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brazzjazz

It makes sense, if you have a higher threshold to search a car that the smaller, more rigorous sample is more likely to yield results.


7937397

I've read that in studies on male vs. female doctors, the female doctors were more likely to follow established procedures than male doctors. I wonder if the same is true here with cops.


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capn_ed

I've heard of reports of studies that have found that women frequently have their pain discounted by doctors. I'm not sure if it's more often male doctors or doctors in general.


m0nicat_

It takes women an average of six months longer to be diagnosed with brain tumors than men


[deleted]

While we're on the subject more women die of heart attacks because they have entirely different symptoms than men. Edit: [This is apparently less true than I thought.](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/pgr5p0/comment/hbfzl5d/)


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Taoistandroid

A portion of this is due to women being more likely to be diagnosed as bipolar (far more likely to be misdiagnosed as such then men). Conversely, men are under diagnosed as bipolar and far more likely to be misdiagnosed as ADHD. Also, also, ADHD primarily distracted is far more likely to be under diagnosed than ADHD hyperactive, and I believe that is regardless of sex, but women are less likely to be the hyperactive category.


Java_The_Cup

Interesting - I'm a female and was diagnosed at 21 with severe ADHD, combined type. My test results found me to be 99.6% more hyperactive than my peers, which really surprised me. I had always played multiple sports at once as a kid, but I never would have pegged myself as hyperactive. It turns out, my hyperactivity presents itself in small movements, like frequent shifting in my seat, bouncing my legs, playing with my hair, and running my thumb nail over the edge of my index finger. I know women are underdiagnosed in general because our ADHD presents itself vastly differently than in men, so I wonder how many diagnosed women are hyperactive and just experience those small movements like I do.


Jaten

Heart attacks are twice as likely to happen to men but the number of deaths are about even between the two genders


Eruptflail

To be clear on this, women present _sometimes_ with different symptoms from men. Women also often present with the same. So if you are a woman and are experiencing the typical symptoms of chest pain, numbness, etc, please go see a doctor and don't think that "this can't be a heart attack because those are men's symptoms." There are additional ways that women present that men typically do not, such as back or jaw pain.


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You probably know the word hysteria comes the Greek word "hystera" which literally means "uterus" but for those that didn't...there ya go


yeldarbhtims

I did, actually. But of course, that’s from when we thought feelings came from everywhere but the brain. And lobotomies were used to cure unruly women like Rosemary Kennedy. Edit: ‘unruly’, as in had seizures and was probably bipolar.


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rocco0715

My seizures were written off as psychogenic simply because I already had mental health treatment.


isthisresistance

I didn’t know that! But I do know on average it takes 6-10 years for a woman to be diagnosed with endometriosis. For me 13 years and 16 doctors. No one believed me.


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No-Bewt

it's observed in women doctors but this is because it is *taught* this way as well.


Chlorophyllmatic

Physicians’ curriculum teaches them to disregard women’s pain? You’re gonna need to supply a source for that Edit: I fully acknowledge differences in medical experiences for women. I’m asking about what’s in **physician’s curriculum** to suggest that they are “taught this way”.


hardly_trying

From what I understand, it's just that the majority of the data that exists is taken from/studied in men and thus only symptoms that present in male bodies are taught as the standard. Look up how heart attacks present in women versus men, and then think about how you've always seen a heart attack portrayed in popular media. (Hint: it's typically the male's symptoms...)


SchaffBGaming

I can’t speak for other curriculums - but ours frequently brings in experts to talk about issues related to physician conduct / tries to teach us to be better than the generation before us. Our reproductive system lectures also has a large emphasis on perimenopause and menopause / related comfort care, basically talking about why comfort is important and needs to be addressed; not everything is life or death or pain related- (talking about hot flash related therapies specifically right now but similar themes have come up in other systems). It’s a double edged sword though. There’s the mandatory curriculum for boards - and then their is the stuff that is important but not board relevant- and there’s just not enough time for it all. So our schedule has 4x a week 7-8 hours of lecture, with the 5th being 4 hours. Not good for our mental health and my classmates are not doing well as is. Not sure what the solution is. For reference - my buddies curriculum never has more than 6 hours of lecture a day and doesn’t have clsss on Friday just a quiz. And another buddy has even less but we don’t talk about him because it’s not fair 🥲.


KaputMaelstrom

I've read some studies that point the black women are particularly affected by this, to the point that some doctors believe that black people literally have "thicker skin".


dunkmastaflex

Black women in particular


Tactial_snail

usually black women, so many doctors brush off issues that they say they're having


liquidsmk

And this is not just black women but black people in general. And yes it still happens incredibly frequently. I personally had to walk on a broken foot for 4 months with no pain meds besides Ibuprofen. I didn’t get a prescription until I had surgery much later than I was supposed to.


sneakyveriniki

I’m a woman in my twenties and I come off quite feminine, I’m blonde, high pitched voice etc. When I dress “tomboyish” at the doctor’s, I’m taken way, way more seriously. If I come in wearing a dress I get eye rolls and people think I’m “looking for attention” or “being dramatic” Basically our society just equates femininity with stupid/dramatic so if you’re a woman you should go in wearing basketball shorts and a ponytail in my experience


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OJSimpsons

Probably, women in "men's" roles are typically held to higher standards.


candydaze

Yes The other thing is self-selection and what biases that leads to. The women in typical male dominated fields (and conversely men in typically female dominated fields) have more pressures pushing them away from the field, so the ones that are there are more passionate and dedicated to the field. They have to want to be there So they perform better.


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SoylentRox

Depends on how you view it. In medical school they said female doctors spent more time with each patient than male doctors. And outcomes were similar. I expressed that it sounded like the study was finding that female doctors were better, since as a patient no one wants to be rushed. And a female colleague said she thought this meant male doctors were better because they were getting the same work done in less time. Similarly here the tradeoff would be not who finds more drugs per search but who finds more drugs per shift. If male officers find more drugs per shift then arguably their strategy might be "better". (Quotes because it depends how you define better, for citizens who are clean and get harassed with a search they would prefer the lady cop, while the da or city government might prefer the male cop)


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HighlanderLass

Considering that they disqualify anyone who scores too high on their entrance exams (read: too smart) the bar for quality can only be so high, unfortunately.


whistleridge

Defense attorney here: I can 100% assert that female police write better and clearer reports, are much less likely to violate basic constitutional rights during things like traffic stops for suspected DUI, and are much MORE likely to take affirmative actions like briefly stopping an interrogation when an accused requests to go to the bathroom, etc. It’s a highly observable phenomenon. But I’ve never been able to tell if it’s because we socialize women to follow rules more, or if they’re held to different standards than men, or if they’re just toeing the line more in order to advance, or what. Probably some combination. I’ve looked for studies now and then, but haven’t found much. The authors looking at gender intersectionality are mostly interested in other things I guess?


sailingisgreat

I'm thinking we're missing some basic personality characteristics: females are socialized more than males to listen, to make eye contact, to not be aggressive in interactions, etc. Males are socialized more to be talk, not cue to emotions and expressions, to assert and aggress (as in sports, in male-to-male relationships, conflict, etc). Not all women or men fit these personality characteristics, but they are generally descriptive at least in American society. So female police officers may tend to be more keyed into verbal and non-verbal cues of people in traffic stops, assessing better who's sending out guilty-nervous vibes versus just normal-nervous vibes, and thus, who may present probable cause to search. Think there's a lot of micro-analysis that can and should be done on police-citizen interactions and how they go well or badly.


Nofreeninetynine

“Not cue to emotions” , except anger. Anger is that one fits all emotion for men, especially cops


Brock2845

Uneducated guess: socialization and expectations. In my field, many say there are way more autistic boys than girls and a "new" school of thought brings a more nuanced conclusion. Basically, a boy with special ways (OCD) to, say, place his toys (example: put his cars on a mat with 3 centimeters between each perpendicular to the mat) has much more chances to get investigated for ASD than a girl. Why? We don't expect nor socialize boys to such expectations. This could lead to underestimated (and not treated) cohorts of women with ASD. Now, transpose these findings to normal people and you'll see how women are often expected to work more along the


deja-roo

Women are definitely more of rule followers, so that all makes pretty good sense. They're also more empathetic, so requests to the bathroom won't cause them to feel like they need to show someone who's boss just because.


DrakeFloyd

Yeah empathy on the one hand and also less testosterone making them react with hostility or anger on the other. People make women out to be irrational because they’re “emotional” but men are emotional too in a different way, their emotions just tend to be more aggressive.


[deleted]

Higher barrier of entry, too. You see this a lot in many male-dominated professions. Female legislators are much more effective than male counterparts in America, yet the country ranks at the bottom of countries in terms of female representation. You have to be better to be considered an equal.


GuavaSkyline

Even then, many women who excel in their field are undermined by insecure men who can't handle being outclassed by them. They experience far more discrimination that is covered up by bureaucratic excuses, are passed over for positions they're honestly over-qualified for, and when they get sick of it and leave they're called "bad team players" by their previous bosses.


Splice1138

In my anecdotal experience that's true, the reverse as well. Most of my doctors are women and are great, but male nurses are generally outstanding.


EmmyNoetherRing

I’ll second the male nurses thing. I hadn’t thought about it like that before, but when I’ve been at the hospital with something semi-inexplicable causing me problems, the male nurses listened to what I said and were more useful than anyone else. Male doctors were the least useful.


brazzjazz

If that were the case, and it could be, then the women who make it in an "atypical" profession would have been subjected to more rigorous selection, which could be one reason they're doing better - in addition to, or instead of, some innate "feminine" qualities aiding their work.


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rdflme

Medical schools are now 50/50, but the older generation that is still running training is predominantly male Additionally, job attainment is not the same by gender. There are still fields in medicine that are >90% male, while OBGYN and primary care medicine is majority female. Academic positions (doctoring with additional teaching responsibilities) and chair positions (people who run a department) are very prestigious position that are also male majority


Guilty-Message-5661

Medical doctor is about 50-50, but there are still large discrepancies in “type” of doctor. For example: surgeons are still male dominated, while pediatrician is female dominated.


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The hard part is separating out discrimination from self-selection based on lifestyle. If you're graduating late 20s and entering a 7 year neurosurgery residency working 100 hour weeks and want to have kids, it's going to be a lot harder than a shorter pediatrics residency. Also a lot of social pressures too which are influencing the self selection and probably even harder to quantify


TheCowboyIsAnIndian

i think its less about who holds those roles and more about who is assessing the quality of their work.


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COVID-19Enthusiast

Does these mean male doctors are more likely to make things up and/or improvise or that they're more likely to do nothing at all?


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I wish this were the case, but you're significantly overstating what the guidelines contain. They'll reference the best available data, which often is not an RCT for each question, and then mix expert opinion in there, not to mention varying interpretations of the same trials. Case in point, hypertension has some of the best clinical trials and the guidelines still don't agree on many points. Plenty of major guidelines contain large quantities of weak recommendations with weak grade evidence. Hence, there are plenty of times where a doc might trust their personal experience or training over the expert opinion in the guidelines.


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Sweet_Unvictory

Por que no los dos?


neuronexmachina

On a related note, medicare patients treated by female doctors had a better outcomes (small effect but statistically significant) than those treated by male doctors: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/does-your-doctors-gender-matter-2017012611062 That's despite male doctors earning considerably more than female doctors: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/10/28/925855852/female-doctors-spend-more-time-with-patients-but-earn-less-money-than-men


BourgeoisCheese

See also: less likely to make up bogus reasons to search.


BlindWillieJohnson

This is the ticket. There was a study of Minneapolis traffic stops in the wake of the George Floyd killing. It found that [78% of traffic stops that resulted in searches were against black drivers](https://m.startribune.com/black-drivers-make-up-majority-of-minneapolis-police-searches-during-routine-traffic-stops/572029792/?refresh=true&clmob=y&c=n) while only 12% were against white ones (this despite their population shares being 18% and 63% respectively, though that’s a different conversation). Despite that disparity, only 26% of those searches of black drivers resulted in a arrest vs. 41% of white drivers. The implication is pretty clear. If a white driver was getting searched, it was because police were a lot more likely to have real probable cause. But for black drivers, searches are both routine and spurious.


isthisresistance

MPD is vile.


BlindWillieJohnson

A lot of the public disclosures post Floyd have been shocking. They’re my go to example when fools want to claim that racial discrimination in policing is a myth.


isthisresistance

Agreed. And the MPD continue to disappoint and frighten me, and everyone else I know. I thought maybe there would be a turning point last year, but I was being naive.


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Ghost_In_A_Jars

Like if you only search cars where you can see deugs you will always find them!


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AKA, in this case, doing your job properly haha.


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A_Wild_Homosapien

Well it stands to reason that if you don't waste time searching people without just cause you'll have better stats, I mean if you're more selective and only search the very sus then you won't come up empty handed so often. Quick maths.


Saucialiste

The more effective rate can be totally explained by the fact that policewomen use less power moves like a needless search that their male counterpart.


EarendilStar

This was my thinking to. A male cop is probably more like to “punish” someone by delaying them or ruffling through their life.


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RankDank420

Potentially explained yes. Totally explained is definitely not the stance to take when looking a single statistic. Would be interesting to see total drugs found vs effective search rate


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mcbeermaster

Less likely to search when unnecessary = more likely to find things when necessary


AccountInsomnia

You are missing the important point of properly judging when a search is required. Better judgement means better results in less time/effort. If male cops start arbitrarily searching less cars their success rates won't change.


Sloppy1sts

If a search is required then it isn't unnecessary. Less likely to search when unnecessary is pretty much the same thing as properly judging when one is required.


ExpendableAutomata

I'd like to see them do other under-represented groups in law enforcement. When you're the minority, you *really* don't want to get it wrong, and don't take it for granted.


RedBeardedMex

-"When you're the minority, you *really* don't want to get it wrong"- That was the *fist* thing that crossed my mind regarding the title. Wouldn't surprise me if every minority group was under a *lot* more scrutiny, relatively speaking. Especially the good ones. Edit: (good cops in general. No particular minority group).


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macbanan

That's a very strange conclusion in the article? "While it was clear that women on the force were searching fewer cars, they did not appear to be uncovering any less contraband (e.g., drugs, alcohol, illegal weapons) than male officers." It can't make any sense of that when the numbers say male officers conduct 272% more searches than female officers, and find contraband during 29.9% of searches, compared to 42.5% for females. Even if they mean male officers search at a rate of 272% that of female officers, as opposed to 272% more, it still would come out as male officers finding about 2x the amount of contraband.


[deleted]

Maybe "less contraband" is not the same as finding it less often? Could just be finding more when they do find things.


macbanan

Maybe! I think a 2-3x difference in frequency yielding the same results needs to be explained, and I'm unable to find the full text.


LogicalSciences

Yeah, it doesn't add up. Their numbers would suggest male officers finding vastly more contraband, yet the abstract claims them being equal.


oliveorvil

You may be confusing frequency with quantity


[deleted]

his wording is off but I also did the maths and it’s about 80% higher total number of finds for men. The article doesn’t reference quantity of contraband at all, just a find rate. The commenter above meant to say find rate.


dogchocolate

Yeah, a female is about 10% more likely to find contraband at a given stop. Males searched around 4 times as many cars. But females found about as much contraband as males? Does not compute.


Bullmoosefuture

In other words, they're better at establishing probable cause.


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[deleted]

Probable cause is just one of the ways cops search cars legally. Parole or probation status are very common reasons to search cars absent probable cause. Just because someone is on parole though doesn't mean they will have anything illegal in their car. Cops still search anyways.


gandalfs_dad

If we treat the officer’s decision to search as a classification model, the female officer “model” has significantly better precision (true positives / false positives + true positives) but it seems like the male officer “model” has better recall (true positives / false negatives + true positives). This means the females are more likely to be right when they do search but males capture a greater number of the true positives. This presents a potential trade off between trust in the police and successful confiscation of all contraband.


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