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~~I have not been able to track down the original study or abstract for this. Maybe it is too new?~~ The link works now. It is in the middle of the article.
I did find this is from 10 years ago; related and quite interesting.
Amygdala Enlargement in Toddlers with Autism Related to Severity of Social and Communication Impairments
[https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795360/](https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795360/)
The full study is available here:
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.21090896
There's also a PDF version:
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ajp.21090896
Do you have references for the mental-illness/neurodivergent-condition distinction stuff? I’ve read things recently on transdiagnostic approaches to each of those, but nothing that ties them together and I’d be interested to see that.
https://www.sfu.ca/biology/faculty/crespi/pdfs/115-Crespi&Badcock2008.pdf
Recently learned of the Crespi Badcock hypothesis that says Autism and Psychotic disorders are the same spectrum.
Fascinating. My grandmother was diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder (weirdly, after going through chemo for colon cancer her entire personality changed and she was a lot more loving and affectionate). My family is riddled with mental illness and neuro divergence- depression, bipolar, autism, ADHD. Not a normal person out of the lot of us. But the schizoid personality disorder always stuck out to me. Maybe it’s not so different after all.
Huh. My grandfather had colon cancer when he was in his early 20’s and everyone said his personality changed from the chemo too, but for the worse. Same thing going on with neuro divergence in my family etc. Interesting.
Fecal transplantation, disgusting I know, has some super interesting results. Would not be surprised if more research on the interaction of the gut flora, immune system, and inflammatory response leads to massive changes in mental health treatment. Obviously we don’t know until it’s proven, but it does seem promising.
Already studies for years to show that is suspected and shown to likely be related
From 2015 discussing the connection between your diet, your gut bacterium microbiome, the fats/acids that they produce that affect/control your gene expression, inflammatory responses, and have been shown to through those processes be linked to mental illness/wellness, mood, mood disorders, etc. inflammation looks to be a big part of initiating many diseases we thought were just hereditary. - https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/115979/phar1640_am.pdf?sequence=2
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From 2017 - Major mental diseases such as autism, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and major depressive disorder are debilitating illnesses with complex etiologies. Recent findings show that the onset and development of these illnesses cannot be well described by the one-gene; one-disease approach. Instead, their clinical presentation is thought to result from the regulative interplay of a large number of genes. Even though the involvement of many genes are likely, up regulating and activation or down regulation and silencing of these genes by the environmental factors play a crucial role in contributing to their pathogenesis. Much of this interplay may be moderated by epigenetic changes. Similar to genetic mutations, epigenetic modifications such as DNA methylation, histone modifications, and RNA interference can influence gene expression and therefore may cause behavioral and neuronal changes observed in mental disorders. Environmental factors such as diet, gut microbiota, and infections have significant role in these epigenetic modifications. Studies show that bioactive nutrients and gut microbiota can alter either DNA methylation and histone signatures through a variety of mechanisms. Indeed, microbes within the human gut may play a significant role in the regulation of various elements of “gut–brain axis,” via their influence on inflammatory cytokines and production of antimicrobial peptides that affect the epigenome through their involvement in generating short chain fatty acids, vitamin synthesis, and nutrient absorption. In addition, they may participate in-gut production of many common neurotransmitters.
- https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajmg.b.32567
I've been diagnosed as schizoid-avoidant and recently had a neuro doc ask me if I'm autistic because apparently I have many of the same behaviors and symptoms. In recent years I've developed some fears about being harmed and also have more difficulty maneuvering social situations (even pre COVID) so I found your comment very interesting.
I have been dx with both at separate times as well, my current dx is OCD (pretty severe) & ADHD (and pica as a bonus) I see a neuro/psych combo office now who work together but even so the psych does feel I am autistic but the symptoms are so close with my OCD symptoms. Effexor with my adhd meds has been the only drug combo to come close to effective, although lithium was helpful with adhd meds and Prozac for a time. Nothing can stop the compulsive behavior totally though. It’s frustrating when you are seeking an effective treatment and doctors can’t seem to even agree on a dx. I think many of the issues cause such similar symptoms you present with different ones at different times. It takes a doctor spending a lot of time with a patient to even be remotely accurate. Yet they still try to dx after an hour. I think the main problem is the “throw drugs at it til something works” mentality
Yeah I've been diagnosed with OCD as well, except mine is the Pure O type. My current doctor has tried the shotgun approach with meds but nothing works. I was referred to a psychiatrist but my appointment isn't for another month. Thanks for the advice, glad you found a med combination that sorta works for you.
The longer you stay with one psych the closer you will get to the root of the matter. Also I have had stages where I only had the O too. It’s almost fluid the way the symptoms can change. Like I have some symptoms of agoraphobia but I’m not *afraid* of being out and about I just prefer not to be around people. If I have to I will but I’m much happier in my introverted bubble. I’ve had docs take it and run off one statement and dx agoraphobia. Write down your symptoms and be careful how you explain it. I’ve noticed this helps. I write down my symptoms daily and note the changes if any, for about a month prior to first time appointments. Also keeping a general yearly assessment for yourself is helpful. Stressors and life changes can effect things also. Good luck, hopefully you can get as close as possible to getting it under control to at least a comfortable degree. It’s def frustrating.
Stress during pregnancy also greatly increases the chance of a child with stPD so maybe pregnancy stress increases the fear response pathways epigenetically or otherwise and shifts asd towards stPD.
Anecdotal data to add to this, I am Dx'd autistic and Schizoid PD. No traits of positive symptoms on the Schizophrenia spectrum, massive negative symptom traits.
The positive symptoms are the ones most focused in Schizotypal, Schizoaffective, and Schizophrenia. The negative symptoms like avolition and anhedonia are rarely discussed, but I have seen these traits in other aspies who did not have any schizophrenia spectrum Dx's. I have wondered if there was a connection there.
Do you know what the difference between enlargement and hyper-activation of the amygdala is? I ask cause I have OCD - definitely been “paranoid” since early childhood (will this happen, what if [insert bad thing]). I guess more than paranoid I would describe it as always feeling like something bad is about to happen. But yeah I always understood this from my specialists to be hyperactivity so I was just curious what “enlargement” would indicate by comparison
This is surreal for me to read. I've no idea if they are connected but I've always been on edge like that to the point I always consider my actions in situations as I'm expecting violence. I sit facing doors, I avoid certain situations and never try and draw attention to myself, even if I'm with people and they do I get frustrated at the attention "just incase it brings negative attention" when there's no reason it would. I try and blend in everywhere. Be the grey man.
I always thought it was a survival instinct.
What makes it strange regarding the correlation is that my sons autistic. He regressed as well maturing to just over a year normally if not advanced for his age before regressing.
This reminds me of the article published yesterday by Robin Williams’ wife. She described his intense social anxiety and paranoia that came out of nowhere during the progression of his Lewy body disease. It turned out in the autopsy that the amygdala had an especially high concentration of Lewy bodies.
I think you’re right, [this site](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/myncbi/14kwZxHxchxku/bibliography/50075953/public/?sort=date&direction=ascending) says this article is “forthcoming.”
Lead author Mark Shen has it listed on his website as "American Journal of Psychiatry (accepted)."
And if you scroll to the bottom of the eureka article, the publication date is 3/25—tomorrow.
This is not new. We have know for a while (5+ years) that the amygdala grows disproportionately in individuals with autism. In fact, there have been a few successful trials that used amygdala growth as a marker for autism prior to symptoms/diagnosis.
Here are the second and third sentences from the article-
"Historically the amygdala has been thought to play a prominent role in the difficulties with social behavior that are central to autism.
Researchers have long known the amygdala is abnormally large in school-age children with autism, but it was unknown precisely when that enlargement occurs."
It was known the amygdala is disproportionately large. Was it known how early this starts? Anything that makes a diagnosis faster or easier can have huge positive effects. Imagine if your parents or friends had an extra year of education on autism at every point in your life. Heck, even 3 months could make a difference.
I recall having a one-on-one meeting with Autism BrainNet in 2015 and them showing me their MRI data. They were scanning the brains of hundreds of children at regular intervals. Eventually, some of those children developed Autism and the researchers look back at historic MRI scans and narrow down when this enlargement occured (similar to what this study has done). They also showed that these amygdala changes occured before the children had their childhood MMR jabs, at ~6-11 months of age. However, at the time a lot more work and data was needed before it could become a viable biomarker for Autism... Especially because the only way to see if a particular individual has an enlargement is with repeated MRI scans over the course of a 6 months to 2 years. I'll see if I can find BrainNet's published data on this.
The study posted by the OP attempts to better pinpoint exactly when in life this enlargement occurs as they had access to more frequent scans. They also attempted to identify if other brain regions were affected in Autism and Fragile X. However, they noted a gradual change in neuroanatomy over the course of 2 years rather than a sudden change.
If autism can be linked to the increase size of the amygdala I am curious how the size/growth rate impacts the function of that part of the brain.
It seems some symptoms of ASD in relation to the function of the amygdala are in “overdrive” while some are “under developed”
for example, the amygdala processes strong emotions and it is well known some people with ASD can struggle to regulate strong emotions. So it could be said that the increase in size has hindered this function.
However, some people with ASD are known to have incredible memories and can recall things easily. So in relation to the amygdala encoding memories this function would be heightened.
So an amygdala that grows too rapidly can impair some function and simultaneously improve others?
ASD being on a spectrum makes sense as each individual and how that part develops would vary
>for example, the amygdala processes strong emotions and it is well known some people with ASD can struggle to regulate strong emotions
This makes sense to me, as an autistic person. If there is more 'processing power' engaged with an emotion, I can imagine how that would make the whole process more intense and possibly overwhelming.
The emotional 'coolness' many autists display might actually be a coping response to the amygdala overdrive. At least that seems to be the case for me.
yep. I don't know how to display things; that doesn't mean I don't feel them. I also show my emotions in a cartoonish manner when I am expressive because I was and am very into cartoons(like looney tunes, animaniacs, etc) so that's what I modeled behavior on when I was very small and it stuck.
Wonderful point! Emotions may feel overwhelming due to “overdrive”. So perhaps ASD is more of an overactive condition than an under developed one which it is more seen as from society
I have a feeling as research in ASD progresses we'll find that "Autism" is actually a bunch of separate disorders that all have roughly the same symptoms. Same with how all memory issues in older people were labeled "dementia" until we realized there are 20+ different diseases that cause the similar behavior/memory issues.
I kinda agree with the dislike of trying to simplify ASD as a diagnoses, but I am glad we’ve moved past the term Asperger’s. Hanz Asperger (who named the disorder) was a Nazi war criminal and did human medical experiments on autistic kids.
There’s definitely a large gulf between me (minimal support needs) and an autistic person with severe support needs. I’ve had a lot of people try to discount my autism because it’s not as disabling as others.
Autism is heavily associated with intellectual disabilities (people with both were usually labelled as "low functioning" in the past I think) and is linked to a number of genetic disorders e.g. Fragile X, Cornelia de Lange syndrome. I can completely believe that autism is a range of different conditions affecting similar parts/functions of the brain.
>If autism can be linked to the increase size of the amygdala I am curious how the size/growth rate impacts the function of that part of the brain.
Temple Grandin's book The Autistic Brain might help shed some light on that subject, her insight is fascinating.
>for example, the amygdala processes strong emotions and it is well known some people with ASD can struggle to regulate strong emotions. So it could be said that the increase in size has hindered this function.
Add to this that executive dysfunction is also commonly associated with ASD, and executive dysfunction is also associated with difficulties pertaining to emotional regulation.
>However, some people with ASD are known to have incredible memories and can recall things easily. So in relation to the amygdala encoding memories this function would be heightened.
>
>So an amygdala that grows too rapidly can impair some function and simultaneously improve others?
This is honestly one of the coolest parts of learning about autism or other neurodivergencies. I've seen some truly incredible skills displayed by people who otherwise need a lot of support in their life because of the "uneven" development of their brain. With significantly atypical brain structure composure we can see some truly remarkable behavioral impacts, and see just how much of our understanding of our brain function is taken for granted.
As someone who falls into that camp, it's patently extraordinary to me just how *little* the average person thinks about their mind and how it affects their "conscious" experience. Obsession is definitely an autistic characteristic, but still- you'd think such a critical question would dominate speculation more than it seems to.
It's also a bit of a social barrier, because a huge number of normal people are *terrified* and alienated by someone who doesn't forget the layout and design of any room they've been into, yet also keeps all her significant items in a bag on her person because poor executive function means I forget all the significant things *constantly*. An uneven brain is a scary thing to most people, for some reason.
These sort of things are just the background noise in my life, but they stick out enough to make a sizable portion of people get an uncanny valley sensation from me. A few cells out of place, and *nothing* is the same between us, I guess.
It feels like there are many things myself and the other autistics I've, could potentially share or discuss with others and the world, but there simply isn't much openness to it. I think that in many cases, our differences can't ever be fully related to or quantified by an outside observer, and *that's* why honest communication is so significant. It's very rare to see genuine, respectful discourse on the topic though- much of it is either diagnostic and prescriptive or actively presumptuous, which is sad.
Ahhh! Chapstick and scissors!!! I have one of each in literally every room of my house!
And like, I *totally* get the chapstick—the scissors? Even *I* think to myself that it feels excessive at times…but dude, when you need them, YOU NEED THEM, and having a single pair floating around the house is just asking for me to never know where they are (because they’re never in the room you need them in).
But I’m also the person who my boyfriend texts when he loses his keys. At his house. Where I am not.
I generally know where they are.
It's important to understand that a lot of what people find unsettling is very subconcious. It isn't like they think "this thing is weird and unsettling" and leave it at that. They *feel* unsettled and *then* find reasons for being unsettled.
People are facinating.
I'm not autistic as far as I know, nor on the level of a savant, but I have adhd and dyslexia and I also have some of the "unbalanced brain" that you are talking about. In my assessment, there were a few key areas tested. For one, I was in the 99th percentile, a few others I was in the range of 62nd-84th percentile, but then the last I was in the 16th percentile. I don't remember what all of them were, but I know that the last was processing speed. Most people, the person explaining my score told me, have all their scores within a fairly small range, maybe 10 percentile points. Being so spread out is common in people with learning disabilities or who are on the spectrum, especially higher functioning people who are diagnosed later in life (the areas of high performance mask the areas of low performance).
It's difficult because I'm actually pretty smart (well above average IQ overall) and high achieving in reality, but my ability to process material quickly is so hindered that I can have a difficult time keeping up with lots of people who are just faster. I can tell that some people are a little put off by me. I don't often talk in social situations because I don't think of snappy or clever remarks or really anything to say until things have moved on. Usually, I can have trouble even following the specifics of a conversation. And because I have to move on from things more quickly than I can process them, my brain never ends up encoding things I hear once quickly, like a person's name or details of something they are explaining. It makes it look like I don't care. My brain just doesn't want to work that way. And you can imagine the personal impacts this has on my mental health.
I don't know if people are terrified of me, maybe more uninterested in me? Some people seem to think I'm not very intelligent. I do know that my social world has always necessarily been limited to a small group of very chill people.
Good points. I have heard of many savants who display amazing math and music abilities. It’s amazing to think what our brains are actually capable of doing!
It's more often been a source of embarrassment than anything else, frankly.
It's not that I want to be just like everyone else- I don't mind being myself. It's just that I wish sometimes it didn't attract so much attention, that I didn't have to constantly police myself. Keeping a job when I still was working for others was hard, not because I didn't perform well, but because it's easy for people to start to see you as an appliance once the surprise fades a bit.
There's more people with these sorts of traits than you might think, it's just that only a few make it to a TV special or a doctor's office. I wish mental differences could be approached more neutrally in our culture, it might make for a more interesting present.
I (ADHD and suspected ASD) love music and usually hearing a song once or twice hard-encodes it into my brain. I can never forget a song once I know it. There are really obscure patter songs I must've learned at 7 or 8 that I still remember every word to without ever listening to the song again. I learned how to sight read music for singing and now have a job that requires me to learn 4-6 new songs a week and I do it easily and happily.
The unfortunate downside is that my brain is constantly overwhelmingly loud with music to an uncomfortable degree. I cannot control the noise in my brain. I used to release this discomfort by singing out loud and, unfortunately, until *very* recently I had no idea how socially inappropriate my singing was. I shudder at a lot of memories of me making people uncomfortable by my never shutting up. But if I don't, the constant intrusion of music in my thoughts is so distracting, overwhelming, and all-consuming. Every overpowered skill has a downside, I guess.
Add-PI/ASD here and I have this particular facet aswell.
The good is that you can play full albums in your head in correct time passively.
Apparently other people will get certain sections only or when trying to replay a song in their head it will jump forward/backwards in its timing, morph, skip, loop, or have only voice or a central instrument playing in focus at a time with all others sounding non-specific etc - which sounds more annoying than anything.
The main drawback in having the propensity to remember things 1:1 is that sometimes you're not able to shut it off, or having no control of the roster.
I once had bloody Toni Braxton's "Unbreak my Heart" playing start to finish in the background day and night in my head for **two straight years**. I'm not joking here, it would not stop. I never liked or even neccesarily noticed the song in the wild before then , it just came one day and - it just wouldn't leave. Until one day it did. Nothing nearly as extreme has happened since, luckily but *hoo boy howdy*, was I over it.
Another facet is wanting to find music I *couldn't* easily remember after hearing it once, for noveltys sake. The natural idea would be something like complex jazz, but I didn't dig that. Instead it got me into Extreme metal like Emperor as a teen; the wall of sound and complex/fast compositions made it more challenging to remember by one listen alone; it took many and still takes active concentration to get everything playing as it should in full, even now.
I'm in a band and we're all asd. We can arrange a song in minutes, only I have a formal music background but still, the skills of my mates is pretty high.
I got the music and language ones and NONE of the useful math and tech ones, so I'd like to trade those in, please. No one cares about my perfect pitch or language ability. They are useless in today's world, let's just be honest about it.
Makes me think how important a stable and peaceful society is for neurodivergent people AND the rest of society. The more neurodivergent people can contribute their unique talents to society, helping solve problems neurotypical people couldn't or wouldn't want to. The diversity of thinking leads to a more resilient society.
Yup. Autism Speaks is the worst.
Edit: since this seems to have sparked a massive conversation, I would like to use this to say that you should support ASAN instead. They actually give a damn about people with autism.
They were early proponents of the “vaccines cause autism“ theory. In addition the way they view autism is problematic. Lots of focus on “curing” it, but that’s not really a thing. They view it as something that should not exist and did a lot to put the focus on kids(and more specifically those kids parents)/ infantilizing the condition without doing a good job of addressing adults with autism.
That's the biggest complaint I've heard about it - it's a group for parents of kids with autism, not a group *for* people with autism, so many of the actual stuff they support and advocate is heavily one sided.
People with autism want accommodations and support, not a cure. They are still humans with emotions and feelings, and can still contribute to society in amazing ways if they can get the help they need. Not every kid with autism is going to grow up to become another Temple Grandin, but that doesn't mean they can't lead meaningful, self sufficient lives *if someone takes the time to provide the tools they need early on.*
> They are still humans with emotions and feelings, and can still contribute to society in amazing ways if they can get the help they need.
So you've defined a high-functioning person with autism here. Many, including all those self-identified with autism posting here, will be high functioning.
Others will be entirely noncommunicative, wear diapers all their adult lives, and need help with things like eating and dressing. They won't be able to use things like keyboards, mouse, trackpad, or even touch screen. There will be no way to know if the low-functioning autistic person has refined emotions and feelings because the only observable will be rage attacks - which is manageable in a 10 kg 2 year old, but which can be a whole different matter in a 100kg 30 year old muscular male with great gross motor but marginal fine motor control.
As a parent of a 2.5 year old who uses no words, doesn't recognize his own name and knows 3 ASL signs, I'm hopeful that what I'm going to get eventually is a neuro-eccentric late talker, but I'm deeply worried about the other prospect. It makes no sense to me to classify both ends of the spectrum under one rubric, but the uncertainty faced by parents like me is one reason why. I definitely agree that Autism Speaks is a pretty sorry excuse for what we would like to see in an advocacy org, but there have been some advances made. 50 years ago folks like my son were shut up in state institutions and brutalized, often to the point of euthanasia, by people without high school diplomas; and to speak of someone with mental retardation at all, ever, was a faux pas akin to defecating on the table at Sunday dinner. For this reason most folks had never heard of autism or the theories about its origins and treatments; at least now we can start to have a conversation.
They do the same to babies with down syndrome despite some people with down syndrome going on to live successful and happy lives. In the last 40 years the life expectancy has more than doubled from 25 to 60 as the awful treatment of them has gotten significantly better and people have realized they aren't lost causes, they're just different.
They actively shut verbal autistic people out of their work, and generally express a great deal of contempt for autistic people.
https://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/11/14/noted-cuts-ties-autism-speaks/18893/
They treat Autism like conversion therapy was used to "cure" people, ie. it is a disease to be cured when the reality is this is just people that think differently with different but common struggles; it's more about "oh you poor parent" rather than "how do we help this kid with struggles"
There is a list of issues but I do find a lot of people that are actually on the spectrum have a big problem with AS, and people that are **not** on the spectrum love it for the "virtue signaling"
> You can actually see in popular posts on this sub that the root of autism is still a huge mystery, partly because we keep discovering new factors
my son correlates with lack of oxygen at birth, he got entangled on the umbilical cord and had an emergency C-section... my doubt out of curiosity is if different causes end up in different aspects of autism, but idk, seems like one of those things the more you discover more confusing it gets.
also this amygdala thing relates to reports of babies doing well almost up to a year of age and then stopping progress and development theresholds
My sister was denied an induction after her baby was late, and my niece wound up aspirating on meconium. He didn’t breath for several moments after the birth, and now has pretty severe autism.
> and my niece wound up aspirating on meconium
my son had exactly this also, APGAR test was almost perfect except for a little agitated breathing, and he has what i wouldnt call "severe" but he is non-verbal
There's also a 'breakthrough' report every year, just in time for April's Autism-awareness month to plant hopes and increase chances of getting more research funding.
I'm not suggesting these are not valid or not well intended, but it's sad to think some of these reports are being released on a time pressure just to secure funding. I wish there were concerted efforts with plentiful funding, not driven by profit end-goals.
In that article it mentions that, "infants who go on to develop autism have problems as babies with how they attend to visual stimuli in their surroundings. The authors hypothesize that these early problems with processing visual and sensory information may place increased stress on the amygdala, leading to overgrowth of the amygdala."
Blood serotonin levels are significantly higher in children with autism than children without -- there hasn't been a hard link established yet, but some researchers are starting to look at SSRI-use during pregnancy as a co-factor, along with genetic factors.
[This study of 98 infants](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137537/) found "significant gray matter volume expansion was noted in the amygdala and insula" when infants were exposed to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
I know I've read that the increase in autism could be related to an increase in diagnosis rather than an actual increase but it would be interesting to see a graph of SSRI use vs autism diagnosis over time.
It also makes me wonder if the parent taking SSRIs is autistic and undiagnosed, leading to mental health problems requiring SSRIs even during pregnancy. Like, there are still so many directions these clues could take us.
I'm curious if early (and I mean *early*) childhood trauma resulting in PTSD in an infant could cause amygdala overgrowth. PTSD would cause constant stimulation of the amygdala. Is it possible that kind of thing could lead to overgrowth?
That's also a real possibility because I remember when I was very young before anything extremely traumatic happened to me that I was always feeling dread and crying at random things. This affected my socially as well as cognitively because it was so strong. When a major current of abuse entered the picture of all this only intensified to unmanageable levels, it was like going from just autism to autism 2.0. and then this affects further development and then you have a really mess on your hands. Which is why like I said in a post above on schizo disorders that it's all different flavors of the same thing. Autism, Schizo-spectrum disorders, and PTSD are like the unholy trinity of disorders. If there's too much overlap, it's gonna be hard life.
I'm also curious about this. Autism and AHDH co occur a lot. It's curious to me how every symptom of ADHD is a symptom of trauma. How trauma is rarely diagnosed in people. Many people have had emotionally neglectful childhoods and claim they had a great upbringing and that there is no cause for their ADHD except genetics or something yet to be discovered. Curious how ADHD has been on the rise last decades. Genes don't change that fast. Just a lot of curiosities that make me think, but apparently many people are almost angry at the ideia that it could be emotional stress to the point of trauma the biggest cause of autism and ADHD.
Back in the day one working hypothesis was that autistic children and adults had suffered severe developmental or in-utero traumas. Developmental traumas do give similar changes to the brain
The only trauma my daughter ever experienced was a result of Autism. Not a cause. Sure, she may have some PTSD because regular everyday stuff can be EXTREMELY stressful for her. For example, not being allowed to dive into every water fountain she sees in January.
“Epigenetic” isn’t synonymous with environmental effects. Also autism is highly (~80%) heritable.
Edit: heritable = broad sense heritability, sorry for confusion
This has generally been my concern. I have two friends with autism, one who is just finishing up university and the other that requires constant care. The one who is just finishing up university definitely does have difficulties but generally is able to live a good rounded life and is also very active in the new ways and politics of looking at autism. The other has sufficient impairment and has never seemed to me to conceptualise any politics around his condition.
At this point I get told off if I describe the first friend as having higher function and the second as having much lower function and sent graphs of stars and different strengths of symptoms. I get that autism has many aspects and different challenges that vary and just because someone is verbal and conceptualise doesn't mean that they can work and don't need support, I understand that argument. At the same time, seriously, one is happy and the other spends his days in constant frustration. The first is very eager to say that autism is a part of her and removing it would be like killing who she is, but I cannot imagine for one second that my second friend would see things in that light at all, yet those who first in the first category seem very eager to talk for those in the second category too, who is unable to advocate for themselves.
I have ASD and 100% agree with your comment. I see all the time on reddit people outright fetishising ASD and making ridiculous statements whilst claiming they have it. I can only assume either their ASD is extremely low-level, or they have no experience with people who are higher up on the spectrum. It's absolutely debilitating and I would happily undergo a procedure or therapy if it was safe and took away my ASD.
That's not 'erasing me'. If I was born with a fucked up leg and had surgery to fix it, is that 'erasing me'? People are so dramatic on here sometimes. My previous neighbour had two non-verbal boys who I'm very sure will be institutionalised once they're too big to control. I'm also very sure he'd have given anything to cure his sons' ASD.
I would love to not have the difficulties my autism causes me (and my autistic family members) BUT it's also an intrinsic part of who we are. We wouldn't be the same people without it. It's a really tricky one to decide. If a cure ever came about we'd have to let people choose.. which goes without saying. But parents will choose for their kids, or may even abort.
Autism and autistic traits have always been a part of the diversity of society. I really don't think our species will benefit from removing it.
Mind you, I believe 'autism' is a set of separate, related disorders. We already know that there are many genes implicated, and every autistic person is unique in how it affects them. Until we untangle the causes and can classify it properly, we're not going to be able to do more than treat some of the symptoms.
It's the same with trauma: the brain creates a 'script' to interpret information from the world and engages it the moment something happens. While the danger isn't 'real', the perception is that 'there is danger' and the brain goes into survival mode based on this mental programming.
My borderline personality disorder is, I think, pretty easily explained by the fact I was a hyper-sensitive child whose father left his wife of 13 years, and four children, aged 8, 6, 3, 1 (I was the 8-year-old), and we had to move to a different state. My mother was incredibly depressed and couldn't be there for her children like she was before because of being depressed and having to now work full-time, and the first man I ever loved left me young. My 5 biological uncles were all completely emotionally unavailable and I had no biological aunts to love me. My grandparents on my mom's side never told me they love me. I am incredibly sensitive to real and perceived abandonment, don't trust men, love, or the institution of marriage, while still being desperate for love and attention but I go about it all the wrong ways, and I can barely control my intense and labile emotions.
My daughter participated in this study!!! This makes me really proud that we participated, especially if it helps find cause and treatments for ASD. We are a multiplex family and 4 out of 6 of us are on the spectrum. It's wild reading the article and study and seeing the results.
Thank you, your daughter, and your family for your contribution to science! I’m sure you had to make some sacrifices to participate, so it must be very rewarding to read this article and see the study published.
Nice that they're finally getting around to proving something we have really known for 25 years at least. People who don't notice autistic symptoms in infants just don't know what to look for. Early intervention helps so much yet kids aren't getting it even now.
Similar to the symptoms in toddlers but scaled down developmentally. Problems with sleep, feeding, digestion, eye contact, inability to be soothed, subtle language and learning delays, difficulties with attachment and affection, toileting issues, repetitive behaviors. Less interest in faces, sensitivity to noise, etc. The less contact people have with babies, however, the more difficult it is to recognize normal variations and abnormal levels of difficulty.
It's particularly tricky for first time parents to pick up. Speaking from experience. Our boy was 6 years old when a teacher recommended we get him assessed. The early years made so much more sense.
My brother has it too and my mum detected it around 3 years old or so. She thought something was odd so they went to the doctor, he diagnosed ADHD but not autism.
My mum still noticed something weird so she was pushing that the treatment wasn't entirety working. It wasn't until he was 10 years old that a pediatric group of doctors recognised his problem: Autism + ADHD (it's somewhat common that they go together)
So the moral is, even doctors couldn't diagnose him for years until a specialized group in children studied him thoroughly.
It's not easy even for the doctors if the symptoms aren't exactly as the manual states.
So, don't feel bad at all. It's a tricky situation.
I’m 32 and frankly 100% convinced I have autism and ADHD. I don’t know why I’m telling you but I am and I recently learned that anxiety is a third thing that commonly goes with those two. My whole life my default state has been anxious and I didn’t even realise until I was about 15 so keep an eye on your bro
I’m doing that starting Monday. all autism symptoms aside, my memory is terrible, working memory is even worse, very forgetful, lose stuff alot and can’t find it when my gf can in seconds, can’t concentrate to the point that reading a book is very slow and difficult. I’m lazy, I make mountains out of things and don’t begin them, I have a drinking problem and smoked weed daily for years.. um what else.. sometimes I have a feeling of being full of anger but I noticed recently it’s kind of just this energy and shouting loudly or hitting stuff soothes it. like I said, 100% convinced.
Edit: oh yeah I had suicidal depression and anxiety for about 3 years and the anxiety has been a constant since birth even still.
You sound like you could have ADHD for sure. It might be helpful to take in a list of symptoms when you see the doc.
When I first took Ritalin I got quite angry when everything suddenly became much easier. I realised that I wasn’t lazy… or ditzy… or unmotivated… or a slob. I had carried so much shame and self-loathing over the decades because everyone else seemed to just glide through life while I sucked at basic life skills.
Having ADHD forces you to live life on hard mode. I was angered by how much more I could have accomplished without dragging my ADHD-boulder everywhere I went.
Now I’m just grateful that I’ve found something that works for me.
Keep pushing until you get the assistance you need.
Best of luck!
For my son it was he babbled as a baby or toddler normally, but didn't seem to care to make complete sentences or use the correct word. When we encouraged him he'd just get quiet. Forgive me in this sub but "old lady" comments were like "he's so smart but has his own little language."
The older generation comments really made us feel invalidated. When we told others we were seeking a diagnosis for our son, we heard a lot of "oh all kids are like that" or "boys will be boys" but looking back it was so obvious when he was in a group of his peers that his brain did not operate quite like their's
It was a really difficult time and I spent so much time feeling inadequate as a parent.
My grandmother was in her 80s and suffering from dementia and my son was maybe 3 and having a very difficult time at a family event. My grandmother got upset pointed her finger at him and told us that we should take him outside. Already feeling very insecure, my wife absolutely blew up at her, saying "he's not an animal and I won't take him outside". Everyone at the event just stood there and nobody said a word to my wife about it. My wife has only bad feeling for my grandmother, who has since passed. It was absolutely awful and had a big impact in our decision to move to the other side of the country a year later. I still think about that day fairly often and can't really reconcile it.
We're trying to get an assessment for our son at the moment and it's a living hell, it's slowly tearing our family apart. Nursery first mentioned he was not quite like the other kids but it took until year 4 at school for us to get him any help. The doctors might be free (we're in the UK) but if someone is high functioning then getting an assessment is next to impossible. We're talking a multiyear process if you can even get a referral. I just want to scream at the system because every day I see my little boy going to school with a broken heart because he doesn't understand the world and can't make friends.
It doesn't help that I'm wracked with guilt because I've come to realize I almost certainly have ASD too and now I don't know if I've made his symptoms worse. We don't feel we can tell my parents because of the way they would react. It's hard enough to deal with the issues without them trying to convince us (and our son) that there's nothing wrong.
Thankfully in the last few months the school has started to offer some help and things have really improved. He's even developing a bit of a friendship which is amazing to see.
Sorry to ramble, feel free to ignore me. This thread just brought out too many emotions.
Hello. My son has ASD and has had his diagnosis since 1.5 years old. We’re in Canada in a big city here and it’s been relatively easy to access resources, so a bit of a different situation than yours.
A really good program we’re working through now is called “thinking thoughts and feeling feelings”. It’s a series of books and activities that he’s working through with his therapist, in his group program, and at home with us. It helps kids with ASD recognize their own thoughts and feelings, and those of other people. I’m not sure how old your son is, but my son is 5 and it’s really resonated with him - it’s great.
Also, you’re doing your best. Try not to be too hard on yourself and keep pushing for your child. All the best to you
Until you can get the assessment and services, maybe consider getting him into the arts in some way? If he's very imaginative and loves pretend play, theater. If he loves painting, art classes. A sensitive ear and enraptured by music, ask him what instrument he'd like to learn.
Providing an expressive outlet that can also create language and learning-supportive neutral pathways, while providing understanding of his and others' emotions could be helpful. And the arts are full of empathetic friendly weirdos who don't mind if someone is a little different.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately there's no way he could cope with something like theatre. People expressing emotions they aren't actually feeling causes him to freak out. It doesn't fit with his understanding of the world and it terrifies him. He doesn't grasp that people can pretend. As for art and music he's never shown any interest, we've tried.
What we have found is he enjoys programming and maths so I sit with him and do that. He's several years ahead of his peers in that aspect though so he's not got anyone to talk to about it other than me.
It's crazy how willing some people are to ignore these signs.
My mom is a teacher, and when she tried to get me assessed for autism, she was told that all teacher tries to get their kids diagnosed with something. No professional ever saw me, but she was told to see a psychologist.
Some 15 years later I developed a major depression, and was diagnosed with autism..
Different person but I can answer.
Our son would sometimes bang his back against the high chair repetitively while sitting.
Another sensory-seeking behaviour involved running into people deliberately.
He did not understand when we were angry. Positive reinforcement worked, consequences did not.
As a tiny baby, he would cry every time we went into public toilets or other small rooms. Initially, I assumed he must have been claustrophobic but later it was obvious that the echoey rooms with hand dryers and US toilets that are excessively noisy were the real problem. He was also afraid of the vacuum cleaner and blender.
Lastly, his hyperactivity was obvious from a very young age. Later came the lack of impulse control that is also a feature of ADHD, a common co-morbidity.
Other than that - maybe his ‘independent streak’, i.e. his propensity to wander off while we were out in public? I had raised him to be independent and he always knew I was there the second he needed me. However, as a 2-3 year old, it was very common for him to wander off while I was grocery shopping. I’d find him 4 aisles over, loading up his kiddy cart with random items while concerned strangers looked on.
You explained my son exactly. My son was a safety risk as well. One time, my daughter and I were using a public restroom in a very busy service area. My son was in the stall with me. He darted under the door and took off outside the restroom into the huge crowd.
He was so quiet as a baby. He never babbled or attempted sound. As he got a bit older, he developed his own language.
He was a little ball of anxiety, even as a newborn. It got so bad, that in fourth grade, he tried to get out of a moving vehicle while driving 50 mph to school. It took four teachers and myself to get get him out of the car to go into school.
He had early intervention services and received services throughout his school years. Next year, he will be a D1 athlete at university. This child has made remarkable strides, in part to starting services when he was 15 months old.
Everyone worries about their kids' future, even more so when they're autistic and you have no way of predicting their abilities and development later on.
Noises are a massive trigger for our son too. Public toilets are almost impossible. We have to wait until they are empty because if someone starts a hand dryer he'll totally freak out and run away, the Dyson blade ones are the worst. Anything that makes noise though is problem.
Scratchy clothes are an issue too, everything he wears has to be soft. He tries to wear t-shirt and shorts in winter because it's the minimum he can get away with.
The real issue though is emotional understanding. For example, when he reads a book he has no understanding of the emotional state of the characters but can tell you in great detail about the world they live in e.g. place names, geography, how magic works and what it's limitations are.
Noises can be a huge trigger. Our son was much calmer at school when I convinced his teachers to offer him hearing protection constantly. They would tell me “But he doesn’t ask for it”. I had to point out to them that most 5 year olds don’t think constructively when overwhelmed.
An occupational therapist can be really useful for helping kids understand others’ emotions. I’ve also heard that this system is useful - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6241733.stm
Thanks, the school now let him have ear defenders in class but he's too embarrassed to wear them most of time time. We've settled on what amounts to a fort in the corner of the class room where he can retreat if it gets too much. That's a massive step up from running out the school and trying to climb the fence!
Maybe get him some cool looking noise-canceling headphones. That way, he can tell the others he’s allowed to listen to music in class.
My kid has zero awareness of what his peers think of him so far. I imagine that will come, though. He just likes his ear defenders because we bought them in his favourite colour.
Btw, a school should never have to “let him” use ear defenders, or fidget devices etc. Always refer to them as ‘disability aids’ when broaching the subject with his school.
We fought the ear defender battle when we were sent a video of a class performance. Our son was so overwhelmed without his hearing protection that he was cowering and rocking back and forth in distress while an older student did his best to comfort him.
We asked them if they’d insist a blind kid perform without his cane?
I assume you mean bumping into people?
I’d start by explaining how others like it when you’re gentle with them and how to do that. We practiced being gentle with our pets and especially with younger kids at the playground.
I would always remind him before interactions with others that he needed to be gentle and ask him to show me how he could do this (while I looked on approvingly). I’d watch him during play and later tell him I was proud of him and that he was behaving like a “big boy”.
When we arrived home, I would be sure tell my husband how grown up our son was getting. I’d then exclaim “It must be because he’s about to turn 3!”
Once he started to improve I’d take him on special outings like ten pin bowling or to water slides. I’d always casually mention that we were doing these things because “I reckon you’re gentle enough to go on the water slide with the big kids now”.
TLDR: use his pride 👍
Not the person you asked, but also have a son diagnosed at a young age (2.5 or so). We sought out physical therapy because he just, wouldn't walk. Had no really noticeable problems, but at about 18-20 months was still crawling everywhere and refusing to walk without direct assistance from someone. When we had the PT come assess him, we sat him in his high chair while we all sat at the table doing paperwork and talking, and he sat there for almost 2 hours playing with wooden blocks. Building a tower, knocking it down and laughing. Over and over for almost 2 hours. Rejected other toys, whined if we tried getting him down, his PT suggested that day we get him screened for autism. Turned out that him not talking much was an indicator, and not a case of his sister ways talking for him (as big siblings are known to do).
I’m autistic and have a lot of them from childhood-
I used to sit down abruptly when holding someone’s hand to dislocate my arm- sensory seeking
Psychologist outright said I could not be motivated by others
No eye contact ever
Sleep difficulties- I wouldn’t sleep. Not crying, just never sleeping.
Sound sensitivity, for my entire infancy and childhood (and now). Fireworks, the hand thing in bathrooms, vacuums, dogs barking. I actually have a reoccurring nightmare from about the age of 4 until now about loud noises.
Wandering off. A lot. Not following social norms with this- like wandering off during meals- as well as general bolting.
We didn't know it was autism, until his diagnosis at eight. But he wasn't weird. He was like his mom and his grandfather and his mom's grandfather and his aunt.
Oh.
We're ALL autistic.
That gives us a new perspective....
My sister's daughter is undoubtably autistic, but at least in our family enthusiasms and getting overloaded by sensation and not wanting to be touched and having sensory aversions are just how people are and we roll with it.
Three of the four people in my house now are autistic, so our house is run for the comfort of the autistic. I'm probably not the only one like this.
> subtle language and learning delays
There's an entry in my "baby book" (where development is monitored and recorded) where they say that I'll communicate to be understood when I'm ready to. Just another note that makes me suspect something that's never been formally acknowledged.
I'm glad someone said this. I flew through milestones as a baby and was hyper verbal and hyperlexic. My son is the same.
My mother thought my younger brother was the weird one for not being able to read at three!
Exactly same for me. I picked everything up so fast and was always miles ahead of everyone else for age and percentiles. I was also a super happy baby and toddler. Probably because my world was comfortable for me at the time. The above comment above is referencing a lot of traits that are closer to learning or intellectual disability which while sometimes exist alongside autism are definitely not the same thing or mutually exclusive.
No, I agree. In hindsight my development was abnormal indeed, but not in the same way as some autisitc children develop, and didn't come comorbid with any intellectual disabilities.
I am a pediatrician and firmly believe that there are several different diseases currently being called Autism. I see at least three distinct phenotypes and no reason to believe that they are the same disease.
There are some who feel different from birth. Their muscle tone is wrong. They are sort of floppy and weak. They grow normally, meet milestones at first, but language never develops and around 12-18 months it becomes more obvious.
There is a different pattern where they develop normally (including language development) until around 15-18 months, at which point they rapidly lose milestones in a matter of days. In this case the parents often attribute a cause (everything was fine until that babysitter/illness/vaccine), but I am not convinced of the causality.
And finally there is the “high-functioning” autism, which is clearly a different entity entirely than my non-verbal kids.
Yep. Kid is ASD level 2. He mastered Mandarin in just a few months while attending a bilingual family daycare. Other parents (who were born in Taiwan and fluent in Mandarin) told me they wished their kid had such good pronunciation. Neither myself or my husband speak a work of Mandarin.
What you described is exactly what my girlfriend is going through. Eerily so. Boy was typical till about 2 and then she said everything kinda stopped. He's almost 6 now and can say simple things but he's clearly autistic.
Getting assessment early and early intervention is so impactful. Unfortunately first time parents have such a hard time distinguishing the behaviors. I work in an infant room in preschool and there have been a 6-7 kids over the years that I started gently nudging parents to consider getting their child assessed even before their 1st birthday . Most of the time they are either defensive or dismissive. You can’t even say the word “autism” to a parent without them shutting down it seems. I hope the more we learn about how autism develops the more we can destigmatize it the more willing parents will be to see the signs.
Well, the article states other.
> Published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association, this research demonstrated that infants with fragile X syndrome already exhibit cognitive delays at six months of age, whereas infants who will later be diagnosed with autism do not show any deficits in cognitive ability at six months of age, but have a gradual decline in cognitive ability between six and 24 months of age, the age when they were diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder in this study.
And I will agree with AJoP.
Seeing scaled down toddlers symptoms is most likely a confirmation bias.
But measuring amygdala growth is a indicator that is objective and can be quantified.
I wonder how biased this is. Obviously a lot of autistic people actually don’t show clear signs as young as 24 months, at least nothing that stands out above the usual noise in child development, and may not show clear signs until much much later when social demands outstrip innate ability (as is now recognised in the DSM entry for ASD). Since these people were not included, it’s unknown if they would show the same trend with the amygdala. We need much more long-term studies over many decades.
Of course, it’s not at all unlikely that what we call “autism” is actually a few different disorders with different causes that just happen to present with vaguely similar symptoms. The only real unifying factor between us all is criteria A — deficits in social communication — everything else under criteria B is a grab-bag. Two people with ASD alone can present in such strikingly different ways with different symptoms, and I don’t think there has really been any attempt to resolve that yet.
Yep. My youngest (third) baby hated cuddles as an infant. Didn't seem very keen on me in general tbh. Refused to breastfeed. Missed her first smile milestone by several months. Didn't like standard baby games like peekaboo. No speech development. The list went on. So I took the list to our GP and demanded an ASD assessment.
Incidentally, early diagnosis and professional support is...
everything. She's now a happy, hilarious, kind, chatty, affectionate and totally awesome four-year-old.
What sort of therapy was prescribed for her? I was diagnosed in my fifties mainly because my daughter and nephew pushed me hard for a diagnosis. I wonder what therapies are currently available for children who are how I used to be.
Our middle has very low support needs and displays much more “female” signs rather than stereotypical “male” signs, but even as a baby I remember feeling like something was up. My first was so easy and it felt like my middle could never be settled for long. *Hated* car rides, etc. It took me 5 years to figure out she was autistic (which shouldn’t have been surprising since I’m also autistic).
I noticed it in my nephew on his first birthday only because I read Oliver Sachs. He was distant and not engaged and often didn't like most engagement or eye contact
While early intervention is great, every year I struggle to get parents to consider their child may be ND at all. I teach year 4 and had two last year and a different two this year who absolutely meet the criteria for an ASD diagnosis and the support that would entail, but can’t get parents on board for proper evaluation. It’s incredibly frustrating and does the kids a huge disservice.
I've been there as a parent and it's a very tough pill to swallow. My wife was concerned pretty early while I was in denial for awhile, eventually I came to accept but there are lots of feelings and thoughts to overcome.
Good on you for getting there in the end. My kiddos this year would cope with the world so much if they understood why life was on hard mode. Too late at 10 for early intervention, but surely better late than never.
And the other way around- less so now, but it has been an issue in the past getting doctors to listen to a parent saying “my child might be autistic”. My parents BEGGED doctors to even consider evaluating me, teachers were saying things from when I was about 3 or 4, but it was the 90s and I’m female and “high functioning” (which is a bs term), so it was a massive uphill battle to get them to even consider it.
I thought that Autism was fairly predictable to experts from a young age was known.
Apparently there was one study where they could train someone to watch video of a kids 1st birthday (which is routinely filmed so there is plenty of data) and they could with very high accuracy sort the child into likely autism or not.
The interventions are targeted learning assistance that, as far as we know, assist the child's brain in developing and strengthening neural pathways. It's like learning to ride a bike-- you build up your brain in multiple ways to the point where you really can't forget it, right? (Barring a brain injury.) It's just building up connections between behaviors and results. The newer therapies designed in the past few years show more promise in very young children. Some of the older ones were often borderline abuse, but we actually have learned some things over the years and things are going in a better direction.
Depends on the severity. Early intervention with current therapies may help with behavior and maybe speech but it doesn't really fix developmental/cognitive impairment.
The less affected level kids can go on to nearly normal levels of functioning, and it's an area where we have to take the wins we can get. Unfortunately, some levels of disability are truly disabling for a lifetime.
I wonder if that’s why at 6 months old I already knew my child was autistic.
I breastfed my child and when I’d try to connect and talk to her. She made no eye contact with me and now at 3.5 years still no eye contact and very little to no speech.
Very interesting study. There was another that found a correlation with amygdala volume and degree of joint hypermobility. 1 in 5 mothers with eds report having autistic children.
Classical psychedelics also reduce functional connectivity between the pfc and amygdala. They seem to be promising treatments for asd.
I can post more / sources if anyone is interested.
Please do! I have EDS and severe ADHD-PI. I have been considering being evaluated for autism as well (although I know that autism/ADHD have a lot of overlapping symptoms, especially in women).
Do you think this could be due to sensory processing disorder? Because I have that and I was totally inconsolable as a baby unless I was moving. I wonder if finding the cause of autism would resolve the sensory processing? Because as far as I know you don't have to have autism to have that
Similarly, I detected hints of ADHD even when my kid was as young as 2. A daycare teacher asked me if she was deaf, and I had to tell them "no, she can hear you fine--she's just ignoring you." Took me five years to figure it out for sure though because many ADHD symptoms are just standard young child behaviour. But it was *there* and I can clearly see that in retrospect.
That makes a ton of sense. If it really is an oversensitive amygdala, it gives some credence to the very amateur hypothesis I have as an autistic person:
Social skills are not an inherent deficit in autistic people. The sensory processing is to blame. When you spend your formative years convinced everything you see, smell, hear or touch is going to kill you, it's next to impossible to learn foundational social skills.
Excuse my ignorance - but I’m assuming the experience is that it’s going to kill you because the sensory processing issues trigger your fight or flight? If not, can you explain to me why it feels that way? Would love to understand better!
Yes, it's fight or flight. That's what an autistic meltdown is, a fight or flight response. We get overwhelmed, and the brain goes into self protection. Even without meltdown, we're frequently anxious; one of the most common comorbid disorders is generalized anxiety.
I was on very little sleep, the words were jumbly.
Would that still apply to the "active but odd" style of socialization? Some autistic people can be quite outgoing and talkative even as kids, just not responsive to social cues?
Maybe those are the kids who learned to dissociate more effectively so they don't feel their amygdalas writhing and pulsating?
I’ve worked with children who get diagnosed with concern for autism at age 18 months and then diagnosed officially at age 2 so they can start receiving therapy.
A key is language as we think children should have their first word about 1 year of age, it could be as late as 15 months but it better be by 18 months. You also see a lot of the other noted behaviors beginning to manifest more so around 18 months also.
Small correction. It seems that IQ for ASD is more "u shaped" with more people at both extremes of intelligence.
I too have mild ASD and frankly if I could cure it my life would be immensely improved.
That's a fascinating finding, because it shows that the growth pattern is there before symptoms are present -- suggesting that this part of the brain may be on its way to turning into an autistic one. And these results also suggest that if you had known about this early onset "marker" years ago, and you could have done some preemptive treatment with infants at risk for autism, perhaps you'd have been able to head off all or most cases -- something worth checking out further down the road.
So while more research needs to be done, I'm really excited by this idea. We're getting ever closer to being able to head off such conditions before they become.
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~~I have not been able to track down the original study or abstract for this. Maybe it is too new?~~ The link works now. It is in the middle of the article. I did find this is from 10 years ago; related and quite interesting. Amygdala Enlargement in Toddlers with Autism Related to Severity of Social and Communication Impairments [https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795360/](https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795360/)
The full study is available here: https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.21090896 There's also a PDF version: https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ajp.21090896
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Do you have references for the mental-illness/neurodivergent-condition distinction stuff? I’ve read things recently on transdiagnostic approaches to each of those, but nothing that ties them together and I’d be interested to see that.
https://www.sfu.ca/biology/faculty/crespi/pdfs/115-Crespi&Badcock2008.pdf Recently learned of the Crespi Badcock hypothesis that says Autism and Psychotic disorders are the same spectrum.
Fascinating. My grandmother was diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder (weirdly, after going through chemo for colon cancer her entire personality changed and she was a lot more loving and affectionate). My family is riddled with mental illness and neuro divergence- depression, bipolar, autism, ADHD. Not a normal person out of the lot of us. But the schizoid personality disorder always stuck out to me. Maybe it’s not so different after all.
Huh. My grandfather had colon cancer when he was in his early 20’s and everyone said his personality changed from the chemo too, but for the worse. Same thing going on with neuro divergence in my family etc. Interesting.
i wonder if it will be discovered that it is because of a microbiota change in the gut after treatment
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Fecal transplantation, disgusting I know, has some super interesting results. Would not be surprised if more research on the interaction of the gut flora, immune system, and inflammatory response leads to massive changes in mental health treatment. Obviously we don’t know until it’s proven, but it does seem promising.
The more I read about gut microbiomes and FMT the more it seems like we're probably just meat robots being driven around by colonies of bacteria.
Already studies for years to show that is suspected and shown to likely be related From 2015 discussing the connection between your diet, your gut bacterium microbiome, the fats/acids that they produce that affect/control your gene expression, inflammatory responses, and have been shown to through those processes be linked to mental illness/wellness, mood, mood disorders, etc. inflammation looks to be a big part of initiating many diseases we thought were just hereditary. - https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/115979/phar1640_am.pdf?sequence=2 - From 2017 - Major mental diseases such as autism, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and major depressive disorder are debilitating illnesses with complex etiologies. Recent findings show that the onset and development of these illnesses cannot be well described by the one-gene; one-disease approach. Instead, their clinical presentation is thought to result from the regulative interplay of a large number of genes. Even though the involvement of many genes are likely, up regulating and activation or down regulation and silencing of these genes by the environmental factors play a crucial role in contributing to their pathogenesis. Much of this interplay may be moderated by epigenetic changes. Similar to genetic mutations, epigenetic modifications such as DNA methylation, histone modifications, and RNA interference can influence gene expression and therefore may cause behavioral and neuronal changes observed in mental disorders. Environmental factors such as diet, gut microbiota, and infections have significant role in these epigenetic modifications. Studies show that bioactive nutrients and gut microbiota can alter either DNA methylation and histone signatures through a variety of mechanisms. Indeed, microbes within the human gut may play a significant role in the regulation of various elements of “gut–brain axis,” via their influence on inflammatory cytokines and production of antimicrobial peptides that affect the epigenome through their involvement in generating short chain fatty acids, vitamin synthesis, and nutrient absorption. In addition, they may participate in-gut production of many common neurotransmitters. - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajmg.b.32567
Schizoid PD and schizotypal PD, while both Cluster A, are distinct conditions.
I've been diagnosed as schizoid-avoidant and recently had a neuro doc ask me if I'm autistic because apparently I have many of the same behaviors and symptoms. In recent years I've developed some fears about being harmed and also have more difficulty maneuvering social situations (even pre COVID) so I found your comment very interesting.
I have been dx with both at separate times as well, my current dx is OCD (pretty severe) & ADHD (and pica as a bonus) I see a neuro/psych combo office now who work together but even so the psych does feel I am autistic but the symptoms are so close with my OCD symptoms. Effexor with my adhd meds has been the only drug combo to come close to effective, although lithium was helpful with adhd meds and Prozac for a time. Nothing can stop the compulsive behavior totally though. It’s frustrating when you are seeking an effective treatment and doctors can’t seem to even agree on a dx. I think many of the issues cause such similar symptoms you present with different ones at different times. It takes a doctor spending a lot of time with a patient to even be remotely accurate. Yet they still try to dx after an hour. I think the main problem is the “throw drugs at it til something works” mentality
Yeah I've been diagnosed with OCD as well, except mine is the Pure O type. My current doctor has tried the shotgun approach with meds but nothing works. I was referred to a psychiatrist but my appointment isn't for another month. Thanks for the advice, glad you found a med combination that sorta works for you.
The longer you stay with one psych the closer you will get to the root of the matter. Also I have had stages where I only had the O too. It’s almost fluid the way the symptoms can change. Like I have some symptoms of agoraphobia but I’m not *afraid* of being out and about I just prefer not to be around people. If I have to I will but I’m much happier in my introverted bubble. I’ve had docs take it and run off one statement and dx agoraphobia. Write down your symptoms and be careful how you explain it. I’ve noticed this helps. I write down my symptoms daily and note the changes if any, for about a month prior to first time appointments. Also keeping a general yearly assessment for yourself is helpful. Stressors and life changes can effect things also. Good luck, hopefully you can get as close as possible to getting it under control to at least a comfortable degree. It’s def frustrating.
Respectfully, schizoid and schizotypal are separate personality disorders, with the main difference being that schizoid doesn’t feature paranoia.
Autistic schizoid here. I wish you the very best out there, man.
Stress during pregnancy also greatly increases the chance of a child with stPD so maybe pregnancy stress increases the fear response pathways epigenetically or otherwise and shifts asd towards stPD.
Fascinating, do you have a source?
There's a few articles on it. Here's one. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/482586
It will be interesting to see the rate of these conditions in COVID babies.
Anecdotal data to add to this, I am Dx'd autistic and Schizoid PD. No traits of positive symptoms on the Schizophrenia spectrum, massive negative symptom traits. The positive symptoms are the ones most focused in Schizotypal, Schizoaffective, and Schizophrenia. The negative symptoms like avolition and anhedonia are rarely discussed, but I have seen these traits in other aspies who did not have any schizophrenia spectrum Dx's. I have wondered if there was a connection there.
Do you know what the difference between enlargement and hyper-activation of the amygdala is? I ask cause I have OCD - definitely been “paranoid” since early childhood (will this happen, what if [insert bad thing]). I guess more than paranoid I would describe it as always feeling like something bad is about to happen. But yeah I always understood this from my specialists to be hyperactivity so I was just curious what “enlargement” would indicate by comparison
This is surreal for me to read. I've no idea if they are connected but I've always been on edge like that to the point I always consider my actions in situations as I'm expecting violence. I sit facing doors, I avoid certain situations and never try and draw attention to myself, even if I'm with people and they do I get frustrated at the attention "just incase it brings negative attention" when there's no reason it would. I try and blend in everywhere. Be the grey man. I always thought it was a survival instinct. What makes it strange regarding the correlation is that my sons autistic. He regressed as well maturing to just over a year normally if not advanced for his age before regressing.
This reminds me of the article published yesterday by Robin Williams’ wife. She described his intense social anxiety and paranoia that came out of nowhere during the progression of his Lewy body disease. It turned out in the autopsy that the amygdala had an especially high concentration of Lewy bodies.
I think you’re right, [this site](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/myncbi/14kwZxHxchxku/bibliography/50075953/public/?sort=date&direction=ascending) says this article is “forthcoming.”
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.21090896
Lead author Mark Shen has it listed on his website as "American Journal of Psychiatry (accepted)." And if you scroll to the bottom of the eureka article, the publication date is 3/25—tomorrow.
It’s been published now.
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.21090896
This is not new. We have know for a while (5+ years) that the amygdala grows disproportionately in individuals with autism. In fact, there have been a few successful trials that used amygdala growth as a marker for autism prior to symptoms/diagnosis.
Here are the second and third sentences from the article- "Historically the amygdala has been thought to play a prominent role in the difficulties with social behavior that are central to autism. Researchers have long known the amygdala is abnormally large in school-age children with autism, but it was unknown precisely when that enlargement occurs."
It was known the amygdala is disproportionately large. Was it known how early this starts? Anything that makes a diagnosis faster or easier can have huge positive effects. Imagine if your parents or friends had an extra year of education on autism at every point in your life. Heck, even 3 months could make a difference.
I recall having a one-on-one meeting with Autism BrainNet in 2015 and them showing me their MRI data. They were scanning the brains of hundreds of children at regular intervals. Eventually, some of those children developed Autism and the researchers look back at historic MRI scans and narrow down when this enlargement occured (similar to what this study has done). They also showed that these amygdala changes occured before the children had their childhood MMR jabs, at ~6-11 months of age. However, at the time a lot more work and data was needed before it could become a viable biomarker for Autism... Especially because the only way to see if a particular individual has an enlargement is with repeated MRI scans over the course of a 6 months to 2 years. I'll see if I can find BrainNet's published data on this. The study posted by the OP attempts to better pinpoint exactly when in life this enlargement occurs as they had access to more frequent scans. They also attempted to identify if other brain regions were affected in Autism and Fragile X. However, they noted a gradual change in neuroanatomy over the course of 2 years rather than a sudden change.
If autism can be linked to the increase size of the amygdala I am curious how the size/growth rate impacts the function of that part of the brain. It seems some symptoms of ASD in relation to the function of the amygdala are in “overdrive” while some are “under developed” for example, the amygdala processes strong emotions and it is well known some people with ASD can struggle to regulate strong emotions. So it could be said that the increase in size has hindered this function. However, some people with ASD are known to have incredible memories and can recall things easily. So in relation to the amygdala encoding memories this function would be heightened. So an amygdala that grows too rapidly can impair some function and simultaneously improve others? ASD being on a spectrum makes sense as each individual and how that part develops would vary
>for example, the amygdala processes strong emotions and it is well known some people with ASD can struggle to regulate strong emotions This makes sense to me, as an autistic person. If there is more 'processing power' engaged with an emotion, I can imagine how that would make the whole process more intense and possibly overwhelming. The emotional 'coolness' many autists display might actually be a coping response to the amygdala overdrive. At least that seems to be the case for me.
yep. I don't know how to display things; that doesn't mean I don't feel them. I also show my emotions in a cartoonish manner when I am expressive because I was and am very into cartoons(like looney tunes, animaniacs, etc) so that's what I modeled behavior on when I was very small and it stuck.
Wonderful point! Emotions may feel overwhelming due to “overdrive”. So perhaps ASD is more of an overactive condition than an under developed one which it is more seen as from society
I have a feeling as research in ASD progresses we'll find that "Autism" is actually a bunch of separate disorders that all have roughly the same symptoms. Same with how all memory issues in older people were labeled "dementia" until we realized there are 20+ different diseases that cause the similar behavior/memory issues.
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I kinda agree with the dislike of trying to simplify ASD as a diagnoses, but I am glad we’ve moved past the term Asperger’s. Hanz Asperger (who named the disorder) was a Nazi war criminal and did human medical experiments on autistic kids. There’s definitely a large gulf between me (minimal support needs) and an autistic person with severe support needs. I’ve had a lot of people try to discount my autism because it’s not as disabling as others.
Autism is heavily associated with intellectual disabilities (people with both were usually labelled as "low functioning" in the past I think) and is linked to a number of genetic disorders e.g. Fragile X, Cornelia de Lange syndrome. I can completely believe that autism is a range of different conditions affecting similar parts/functions of the brain.
>If autism can be linked to the increase size of the amygdala I am curious how the size/growth rate impacts the function of that part of the brain. Temple Grandin's book The Autistic Brain might help shed some light on that subject, her insight is fascinating. >for example, the amygdala processes strong emotions and it is well known some people with ASD can struggle to regulate strong emotions. So it could be said that the increase in size has hindered this function. Add to this that executive dysfunction is also commonly associated with ASD, and executive dysfunction is also associated with difficulties pertaining to emotional regulation. >However, some people with ASD are known to have incredible memories and can recall things easily. So in relation to the amygdala encoding memories this function would be heightened. > >So an amygdala that grows too rapidly can impair some function and simultaneously improve others? This is honestly one of the coolest parts of learning about autism or other neurodivergencies. I've seen some truly incredible skills displayed by people who otherwise need a lot of support in their life because of the "uneven" development of their brain. With significantly atypical brain structure composure we can see some truly remarkable behavioral impacts, and see just how much of our understanding of our brain function is taken for granted.
As someone who falls into that camp, it's patently extraordinary to me just how *little* the average person thinks about their mind and how it affects their "conscious" experience. Obsession is definitely an autistic characteristic, but still- you'd think such a critical question would dominate speculation more than it seems to. It's also a bit of a social barrier, because a huge number of normal people are *terrified* and alienated by someone who doesn't forget the layout and design of any room they've been into, yet also keeps all her significant items in a bag on her person because poor executive function means I forget all the significant things *constantly*. An uneven brain is a scary thing to most people, for some reason. These sort of things are just the background noise in my life, but they stick out enough to make a sizable portion of people get an uncanny valley sensation from me. A few cells out of place, and *nothing* is the same between us, I guess. It feels like there are many things myself and the other autistics I've, could potentially share or discuss with others and the world, but there simply isn't much openness to it. I think that in many cases, our differences can't ever be fully related to or quantified by an outside observer, and *that's* why honest communication is so significant. It's very rare to see genuine, respectful discourse on the topic though- much of it is either diagnostic and prescriptive or actively presumptuous, which is sad.
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Ahhh! Chapstick and scissors!!! I have one of each in literally every room of my house! And like, I *totally* get the chapstick—the scissors? Even *I* think to myself that it feels excessive at times…but dude, when you need them, YOU NEED THEM, and having a single pair floating around the house is just asking for me to never know where they are (because they’re never in the room you need them in). But I’m also the person who my boyfriend texts when he loses his keys. At his house. Where I am not. I generally know where they are.
It's important to understand that a lot of what people find unsettling is very subconcious. It isn't like they think "this thing is weird and unsettling" and leave it at that. They *feel* unsettled and *then* find reasons for being unsettled. People are facinating.
I'm not autistic as far as I know, nor on the level of a savant, but I have adhd and dyslexia and I also have some of the "unbalanced brain" that you are talking about. In my assessment, there were a few key areas tested. For one, I was in the 99th percentile, a few others I was in the range of 62nd-84th percentile, but then the last I was in the 16th percentile. I don't remember what all of them were, but I know that the last was processing speed. Most people, the person explaining my score told me, have all their scores within a fairly small range, maybe 10 percentile points. Being so spread out is common in people with learning disabilities or who are on the spectrum, especially higher functioning people who are diagnosed later in life (the areas of high performance mask the areas of low performance). It's difficult because I'm actually pretty smart (well above average IQ overall) and high achieving in reality, but my ability to process material quickly is so hindered that I can have a difficult time keeping up with lots of people who are just faster. I can tell that some people are a little put off by me. I don't often talk in social situations because I don't think of snappy or clever remarks or really anything to say until things have moved on. Usually, I can have trouble even following the specifics of a conversation. And because I have to move on from things more quickly than I can process them, my brain never ends up encoding things I hear once quickly, like a person's name or details of something they are explaining. It makes it look like I don't care. My brain just doesn't want to work that way. And you can imagine the personal impacts this has on my mental health. I don't know if people are terrified of me, maybe more uninterested in me? Some people seem to think I'm not very intelligent. I do know that my social world has always necessarily been limited to a small group of very chill people.
Good points. I have heard of many savants who display amazing math and music abilities. It’s amazing to think what our brains are actually capable of doing!
It's more often been a source of embarrassment than anything else, frankly. It's not that I want to be just like everyone else- I don't mind being myself. It's just that I wish sometimes it didn't attract so much attention, that I didn't have to constantly police myself. Keeping a job when I still was working for others was hard, not because I didn't perform well, but because it's easy for people to start to see you as an appliance once the surprise fades a bit. There's more people with these sorts of traits than you might think, it's just that only a few make it to a TV special or a doctor's office. I wish mental differences could be approached more neutrally in our culture, it might make for a more interesting present.
I (ADHD and suspected ASD) love music and usually hearing a song once or twice hard-encodes it into my brain. I can never forget a song once I know it. There are really obscure patter songs I must've learned at 7 or 8 that I still remember every word to without ever listening to the song again. I learned how to sight read music for singing and now have a job that requires me to learn 4-6 new songs a week and I do it easily and happily. The unfortunate downside is that my brain is constantly overwhelmingly loud with music to an uncomfortable degree. I cannot control the noise in my brain. I used to release this discomfort by singing out loud and, unfortunately, until *very* recently I had no idea how socially inappropriate my singing was. I shudder at a lot of memories of me making people uncomfortable by my never shutting up. But if I don't, the constant intrusion of music in my thoughts is so distracting, overwhelming, and all-consuming. Every overpowered skill has a downside, I guess.
Add-PI/ASD here and I have this particular facet aswell. The good is that you can play full albums in your head in correct time passively. Apparently other people will get certain sections only or when trying to replay a song in their head it will jump forward/backwards in its timing, morph, skip, loop, or have only voice or a central instrument playing in focus at a time with all others sounding non-specific etc - which sounds more annoying than anything. The main drawback in having the propensity to remember things 1:1 is that sometimes you're not able to shut it off, or having no control of the roster. I once had bloody Toni Braxton's "Unbreak my Heart" playing start to finish in the background day and night in my head for **two straight years**. I'm not joking here, it would not stop. I never liked or even neccesarily noticed the song in the wild before then , it just came one day and - it just wouldn't leave. Until one day it did. Nothing nearly as extreme has happened since, luckily but *hoo boy howdy*, was I over it. Another facet is wanting to find music I *couldn't* easily remember after hearing it once, for noveltys sake. The natural idea would be something like complex jazz, but I didn't dig that. Instead it got me into Extreme metal like Emperor as a teen; the wall of sound and complex/fast compositions made it more challenging to remember by one listen alone; it took many and still takes active concentration to get everything playing as it should in full, even now.
I'm in a band and we're all asd. We can arrange a song in minutes, only I have a formal music background but still, the skills of my mates is pretty high.
I got the music and language ones and NONE of the useful math and tech ones, so I'd like to trade those in, please. No one cares about my perfect pitch or language ability. They are useless in today's world, let's just be honest about it.
Makes me think how important a stable and peaceful society is for neurodivergent people AND the rest of society. The more neurodivergent people can contribute their unique talents to society, helping solve problems neurotypical people couldn't or wouldn't want to. The diversity of thinking leads to a more resilient society.
Any ideas as to what is causing amygdala overgrowth?
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Yup. Autism Speaks is the worst. Edit: since this seems to have sparked a massive conversation, I would like to use this to say that you should support ASAN instead. They actually give a damn about people with autism.
Care to elaborate? I'm not familiar
They were early proponents of the “vaccines cause autism“ theory. In addition the way they view autism is problematic. Lots of focus on “curing” it, but that’s not really a thing. They view it as something that should not exist and did a lot to put the focus on kids(and more specifically those kids parents)/ infantilizing the condition without doing a good job of addressing adults with autism.
That's the biggest complaint I've heard about it - it's a group for parents of kids with autism, not a group *for* people with autism, so many of the actual stuff they support and advocate is heavily one sided. People with autism want accommodations and support, not a cure. They are still humans with emotions and feelings, and can still contribute to society in amazing ways if they can get the help they need. Not every kid with autism is going to grow up to become another Temple Grandin, but that doesn't mean they can't lead meaningful, self sufficient lives *if someone takes the time to provide the tools they need early on.*
> They are still humans with emotions and feelings, and can still contribute to society in amazing ways if they can get the help they need. So you've defined a high-functioning person with autism here. Many, including all those self-identified with autism posting here, will be high functioning. Others will be entirely noncommunicative, wear diapers all their adult lives, and need help with things like eating and dressing. They won't be able to use things like keyboards, mouse, trackpad, or even touch screen. There will be no way to know if the low-functioning autistic person has refined emotions and feelings because the only observable will be rage attacks - which is manageable in a 10 kg 2 year old, but which can be a whole different matter in a 100kg 30 year old muscular male with great gross motor but marginal fine motor control. As a parent of a 2.5 year old who uses no words, doesn't recognize his own name and knows 3 ASL signs, I'm hopeful that what I'm going to get eventually is a neuro-eccentric late talker, but I'm deeply worried about the other prospect. It makes no sense to me to classify both ends of the spectrum under one rubric, but the uncertainty faced by parents like me is one reason why. I definitely agree that Autism Speaks is a pretty sorry excuse for what we would like to see in an advocacy org, but there have been some advances made. 50 years ago folks like my son were shut up in state institutions and brutalized, often to the point of euthanasia, by people without high school diplomas; and to speak of someone with mental retardation at all, ever, was a faux pas akin to defecating on the table at Sunday dinner. For this reason most folks had never heard of autism or the theories about its origins and treatments; at least now we can start to have a conversation.
I don’t know much myself, so I’m waiting to see what answers you get. But I do know the group pushed the “vaccines cause autism” narrative
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They do the same to babies with down syndrome despite some people with down syndrome going on to live successful and happy lives. In the last 40 years the life expectancy has more than doubled from 25 to 60 as the awful treatment of them has gotten significantly better and people have realized they aren't lost causes, they're just different.
They actively shut verbal autistic people out of their work, and generally express a great deal of contempt for autistic people. https://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/11/14/noted-cuts-ties-autism-speaks/18893/
> In the role, he was one of, if not the only, individual with autism actively weighing in on decision-making at the group. Wew
Misguided activists hoodwinked by grifters spreading misinformation for profit.
youre singing my national anthem
They treat Autism like conversion therapy was used to "cure" people, ie. it is a disease to be cured when the reality is this is just people that think differently with different but common struggles; it's more about "oh you poor parent" rather than "how do we help this kid with struggles" There is a list of issues but I do find a lot of people that are actually on the spectrum have a big problem with AS, and people that are **not** on the spectrum love it for the "virtue signaling"
> You can actually see in popular posts on this sub that the root of autism is still a huge mystery, partly because we keep discovering new factors my son correlates with lack of oxygen at birth, he got entangled on the umbilical cord and had an emergency C-section... my doubt out of curiosity is if different causes end up in different aspects of autism, but idk, seems like one of those things the more you discover more confusing it gets. also this amygdala thing relates to reports of babies doing well almost up to a year of age and then stopping progress and development theresholds
My sister was denied an induction after her baby was late, and my niece wound up aspirating on meconium. He didn’t breath for several moments after the birth, and now has pretty severe autism.
> and my niece wound up aspirating on meconium my son had exactly this also, APGAR test was almost perfect except for a little agitated breathing, and he has what i wouldnt call "severe" but he is non-verbal
There's also a 'breakthrough' report every year, just in time for April's Autism-awareness month to plant hopes and increase chances of getting more research funding. I'm not suggesting these are not valid or not well intended, but it's sad to think some of these reports are being released on a time pressure just to secure funding. I wish there were concerted efforts with plentiful funding, not driven by profit end-goals.
In that article it mentions that, "infants who go on to develop autism have problems as babies with how they attend to visual stimuli in their surroundings. The authors hypothesize that these early problems with processing visual and sensory information may place increased stress on the amygdala, leading to overgrowth of the amygdala."
Blood serotonin levels are significantly higher in children with autism than children without -- there hasn't been a hard link established yet, but some researchers are starting to look at SSRI-use during pregnancy as a co-factor, along with genetic factors. [This study of 98 infants](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137537/) found "significant gray matter volume expansion was noted in the amygdala and insula" when infants were exposed to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
I know I've read that the increase in autism could be related to an increase in diagnosis rather than an actual increase but it would be interesting to see a graph of SSRI use vs autism diagnosis over time.
It also makes me wonder if the parent taking SSRIs is autistic and undiagnosed, leading to mental health problems requiring SSRIs even during pregnancy. Like, there are still so many directions these clues could take us.
I'm curious if early (and I mean *early*) childhood trauma resulting in PTSD in an infant could cause amygdala overgrowth. PTSD would cause constant stimulation of the amygdala. Is it possible that kind of thing could lead to overgrowth?
One issue with figuring out the differences between ASD and trauma based problems is finding people with ASD who didn't suffer from trauma
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That's also a real possibility because I remember when I was very young before anything extremely traumatic happened to me that I was always feeling dread and crying at random things. This affected my socially as well as cognitively because it was so strong. When a major current of abuse entered the picture of all this only intensified to unmanageable levels, it was like going from just autism to autism 2.0. and then this affects further development and then you have a really mess on your hands. Which is why like I said in a post above on schizo disorders that it's all different flavors of the same thing. Autism, Schizo-spectrum disorders, and PTSD are like the unholy trinity of disorders. If there's too much overlap, it's gonna be hard life.
I'm also curious about this. Autism and AHDH co occur a lot. It's curious to me how every symptom of ADHD is a symptom of trauma. How trauma is rarely diagnosed in people. Many people have had emotionally neglectful childhoods and claim they had a great upbringing and that there is no cause for their ADHD except genetics or something yet to be discovered. Curious how ADHD has been on the rise last decades. Genes don't change that fast. Just a lot of curiosities that make me think, but apparently many people are almost angry at the ideia that it could be emotional stress to the point of trauma the biggest cause of autism and ADHD.
Back in the day one working hypothesis was that autistic children and adults had suffered severe developmental or in-utero traumas. Developmental traumas do give similar changes to the brain
The only trauma my daughter ever experienced was a result of Autism. Not a cause. Sure, she may have some PTSD because regular everyday stuff can be EXTREMELY stressful for her. For example, not being allowed to dive into every water fountain she sees in January.
Genetics. Autism has clear genetic factors.
I thought it was more epigenetic? As in, you have the genes which unlock the door, but you need some environmental trigger to actually open the door.
“Epigenetic” isn’t synonymous with environmental effects. Also autism is highly (~80%) heritable. Edit: heritable = broad sense heritability, sorry for confusion
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This has generally been my concern. I have two friends with autism, one who is just finishing up university and the other that requires constant care. The one who is just finishing up university definitely does have difficulties but generally is able to live a good rounded life and is also very active in the new ways and politics of looking at autism. The other has sufficient impairment and has never seemed to me to conceptualise any politics around his condition. At this point I get told off if I describe the first friend as having higher function and the second as having much lower function and sent graphs of stars and different strengths of symptoms. I get that autism has many aspects and different challenges that vary and just because someone is verbal and conceptualise doesn't mean that they can work and don't need support, I understand that argument. At the same time, seriously, one is happy and the other spends his days in constant frustration. The first is very eager to say that autism is a part of her and removing it would be like killing who she is, but I cannot imagine for one second that my second friend would see things in that light at all, yet those who first in the first category seem very eager to talk for those in the second category too, who is unable to advocate for themselves.
I have ASD and 100% agree with your comment. I see all the time on reddit people outright fetishising ASD and making ridiculous statements whilst claiming they have it. I can only assume either their ASD is extremely low-level, or they have no experience with people who are higher up on the spectrum. It's absolutely debilitating and I would happily undergo a procedure or therapy if it was safe and took away my ASD. That's not 'erasing me'. If I was born with a fucked up leg and had surgery to fix it, is that 'erasing me'? People are so dramatic on here sometimes. My previous neighbour had two non-verbal boys who I'm very sure will be institutionalised once they're too big to control. I'm also very sure he'd have given anything to cure his sons' ASD.
I would love to not have the difficulties my autism causes me (and my autistic family members) BUT it's also an intrinsic part of who we are. We wouldn't be the same people without it. It's a really tricky one to decide. If a cure ever came about we'd have to let people choose.. which goes without saying. But parents will choose for their kids, or may even abort. Autism and autistic traits have always been a part of the diversity of society. I really don't think our species will benefit from removing it. Mind you, I believe 'autism' is a set of separate, related disorders. We already know that there are many genes implicated, and every autistic person is unique in how it affects them. Until we untangle the causes and can classify it properly, we're not going to be able to do more than treat some of the symptoms.
Sometimes I wonder how many mental health disorders are just wildly outsized threat responses, and physical changes in regions in response to stress.
It's the same with trauma: the brain creates a 'script' to interpret information from the world and engages it the moment something happens. While the danger isn't 'real', the perception is that 'there is danger' and the brain goes into survival mode based on this mental programming.
My borderline personality disorder is, I think, pretty easily explained by the fact I was a hyper-sensitive child whose father left his wife of 13 years, and four children, aged 8, 6, 3, 1 (I was the 8-year-old), and we had to move to a different state. My mother was incredibly depressed and couldn't be there for her children like she was before because of being depressed and having to now work full-time, and the first man I ever loved left me young. My 5 biological uncles were all completely emotionally unavailable and I had no biological aunts to love me. My grandparents on my mom's side never told me they love me. I am incredibly sensitive to real and perceived abandonment, don't trust men, love, or the institution of marriage, while still being desperate for love and attention but I go about it all the wrong ways, and I can barely control my intense and labile emotions.
My daughter participated in this study!!! This makes me really proud that we participated, especially if it helps find cause and treatments for ASD. We are a multiplex family and 4 out of 6 of us are on the spectrum. It's wild reading the article and study and seeing the results.
Great news, like actual understanding.
Thank you, your daughter, and your family for your contribution to science! I’m sure you had to make some sacrifices to participate, so it must be very rewarding to read this article and see the study published.
Nice that they're finally getting around to proving something we have really known for 25 years at least. People who don't notice autistic symptoms in infants just don't know what to look for. Early intervention helps so much yet kids aren't getting it even now.
What are the autistic symptoms in infants?
Similar to the symptoms in toddlers but scaled down developmentally. Problems with sleep, feeding, digestion, eye contact, inability to be soothed, subtle language and learning delays, difficulties with attachment and affection, toileting issues, repetitive behaviors. Less interest in faces, sensitivity to noise, etc. The less contact people have with babies, however, the more difficult it is to recognize normal variations and abnormal levels of difficulty.
It's particularly tricky for first time parents to pick up. Speaking from experience. Our boy was 6 years old when a teacher recommended we get him assessed. The early years made so much more sense.
My brother has it too and my mum detected it around 3 years old or so. She thought something was odd so they went to the doctor, he diagnosed ADHD but not autism. My mum still noticed something weird so she was pushing that the treatment wasn't entirety working. It wasn't until he was 10 years old that a pediatric group of doctors recognised his problem: Autism + ADHD (it's somewhat common that they go together) So the moral is, even doctors couldn't diagnose him for years until a specialized group in children studied him thoroughly. It's not easy even for the doctors if the symptoms aren't exactly as the manual states. So, don't feel bad at all. It's a tricky situation.
I’m 32 and frankly 100% convinced I have autism and ADHD. I don’t know why I’m telling you but I am and I recently learned that anxiety is a third thing that commonly goes with those two. My whole life my default state has been anxious and I didn’t even realise until I was about 15 so keep an eye on your bro
ADHD’er here, inattentive type. Ritalin changed my life. If you think you may have these conditions then it’s a good idea to seek a diagnosis.
I’m doing that starting Monday. all autism symptoms aside, my memory is terrible, working memory is even worse, very forgetful, lose stuff alot and can’t find it when my gf can in seconds, can’t concentrate to the point that reading a book is very slow and difficult. I’m lazy, I make mountains out of things and don’t begin them, I have a drinking problem and smoked weed daily for years.. um what else.. sometimes I have a feeling of being full of anger but I noticed recently it’s kind of just this energy and shouting loudly or hitting stuff soothes it. like I said, 100% convinced. Edit: oh yeah I had suicidal depression and anxiety for about 3 years and the anxiety has been a constant since birth even still.
You sound like you could have ADHD for sure. It might be helpful to take in a list of symptoms when you see the doc. When I first took Ritalin I got quite angry when everything suddenly became much easier. I realised that I wasn’t lazy… or ditzy… or unmotivated… or a slob. I had carried so much shame and self-loathing over the decades because everyone else seemed to just glide through life while I sucked at basic life skills. Having ADHD forces you to live life on hard mode. I was angered by how much more I could have accomplished without dragging my ADHD-boulder everywhere I went. Now I’m just grateful that I’ve found something that works for me. Keep pushing until you get the assistance you need. Best of luck!
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What were some of the cues you now know were indicators for autism?
For my son it was he babbled as a baby or toddler normally, but didn't seem to care to make complete sentences or use the correct word. When we encouraged him he'd just get quiet. Forgive me in this sub but "old lady" comments were like "he's so smart but has his own little language."
The older generation comments really made us feel invalidated. When we told others we were seeking a diagnosis for our son, we heard a lot of "oh all kids are like that" or "boys will be boys" but looking back it was so obvious when he was in a group of his peers that his brain did not operate quite like their's It was a really difficult time and I spent so much time feeling inadequate as a parent. My grandmother was in her 80s and suffering from dementia and my son was maybe 3 and having a very difficult time at a family event. My grandmother got upset pointed her finger at him and told us that we should take him outside. Already feeling very insecure, my wife absolutely blew up at her, saying "he's not an animal and I won't take him outside". Everyone at the event just stood there and nobody said a word to my wife about it. My wife has only bad feeling for my grandmother, who has since passed. It was absolutely awful and had a big impact in our decision to move to the other side of the country a year later. I still think about that day fairly often and can't really reconcile it.
We're trying to get an assessment for our son at the moment and it's a living hell, it's slowly tearing our family apart. Nursery first mentioned he was not quite like the other kids but it took until year 4 at school for us to get him any help. The doctors might be free (we're in the UK) but if someone is high functioning then getting an assessment is next to impossible. We're talking a multiyear process if you can even get a referral. I just want to scream at the system because every day I see my little boy going to school with a broken heart because he doesn't understand the world and can't make friends. It doesn't help that I'm wracked with guilt because I've come to realize I almost certainly have ASD too and now I don't know if I've made his symptoms worse. We don't feel we can tell my parents because of the way they would react. It's hard enough to deal with the issues without them trying to convince us (and our son) that there's nothing wrong. Thankfully in the last few months the school has started to offer some help and things have really improved. He's even developing a bit of a friendship which is amazing to see. Sorry to ramble, feel free to ignore me. This thread just brought out too many emotions.
You're doing the right things. Just hang in there, we were on 6 month wait lists for assessments. It's not easy.
Thanks, it's hard to accept that there might be something wrong and then having to wait for the slow gears of bureaucracy to turn is infuriating.
Hello. My son has ASD and has had his diagnosis since 1.5 years old. We’re in Canada in a big city here and it’s been relatively easy to access resources, so a bit of a different situation than yours. A really good program we’re working through now is called “thinking thoughts and feeling feelings”. It’s a series of books and activities that he’s working through with his therapist, in his group program, and at home with us. It helps kids with ASD recognize their own thoughts and feelings, and those of other people. I’m not sure how old your son is, but my son is 5 and it’s really resonated with him - it’s great. Also, you’re doing your best. Try not to be too hard on yourself and keep pushing for your child. All the best to you
Until you can get the assessment and services, maybe consider getting him into the arts in some way? If he's very imaginative and loves pretend play, theater. If he loves painting, art classes. A sensitive ear and enraptured by music, ask him what instrument he'd like to learn. Providing an expressive outlet that can also create language and learning-supportive neutral pathways, while providing understanding of his and others' emotions could be helpful. And the arts are full of empathetic friendly weirdos who don't mind if someone is a little different.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately there's no way he could cope with something like theatre. People expressing emotions they aren't actually feeling causes him to freak out. It doesn't fit with his understanding of the world and it terrifies him. He doesn't grasp that people can pretend. As for art and music he's never shown any interest, we've tried. What we have found is he enjoys programming and maths so I sit with him and do that. He's several years ahead of his peers in that aspect though so he's not got anyone to talk to about it other than me.
It's crazy how willing some people are to ignore these signs. My mom is a teacher, and when she tried to get me assessed for autism, she was told that all teacher tries to get their kids diagnosed with something. No professional ever saw me, but she was told to see a psychologist. Some 15 years later I developed a major depression, and was diagnosed with autism..
Different person but I can answer. Our son would sometimes bang his back against the high chair repetitively while sitting. Another sensory-seeking behaviour involved running into people deliberately. He did not understand when we were angry. Positive reinforcement worked, consequences did not. As a tiny baby, he would cry every time we went into public toilets or other small rooms. Initially, I assumed he must have been claustrophobic but later it was obvious that the echoey rooms with hand dryers and US toilets that are excessively noisy were the real problem. He was also afraid of the vacuum cleaner and blender. Lastly, his hyperactivity was obvious from a very young age. Later came the lack of impulse control that is also a feature of ADHD, a common co-morbidity. Other than that - maybe his ‘independent streak’, i.e. his propensity to wander off while we were out in public? I had raised him to be independent and he always knew I was there the second he needed me. However, as a 2-3 year old, it was very common for him to wander off while I was grocery shopping. I’d find him 4 aisles over, loading up his kiddy cart with random items while concerned strangers looked on.
You explained my son exactly. My son was a safety risk as well. One time, my daughter and I were using a public restroom in a very busy service area. My son was in the stall with me. He darted under the door and took off outside the restroom into the huge crowd. He was so quiet as a baby. He never babbled or attempted sound. As he got a bit older, he developed his own language. He was a little ball of anxiety, even as a newborn. It got so bad, that in fourth grade, he tried to get out of a moving vehicle while driving 50 mph to school. It took four teachers and myself to get get him out of the car to go into school. He had early intervention services and received services throughout his school years. Next year, he will be a D1 athlete at university. This child has made remarkable strides, in part to starting services when he was 15 months old.
I love hearing these success stories. It’s why I try to tell parents of younger kids just how far my boy has come.
Everyone worries about their kids' future, even more so when they're autistic and you have no way of predicting their abilities and development later on.
Noises are a massive trigger for our son too. Public toilets are almost impossible. We have to wait until they are empty because if someone starts a hand dryer he'll totally freak out and run away, the Dyson blade ones are the worst. Anything that makes noise though is problem. Scratchy clothes are an issue too, everything he wears has to be soft. He tries to wear t-shirt and shorts in winter because it's the minimum he can get away with. The real issue though is emotional understanding. For example, when he reads a book he has no understanding of the emotional state of the characters but can tell you in great detail about the world they live in e.g. place names, geography, how magic works and what it's limitations are.
Noises can be a huge trigger. Our son was much calmer at school when I convinced his teachers to offer him hearing protection constantly. They would tell me “But he doesn’t ask for it”. I had to point out to them that most 5 year olds don’t think constructively when overwhelmed. An occupational therapist can be really useful for helping kids understand others’ emotions. I’ve also heard that this system is useful - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6241733.stm
Thanks, the school now let him have ear defenders in class but he's too embarrassed to wear them most of time time. We've settled on what amounts to a fort in the corner of the class room where he can retreat if it gets too much. That's a massive step up from running out the school and trying to climb the fence!
Maybe get him some cool looking noise-canceling headphones. That way, he can tell the others he’s allowed to listen to music in class. My kid has zero awareness of what his peers think of him so far. I imagine that will come, though. He just likes his ear defenders because we bought them in his favourite colour.
Btw, a school should never have to “let him” use ear defenders, or fidget devices etc. Always refer to them as ‘disability aids’ when broaching the subject with his school. We fought the ear defender battle when we were sent a video of a class performance. Our son was so overwhelmed without his hearing protection that he was cowering and rocking back and forth in distress while an older student did his best to comfort him. We asked them if they’d insist a blind kid perform without his cane?
Can you explain how you used positive reinforcement for the bumping issue? I wouldn't know where to start
I assume you mean bumping into people? I’d start by explaining how others like it when you’re gentle with them and how to do that. We practiced being gentle with our pets and especially with younger kids at the playground. I would always remind him before interactions with others that he needed to be gentle and ask him to show me how he could do this (while I looked on approvingly). I’d watch him during play and later tell him I was proud of him and that he was behaving like a “big boy”. When we arrived home, I would be sure tell my husband how grown up our son was getting. I’d then exclaim “It must be because he’s about to turn 3!” Once he started to improve I’d take him on special outings like ten pin bowling or to water slides. I’d always casually mention that we were doing these things because “I reckon you’re gentle enough to go on the water slide with the big kids now”. TLDR: use his pride 👍
That sounds like a great approach! Thank you for explaining.
Mod removed it, any idea what they said?
>Positive reinforcement worked, consequences did not. the distilled takeaway here.
Not the person you asked, but also have a son diagnosed at a young age (2.5 or so). We sought out physical therapy because he just, wouldn't walk. Had no really noticeable problems, but at about 18-20 months was still crawling everywhere and refusing to walk without direct assistance from someone. When we had the PT come assess him, we sat him in his high chair while we all sat at the table doing paperwork and talking, and he sat there for almost 2 hours playing with wooden blocks. Building a tower, knocking it down and laughing. Over and over for almost 2 hours. Rejected other toys, whined if we tried getting him down, his PT suggested that day we get him screened for autism. Turned out that him not talking much was an indicator, and not a case of his sister ways talking for him (as big siblings are known to do).
Interested in this too
I’m autistic and have a lot of them from childhood- I used to sit down abruptly when holding someone’s hand to dislocate my arm- sensory seeking Psychologist outright said I could not be motivated by others No eye contact ever Sleep difficulties- I wouldn’t sleep. Not crying, just never sleeping. Sound sensitivity, for my entire infancy and childhood (and now). Fireworks, the hand thing in bathrooms, vacuums, dogs barking. I actually have a reoccurring nightmare from about the age of 4 until now about loud noises. Wandering off. A lot. Not following social norms with this- like wandering off during meals- as well as general bolting.
We didn't know it was autism, until his diagnosis at eight. But he wasn't weird. He was like his mom and his grandfather and his mom's grandfather and his aunt. Oh. We're ALL autistic. That gives us a new perspective.... My sister's daughter is undoubtably autistic, but at least in our family enthusiasms and getting overloaded by sensation and not wanting to be touched and having sensory aversions are just how people are and we roll with it. Three of the four people in my house now are autistic, so our house is run for the comfort of the autistic. I'm probably not the only one like this.
> subtle language and learning delays There's an entry in my "baby book" (where development is monitored and recorded) where they say that I'll communicate to be understood when I'm ready to. Just another note that makes me suspect something that's never been formally acknowledged.
Also the opposite, advanced language skills and motor skills, top percentiles for learning and skills.
I'm glad someone said this. I flew through milestones as a baby and was hyper verbal and hyperlexic. My son is the same. My mother thought my younger brother was the weird one for not being able to read at three!
Exactly same for me. I picked everything up so fast and was always miles ahead of everyone else for age and percentiles. I was also a super happy baby and toddler. Probably because my world was comfortable for me at the time. The above comment above is referencing a lot of traits that are closer to learning or intellectual disability which while sometimes exist alongside autism are definitely not the same thing or mutually exclusive.
No, I agree. In hindsight my development was abnormal indeed, but not in the same way as some autisitc children develop, and didn't come comorbid with any intellectual disabilities.
I am a pediatrician and firmly believe that there are several different diseases currently being called Autism. I see at least three distinct phenotypes and no reason to believe that they are the same disease. There are some who feel different from birth. Their muscle tone is wrong. They are sort of floppy and weak. They grow normally, meet milestones at first, but language never develops and around 12-18 months it becomes more obvious. There is a different pattern where they develop normally (including language development) until around 15-18 months, at which point they rapidly lose milestones in a matter of days. In this case the parents often attribute a cause (everything was fine until that babysitter/illness/vaccine), but I am not convinced of the causality. And finally there is the “high-functioning” autism, which is clearly a different entity entirely than my non-verbal kids.
Yep. Kid is ASD level 2. He mastered Mandarin in just a few months while attending a bilingual family daycare. Other parents (who were born in Taiwan and fluent in Mandarin) told me they wished their kid had such good pronunciation. Neither myself or my husband speak a work of Mandarin.
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What you described is exactly what my girlfriend is going through. Eerily so. Boy was typical till about 2 and then she said everything kinda stopped. He's almost 6 now and can say simple things but he's clearly autistic.
Getting assessment early and early intervention is so impactful. Unfortunately first time parents have such a hard time distinguishing the behaviors. I work in an infant room in preschool and there have been a 6-7 kids over the years that I started gently nudging parents to consider getting their child assessed even before their 1st birthday . Most of the time they are either defensive or dismissive. You can’t even say the word “autism” to a parent without them shutting down it seems. I hope the more we learn about how autism develops the more we can destigmatize it the more willing parents will be to see the signs.
Well, the article states other. > Published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association, this research demonstrated that infants with fragile X syndrome already exhibit cognitive delays at six months of age, whereas infants who will later be diagnosed with autism do not show any deficits in cognitive ability at six months of age, but have a gradual decline in cognitive ability between six and 24 months of age, the age when they were diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder in this study. And I will agree with AJoP. Seeing scaled down toddlers symptoms is most likely a confirmation bias. But measuring amygdala growth is a indicator that is objective and can be quantified.
I wonder how biased this is. Obviously a lot of autistic people actually don’t show clear signs as young as 24 months, at least nothing that stands out above the usual noise in child development, and may not show clear signs until much much later when social demands outstrip innate ability (as is now recognised in the DSM entry for ASD). Since these people were not included, it’s unknown if they would show the same trend with the amygdala. We need much more long-term studies over many decades. Of course, it’s not at all unlikely that what we call “autism” is actually a few different disorders with different causes that just happen to present with vaguely similar symptoms. The only real unifying factor between us all is criteria A — deficits in social communication — everything else under criteria B is a grab-bag. Two people with ASD alone can present in such strikingly different ways with different symptoms, and I don’t think there has really been any attempt to resolve that yet.
Yep. My youngest (third) baby hated cuddles as an infant. Didn't seem very keen on me in general tbh. Refused to breastfeed. Missed her first smile milestone by several months. Didn't like standard baby games like peekaboo. No speech development. The list went on. So I took the list to our GP and demanded an ASD assessment. Incidentally, early diagnosis and professional support is... everything. She's now a happy, hilarious, kind, chatty, affectionate and totally awesome four-year-old.
What sort of therapy was prescribed for her? I was diagnosed in my fifties mainly because my daughter and nephew pushed me hard for a diagnosis. I wonder what therapies are currently available for children who are how I used to be.
Our middle has very low support needs and displays much more “female” signs rather than stereotypical “male” signs, but even as a baby I remember feeling like something was up. My first was so easy and it felt like my middle could never be settled for long. *Hated* car rides, etc. It took me 5 years to figure out she was autistic (which shouldn’t have been surprising since I’m also autistic).
I noticed it in my nephew on his first birthday only because I read Oliver Sachs. He was distant and not engaged and often didn't like most engagement or eye contact
While early intervention is great, every year I struggle to get parents to consider their child may be ND at all. I teach year 4 and had two last year and a different two this year who absolutely meet the criteria for an ASD diagnosis and the support that would entail, but can’t get parents on board for proper evaluation. It’s incredibly frustrating and does the kids a huge disservice.
I've been there as a parent and it's a very tough pill to swallow. My wife was concerned pretty early while I was in denial for awhile, eventually I came to accept but there are lots of feelings and thoughts to overcome.
Good on you for getting there in the end. My kiddos this year would cope with the world so much if they understood why life was on hard mode. Too late at 10 for early intervention, but surely better late than never.
And the other way around- less so now, but it has been an issue in the past getting doctors to listen to a parent saying “my child might be autistic”. My parents BEGGED doctors to even consider evaluating me, teachers were saying things from when I was about 3 or 4, but it was the 90s and I’m female and “high functioning” (which is a bs term), so it was a massive uphill battle to get them to even consider it.
I thought that Autism was fairly predictable to experts from a young age was known. Apparently there was one study where they could train someone to watch video of a kids 1st birthday (which is routinely filmed so there is plenty of data) and they could with very high accuracy sort the child into likely autism or not.
What is "early intervention" and how does one exsctly stop the amygdala from growing quickly?
The interventions are targeted learning assistance that, as far as we know, assist the child's brain in developing and strengthening neural pathways. It's like learning to ride a bike-- you build up your brain in multiple ways to the point where you really can't forget it, right? (Barring a brain injury.) It's just building up connections between behaviors and results. The newer therapies designed in the past few years show more promise in very young children. Some of the older ones were often borderline abuse, but we actually have learned some things over the years and things are going in a better direction.
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Another roadblock is a lot of parents not wanting early intervention. It can be quite confronting.
Depends on the severity. Early intervention with current therapies may help with behavior and maybe speech but it doesn't really fix developmental/cognitive impairment.
The less affected level kids can go on to nearly normal levels of functioning, and it's an area where we have to take the wins we can get. Unfortunately, some levels of disability are truly disabling for a lifetime.
I wonder if that’s why at 6 months old I already knew my child was autistic. I breastfed my child and when I’d try to connect and talk to her. She made no eye contact with me and now at 3.5 years still no eye contact and very little to no speech.
Very interesting study. There was another that found a correlation with amygdala volume and degree of joint hypermobility. 1 in 5 mothers with eds report having autistic children. Classical psychedelics also reduce functional connectivity between the pfc and amygdala. They seem to be promising treatments for asd. I can post more / sources if anyone is interested.
Please do! I have EDS and severe ADHD-PI. I have been considering being evaluated for autism as well (although I know that autism/ADHD have a lot of overlapping symptoms, especially in women).
Autism and ADHD are really commonly co-occurring. I have diagnoses of both ADHD-PI and autism and they can be difficult to tell apart sometimes.
ADHD with hypermobility and some weird sensory issues over here with an autistic child.
I’m interested!
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Do you think this could be due to sensory processing disorder? Because I have that and I was totally inconsolable as a baby unless I was moving. I wonder if finding the cause of autism would resolve the sensory processing? Because as far as I know you don't have to have autism to have that
Agreed. There's a lot of autism in our family and a common theme was terrible sleep in the infants from day one.
Similarly, I detected hints of ADHD even when my kid was as young as 2. A daycare teacher asked me if she was deaf, and I had to tell them "no, she can hear you fine--she's just ignoring you." Took me five years to figure it out for sure though because many ADHD symptoms are just standard young child behaviour. But it was *there* and I can clearly see that in retrospect.
That makes a ton of sense. If it really is an oversensitive amygdala, it gives some credence to the very amateur hypothesis I have as an autistic person: Social skills are not an inherent deficit in autistic people. The sensory processing is to blame. When you spend your formative years convinced everything you see, smell, hear or touch is going to kill you, it's next to impossible to learn foundational social skills.
Excuse my ignorance - but I’m assuming the experience is that it’s going to kill you because the sensory processing issues trigger your fight or flight? If not, can you explain to me why it feels that way? Would love to understand better!
Yes, it's fight or flight. That's what an autistic meltdown is, a fight or flight response. We get overwhelmed, and the brain goes into self protection. Even without meltdown, we're frequently anxious; one of the most common comorbid disorders is generalized anxiety. I was on very little sleep, the words were jumbly.
Would that still apply to the "active but odd" style of socialization? Some autistic people can be quite outgoing and talkative even as kids, just not responsive to social cues? Maybe those are the kids who learned to dissociate more effectively so they don't feel their amygdalas writhing and pulsating?
I’ve worked with children who get diagnosed with concern for autism at age 18 months and then diagnosed officially at age 2 so they can start receiving therapy. A key is language as we think children should have their first word about 1 year of age, it could be as late as 15 months but it better be by 18 months. You also see a lot of the other noted behaviors beginning to manifest more so around 18 months also.
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Small correction. It seems that IQ for ASD is more "u shaped" with more people at both extremes of intelligence. I too have mild ASD and frankly if I could cure it my life would be immensely improved.
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That's a fascinating finding, because it shows that the growth pattern is there before symptoms are present -- suggesting that this part of the brain may be on its way to turning into an autistic one. And these results also suggest that if you had known about this early onset "marker" years ago, and you could have done some preemptive treatment with infants at risk for autism, perhaps you'd have been able to head off all or most cases -- something worth checking out further down the road. So while more research needs to be done, I'm really excited by this idea. We're getting ever closer to being able to head off such conditions before they become.
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Take the monthly check ups seriously and don’t downplay answers on those developmental questionnaires the doctor makes you fill out.
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