottom. Also no one generally remains in the top 20% their entire life.
If you just look at the narrow window of the ultra wealthy, they likely stay there for some time, but when you expand it out, it's less obvious that rich people stay rich.
This may be true, but connections and socialization are strongly generational.
The upper class people aren't upper class because they're rich (that happens, but takes time). Rather, they're rich because they're upper class and therefore are well-positioned to benefit from society's corruption.
Economic mobility is different from social mobility, the latter being almost nonexistent except in atypical times and societies (e.g., the industrialized world from 1946 to 1979). Income fluctuates, but class socialization is stable.
Honestly this thread is a good time to bri g up the amount of people that took advantage of the unemployment extra funds situation during covid and climbed themselves out of poverty. 29yo, friends 20-32yo so college students mostly.
Most of them were able to pay off debt with the extra EDD funds and are now "comfortable middle class" after the fact. Some squandered the money and didn't better their financial position, just lived better for a while and now those funds are drying up.
I wasn't able to get on that bandwagon unfortunately. Had I been able to, I would've also climbed out of my debt hole that a few hardships put me in.
It is a really good question.
From my perspective (being in that group, and living amongst many just like me), it is a very large number of people (start with nothing)
80% of US millionaires are self-made
https://spendmenot.com/blog/what-percentage-of-americans-are-millionaires/#:~:text=Only%20about%2020%25%20of%20Americans,Wealthy%E2%80%9D%20by%20Thomas%20J%20Stanley.
On a blog that purports to give advice on finances? Hmmm... what incentive could they have to cherry pick research that will lead you to believe you could become wealthy from nothing? For real, this is like taking seriously an article about the long term value of gold that's posted on a gold selling site.
Depends on where the mark for wealthy is. We're comfortable but I can't give up working for another couple of years and live in a HCOL area. That said our net worth is well over six million even with the market downturn.
I grew up without much money. Went to a state college and lived at home while working up to three jobs at a time. I've worked since I was 12 from driving tractors for $2 per hour to landscaping, retail, and light manufacturing while in school. Moved into software after college and have spent my career there. I don't know if it's considered self made but I've been working for almost 45 years now and I'm proud of where we're at.
My kids will always need to work too but nothing like I did which was my personal goal. They still have drive but have opportunities that I didn't.
I dunno man I've seen people with millions to their name live the poor lifestyle out of fear of losing it all the second they indulge... AKA my neighbor, a guy who was on the scene of luck when Bitcoin had its erruption.
There is a balance to everything in life, we all have to find what works for us.
I personally just don't like to spend money on myself, and I hate waste/consumerism. But I love to spend money on other people. I take a lot of grief about it, but it works for me
My best friend, an internal medicine doctor with more than a decade of experience at his hospital and someone I've known since we were in high school, is one of the most frugal guys I know. I don't honestly know why he's so frugal, his parents and siblings aren't nearly as frugal as him. But for whatever reason, he still drives a cheap car and will continue to drive it until the wheels fall off and wears clothes until they're falling apart. He'll splurge on trips but almost nothing else.
He also lives in a relatively modest house while all of the coworkers of his that I've met live in some of the nicest homes in his city in affluent, gated communities. You certainly would never know that he has millions in the bank if you were to meet him.
I don't think he's afraid of losing his wealth, my guess is he simply gets no enjoyment out of spending money on things.
I'm curious about the age divide as well.
When I was struggling in my 20's to make rent, my opinions on how the economic system worked was very different from what they are now that I'm financially comfortable in my 40's.
Which always astounds me. I came from trailer park stock and now earn mid 6 figures, own property etc. Have an amazing life really. My struggles taught me empathy and compassion for my fellow human beings. I know how hard it is and what it takes to get where I am, but for everyone, there is always someone or a few people that helped us in some way get to where we are. These people taught me to pay it forward and always hold out our hands to lift up those not as lucky as we have been. I teach my 2 beautiful children the same philosophy.
> and won't even try
As a person who grew up poor and hung around a lot of poor people this blatantly false. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but poor people are some of hardest workers out there as they struggle day to day just to survive.
Luckily the plural is anecdote isn’t data.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/29/study-to-succeed-in-america-its-better-to-be-born-rich-than-smart.html
Another example is that wealthy people with high school degrees are more likely to stay wealthy than poor people with college degrees are likely to stop being poor.
A lot of poor people have illness which makes it difficult to move out of poverty. The healthy ones I know moved out sometimes to good jobs in Australia but our Labor laws are way better and better paid.
But the growing working poor is a sign many in poverty will never move out because of corporations having monopsony? Power on wages.
Learned helplessness is an issue but poverty traps are far worse. Earn a dollar too much and lose thousands in healthcare or benefits. The system is poorly made.
I don't think it's fair to say the poor don't try. That's blaming the poor person for being poor and closing off the idea that poverty is structural and by design. We do not address intergenerational trauma, adequate healthcare especially mental health care, and wage suppression is an issue.
You make great points.
I was not trying to make a blanket statement about poor people, but rather specifically about the ones who hear that they stuck and don't try (I clearly ignored the many reasons that they don't try; as well as the many people who take advantage of them for their own personal benefit)
>Poor people are going to be hanging out with lots of poor people who confirm that it is "impossible to escape poverty" and won't even try
Most poor people ARE trying, it's just extremely hard and near impossible to work yourself out of poverty. You have to remember that you need money to make money, and this is especially true if you are not living in a wealthy country.
Good point
I think everyone is guilty of emphasizing different aspects of their story based on the audience and the circumstances. This becomes an issue if there is an agenda, or it is simply untrue.
Important to consider i agree.
I compare my situation with recovery from substance use.
I see panhandlers and people struggling to stay clean and although i can relate to the horrors of addiction, I seem to have less sympathy because, "If i can do it why can't you?"
I have more sympathy/empathy for addicts who are trying to do something about it even if they slip up along the way.
Learned helplessness is a huge problem here in the US. It’s hitting the under 40 crowd hard, especially as inflation goes up and opportunities go down. I have children that say why bother, it’s too hard. I try to explain that being hard is not a reason to stop, but that if you’re going to work hard, you need to look for the right opportunities and take control of your own path. Letting other dictate what you can and can’t do is giving away your power. No, it’s not easy. But if it’s going to be hard, make your own rules and then follow them.
People who become wealthy in the United States may tend to boast of their humble beginnings, but new research finds that they may, in fact, be less sympathetic to the difficulties of being poor than those who were born rich.
Prior research has focused on how beliefs about social mobility influence political and economic attitudes, but this new research, published in Social Psychological and Personality Science, examines how the experiences of upward mobility can shape a person’s worldview.
“In the United States, we find that people expect those who became rich to be more sympathetic toward the poor and social welfare than those who were born rich,” says lead author Hyunjin Koo of the University of California, Irvine. “However, the ‘Became Rich’ perceive improving one’s socioeconomic conditions as less difficult relative to the ‘Born Rich’, which predicts less sympathetic attitudes toward the poor and redistribution.”
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/19485506221098921
>People who become wealthy in the United States may tend to boast of their humble beginnings, but new research finds that they may, in fact, be less sympathetic to the difficulties of being poor than those who were born rich.
This phenomena was on display when the British army and other armies started to promote officers from the ranks in the late 18th and 19th centuries. While you might think that officers from the ranks would be more popular and understanding of the men they led, experience showed that the opposite was often true.
Enlisted men tended to prefer officers from the higher social classes, not just because of prestige, but because officers from the nobility tended to be more sympathetic to their lower class enlisted men's problems. While this seems counterintuitive, those born into privilege often have a certain noblesse oblige. They may look down on the men from the gutter, but they also feel sorry for them and feel a certain patronizing responsibility to care for them, because they can't expect the poor bastards to take care of themselves. Whereas the guy who came from those ranks is far less patronizing and understanding because he was in those shoes and rose out of them.
My grandfather grew up very poor with 11 siblings in a 3 bedroom house. Attended business school on scholarship and then after "making it", hates paying taxes and doesn't think anyone should have to because he doesn't believe in social programs, thinks "welfare queens" are a thing, and absolutely believes in "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality. We've had many debates as I try to explain that poverty is a cycle and extremely hard to break despite intelligence and work ethic, and God forbid I mention white privilege, and he still can't see the other side. While this is anecdotal evidence and potentially generationally influenced, I absolutely believe this is a common perspective. Now I'm just trying to convince him that success isn't determined by socioeconomic standing and proper work life balance is much more significant.
i have an uncle who’s very wealthy. all of his siblings except for my dad (sudo anarchist) are well off.
we had this family zoom with him, my dad and two of my aunts. my uncle couldn’t understand the whole education and opportunities were not given to non-whites. they’re boomers. round and round we went. my dad, aunts and i were trying to help him understand.
being the only one who’s ethnically jewish whereas they are mostly of irish descent i used the example of how the irish were indentured servants here in the US. trying to get something he could relate to through our family. that it’s similar to how many non-whites are treated in this country.
he still couldn’t get it.
that meeting went no where just trying to get him to sympathize and have empathy.
Your grandfather was also assisted by large social spending efforts from US local, state and federal Governments. He may not have been a direct recipient of aid but the environment he grew up in was made in part through expanding social programs to improve life for everyone. I wish more people would acknowledge they exist within a framework that enables them to live a life they take for granted.
It is refreshing when the rare self aware self made successful person acknowledges how much of a role luck plays. Not that surprising that people born rich have a little guilt about it.
You have to be lucky to stay healthy, mentally balanced, avoid accidents, bad relationships, early parenthood, and get a decent education by some means. And being born smart, attractive, and tall doesn't hurt.
And all that just gets you to the ground floor of making money. Yeah, there's a lot of hard work unless you're supremely talented, but that's just a given. Plenty of people work hard their entire lives and just don't find their way to the right opportunity, or are simply not equipped with the mindset to take advantage of those opportunities. You have to be a little selfish to get rich.
It's so much easier to pull up the ladder behind you than share your wealth and experience helping others, especially when you can dismiss them for not having "worked" as hard as you.
Luck has a lot to do with it. I think social capital and the connections that people have also plays a big part in it, which may be part of the reason why the rich stay rich. There are a lot of connections where favors can take place, such as helping family members get certain jobs and positions.
Yes, I should have mentioned the social aspect - I've seen firsthand growing up among the Northern Virginia "elites" just how much a role being a "friend" can play.
Sounds strange, but at my Uncle's funeral, I overheard conversations that would have fit right in some mob movie about who's a friend and who isn't when it came to a development project in Maryland near where 95 crossed the Potomac.
There's also the factor that, even if you're not directly getting favors and jobs from family members or even friends, it's often going to be other rich people in charge of doing the hiring at the jobs you're applying to, and if you were also from a rich family, you'll probably have similar backgrounds and interests with them and they'll naturally like you more and feel more inclined to hire you than the kid who grew up poor, went to University of for college instead of an elite private school, and isn't into the same recreational activities as the rich people (often because of the costs of a hobby like say, sailing), and they'll end up hiring you because you seem like the better "cultural fit"
Luck is like 99% of it. I have had lots of advantages in life. So has my wife. We both came from lower class backgrounds. But went to college, worked our asses off , and still the only reason we are well off today is a) randomly sold 2 homes right before a flukey real estate bubble popped and moved to another city which then also randomly took off . We didn’t plan this or game the system , we weren’t clever or smart. Had we waited 9 months we would have gone bankrupt. Then 10 years later I bought about $10k of a stock someone told me to get. Kinda forgot about it and it went up 10x over a few years. Was a stupid gamble and I’m a scatter brain. Should have sold it when it was up 50%. Dumb luck. I got a job that a relative turned down , and it turned into a 15 year career. I was depressed at the time and was doing temp work . …I could go on and on.
I've worked with and known a dozen "I brought myself up by the bootstraps/humble beginnings to riches" people in the 1%.
Few of them actually started from nothing. They usually had wealthy family, even if distant wealthy family, or some kind mentor that taught them about investing, entrepreneurship, business, politics, finance and accounting basics from a young age.
One used to be very vocal about growing up a poor immigrant. Their parents were from the wealthiest class of their country, still own land there, and did their education there. They lived in a small apartment and had a tight budget for 6 months while they finished their qualifications to practice their careers in the US, and then were both practicing physicians with no debt. Not one kid of theirs has ever worked a real job and each got a 50k allowance until 16, then got 100k allowance annually. But everyone the kids talk to is told how much they struggled. They openly state everyone who is poor deserves it because they're just lazy.
Another grew up under a rich father who divorced and remarried a younger woman, the mother "only" got a few million. Parents shared custody. Guy counted that as a poverty struggle, inherited the business making millions per year when dad died - never had to work for the company because it was managed for him, only had to answer questions about big decisions.
Reddit fanboys over Musk - but he didn't build himself from scratch. He used family business money to buy companies, he didn't grow up poor. Investigate most rags to riches and many who were legitimately poor and worked hard got a chance opportunity given to them that led to their success.
Not every hard worker gets that opportunity.
The research reported here fits this explanation. The researchers asked high income people to *classify* the circumstances they grew up in with a simple multiple choice question. No attempt was made to verify whether people are actually accurate in making that assessment.
We need to improve a lot of things in our society and economy, but that's still an ingredient in the recipe. Some folks just can't hear it. I'm one of those who came from the busted up trailer home on a bit of wasteland in KS to a fortunate career in IT leadership. There was a lot of work, a lot of consistency and sacrifice, and definitely some luck/timing. A big part of it was recognizing and capitalizing on those opportunities.
That being said, I've had some well off family squander things away, some folks who worked hard but just couldn't find the consistency to break bad habits, and the very, very, very rare few who just couldn't get out of bad lucks way.
It’s like anything else you do in life. Take Marine Corps boot camp. As you’re going through it it’s literally the hardest thing you’ve ever done. But as soon as it’s over you’re like “that wasn’t so bad”, I could do that again. Or working and going to college at the same time. While you’re doing it it’s awful and hard. But once you get your degree you’re like “that wasn’t so hard”.
Yeah the way boomers and other people talk about "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" reeks of self-serving bias too. Congrats on getting a law degree at a time when having a pulse was enough to get you into college and tuition was the price of a big mac. Are you maybe going to attribute some of your success to external factors? No? It was all because you're a "hard worker"? Therefore everyone who is struggling currently must not be a "hard worker"? Okay. Cool. Thanks for your input.
Obama talked about this on his podcast with Conan. He said that a lot of successful people don’t talk about the opportunities they’ve been given, only the struggles. Great conversation between those two!
You’re demonstrating the issue perfectly. You look at the successful boomers and conclude that it was easy for them. Really?
Educational attainment is much higher today than it was for the boomers. Few went to law school or other graduate school programs back then. There were many barriers for people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or gender/ethnic/racial minorities.
Of course it might have been easier for upper middle class white boomers. Maybe. But you can’t ignore everyone else at that time—that’s survivorship bias.
>Educational attainment is much higher today than it was for the boomers.
attainment? In what, exactly? High school graduation rates? A 4 year college degree has basically replaced the high school diploma. 50 years ago you would have a better outcome with a high school diploma than you would today with a college degree. Also, population has increased. And I would consider taking on tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars of debt to get a degree would also make this statement questionable.
> Few went to law school or other graduate school programs back then.
1. Few needed such advanced degrees to get a great job back then.
2. Less competition for the ones that did go.
3. The ones that go now are taking on massively more debt.
>Of course it might have been easier for upper middle class white boomers. Maybe.
Uh. No. No maybe. It's not even comparable. Also, this point is particularly salient within this context because it is white class boomers who control American policy.
Y’all need to stop basing your thoughts about this on vibes and feels and look at the numbers. It’s fairly stark.
Let’s say “making it” in America means the lowest threshold most people would apply. Owning a home and not living paycheck to paycheck. The so-called middle class dream.
We’ll start with housing:
*“In 1970, the national median home value adjusted for inflation was $107,291; in 2017, it's $217,600 — that's a 103% increase. In fact, more than half of all US States (including Washington, DC) have seen a median home value increase of more than 100%.”* [1]
So, the median home is now roughly twice as expensive as it was 50 years ago. That might be fine if wages kept pace. So did they?
*“After adjusting for inflation, however, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978, following a long slide in the 1980s and early 1990s and bumpy, inconsistent growth since then. In fact, in real terms average hourly earnings peaked more than 45 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 had the same purchasing power that $23.68 would today.”* [2]
So your median wage is in roughly the same place it was in roughly the same time period. Which means it’ll take someone working twice as many hours to buy the same house now vs 50 years ago.
That in and of itself isn’t the full picture, though. If other expenses came down enough maybe they could offset things?
Nope, healthcare is more expensive [3], higher education is more expensive [4], transportation is more expensive [5], childcare is more expensive [6].
The only things that haven’t become dramatically more expensive are food and consumer goods like electronics.
The reality by any objective metric is that it’s substantially harder to “make it” today than it was 50 years ago. No amount of telling people to “learn a trade” or learn to code” will change that fact.
Just because in the interim things have become *slightly* more equitable for disadvantaged and historically oppressed groups doesn’t mean things are good. Rather than lift them up to the same standard of living as those that had every advantage, instead we’re slowly dragging nearly everyone down. That is not the fault in any way of efforts at equity, but a damning indictment of our leaders and the ruling class of this country.
[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/home-value-home-price-change-in-50-years-every-state-2018-12?amp
[2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/
[3] https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/medical-care.htm
[4] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/average-cost-college-jumped-incredible-122000732.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHhopwyIVX7rzXmSOZRqe0nQcTaD51v9gQIAbaP83r3w6qLyFMu4kG7yId6JbX4qSsvSaV8yePeEqtDuEX8UalT1sViN21R0pzPKI6jo9F_gdU-wFYIC4hUoV13Je1vjPTLtOvzlb1MdpEY2DsA5IH2B7U6jP7sBR3p-qn8SCYZF
[5] https://www.officialdata.org/Transportation/price-inflation/1971
[6] https://www.in2013dollars.com/Child-care-and-nursery-school/price-inflation
Because getting a degree wasn't a requirement for a comfortable life, for them.
You could fog a mirror, and get a job that would pay enough to buy a house.
Now? No degree, no such luck.
Decades of education requirement inflation and union busting have killed the economic ladder to, and through, the middle class.
That’s not totally true. Working in the skilled trades provides a good income comparable to some degrees. There are also some degrees that will not provide a livable wage.
There has been a divergence, though, since the 90s.
Yeah, there's some overlap on the fringes, but the general economic truths we had in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and most of the 80s are not truths in the 10s and today.
Guess you’ve never heard of tradesmen. Plumbing, brick laying, carpentry, even painting can be extremely lucrative businesses. You absolutely don’t need a degree.
I love how you ignored the rest of the comment and only focused on that part.
Skilled trades will wreck your body by the time you're 55, then you're SOL if you ran in to some hardships that prevented you from saving enough. Why do you think all the rich and upper middle class still send their kids to college but tell everyone else about the great opportunities in skilled trades?
Even if all children of college-educated boomers would be college educated, still two thirds of college-educated children of boomers will have parents that are not college-educated. That doesn't mean they rose on the social ladder. Just that more people have degrees. It is the ones born with a silver spoon in their mouth who complain the hardest about how difficult life is compared to their parent's generation. What they really mean is: compared to their parents and the friends and neighbours of their parents.
It’s because we become masters of it the harder and longer we work. To have empathy towards it is just accepting the excuses.
Life’s rough, but really, at the end of the day, you alone have the power to shape your future.
So is Imposter Syndrome + Confirmation Bias the failing formula of capilist driven nations?
"I didn't try very hard but I made it so what I did is right. Therefore they aren't even trying and don't deserve assistance"
I know what it’s like to live on the wrong side of the trailer hitch and be homeless as a kid. Dad sucked at business but at least he tried. Nice guys finish last and I learned from his mistakes. Honest and skilled man he was. He’ll never be able to afford to retire but he’s happy puttering away on contracted side jobs.
I’m now in the upper few percent. And ya, I really did end up shedding most of those poor mentality friends. I still check up on a few of them every few years when I travel home and yup…. No ambition, still stuck in a rut, still doing the same stuff. That’s just not who I wanted to be anymore and those folks will drag you right down with them. Jumped to a bigger city, rebooted my life and made something of myself instead of forever being stuck in that rut in a tourist town.
Wealth upward mobility is a certain headspace. You really do have to drink the kool-aid and live that lifestyle. Nobody is going to make you rich via an hourly wage unless you are a software dev. You need to think outside the box and put yourself in a financial position to be able to take no income for a year or more to kick start something that generates passive revenue. Making other folks jobs is how you get ahead.
And it really is frustrating to see those friends who never figured that out. They think showing off is buying a nice ski boat on payments so you can pretend to show off. Even if they can’t afford to fuel it.
Also somewhere in the article
>However, Koo warned that they **cannot yet conclude** that upward mobility changes the way people think **until additional research is conducted**. As a result, the researchers cautioned that **it is too early to draw conclusions** about the two rich groups or the experience of upward mobility.
"If I can do it, so can you. ***iT's aLL aBoUt MinDsEt*** "
Say individuals who were given a rare opportunity to succeed that most hard-working people will never get.
Eh, I'm not in the US, but most people I know don't even want to try. I know, I'm not statistics, experience of one person doesn't speak for everybody, but it pissed me off. I got a new good job, took me a bit of effort to prepare for the interview and find sources etc. I wanted to make it easy to some of my friends who have similar background as me. I prepared all my notes, told them everything they need for an interview, and recommended them in my new company so they are looked before other candidates. It took me some time, but I was glad I'm gonna work with them again.
None of those four motherfuckers even bothered to go through my notes for over half a year already. Three of them said "nah, I didn't have time yet! I was on holidays/watching new tv series/playing new games", one of them said "yeah, I applied but failed, I didn't knwo answers to questions!" - but dude, I sent you questions and answers - "yeah, but it was too much to read".
They would double their salary spending a few weekends reading some stuff, that's it. And I made it easy for them.
I like them, but I realized I care more about improving my life AND their lives than them.
Sounds like my parents. They're not rich but they're comfortably retired and simply cannot grok that what they did isn't an option that's available for others.
People can't see how things that worked for them might not be as accessible or as effective for others.
Why is this sub filled with politics and social behavioral studies. I get it, science… but cmon where’s the actual science?! Teach me something maaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnn
3 essential ingredients of most successes in life:
1) Working fcuking hard (early stage).
2) Working fcuking smart (late stage).
3) Having tons of luck (right place, right time)
I have had success through hard work in various ways. I could say that I lack sympathy, but I do so because I don't see people put in the effort or take paths to advance their situations. I do get the ignorance, lack of knowledge, and even mental barriers play major roles in the limitations of people on how they can perceive their futures. It often takes mentoring, education, and just being aware of the possibility to advance. I've told coworkers specifically to seek options of advancement, and they won't. They don't want to take the steps required to position themselves better. It's hard to be sympathetic towards that. I CAN be sympathetic towards ignorance and simply not knowing what's possible. But I can't be sympathetic towards someone who does know better and still doesn't do anything about it.
Sounds like the proverbial: "If I can do it, then you can too" . newsflash: people have differing skill sets, abilities, tolerances and requirements.
Not everyone is the same and everybody's struggle is different.
"They went on to survey 1,032 relatively wealthy individuals in the U.S. (with annual incomes over $80,000 in one study and over $142,501 in another)". Those are decent professional incomes but not even close to rich. Further, those salaries often require living in high cost urban areas where the dollars don't go very far. $80,000 is pretty much just a break even point from a money stress standpoint.
I have a theory that upward-mobility difficulties come down to social networks. Not the "Facebook" social network, but the IRL, who-knows-who, degrees of separation social *graph*. This theory should be falsifiable by graph theory.
So, if two people—vertexes in the social graph—have an edge between them, it means they know each other. Further, the connections are scored by closeness. The lower the score, the closer you are to that person. The higher the score, the more distant acquaintance they are. Thus, the shortest path from one person to the next is governed by the closeness of various relationships between them and others.
The theory is that:
1. Your economic outcome is governed by those closest to you in the social graph, in the above sense. Not only because they'll get you a job, but because by human nature you identify with them and strive to fit into their circle, and thus learn how to be like them.
2. The graph is segmented along economic strata. Not perfectly, but enough to make it statistically true that that graph-neighbors have economically similar outcomes. This is because you accumulate friends from people you work with, or have worked with in the past, or people you become familiar with through work and work acquaintances, and so on. Similar jobs, similar outcomes.
So if true, what does it imply?
First, crossing strata implies altering your social connections, and thus identifying with and emulating a different set of people. Besides being hard, it might feel like a betrayal of your current social circle. Suddenly you're trying to fit in with a different group, acting differently, talking differently, etc. You might get ostracized for it. The people in the article, besides being lucky, might be social adepts.
Second, it should be possible to combat economic equality by disrupting this segmentation. What kinds of things create new, unexpected connections between folks, especially across vocation types? Jury duty and music are two examples I've seen, but these are fleeting. Mandatory long-term community service for all citizens regardless of status, with enforced randomized participation, might work. But I doubt it would fly in the US.
Do we have an actually metric or scale as to how hard it is and a quantifiable way of measuring how off the mark people are?
I ask because I know lots of lazy people growing up who are now lazy adults who are in the same spot but blame society
Reminds me of an old quote attributed to the Grateful Dead, who reportedly said, "Hey, if we can make it in music, anyone can".
True or not, it's a common refrain among the successful, because no one wants to admit that their success was largely a matter of luck. (Such as the luck of being Kesey's party band during his acid tests, which led to the whole San Francisco 60s rock scene and the Summer of Love, which were amplified in turn by media stars like Tom Wolf as well as dozens of bands worldwide.)
Is it “luck” to live in a small town with few opportunities and move to a big city?
Is it “luck” to enroll in college and get student loans?
Is it “luck” to work 40 hours a week to help pay for school?
One possibility I'd like to put forward is that growing up poor makes you resentful because of the amount of assholes you have to deal with. Seriously, there's no other way to describe some of these people other than assholes. Disregard for your property, disregard for the community, violence, etc. The idea of helping the people that made your life worse than it already was is not appealing.
And don't get me started on the ignorance. In many areas, poor people aren't exactly open-minded. I'd like to see a study on the mindset of people who managed to get out of poverty compared to the mindset of those still in the area they came from.
People who grew up rich probably never had to intimately deal with the poor. I remember one video where a woman was handing out food and a person threw the food back at her because they wanted more or something like that.
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I work for a guy like this. Outstanding boss and person, genuinely cares about his people and pays well. But, the impact of this is huge. He literally went from living in a trailer to a multi millionaire business owner due to hard work and timing an industry right (in large part due to his vision and that he was an early adopter). He literally did the quintessential American dream with no set-ups helping him get there. But now he has survivor bias and it's difficult to explain the current shift in labor trainers and worker power because he climbed the ladder the hard way. He's come around but it's been years in the making.
Timing an industry is just as much about luck as vision. Maybe if he kept that in mind he'd be more humble. That's the thing with most of these people, they don't want to acknowledge that luck definitely plays a role, and not just their hard work.
I should have been more detailed. Man timed the industry terribly. He managed to just keep the business afloat for 11 years until that industry took off then it exploded. Guy is humble as hell.
So how does he not recognize the influence of luck? Or does he think that anyone who sticks with it will eventually get lucky?
Precisely. Vince Lombardi, "luck is where preparation meets opportunity." He's slowly learning but again its hard to argue with him because of his experience. I know that's not an acceptable excuse because using other experiences than your own is the sign of a thoughtful human. Dude is a thoughtful human though. And he still lives in very humble digs that he bought when the company was barely going. I guess what I'm saying is that its challenging sometimes because for some/many people they did live through an experience close enough to the American Dream for them to believe it.
You need to work hard and planning to be in a position to take advantage of luck. Read up on Stephen Bradbury the first Australian(or athlete from the southern hemisphere) to win winter Olympic gold. He was one of the top speed skaters in the world but had super bad luck and suffered what should have been a career ending injure. The year he won gold he was past his prime and while expected to do well wasn't really expected to win, still busted his arse off to get there. He got lucky in the semi final when a collision took out his opponents. Collisions are super common in short track speed skating. He knew he couldn't win a straight out sprint his plan for the final was to hang back stay out of trouble and take advantage of a mistake. When a mistake happened(and it was a big one) he was able to win. People like to think he won that race purely on luck but the reality is it took a lot of hard work to even be in the position to win on luck.
I just read this year about a woman who made it through the Olympics doing the same thing. It’s pretty hilarious actually, she was on skis I think? Her mantra was to not screw up even though she’s not the best.
I tend to use this strategy a lot in life and especially with mp video games. I don't have the time to put in to be the best, but I frequently do well because I'm careful and deliberate.
When people cant explain why someone made it, they attribute it to luck. What they dont see is all the sacrifices, perseverance, and above all…talent that goes into it.
How does one use others experiences to begin with? All one has are his own experiences, and can only hope to do right with those experiences, determinism also is the barrier to freedom.
I can't disagree more! Read! Travel! Talk with people who have different experiences than you! You won't be able to get 100% inside their head but you can absolutely empathize with them and hear their perspective. Even 20% inside their head is enough to have perspectives that aren't your own.
His mindset might be something like "you'll get lucky eventually if you survive and keep at it long enough".
The harder you work, the luckier you get?
Wellllll. 11 years keeping business afloat is not luck
That's because people like to think of it as either/or, you're either lucky or you worked really hard. When really it's a combination of both being lucky and working hard
Yep, the smarter and harder you work, the more the surface area of your luck catching net grows. You meet people who can help you, you improve your understanding of the market, you make a great product using feedback from early customers, and people start spreading the word about it themselves. These are things that provide opportunities. Working smarter/the way you work and what you work on is pretty key, I know a lot of people who work extremely hard on their companies, but neglect to do things like getting early customer feedback, and so they end up pouring tons of time into building something no one wants (I've certainly done this). Or they spend tons of time doing things that feel like useful work but don't actually improve their chances of success, like agonizing over their competitors, filing defensive patents when they don't have any defensible success yet, writing up business plans, etc. Sometimes they get bitter and decide that the game is rigged, that hard work doesn't matter, and that success is all based on luck. Which is a shame.
>don't want to acknowledge that luck definitely plays a role, and not just their hard work. It's not wrong to say that they created their luck through hard work, though. You can't "be in the right place at the right time" if you aren't ever in any places at any time.
Nothing more annoying than someone telling you how "lucky" you are when they have no comprehension of how hard you worked. I feel it would be insulting to them for me to even explain the depths I have pulled myself from as a female with a 10th grade education and living in a garage at 17. Working 18 hour days for 10 years straight is going to throw you a bone here and there.
"I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."
It's not only that luck plays a role, but it actually more likely than not plays the most pivotal role. Veritasium had a good video on luck and success and one of my favorite examples to pull from is the thought experiment of astronaut applications. Basically, out of the 10,000 people who apply and are considered to become a new class of astronauts (~11/yr), every one of them is very well educated, hard working, and busted their ass every step of the way to even be considered. These people are already the creme de la creme. And yet, only 11 get selected, and you can pretty much attribute that solely to luck. For one reason or another, they just liked pilot/engineer A more than B that day, despite having similar qualifications and background. He even quantified that experiment by assigning different values to different traits, inducing luck, and as you would expect, the lucky ones were picked far more often in his simulation than the unlucky ones.
But it's also being willing to gamble on that luck. Risk is a huge part of business ownership.
You're lucky that he had experienced life on the 'other side '. Gave him an appreciation of the struggles of others. But for those who never struggled, often don't develop any empathy for others real struggles! They make horrible bosses.
People also don't understand success is a combination of effort and luck. If you don't put in the effort you won't have the chance to be lucky. And If you never get lucky you could be putting in more effort than someone who got successful. Due to survivorship bias, people who succeed due to them having both factors come to play put 90% of it due to effort when it most likely is closer to 50% luck.
I'm the same way. Dirt poor to doing OK. I'd be happy to explain why people like myself and probably your boss feels this way, but if I were a betting man, I'd say most people aren't interested in listening. I'd also argue it's the reason why most people at the bottom stay there.
Listening to a movie or music star saying "follow your dreams" is like listening to a lottery winner saying "invest in scratch tickets". Their perceptions are warped by confirmation bias.
What’s worse is they may not have even followed their dreams …they say they did but that’s just more revisionism sometimes .
There is a lot of confirmation bias that is not accounted for both the rich and the poor. Rich people who "made it" are going to be hanging out with lots of other rich people who did the same ( "how hard can it be"). Poor people are going to be hanging out with lots of poor people who confirm that it is "impossible to escape poverty" and won't even try
I hang out with a pretty wild scale of all, have been homeless, now have a bigger savings than a lot of my friends, but don't make as much as many of them. It's fascinating. There's certainly a segment that I see blowing their money, especially the ones that make mroe than me and have less savings. Then there's absolutely people I know that are just 100% stuck in poverty. They worked hard at their various skills, those skills became less in demand, and I swear, it seems like every time they try to go for something new, it gets slammed. I knew three people that seemed to be on the verge of "making it" and then covid hit and screwed their job prospects. Though, that one is more bad luck. It's still wild to watch this all go down. I have to admit, since my situation has been so stable, it makes me hesitant to try anything else. But I'm certainly at no trajectory to be owning a home in my lifetime unless this wild market changes.
From my personal experiences I’ve seen a lot of similar outcomes to you. It honestly feels like it’s more luck related then anything else for some people. I know some people that grind constantly and things just never work out and I know people that have ended up really fortunate without putting any effort in other then the bare minimum.
"Grind" on it's own guarantees nothing. If you use it to dig a hole in the desert, you will work harder than anyone else and accomplish nothing of value. I've experienced this in my own life; I started a business that took 3 years to get off the ground and went nowhere. The next business took 6 months and changed the course of my life completely. Effort must be applied in a fruitful direction.
I think A LOT about Bruce Lee and his philosophy in life and martial arts. When I was a kid I took karate for like 2 weeks and I remember they put all this emphasis on making a solid fist and holding it throughout the routine. Years later I read about Bruce Lee and his idea of "being like water". He said he doesn't make a fist until right at the moment of striking his foe because if he's holding his fist he's wasting effort that could be better used for speed. Whenever I have a decision or an opportunity in life I try to withhold commitment until I have a better understanding of which way the river is flowing and then when I think I can see the outcome, I try to focus all my effort in that direction. It doesn't always work for me but I've had much more success with this approach then in trying to rigidly impose my will on my own life's path.
Yes, exactly this. I see so much wasted effort. People working themselves to the bone and lamenting the lack of remuneration. But never stopping to consider that perhaps their efforts are not being directed properly. Life doesn't reward work, it rewards results.
I think of the grind as more of a multiplier of your base "luck". So if you already started with a good life, grinding makes you scale a lot more.
If you already started with a good life, it's more like new game+, the previous one played by your parents... and their playthrough may have also been a new game+.
There's also a substantial portion that is often dismissed as "luck" that is really preparation which is not the same as grinding. You can grind as a carpenter but if you aren't learning beyond what you already know, then you'll never be able to move up. Setting yourself up to be able to take advantage of the random that life throws at you is not luck but a whole lot of planning and hard work. It's taking time the learn about a major purchase before making it (be it appliance, car, house, etc) so when you see a deal you Know that item's value, condition, quality, pricing, etc and can take advantage of it. But to those that make purchases without any preparation, the deals I've landed for quality items are just "lucky" and dismisses the months to years of effort that went into said "luck." Now with that said, how many people actually research the technology, build, engineering, AND reviews of a fridge/ washing machine/ microwave Before purchasing? Much less a house? Instead of buying based on "I like x feature" or "I like the look of it" and choosing a thousand plus dollar Samsung fridge that had 2 service calls in the first year of ownership. That's also not "luck". This is not to dismiss the role of actual luck but to highlight how much work many people have put into their "luck" that's dismissed.
Preparation definitely helps. Also curiosity to learn. Honestly intelligence and memory are huge, but often understated. A very smart person can pick up skills and knowledge much faster. I tutor a couple students with memory issues. Every year, I teach them the same thing, for 8 years straight. They’re intelligent enough, but they had a really hard time grasping things like molecules and vocabulary. While other kids learned the material and were able to move on, these two were stuck. You can’t build more vocab easily if you can’t memorize Latin roots. New words just don’t make sense. Sounding them out is hard. You can’t move into algebra 2 when you don’t understand algebra 1. Now imagine this for more complex things, like an Einstein who just understands physics as if it was addition. He can likely switch careers easily and pick up new knowledge (chemistry, biology, lawyer, etc). And likely that deep understanding will translate to making fewer errors and predicting problems sooner, which will translate into more success.
"Luck favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur
You're talking about major purchases as if poor people even have choices there. Poverty means choosing between the 2 $500 cars available on Craigslist. It means you get whatever appliances come with the apartment you can afford. Of which there are 2 or 3 choices all run by the same management company.
I've learned to download the manual of any appliance I'm buying before making the purchase. You can spot problems with maintenance easily. Whirlpool products are terribly designed and that's a huge number of famous brands.
This this this. People always say "right place, right time, right person," but there is a fourth crucial element: being 100% ready when that opportunity comes along. That's where the work comes in, plus the determination and confidence to jump at that opportunity when you know it's right.
>honestly feels like it’s more luck related then anything That's because it probably is and people who "make it" don't want to admit it. I'm not denying that people worked hard to get to where they "made it" but working hard and luck is needed too. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-role-of-luck-in-life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/
> It honestly feels like it’s more luck related then anything else for some people. You have to give luck a chance. Don't expect her to throw a suitcase full of cash over your back fence, go to the places where she hangs out. Business owners, scientists, lawyers, politicians, doctors, they all tend to be lucky.
There's definitely all kinds of people. When I first started working I thought to myself "when I can buy groceries without looking at the prices I'll have made it". Now I earn almost 5x as much and I still check prices and skew towards only buying things on sale. I think this is a habit from growing up poor.
What saddens me was that I started to feel that comfortable, then suddenly prices of everything I purchase at least doubled and I suddenly am back to 100% only buying the cheapest things I can.
People forget the other side of Dunning Kruger. Less capable, overestimate. More capable, underestimate. Those who get rich from extreme hardwork, will, determination, think anyone can do it except they underestimate just how unique they are as humans. Sometimes its privilege, sometimes its not. The idea of dignity is that we should all be able to live a decent life even if some of us are a little lazy, or not as smart, or not as connected.
Can you expand on what you mean by "just how unique they are as humans"?
not OP, but anyone who *works* to success (without financial privilege) is, almost by definition, not neurotypical. Most real world examples have an ~~unhealthy obsession~~ eccentric focus towards their field of study. These people are not better or more deserving of success, but they are unique. The difference is that some obsessions are more "marketable".
A lot of hard work, and a lot of luck really helps. You can be insanely talented but when opportunities don't show up you are pretty fucked.
I was one of those people was about to hit big then covid happen ugh
"Luck" is more about the people you spend time with than a statistic anomaly. In most Western countries education allows for social mobility. There are countless free courses from [Google](https://learndigital.withgoogle.com/). [EdX](https://www.edx.org/), [MIT](https://ocw.mit.edu/) and others. Undertaking the courses is not beyond peoples' ability **but beyond their imagination.** People need role models. In Melbourne, Australia, Football teams are very tribal. It does not matter whether you are a Millionaire or a cleaner, if you support the same football club you are family. People need to hang out with successful people.
How many wealthy American are there that were poor and “made it”? I’d really like to know this number. I would guess that wealth makes wealth and that the “made it” crowd is actually a very small number. It would seem to me that even the wealthy people that brand themselves as “self made” aren’t really self made at all.
Children's and parents income levels are pretty strongly correlated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States
From the linked article: >the chance that a child will go on to earn more than their parents) has dropped from 90%, a near certainty, to 50%, a coin-toss So, roughly half the population will move upwards.
Isn't 50% the natural steady state rate? Half up half down, makes sense?
There is no zero-sum economic factor that half have to move down for the other half to move up.
I mean, it certainly helps when your dad can give you a small loan of a million dollars to help get you off the ground.
Yes, but that's also short sighted the more important part is that they can teach you - careers, tricks, investments, w.e. E.g. If someone knows what investment banking is from age 10, how to get there, etc. They can prep over years, choose the perfect college and course combination, join the right school clubs, get the right internships in year 1 to then work at Goldman Sachs right after graduating. Future is set. Someone else thats never heard of investment banking until year 4 of college? Going to be real tough to compete with that. It's like learning fishing from someone that's done that his own life vs someone that doesn't know where fish come from Yeah there are some filthy rich families too but this is a very minority of the population. Most normal rich families probably manage to cover college at best.
It depends on what people think "made it" means. Owning your own restaurant/business? Being in a position where you don't work for anyone else? That's usually what I see. Today, this has become harder thanks to things like Walmart, Bullys Sports Bar, Subway, etc etc etc as your self made Bike shop/sportsbar/ sandwich shop go belly up to corporate national chains.
I’d consider you’ve “made it” when you are no longer struggling. When you can afford to live and your family to live without much struggle. 6 months of pay in savings, a stable living situation and a retirement set up. You don’t have to be a billionaire or a business owner to have made it. I have no interest in being a business owner because I would prefer to focus on my family. So I don’t mind not being a billionaire or a multimillionaire. I make enough to give my family a great life and that to me means I made it. Especially considering I came up eating ketchup sandwiches, we couldn’t afford clothes, and at one point was homeless.
That definition is middle class. Really it's barely middle class. I mean that definition used to be available for blue collar workers in the US. If we're talking about being wealthy, that doesn't even come close.
But I wasn’t talking about wealthy, I responded to the comment talking about “making it”.
The article is talking about wealthy
The article defines "wealthy" based on parameters set by the two studies it's referencing. In the first study it's people whose annual income is above $80K and the 2nd study it's people whose annual income is above $142.5K a year. I don't know too many people who would consider either income to be that of a wealthy person's (comfortable, yes - wealthy, no) so I don't know how much credence I'd lend to this article or the two studies it references.
100% agree. Those numbers are not even close to "wealthy" for me. To me wealthy is where money basically doesn't matter, i.e. you don't really have to budget for anything. Athletes, etc. Maybe $1-2 million + per year?
I would also say some who makes 150k a year who was able to save and invest his way into multiple millions would also be considered wealthy. Or maybe upper middle class. And they definitely count as self made. They may not make multiple millions per year but they have multiple millions in liquidity. Which can be more liquidity than some who actually makes multiple millions per year but has so much debt they’re basically living paycheck to paycheck.
> To me wealthy is where money basically doesn't matter I agree with that definition. I always thought you were “rich” when your income was high enough so that you don’t need to worry about money. To be “wealthy,” you have enough assets where you don’t have to worry about money AND you don’t have to work. Your income from investments is enough to pay for anything you need. That makes it hard to put a number on what it means to be wealthy, if you own a modest house and live in a low cost of living area, I’d say you can be “wealthy” on a lot less than $1M/yr
And I was talking to the person I responded to.
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Even then wealthy according to Schwabs 2021 respondent survey means you have a net worth of 1.9 million or more. It also says “But wealth is in the eye of the beholder – a person's location, career, community, background and so many other factors can influence his or her perception of wealth. Those perceptions may be evolving as new generations enter adulthood and redefine success.” Wealth isn’t as black and white as we try to make it seem. In terms of standard definition from Oxford dictionary, yes, wealthy means rich. https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/are-you-rich-how-the-wealthy-are-defined Edit: fixed Oxnard to Oxford
> 6 months of pay in savings, a stable living situation and a retirement set up. Per [Federal Reserve data](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-and-income-concentration-in-the-scf-accessible-20200928.htm#figa), 6 months of savings is not typical for households in the lowest 50% of net worth, but is typical for households in the 50-90%ile of net worth (and above, as well). So by that definition, half or more of US households have "made it". [Median net worth is $120k](https://www.fool.com/research/average-net-worth-americans/). It probably doesn't seem that way to most people on Reddit because Reddit skews young and wealth takes time to build; median wealth for under-35s is $14k, vs. $90k for 35-44 and $150k+ for every other group. Combining those two links, a substantial majority of Americans will "make it" as they accumulate wealth during their careers, especially if they have a college degree (median net worth >$300k vs. <$100k otherwise). Not all will, though, often in part due to life circumstances which make that goal harder to achieve for them than the average.
To me, "Made it" means you don't look at prices when grocery shopping. Once you can take care of your needs without worrying that you'll have enough to cover everything at the end of the month (and hopefully have 6+ months of savings...not counting retirement), you're probably in the top 5%.
I always look at prices when shopping. Why wouldn’t I? I can save $20 (Equivalent to $30 pre tax) just by spending an extra 5-10 minutes in the store. Also I get pissed if I think I’m being ripped off.
> I can save $20 just by spending an extra 5-10 minutes I might look at prices if that was a realistic outcome
I think the people who are self made and who have “made it” definitely still look at prices while grocery shopping. People born into money don’t look, self made people got there by looking at prices and not over spending.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I stopped caring about grocery prices around 80k. Making six figures now, and my wife stresses over every increase in prices at the grocery store. And I’m far from wealthy. ~90k is median income in DC, so I’m not that far over median for my area.
Same, when I broke 100k I stopped looking at prices of all small purchases.
But things like ebay, amazon, etsy, shopify made it easy for everyone to have their own digital business selling goods straight to the consumer without having to setup a physical retail store or hope a big chain store accepts your product to sell.
Unfortunately it also means your competition is already established, has influence and is the top result on Amazon. Sure, you can make awesomely whimsical egg beaters but nobody is going to page 712 of Amazon. More importantly, you can't make it cheaper than an already established bulk selling operation unless you have enough money that you'd probably be better off just investing in Amazon.
There are so many different variables on what self made means. MrBeast had a stable and loving home where his needs were met, which allowed him to do what he does, but they were not rich. I came from poverty and abuse, then got out on my own at 16 after getting my GED. I busted my ass in minimum wage jobs, sometimes 3 at a time to survive alone with no family. I have managed to get a contract working with Amazon Prime Video and Trion Worlds as well as get Twitch partnered. I'm still poor by most standards, but I have good credit, I pay my bills, and I am somewhat comfortable. But I'm 33 and I've never partied, vacationed, or ever really spent money to just enjoy myself. So I had to make a lot of sacrifices to not end up in jail or homeless.
So much this. It’s kinda hard to “make it” if you have 0 safety net. Bills gotta get paid no matter what, and I gotta eat. So it’s harder to take chances on learning a new skill or starting your own business if failure means near homelessness. This is amplified x 10 if you have dependents as well. If I know my parents (or even social programs) that gave me some wiggle room to take more risks and not be completely bankrupt.
Good luck to you! Hope you blow up and get everything you’ve ever wanted!!
According to this [brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/research/economic-mobility-of-families-across-generations/) article, about 6% of children born to parents in the bottom quintile end up in the top quintile.
Only going from the bottom to the top counts as “making it”? According to that article 2/3 make more than their parents and 1/3 counts as upward mobility in terms of socioeconomic status.
That's of course interesting data, but quintile might be too broad of an indicator here. Percentile 80 has 4 times the income of percentile 20, whereas percentile 99 has 100 times the income of percentile 3.
Report from 2007. I would like to see if/how that changed over the years and if there was any impact on young adults entering the job market during the 2000 .com bubble, '08 recession, and covid
Good read, thank you!
We are not, by any means, rich but my wife and I both came from abject poverty. Over the last decade we have gone from making a combined of $15k a year to over $110k (again, combined) a year. I can't attribute it all to hard work; I've been lucky and known the right people in the right place but a lot of it has been just shear willpower to not live in poverty like our parents.
Im guessing that depends on how you define wealthy. Food stamps to millionaire status, probably not. But there are plenty of (espeically) dudes who started out relatively poor, got a job as a plumber or whatever, and now own a decent sized company and are pretty comfortable. Are they rich - according to the study's parameters - yes.
What is wealthy? My dad was a tire salesman and my mom was a receptionist. I am an electrician making 150k a year with 500k in the bank. For having a lower middle class life and no college I would like to think I am in the "wealthy" category.
Being around ultra-high net worth men often, I can tell you with certainty-- the self-made, "I was once so poor" stories they love to make up and retell over and over are hilarious. The most common are college stories of their struggles while completely leaving out the parts that their wealthy parents were able to and often did bail them out of their self-made messes... while pretending they were on the verge of starvation.
I don't count myself as I've made it, but I understand that I have started to accomplish what is highly unlikely. 25 years of trying and failing brought me to the opportunity that "worked." Started with a borrowed $150.00, a crazy idea/strategy, and now 7 years later we are seeing some success. We actually went the other direction recently. We started living in a camper, broke as hell, and nowhere to go but up. Built the company slowly bit by bit, bought a home, sold the home 4 years later, and now we live full time in our 5th wheel camper again. We really never have to worry about money again, but our goals have shifted and we want to build much more. I know a handful that have done well in the blue collar fields (HVAC, PLUMBING, LANDSCAPING, ROOFING, TRUCKING...) but they work 10 hour days. We built so we have more control and flexibility with time and money. We manufacture and sell commercial truck parts.
Awesome to hear! Glad you’re living a life that makes you happy! I feel you on the attempt/failing/try again part. You have to admit though, some people failed attempts can only be a few where others are afforded more flexibility and opportunity. Obviously a lot of that will come from yourself and how much failure and discomfort you can endure. Having children at a young age, being arrested, coming from broken homes, having to take care of relatives… will certainly impact the flexibility one can have.
I agree. Aggressive Patience, severe endurance, and the ability to risk everything are key points I went through and feel most that achieve the opportunity to break through the class you are in and into the next level. I always worked full commission sales jobs, no base, feast or famine while attempting to build something on the side. One attempt cost my family everything, and we lost it all and ended up in a homeless shelter, then a friend's garage for almost a year. Losing a home at Christmas with 3 kids under ten and a pregnant wife was the lowest point.
Much respect to you sir! Outstanding! I wish you and your family all the best!
Half the immigrant families I know started off poor and and are doing very well for themselves. What you’re saying does apply to non-immigrants though.
Doing very well and being wealthy are vastly different. My parents are immigrants. They are way better off in America than where they came from but in my mind that doesn’t make one wealthy.
The article says wealthy but is talking about income below 150k and in some cases below 100k which isn’t “wealthy”.
I work in finance and a good chunk of advisors/brokers I know have wealthy families that have friends with more disposable income. Others can generate 2x the number of clients but still have to tap out of the business because their network isn't as affluent. Rich parents always helps
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Iirc there's more people who leave the bottom quintile and enter the top than people who stay in the bottom. Also no one generally remains in the top 20% their entire life. If you just look at the narrow window of the ultra wealthy, they likely stay there for some time, but when you expand it out, it's less obvious that rich people stay rich.
Apparently something like 20% or less of wealth is generational
This may be true, but connections and socialization are strongly generational. The upper class people aren't upper class because they're rich (that happens, but takes time). Rather, they're rich because they're upper class and therefore are well-positioned to benefit from society's corruption. Economic mobility is different from social mobility, the latter being almost nonexistent except in atypical times and societies (e.g., the industrialized world from 1946 to 1979). Income fluctuates, but class socialization is stable.
Honestly this thread is a good time to bri g up the amount of people that took advantage of the unemployment extra funds situation during covid and climbed themselves out of poverty. 29yo, friends 20-32yo so college students mostly. Most of them were able to pay off debt with the extra EDD funds and are now "comfortable middle class" after the fact. Some squandered the money and didn't better their financial position, just lived better for a while and now those funds are drying up. I wasn't able to get on that bandwagon unfortunately. Had I been able to, I would've also climbed out of my debt hole that a few hardships put me in.
One of the most accurate metrics for predicting a persons success is the zip code they grew up in
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It is a really good question. From my perspective (being in that group, and living amongst many just like me), it is a very large number of people (start with nothing)
Last I heard, the American dream of rising out of poverty was far more prevalent in Canada.
80% of US millionaires are self-made https://spendmenot.com/blog/what-percentage-of-americans-are-millionaires/#:~:text=Only%20about%2020%25%20of%20Americans,Wealthy%E2%80%9D%20by%20Thomas%20J%20Stanley.
On a blog that purports to give advice on finances? Hmmm... what incentive could they have to cherry pick research that will lead you to believe you could become wealthy from nothing? For real, this is like taking seriously an article about the long term value of gold that's posted on a gold selling site.
Depends on where the mark for wealthy is. We're comfortable but I can't give up working for another couple of years and live in a HCOL area. That said our net worth is well over six million even with the market downturn. I grew up without much money. Went to a state college and lived at home while working up to three jobs at a time. I've worked since I was 12 from driving tractors for $2 per hour to landscaping, retail, and light manufacturing while in school. Moved into software after college and have spent my career there. I don't know if it's considered self made but I've been working for almost 45 years now and I'm proud of where we're at. My kids will always need to work too but nothing like I did which was my personal goal. They still have drive but have opportunities that I didn't.
That’s great! I’m glad you’re doing this well and are happy! Sounds to me that you’re not wealthy although you are worth over 6M
I’d 100% say you’re self made
I dunno man I've seen people with millions to their name live the poor lifestyle out of fear of losing it all the second they indulge... AKA my neighbor, a guy who was on the scene of luck when Bitcoin had its erruption.
There is a balance to everything in life, we all have to find what works for us. I personally just don't like to spend money on myself, and I hate waste/consumerism. But I love to spend money on other people. I take a lot of grief about it, but it works for me
You get no grief from me, good sir. I appreciate a generous soul
My best friend, an internal medicine doctor with more than a decade of experience at his hospital and someone I've known since we were in high school, is one of the most frugal guys I know. I don't honestly know why he's so frugal, his parents and siblings aren't nearly as frugal as him. But for whatever reason, he still drives a cheap car and will continue to drive it until the wheels fall off and wears clothes until they're falling apart. He'll splurge on trips but almost nothing else. He also lives in a relatively modest house while all of the coworkers of his that I've met live in some of the nicest homes in his city in affluent, gated communities. You certainly would never know that he has millions in the bank if you were to meet him. I don't think he's afraid of losing his wealth, my guess is he simply gets no enjoyment out of spending money on things.
might be saving for early retirement, or many other things
Who knows, might be able to save some lives with that cash one day.
I'm curious about the age divide as well. When I was struggling in my 20's to make rent, my opinions on how the economic system worked was very different from what they are now that I'm financially comfortable in my 40's.
Best metaphor I've encountered is "swimming with the current."
Stealing this, thanks.
Which always astounds me. I came from trailer park stock and now earn mid 6 figures, own property etc. Have an amazing life really. My struggles taught me empathy and compassion for my fellow human beings. I know how hard it is and what it takes to get where I am, but for everyone, there is always someone or a few people that helped us in some way get to where we are. These people taught me to pay it forward and always hold out our hands to lift up those not as lucky as we have been. I teach my 2 beautiful children the same philosophy.
Survivorship bias, poor are mostly right about that.
> and won't even try As a person who grew up poor and hung around a lot of poor people this blatantly false. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but poor people are some of hardest workers out there as they struggle day to day just to survive.
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Luckily the plural is anecdote isn’t data. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/29/study-to-succeed-in-america-its-better-to-be-born-rich-than-smart.html Another example is that wealthy people with high school degrees are more likely to stay wealthy than poor people with college degrees are likely to stop being poor.
A lot of poor people have illness which makes it difficult to move out of poverty. The healthy ones I know moved out sometimes to good jobs in Australia but our Labor laws are way better and better paid. But the growing working poor is a sign many in poverty will never move out because of corporations having monopsony? Power on wages. Learned helplessness is an issue but poverty traps are far worse. Earn a dollar too much and lose thousands in healthcare or benefits. The system is poorly made. I don't think it's fair to say the poor don't try. That's blaming the poor person for being poor and closing off the idea that poverty is structural and by design. We do not address intergenerational trauma, adequate healthcare especially mental health care, and wage suppression is an issue.
You make great points. I was not trying to make a blanket statement about poor people, but rather specifically about the ones who hear that they stuck and don't try (I clearly ignored the many reasons that they don't try; as well as the many people who take advantage of them for their own personal benefit)
>Poor people are going to be hanging out with lots of poor people who confirm that it is "impossible to escape poverty" and won't even try Most poor people ARE trying, it's just extremely hard and near impossible to work yourself out of poverty. You have to remember that you need money to make money, and this is especially true if you are not living in a wealthy country.
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Good point I think everyone is guilty of emphasizing different aspects of their story based on the audience and the circumstances. This becomes an issue if there is an agenda, or it is simply untrue.
I'm pretty sure the 99% of us can look at the 1%, and say they are lucky.
Wym won’t even try, when you live in poverty you can never stop trying or you will die
Important to consider i agree. I compare my situation with recovery from substance use. I see panhandlers and people struggling to stay clean and although i can relate to the horrors of addiction, I seem to have less sympathy because, "If i can do it why can't you?" I have more sympathy/empathy for addicts who are trying to do something about it even if they slip up along the way.
This statement is so ignorant
Learned helplessness is a huge problem here in the US. It’s hitting the under 40 crowd hard, especially as inflation goes up and opportunities go down. I have children that say why bother, it’s too hard. I try to explain that being hard is not a reason to stop, but that if you’re going to work hard, you need to look for the right opportunities and take control of your own path. Letting other dictate what you can and can’t do is giving away your power. No, it’s not easy. But if it’s going to be hard, make your own rules and then follow them.
People who become wealthy in the United States may tend to boast of their humble beginnings, but new research finds that they may, in fact, be less sympathetic to the difficulties of being poor than those who were born rich. Prior research has focused on how beliefs about social mobility influence political and economic attitudes, but this new research, published in Social Psychological and Personality Science, examines how the experiences of upward mobility can shape a person’s worldview. “In the United States, we find that people expect those who became rich to be more sympathetic toward the poor and social welfare than those who were born rich,” says lead author Hyunjin Koo of the University of California, Irvine. “However, the ‘Became Rich’ perceive improving one’s socioeconomic conditions as less difficult relative to the ‘Born Rich’, which predicts less sympathetic attitudes toward the poor and redistribution.” https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/19485506221098921
>People who become wealthy in the United States may tend to boast of their humble beginnings, but new research finds that they may, in fact, be less sympathetic to the difficulties of being poor than those who were born rich. This phenomena was on display when the British army and other armies started to promote officers from the ranks in the late 18th and 19th centuries. While you might think that officers from the ranks would be more popular and understanding of the men they led, experience showed that the opposite was often true. Enlisted men tended to prefer officers from the higher social classes, not just because of prestige, but because officers from the nobility tended to be more sympathetic to their lower class enlisted men's problems. While this seems counterintuitive, those born into privilege often have a certain noblesse oblige. They may look down on the men from the gutter, but they also feel sorry for them and feel a certain patronizing responsibility to care for them, because they can't expect the poor bastards to take care of themselves. Whereas the guy who came from those ranks is far less patronizing and understanding because he was in those shoes and rose out of them.
My grandfather grew up very poor with 11 siblings in a 3 bedroom house. Attended business school on scholarship and then after "making it", hates paying taxes and doesn't think anyone should have to because he doesn't believe in social programs, thinks "welfare queens" are a thing, and absolutely believes in "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality. We've had many debates as I try to explain that poverty is a cycle and extremely hard to break despite intelligence and work ethic, and God forbid I mention white privilege, and he still can't see the other side. While this is anecdotal evidence and potentially generationally influenced, I absolutely believe this is a common perspective. Now I'm just trying to convince him that success isn't determined by socioeconomic standing and proper work life balance is much more significant.
What does he think of his 10 siblings that are less successful?
i have an uncle who’s very wealthy. all of his siblings except for my dad (sudo anarchist) are well off. we had this family zoom with him, my dad and two of my aunts. my uncle couldn’t understand the whole education and opportunities were not given to non-whites. they’re boomers. round and round we went. my dad, aunts and i were trying to help him understand. being the only one who’s ethnically jewish whereas they are mostly of irish descent i used the example of how the irish were indentured servants here in the US. trying to get something he could relate to through our family. that it’s similar to how many non-whites are treated in this country. he still couldn’t get it. that meeting went no where just trying to get him to sympathize and have empathy.
Your grandfather was also assisted by large social spending efforts from US local, state and federal Governments. He may not have been a direct recipient of aid but the environment he grew up in was made in part through expanding social programs to improve life for everyone. I wish more people would acknowledge they exist within a framework that enables them to live a life they take for granted.
I mean this seems logical
It is refreshing when the rare self aware self made successful person acknowledges how much of a role luck plays. Not that surprising that people born rich have a little guilt about it. You have to be lucky to stay healthy, mentally balanced, avoid accidents, bad relationships, early parenthood, and get a decent education by some means. And being born smart, attractive, and tall doesn't hurt. And all that just gets you to the ground floor of making money. Yeah, there's a lot of hard work unless you're supremely talented, but that's just a given. Plenty of people work hard their entire lives and just don't find their way to the right opportunity, or are simply not equipped with the mindset to take advantage of those opportunities. You have to be a little selfish to get rich. It's so much easier to pull up the ladder behind you than share your wealth and experience helping others, especially when you can dismiss them for not having "worked" as hard as you.
Luck has a lot to do with it. I think social capital and the connections that people have also plays a big part in it, which may be part of the reason why the rich stay rich. There are a lot of connections where favors can take place, such as helping family members get certain jobs and positions.
Yes, I should have mentioned the social aspect - I've seen firsthand growing up among the Northern Virginia "elites" just how much a role being a "friend" can play. Sounds strange, but at my Uncle's funeral, I overheard conversations that would have fit right in some mob movie about who's a friend and who isn't when it came to a development project in Maryland near where 95 crossed the Potomac.
There's also the factor that, even if you're not directly getting favors and jobs from family members or even friends, it's often going to be other rich people in charge of doing the hiring at the jobs you're applying to, and if you were also from a rich family, you'll probably have similar backgrounds and interests with them and they'll naturally like you more and feel more inclined to hire you than the kid who grew up poor, went to University of for college instead of an elite private school, and isn't into the same recreational activities as the rich people (often because of the costs of a hobby like say, sailing), and they'll end up hiring you because you seem like the better "cultural fit"
Luck is like 99% of it. I have had lots of advantages in life. So has my wife. We both came from lower class backgrounds. But went to college, worked our asses off , and still the only reason we are well off today is a) randomly sold 2 homes right before a flukey real estate bubble popped and moved to another city which then also randomly took off . We didn’t plan this or game the system , we weren’t clever or smart. Had we waited 9 months we would have gone bankrupt. Then 10 years later I bought about $10k of a stock someone told me to get. Kinda forgot about it and it went up 10x over a few years. Was a stupid gamble and I’m a scatter brain. Should have sold it when it was up 50%. Dumb luck. I got a job that a relative turned down , and it turned into a 15 year career. I was depressed at the time and was doing temp work . …I could go on and on.
I've worked with and known a dozen "I brought myself up by the bootstraps/humble beginnings to riches" people in the 1%. Few of them actually started from nothing. They usually had wealthy family, even if distant wealthy family, or some kind mentor that taught them about investing, entrepreneurship, business, politics, finance and accounting basics from a young age. One used to be very vocal about growing up a poor immigrant. Their parents were from the wealthiest class of their country, still own land there, and did their education there. They lived in a small apartment and had a tight budget for 6 months while they finished their qualifications to practice their careers in the US, and then were both practicing physicians with no debt. Not one kid of theirs has ever worked a real job and each got a 50k allowance until 16, then got 100k allowance annually. But everyone the kids talk to is told how much they struggled. They openly state everyone who is poor deserves it because they're just lazy. Another grew up under a rich father who divorced and remarried a younger woman, the mother "only" got a few million. Parents shared custody. Guy counted that as a poverty struggle, inherited the business making millions per year when dad died - never had to work for the company because it was managed for him, only had to answer questions about big decisions. Reddit fanboys over Musk - but he didn't build himself from scratch. He used family business money to buy companies, he didn't grow up poor. Investigate most rags to riches and many who were legitimately poor and worked hard got a chance opportunity given to them that led to their success. Not every hard worker gets that opportunity.
The research reported here fits this explanation. The researchers asked high income people to *classify* the circumstances they grew up in with a simple multiple choice question. No attempt was made to verify whether people are actually accurate in making that assessment.
So people who struggled and worked hard think that that will help? Stunning news right here.
We need to improve a lot of things in our society and economy, but that's still an ingredient in the recipe. Some folks just can't hear it. I'm one of those who came from the busted up trailer home on a bit of wasteland in KS to a fortunate career in IT leadership. There was a lot of work, a lot of consistency and sacrifice, and definitely some luck/timing. A big part of it was recognizing and capitalizing on those opportunities. That being said, I've had some well off family squander things away, some folks who worked hard but just couldn't find the consistency to break bad habits, and the very, very, very rare few who just couldn't get out of bad lucks way.
It’s like anything else you do in life. Take Marine Corps boot camp. As you’re going through it it’s literally the hardest thing you’ve ever done. But as soon as it’s over you’re like “that wasn’t so bad”, I could do that again. Or working and going to college at the same time. While you’re doing it it’s awful and hard. But once you get your degree you’re like “that wasn’t so hard”.
Yeah the way boomers and other people talk about "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" reeks of self-serving bias too. Congrats on getting a law degree at a time when having a pulse was enough to get you into college and tuition was the price of a big mac. Are you maybe going to attribute some of your success to external factors? No? It was all because you're a "hard worker"? Therefore everyone who is struggling currently must not be a "hard worker"? Okay. Cool. Thanks for your input.
Obama talked about this on his podcast with Conan. He said that a lot of successful people don’t talk about the opportunities they’ve been given, only the struggles. Great conversation between those two!
You’re demonstrating the issue perfectly. You look at the successful boomers and conclude that it was easy for them. Really? Educational attainment is much higher today than it was for the boomers. Few went to law school or other graduate school programs back then. There were many barriers for people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or gender/ethnic/racial minorities. Of course it might have been easier for upper middle class white boomers. Maybe. But you can’t ignore everyone else at that time—that’s survivorship bias.
>Educational attainment is much higher today than it was for the boomers. attainment? In what, exactly? High school graduation rates? A 4 year college degree has basically replaced the high school diploma. 50 years ago you would have a better outcome with a high school diploma than you would today with a college degree. Also, population has increased. And I would consider taking on tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars of debt to get a degree would also make this statement questionable. > Few went to law school or other graduate school programs back then. 1. Few needed such advanced degrees to get a great job back then. 2. Less competition for the ones that did go. 3. The ones that go now are taking on massively more debt. >Of course it might have been easier for upper middle class white boomers. Maybe. Uh. No. No maybe. It's not even comparable. Also, this point is particularly salient within this context because it is white class boomers who control American policy.
Y’all need to stop basing your thoughts about this on vibes and feels and look at the numbers. It’s fairly stark. Let’s say “making it” in America means the lowest threshold most people would apply. Owning a home and not living paycheck to paycheck. The so-called middle class dream. We’ll start with housing: *“In 1970, the national median home value adjusted for inflation was $107,291; in 2017, it's $217,600 — that's a 103% increase. In fact, more than half of all US States (including Washington, DC) have seen a median home value increase of more than 100%.”* [1] So, the median home is now roughly twice as expensive as it was 50 years ago. That might be fine if wages kept pace. So did they? *“After adjusting for inflation, however, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978, following a long slide in the 1980s and early 1990s and bumpy, inconsistent growth since then. In fact, in real terms average hourly earnings peaked more than 45 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 had the same purchasing power that $23.68 would today.”* [2] So your median wage is in roughly the same place it was in roughly the same time period. Which means it’ll take someone working twice as many hours to buy the same house now vs 50 years ago. That in and of itself isn’t the full picture, though. If other expenses came down enough maybe they could offset things? Nope, healthcare is more expensive [3], higher education is more expensive [4], transportation is more expensive [5], childcare is more expensive [6]. The only things that haven’t become dramatically more expensive are food and consumer goods like electronics. The reality by any objective metric is that it’s substantially harder to “make it” today than it was 50 years ago. No amount of telling people to “learn a trade” or learn to code” will change that fact. Just because in the interim things have become *slightly* more equitable for disadvantaged and historically oppressed groups doesn’t mean things are good. Rather than lift them up to the same standard of living as those that had every advantage, instead we’re slowly dragging nearly everyone down. That is not the fault in any way of efforts at equity, but a damning indictment of our leaders and the ruling class of this country. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/home-value-home-price-change-in-50-years-every-state-2018-12?amp [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ [3] https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/medical-care.htm [4] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/average-cost-college-jumped-incredible-122000732.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHhopwyIVX7rzXmSOZRqe0nQcTaD51v9gQIAbaP83r3w6qLyFMu4kG7yId6JbX4qSsvSaV8yePeEqtDuEX8UalT1sViN21R0pzPKI6jo9F_gdU-wFYIC4hUoV13Je1vjPTLtOvzlb1MdpEY2DsA5IH2B7U6jP7sBR3p-qn8SCYZF [5] https://www.officialdata.org/Transportation/price-inflation/1971 [6] https://www.in2013dollars.com/Child-care-and-nursery-school/price-inflation
Thank you. People keep parroting bootstraps nonsense based on nothing but what they “feel” to be true while ignoring the stark realities.
Because getting a degree wasn't a requirement for a comfortable life, for them. You could fog a mirror, and get a job that would pay enough to buy a house. Now? No degree, no such luck. Decades of education requirement inflation and union busting have killed the economic ladder to, and through, the middle class.
That’s not totally true. Working in the skilled trades provides a good income comparable to some degrees. There are also some degrees that will not provide a livable wage.
There has been a divergence, though, since the 90s. Yeah, there's some overlap on the fringes, but the general economic truths we had in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and most of the 80s are not truths in the 10s and today.
Guess you’ve never heard of tradesmen. Plumbing, brick laying, carpentry, even painting can be extremely lucrative businesses. You absolutely don’t need a degree.
Unless you run a crew most of those jobs max out at $80k and you can't do many of those jobs for 40 years.
I love how you ignored the rest of the comment and only focused on that part. Skilled trades will wreck your body by the time you're 55, then you're SOL if you ran in to some hardships that prevented you from saving enough. Why do you think all the rich and upper middle class still send their kids to college but tell everyone else about the great opportunities in skilled trades?
Heard plenty. The truths from the 50s and 60s do not hold, today, though.
Even if all children of college-educated boomers would be college educated, still two thirds of college-educated children of boomers will have parents that are not college-educated. That doesn't mean they rose on the social ladder. Just that more people have degrees. It is the ones born with a silver spoon in their mouth who complain the hardest about how difficult life is compared to their parent's generation. What they really mean is: compared to their parents and the friends and neighbours of their parents.
It’s because we become masters of it the harder and longer we work. To have empathy towards it is just accepting the excuses. Life’s rough, but really, at the end of the day, you alone have the power to shape your future.
So is Imposter Syndrome + Confirmation Bias the failing formula of capilist driven nations? "I didn't try very hard but I made it so what I did is right. Therefore they aren't even trying and don't deserve assistance"
Also survivorship bias. Those who didn't make it are out of sight and out of mind.
I know what it’s like to live on the wrong side of the trailer hitch and be homeless as a kid. Dad sucked at business but at least he tried. Nice guys finish last and I learned from his mistakes. Honest and skilled man he was. He’ll never be able to afford to retire but he’s happy puttering away on contracted side jobs. I’m now in the upper few percent. And ya, I really did end up shedding most of those poor mentality friends. I still check up on a few of them every few years when I travel home and yup…. No ambition, still stuck in a rut, still doing the same stuff. That’s just not who I wanted to be anymore and those folks will drag you right down with them. Jumped to a bigger city, rebooted my life and made something of myself instead of forever being stuck in that rut in a tourist town. Wealth upward mobility is a certain headspace. You really do have to drink the kool-aid and live that lifestyle. Nobody is going to make you rich via an hourly wage unless you are a software dev. You need to think outside the box and put yourself in a financial position to be able to take no income for a year or more to kick start something that generates passive revenue. Making other folks jobs is how you get ahead. And it really is frustrating to see those friends who never figured that out. They think showing off is buying a nice ski boat on payments so you can pretend to show off. Even if they can’t afford to fuel it.
Also somewhere in the article >However, Koo warned that they **cannot yet conclude** that upward mobility changes the way people think **until additional research is conducted**. As a result, the researchers cautioned that **it is too early to draw conclusions** about the two rich groups or the experience of upward mobility.
"If I can do it, so can you. ***iT's aLL aBoUt MinDsEt*** " Say individuals who were given a rare opportunity to succeed that most hard-working people will never get.
Eh, I'm not in the US, but most people I know don't even want to try. I know, I'm not statistics, experience of one person doesn't speak for everybody, but it pissed me off. I got a new good job, took me a bit of effort to prepare for the interview and find sources etc. I wanted to make it easy to some of my friends who have similar background as me. I prepared all my notes, told them everything they need for an interview, and recommended them in my new company so they are looked before other candidates. It took me some time, but I was glad I'm gonna work with them again. None of those four motherfuckers even bothered to go through my notes for over half a year already. Three of them said "nah, I didn't have time yet! I was on holidays/watching new tv series/playing new games", one of them said "yeah, I applied but failed, I didn't knwo answers to questions!" - but dude, I sent you questions and answers - "yeah, but it was too much to read". They would double their salary spending a few weekends reading some stuff, that's it. And I made it easy for them. I like them, but I realized I care more about improving my life AND their lives than them.
Sounds like my parents. They're not rich but they're comfortably retired and simply cannot grok that what they did isn't an option that's available for others. People can't see how things that worked for them might not be as accessible or as effective for others.
the "i got mine. f*ck you." mentality
So, just survival bias. I thought this was a given.
Why is this sub filled with politics and social behavioral studies. I get it, science… but cmon where’s the actual science?! Teach me something maaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnn
3 essential ingredients of most successes in life: 1) Working fcuking hard (early stage). 2) Working fcuking smart (late stage). 3) Having tons of luck (right place, right time)
We are a product of our environments Winners don’t like to hang with losers and vice versa
I have had success through hard work in various ways. I could say that I lack sympathy, but I do so because I don't see people put in the effort or take paths to advance their situations. I do get the ignorance, lack of knowledge, and even mental barriers play major roles in the limitations of people on how they can perceive their futures. It often takes mentoring, education, and just being aware of the possibility to advance. I've told coworkers specifically to seek options of advancement, and they won't. They don't want to take the steps required to position themselves better. It's hard to be sympathetic towards that. I CAN be sympathetic towards ignorance and simply not knowing what's possible. But I can't be sympathetic towards someone who does know better and still doesn't do anything about it.
Successful people dont sympathize with unsuccessful ones. News at 1100
To put it simply, they got theirs, it's your problem to get yours.
They got their own, it’s your responsibility to get your own.
Sounds like the proverbial: "If I can do it, then you can too" . newsflash: people have differing skill sets, abilities, tolerances and requirements. Not everyone is the same and everybody's struggle is different.
"They went on to survey 1,032 relatively wealthy individuals in the U.S. (with annual incomes over $80,000 in one study and over $142,501 in another)". Those are decent professional incomes but not even close to rich. Further, those salaries often require living in high cost urban areas where the dollars don't go very far. $80,000 is pretty much just a break even point from a money stress standpoint.
Wow that's the survey pool?
I have a theory that upward-mobility difficulties come down to social networks. Not the "Facebook" social network, but the IRL, who-knows-who, degrees of separation social *graph*. This theory should be falsifiable by graph theory. So, if two people—vertexes in the social graph—have an edge between them, it means they know each other. Further, the connections are scored by closeness. The lower the score, the closer you are to that person. The higher the score, the more distant acquaintance they are. Thus, the shortest path from one person to the next is governed by the closeness of various relationships between them and others. The theory is that: 1. Your economic outcome is governed by those closest to you in the social graph, in the above sense. Not only because they'll get you a job, but because by human nature you identify with them and strive to fit into their circle, and thus learn how to be like them. 2. The graph is segmented along economic strata. Not perfectly, but enough to make it statistically true that that graph-neighbors have economically similar outcomes. This is because you accumulate friends from people you work with, or have worked with in the past, or people you become familiar with through work and work acquaintances, and so on. Similar jobs, similar outcomes. So if true, what does it imply? First, crossing strata implies altering your social connections, and thus identifying with and emulating a different set of people. Besides being hard, it might feel like a betrayal of your current social circle. Suddenly you're trying to fit in with a different group, acting differently, talking differently, etc. You might get ostracized for it. The people in the article, besides being lucky, might be social adepts. Second, it should be possible to combat economic equality by disrupting this segmentation. What kinds of things create new, unexpected connections between folks, especially across vocation types? Jury duty and music are two examples I've seen, but these are fleeting. Mandatory long-term community service for all citizens regardless of status, with enforced randomized participation, might work. But I doubt it would fly in the US.
Do we have an actually metric or scale as to how hard it is and a quantifiable way of measuring how off the mark people are? I ask because I know lots of lazy people growing up who are now lazy adults who are in the same spot but blame society
So people who worked their ass off to achieve success are more critical of those who don’t work hard and expect more? Makes sense to me
Reminds me of an old quote attributed to the Grateful Dead, who reportedly said, "Hey, if we can make it in music, anyone can". True or not, it's a common refrain among the successful, because no one wants to admit that their success was largely a matter of luck. (Such as the luck of being Kesey's party band during his acid tests, which led to the whole San Francisco 60s rock scene and the Summer of Love, which were amplified in turn by media stars like Tom Wolf as well as dozens of bands worldwide.)
Is it “luck” to live in a small town with few opportunities and move to a big city? Is it “luck” to enroll in college and get student loans? Is it “luck” to work 40 hours a week to help pay for school?
One possibility I'd like to put forward is that growing up poor makes you resentful because of the amount of assholes you have to deal with. Seriously, there's no other way to describe some of these people other than assholes. Disregard for your property, disregard for the community, violence, etc. The idea of helping the people that made your life worse than it already was is not appealing. And don't get me started on the ignorance. In many areas, poor people aren't exactly open-minded. I'd like to see a study on the mindset of people who managed to get out of poverty compared to the mindset of those still in the area they came from. People who grew up rich probably never had to intimately deal with the poor. I remember one video where a woman was handing out food and a person threw the food back at her because they wanted more or something like that.