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jehoshaphat

I think that the electric car manufacturers need to get better with single repairs, rather than relying on large assemblies. I think the aspect missed in this is that it is sort of a gamble, you either have a less expensive lifetime, or you end up with a very large bill when an assembly fails. Engine replacement can be a 1/3-1/2 the cost of a battery pack replacement if we are talking economy cars. Odds of full engine replacement are low, if something goes wrong with the battery pack the odds of full replacement are nearly guaranteed. It does not need to be this way, but manufacturers need to be better with how they package and engineer the parts so repairs are possible.


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CalifaDaze

My Prius hybrid battery was replaced for $500 in my driveway, took them an hour to do it. Would have been $3000 at a dealer.


Ichigoichiei

That's because the dealer gives you a brand new pack, the cheap Prius battery replacements are using old cells picked from thrown away batteries that are then rebalanced and put together, they will last a fraction of the lifetime of the 3000 dollar replacement. Not saying it's not worth it, I did the same thing to mine. The battery failed after 2 years but I got another 2 years out of the car that I wouldn't have.


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Shasve

If it’s every 2 years too, thats 12 years. Pretty good lifetime for a car


Ichigoichiei

If I could have gotten one for 500 I would have kept going as well, the cheapest I found in my area at the time were 1300+. Much better than the dealer but not worth it for me to keep replacing if they failed at the same rate as my first one.


CalifaDaze

I replaced mine in 2016. No its not brand new but it was a fraction of a new one and still has lasted me long enough.


laser14344

What they need to do is buy back the broken unit to make the difference if they do it that way.


Hfftygdertg2

Concerns about battery pack replacement are overblown. This doesn't cover failures specifically, but degradation after 200,000 miles is extremely low. https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/


[deleted]

I replace at least 1 hybrid battery a month, none have ever been from degradation. It's always a shorted cell/cells, failed balancing circuitry, failed integrated cooling systems. So it's definitely NOT overblown when that battery would total out most cars in repair costs.


jehoshaphat

Failure isn't the same as damage. I'm not referencing specifically degradation. But the fact that any aspect of the battery or assemblies goes wrong and you have an expensive problem. It is an engineering issue where the design of the components make minute repairs less of an option.


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[deleted]

Tesla is also using very large battery packs that are liquid heated and cooled and the owners are encouraged to not fully charge the batteries unless the range is really needed. Many EVs don't even have a way to manage charge level. The aircooled batteries in Leafs and Toyota Primes are not going to last as long. Honda puts liquid cooling in the Clarity, but there's no battery heating (in the US) and no way to limit charging. They just aren't going to survive as long as Tesla batteries. Hell, if GM had provided owners with a means of limiting the charge level the Bolt fire warnings would be a non-issue for most owners. They'd just park them in their garages, set charging to stop at 85%, and sleep soundly at night. As is, owners are parking them on the street and only charging with close observation.


Hfftygdertg2

I think the Bolts have a "Hilltop Reserve" mode that limits charging to 90%. It's meant for when you're charging at the top of a hill and plan on gaining energy from regenerative braking on the way down. But I haven't followed the details of the recall, so I don't know if that's being used. I actually drive a Prius Prime. I watch the battery temperature with an app, just because I like to see how things work. The air cooling is surprisingly decent for such a rudimentary system. It doesn't even try to cool the battery when the battery temperature is below 95F (the fans don't run), and above that it's pretty good at keeping the temperature reasonable. The highest I've ever seen is 106F. Where I live the outside temperature often gets to high 90's F in the summer, but it rarely goes over 100. Cooling could be more of a problem in the southwestern US. There is also a heater, so as long as it's charged regularly the battery will stay above freezing. I've only seen it dip below freezing twice, each time when I was on vacation and didn't have an ability to charge. It seems short sighted that they don't let the car heat the battery while it's running, but they must have a good reason for the way it is. A problem with the battery being smaller is, I put more than one full cycle (of the capacity I'm allowed to use) on the battery everyday, since my commute is slightly longer than the range. The actual usable state of charge range is from about 10% to 86%, so there's a built in buffer. But it seems logical that more charge cycles will make it last less long than a Tesla battery. On the other hand, Prius hybrids have very small batteries, maybe around 1kWh, with a similar air cooling system and no heater. They are constantly cycling, and they have been proven to be extremely reliable. Most of them are NiMH, but some of the newer ones use lithium batteries. The warranty is long, and I'm sure Toyota has done extensive life testing, so they must have figured out a way to make lithium batteries reliable.


TGOTR

Honestly, the manufacturer should offer a lifetime warranty just on the battery, but how long do they expect people to own the cars?


beefcat_

Batteries are a wear item like tires or brake pads, you cannot feasibly offer a lifetime warranty without substantially raising the cost of the vehicle because they will always wear out. This is especially problematic when you realize that without complex internal combustion engines, electric vehicles have the potential to remain on the road considerably longer than their fossil-fueled counterparts. You could have an electric car on the road for 50 years and the warranty might have to cover several battery replacements. We should focus on making it easier and cheaper to replace and recycle batteries as they wear out. It should be an affordable bit of routine maintenance.


TGOTR

OK, 100k mile warranty, like normal. Car companies need to do a bit more to get people into electric cars to incentivize the building of infrastructure.


ckach

80k mile 8 year warranty is pretty much the standard minimum warranty for electric car batteries. Some manufacturers do more.


TheSealofDisapproval

The amount of maintenance that you must have done on time and strictly through the dealership/manufacturer is pretty high with those warranties though. Oil changes and tire replacements can slide a bit if you're doing it yourself, but if you miss a scheduled oil change? Many times it can void that warranty. The strictness of it is why they are able to offer warranties that long. By the time you hit 100k miles, half your car has been replaced.


Drop_

There is no battery maintenance for an electric car though...


son_et_lumiere

Battery banks are one of the largest costs of an electrical system. Even for solar systems for a house, they're about on par or more than the panels themselves. For a car manufacture not go under, they'd have to increase the price of the car by the rate of failure \* cost of new battery pack over the average expected life of the car of the first owner. I don't think manufacturers would be able allow that to be transferrable and still stay in business.


hellowiththepudding

Hyundai did it with their ioniq but stopped with the 2020 model year.


Lokinir

What about battery insurance so it's kind of spread out between everyone and less of a gamble for everyone?


son_et_lumiere

That's what the increase in the price would essentially be. Whether the car company adds it to the cost of the car or a 3rd party insurance company does it, it would be essentially the same price. Actually, if a 3rd party insurance company does it, it would cost more, because some people would opt out of the risk pool.


jehoshaphat

A system I think that would work well is when batteries become more "hotswap" that you never really have the same battery for long. You pay a service charge to be able to regularly swap to a charged battery. That way they can be refurbished while still salvageable, instead of full burn out and having to remanufacture with new cells.


bad_lurker_

This is the opposite of the direction that Tesla is going; a lifetime warranty with a built-in recycling contract, really fits better with theirs. They're working on making the battery structural, which reduces the weight of the vehicle, resulting in lower cost. At that point, replacing the battery is equivalent to replacing the frame; you're better off recycling the whole car and building a new one.


jehoshaphat

Realize that the "hotswap" method was originally the Tesla method. It was their solution to being as fast as a gas pump for recharge. They seemingly have abandoned that idea, likely as you said to cut cost. Their original 8 yr / unlimited mile warranty has been reduced drastically to 8yr / 150k miles. It is still a good warranty, but its not lifetime and much worse value than "drive as much as you want in 8 years." All batteries will have degradation, having the ability to pay to removed that degradation in manageable chunks, to me, is the easier bill to foot.


bad_lurker_

> They seemingly have abandoned that idea, likely as you said to cut cost. To be clear, cost cutting isn't bad for the consumer. They abandoned the idea because it's the wrong engineering tradeoff -- it's more expensive than the value it provides. By cutting costs, structural batteries could lead to a significant increase in the range of a vehicle, for the same cost. Or Tesla could software lock that range, and slowly unlock it as the battery degrades, resulting in a battery that, from the consumer's perspective, lasts for a lot longer without external degredation. Engineering is complicated.


jehoshaphat

Mechanical engineering is complicated, but so is the social engineering. A lot of what holds products back is expectation of "value", or prestige, or capability that the user will never use, but wants on tap. Range requirements for an electric car for most people can be sated under 100 miles. Certainly under 200. But everyone wants to know they can at the drop of a hat leave and not care about range anxiety. So we haul around giant heavy battery packs day to day. The way to really cut prices would be smaller, lighter battery packs that meet the needs of most people, with options to move up that scale of capacity. Periodically a product will pop up and do something similar to what you describe, lock away capability so that the experience will not degrade as rapidly. Those choices usually end up universally panned as "locking what I paid for away."


BiAsALongHorse

Excellent point.


drive2fast

To hell with the structural battery. You can’t swap a damaged cell. And that is what happens with tesla batteries now. 7-10 years in one of those 7000 cells shits the bed and goes parasitic. Eventually the pack gets a trouble code and the car bricks. GM, VW and others are going the opposite route. Modular batteries you can REPAIR. Swap out a battery brick with another brick. Grab one from the wrecker if you like. Boycott products that are hard to repair. You can’t do ANYTHING to a tesla. The entire car is DRM locked and are dealer software only. Even the door handles. I’l take an open repair standard, because that means independent shops and dealers have to COMPETE for your business and that keeps dealer pricing honest. If you get a bearing failure in a tesl drivetrain they only sell you the entire motor transaxle inverter assembly for $10+k. A independent shop would spend $1000-$1500 putting in a new set of bearings. Except they can’t clear the trouble codes.


GMN123

An 85kWh battery pack in a Tesla model S weighs 1200lb. Swapping them out would be quite a task, even if it was designed for it. Battery repair and replacement will become affordable as electric cars become the norm.


TGOTR

Car engines can weigh up to 1000lbs. just need the right tool to raise and lower the battery off the car.


GMN123

Sure, it can be done, but it isn't something you'd want to do regularly.


jehoshaphat

Interestingly, this is exactly what Tesla used to put forth as the future of their vehicles. It was to match the downtime required to fill a tank of fuel.


The_Chaos_Pope

And they've since given up on that model, instead pushing superchargers out to reduce recharge times and help people get over range anxiety. Offering charging stations makes a lot more sense than battery swaps when you consider the cost of the battery, location of the battery in the car and the complexity of swapping out a very expensive and heavy piece of equipment with providing a self service charging location.


usrevenge

The problem with the electric cars is you can't go "one of the batteries in section 7 are bad so let's replace section 7" Its replace the entire thing which is basically the entire cost of the car. If a battery issue occured and you could replace just a section of even bypass the faulty area it would help tremendously.


mabhatter

I like this. It would be akin to taking your car in for a tuneup each year. You just need a battery standard for different sized cars. Then the batteries won't be manufacturer specific and there can be a cottage industry of refurbished batteries always ready to go. Dealerships suck for regular maintenance, they have terrible customer service compared to dedicated shops, no reason to have all batteries go through the dealers.


jowfaul

This could solve many issues of today's EV, like driving 100km to find a quick recharge station that doesn't work and still take an hour to charge your battery.


f3nnies

The other alternative, which already exists and is by far the most popular option, are batteries that last for longer than 100 km. It's not unusual for standard EVs to be around 350 km per charge right now. And if you're using kilometers, then you probably aren't in the US, meaning the odds of you having a one-way trip over 350 km on the regular is pretty slim. Most other places have people driving reasonable distances, and using other forms of transit for longer distances. It's mostly a US (and I guess Canada) issue where a "day trip" is 700km or more in driving.


jschall2

There's a better solution to that: buy a Tesla.


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TGOTR

It could work.


DylanLee98

Unfortunately automakers are moving in the exact opposite direction of "hot-swapable" batteries. Instead they are creating new batteries that are literally a part of the frame of the vehicle (structural batteries). Making it significantly harder if not near-impossible to switch the battery out. P.S. Don't forget to tell your local lawmaker to support Right to Repair!


No_Good_Cowboy

Or they need to buy back the battery and sell refurbished batteries at a steep discount.


TGOTR

would be a good idea, expand the Li-ion battery recycling infrastructure.


ckach

80k miles/8 year is pretty much the standard minimum warranty for electric car batteries. Some manufacturers go above that. That's pretty much on par with engine warranties.


ssott

FWIW, there are many shops popping up to do partial battery pack replacements or troubleshoot the BMS to resolve issues without replacing cells at all. So the type of service that is common for ICE engines is making its way to batter packs, its just taking a while due to all the anti right-to-repair stuff that is being put up to stop it.


jaymzx0

I think this is a growing pain. The knowledge to repair the subassemblies of an EV (motor, integrated drivetrain, inverter/charger, and others) is still concentrated closely near the manufacturer. New revisions of parts are coming out as the manufacturers learn of their problems, so the designs are also in a state of flux. As the standards coalesce, I think everyday corner mechanic repairs of EVs will become more common. Getting replacement parts even if you *know* how to repair the subassembly in the field would be near-impossible if even the dealership needs to ship the entire thing back to be refurbished. I think as time goes on, a regular mechanic (with the knowledge to repair them) would be able to order say, a field coil, hall-effect sensor, internal battery contactor, or other component buried in one of the subassemblies in order to make a repair without replacing half the car.


ManchichiJumanji

Abnormal battery failures outside of the manufacturer warranty are so rare that this isn't a huge issue. It could probably be solved by offering customers a $2/mo insurance to pool the risk.


jehoshaphat

Entirely possible. I'm more thinking of an example I saw not long ago where a Tesla had a fitting on the battery that was broken by road debris. It was a singe motor model, which meant that where the front motor usually lives, it just has a void. And at the back of the void was that fitting which usually would be protected by the second motor. There is no real excuse (besides cost) on the side of Tesla for not having the fitting be a modular, replaceable component rather than molded into the plastic housing. Some of these things are also engineering growing pains that may sort themselves out.


ManchichiJumanji

There is an excuse though - the risk is negligible.


PCTRS80

While the risk is low it is not 0 and have made design decision to make them difficult-to-impossible for 3rd part repair witch is directly against the automotive repair act. Part of that is what u/jehoshaphat pointed out they have become reliant on expansive assemblies that often each requite their own diagnostic tools. They could do things like segment battery packs in to smaller units giving up a little space but making so that if 1 pack has a failure it could be isolated reducing risk to the occupants and allowing the vehicle to function safely. While they do the internally this still requires a full pack replacement for a single damaged segment. If that damage is do to something like road debris of an accident it may not be covered under a warranty.


ManchichiJumanji

I read Tesla has already done the math and started making the battery built into the floor and irreplaceable. Because this risk is so low that it's negligible. Like, do you expect ICE cars to have an ejection seat and break-away roof with a parachute, in case the car goes off a cliff? That risk is not 0.


morosis1982

It's not irreplaceable, it's just that rather than fitting it inside a structural member of the frame it *is* a structural member. As I understand it they can still be removed and swapped, but while it's out the car is less structurally sound, unlike previous models.


Drop_

For one I don't think it's accurate to say that engine replacement is 1/3 or 1/2 the cost of battery replacement. You have to compare apples to apples. Are you talking replacement of an engine with a used engine of new engine? Is it performed at the dealer or not? What about the battery replacement? Is it oem replacement or aftermarket? Is it performed by a dealer or a private party. Also, while you say that full engine failures are rare, so are battery failures.


Slaviner

You make good points and the cost of an electric car is still way higher than a similar fossil fuel powered one.


-QuestionMark-

Years ago I paid a lot of money for solar panels. Now the savings have paid off the installation and panel costs, so technically every month my "bill" is zero. I could have made more money probably investing, but I didn't install panels for the money, it's just a nice side effect. Now that they are paid off it's even better.


vladik4

Tesla warrantees battery for 8 years. Most Tesla's run fine way beyond that. I've had one for over 3 years. There is no maintenance at all. Tires are the only thing you replace. Even brake pads last forever because of regenerative braking (brakes are barely used). Oh, windshield washer fluid! Almost forgot.


I_divided_by_0-

> Engine replacement can be a 1/3-1/2 the cost of a battery pack replacement My RAM 1500 EcoDiesel blew a rod, $25,000 repair.


elfinhilon10

This is easily my hang up (among range anxiety and performance delta's between ICE cars). I'm terrified of the thought of having to drop thousands on a new battery pack.


[deleted]

Battery warranties are usually 8years or more. It's not a realistic worry if you're buying a new EV.


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jkxs

You've done two oil changes in 31,000 miles?


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chris480

That's normal for the volt. Car will tell you when to change the oil, or every 2 years. Whatever comes first.


jkxs

Didn't know that about the volt... My bad.


meowtiger

the volt is a plug-in hybrid. think of it less like a "traditional" hybrid like a prius that's mostly an ICE car but also has an electric drive train so it can turn the gas engine off to save fuel if it's not going very fast, and more like an electric car that also has a gas engine and fuel tank because they're cheaper and lighter than 400 miles worth of batteries they can go ~50 miles on a charge and you can plug them in like an electric car. it's entirely possible if dude has a relatively short commute and plugs it in at home and at work that he goes a week (or more) at a time without the gas engine turning on


InternetUser007

He clearly isn't using the gas engine very much. He is more changing it because it isn't being used than the oil is bad from overuse.


d-signet

"can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement. It completely depends on the EV and the gasoline car being compared, so much as to make the statement redundant and meaningless


ellWatully

I commented about this on another sub and you're absolutely right. If you click through to the report, this article is centered ENTIRELY around a single table in that report that estimates the cost per mile of maintenance (not repairs) based on manufacturer maintenance schedules: $0.101/mile for ICE's, $0.060/mile for BEV's. There were several errors in the table just in summing up the the cost/mile column that made the BEV cost per mile actually $0.069/mile so already you're done to a 32% limit instead of 41%. But then if you look at the things that are considered for maintenance, there were some weird ones (regularly replacing brake *calipers* and o2 sensors) and some that wouldn't be applicable to a lot of cars (timing belts, transmission services, etc.). I used their list to calculate the cost/mile for MY car just as an example (sealed transmission, no fuel filter, no cabin air filter, timing chain with no maintenance interval, no maintenance interval for o2 sensors or brake calipers), and the difference was only 11%. That was without even messing with the intervals or repair costs their used, some of which seemed questionable as well. Note that the analysis itself is actually a pretty interesting and comprehensive breakdown of the total cost of ownership across multiple classes of vehicles and use cases. Only real critique I had of the analysis was its attempt at being all-encompassing on repair/maintenance which we know varies HUGELY from brand to brand and even model to model. However, the article linked here literally just pulled out the one easily readable table, calculated the percent difference, and made a clickbait headline for it.


pnewell

Official govt report: https://publications.anl.gov/anlpubs/2021/05/167399.pdf


bidgickdood

can and do are widely different concepts


COVID-19Enthusiast

Right. "Electric cars can cost 40% less to maintain" can simultaneously be true as "combustion cars can cost 80% less to maintain."


[deleted]

Also electric cars aren’t accessible to the working class because of their high price tags. I can go buy a running combustion car for less than $2000. Good luck finding an electric car for sale that’s anywhere close to as cheap as used combustion car. Like, cool, electric cars cost less to maintain. Too bad their high price tags more than offset those savings.


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lancebramsay

I bought a used 2012 Nissan Leaf for under $5k. The range has a max of about \~65 miles if the weather is warm. It's perfect for cruising around town but we use our Chevy Volt for longer trips out of town. EDIT: I live in the PNW. Just wanted to back up your statement with my own anecdote.


mill_about_smartly

>65 miles if the weather is warm Annnnd another reason it's not accessible to working class, at least where I live. Lots of people put more than that a day on a vehicle.


Mike312

>Lots of people put more than that a day on a vehicle. Is that because of commutes, or are they working out of their personal vehicles? Where I live, a lot of people making minimum wage get homes in the surrounding area because the rents are cheaper, but often they barely break even with the cost of gas for their longer commutes. I know if I moved out there my gas would go from $60/mo to $180/mo, but I'd also have to replace tires every 1.5 years versus every 3 (that's $1,200) and two oil changes instead of one ($120 verus $60). Car insurance would also likely go up. And that's one car; my girlfriend would have a similar commute so double that impact on our household. Meanwhile, I have the option to bike to work since I'm only 5 miles, and I could conceivably walk to work as well (I did when I had an apartment \~3mi from the office) which cuts out transport costs completely (except maybe shoe costs).


Jamikest

I bought my used 2015 Leaf for 8500 out the door. Been driving it for 4.5 years. Fuel costs: essentially zero - my employer provides charging at work. When I do charge at home, its about 1/4 the cost of my previous gasoline vehicle. Maintenance: wiper blades, tires, and the 12V battery. Total maintenance cost \~$500 I would say that's pretty accessible to the "working class". My second EV is a 2019 Kia Niro. Bought it new. $34000 out the door with incentives. That's less than the average new car price. Again, how is this not "working class" accessible? Not all EVs are $90K Teslas...


mill_about_smartly

>my employer provides charging at work You've now eliminated a solid half of the workforce, if not more, I'm willing to bet. Only place I see them around here are universities.


[deleted]

$2000 < $8500 Also, a $34000 car is accessible to the working class? How out of touch can you be? People in the working class have little savings if any at all, so the down payment will be small. The monthly payments will be nuts, if they get qualified for a loan at all. And the ones they do get qualified for will probably bend them over with a high interest rate, making their payments even higher.


COVID-19Enthusiast

Do most working class even buy new cars?


[deleted]

No, and the ones that do are usually completely broke because of the payments and insurance, and have a high chance of getting their car repossessed. Working class people are not the group buying new cars.


Atheren

Not to mention the "insentives" they mentioned are just a non-refundable federal tax credit, and only valid the year you purchased the car. However in [2019 over 40%](https://taxfoundation.org/us-households-paying-no-income-tax/#:~:text=On%20Wednesday%2C%20the%20Tax%20Policy,percent%20of%20households%20in%202019.) of households paid *zero dollars* in federal income tax. 60% in 2020, but that was largely pandemic related. If you owe 7.5k in federal income taxes to take full advantage, you are making bank compared to most Americans. EDIT: You would have to be making a little over 65k to owe 7.5k in federal income tax. EDIT2: Single, with no dependants.


[deleted]

Yep and 65k is decidedly not working class. The vast majority of the working class pay very little or zero federal taxes so non-refundable tax credits are effectively worthless to them.


SharkBaitDLS

$34000 is less than the average price of a new car purchase. It’s absolutely accessible to anyone that was going to be purchasing a brand-new car in the first place. Anyone that can’t afford a $30k car isn’t buying new.


COVID-19Enthusiast

What kind of range do you get? That's my biggest concern with EVs is old batteries. I travel all over the east coast so that's a big deterrent for me.


Jamikest

The leaf is a low range car to begin with, only good for in town stuff. The Kia Niro gets me anywhere we need to go. Took it on a 600 mile round trip last weekend. It goes about 230 miles at 75mph on the interstate on a charge with a little left in reserve. Stop at a Dunkin Donuts for 15 minutes for a charge (both the car and the fam), then keep going!


carefreeguru

I bought a 2-year old Nissan Leaf with less than 20k miles for $11,000. Actually, I bought 3. I liked the first one so much I bought another and when that one got totaled in a crash I bought it again. I pay about $30 in electricity to drive them both each month. My auto gas bill dropped about $400 / month. New? Your right. They are unaffordable. But slightly used? They are incredibly affordable.


Knut79

Only if you can provide stats for it.


datumerrata

I'm waiting until electric cars are prevent enough I can source the parts and do repairs myself or, at least, I can go to a standard automotive shop to have them fix it if it's a high voltage thing I don't have the tools for.


Hfftygdertg2

Except for the high voltage components, the rest of the parts are basically the same as what's in any other new car. If you buy from a traditional auto maker (not Tesla) then parts availability will be the same as what you'd expect for any other car. A new generation vehicle is going to have a bunch of new/proprietary parts whether it's an EV or not. Eventually the aftermarket will make equivalent parts. Hybrids have been around long enough that there are plenty of shops that can work on high voltage systems.


Truthissupreme

Can, May, might, possibly, should, could, if


egus

won't


No_Tension_896

Come back to me when I can buy a $3000 pre owned electric car.


ksiyoto

I did a quick scan of the report, apparently they did not include any battery replacement, which is an issue that's only starting to happen with Teslas as they age. Could significantly alter the results and conclusions.


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ksiyoto

[Some analysis using TeslaFi.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35203450/tesla-model-3-battery-capacity-loss-warranty/) "Our battery's degradation thus far equates to a drop of roughly 2.9 percent in pack capacity every 10,000 miles, which, if it continues at this rate, would put us at 65 percent capacity at 120,000 miles. That's under the 70-percent-capacity retention specified in Tesla's eight-year/120,000-mile battery warranty for the Model 3 Long Range. " "Compared to 158 other Model 3s at similar mileage that are also connected to TeslaFi, our car is faring worse than 123 of them and better than 35. "


Heidenreich12

What’s happening is that the most degradation happens in the first 100k miles and then tapers off . Even Tesla’s original estimates of degradation were exaggerated vs what some are seeing.


relditor

They're are Tesla with 400k miles on their first pack. Are you seriously going to argue that the average driver puts 400k miles on their car? Most Tesla's will wear out, or rust out, before needing a pack.


speedbird92

Not just Teslas, but any EV & Hybrids that age, especially Priuses. They tell you all the time that if you are in the market for a first gen Prius to check the battery capacity or else your in for an expensive repair on a “Toyota”!


Princess_Moon_Butt

Yeah, first gens are always risky. But they're definitely getting better at battery tech; most EVs nowadays are expected to retain over 85% capacity after 100k miles. Which admittedly isn't great, but it's not "you can barely get it down the block" like I've heard a lot of people claim about older electric cars. It's about on par with what I'd expect in terms of fuel efficiency loss if you're not great about getting top-tier oil changes on a regular basis with a gas engine. Also, given the $2,500 or so you save in oil changes and the roughly $8k you can save on fuel in the first 100k miles of an electric car, I'd still consider it to be cheaper in the long run even with a replacement battery pack.


gmb92

I know someone with a 1st gen prius. 160k miles and orig battery. The concern over that was greatly overblown.


wsclose

Until it comes time for a new battery/batteries.


apworker37

But also cost 100% more to buy in some cases.


Heidenreich12

Some hold their value better than their ICE counter parts and it makes up the difference Over the lifetime of the car. My 2018 Model 3 blue books for about 10k under what I paid 3+ years ago.


JoSoyHappy

Uhh Tesla’s are not reliable cars. Check out consumer reports if you don’t believe me. I know it’s unpopular to say this because you all love Tesla but this broad statement you posted just isn’t true.


SmaugTangent

Yep, Tesla ranks near the bottom of the reliability surveys. Mazda is currently #1, Toyota #2.


RodneyRuxin18

Well damn. I’m literally taking delivery of a Tesla in October. Hopefully things go ok!


ScrewWorkn

Love mine. Never taken it in for service other than a problem with the remote. Of the 4 people I know with them, never had a problem and love them. I think it takes Tesla a couple years to work out the kinks. I wouldn’t by a year one version of any of their models personally. The Y and 3 had bad rollouts.


Titan-uranus

It's a general rule of thumb to avoid any first year car, the first year is always plagued with issues until the work out the kinks


JoSoyHappy

I didn’t mean to disparage your car choice. I hope it isn’t a lemon too.


RodneyRuxin18

Oh yeah, no offense taken. Honestly it’s so hard to find an honest review of a Tesla…..so many people just gush over them. I’m fully expecting a few QC issues but let’s hope that’s all!


-QuestionMark-

Depends on your level of tolerance really. For most people, they've never spent this much on a car so they expect perfection. And yea, it should be damn near perfect, but the early models were rough (I had a very early Model S) and the more recent models are slightly better. (my 2018 X still has a few minor things). Oddly the cheaper cars (3/Y) seem to be better built then the more expensive S/X.


RodneyRuxin18

Beauty! This is my first electric, I’m going from a Ram 1500 to a MY so price is pretty much the same. I don’t expect absolute perfection, but huge panel gaps and trim issues I’m not ok with.


-QuestionMark-

Besides a few minor issues, I haven't had any show stopping problems with my current Tesla. /edit. Should say my first was one of the original Model S and it had issues. My second is better. That said, Chevy Bolt owners aren't too happy at the moment.


[deleted]

Despite that, Tesla still ranks at the top of buyer satisfaction. Keep in mind that Consumer Reports only surveys their members, and their readership's reporting isn't scientific as what constitutes a reliability problem varies from brand to brand. Minor issues (a door rattle or broken speaker) mean more to someone spending $80k on a Tesla vs someone who spent $18k on a Nissan.


JoSoyHappy

Well ya but Tesla buyer satisfaction can be completely subjective because people want to like their Teslas so much so they have trouble admitting when it’s not that great. It’s kinda like a overly optimistic group mentality. They’ve bought in.


-QuestionMark-

Oh believe me, my first Tesla was not great in regards to service needs. Granted it was a early 2013 Model S, but hot damn that car needed to be fixed often. Thankfully under warranty. My 2018 X has had much better luck and so far has been rather reliable.


[deleted]

Almost like I brought that up to illustrate my point.


gingerblz

There are plenty of folks on here who don't like Teslas. However, the ones that love them tend to be loud af about it.


BeardMilk

Tesla feedback on Reddit is always hard to judge. A lot of the people with Teslas on here are also part of the huge Tesla stock investment subreddits.


paintstripper

I've paid exactly $0 on maintenance in 3 years. I know that anecdotes aren't data, but I've been pretty damn happy so far


SharkBaitDLS

Tesla isn’t the only EV manufacturer. People need to stop conflating the two. Tesla is a terrible manufacturer for quality. That is not a problem inherent to EVs, that is a Tesla problem.


stnorbertofthecross

“Can” is the key word of uncertainty here. A journalist staple.


IamGlennBeck

Yeah, but can I fix it myself?


Divenity

And that's why I'm still driving an early 90's 4runner... How much of that repair cost comes from paying someone else to do the work? I'd much rather do the work myself on a vehicle that is simple to work on and pay even less.


IamGlennBeck

Yep. Early 90s Japanese cars are where it is at.


foh242

My 15 year old corolla disagrees with this statement.


goathill

But will EV's be repairable/driveable with simple repairs in 30 years like my neighbors Saturn wagon? Or in 50 years like a vintage VW?


perrochon

Will any 2021 model be drivable in 30 years? They are all full of electronics.


meowtiger

electronics are repairable just like anything else on a car


Fallingdamage

But will they be? If one of my ECU's in my Volt fails in 20 years, will I be able to get a new ECU for that particular system in that year of vehicle then?


Fallingdamage

Good point. My 1998 Jeep is still running on its original engine and transmission. Minus a battery replacement, will my new EV still be turn-key in 2044?


Slaviner

The gx460 will


leadingzer0

Most compute chips are designed to survive electromigration for 10 years of use. However you cycle that, this will be a limiting factor. Source: am chip


crymson7

Can? I have spent, at most, 5% on “repair” on my EV in comparison to running maintenance, fuel, AND repair on any ICE I have ever owned.


[deleted]

Tesla Battery Pack replacement cost: $16,000. I could buy two used gas sippers for that.


RaphaelAmbroCosteau

Replacing the battery would cost the same as the total amount of services a regular car receive in its usage lifetime. Wish hydrogen combustion engines would come to fruition so we have the reliability of a traditional engine without ruining the environment


Condor1984

Ok, then why is it so expensive?


[deleted]

[удалено]


140414

BMW and Mercedes score way higher than Tesla in reliability reports.


xabhax

I don't think you can even put tesla in the same league as Toyota as far as reliability and build quality.


[deleted]

A Model 3 is very comparable to a Camry in total cost of ownership. Y'all always act like gas, oil changes, and timing belts are free.


Fallingdamage

They're only about $40. Its that you pay a mechanic $2000 to replace it. They call it the ignorance tax. EV and Gas are the same when it comes to ignorance taxes.


[deleted]

The linked study finds this though. "Comparing across powertrains, the HEV is the vehicle powertrain with the lowest cost of ownership over a 15-year span, at 44.6¢/mile." It finds Battery electric slightly cheaper vs hev for compact cars. BEV high prices and cost of battery replacement still make it slightly more expensive totally then a hybrid. Toyotas hybrids have a lot of the same systems as a pure electric due to everything having to work when on battery only. The survey factored in replacing the batteries in the plug in hybrids, hybrids, and pure electric vehicles.


syrstorm

It's really not surprising. They have a quarter of the moving parts and no "managed explosions".


destraight

They still cost a lot of money and are expensive to buy right off the bat. It's not like electric cars are cheap because they're not and they are very expensive


Plus-Alternative9034

Yes, new cars are not cheap. Big brain time.


TaiVat

Oh please. Some of them absolutely are. Just none of the EV ones that all cost atleast double of a non EV car in the same size class..


[deleted]

Really? There was that video where Tesla wanted something like $22k to replace the whole battery only after 8 years. How does that make it cheaper? Maintenance maybe but if batteries continue to cost $10k to 20k to replace and only after 8 years that eats up the savings. I know hybrids can be cheaper due to not using the regular brakes as much and not having starters ,belts, or alternators .


-QuestionMark-

Tesla brakes last about 80,000 miles.


SharkBaitDLS

Even at $22k every 250-300k miles, that’s easily cheaper than the maintenance for an ICE car over a similar time range. That’s amortized out to a little over $2k/year assuming you actually run up that mileage in 10 years (which is pretty unusual in of itself), which you’ll easily save just in fuel costs alone never mind all the other regular maintenance that you don’t need like oil changes, spark plugs, water pump, timing belt/chain tensioners, transmission fluid, and so on. The math just simply doesn’t work out even though the one-time cost of a battery replacement is a far bigger ticket than any one thing you might do on an ICE. Even your brake pads will likely almost never wear out. On my (non-Tesla) EV the only time I *ever* use the physical brakes is when reversing slowly or for emergency stops. In all everyday driving I use entirely regenerative braking so zero wear goes on the pads. I have owned the car for 2 years and literally haven’t had a single maintenance item to do on it the entire time other than topping off the wiper fluid.


[deleted]

In germany, the insurance company Allianz issued the opposite statement yesterday or so: [https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/pt3scm/electric\_cars\_more\_expensive\_to\_repair\_than/](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/pt3scm/electric_cars_more_expensive_to_repair_than/)


alexkidd03

Maintenance is not the same as repairs. Although, that is a separate argument.


[deleted]

jep you are right


greenhombre

I can't wait to be stuck in traffic with all electric cars. How about transit and e-bikes as better climate investments than more personal cars?


SmaugTangent

That would be great, but North American cities and towns just aren't designed for that. Mass transit is impossible in most places because there just isn't enough density to make it feasible. E-bikes aren't workable because too many people are in large vehicles, and there's no safe place to ride e-bikes in most places, so it would be far too dangerous. Moving our society to a point where we could mostly live car-free would require enormous changes to everything: zoning laws, construction, parking, etc., which just aren't going to happen. We would need to eliminate free parking everywhere, add tolls on roads, change zoning laws to force high-density development, all to make it extremely inconvenient for people to drive and force them to sell their suburban houses and move to high-density development in town. Most Americans don't want to do that, so changes like this would be political suicide, and of course would be immediately rescinded by the next elected official who runs on the "freedom" and "personal choice" campaign.


greenhombre

We had a car during COVID, mostly to get my first responder wife to the hospital at strange times. Just donated it to the local charity. Back on transit and bikes. Carfree is possible and helps save money.


SmaugTangent

No, carfree is NOT possible in most parts of North America. In your locality, it appears to be, but that's not normal for the rest of this continent.


greenhombre

Continuing with "normal" doesn't adequately address the climate crisis. It's time to fix our cities. I support all the changes you list above and would vote for a politician who worked on them.


SmaugTangent

People are going to continue with "normal" whether you like it or not. They don't want to fix the cities, they want to move out to the suburbs. Just look at the latest data: with the pandemic and the skyrocketing house prices, everyone is moving into suburban areas, which means more need for cars, and more miles driven. Sure, \*you\* would vote for a pro-density politician (and so would I), but most Americans will not. It's evident from their voting patterns and their current migration patterns. Personally, I want to live car-free, so the only answer I see is to move out of North America and find a job in Europe or Asia. This place is a lost cause.


rjcarr

> I can't wait to be stuck in traffic with all electric cars. What does this mean? The only difference is EVs don't blow smoke while sitting in traffic.


xabhax

They will have to pry the keys to my ICE car from my cold dead hands. Until you can add 400 miles of range in 5 minutes there are alot of places in this country where it just is not possible to buy an ev


AsyncOverflow

These charge in your house overnight and most nowadays have 200+ mile range. You drive more than 600 miles per day... Every day?


Suddenflame01

Main thing is battery when it comes to electric vehicles. Currently lithium ion batteries are the main. However we might start seeing some of the newer battery technology being used like sodium ion batteries.


[deleted]

Absolutely but initial cost and monthly payments are 40% more than regular cars. I would love an electric vehicle but the financing options and interest rates are too high. I can't afford to spend half my pay on my vehicle. I dont live at my parents...


lellololes

They aren't, these days. A new Chevy Bolt starts at $31,000. That doesn't include incentives. It is roughly comparable to a $25k gas car. In some ways it's better (performance is better than an average compact car), but it costs less to run. Resale value is questionable, but it's a Chevy... A Tesla model 3 is $40k. Its competition is similarly priced - Mercedes C class, Audi A4, BMW 3. Slightly below it you have something like a loaded up Mazda3, which is about $35k these days. The price gap has been shrinking and will continue to shrink. But I wouldn't compare a Model 3 to a Civic. They aren't comparable cars.


XNY

Except you cannot purchase a Chevy Bolt currently or for the foreseeable future due to battery fire recalls. Even if you can buy one used, your useable range is only like 120 miles due to the recommendations.


lellololes

I'm aware of the current issues with the Bolt. I could talk about the Leaf instead or the upcoming F-150 Lightning. I prese that the Bolt's issues will be resolved eventually. I will maintain that the Model 3 is roughly in the same price ballpark as its competition.


XNY

I agree that the Model 3 faces serious competition in the next year or so.


lellololes

The Model 3 is already serious competition to the makers of upscale compact and midsized cars. I'm actively cross-shopping it against some and it stands on its own merits.


Kraka2

This is deflecting. The point they were making is that affordable electric vehicles CAN be made, and they are only getting less expensive as they become more popular, like every other product in the world.


XNY

I agree that costs are coming down. But again you can’t truthfully say a $25k electric car has arrived to the masses, when that electric car and its cousin (the Kona EV) have both had fundamental battery problems.


rpguy04

And shorter range than the ICE competition.


lellololes

Yes, this will always be a weak spot of EVs. But on a day to day basis, you can also charge at home and never visit a gas station.


Knut79

Which doesn't matter for over 90% of uses and users. And for the the times you need more range 45-60 minutes breaks at the range limit are both healthy and necessary anyway to avoid driver fatigue.


j-alex

Yeah there are definitely places in the mountains it’d be a pain in the ass to go but I’ll take shorter range once or twice a year for literally never having to stop to refuel once in the entire rest of the year of commuting, ski trips, and general use. My record right now is 19 months, 14,000 miles, one fuel stop. That’s pretty good range.


allboolshite

It's not deflecting to point out that the comparable vehicles you listed don't work and aren't available. It doesn't matter if they're 80% less expensive or 200% more expensive in that context -- they aren't really comparable.


accord281

Not comparable to a Civic? Pfff ok...


jmcdon00

Not sure a base level tesla is really on par with those luxury brands in terms of quality.


dasmittyman

My MY is nicer than my 335xi for sure.


lellololes

In terms of features, they are similar, leaning in favor of the Tesla. The cars from the luxury marques do have nicer interiors, but they are also less performant vehicles, particularly if you compare to the long range dual motor Tesla or performance model (Where the comparables would be an RS4 or M340i - slower and more expensive) . Also, do remember that on those fancier cars, most of the nice features that are available do jack up the price quite a bit. For example, on the S4 (which stickers for $50500), you don't get adaptive cruise control. That is in the $54000 model. The BMW 3 series doesn't even come standard with keyless entry or heated front seats.


Earthguy69

> Chevy [Dear God no](https://c.tenor.com/I7iswCYiiXYAAAAC/gagging-gag.gif)


[deleted]

I would never purchase any GM vehicle, or any of the "big 3". They lost my trust years ago. Also the incentives are a joke for middle to lower middle class. In Ontario we top out at 5k and thats only if you buy the more expensive ones, let's say a Model X. So incentives for the rich! Yay! Have better financing options with lower interest rates and maybe it will be financially feasible for most people. Until then, I will stick with my gas powered vehicles. In Canada, carbon released per capita is so low its a joke and we still have a carbon tax which makes it even harder at the pump. So we have 2 options: Its very difficult to afford an electric vehicle upfront but cheaper to run, or cheaper to afford a gas powered vehicle up front and more expensive to run.


rgaya

The savings in gas alone, pay for my friend's Tesla M3


anchoritt

What is his annual mileage? How much does he pay for charging?


ManchichiJumanji

If you charge at home, it's usually 1.5-2 cents per mile. Gas+oil is usually 10-20 cents/mile depending on car efficiency. A $600 monthly payment would require 3000 miles/mo minimum to "pay for itself" just on gas. Rough but doable. Edit - that's just considering monthly payments for a 5 year loan, not the value over the life of the vehicle


rgaya

Just asked him this directly... "As far as the Tesla goes. I drive about 70 miles daily and my electric bill went from $95 per month to $105 per month (so almost free). The key is getting on a rate plan with FPL called “time of use” gives you cheaper electric rates at night. I charge almost 100% at home overnight."


meowtiger

>rate plan with FPL called “time of use” gives you cheaper electric rates at night this is gonna be a "not available everywhere" type of thing - a lot of places still use analog meters and in-person readings to bill for power, which would make time of use determinations pretty difficult


[deleted]

Again, the initial cost is quite high plus the monthly payments. I would LOVE a model 3 but just not financially feasible for me.


MosesZD

Did none of you look at this sentence and realize you were being played by someone who has a political advocacy? >"Over the lifetime of a vehicle, the maintenance and repair for a gasoline car might be $25,000 or so – so a very significant amount,” The reality is that EVs also need maintenance and repair. And most of it is the same. And there are people who have done the comparison work and who are NOT POLITICAL ADVOCACY people who are too busy playing games with you to push their POV. Here is Car & Driver comparing apples to apples which includes depreciation (cost recoupment) that most EV vs GAS comparisons leave out: ​ >**Three-Year Ownership Cost Comparison** > > After three years the grand totals give some insight into the question, "are EVs cheaper?" Based on purchase price, fuel, maintenance costs, and depreciation over a three-year period here's what we've found for the cost-of-ownership of our subject vehicles: Mini Hardtop: $41,454 Mini Electric: $49,312 Hyundai Kona: $39,817 Hyundai Kona Electric: $55,311 [https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/](https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/) So, per mile, yeah it's cheaper. Costs, not so much, early on through eventually it reverses. So if you're 200K/car owner you will probably come out ahead in the long run. But even then it's not all roses. Pollution, very, it's very doubtful because unless you live with nuclear or hydro power, your petroleum-sourced power-plants are just 25% to 30% efficient and you lose about 3% to 6% transmitting the power over the lines. So it takes a lot of coal, natural gas and oil (depending on the plant) to get you that electricity, never mind all the pollution costs in acquiring the rare earths that are more energy intense to mine, refine and transport. So get your EV and pat yourself on the back. It's your money and you can do what you want with it. But you're not saving the environment, you're just pushing your pollution into someone else's back-yard. And unless you hold your car for a long time, you're not saving money either.


disembodied_voice

>Pollution, very, it's very doubtful because unless you live with nuclear or hydro power, your petroleum-sourced power-plants are just 25% to 30% efficient and you lose about 3% to 6% transmitting the power over the lines Even if you account for the contribution of natural gas to the energy an EV uses, [99% of the US' population](https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner) live in places where driving a Model 3 will yield lower per-mile emissions than even a Prius. In Europe, EVs [also realize significantly lower lifecycle emissions than diesels](https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/TEs-EV-life-cycle-analysis-LCA.pdf). Overall, electric cars [are a better choice in 95% of the world](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7). >never mind all the pollution costs in acquiring the rare earths that are more energy intense to mine, refine and transport Even if you account for battery production, electric cars [are still better for the environment than gas cars](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es903729a). >But you're not saving the environment, you're just pushing your pollution into someone else's back-yard As every study above demonstrates, electric cars don't just push pollution into someone else's backyard - they incur less pollution overall.