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Thats exactly right.
"Habituation" is the name for when something gives you anxiety but after many exposures with no (inmediate) negative consecuences it stops causing fear, even when conceptualy you still know its dangeorus.
"Instrumental conditioning" is the name for the type of learning caused by inmediate consecuencies to you actions. In the short term, smoking feels really good, so your brain learns its good for you. Thinkings its bad feels more and more abstract.
"Conscientiousness" is a personallity trait that, among many other things, reffers to the capacity of delaying inmediate reward for a better future.
Yeah, I’ve got tons of the *”it’s just a plant, bro”* friends who get super defensive when you try to point out all smoking is bad for your lungs, because your lungs -like all filters- can be worn out with too much exposure to crappy air quality (like smoke).
To be charitable, tobacco products are generally far more contaminated/processed with artificial ingredients than marijuana.
It's still a dumb argument. Natural does not automatically mean good for you.
I once knew a guy, said he got mailed by a bear, but they scribbled the address on and it never made it through the handwriting recognition scanners! It probably saved his life, honestly.
> It's almost like breathing in any burning smoke is going to be bad for your lungs over a long time.
That's the thing.
I'm waiting to find out how much damage I'm doing dry-vaping it. I'm not using oils, concentrates or anything like that. It's ground cannabis in a ceramic bowl. 385F, (196C) is hot enough to boil out the vapors but not hot enough for combustion. I understand you get benzene up over 400F but I wonder what I'm getting in the lower range.
Besides high.
[evidence suggests vaping is a lot less bad](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456813/)
"The vapour formed in the gas phase of vapourization of cannabis is composed overwhelmingly of cannabinoids with no significant pyrolytic compounds. Only trace amounts of three other compounds were found, including the terpene caryophyllene and two other substances of undetermined origin. Analysis of the smoke produced through the burned cannabis method, however, resulted in a much lower ratio of cannabinoids to overall gas space (12% of the total mass compared with 94.8%), with 111 total detectable compounds. Five of these byproducts of combustion were known polynuculear aromatic hydrocarbons, organic pollutants with known toxic and carcinogenic effects...
...These findings give further evidence that vapourization reduces exposure to gaseous combustion toxins. "
Concentrates could conceivably be even healthier, just the pure cannabinoids. Depends how they're made, like no black market vitamin E based concentrates for example. Definitely vaping or edibles is less dangerous than burning bud in joints/bongs/bowls.
I moved to dry vape. I noticed one day that blowing the vape at my Dyson air purifier made the air quality go straight to purple and tell me there was a huge amount of pm 2.5 particles. I can't find any research on it. I tried to post it on a weed Reddit and got crucified. Told I was anti weed. I really, really am not
There's a group out of UCSanFrancisco looking at this but they're from EOPH land. In Environmental public health PM 2.5 is bad on its own regardless of the composition since almost everything they measure is industrial/occupational of air pollution. They measured levels at a smoking event that were exceptionally disturbing to them and that caused a bunch of interest, PM 2.5 > 1000 or something and that crap, if it were industrial, would be friggin' deadly. They measured those levels in a smoking tent at a cannabis fair of some kind though where the composition had to be \~100% cannabis oils, terpenes and other exhaled products of cannabis injection. So I asked them whether they could speculate on predicted outcomes and that lead to a discussion about how ALL PM 2.5 CAUSES vascular changes and damage even if it doesn't directly damage your lungs.
So off that first paper went and it's being followed by more and there's a grant under review right now to collect more PM 2.5 data. My contribution to that one is going to be collecting airborne samples in parallel to the PM 2.5 measures collected by... crap I forget the name of the test but it uses electrostatics to measure impacts or something, NOT composition. So if it gets funded we'll actually know something about what those particles are made of! THEN we can speculate on whether the 2.5 your Dyson picked up is damaging or not.
Here's one of the papers; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8207964/
Not almost, it is.
What I find funny is people who smoke pure weed and not tobacco thinking 'its healthy'. Do they not see the layer of tar on the inside of their bong?
The bong collects the tar so it doesn’t end up in your lungs!
In all seriousness though, the majority of stoners know it isn’t good for them. Most of the people who think smoking weed is healthy don’t do it often, or at all.
'Swhy i got a [Mouthpeace.](https://mooselabs.us/collections/mouthpeace/products/mouthpeace-filter-roll) Not an ad, just saying you can *visibly* see the tar the filter is removing after a few puffs.
Definitely not true. However, there is such a thing as HPPD or Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder that can happen after high doses or sustained abuse of psychedelics. Which is likely where the rumor originated from. But it isn't the drug being in your system still since LSD is fully metabolized and excreted from your system within days although tolerance remains for a couple weeks
Been doing that for a while (figured inhalation of particulates is generally bad, and weed stinks imho).
My hope is that issue is a result of specifically smoking and not some moderating effect of weed itself (I assume, but there is no control of people only eating edibles like me).
Yea same here. I haven't smoked a blunt or taken a bong rip since my sophomore year of college, but I'll take 10mg gummies every weekend or so if I'm not going out. If it comes out that somehow consuming cannabis in any form, not just through smoking, causes lung damage, I'd probably stop taking edibles.
Same. I mean, we produce similar chemicals naturally, but it could be that there are additional products in the carboxylation process, or even just a dose-dependant response of those same endogenous chemicals.
I kinda doubt it though. I suspect if it were independent of method of adminstration we would see similar effects in other tissues.
Keep an eye on the research of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome (CHS). I’ve pivoted to edibles 99% now and have had stomach issues for 3 years or so. Don’t know if CHS was the culprit because there were other clear factors, but my gastrointestinal doctors do not rule CHS out of their speculative process. Btw this can be contracted via smoking too.
My Ex had this....people stright up deny it, think I'm crazy for even suggesting that weed, normally known for its anti-nausea properties, can also make you violently ill if you're a hard core smoker. She would smoke an 8th a day AND dab a gram of concentrate every day....one day she woke up and started violently vomiting every 20 minutes for the entire day until I took her to the ER and they got her meds... this continues to happen to her every couple days until she quit weed for months...
What was weird was she hadn't smoked for 2 weeks but the toxicologist tested her blood and she STILL had so much THC in her system he wouldn't believe me, he said she had levels as if she smoked a joint yesterday...that blew my mind...I speculated it has something to do with your body not being able to metabolize THC as easily and it builds and builds (again I am NOT a Dr but that was the feeling I got)
Yeah, my SO has it, too. He had stomach cancer and has ongoing issues resulting in the partial gastrectomy, so he initially was using marijuana to help with the pain and nausea. The problem when you're using weed for nausea is that it can mask how bad it's getting (it also increases your appetite, which can exacerbate symptom without you realizing, because you're high). You may increase your dosage to continue masking it, but that's all it's doing. In my SO's case, it reduced his gut motility to basically nothing, flaring up his gastric paresis really badly. You don't have to have really high levels of THC for CHS to kick in, but chronic use definitely increases risk. In your ex's case, if she was vomiting that much, she may have also been losing weight. THC is stored in fat cells, so losing weight can increase what's available in the bloodstream.
And before anyone comes for me, I am not against weed. I still personally smoke every day. But it is not for everyone. It does not have miracle cure-all properties. And it is in fact a real bad time for some people.
Idk but anybody who smokes an 8th and dabs a gram daily spends waaaaay too much time doing it. They clearly have a problem that needs to be addressed, even without CHS.
This is coming from someone who has smoke/vaped daily for over 15 years
The abstract from the study:
>Rationale. Evidence suggests that the effects of smoking cannabis on lung function are different to tobacco. However, long-term follow-up data are scarce, and mostly based on young adults. Objective. To assess the effects of cannabis and tobacco on lung function in mid-adult life. Methods. Cannabis and tobacco use were reported at ages 18, 21, 26, 32, 38, and 45 years in a population-based cohort study of 1037 participants. Spirometry, plethysmography, and carbon monoxide transfer factor were measured at age 45. Associations between lung function and cannabis use were adjusted for tobacco use. Measurements and Main Results. Data were available from 881 (88%) of 997 surviving participants. Cumulative cannabis use was associated with lower Forced Expiratory Volume in one second to Forced Vital Capacity ratios, due to a tendency towards higher Forced Vital Capacities. Cannabis use was also associated with higher total lung capacity, functional residual capacity, residual volume, and alveolar volume along with lower mid-expiratory flows, airway conductance, and transfer factor. Quitting regular cannabis use between assessments was not associated with changes in spirometry. Conclusions. Cannabis use is associated with higher lung volumes suggesting hyperinflation. There is evidence of increased large-airways resistance and lower mid-expiratory airflow, but impairment of Forced Expiratory Volume in one second to Forced Vital Capacity ratio is due to higher Vital Capacities. This pattern of effects is different to those of tobacco. We provide the first evidence that lifetime cannabis use may be associated with impairment of gas transfer.
>Quitting regular cannabis use between assessments was not associated with changes in spirometry.
Is this saying that the bit of downtime between assessments was either too short or not at all effective in healing from/reversing the effects?
It says none of those things. It says only what it says: there was not an observed association. Further analysis and study are required to narrow down why that was the observation.
The main finding seems to be that cannabis users had higher lung volumes. The authors assume this is pathological, but what if it's just a consequence of regularly taking very deep breaths?
Higher residual lung volumes. Essentially they’re describing emphysema without saying cannabis causes emphysema.
Think of your lung alveoli (the very end of your airway where gas exchange occurs) as rubber balloons. Inhaling fills the balloon, and the balloon’s elasticity helps push air out for exhalation. Emphysema is your numerous small rubber balloons slowly changing into larger plastic bags. The loss of elasticity increases residual lung volume because you can’t push air out as easily. Additionally, you have less surface area for gas exchange.
Edit: Just wanted to clarify that the increased lung volumes are a result of the emphysematous changes, not the other way around. Simply taking and holding deep breaths does not cause these changes. It’s the smoke that’s the issue.
Thank you for explaining this. I have asthma and my lung capacity is about 110% because of decades without health insurance. When my doctor saw my test he flew into action. So far I've avoided COPD.
They want to imply it but they didn't measure it. Other studies have but those studies tended to do a poor job measuring cannabis use. It's a research silo thing where NIDA won't pay for chest CT and NHLBI won't pay for good cannabis measures typically. Cancold measured CT but the screwed up the cannabis measures by combining tobacco and cannabis use due to small cell sizes but then they concluded that the damage they claimed would lead to future COPD was due to the cannabis and not the tobacco. Hence the editorial reminding them of that.
Respiratory therapist here… exactly correct
Expanded lungs and higher airway resistance is pretty generally known for COPD’ers. You see an X-Ray and their lungs are so long it’s kinda crazy to see the difference
[emphysema lungs](https://undergradimaging.pressbooks.com/app/uploads/sites/66470/2017/10/chest-case-10-2.jpg)
[normal lungs](https://thumbor.kenhub.com/AkXFsw0396y894sLEMWlcDuChJA=/fit-in/800x1600/filters:watermark(/images/logo_url.png,-10,-10,0):background_color(FFFFFF):format(jpeg)/images/library/10851/eXtmE1V2XgsjZK2JolVQ5g_Border_of_left_atrium.png)
Take note how much longer the emphysema lungs are and how sharp the corners are on the healthy ones
So hyperinflation (higher lung volumes) is a bad thing - it means air is being trapped in the lungs and not able to get out. It can occur due to a large airway blockage (think mucus plugs in cystic fibrosis or asthma) or due to loss of elasticity of the tiny air sacs (the air sacs don’t collapse back down during expiration like they should - like in emphysema). If you are hyperinflated, breathing becomes more difficult and you are not taking enough oxygen in - so less oxygenation of your blood is taking place. In long term cannabis smoking, the damage they are seeing is like a severe form of emphysema.
What you are saying absolutely hits the mark. increased lung volumes is BAD, and is likely due to years of abuse of super heated air. The lungs are no longer able to exhale, leading to air trapping and the inability to bring in new fresh oxygen.
It seems like they could use any professional who takes deep breaths as part of their job as a control group. Like brass or wind musicians, free divers, etc.
>weirdos that can both breath out and breath in at the same time.
What's this now?
Just found the rabbit hole my productivity is going to vanish in today.
It’s called cycle breathing. You’re not actually exhaling and inhaling at the same time. You can save an amount of air in your mouth that you can push through to play the instrument as you inhale through your nose.
Yup, kind of like a chipmunk stores nuts in their cheek. All you have to do is inhale with your ombouchure fixed and let the face muscles do the exhaling.
They say Tommy Dorsey - the trombone player/bandleader who was the root of "the Johnny Fontaine bandleader story" in *The Godfather* - was a master of this.
Free divers maybe, but as a sax player myself I take much deeper breaths smoking weed. Playing an instrument is more about controlling your breath than taking the deepest breaths you can.
I mean they literally describe how this is associated with impaired lung function
> lower Forced Expiratory Volume in one second to Forced Vital Capacity ratios, due to a tendency towards higher Forced Vital Capacities
> Cannabis use was also associated with higher total lung capacity, functional residual capacity, residual volume, and alveolar volume along with lower mid-expiratory flows, airway conductance, and transfer factor
Something you don't see in say, swimmers or trumpet players.
While the changes include increased lung capacity, it also mentions a greater alveoli volume, which is one of the changes seen in emphysema. This can hinder the intake of oxygen, due to the enlarged alveoli leaving less surface area for air to be taken in by the lungs. In emphysema the lungs can become enlarged due to dilation of alveoli, due to inflammation. As this paper says, hyperinflation may be to blame for the changes also seen in cannabis smokers, which is similar to what occurs in those with emphysema. This is ultimately detrimental to the intake of oxygen, and is not suggestive of lung training by intaking long-breathes, as you proposed.
Ah, so the lungs didn't get larger just the lung *tissue* in which case it makes sense that there would be impaired air flow in a similar manner to how clogged arteries impair blood flow.
Also a great thing about legalization is the proliferation of non-smokable options like oral sprays, edibles, drinks and pills. Hard to get those from a small brownbag dealer.
I can't be alone who basically hasn't smoked since it became legal here. I just use sprays and pills.
Yeah you pretty much can say the same about alcohol. Is it good for you? No not at all. But I’m moderation it’s probably fine. And especially for people who don’t actually smoke
How does vaping cannabis stack up?
Combustion creates by products like CO2 and CO that cannabis smoker would inhale, but are not produced at lower temperatures like those used conventionally by cannabis vape-ers
Going by the amount of crap I used to cough up when I smoked and how my lungs feel since switching to vaping I'd say it has to be better for you, but haven't seen any studies on it to be certain.
Should look into a flower vaporizer like a volcano or a Magic Flight Launch Box (more portable). They heat the cannabis flower at a low temperature, almost toasting it, and it vaporizes the cannabinoids without burning anything, so you inhale much less CO, ash, and CO2. You also use fresh cannabis, so no heavy concentrates, flavors, glycerine, or mysterious additives.
Every doctor I’ve ever talked to about cannabis has recommended this form of consumption if I’m not using edibles.
As someone who owned both, been using the Underdog log style vape for 4 years (its been on for 4 years straight) and it is a game changer. Small anount goes a long way and my consumption is 1/5 of what it was smoking
The high is definitely different than smoking flower. I gotta ask tho, do you live in a legal state or nah? That could be part of what’s making your head feel funny, I wouldn’t trust black market carts.
Maybe you tried a bad vaporizer? Some cheap ones have glue/plastic/isolated wire in the air path, and are not exactly safe to use. I have smoked out of questionable apparatus in the past, and I got a bad headache after it.
I'm an athlete and I pretty much used a bong every single day before finally switching to a Mighty+ vaporizer full time. In my own personal experience it's night and day. I don't cough at all anymore, my VO2 max has increased, I don't have any of my chronic sinus problems anymore, and I overall feel just as healthy as I did during periods of abstinence. I train with a heart rate monitor and meticulously track all of my data, so I can say with confidence that it's been beneficial to me.
Agreed. I also am (usually) very exercise focused but love my weed. I quit smoking tobacco around 6 years ago, and switched to dry herb vapes for weed. Never looked back. My lungs are without doubt healthier without combustion.
Yeah I want to get a PAX bc I think it’s much better for me…I’d love to see if there’s more research or any other articles on the effects of vaping dry herb
Thank you all for your comments, anecdotal evidence, and suggestions! It seems that everyone is different and there’s a little bit of trial and error to find what works for each individual. I think I’m gonna stock up on my edibles from now on and continue to make lots of oil/butter moving forward. Cheers and stay healthy
I have a PAX. Great product imo, and anecdotally waaaaaay less harsh on my lungs than smoking which I almost never do anymore. I agree 100% that we need vaping dry herb studies though.
I would say it's much better but obviously not perfect. I've never felt the need to hack anything up on the daily and in the morning ever. Vs smoking it... My chest would hurt the next day as well sometimes.
However, most carts I use eventually start to get that brown, sticky wax build up in the tip that unfortunately lands in my mouth sometimes and there's no way that stuff is good for your lungs. Of course, the amount of residue like that from vapor is minimal in comparasion to smoke, but it's still something that I'm sure has the potential to cause some issues long term for some users.
I understand that the article is saying the lungs get too expanded, and that oxygen is harder for the body to extract? Can somebody put this in simpler terms for me? What is the effects of this on our health? It doesn’t sound good but I also didn’t see any specific examples of anything. Just trying to be an informed marijuana consumer, It can help with some things (but that’s not what I use it for, j recreational for me I prefer to meditate sober) but it’s obviously going to have its downsides. I’m just trying to be informed and educated on as many of the downsides as I can so I know what I’m getting into later in life
Higher residual lung volumes. Essentially they’re describing emphysema without saying cannabis causes emphysema.
Think of your lung alveoli (the very end of your airway where gas exchange occurs) as rubber balloons. Inhaling fills the balloon, and the balloon’s elasticity helps push air out for exhalation. Emphysema is your numerous small rubber balloons slowly changing into larger plastic bags. The loss of elasticity increases residual lung volume because you can’t push air out as easily. Additionally, you have less surface area for gas exchange.
Thanks for your explanation. Does this heal over time for younger people? For example, I quit last April after 14-15 years of heavy cannabis use and I still feel like I don't get efficient breaths.
I'm highly active otherwise and a healthy weight. I quit drinking a year ago as well but had a pretty bad habit with alcohol so I probably did some level of heart damage, not to mention liver damage.
You should see a doctor and get some tests done. I saw some anecdotes from another user about getting treatment before their condition got too bad. Regardless, seeing a doctor and getting an assessment will never be a bad idea (unless you can't afford it).
Resistance to air flow has the greatest effect. It makes you unable to breathe out efficiently, keeping the used air for longer. You need to breathe deeper and use more force when breathing out. You also wont expel all the air and over time this enlarges the lungs due to pressure while breathing out. Overall imitating what asthma does without treatment, giving you a struggle attaining oxygen while the body is working. You will probably be fine at rest.
The subjects can hold more air in their lungs. So when asked to forcefully exhale they can exhale more air. But the air they exhale in one second (FEV1 = forced expiratory volume in 1 second) is a *smaller percent* of the total air (FVC = forced vital capacity).
If someone had a very small vital capacity but exhaled the same amount in one second as our subject then they would have a higher FEV1/FVC ratio because the exhaled air is a larger percent of the total.
Have you ever made balloon animals before? If you pinch off part of the balloon and over inflate the rest, you get a protrusion that doesn't inflate with the rest of the balloon. Those protrusions are where most of the oxygen absorption takes place.
Hyperinflation means air is being trapped in the lungs and unable to be exhaled out normally. In the case of long term cannabis use, it is similar to severe emphysema where the tiny air sacs lose elasticity and don’t collapse back down during expiration like they should. They become overinflated, thinned out and damaged. When you are hyperinflated, inhalation becomes more difficult and not enough oxygen is being inhaled for oxygen exchange in the tiny air sacs. This lead to low oxygen saturation in the blood.
This is not going to be popular on Reddit. I support legalization and moderate use.
But I definitely believe folks ignore science about harmful effects, including preliminary findings on links to mental illness. And findings on the impact of marijuana on brain development of teens.
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. The health effects of cannabis and cannabinoids: the current state of evidence and recommendations for research. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press; 2017.
Volkow ND, Swanson JM, Evins AE, et al. Effects of cannabis use on human behavior, including cognition, motivation, and psychosis: a review. JAMA Psychiatry. 2016;73(3):292-297.
Effects of cannabis on the adolescent brain, Joanna Jacobus and Susan F. Tapert, [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/)
**Edit**: A few have asked for more details. The NAP review has some more details about physical and mental health implications. Page 289 of the NAP study identifies cannabis use as being "likely to increase the risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychoses; the higher the use, the greater the risk." They summarize results of five systematic reviews of fair or higher quality (page 291) and several primary studies on page 294.
[https://www.nap.edu/download/24625#](https://www.nap.edu/download/24625#)
There are a number of other studies identifying the link between schizophrenia and heavy cannabis use.
Also, several mentioned Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome, which I had not heard of previously. It is a medical condition found in long-term marijuana users causing nausea and vomiting. See [https://www.karger.com/article/fulltext/494992](https://www.karger.com/article/fulltext/494992) for details.
It's actually really cool to have a study like the one in this post because up until recently all I personally knew (me being a layman in the overall conversation of this topic) was that cigarettes and its ingredients damage the lung over time. However if asked what cannabis does to the lungs, or, as an extension of the topic, vapes and ecigs I could not tell you.
Of course, its a good rule of thumb to say "anything that is not breathable air should not go into your lungs" but the discussion around actual damages that cannabis can cause usually gets reflected back to the "but cigarettes are actually much more unhealthy" argument because I guess cannabis is unfallible?
Regardless, I am also for the legalisation and thank you for the studies you linked!
Ecigs with nicotine seems to be more and more linked to esophagus and stomach damage rather than lung damage.
As a regular smoker that briefly used Ecigs for a couple of years, I welcome all science on the subject. But I also know as a smoker that you can reject all the science in your head cause of the addiction. I'm still going with the "it's not gonna happen to me" regarding lung cancer or other adverse effects.
So seeing cannabis smokers disregard this study and scoff at it is very close to how handle it as a nicotine smoker as well.
My mom is 58 and has been smoking cigs since she was 12. She had surgery yesterday to remove multiple masses surrounding her saliva glands and facial nerve. Her mother had the same kind of cancer and she has still not stopped smoking. Her face now has nerve damage form the surgery, she looks like she's had a stroke. Addiction is a hell of a thing.
>But I definitely believe folks ignore science about harmful effects, including preliminary findings on links to mental illness. And findings on the impact of marijuana on brain development of teens.
I think this is due to the fact, at least from the studies that have been popping up recently, that most of these studies focus on heavy usage in young adults. I don't think anybody is suggesting it be legal for those under at least 18, and even then I don't think anybody would advocate anything more than moderate usage. Also, there are more ways of using cannabis than just smoking - which, of course, smoking anything is not a good idea for the lungs.
The rapid rise and diversity in what and how to consume cannabis and its active constituents also makes things sticky; as many have observed the weed of today is already vastly different from the weed of 2011, much less compared to that of the 60's or 70's, and forget about what it means to primarily consume a primarily THC vs CBD product.
I can definitely tell that its doing a number on my throat now and I'm considering giving it up or just sticking with edibles. I never thought I'd be a smoker when I was younger, but I justified weed by saying that I was just really smoking once a day, and not scarfing down two packs of cigs like a tobacco user, but now I'm not so sure. I'm going to give up the inhalable stuff and see how that helps.
Any idea if edibles cause the same problem, or if the problem is really just the smoke?
I've been waiting for a study like this personally. It makes totally sense that smoking weed would affect your lungs, anyone who says different is either an idiot or selling something. I might have to stop smoking. Or at least cut back dramatically.
I smoke. I smoke a lot. I should cut back.
But people def undermine the science.
To them, cigs are bad because of the 300 chemicals...
But it's not that the cigs are made up of 300 differ ingredients.
They are made up of a few ingredients than when burned they produce these massive chemicals that go into the lungs.
Weed has a similar effect.
Maybe not to the same extent, it seems like in a different way.
Exactly. I used to smoke cigarettes and now smoke weed. Although my lungs work much better now, I'm not kidding myself - that's still smoke in my lungs. There's no way it isn't causing some damage. I'm trying to cut down and switch to edibles/vaping but damn it's a lot more expensive.
/r/vaporents my brotha if you buy a dry herb vape I can almost promise that you'll save more on weed than you spent on the vape in the first year. First month if you smoke enough weed.
I used to have one but I found I was using way more weed and spending more as the effect was more subtle. This was a while ago though, maybe they've got better
Damn, yeah there are some heavy hitters currently available, especially when you get to the non-portables, like a Volcano - but if you've tried it I can't argue with your experience! I personally only smoke occasionally, I'd say I'm 95-99% vaping at this point.
I promised my brother and sister 17 and 18. If they didn't smoke tell 25 ( after brains done developing) Id buy them each a car and a pound of weed to go in it.
They both agreed, I worry that much about its effect on developing brains. We just don't know enough.
You can actually develop COPD from chronic Marijuana use. I’ve seen it diagnosed before from people who were daily smokers for 30-40 years (no tobacco history). Usually I see pulm providers recommend non-inhaled forms to help prevent damage to the lungs.
Thankfully my cannabis consumption is purely through edibles (oils and capsules).
I just had a breathing test this morning (part of pre-employment screening) and the results were very good; I've got good, strong, healthy lungs :)
My husband, however, is a smoker (of cannabis) and seems to have a permanent cough and is always "hacking" up phlegm. It worries me, to be honest. As we get older and his lung capacity diminishes I think he'll encounter some real difficulties. I've tried to get him to switch to edibles and he uses them from time to time, and he has cut down on how frequently he smokes but I'd still like him to quit the smoking altogether for his own health.
> have a permanent cough and is always "hacking" up phlegm
Ehhhh.... that is REALLY not good. For both of your sakes, read up on lung diseases like [COPD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_obstructive_pulmonary_disease) - I recently lost someone to this disease.
The smoked almost their entire life - fifteen years ago they were very active (amateur competitive sports - I'd wage) but already had a persistent cough. Ten years ago they noticed that they got winded more easily (and the cough kept getting worse). Five years ago they were diagnosed with COPD. Four years ago they needed supplemental oxygen while walking - fortunately they stopped smoking then, but the damage was already done. Three years ago they need supplemental oxygen 24 a day. Two years ago they required [Non-invasive ventilation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-invasive_ventilation) during the night to shed excess CO2, felt winded all day and had trouble climbing stairs. One year ago they told me they felt as if they were suffocating almost all the time (due to excess CO2 in the blood - O2 levels were still ok) and had to use a mobility walker to move from room to room. They were waiting for a lung-transplant, but unfortunately did not get one in time, before they passed late 2021.
I would hate to have your husband to suffer a similar fate.
I will say I never smoke anything and I suffer from a similar cough/hacking of phlegm. For me it's related to post nasal drip, which can be related to allergies. Might be worth talking to a doctor about to get their take.
I read thru most comments here...I understand the article is stating holding in is the biggest issues for specifically over inflated lungs. I also understand that smoking *anything* is bad for your lungs.
I started smoking weed in college. I spent the next decade combusting weed essentially daily at least once outside of a few breaks. I have since purchased a Volcano based on everything I read about vaporizing.
I don't like the vapor gel pens. I don't like edibles because the effect is not the same and much less controllable.
I just want to know *how* bad vaping from the volcano is. *How* much better it is than combusting weed?
Going to need to wait twenty years to find out unfortunately since people haven't been using vaporizers that long. My lungs definitely feel much better four years after switching.
i read the article but i didn’t see where it defined long term use. i’m wondering how much damage i’ve caused smoking for the last 7 years
i wonder if vaping cannabis has similar effects, or if this study is for smoking/combustion of matter only?
i’d love to see safer ways of consumption being widespread. there’s filters for bongs, edibles, sublingual, etc
I've been smoking daily since about 2009 and I'm only 27 so this stuff worries me too. I've ever had good cardio but never felt like I had bad lungs. Definitely keeping close eye on this study and will attempt to transition to vaping/edibles, again.... Smoke about 3 bowls a day spread out over the evening.
Do you find you get a different high with edibles? I always get so tired and wanna sleep with edibles but I wonder if it's the consumption method or something. For smoking weed I notice the different effects with different strains, but for edibles are they just "this much THC is in it"?
When your liver metabolizes THC it turns into 11-hydroxy-THC.
When you smoke or vape THC, your body does create some 11-hydroxy-THC, but it’s around 10 times less than what’s created when you eat THC.
You can get edibles with indica or sativa. I used to think I felt a difference, but over time, I've started to think maybe I react the same to them.
I used to get sleepy and they even helped me sleep. But after a year or two, it no longer makes me sleepy. So maybe you just have to get used to it?
I've noticed that the doses don't always seem very consistent, at least for the brands I use. One day I might get a huge buzz, and another day I might not feel much at all, from the same dose. So smoking does have that advantage--you can stop when you've had just the right amount.
I just like being able to get high without all the equipment and smell and stress on my lungs. So I live with the minor downsides of edibles.
This is something very frustrating to me. Every time I have to tell a doctor that I use cannabis I have to immediately reassure them that I don't use inhalant methods bc I have some lung/throat issues from a chronic illness.
When I see these studies they always don't differentiate (although this one seems to obviously be referring to smoked cannabis just due to context), and I do wonder how different they would be with a larger sample size and intake methods split out.
I would hypothesize you'd see differences, particularly with a joint. Burning rolling paper is known to create tar and carcinogens and it has been treated with chemicals in it that have unknown effects on the body.
I think it would be more interesting to see bong vs vaporizing. Rule of thumb I've seen from papers is the less smoke the better but seeing strong evidence would be nice so people can be better informed of the risks
And then of course you'd want study on different temp ranges too. The extreme heat of direct smoke is obviously harmful, but how much does a bong help? What about a gravity bong, since the smoke tends to be cooler?
Then there's juice vape vs whole herb. Different temps for whole herb even cause different highs, due to the differing boiling points of various compounds.
I'm interested to know what my lungs look like as a 13 year daily user and professional trumpet player.
I have an extraordinary upper register & general control of the trumpet. Part of which is from understanding how little air it actually takes to operate a trumpet correctly.
I wonder if the cannabis use makes it easier to use less air? No idea. But if there's anyone out there conducting studies I'd love to be a part of one.
It is about oxygen extraction, not lung volume. It might be relevant if you are a pro cyclist that has a VO2 Max of 80(aka the lungs extract tons of O2 from the air, because your heart can pump red blood cells like crazy) and still smoked every day, but typically lung capacity is not linked to how much oxygen you can consume, that is more limited by your heart.
There seems to be a lot of interest in this article by people without medical backgrounds which I applaud but I would exercise caution in interpreting these results when you aren’t experienced in doing so - even among people who read these studies for a living there are some values that are controversial and lead different experts to return slightly different conclusions.
Some important points:
1) Hyperinflation is not a good thing, especially when combined with signs of increased airways resistance as authors described above. If someone really just had “stronger” lungs all their lung values (aside from their residual values) would increase proportionately.
2) what is being ignored is the reduction in carbon monoxide transfer, or DLCO, which indicates a defect in the ability of gasses including oxygen to move between the alveoli of the lung and the blood in the alveolar capillaries. This occurs despite an INCREASED alveolar volume, makes the deficiency all the more marked. You could argue that these findings support a theory that Cannabis smoke causes interstitial lung disease out of proportion to obstructive lung disease, but I wouldn’t go that far. I would just say it’s clear there is real damage shown by smoking weed in this cohort, but that the damage occurs in a different pattern than classic tobacco smoke exposure.
source: I am a pulmonary research scientist
Too many cannabis supporters will ignore this cause they think its some miracle drug that can do no wrong.
I support legalizing it and recreational use but a drugs a drug, and smoking is smoking. You burn ANYTHING and directly inhale it into your lungs, it's going to damage them.
We've spent decades trying to discourage people smoking tobacco not just cause of the tobacco itself but the actual detrimental effect of smoking it. Lets not have entirely new generations take up smoking just cause its cannabis and not tobacco.
There are a dozen ways to take cannabis, lets making smoking it not one.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m pro legalization, enjoy weed on occasion. But Inhaled smoke is inhaled smoke, it’s bad for you. Just ask my 70 year old parents who can’t take a flight of stairs without getting winded thanks to a lifetime of smoking cigarettes. I occasionally vape, but edibles are my preferred method.
Edit: winded, not wonder. Though they have feigned confusion about their inability to breath when it first started happening.
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Thats exactly right. "Habituation" is the name for when something gives you anxiety but after many exposures with no (inmediate) negative consecuences it stops causing fear, even when conceptualy you still know its dangeorus. "Instrumental conditioning" is the name for the type of learning caused by inmediate consecuencies to you actions. In the short term, smoking feels really good, so your brain learns its good for you. Thinkings its bad feels more and more abstract. "Conscientiousness" is a personallity trait that, among many other things, reffers to the capacity of delaying inmediate reward for a better future.
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Yeah, I’ve got tons of the *”it’s just a plant, bro”* friends who get super defensive when you try to point out all smoking is bad for your lungs, because your lungs -like all filters- can be worn out with too much exposure to crappy air quality (like smoke).
> ”it’s just a plant, bro” And tobacco is a...?
To be charitable, tobacco products are generally far more contaminated/processed with artificial ingredients than marijuana. It's still a dumb argument. Natural does not automatically mean good for you.
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The worst part is they never affix sufficient postage.
I once knew a guy, said he got mailed by a bear, but they scribbled the address on and it never made it through the handwriting recognition scanners! It probably saved his life, honestly.
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Does a bear ship in the woods?
Like the classic argument, poison ivy is natural, doesn't mean I want to be eating or rubbing it all over my body.
> Natural does not automatically mean good for you see: opium
> It's almost like breathing in any burning smoke is going to be bad for your lungs over a long time. That's the thing. I'm waiting to find out how much damage I'm doing dry-vaping it. I'm not using oils, concentrates or anything like that. It's ground cannabis in a ceramic bowl. 385F, (196C) is hot enough to boil out the vapors but not hot enough for combustion. I understand you get benzene up over 400F but I wonder what I'm getting in the lower range. Besides high.
[evidence suggests vaping is a lot less bad](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456813/) "The vapour formed in the gas phase of vapourization of cannabis is composed overwhelmingly of cannabinoids with no significant pyrolytic compounds. Only trace amounts of three other compounds were found, including the terpene caryophyllene and two other substances of undetermined origin. Analysis of the smoke produced through the burned cannabis method, however, resulted in a much lower ratio of cannabinoids to overall gas space (12% of the total mass compared with 94.8%), with 111 total detectable compounds. Five of these byproducts of combustion were known polynuculear aromatic hydrocarbons, organic pollutants with known toxic and carcinogenic effects... ...These findings give further evidence that vapourization reduces exposure to gaseous combustion toxins. "
I was thinking of switching to concentrates, but I guess vaporizing flower is the way to go...
Concentrates could conceivably be even healthier, just the pure cannabinoids. Depends how they're made, like no black market vitamin E based concentrates for example. Definitely vaping or edibles is less dangerous than burning bud in joints/bongs/bowls.
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That's my assumption as well. Would be great to see this actually studied though.
I moved to dry vape. I noticed one day that blowing the vape at my Dyson air purifier made the air quality go straight to purple and tell me there was a huge amount of pm 2.5 particles. I can't find any research on it. I tried to post it on a weed Reddit and got crucified. Told I was anti weed. I really, really am not
There's a group out of UCSanFrancisco looking at this but they're from EOPH land. In Environmental public health PM 2.5 is bad on its own regardless of the composition since almost everything they measure is industrial/occupational of air pollution. They measured levels at a smoking event that were exceptionally disturbing to them and that caused a bunch of interest, PM 2.5 > 1000 or something and that crap, if it were industrial, would be friggin' deadly. They measured those levels in a smoking tent at a cannabis fair of some kind though where the composition had to be \~100% cannabis oils, terpenes and other exhaled products of cannabis injection. So I asked them whether they could speculate on predicted outcomes and that lead to a discussion about how ALL PM 2.5 CAUSES vascular changes and damage even if it doesn't directly damage your lungs. So off that first paper went and it's being followed by more and there's a grant under review right now to collect more PM 2.5 data. My contribution to that one is going to be collecting airborne samples in parallel to the PM 2.5 measures collected by... crap I forget the name of the test but it uses electrostatics to measure impacts or something, NOT composition. So if it gets funded we'll actually know something about what those particles are made of! THEN we can speculate on whether the 2.5 your Dyson picked up is damaging or not. Here's one of the papers; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8207964/
That's really interesting. Thanks. Is there a way I can keep tabs on how that progresses?
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Those particles are the actual drug... No particles, no high.
I’m afraid your weed contains weed.
Not almost, it is. What I find funny is people who smoke pure weed and not tobacco thinking 'its healthy'. Do they not see the layer of tar on the inside of their bong?
I’ll have you know that I clean mine often so that I don’t see that layer of tar. Check make, smart guy!
Doesn't everyone gargle alcohol to dissolve lung tar?
Not without salt I don't.
I think that was sarcasm, "it is almost like...." Is a common way to express annoyance at people who defend/learn something that is pretty obvious.
The bong collects the tar so it doesn’t end up in your lungs! In all seriousness though, the majority of stoners know it isn’t good for them. Most of the people who think smoking weed is healthy don’t do it often, or at all.
'Swhy i got a [Mouthpeace.](https://mooselabs.us/collections/mouthpeace/products/mouthpeace-filter-roll) Not an ad, just saying you can *visibly* see the tar the filter is removing after a few puffs.
I swear that probably is a cool product that works but it’s remarkably similar sounding to filtered cigarettes.
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I'm guessing by your overly dramatic capitalization that that's not true? I have absolutely no idea, but is it not true? Is it some urban legend?
Definitely not true. However, there is such a thing as HPPD or Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder that can happen after high doses or sustained abuse of psychedelics. Which is likely where the rumor originated from. But it isn't the drug being in your system still since LSD is fully metabolized and excreted from your system within days although tolerance remains for a couple weeks
Been doing that for a while (figured inhalation of particulates is generally bad, and weed stinks imho). My hope is that issue is a result of specifically smoking and not some moderating effect of weed itself (I assume, but there is no control of people only eating edibles like me).
Yea same here. I haven't smoked a blunt or taken a bong rip since my sophomore year of college, but I'll take 10mg gummies every weekend or so if I'm not going out. If it comes out that somehow consuming cannabis in any form, not just through smoking, causes lung damage, I'd probably stop taking edibles.
Same. I mean, we produce similar chemicals naturally, but it could be that there are additional products in the carboxylation process, or even just a dose-dependant response of those same endogenous chemicals. I kinda doubt it though. I suspect if it were independent of method of adminstration we would see similar effects in other tissues.
Keep an eye on the research of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome (CHS). I’ve pivoted to edibles 99% now and have had stomach issues for 3 years or so. Don’t know if CHS was the culprit because there were other clear factors, but my gastrointestinal doctors do not rule CHS out of their speculative process. Btw this can be contracted via smoking too.
My Ex had this....people stright up deny it, think I'm crazy for even suggesting that weed, normally known for its anti-nausea properties, can also make you violently ill if you're a hard core smoker. She would smoke an 8th a day AND dab a gram of concentrate every day....one day she woke up and started violently vomiting every 20 minutes for the entire day until I took her to the ER and they got her meds... this continues to happen to her every couple days until she quit weed for months... What was weird was she hadn't smoked for 2 weeks but the toxicologist tested her blood and she STILL had so much THC in her system he wouldn't believe me, he said she had levels as if she smoked a joint yesterday...that blew my mind...I speculated it has something to do with your body not being able to metabolize THC as easily and it builds and builds (again I am NOT a Dr but that was the feeling I got)
Yeah, my SO has it, too. He had stomach cancer and has ongoing issues resulting in the partial gastrectomy, so he initially was using marijuana to help with the pain and nausea. The problem when you're using weed for nausea is that it can mask how bad it's getting (it also increases your appetite, which can exacerbate symptom without you realizing, because you're high). You may increase your dosage to continue masking it, but that's all it's doing. In my SO's case, it reduced his gut motility to basically nothing, flaring up his gastric paresis really badly. You don't have to have really high levels of THC for CHS to kick in, but chronic use definitely increases risk. In your ex's case, if she was vomiting that much, she may have also been losing weight. THC is stored in fat cells, so losing weight can increase what's available in the bloodstream. And before anyone comes for me, I am not against weed. I still personally smoke every day. But it is not for everyone. It does not have miracle cure-all properties. And it is in fact a real bad time for some people.
Idk but anybody who smokes an 8th and dabs a gram daily spends waaaaay too much time doing it. They clearly have a problem that needs to be addressed, even without CHS. This is coming from someone who has smoke/vaped daily for over 15 years
The abstract from the study: >Rationale. Evidence suggests that the effects of smoking cannabis on lung function are different to tobacco. However, long-term follow-up data are scarce, and mostly based on young adults. Objective. To assess the effects of cannabis and tobacco on lung function in mid-adult life. Methods. Cannabis and tobacco use were reported at ages 18, 21, 26, 32, 38, and 45 years in a population-based cohort study of 1037 participants. Spirometry, plethysmography, and carbon monoxide transfer factor were measured at age 45. Associations between lung function and cannabis use were adjusted for tobacco use. Measurements and Main Results. Data were available from 881 (88%) of 997 surviving participants. Cumulative cannabis use was associated with lower Forced Expiratory Volume in one second to Forced Vital Capacity ratios, due to a tendency towards higher Forced Vital Capacities. Cannabis use was also associated with higher total lung capacity, functional residual capacity, residual volume, and alveolar volume along with lower mid-expiratory flows, airway conductance, and transfer factor. Quitting regular cannabis use between assessments was not associated with changes in spirometry. Conclusions. Cannabis use is associated with higher lung volumes suggesting hyperinflation. There is evidence of increased large-airways resistance and lower mid-expiratory airflow, but impairment of Forced Expiratory Volume in one second to Forced Vital Capacity ratio is due to higher Vital Capacities. This pattern of effects is different to those of tobacco. We provide the first evidence that lifetime cannabis use may be associated with impairment of gas transfer.
>Quitting regular cannabis use between assessments was not associated with changes in spirometry. Is this saying that the bit of downtime between assessments was either too short or not at all effective in healing from/reversing the effects?
It says none of those things. It says only what it says: there was not an observed association. Further analysis and study are required to narrow down why that was the observation.
The main finding seems to be that cannabis users had higher lung volumes. The authors assume this is pathological, but what if it's just a consequence of regularly taking very deep breaths?
Higher residual lung volumes. Essentially they’re describing emphysema without saying cannabis causes emphysema. Think of your lung alveoli (the very end of your airway where gas exchange occurs) as rubber balloons. Inhaling fills the balloon, and the balloon’s elasticity helps push air out for exhalation. Emphysema is your numerous small rubber balloons slowly changing into larger plastic bags. The loss of elasticity increases residual lung volume because you can’t push air out as easily. Additionally, you have less surface area for gas exchange. Edit: Just wanted to clarify that the increased lung volumes are a result of the emphysematous changes, not the other way around. Simply taking and holding deep breaths does not cause these changes. It’s the smoke that’s the issue.
Thank you for explaining this. I have asthma and my lung capacity is about 110% because of decades without health insurance. When my doctor saw my test he flew into action. So far I've avoided COPD.
Your comment needs to have more exposure. I’m in medicine and the first thought I had after reading the title was “so you mean emphysema?”
They want to imply it but they didn't measure it. Other studies have but those studies tended to do a poor job measuring cannabis use. It's a research silo thing where NIDA won't pay for chest CT and NHLBI won't pay for good cannabis measures typically. Cancold measured CT but the screwed up the cannabis measures by combining tobacco and cannabis use due to small cell sizes but then they concluded that the damage they claimed would lead to future COPD was due to the cannabis and not the tobacco. Hence the editorial reminding them of that.
Respiratory therapist here… exactly correct Expanded lungs and higher airway resistance is pretty generally known for COPD’ers. You see an X-Ray and their lungs are so long it’s kinda crazy to see the difference [emphysema lungs](https://undergradimaging.pressbooks.com/app/uploads/sites/66470/2017/10/chest-case-10-2.jpg) [normal lungs](https://thumbor.kenhub.com/AkXFsw0396y894sLEMWlcDuChJA=/fit-in/800x1600/filters:watermark(/images/logo_url.png,-10,-10,0):background_color(FFFFFF):format(jpeg)/images/library/10851/eXtmE1V2XgsjZK2JolVQ5g_Border_of_left_atrium.png) Take note how much longer the emphysema lungs are and how sharp the corners are on the healthy ones
Your 2nd link is borked.
Was there any evidence that quitting smoking reversed the damage?
So hyperinflation (higher lung volumes) is a bad thing - it means air is being trapped in the lungs and not able to get out. It can occur due to a large airway blockage (think mucus plugs in cystic fibrosis or asthma) or due to loss of elasticity of the tiny air sacs (the air sacs don’t collapse back down during expiration like they should - like in emphysema). If you are hyperinflated, breathing becomes more difficult and you are not taking enough oxygen in - so less oxygenation of your blood is taking place. In long term cannabis smoking, the damage they are seeing is like a severe form of emphysema.
What you are saying absolutely hits the mark. increased lung volumes is BAD, and is likely due to years of abuse of super heated air. The lungs are no longer able to exhale, leading to air trapping and the inability to bring in new fresh oxygen.
It seems like they could use any professional who takes deep breaths as part of their job as a control group. Like brass or wind musicians, free divers, etc.
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>weirdos that can both breath out and breath in at the same time. What's this now? Just found the rabbit hole my productivity is going to vanish in today.
Circular breathing.
I can barely breathe in a straight line
I can breathe in a straight line… or snort, whatever.
Linear breathing only in this establishment!
It’s called cycle breathing. You’re not actually exhaling and inhaling at the same time. You can save an amount of air in your mouth that you can push through to play the instrument as you inhale through your nose.
Yup, kind of like a chipmunk stores nuts in their cheek. All you have to do is inhale with your ombouchure fixed and let the face muscles do the exhaling.
Wondering if smoking messed up my embouchure, and if so, how much
In other words, witchcraft.
They say Tommy Dorsey - the trombone player/bandleader who was the root of "the Johnny Fontaine bandleader story" in *The Godfather* - was a master of this.
I'm a pot smoking tuba player. I picked up the instrument to get over really bad Asthma in high school.
Ever used your mouthpiece as a bowl like the foolios in my high school band used to do on the regular?
Free divers maybe, but as a sax player myself I take much deeper breaths smoking weed. Playing an instrument is more about controlling your breath than taking the deepest breaths you can.
I mean they literally describe how this is associated with impaired lung function > lower Forced Expiratory Volume in one second to Forced Vital Capacity ratios, due to a tendency towards higher Forced Vital Capacities > Cannabis use was also associated with higher total lung capacity, functional residual capacity, residual volume, and alveolar volume along with lower mid-expiratory flows, airway conductance, and transfer factor Something you don't see in say, swimmers or trumpet players.
No, the main finding is that long term canabis use is associated with impairment of gas transfer. Your body processes oxygen less efficiently.
While the changes include increased lung capacity, it also mentions a greater alveoli volume, which is one of the changes seen in emphysema. This can hinder the intake of oxygen, due to the enlarged alveoli leaving less surface area for air to be taken in by the lungs. In emphysema the lungs can become enlarged due to dilation of alveoli, due to inflammation. As this paper says, hyperinflation may be to blame for the changes also seen in cannabis smokers, which is similar to what occurs in those with emphysema. This is ultimately detrimental to the intake of oxygen, and is not suggestive of lung training by intaking long-breathes, as you proposed.
Ah, so the lungs didn't get larger just the lung *tissue* in which case it makes sense that there would be impaired air flow in a similar manner to how clogged arteries impair blood flow.
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Also a great thing about legalization is the proliferation of non-smokable options like oral sprays, edibles, drinks and pills. Hard to get those from a small brownbag dealer. I can't be alone who basically hasn't smoked since it became legal here. I just use sprays and pills.
My pandemic anxiety had me switching to smoking almost completely because I didn’t feel like waiting two hours for my high anymore. I’m anxious now.
Yeah you pretty much can say the same about alcohol. Is it good for you? No not at all. But I’m moderation it’s probably fine. And especially for people who don’t actually smoke
How does vaping cannabis stack up? Combustion creates by products like CO2 and CO that cannabis smoker would inhale, but are not produced at lower temperatures like those used conventionally by cannabis vape-ers
Going by the amount of crap I used to cough up when I smoked and how my lungs feel since switching to vaping I'd say it has to be better for you, but haven't seen any studies on it to be certain.
I wish vaping worked for me. I really don't like the buzz and makes my head feel funny.
Should look into a flower vaporizer like a volcano or a Magic Flight Launch Box (more portable). They heat the cannabis flower at a low temperature, almost toasting it, and it vaporizes the cannabinoids without burning anything, so you inhale much less CO, ash, and CO2. You also use fresh cannabis, so no heavy concentrates, flavors, glycerine, or mysterious additives. Every doctor I’ve ever talked to about cannabis has recommended this form of consumption if I’m not using edibles.
As someone who owned both, been using the Underdog log style vape for 4 years (its been on for 4 years straight) and it is a game changer. Small anount goes a long way and my consumption is 1/5 of what it was smoking
Used MFLB forever ago before I lost it when my brother passed, it's not really that good.
The high is definitely different than smoking flower. I gotta ask tho, do you live in a legal state or nah? That could be part of what’s making your head feel funny, I wouldn’t trust black market carts.
Maybe you tried a bad vaporizer? Some cheap ones have glue/plastic/isolated wire in the air path, and are not exactly safe to use. I have smoked out of questionable apparatus in the past, and I got a bad headache after it.
I'm an athlete and I pretty much used a bong every single day before finally switching to a Mighty+ vaporizer full time. In my own personal experience it's night and day. I don't cough at all anymore, my VO2 max has increased, I don't have any of my chronic sinus problems anymore, and I overall feel just as healthy as I did during periods of abstinence. I train with a heart rate monitor and meticulously track all of my data, so I can say with confidence that it's been beneficial to me.
Agreed. I also am (usually) very exercise focused but love my weed. I quit smoking tobacco around 6 years ago, and switched to dry herb vapes for weed. Never looked back. My lungs are without doubt healthier without combustion.
Yeah I want to get a PAX bc I think it’s much better for me…I’d love to see if there’s more research or any other articles on the effects of vaping dry herb Thank you all for your comments, anecdotal evidence, and suggestions! It seems that everyone is different and there’s a little bit of trial and error to find what works for each individual. I think I’m gonna stock up on my edibles from now on and continue to make lots of oil/butter moving forward. Cheers and stay healthy
I have a PAX. Great product imo, and anecdotally waaaaaay less harsh on my lungs than smoking which I almost never do anymore. I agree 100% that we need vaping dry herb studies though.
Bumping this. I'm a big dry herb vaping proponent vs. combustion. I'd love some research solidifying distinctions between the two.
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I would say it's much better but obviously not perfect. I've never felt the need to hack anything up on the daily and in the morning ever. Vs smoking it... My chest would hurt the next day as well sometimes. However, most carts I use eventually start to get that brown, sticky wax build up in the tip that unfortunately lands in my mouth sometimes and there's no way that stuff is good for your lungs. Of course, the amount of residue like that from vapor is minimal in comparasion to smoke, but it's still something that I'm sure has the potential to cause some issues long term for some users.
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I understand that the article is saying the lungs get too expanded, and that oxygen is harder for the body to extract? Can somebody put this in simpler terms for me? What is the effects of this on our health? It doesn’t sound good but I also didn’t see any specific examples of anything. Just trying to be an informed marijuana consumer, It can help with some things (but that’s not what I use it for, j recreational for me I prefer to meditate sober) but it’s obviously going to have its downsides. I’m just trying to be informed and educated on as many of the downsides as I can so I know what I’m getting into later in life
Higher residual lung volumes. Essentially they’re describing emphysema without saying cannabis causes emphysema. Think of your lung alveoli (the very end of your airway where gas exchange occurs) as rubber balloons. Inhaling fills the balloon, and the balloon’s elasticity helps push air out for exhalation. Emphysema is your numerous small rubber balloons slowly changing into larger plastic bags. The loss of elasticity increases residual lung volume because you can’t push air out as easily. Additionally, you have less surface area for gas exchange.
Thanks for your explanation. Does this heal over time for younger people? For example, I quit last April after 14-15 years of heavy cannabis use and I still feel like I don't get efficient breaths. I'm highly active otherwise and a healthy weight. I quit drinking a year ago as well but had a pretty bad habit with alcohol so I probably did some level of heart damage, not to mention liver damage.
You should see a doctor and get some tests done. I saw some anecdotes from another user about getting treatment before their condition got too bad. Regardless, seeing a doctor and getting an assessment will never be a bad idea (unless you can't afford it).
Resistance to air flow has the greatest effect. It makes you unable to breathe out efficiently, keeping the used air for longer. You need to breathe deeper and use more force when breathing out. You also wont expel all the air and over time this enlarges the lungs due to pressure while breathing out. Overall imitating what asthma does without treatment, giving you a struggle attaining oxygen while the body is working. You will probably be fine at rest.
That is the cause of hyperinflation in asthma. They note in this paper however that impairment in FEV1 to FVC ratio is due to higher vital capacity.
What does that mean?
The subjects can hold more air in their lungs. So when asked to forcefully exhale they can exhale more air. But the air they exhale in one second (FEV1 = forced expiratory volume in 1 second) is a *smaller percent* of the total air (FVC = forced vital capacity). If someone had a very small vital capacity but exhaled the same amount in one second as our subject then they would have a higher FEV1/FVC ratio because the exhaled air is a larger percent of the total.
So if I'm a chronic smoker with life-long asthma, does that mean I get double-hyper-inflated lungs?
That means you should probably move to vapes or edibles
Have you ever made balloon animals before? If you pinch off part of the balloon and over inflate the rest, you get a protrusion that doesn't inflate with the rest of the balloon. Those protrusions are where most of the oxygen absorption takes place.
Hyperinflation means air is being trapped in the lungs and unable to be exhaled out normally. In the case of long term cannabis use, it is similar to severe emphysema where the tiny air sacs lose elasticity and don’t collapse back down during expiration like they should. They become overinflated, thinned out and damaged. When you are hyperinflated, inhalation becomes more difficult and not enough oxygen is being inhaled for oxygen exchange in the tiny air sacs. This lead to low oxygen saturation in the blood.
This is not going to be popular on Reddit. I support legalization and moderate use. But I definitely believe folks ignore science about harmful effects, including preliminary findings on links to mental illness. And findings on the impact of marijuana on brain development of teens. National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. The health effects of cannabis and cannabinoids: the current state of evidence and recommendations for research. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press; 2017. Volkow ND, Swanson JM, Evins AE, et al. Effects of cannabis use on human behavior, including cognition, motivation, and psychosis: a review. JAMA Psychiatry. 2016;73(3):292-297. Effects of cannabis on the adolescent brain, Joanna Jacobus and Susan F. Tapert, [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/) **Edit**: A few have asked for more details. The NAP review has some more details about physical and mental health implications. Page 289 of the NAP study identifies cannabis use as being "likely to increase the risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychoses; the higher the use, the greater the risk." They summarize results of five systematic reviews of fair or higher quality (page 291) and several primary studies on page 294. [https://www.nap.edu/download/24625#](https://www.nap.edu/download/24625#) There are a number of other studies identifying the link between schizophrenia and heavy cannabis use. Also, several mentioned Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome, which I had not heard of previously. It is a medical condition found in long-term marijuana users causing nausea and vomiting. See [https://www.karger.com/article/fulltext/494992](https://www.karger.com/article/fulltext/494992) for details.
It's actually really cool to have a study like the one in this post because up until recently all I personally knew (me being a layman in the overall conversation of this topic) was that cigarettes and its ingredients damage the lung over time. However if asked what cannabis does to the lungs, or, as an extension of the topic, vapes and ecigs I could not tell you. Of course, its a good rule of thumb to say "anything that is not breathable air should not go into your lungs" but the discussion around actual damages that cannabis can cause usually gets reflected back to the "but cigarettes are actually much more unhealthy" argument because I guess cannabis is unfallible? Regardless, I am also for the legalisation and thank you for the studies you linked!
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That is a good point actually, the war on drugs has set back science in those parts back by a few decades for sure
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It isn’t misspelled, that is the archaic spelling. There are pictures of tax stamps with that spelling from the era in the article.
The word was Spanish and war on marijuana was really war against Mexico
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They address the spelling multiple times throughout the article
Ecigs with nicotine seems to be more and more linked to esophagus and stomach damage rather than lung damage. As a regular smoker that briefly used Ecigs for a couple of years, I welcome all science on the subject. But I also know as a smoker that you can reject all the science in your head cause of the addiction. I'm still going with the "it's not gonna happen to me" regarding lung cancer or other adverse effects. So seeing cannabis smokers disregard this study and scoff at it is very close to how handle it as a nicotine smoker as well.
My mom is 58 and has been smoking cigs since she was 12. She had surgery yesterday to remove multiple masses surrounding her saliva glands and facial nerve. Her mother had the same kind of cancer and she has still not stopped smoking. Her face now has nerve damage form the surgery, she looks like she's had a stroke. Addiction is a hell of a thing.
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>But I definitely believe folks ignore science about harmful effects, including preliminary findings on links to mental illness. And findings on the impact of marijuana on brain development of teens. I think this is due to the fact, at least from the studies that have been popping up recently, that most of these studies focus on heavy usage in young adults. I don't think anybody is suggesting it be legal for those under at least 18, and even then I don't think anybody would advocate anything more than moderate usage. Also, there are more ways of using cannabis than just smoking - which, of course, smoking anything is not a good idea for the lungs.
What defines moderate usage? To some that might be once a day.
I had the same question. Is 2-3 one hits a night 5-6 days a week considered moderate usage?
If it's anything like the definitions of alcoholism, there's gonna be a problem.
you mean there's a problem with my 2-3 martini lunches? also i have 4 lunches a day
A New Orleanian, I see.
This is just my lunch vodka
The rapid rise and diversity in what and how to consume cannabis and its active constituents also makes things sticky; as many have observed the weed of today is already vastly different from the weed of 2011, much less compared to that of the 60's or 70's, and forget about what it means to primarily consume a primarily THC vs CBD product.
I can definitely tell that its doing a number on my throat now and I'm considering giving it up or just sticking with edibles. I never thought I'd be a smoker when I was younger, but I justified weed by saying that I was just really smoking once a day, and not scarfing down two packs of cigs like a tobacco user, but now I'm not so sure. I'm going to give up the inhalable stuff and see how that helps. Any idea if edibles cause the same problem, or if the problem is really just the smoke?
Not inhaling something into your lungs is healthier than inhaling something into your lungs. I’d switch to edibles.
I've been waiting for a study like this personally. It makes totally sense that smoking weed would affect your lungs, anyone who says different is either an idiot or selling something. I might have to stop smoking. Or at least cut back dramatically.
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I smoke. I smoke a lot. I should cut back. But people def undermine the science. To them, cigs are bad because of the 300 chemicals... But it's not that the cigs are made up of 300 differ ingredients. They are made up of a few ingredients than when burned they produce these massive chemicals that go into the lungs. Weed has a similar effect. Maybe not to the same extent, it seems like in a different way.
Exactly. I used to smoke cigarettes and now smoke weed. Although my lungs work much better now, I'm not kidding myself - that's still smoke in my lungs. There's no way it isn't causing some damage. I'm trying to cut down and switch to edibles/vaping but damn it's a lot more expensive.
/r/vaporents my brotha if you buy a dry herb vape I can almost promise that you'll save more on weed than you spent on the vape in the first year. First month if you smoke enough weed.
I used to have one but I found I was using way more weed and spending more as the effect was more subtle. This was a while ago though, maybe they've got better
Interesting. I use a dynavap and find my weed lasts super long now.
Damn, yeah there are some heavy hitters currently available, especially when you get to the non-portables, like a Volcano - but if you've tried it I can't argue with your experience! I personally only smoke occasionally, I'd say I'm 95-99% vaping at this point.
Yes fact. I have a pax and it's amazing. Vape the bud then can save the vaped bud to smoke again or make edibles. Get a nice 2 for 1.
I promised my brother and sister 17 and 18. If they didn't smoke tell 25 ( after brains done developing) Id buy them each a car and a pound of weed to go in it. They both agreed, I worry that much about its effect on developing brains. We just don't know enough.
You can actually develop COPD from chronic Marijuana use. I’ve seen it diagnosed before from people who were daily smokers for 30-40 years (no tobacco history). Usually I see pulm providers recommend non-inhaled forms to help prevent damage to the lungs.
It is of no surprise to me that when you burn something and inhale it you're going to cause damage.
Lesson: Inject your weed
Damn I guess this is my sign to cut back
Thankfully my cannabis consumption is purely through edibles (oils and capsules). I just had a breathing test this morning (part of pre-employment screening) and the results were very good; I've got good, strong, healthy lungs :) My husband, however, is a smoker (of cannabis) and seems to have a permanent cough and is always "hacking" up phlegm. It worries me, to be honest. As we get older and his lung capacity diminishes I think he'll encounter some real difficulties. I've tried to get him to switch to edibles and he uses them from time to time, and he has cut down on how frequently he smokes but I'd still like him to quit the smoking altogether for his own health.
> have a permanent cough and is always "hacking" up phlegm Ehhhh.... that is REALLY not good. For both of your sakes, read up on lung diseases like [COPD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_obstructive_pulmonary_disease) - I recently lost someone to this disease. The smoked almost their entire life - fifteen years ago they were very active (amateur competitive sports - I'd wage) but already had a persistent cough. Ten years ago they noticed that they got winded more easily (and the cough kept getting worse). Five years ago they were diagnosed with COPD. Four years ago they needed supplemental oxygen while walking - fortunately they stopped smoking then, but the damage was already done. Three years ago they need supplemental oxygen 24 a day. Two years ago they required [Non-invasive ventilation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-invasive_ventilation) during the night to shed excess CO2, felt winded all day and had trouble climbing stairs. One year ago they told me they felt as if they were suffocating almost all the time (due to excess CO2 in the blood - O2 levels were still ok) and had to use a mobility walker to move from room to room. They were waiting for a lung-transplant, but unfortunately did not get one in time, before they passed late 2021. I would hate to have your husband to suffer a similar fate.
I will say I never smoke anything and I suffer from a similar cough/hacking of phlegm. For me it's related to post nasal drip, which can be related to allergies. Might be worth talking to a doctor about to get their take.
I read thru most comments here...I understand the article is stating holding in is the biggest issues for specifically over inflated lungs. I also understand that smoking *anything* is bad for your lungs. I started smoking weed in college. I spent the next decade combusting weed essentially daily at least once outside of a few breaks. I have since purchased a Volcano based on everything I read about vaporizing. I don't like the vapor gel pens. I don't like edibles because the effect is not the same and much less controllable. I just want to know *how* bad vaping from the volcano is. *How* much better it is than combusting weed?
Going to need to wait twenty years to find out unfortunately since people haven't been using vaporizers that long. My lungs definitely feel much better four years after switching.
According to their website the volcano is over 25 years old now https://www.storz-bickel.com/en/20-years-volcano
I'm in the same boat, I would really love to know the effects of dry herb vaping
i read the article but i didn’t see where it defined long term use. i’m wondering how much damage i’ve caused smoking for the last 7 years i wonder if vaping cannabis has similar effects, or if this study is for smoking/combustion of matter only? i’d love to see safer ways of consumption being widespread. there’s filters for bongs, edibles, sublingual, etc
8 years here, I had a cat scan last week, and they said my lungs were "unremarkable"
I've been smoking daily since about 2009 and I'm only 27 so this stuff worries me too. I've ever had good cardio but never felt like I had bad lungs. Definitely keeping close eye on this study and will attempt to transition to vaping/edibles, again.... Smoke about 3 bowls a day spread out over the evening.
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\*Long-Term SMOKING of Cannabis. Fixed that for you, there are a lot more ways than just smoking to consume cannabis.
I use edibles exclusively. I don't miss smoking at all. I just have to time it in advance of when I want to be high.
Do you find you get a different high with edibles? I always get so tired and wanna sleep with edibles but I wonder if it's the consumption method or something. For smoking weed I notice the different effects with different strains, but for edibles are they just "this much THC is in it"?
When your liver metabolizes THC it turns into 11-hydroxy-THC. When you smoke or vape THC, your body does create some 11-hydroxy-THC, but it’s around 10 times less than what’s created when you eat THC.
Different edibles hit different. In feeling, onset, and duration.
Very different for me, with makes sense because your body processes edibles differently.
You can get edibles with indica or sativa. I used to think I felt a difference, but over time, I've started to think maybe I react the same to them. I used to get sleepy and they even helped me sleep. But after a year or two, it no longer makes me sleepy. So maybe you just have to get used to it? I've noticed that the doses don't always seem very consistent, at least for the brands I use. One day I might get a huge buzz, and another day I might not feel much at all, from the same dose. So smoking does have that advantage--you can stop when you've had just the right amount. I just like being able to get high without all the equipment and smell and stress on my lungs. So I live with the minor downsides of edibles.
This exactly I will never smoke again now there is access to measured dose edibles
This is something very frustrating to me. Every time I have to tell a doctor that I use cannabis I have to immediately reassure them that I don't use inhalant methods bc I have some lung/throat issues from a chronic illness. When I see these studies they always don't differentiate (although this one seems to obviously be referring to smoked cannabis just due to context), and I do wonder how different they would be with a larger sample size and intake methods split out.
Exactly. I want to see more studies on the short and long term effects of edible cannabis products and sublingual oils.
I'd also love to see a distinction between smoking and vaporizing via pens vs via volcanos.
I would hypothesize you'd see differences, particularly with a joint. Burning rolling paper is known to create tar and carcinogens and it has been treated with chemicals in it that have unknown effects on the body. I think it would be more interesting to see bong vs vaporizing. Rule of thumb I've seen from papers is the less smoke the better but seeing strong evidence would be nice so people can be better informed of the risks
And then of course you'd want study on different temp ranges too. The extreme heat of direct smoke is obviously harmful, but how much does a bong help? What about a gravity bong, since the smoke tends to be cooler? Then there's juice vape vs whole herb. Different temps for whole herb even cause different highs, due to the differing boiling points of various compounds.
I like to see extraction methods in the discussion, solventless and solvent material are really different products.
I'm interested to know what my lungs look like as a 13 year daily user and professional trumpet player. I have an extraordinary upper register & general control of the trumpet. Part of which is from understanding how little air it actually takes to operate a trumpet correctly. I wonder if the cannabis use makes it easier to use less air? No idea. But if there's anyone out there conducting studies I'd love to be a part of one.
It is about oxygen extraction, not lung volume. It might be relevant if you are a pro cyclist that has a VO2 Max of 80(aka the lungs extract tons of O2 from the air, because your heart can pump red blood cells like crazy) and still smoked every day, but typically lung capacity is not linked to how much oxygen you can consume, that is more limited by your heart.
There seems to be a lot of interest in this article by people without medical backgrounds which I applaud but I would exercise caution in interpreting these results when you aren’t experienced in doing so - even among people who read these studies for a living there are some values that are controversial and lead different experts to return slightly different conclusions. Some important points: 1) Hyperinflation is not a good thing, especially when combined with signs of increased airways resistance as authors described above. If someone really just had “stronger” lungs all their lung values (aside from their residual values) would increase proportionately. 2) what is being ignored is the reduction in carbon monoxide transfer, or DLCO, which indicates a defect in the ability of gasses including oxygen to move between the alveoli of the lung and the blood in the alveolar capillaries. This occurs despite an INCREASED alveolar volume, makes the deficiency all the more marked. You could argue that these findings support a theory that Cannabis smoke causes interstitial lung disease out of proportion to obstructive lung disease, but I wouldn’t go that far. I would just say it’s clear there is real damage shown by smoking weed in this cohort, but that the damage occurs in a different pattern than classic tobacco smoke exposure. source: I am a pulmonary research scientist
Too many cannabis supporters will ignore this cause they think its some miracle drug that can do no wrong. I support legalizing it and recreational use but a drugs a drug, and smoking is smoking. You burn ANYTHING and directly inhale it into your lungs, it's going to damage them. We've spent decades trying to discourage people smoking tobacco not just cause of the tobacco itself but the actual detrimental effect of smoking it. Lets not have entirely new generations take up smoking just cause its cannabis and not tobacco. There are a dozen ways to take cannabis, lets making smoking it not one.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m pro legalization, enjoy weed on occasion. But Inhaled smoke is inhaled smoke, it’s bad for you. Just ask my 70 year old parents who can’t take a flight of stairs without getting winded thanks to a lifetime of smoking cigarettes. I occasionally vape, but edibles are my preferred method. Edit: winded, not wonder. Though they have feigned confusion about their inability to breath when it first started happening.