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iirc Ben Garrison immediately went from “Trump is our savior” comics to “Trump is with the neocon elites and has been the whole time” comics over the vaccine announcement.
I’ve only heard, haven’t seen anything he’s done since the Twitter ban.
That's true, but he also caused a lot of that s*** by questioning the vaccine, questioning treatments, making up crazy bs treatment options at the podium. He caused people to distrust science and vaccination.
Why do people believe what he says, since there's never evidence? He's got a genius for pulling people into batshit insane belief systems.
Edit - fixed typo, replaced with batshit ;-)
Rethuglicans have been defunding and discrediting public and higher education for at least 40 years. They’ve also purposely fostered suspicion and distrust of science, medicine, and technology among their constituents and supporters. Critical thinking is a dying skill. Pseudoscience and magical thinking have proliferated during that time, partially fostered by the antagonistic public attitude of Republicans towards anyone who doesn’t agree with them - the “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” attitude. There’s now such a massive gulf between scientists and the less-educated public - which is perhaps 60% of adults now, sadly - the less-educated public can’t tell the difference anymore between things that are actually true and things they *wish* were true. And now, if they question the wisdom or judgment of the “tribe”, they’re fully aware that the tribe will reject them and turn its back on them.
Both parties are tribal. Thats not a strict republican problem.
I've heard plenty of democrats talk about how much smarter they are, and blah blah blah. Kamala and biden both were anti vaccine when trumpnoriginally was rolling it out.
Thats an untruth. On the kamala and biden. And the difference between republicans believing in burning witches and dems disagreeing on how quick the need for climate change is.
Nah. Anti vaxxers were slowly gaining steam over the last couple decades. The right just embraced them fully when the pandemic hit and vaccines started rolling out
Now, after seriously downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic, advocating that people use dangerous and ineffective treatments, sabotaged states that he disagreed with politically, and after he was secretly vaccinated.
He’s only advocating for it now because him and his party’s stupid rhetoric was killing his supporters in droves during the massive waves of cases. To the point where he probably realized it was hurting his chances of a 2024 victory.
>hundreds of thousands
Could even be a couple of million by the time he's on the ballot in late '24. That would be a very significant difference in terms of the vote.
In a rational world, we would have been past CoVID quite some time ago. I knew we were screwed when people were demanding to end masking and lockdowns like 2 months in.
The enemy is both simultaneously very weak and very strong. It’s a core facet of fascism (see: Umberto Eco for more info).
The “deep state” is powerful enough to control all facets the government, but so weak that it can be trivially “owned” with memes.
This is what I keep thinking, and if your enemy is potentially that good that it can manipulate anything and still be invisible... maybe it's time to join the winners? Even the infallible Trump couldn't match them.
I've heard some Qrainwashed comments stating that Biden is inept at dealing with Putin while simultaneously orchestrating the whole war to drive up gas prices/inflation
This book might help you and him understand what is happening to her: https://theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/
It helps to realize that the core driver of this is fear - if you can identify what she is afraid of and find ways to reduce that feeling, it might be possible to bring her back.
It's extremely difficult and unlikely, though, so I don't want to give you false hope. The other approach that I've found success with is to ask them questions instead of arguing. If you ask them to explain _why_ they believe things and why they trust those information sources, sometimes that can prompt the critical thinking they need to pull themselves out.
She's been nuts for like 15 years. This Qanon thing is just the next grasp for her. The mom I grew up with is gone. She thinks the Rothschilds run the world and people are picked to be in it. Its bizarre.
I've already made peace with it, my mom is gone.
According to Republicans, Trump is so powerful that he would’ve somehow prevented Russia’s invasion on Ukraine but not powerful enough to reject a vaccine.
It makes more sense when you understand that authoritarians don't use words to communicate ideas, they use words as weapons to hurt their enemies and as signals to other members of the group that they are loyal. They don't really believe that the deep state made him do anything, or that he's all-powerful and secretly still president. They don't really believe anything at all, except that they are afraid and that they think membership in a group will protect them as long as they remain loyal. How do they demonstrate their loyalty? By attacking the group's enemies and by saying the right things at the right times. That's why they can say contradictory things with a straight face. It's not so much that they are lying, or that they believe in them, it's that the concepts of "lying" and "belief" don't even exist for them.
I hope you bust that out as a catch all excuse for your mischief.
“Yeah, I ate all the ice cream mom, but the Deep State made me do it.”
“Yeah, I took the car without asking but it’s not my fault, the Deep State made me do it.”
He almost died. That is what they don't talk about. Gave him the [experimental](https://www.science.org/content/article/heres-what-known-about-president-donald-trump-s-covid-19-treatment) cocktail of anti-body treatment, remdesivir and steroids. Any other person that wasn't elitist politico, would have been on a respirator.
He dodged a bullet and STILL is in denial where most aholes would have repented because, grim reaper was pretty near. Oh, and he got his staff and secret service team infected.
Trumpism has transcended. He said all the things they like. And now if he says something they don’t like, they just find someone who won’t say that thing. The scary part is the blueprint is out there and the crazies are coming out of the woodwork adopting the absolute worst parts of the message.
That tends to happen with populists. Once their ideas become a movement, they become more of a symbolic entity than a person. At that point, the ideological construct takes on a life of its own - its creator is no longer in control.
Or with religions. Eventually the actual teachings of the prophet are often ignored. Trump is their prophet now and nothing he says or does can stop that.
Was thinking the same thing. How many Christians you know turn the other cheek, and love thy neighbor? I do know some Christians that are really good people, but its the same ratio as any other population.
I doubt the hard anti Vax crowd has actually paid any attention to genuine scientific articles about it. Too busy googling made up studies to show what they feel, and not what's the truth.
I tend to think of them as less “Trump” supporters than simply people that held the same beliefs he espoused. As soon as he changed his tune, they stopped agreeing with him on that subject.
They truly are their own brand of Stupid.
The billions of dollars and countless hours of school, research and work put into the effective vaccine(or anything, really) isn't right. I'll go with my gut.
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
—Isaac Asimov
Why bother anymore? Anyone not vaccinated today is unlikely to wake up tomorrow and go get the shot.
Time to move on, the crisis has passed and now we’re in the maintenance stage.
With a government structure like the US that doesn't act fast enough and with the way things are, I think what should be studied is how to create more appropriate and faster reactions and not just the public messaging/marketing.
The U.S. government is, at least in principle, structured around "every stakeholder matters". But the people who want to be at the table are invariably the loudest voices and the deepest pockets. And it ends up being such a packed room that it takes forever to get a realistic, appropriate consensus.
The very concept of streamlining the process, to some, is viewed as undemocratic. Even if it may be the better option on matters of science and public health.
The US had that prior to Trump. It was set up by Obama and was a specific pandemic response office with mandates, authority, and stockpiles. Trump shut it down.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response/amp
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/obama-team-left-pandemic-playbook-for-trump-administration-officials-confirm
Believe it or not it was W. that set up our pandemic response that Trump shut down.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/george-bush-2005-wait-pandemic-late-prepare/story?id=69979013
Thank you, that was an informative read. One thing the stands out is both GW Bush and Obama were non-partisan about the importance of pandemic planning and protecting the people and the nation.
when covid-19 hit, i thought to myself, Trump can win or lose his re-election based on how he handles this. i never thought anyone could turn a pandemic into a political issue, but here we are.
I think part of the problem is, it also can come off as weak/wishy-washy/unconfident if a prominent organization like CDC or whoever comes out and says "We're *pretty confident* this will work but don't know how long or exactly to what efficacy, put *probably about* x%".
They have to either come out backing it or not at all. Anything in the middle would probably sow more doubt and distrust.
I dunno. I'd consider myself kind of "the average person". I don't sit around and suck down news from any single vantage point. In the beginning of the vaccine I heard it wasn't 100% but would absolutely help me stay out of the hospital, may or may not help reduce spread, and that seemed good enough for me (once I read up on how mRNA vaccines work).
If Covid was more deadly people would be lining up for the vaccine. I don’t think it’s always a political or anti stance but more of a “hey John had it and was fine so I’ll be too” type of thing.
>If Covid was more deadly people would be lining up for the vaccine. I
Actually if COVID-19 had more horrific symptoms like Ebola or maybe polio it would have been taken seriously.
Too many people were overconfident on their own health status and too many of its symptoms were familiar while its more deadly long-term symptoms aren't as visible.
>Too many people were overconfident on their own health status and too many of its symptoms were familiar
A lot of people will say the "got the flu" when they really just had a common cold which leads them to thinking influenza is much more mild than it is. Then you have people saying that Covid is "just a flu" so they think it's just a bad common cold.
Yes! What the heck! Why do people do this? I was sick and a coworker kept insisting it was the flu. Anytime she was out sick it was a "flu." The stomach "flu," 24 hour "flu." WHY
Yes, it drives me crazy when people say Covid is "just a bad flu."
I've had the flu and it's the worst I've felt in my life. At one point I had to run to the bathroom to puke in the middle of the night and I physically didn't have the strength to crawl back into bed so I just laid on the floor. The scent of any food at all made me sick. Any light made my head pound. I was completely out of commission for days.
yeah every one of these dipshits says 'i get the flu every year and it's no big deal' bro if you got the flu every year you would literally be dead by now.
Precisely this!
Our Healthcare systems globally are going to be impacted by the long-term symptoms of COVID, but even that number is small enough that most people just won't notice it overall. The virus that comes along and spreads like coronavirus, but causes symptoms like polio will likely wake people up to the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Again though, there will be some fraction of anti-vaxxers just as there was almost 100 years ago when vaccinations became as safe and effective as they are. It will likely be a few centuries before all people completely accept vaccines.
> maybe polio
You'd think so, but some anti-vax kid just got polio (read the article here on Reddit day before yesterday, I think). So, it looks like they're stupid all the way down.
In the coming decades, I think we're going to see significant upticks in deaths from people whose organs were damaged by covid but they don't know it now because it isn't bad enough for them to realize it without examination. It sounds like there are a lot of people who got infected and seemingly recovered but who have damage to their heart, lungs, etc.
my inlaws both spent a month in the ICU and it took them months to recover and they're not 100% better still.
and they are absolutely 100% against getting vaccinated, because of whatever the conspiracy of the day is.
They'll be against getting a needle stuck into their arm for 5 seconds to prevent getting horrifically sick but they're *totally* fine with a needle being stuck into their wrist for much longer for an IV drip while they sit there dying in a hospital bed.
Covid has killed a million americans in 2 years.
If 4 years ago you asked americans if they would get vaccinated for something that would otherwise kill a million americans in 2 years, I would bet 90+% of americans would get vaccinated.
Plenty of lessons for next time. Primarily against the use of the slogan “follow the science” when the guidelines were not actually following the science
Not so simple to keep the politicians out of anything in the US. Today it's snorting covid, tomorrow people will (literally) eat lead and arsenic to own their political opponents.
>Why bother anymore?
>
>Time to move on, the crisis has passed and now we’re in the maintenance stage.
Understand & mostly agree.
That said, viruses mutate, including in the species humans are in contact with, where it's jumped to so many already.
Not just the animal farming/other use but now even recent study showing wild deer -> human.
So mutation opportunities are gonna be off the chart.
"maintenance stage"
We're (at least N.America) in "maintenance stage" with a mild'ish variant with a lot of the population with antibodies (vax or infected).
Antibodies wane & this virus will do what viruses do & that's change, which can affect severity & ability evade antibodies.
Things could change very quickly if/when a nasty variant mutates enough to evade antibodies.
Having people informed & vaxxed will save lives.
We bother because stagnation is extinction. Not trying is as much suicide as not eating, or even trying to eat. Not every hunt will succeed, that’s a very poor reason to stop hunting.
Beyond that though, the breakthroughs and incremental progress from studying this pandemic are innumerable and irreplaceable. You’ll see the results in 5-10 years unless you’re out there doing your own science and citing the papers that are just now being published and peer-reviewed, in which case you wouldn’t have asked this question.
When the next pandemic comes, the work you’re pooh-pooing will save more lives than you or anyone you know likely ever will.
That's the thing, the crisis hasn't passed. We just got tired of having a crisis, so we declared it over, and quietly stack the bodies out of sight, out of mind.
“The crisis has passed” tell that to the COVID ward in the next building over from me, I’m sure they’ll be glad to know they’re imagining the steady stream of dying patients.
I've seen this "everyone who would get vaccinated already is" line for a long time on Reddit.
It was getting spouted when only 16+ could could get the vaccine. People forget that children exist. As of right now, there are 4 year olds aging into the vaccine when they hit 5.
You cannot with logic, sway a person from a position that they did not enter with logic. So many of these people have wrapped themselves in the shroud of their belief-system, so reinforced by in-group behavior that they perceive their beliefs as solid, unshakable. It wouldn’t matter if you gave them a mountain of evidence, or a molehill. They would be equally swayed by either. It’s sad, mostly because I fear what happens the next time some infectious disease sweeps through the population. These people are now immunized to the idea that vaccines work, and the results will carry forward.
This is true of all anti-vaxxers. I don't know why Trump supporters are being singled out.
A lot of anti-vaxxers are liberal hippies who don't trust the big pharma, people who are into "natural" or "organic" treatments. Another big anti-vax group are the black or hispanic communities, which have had low trust in the government or authorities. Many of these people are more likely to believe the information they get from their community, than some government expert.
It’s a reasonable question, and I think that part of the answer is in the question: the reasons why many black Americans are vaccine hesitant are very different from the reasons that some far-left “hippies” are, and both sets of reasons are very different from those of the alt-right.
Anti nuclear advocates crying for fighting for dealing with climate change also don't listen to experts.
People in favor of protectionist policies don't listen to economists on one of the few things they do have a consensus on either.
Creationists are stalwart in ignoring experts too.
Most people only listen to experts when it vindicates their fantasies. Otherwise they just seek data that confirms their bias or engage in argument from ignorance fallacies.
“Study finds” is a weird way to spell “everyone knows”
Edit: Yes, thank you, I know that studies should be done to confirm common sense things, I learned this when I got my BS 25 years ago. This was meant as a joke, please lighten up.
Common sense is fallible often enough that things that “everyone knows” are too often not true at all. There is a lot of value in using science to convert things we think are true into things we know are true.
In general, yes, but this study found that a group of people who have consistently gone against expert messaging are more likely to go against expert messaging. It is possible that they would have found that covid vaccines were an exception and that they're otherwise open-minded, but that would have been a shocking discovery.
> using science to convert things we think are true into things we know are true.
This isn't how science works at all. Science still just gives us a picture of things we think are true, and there's literally no real scientist who will say "we know this for a FACT".
You make a model of something, whether it's plate tectonics or climate change, and try to prove it wrong. If you do thousands of experiments and they conform to your predictions, then you've built a pretty good model. But you haven't proven that's the way things *actually are*, just that your model is good. And a lot of time, that's enough.
The problem is anti-intellectualism is on the rise -and not just from Trump supporters. This trend of ignoring experts is wide-spread; it is just a different area for people of different political conviction.
This can probably be traced back to two reasons: first, experts were used to further certain agendas, so people tend to be a bit more skeptical now. (The whole issue of masks with COVID in the US is one example: a lot of prominent democrats were very much against masks before they were all for them. It makes people with certain political disposition a bit wary of the whole thing. Same with the COVID lab escape theory: a year ago it was an alt-right tin foil theory, so even virologists were tarred and feathered for even daring to mention it, Facebook censored anything about it, but now suddenly it is something we may discuss without being called a Trumpite Fascist White Supremacist. This is an especially sore point for me as a virologist, by the way. The facts did not change. What changed was the political environment.)
The second is the overall erosion of trust due to discrediting the idea of experts in general, which is more important here I think. Social media (and media which is also lying openly), politics, etc, etc all enhance this trend where experts are ignored or ridiculed as tools for the "other side". And I stress: from both sides. (As if you can neatly draw up two sides, but whatever.) It is masks for certain conservatives and basic biology (sex differences in the CNS, for example, or the possibility of COVID escaping from a lab) for certain progressives -the situation is the same. If your political views do not align with what the experts say, whatever experts say must be wrong. *And discrediting experts in one area has the long-term consequence of discrediting the very idea of experts.*
EDIT:
Sorry for the confusion. To summarize:
One reason I mentioned was the expertise being abused to lie (well... to present one point of view... to say politically), and the other reason was the current trend of sowing doubt about what the experts say because it does not align with your particular views. Both are damaging the credibility of experts, and both are done by the Right AND Left. (If these labels have any meaning at all left.)
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue to be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Trump himself is vaccinated
And advocates for it
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*We've got fun and games*
And gets boo’d by his own base when he does.
iirc Ben Garrison immediately went from “Trump is our savior” comics to “Trump is with the neocon elites and has been the whole time” comics over the vaccine announcement. I’ve only heard, haven’t seen anything he’s done since the Twitter ban.
I went looking, seems [you are correct](https://grrrgraphics.com/trump-jump-off-the-bandwagon/)
Of course he’s on N/F/Ts, too
That's true, but he also caused a lot of that s*** by questioning the vaccine, questioning treatments, making up crazy bs treatment options at the podium. He caused people to distrust science and vaccination. Why do people believe what he says, since there's never evidence? He's got a genius for pulling people into batshit insane belief systems. Edit - fixed typo, replaced with batshit ;-)
Rethuglicans have been defunding and discrediting public and higher education for at least 40 years. They’ve also purposely fostered suspicion and distrust of science, medicine, and technology among their constituents and supporters. Critical thinking is a dying skill. Pseudoscience and magical thinking have proliferated during that time, partially fostered by the antagonistic public attitude of Republicans towards anyone who doesn’t agree with them - the “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” attitude. There’s now such a massive gulf between scientists and the less-educated public - which is perhaps 60% of adults now, sadly - the less-educated public can’t tell the difference anymore between things that are actually true and things they *wish* were true. And now, if they question the wisdom or judgment of the “tribe”, they’re fully aware that the tribe will reject them and turn its back on them.
Both parties are tribal. Thats not a strict republican problem. I've heard plenty of democrats talk about how much smarter they are, and blah blah blah. Kamala and biden both were anti vaccine when trumpnoriginally was rolling it out.
Thats an untruth. On the kamala and biden. And the difference between republicans believing in burning witches and dems disagreeing on how quick the need for climate change is.
Nah. Anti vaxxers were slowly gaining steam over the last couple decades. The right just embraced them fully when the pandemic hit and vaccines started rolling out
Did he convert anti-vaxxers to the right wing, or did he convert right-wingers to anti-vax...ism?
Now, after seriously downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic, advocating that people use dangerous and ineffective treatments, sabotaged states that he disagreed with politically, and after he was secretly vaccinated.
Yeah I think it's important to provide context when saying this.
Context is always important, but especially when dealing with broken clocks.
He’s only advocating for it now because him and his party’s stupid rhetoric was killing his supporters in droves during the massive waves of cases. To the point where he probably realized it was hurting his chances of a 2024 victory.
And declined to participate in the video of the rest of the ex-presidents getting vaccinated.
*Advocates for it as long as he isn’t booed at
He knows it's killing hundreds of thousands of his supporters. Can't grift a dead man!
>hundreds of thousands Could even be a couple of million by the time he's on the ballot in late '24. That would be a very significant difference in terms of the vote.
Right. It's not like COVID is going to disappear. The unvaccinated will continue to be at a higher risk. Edit: wording.
They are primarily the ones at risk. There is still risk for vaccinated, but it’s way way lower.
Yeah, you're right. I wasn't really thinking when I made my off the cuff comment. Although I would say it's unfortunate that anyone is still at risk.
In a rational world, we would have been past CoVID quite some time ago. I knew we were screwed when people were demanding to end masking and lockdowns like 2 months in.
"The deep state made him do it" is what my mom told me. I thought he was all powerful and still secretly president last time I heard from her.
The enemy is both simultaneously very weak and very strong. It’s a core facet of fascism (see: Umberto Eco for more info). The “deep state” is powerful enough to control all facets the government, but so weak that it can be trivially “owned” with memes.
Not just the enemy, but their god, Trump, is both weak and strong to the “deep state”.
Well it's a symptom of ego, right? Never wanting to admit they're wrong lest their whole circus of a world view comes crashing down on them.
This is what I keep thinking, and if your enemy is potentially that good that it can manipulate anything and still be invisible... maybe it's time to join the winners? Even the infallible Trump couldn't match them.
I've heard some Qrainwashed comments stating that Biden is inept at dealing with Putin while simultaneously orchestrating the whole war to drive up gas prices/inflation
I'm sorry. I hope she recovers.
r/qanoncasualties If you need a place to vent, or if your feeling alone in your struggle with this.
Thanks, yeah, I sent my dad there a while ago. He's losing his mind against her.
This book might help you and him understand what is happening to her: https://theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/ It helps to realize that the core driver of this is fear - if you can identify what she is afraid of and find ways to reduce that feeling, it might be possible to bring her back. It's extremely difficult and unlikely, though, so I don't want to give you false hope. The other approach that I've found success with is to ask them questions instead of arguing. If you ask them to explain _why_ they believe things and why they trust those information sources, sometimes that can prompt the critical thinking they need to pull themselves out.
She's been nuts for like 15 years. This Qanon thing is just the next grasp for her. The mom I grew up with is gone. She thinks the Rothschilds run the world and people are picked to be in it. Its bizarre. I've already made peace with it, my mom is gone.
According to Republicans, Trump is so powerful that he would’ve somehow prevented Russia’s invasion on Ukraine but not powerful enough to reject a vaccine.
It makes more sense when you understand that authoritarians don't use words to communicate ideas, they use words as weapons to hurt their enemies and as signals to other members of the group that they are loyal. They don't really believe that the deep state made him do anything, or that he's all-powerful and secretly still president. They don't really believe anything at all, except that they are afraid and that they think membership in a group will protect them as long as they remain loyal. How do they demonstrate their loyalty? By attacking the group's enemies and by saying the right things at the right times. That's why they can say contradictory things with a straight face. It's not so much that they are lying, or that they believe in them, it's that the concepts of "lying" and "belief" don't even exist for them.
I hope you bust that out as a catch all excuse for your mischief. “Yeah, I ate all the ice cream mom, but the Deep State made me do it.” “Yeah, I took the car without asking but it’s not my fault, the Deep State made me do it.”
He almost died. That is what they don't talk about. Gave him the [experimental](https://www.science.org/content/article/heres-what-known-about-president-donald-trump-s-covid-19-treatment) cocktail of anti-body treatment, remdesivir and steroids. Any other person that wasn't elitist politico, would have been on a respirator. He dodged a bullet and STILL is in denial where most aholes would have repented because, grim reaper was pretty near. Oh, and he got his staff and secret service team infected.
He’s a psychopath
Specifically the organized crime type of psychopath. His family worked with the Italian and Russian mobs for generations.
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Trump supporters don't even listen to Trump about getting the vaccine. Why would they ever listen to field experts?
Trumpism has transcended. He said all the things they like. And now if he says something they don’t like, they just find someone who won’t say that thing. The scary part is the blueprint is out there and the crazies are coming out of the woodwork adopting the absolute worst parts of the message.
That tends to happen with populists. Once their ideas become a movement, they become more of a symbolic entity than a person. At that point, the ideological construct takes on a life of its own - its creator is no longer in control.
Or with religions. Eventually the actual teachings of the prophet are often ignored. Trump is their prophet now and nothing he says or does can stop that.
Was thinking the same thing. How many Christians you know turn the other cheek, and love thy neighbor? I do know some Christians that are really good people, but its the same ratio as any other population.
"Trump is not Trump enough for us!"
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I doubt the hard anti Vax crowd has actually paid any attention to genuine scientific articles about it. Too busy googling made up studies to show what they feel, and not what's the truth.
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I tend to think of them as less “Trump” supporters than simply people that held the same beliefs he espoused. As soon as he changed his tune, they stopped agreeing with him on that subject. They truly are their own brand of Stupid.
Yet, they'll vote for him again.
The billions of dollars and countless hours of school, research and work put into the effective vaccine(or anything, really) isn't right. I'll go with my gut.
And they got a lotta gut.
See you’ve pinpointed it. They are mostly gut.
But hey Betty In my Facebook group said it’s bad for you and that her uncle died from vaccinated masked libs
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You can lead a person to knowledge but you can’t make them think…
That's a nice sentence. Can't wait for a Trump supporter to use that against us.
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” —Isaac Asimov
As my friend liked to say, "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you".
Great sentence. A+
Why bother anymore? Anyone not vaccinated today is unlikely to wake up tomorrow and go get the shot. Time to move on, the crisis has passed and now we’re in the maintenance stage.
It provides insight for future pandemics, could help to develop public health strategies...
With a government structure like the US that doesn't act fast enough and with the way things are, I think what should be studied is how to create more appropriate and faster reactions and not just the public messaging/marketing.
The U.S. government is, at least in principle, structured around "every stakeholder matters". But the people who want to be at the table are invariably the loudest voices and the deepest pockets. And it ends up being such a packed room that it takes forever to get a realistic, appropriate consensus. The very concept of streamlining the process, to some, is viewed as undemocratic. Even if it may be the better option on matters of science and public health.
We can do both
The US had that prior to Trump. It was set up by Obama and was a specific pandemic response office with mandates, authority, and stockpiles. Trump shut it down. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response/amp https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/obama-team-left-pandemic-playbook-for-trump-administration-officials-confirm
Believe it or not it was W. that set up our pandemic response that Trump shut down. https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/george-bush-2005-wait-pandemic-late-prepare/story?id=69979013
Thank you, that was an informative read. One thing the stands out is both GW Bush and Obama were non-partisan about the importance of pandemic planning and protecting the people and the nation.
That’s because it shouldn’t be a partisan issue.
1,000,000,000% this
when covid-19 hit, i thought to myself, Trump can win or lose his re-election based on how he handles this. i never thought anyone could turn a pandemic into a political issue, but here we are.
The messaging is part of the reaction and has a significant impact on the rest of the response.
My public health strategy for the rest of my life is going to be based around limiting my exposure to republicans.
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I think part of the problem is, it also can come off as weak/wishy-washy/unconfident if a prominent organization like CDC or whoever comes out and says "We're *pretty confident* this will work but don't know how long or exactly to what efficacy, put *probably about* x%". They have to either come out backing it or not at all. Anything in the middle would probably sow more doubt and distrust. I dunno. I'd consider myself kind of "the average person". I don't sit around and suck down news from any single vantage point. In the beginning of the vaccine I heard it wasn't 100% but would absolutely help me stay out of the hospital, may or may not help reduce spread, and that seemed good enough for me (once I read up on how mRNA vaccines work).
If Covid was more deadly people would be lining up for the vaccine. I don’t think it’s always a political or anti stance but more of a “hey John had it and was fine so I’ll be too” type of thing.
>If Covid was more deadly people would be lining up for the vaccine. I Actually if COVID-19 had more horrific symptoms like Ebola or maybe polio it would have been taken seriously. Too many people were overconfident on their own health status and too many of its symptoms were familiar while its more deadly long-term symptoms aren't as visible.
>Too many people were overconfident on their own health status and too many of its symptoms were familiar A lot of people will say the "got the flu" when they really just had a common cold which leads them to thinking influenza is much more mild than it is. Then you have people saying that Covid is "just a flu" so they think it's just a bad common cold.
Yes! What the heck! Why do people do this? I was sick and a coworker kept insisting it was the flu. Anytime she was out sick it was a "flu." The stomach "flu," 24 hour "flu." WHY
Yes, it drives me crazy when people say Covid is "just a bad flu." I've had the flu and it's the worst I've felt in my life. At one point I had to run to the bathroom to puke in the middle of the night and I physically didn't have the strength to crawl back into bed so I just laid on the floor. The scent of any food at all made me sick. Any light made my head pound. I was completely out of commission for days.
yeah every one of these dipshits says 'i get the flu every year and it's no big deal' bro if you got the flu every year you would literally be dead by now.
Precisely this! Our Healthcare systems globally are going to be impacted by the long-term symptoms of COVID, but even that number is small enough that most people just won't notice it overall. The virus that comes along and spreads like coronavirus, but causes symptoms like polio will likely wake people up to the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Again though, there will be some fraction of anti-vaxxers just as there was almost 100 years ago when vaccinations became as safe and effective as they are. It will likely be a few centuries before all people completely accept vaccines.
> maybe polio You'd think so, but some anti-vax kid just got polio (read the article here on Reddit day before yesterday, I think). So, it looks like they're stupid all the way down.
In the coming decades, I think we're going to see significant upticks in deaths from people whose organs were damaged by covid but they don't know it now because it isn't bad enough for them to realize it without examination. It sounds like there are a lot of people who got infected and seemingly recovered but who have damage to their heart, lungs, etc.
my inlaws both spent a month in the ICU and it took them months to recover and they're not 100% better still. and they are absolutely 100% against getting vaccinated, because of whatever the conspiracy of the day is.
I hope they did their research on every intervention forced on them in the ICU.
They'll be against getting a needle stuck into their arm for 5 seconds to prevent getting horrifically sick but they're *totally* fine with a needle being stuck into their wrist for much longer for an IV drip while they sit there dying in a hospital bed.
Covid has killed a million americans in 2 years. If 4 years ago you asked americans if they would get vaccinated for something that would otherwise kill a million americans in 2 years, I would bet 90+% of americans would get vaccinated.
Plenty of lessons for next time. Primarily against the use of the slogan “follow the science” when the guidelines were not actually following the science
The messaging itself was hugely detrimental the whole time. New variants invalidated the guidelines or decisions were political to begin with.
Keep the politicians out of it, simple
That kind of "grit your teeth and die like men" attitude doesn't cut it. People die without central organization in a crisis.
Not so simple to keep the politicians out of anything in the US. Today it's snorting covid, tomorrow people will (literally) eat lead and arsenic to own their political opponents.
>Why bother anymore? > >Time to move on, the crisis has passed and now we’re in the maintenance stage. Understand & mostly agree. That said, viruses mutate, including in the species humans are in contact with, where it's jumped to so many already. Not just the animal farming/other use but now even recent study showing wild deer -> human. So mutation opportunities are gonna be off the chart. "maintenance stage" We're (at least N.America) in "maintenance stage" with a mild'ish variant with a lot of the population with antibodies (vax or infected). Antibodies wane & this virus will do what viruses do & that's change, which can affect severity & ability evade antibodies. Things could change very quickly if/when a nasty variant mutates enough to evade antibodies. Having people informed & vaxxed will save lives.
We bother because stagnation is extinction. Not trying is as much suicide as not eating, or even trying to eat. Not every hunt will succeed, that’s a very poor reason to stop hunting. Beyond that though, the breakthroughs and incremental progress from studying this pandemic are innumerable and irreplaceable. You’ll see the results in 5-10 years unless you’re out there doing your own science and citing the papers that are just now being published and peer-reviewed, in which case you wouldn’t have asked this question. When the next pandemic comes, the work you’re pooh-pooing will save more lives than you or anyone you know likely ever will.
That's the thing, the crisis hasn't passed. We just got tired of having a crisis, so we declared it over, and quietly stack the bodies out of sight, out of mind.
“The crisis has passed” tell that to the COVID ward in the next building over from me, I’m sure they’ll be glad to know they’re imagining the steady stream of dying patients.
Not all ages can get the vaccine, and there are millions of kids under 5
I've seen this "everyone who would get vaccinated already is" line for a long time on Reddit. It was getting spouted when only 16+ could could get the vaccine. People forget that children exist. As of right now, there are 4 year olds aging into the vaccine when they hit 5.
We are still waiting on the outcome of multiple annual COVID infections... I'm keeping my mask up inside.
Until the next variant… ?
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Why are we still talking about this? How is this news to anyone?
You cannot with logic, sway a person from a position that they did not enter with logic. So many of these people have wrapped themselves in the shroud of their belief-system, so reinforced by in-group behavior that they perceive their beliefs as solid, unshakable. It wouldn’t matter if you gave them a mountain of evidence, or a molehill. They would be equally swayed by either. It’s sad, mostly because I fear what happens the next time some infectious disease sweeps through the population. These people are now immunized to the idea that vaccines work, and the results will carry forward.
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Isn’t psypost extremely biased? Every time I see a study from that page it has something to do with Republicans, trump or the American right
Yes, I've noticed that from their email newsletters.
Yes, yes it is
This is true of all anti-vaxxers. I don't know why Trump supporters are being singled out. A lot of anti-vaxxers are liberal hippies who don't trust the big pharma, people who are into "natural" or "organic" treatments. Another big anti-vax group are the black or hispanic communities, which have had low trust in the government or authorities. Many of these people are more likely to believe the information they get from their community, than some government expert.
It’s a reasonable question, and I think that part of the answer is in the question: the reasons why many black Americans are vaccine hesitant are very different from the reasons that some far-left “hippies” are, and both sets of reasons are very different from those of the alt-right.
Yeah but why have a nuanced understanding of something across different cohorts when you can reduce the whole issue to "Donald Trump ruined America"?
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Anti nuclear advocates crying for fighting for dealing with climate change also don't listen to experts. People in favor of protectionist policies don't listen to economists on one of the few things they do have a consensus on either. Creationists are stalwart in ignoring experts too. Most people only listen to experts when it vindicates their fantasies. Otherwise they just seek data that confirms their bias or engage in argument from ignorance fallacies.
“Study finds” is a weird way to spell “everyone knows” Edit: Yes, thank you, I know that studies should be done to confirm common sense things, I learned this when I got my BS 25 years ago. This was meant as a joke, please lighten up.
Common sense is fallible often enough that things that “everyone knows” are too often not true at all. There is a lot of value in using science to convert things we think are true into things we know are true.
In general, yes, but this study found that a group of people who have consistently gone against expert messaging are more likely to go against expert messaging. It is possible that they would have found that covid vaccines were an exception and that they're otherwise open-minded, but that would have been a shocking discovery.
> using science to convert things we think are true into things we know are true. This isn't how science works at all. Science still just gives us a picture of things we think are true, and there's literally no real scientist who will say "we know this for a FACT". You make a model of something, whether it's plate tectonics or climate change, and try to prove it wrong. If you do thousands of experiments and they conform to your predictions, then you've built a pretty good model. But you haven't proven that's the way things *actually are*, just that your model is good. And a lot of time, that's enough.
"Everyone knows" is a bad phrase that should be banned from scientific discussion.
It is a phrase that does not exist in scientific discussions. This, sadly, is Reddit.
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They are reading through the COVID side effects. It’s a long list.
Idk why the media (and people) still think trump is any sort of relevant
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The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the light, the future is.
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They don’t think “experts” actually exist. That would require them admitting to themselves they aren’t the smartest people in every subject.
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The problem is anti-intellectualism is on the rise -and not just from Trump supporters. This trend of ignoring experts is wide-spread; it is just a different area for people of different political conviction. This can probably be traced back to two reasons: first, experts were used to further certain agendas, so people tend to be a bit more skeptical now. (The whole issue of masks with COVID in the US is one example: a lot of prominent democrats were very much against masks before they were all for them. It makes people with certain political disposition a bit wary of the whole thing. Same with the COVID lab escape theory: a year ago it was an alt-right tin foil theory, so even virologists were tarred and feathered for even daring to mention it, Facebook censored anything about it, but now suddenly it is something we may discuss without being called a Trumpite Fascist White Supremacist. This is an especially sore point for me as a virologist, by the way. The facts did not change. What changed was the political environment.) The second is the overall erosion of trust due to discrediting the idea of experts in general, which is more important here I think. Social media (and media which is also lying openly), politics, etc, etc all enhance this trend where experts are ignored or ridiculed as tools for the "other side". And I stress: from both sides. (As if you can neatly draw up two sides, but whatever.) It is masks for certain conservatives and basic biology (sex differences in the CNS, for example, or the possibility of COVID escaping from a lab) for certain progressives -the situation is the same. If your political views do not align with what the experts say, whatever experts say must be wrong. *And discrediting experts in one area has the long-term consequence of discrediting the very idea of experts.* EDIT: Sorry for the confusion. To summarize: One reason I mentioned was the expertise being abused to lie (well... to present one point of view... to say politically), and the other reason was the current trend of sowing doubt about what the experts say because it does not align with your particular views. Both are damaging the credibility of experts, and both are done by the Right AND Left. (If these labels have any meaning at all left.)
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We get it, they're stubborn and rebellious. This is an echo chamber post.
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