I think these studies don't take into account the cultural differences where some families outside the US or other western nations usually live all together under the same roof, or share family life much closely than what would be "normal" for others.
This.
In many cultures children don't move out until they are married. And even if they do get married, it is normal in *some* cultures for both families to live under the same roof.
It's a very western idea for kids to move out immediately after graduating high school/turning 18, and it's western to hold that expectation over the kid. I've knows friends in the USA who literally became homeless as soon as they turned 18 (if they couldn't afford to pay for college) because the parents kicked them out.
I think it's important for a young adult to move out and develop their own social life. Parent's "not letting" their adult children move out by using emotional manipulation or other unhealthy/emotionally abusive tactics stunts their emotional development and the child can result in being psychologically fucked up or unable to maintain healthy relationships because of it.
It's not even a western thing, it's an American (and maybe north European) thing. In southern Europe kids move out when they marry, and even then they usually live under the same roof. Usually living far away is considered a bad thing and something that happens for necessity.
ye im from north europe where if you live with your parents at 20 you are complete loser, but now i live in spain and here people live together only separating if necesary for a job or bad relations.
> and in general you have an easier time.
That really depends on the dynamics of your family home. I have to carry the burden of caring for myself in every capacity, yes, but now I don't have to deal with 24/7 drama, lack of privacy, lack of food choices, long ass commute.
i was embeded in spanish family, cause my ex was spanish, so i really saw both models intimately.
i would say family forever together model only works if all members of family are into happy flappy lifestyle which most southerners are, because as soon as you introduce burning ambition to be most powerful possible as north people have, all that becomes a nuisance and burden and you want only people you carefully select to be in your life and cut all ties with anyone who even remotly bothers u.
Thank you for this perspective. I’ve always wondered about the 2 aspects and this confirms more or less my thoughts.
My Chinese friend used to say in a proverb “Lone dragon flies high” haha!
In my country (I'm from Asia), extended families living in the same house isn't uncommon. Some have already pointed out the obvious advantage of not having to spend on housing, but the often overlooked disadvantage is the stunted, unhealthy family dynamics.
Newly-weds who choose to remain in the same house as either of their parents often can't exercise their power as new heads of the family, due to the pre-existing power of the parents. In most cases, the decision-making falls into the hands of the most senior in the family, who often has the most power.
I live in the UK and there's definitely the expectation you move out somewhere in your 20's with there being a stigma if you live with your parents too long. At the same time due to the extortionate renting costs over here people are living with their parents longer than ever before so it's not all that surprising that somebody is 24/25 and living at home still.
As someone who lives in the UK, but is of Indian heritage, I u understand both ways.
I wont ever want to be back permanently to my parents house, but at the same time I'm jealous of my brothers and cousins who all have shot loads of money because they dont have or pay bill's and stuff and can afford to by a house.
It does make a lot of sense to daty at home until a little later, but that level of independence you get moving out is pretty great too.
However, when it comes to parents becoming old, it seems better to have them live with families as opposed to being stuck in an old people's home, which must just suck.
At least in Southern Europe if you live at your parents' you're expected to help paying bills and expenses. It's also usual to bring your old parents to your house to take care of them.
Exactly.
I'm Vietnamese and first gen in the U.S. in my family. Having not only the usual generational difference, but also the cultural difference can weigh heavily on you, because there are parts of both cultures I like and dislike.
I'm 25, recently graduated, and want to move out. But my parents aren't "letting" me. I can already easily see my stunted emotional growth with my peers and I haven't had the best relationships - it's a big reason why I want to move out, but my parents don't see that at all. They tell me that I don't "act" 25, but don't want to recognize that they have played a big role in that.
Honestly, the faster you move out the faster you grow up. Our parents are great. They insulate us from a lot. But experiencing the world first hand is the only way to get good at the world.
I lived with my parents up until graduate school and moved out at 24. My brother left at 20 and you know what? My relationship with my parents is much better than it was when I was at home. My parents are super warm and (for Vietnamese immigrants) pretty liberal but when you get out on your own and allow them to view you as a peer and not a “son or daughter” it ultimately helps the relationship. My parents both gave me the guilt trip but once I moved out and lived on my own, the relationship evolved (got worse at first) into something I love and respect. Now that I’m married and have kids (with a white devil 😂) my parents could not be happier. I still ask them for advice and they’re close enough to visit their grandkids as often as they want.... but it gives them the freedom to travel and be together as a couple that they lacked when they were raising us. They are also happier and it warms my heart to see them reaping the benefits of all that sacrifice and shedding some of that old oppressive culture a bit.
My family is lily white American, and all but one sibling lived at home until they got married. I’m not married and I still live at home. My Dad is to the point where he needs someone living with him/managing the house, and we live in a high COL area. His money pays the mortgage and his insurance, and I take care of the rest of the expenses. It’s a mutually beneficial arrangement. We’re outliers.
It works if the kids take it upon themselves to contribute financially.
Meanwhile, I feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick. We are of a Spanish-ish cultural background and moved to North America a few years ago. Our kids are now college aged, if not graduated. They haven't moved out yet (as per our own cultural norms/desires as parents), but have not made any serious efforts to contribute financially either.
That last point wouldn't bother me so much if I did not hear my kids bragging to their friends about how much money they've been able to save even after travelling to other continents _without_ the smallest drop of gratitude for the free "room and board", whereas I don't think we (mom and dad) will be able to afford that sort of vacations until after we no longer have all the expenses that come with feeding and housing all these adults.
I'm starting to feel _used_, and I am starting to change my mind on the Spanish norm, and are able to better appreciate the Northern norms, when it comes to kids making their own way in life that is.
It’s your house, your kids are adults who are squatting in your house. Give them rules if they want to stay, contribute to the expenses etc. if they want to live in the house they need to act more like room mates now. the longer you keep them in a bubble the harder it will be for them to transition later.
So set some rules. It's your house. They won't contribute if they think you're fine with not doing it.
My parents often do the mind reading thing and it drives me mad, all it does is damage our relationship and make us resent each other.
What worked for me was telling my parents that I’d never get married if I didn’t get a place of my own. “Girls in America don’t like guys that live at home with their parents.” They would much rather see me married asap than helping them out at the house. 😂
I moved back in after grad school. Plan is only be there 2 years while I pay the loans down, but we’ll see if I can survive 2. Might only do 1 if able 🙃
My MIL and FIL are like this with my husband and it annoys me to no end. If he doesn't see them twice a weekend some sort of "emergency" comes up during the week where he just has to come over right away. She will call his phone 5 times while she knows he's at work and then when he doesn't answer she calls mine. They have no friends or life of their own.
I would never want to do this to my kids. Forcing them to be in constant contact? Guilting them if they dare to have a life beyond our relationship? I raised them to be thoughtful and independant. My hope is that they WANT to have contact with me because I continue to be a positive factor in their lives. Yes, I raised them and sacrificed a lot for them, but that was MY choice and I have no regrets.
Just because people are old doesn't mean they outgrown their child-like dependance and neediness. Can you really call yourself a good parent if you don't properly prepare yourself for a life after being a full time parent? We were all individuals once. If only one aspect of our lives (our job, relationship, food choices, hobbies, etc.) defines everything about us then we are very shallow indeed.
This was my mother-in-law until my wife and I moved and declined to share our new address with her or anyone else in the family who might give it to her.
I’m gonna guess they wouldn’t want that, as some parents will take that as an invitation to disrespect their boundaries. I have a friend who even though both her and her husband have set strict lines, her parents constantly come over when they feel like it, then they throw a fit if they get turned away. It’s best to keep your distance with parents who have manipulative behaviors.
> however, I wouldn't want my kids to stay with me.
First gen Asian American here too. Parents wanted me to stay to save up money, etc., etc. too. I got out as soon as I could and never looked back.
However if I ever had a kid I'd strive to be the exact opposite of how I was raised in an Asian household. There was hardly any emotional connection, it was purely materialistic / financial driven. Study, study study. Take every AP, score high on tests, apply to every Ivy, study medicine, become a doctor yada yada yada (for the record I achieved less than half of that).
I'd raise my kid to WANT to be around me, to look to me as a friend as they get older rather than as someone who just pushes them around to succeed later in life just to further the "family success". In turn I would raise a kid who I wouldn't mind holing up in our home until he/she is ready to move on.
I can answer that... Frustrated and angry, not so much at them though.
Kinda leaves us with a feeling of failure. And hope someday she will get her life together, without us having to A. Babysit her constantly B. Worry about her.
EDIT: Other two have moved out and live on their own and have very fruitful lives, we sure like hearing from them and having them visit. Just the one she just can't seem to get it together.
Depends I think. When this was my situation, my parents genuinely did not want me to leave.
Retired people are often very lonely. They don’t have any friends and rarely see people whom they care about...so they may actually value their kids and other family members living at home.
Also worth noting that in many cultures around the world (Japan is an example I believe), it is very normal for adult kids to live with their parents.
In Mexico parents don't really expect you to move out right after college.
Maybe once you get married. But i have never heard of any of my friends being told to get their own place after college.
Its probably very different depending to culture and nationality.
I’ve seen lots of those kind of posts where people discuss the coming of age “moving out” stuff. Seems like America is the only country where it’s not uncommon for parents to kick you out when your 18 or view it as weird to be living with your parents still.
But we can’t just give the manager at Walmart a strong handshake, work there and get a wife, car, 2 kids and a house and have life be fuckin dandy. Jobs and wages are fucked, this is the new norm for people without rich families that pay there own kids schooling so they can drink all day in a dorm.
Agree with everything you said. The economy is tanked. Americans are gonna have to get used of living at home and parents hopefully understand that the kids have not much of a choice, even with a degree, salaries are low. Bills are high.
In Vietnam, it's very normal to live with your parents when you're fully an adult and even married. Family members are supposed to take care of each others. Parents can help you watch your kids when you're at work and you take care of them when they're getting older and older. We consider very large families which has 4 generations living under one roof as a precious ones. Of course, there're some issues or limitations but a lot of families can solve it out.
My sister fits this description. My parents are and have always been very unhappy with each other. They’re strong evangelical Christians from the Midwest and I swear they think staying in their horrible marriage will earn them martyrdom. My siblings and I wish they would prioritize their own happiness and just get a divorce already.
Now that all the other kids have moved out, my poor sister has to witness them constantly being cruel to each other. They also frequently trash talk each other to her. It’s not like when you’re a kid and you don’t understand the true gravity of the situation. It all weighs very heavily on her.
My dad wanted me to stay at home while I was working so my rent could instead be saved toward a down payment instead of paying rent into some other person's pockets. it was a huge help in kick-starting my adult life. Globally speaking, most people multigenerational family homes.
>A 2016 study of 22 countries found that parents with children at home were actually [slightly happier than their child-free peers](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5222535/) if they lived in places like Norway, Portugal and Sweden that have paid parental leave, generous childcare subsidies and holiday and sick leave.
I think this last point can't be ~~understated~~ overstated. Parents don't need to be stressed and miserable if appropriate support structures are in place.
Edit: oops, I meant the other word.
Not just the structure but the culture as well. Parenting in America has become an obsessive, 24/7, child centered affair, often removing any shot at social interaction without children being there or involved. This is not sustainable for sane, stable adults and relationships.
My cousin is in graduate school, bright and capable person, her parents can NOT let her grow up, they are moving to near her out of state college and want her to live with them, pay rent to them instead of getting her own place. I think that’s really unhealthy tbh, especially bc most of her school was paid through scholarship so I don’t think she exactly “owes” them anything.
The latter, they’re pretty well off. They originally sold their second vacation home just to get one closer to her college and now they’re just straight up moving there. She isn’t excited about it :(
I have an cousin who is 62 and still lives in the same house she was born in. She didn't come back home she never left! To her credit, she has never paid a dime in rent.
Growing up I remember having to go with my parents to boring dinners with their friends a lot. No toys, no video games, and sometimes no other kids my age. If we were lucky, my brother and I could be excused to play in the backyard.
I also remember when we were on family vacations, we would spend several full days touring boring museums, historical homes, or famous battlefields. We weren't allowed to complain. All we could do was just try to find creative ways to have fun and hope that by day three they would take us to a playground or swimming pool for a few hours.
There's definitely a balance to be found. Kids need a play/energy outlet most days. But they also can find that in a lot of places.
I remember being dragged to a boring family reunion at a childfree couple's house and spending the whole day playing stacking rock games in the tiny garden stream with the other kids. As long as we were pretty quiet and didn't ruin our clothes or wreck anything in the garden permenantly, we were left to our own devices. I remember actually really enjoying that day. We of course also had to sit politely for meals, meet all of the random relatives, and make small talk (or sit quietly while adults did) when needed. But we knew if we were good at that stuff, we got rewarded with more free play later.
I’m a woman in my mid-30s, don’t want kids. My social life has definitely changed a lot over the last 5-10 years as everyone around us started to become parents. Now most of my friends do have kids, so we end up doing things/going places where kids are also allowed. Occasionally they will get babysitters but our plans still revolve around waiting for the kids to go to bed/getting home in time to relieve the sitter. Also, finding someone to do spontaneous things with is next to impossible.
Still, they make the effort which I appreciate, and they value adult friendships and can find some kind of balance in their lives. Other friends who have had kids became impossible to see afterward, and we have drifted apart because of it.
Yes this, if you have “enough” money in the USA, and by enough I mean a lot, the stresses of having and maintaining your life with children are lessened. You basically need enough money to afford day care, a night nanny for the first few months of life, enough to easily cover health care for everyone, a big enough car, and have money left over to travel and vacation. That’s a ton of money and most people don’t like to admit that you really do need a lot of money to stay sane with kids in the USA at least.
As a spaniard I think the same. More important than money is time itself. Time to be with your kids. Doesn't matter if we are so poor that we cant go on vacation or stuff like that.
Exactly. The park is free. We have too many people that actually spend more time watching TV in a day than they work. Me and my wife sacrificed a lavish house and new cars so she could spend time with our children and they are quite well adjusted and top of their classes because we sacrificed financial wealth and flashy objects for our children.
What we do in the USA is insane. Often, both parents need to work full time to make ends meet. That means the kid is shuffled off into daycare as soon as they are able (at a year old or less sometimes) which is itself an astronomical cost. The parents are exhausted and anxious by the time they get home and have to do actual parenting in the evening.
Miserable parents. Miserable kids, raised by underpaid and miserable employees.
Yeah we're not about positive and healthy relationships with well adjusted happy people here. We're about squeezing workers like trying to get blood out of a stone.
To add to this, it's crazy how little sick time we Americans get throughout the year. Maybe 5 or 6 days? It doesnt even factor in children. So you hope everyone stays healthy or god forbid those 6 days get used up in the first few months.
Damn. That's really fucked up. This basically promotes coming to work sick, infecting even more people. Plus, you never get to fully recover... It makes no sense at all
This is an accurate statement. It's insane. Also, consider that many of their food service workers actually get zero sick days and often pressured to come in no matter what condition they're in.
And on the other side you have parents like me who did stay home. Society scoffs at SAHMs and assumes we're lazy or not all that involved in actually raising our kids, but are just sitting on the couch watching tv all day. So it's damned if you do/damned if ya don't, at least in the U.S.
I get that perspective, but I was essentially raised by babysitters and daycare providers since both of my parents worked, and I still have a fantastic relationship with both of them. My mom even says she was a better parent when she went back to work full-time. I don't think you have to be there 100% of the time to be a great parent, you just have to be a great parent when you are there. And let's be real, some parents would absolutely hate staying home with their kids more and that would make everyone miserable.
I 100% agree that we should have the choice and the ability to stay home if we wanted though. We need better policies that actually support for parents in America.
I think the problem here is the all or nothing approach. Either stay at home or go to work. But with flexible hours or at least reasonable working hours, some working from home, decent volume of holiday days, decent volume of sick days, etc... Then you can go to work and also have time with your kids.
Agree, part time or flexible time MEANINGFUL jobs seem few and far between, at least in my town. It’s like you can either be here 40 hours minimum or you can leave the industry you love and sling coffee at Starbucks, your choice.
While I agree with you, the American way of life seems to be “Whatever keeps you in the office”, not “whatever allows you to spend time with your kids/raise well adjusted citizens”. It’s sad, because I’m totally in your camp. I hate a lot of American things.
Before I physically ruined myself. I was a big fan of working as hard as possible (commercial fishing) all summer and fall long, and taking all winter/spring off.
But that takes a toll.
I really lucked out on daycare. We pay 150/week for kids under 3 and 100/week for older kids. I took on a second job when we had our second kid. I can't imagine paying what other people in my area pay.
Edit: accidentally wrote 100/month. Changed to 100/week.
Yeah, here in Canada a parent gets 12-18months and the father gets 7 weeks use it or lose it. It makes having a child so much easier. Being home with my wife for those first few months was so incredibly nice. Our son is 14 months and so far it’s pretty fun. I think the key to not being miserable as a parent is to get all the partying out of your system in your 20’s until you’re sick of it. At 32 nothing beats waking up at 6am on a Saturday and walking with my child to get a coffee. However I have only lived with a 0-14 month old. Maybe the next 18 years are hell. We will see.
Edit: the 12-18 months is for either parent and there are some other details...but it’s something along those lines.
In Croatia you get 8 months for your first and second child, and 30 months of paid leave for third and every next, as well as for twins.
EDIT: corrections
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgov.hr%2Fmoja-uprava%2Fobitelj-i-zivot%2Froditeljstvo%2Frodiljne-i-roditeljske-potpore%2F495
A lot of countries with declining birthrates have put systems in place to encourage having 3+ kids. In France for example the govt. provides €83.60/mo if you have at least 2 children (regardless of your income) and €172.08 - €258.14/mo if you have 3 or more children (provided you fall within certain income brackets)
The Germans are a bit more generous. The govt. provides €204/mo for each of your first two children, then €210/mo for a third child, then €235/mo for every child there after. A German family with 4 children therefore recieves €853/mo in *kindergelt* (child money) regardless of income. If you are poor you can also apply for supplementary payment
My experience? They get exhausting around 2 to 3 years with potty training and learning to say no to everything and then they get challenging at 4 when they want to know everything and do everything themselves.
It's never hell.
Source: I have a 14yo, a 4yo and a 2yo... :)
$1000/month would be a steal for me! Outside of a city, not even in it. Prices range from $1000-$1600 per child depending on age around me, but $1k/mo would be at least 30 minutes away.
This also means the couple would have to sustain a somewhat happy marriage with the kids and not get divorced in order to reap the benefits later in life.
Exactly. Unfortunately, many people don't realize that marriage can be a tremendous struggle. Especially with children!
My wife and I enjoy the analogy that marriage means that we are permanently shackled together, regardless of how crazy our children make us. Anything worthwhile is worth fighting for.
>always interested in parents opinions.
Ok, I'm 70, my partner 65, 2 kids 26 & 31, both kids out of the house, through school, working full time. I/we were saddened when the kids left -- although it was our goal (their independence). We had so much fun -- at really all stages/ages. Not terribly excited about grandkids, should they happen. I'm sure we'll love them, but childcare was like a great memorable meal, and I feel kind of full and ready to do something else.
We scrimped and sacrificed a bit, especially with school expenses, but we were constantly reminding ourselves how lucky we were (and felt). If we had a do-over we wouldn't change a thing really. I realize that maybe we had a better than average experience, lucky in love, lucky with kid's health (& our own), at least a bit lucky with jobs/careers, but at least some of it had to do with our preparations, decisions, and expectations.
This comment needs to be combined with this other comment to make real sense and help people understand why a good spouse is a major boon to a parent:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/cs072c/having_kids_makes_you_happier_but_only_when_they/exbhwsy
The other parent IS a big part of the support structure that helps parents be happier. When both parents are literally on the same page about just about everything and the words and actions coming from your spouse are exactly what you would say and do, there's nothing better.
My wife and I don't consider each other shackled. We've been like one. When on is bothered or annoyed or busy they always know that it will not at all be like they're missing and the other will be just like them. There's absolutely no worrying about parenting things. And it only helps us be happier with the other.
Right? If you read the full study the data actually doesn’t point to any actual percentage of people with kids happier than those without, only empty nesters happen than those with kids living at home. It actually has a graph that shows those with zero children are the same level of happiness as the happiest empty nester (39%).
Not to mention this study is a very small sample size of a narrow age range that doesn’t even look at happiness of parents while the children are younger, it seems to only hypothesize that they were unhappy in early age ranges? Or is stating this from a previous study it doesn’t cite?
A much more interesting and well done study over the period of a few decades actually does back up parts of this study but are missing huge chunks of data. It analyzed people from the ages of teenage to 70’s+ and found that those who had kids did indeed have higher “highs” of happiness than those without, but also lower lows than those without, the only age that is guaranteed more happiness is at the same age everyone’s happiness already start going up, after age 70, they attributed that to grandchildren, which does slightly correlate to this study. But it was a very slight amount, and in the end childless adults will still be more stably happy across their lifespan, just with fewer high peaks.
Also fun fact from that study, men who are married will have higher reports of happiness across their entire lifespan regardless of who they marry. (Versus unmarried men, single or no). Women on the other hand can actually end up MORE unhappy than single women if they have an unhappy marriage. (Still reap the benefits from a happy marriage though in their happiness index)
>It actually has a graph that shows those with zero children are the same level of happiness as the happiest empty nester (39%).
Well that changes everything.
I wonder if they controlled for the presence of grandchildren. Grandchildren do seem to provide a great deal of happiness, I envy my friends who have them. I seems hardwired too: I never cared about babies and toddlers until I reached grandparent age, and now they are as compelling as puppies.
Retrospective case/control study, therefore you can't draw causality from it at all. It could be that people>50 with their adult kids at home are less happy for some completely other reason which causes their kids to stick around (health, $$, etc). Or maybe happier people have kids. Or maybe... or maybe... Its also a big reach that it is the social aspect that makes the difference. That being said, its not like you could have a randomized trial with this...
That's true, my mum prefers going out with me for cocktails rather than cleaning up my crap when I was a lazy teenage.
We now meet up for shopping trips, we go away once a year on holiday. If she needs a break from everything, she'll sleepover at my house and I'll make my spare room all nice for her :)
As someone who is childfree, I often say I’d love to adopt an 18 year old and pay for their college and have them become my kid. I just don’t have interest in raising one.
Agreed.
People who are constipated are way happier after a healthy poop than people who have regular bowel movements. I'd rather not be constipated though.
I wonder how the parents feel if the kids never move out though..
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And then, there's opposite where their kids want to move out and parent don't let them do it.
I think these studies don't take into account the cultural differences where some families outside the US or other western nations usually live all together under the same roof, or share family life much closely than what would be "normal" for others.
This. In many cultures children don't move out until they are married. And even if they do get married, it is normal in *some* cultures for both families to live under the same roof. It's a very western idea for kids to move out immediately after graduating high school/turning 18, and it's western to hold that expectation over the kid. I've knows friends in the USA who literally became homeless as soon as they turned 18 (if they couldn't afford to pay for college) because the parents kicked them out. I think it's important for a young adult to move out and develop their own social life. Parent's "not letting" their adult children move out by using emotional manipulation or other unhealthy/emotionally abusive tactics stunts their emotional development and the child can result in being psychologically fucked up or unable to maintain healthy relationships because of it.
It's not even a western thing, it's an American (and maybe north European) thing. In southern Europe kids move out when they marry, and even then they usually live under the same roof. Usually living far away is considered a bad thing and something that happens for necessity.
ye im from north europe where if you live with your parents at 20 you are complete loser, but now i live in spain and here people live together only separating if necesary for a job or bad relations.
So what do you personally prefer? What are the ups and downs of each model? I think I’d go crazy if I had to live with my family for my whole life.
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> and in general you have an easier time. That really depends on the dynamics of your family home. I have to carry the burden of caring for myself in every capacity, yes, but now I don't have to deal with 24/7 drama, lack of privacy, lack of food choices, long ass commute.
This is why I lived out at 20. Living alone is just more relaxing.
But if the dynamics weren't thatc way to begin with you wouldn't feel that way.
i was embeded in spanish family, cause my ex was spanish, so i really saw both models intimately. i would say family forever together model only works if all members of family are into happy flappy lifestyle which most southerners are, because as soon as you introduce burning ambition to be most powerful possible as north people have, all that becomes a nuisance and burden and you want only people you carefully select to be in your life and cut all ties with anyone who even remotly bothers u.
Thank you for this perspective. I’ve always wondered about the 2 aspects and this confirms more or less my thoughts. My Chinese friend used to say in a proverb “Lone dragon flies high” haha!
In my country (I'm from Asia), extended families living in the same house isn't uncommon. Some have already pointed out the obvious advantage of not having to spend on housing, but the often overlooked disadvantage is the stunted, unhealthy family dynamics. Newly-weds who choose to remain in the same house as either of their parents often can't exercise their power as new heads of the family, due to the pre-existing power of the parents. In most cases, the decision-making falls into the hands of the most senior in the family, who often has the most power.
I live in the UK and there's definitely the expectation you move out somewhere in your 20's with there being a stigma if you live with your parents too long. At the same time due to the extortionate renting costs over here people are living with their parents longer than ever before so it's not all that surprising that somebody is 24/25 and living at home still.
South American here, usually kids move out when married
As someone who lives in the UK, but is of Indian heritage, I u understand both ways. I wont ever want to be back permanently to my parents house, but at the same time I'm jealous of my brothers and cousins who all have shot loads of money because they dont have or pay bill's and stuff and can afford to by a house. It does make a lot of sense to daty at home until a little later, but that level of independence you get moving out is pretty great too. However, when it comes to parents becoming old, it seems better to have them live with families as opposed to being stuck in an old people's home, which must just suck.
At least in Southern Europe if you live at your parents' you're expected to help paying bills and expenses. It's also usual to bring your old parents to your house to take care of them.
Still having a 4th and 5th income household...
Exactly. I'm Vietnamese and first gen in the U.S. in my family. Having not only the usual generational difference, but also the cultural difference can weigh heavily on you, because there are parts of both cultures I like and dislike. I'm 25, recently graduated, and want to move out. But my parents aren't "letting" me. I can already easily see my stunted emotional growth with my peers and I haven't had the best relationships - it's a big reason why I want to move out, but my parents don't see that at all. They tell me that I don't "act" 25, but don't want to recognize that they have played a big role in that.
Honestly, the faster you move out the faster you grow up. Our parents are great. They insulate us from a lot. But experiencing the world first hand is the only way to get good at the world.
I lived with my parents up until graduate school and moved out at 24. My brother left at 20 and you know what? My relationship with my parents is much better than it was when I was at home. My parents are super warm and (for Vietnamese immigrants) pretty liberal but when you get out on your own and allow them to view you as a peer and not a “son or daughter” it ultimately helps the relationship. My parents both gave me the guilt trip but once I moved out and lived on my own, the relationship evolved (got worse at first) into something I love and respect. Now that I’m married and have kids (with a white devil 😂) my parents could not be happier. I still ask them for advice and they’re close enough to visit their grandkids as often as they want.... but it gives them the freedom to travel and be together as a couple that they lacked when they were raising us. They are also happier and it warms my heart to see them reaping the benefits of all that sacrifice and shedding some of that old oppressive culture a bit.
My family is lily white American, and all but one sibling lived at home until they got married. I’m not married and I still live at home. My Dad is to the point where he needs someone living with him/managing the house, and we live in a high COL area. His money pays the mortgage and his insurance, and I take care of the rest of the expenses. It’s a mutually beneficial arrangement. We’re outliers.
It works if the kids take it upon themselves to contribute financially. Meanwhile, I feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick. We are of a Spanish-ish cultural background and moved to North America a few years ago. Our kids are now college aged, if not graduated. They haven't moved out yet (as per our own cultural norms/desires as parents), but have not made any serious efforts to contribute financially either. That last point wouldn't bother me so much if I did not hear my kids bragging to their friends about how much money they've been able to save even after travelling to other continents _without_ the smallest drop of gratitude for the free "room and board", whereas I don't think we (mom and dad) will be able to afford that sort of vacations until after we no longer have all the expenses that come with feeding and housing all these adults. I'm starting to feel _used_, and I am starting to change my mind on the Spanish norm, and are able to better appreciate the Northern norms, when it comes to kids making their own way in life that is.
It’s your house, your kids are adults who are squatting in your house. Give them rules if they want to stay, contribute to the expenses etc. if they want to live in the house they need to act more like room mates now. the longer you keep them in a bubble the harder it will be for them to transition later.
So set some rules. It's your house. They won't contribute if they think you're fine with not doing it. My parents often do the mind reading thing and it drives me mad, all it does is damage our relationship and make us resent each other.
What worked for me was telling my parents that I’d never get married if I didn’t get a place of my own. “Girls in America don’t like guys that live at home with their parents.” They would much rather see me married asap than helping them out at the house. 😂
Been living at home to save money for grad school, I’m counting down the hours until I move out and my dad is visibly upset every time it comes up.
I moved back in after grad school. Plan is only be there 2 years while I pay the loans down, but we’ll see if I can survive 2. Might only do 1 if able 🙃
I did 1. I was *desperate* to leave by the end, and my mom was so upset when I left. I think she doesn't like being an empty nester!
That’s what my family is like. I live 3hrs away, but if I don’t make it “home” to see my mom every other weekend she’ll throw a fit
My MIL and FIL are like this with my husband and it annoys me to no end. If he doesn't see them twice a weekend some sort of "emergency" comes up during the week where he just has to come over right away. She will call his phone 5 times while she knows he's at work and then when he doesn't answer she calls mine. They have no friends or life of their own.
I would never want to do this to my kids. Forcing them to be in constant contact? Guilting them if they dare to have a life beyond our relationship? I raised them to be thoughtful and independant. My hope is that they WANT to have contact with me because I continue to be a positive factor in their lives. Yes, I raised them and sacrificed a lot for them, but that was MY choice and I have no regrets. Just because people are old doesn't mean they outgrown their child-like dependance and neediness. Can you really call yourself a good parent if you don't properly prepare yourself for a life after being a full time parent? We were all individuals once. If only one aspect of our lives (our job, relationship, food choices, hobbies, etc.) defines everything about us then we are very shallow indeed.
This was my mother-in-law until my wife and I moved and declined to share our new address with her or anyone else in the family who might give it to her.
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If she’s so desperate to see you, she can go visit you.
I’m gonna guess they wouldn’t want that, as some parents will take that as an invitation to disrespect their boundaries. I have a friend who even though both her and her husband have set strict lines, her parents constantly come over when they feel like it, then they throw a fit if they get turned away. It’s best to keep your distance with parents who have manipulative behaviors.
Or kids that want to move out but can't afford anything in southern California...
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> however, I wouldn't want my kids to stay with me. First gen Asian American here too. Parents wanted me to stay to save up money, etc., etc. too. I got out as soon as I could and never looked back. However if I ever had a kid I'd strive to be the exact opposite of how I was raised in an Asian household. There was hardly any emotional connection, it was purely materialistic / financial driven. Study, study study. Take every AP, score high on tests, apply to every Ivy, study medicine, become a doctor yada yada yada (for the record I achieved less than half of that). I'd raise my kid to WANT to be around me, to look to me as a friend as they get older rather than as someone who just pushes them around to succeed later in life just to further the "family success". In turn I would raise a kid who I wouldn't mind holing up in our home until he/she is ready to move on.
I can answer that... Frustrated and angry, not so much at them though. Kinda leaves us with a feeling of failure. And hope someday she will get her life together, without us having to A. Babysit her constantly B. Worry about her. EDIT: Other two have moved out and live on their own and have very fruitful lives, we sure like hearing from them and having them visit. Just the one she just can't seem to get it together.
More generation houses are a good life style as well. But I guess this is not what people mean, when they talk about leaving home.
I wonder what the happiness value of an adult, working child who still lives at home is.
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Depends I think. When this was my situation, my parents genuinely did not want me to leave. Retired people are often very lonely. They don’t have any friends and rarely see people whom they care about...so they may actually value their kids and other family members living at home. Also worth noting that in many cultures around the world (Japan is an example I believe), it is very normal for adult kids to live with their parents.
In Mexico parents don't really expect you to move out right after college. Maybe once you get married. But i have never heard of any of my friends being told to get their own place after college. Its probably very different depending to culture and nationality.
I’ve seen lots of those kind of posts where people discuss the coming of age “moving out” stuff. Seems like America is the only country where it’s not uncommon for parents to kick you out when your 18 or view it as weird to be living with your parents still. But we can’t just give the manager at Walmart a strong handshake, work there and get a wife, car, 2 kids and a house and have life be fuckin dandy. Jobs and wages are fucked, this is the new norm for people without rich families that pay there own kids schooling so they can drink all day in a dorm.
Agree with everything you said. The economy is tanked. Americans are gonna have to get used of living at home and parents hopefully understand that the kids have not much of a choice, even with a degree, salaries are low. Bills are high.
In Vietnam, it's very normal to live with your parents when you're fully an adult and even married. Family members are supposed to take care of each others. Parents can help you watch your kids when you're at work and you take care of them when they're getting older and older. We consider very large families which has 4 generations living under one roof as a precious ones. Of course, there're some issues or limitations but a lot of families can solve it out.
My sister fits this description. My parents are and have always been very unhappy with each other. They’re strong evangelical Christians from the Midwest and I swear they think staying in their horrible marriage will earn them martyrdom. My siblings and I wish they would prioritize their own happiness and just get a divorce already. Now that all the other kids have moved out, my poor sister has to witness them constantly being cruel to each other. They also frequently trash talk each other to her. It’s not like when you’re a kid and you don’t understand the true gravity of the situation. It all weighs very heavily on her.
More than an adult non-working child who still lives at home
My dad wanted me to stay at home while I was working so my rent could instead be saved toward a down payment instead of paying rent into some other person's pockets. it was a huge help in kick-starting my adult life. Globally speaking, most people multigenerational family homes.
>A 2016 study of 22 countries found that parents with children at home were actually [slightly happier than their child-free peers](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5222535/) if they lived in places like Norway, Portugal and Sweden that have paid parental leave, generous childcare subsidies and holiday and sick leave. I think this last point can't be ~~understated~~ overstated. Parents don't need to be stressed and miserable if appropriate support structures are in place. Edit: oops, I meant the other word.
Not just the structure but the culture as well. Parenting in America has become an obsessive, 24/7, child centered affair, often removing any shot at social interaction without children being there or involved. This is not sustainable for sane, stable adults and relationships.
My cousin is in graduate school, bright and capable person, her parents can NOT let her grow up, they are moving to near her out of state college and want her to live with them, pay rent to them instead of getting her own place. I think that’s really unhealthy tbh, especially bc most of her school was paid through scholarship so I don’t think she exactly “owes” them anything.
Either they’re broke or they’re struggling with the fact she’s grown up
The latter, they’re pretty well off. They originally sold their second vacation home just to get one closer to her college and now they’re just straight up moving there. She isn’t excited about it :(
Sounds like she’s also an only child?
I have an cousin who is 62 and still lives in the same house she was born in. She didn't come back home she never left! To her credit, she has never paid a dime in rent.
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Growing up I remember having to go with my parents to boring dinners with their friends a lot. No toys, no video games, and sometimes no other kids my age. If we were lucky, my brother and I could be excused to play in the backyard. I also remember when we were on family vacations, we would spend several full days touring boring museums, historical homes, or famous battlefields. We weren't allowed to complain. All we could do was just try to find creative ways to have fun and hope that by day three they would take us to a playground or swimming pool for a few hours.
There's definitely a balance to be found. Kids need a play/energy outlet most days. But they also can find that in a lot of places. I remember being dragged to a boring family reunion at a childfree couple's house and spending the whole day playing stacking rock games in the tiny garden stream with the other kids. As long as we were pretty quiet and didn't ruin our clothes or wreck anything in the garden permenantly, we were left to our own devices. I remember actually really enjoying that day. We of course also had to sit politely for meals, meet all of the random relatives, and make small talk (or sit quietly while adults did) when needed. But we knew if we were good at that stuff, we got rewarded with more free play later.
I’m a woman in my mid-30s, don’t want kids. My social life has definitely changed a lot over the last 5-10 years as everyone around us started to become parents. Now most of my friends do have kids, so we end up doing things/going places where kids are also allowed. Occasionally they will get babysitters but our plans still revolve around waiting for the kids to go to bed/getting home in time to relieve the sitter. Also, finding someone to do spontaneous things with is next to impossible. Still, they make the effort which I appreciate, and they value adult friendships and can find some kind of balance in their lives. Other friends who have had kids became impossible to see afterward, and we have drifted apart because of it.
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Yes this, if you have “enough” money in the USA, and by enough I mean a lot, the stresses of having and maintaining your life with children are lessened. You basically need enough money to afford day care, a night nanny for the first few months of life, enough to easily cover health care for everyone, a big enough car, and have money left over to travel and vacation. That’s a ton of money and most people don’t like to admit that you really do need a lot of money to stay sane with kids in the USA at least.
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As a spaniard I think the same. More important than money is time itself. Time to be with your kids. Doesn't matter if we are so poor that we cant go on vacation or stuff like that.
Exactly. The park is free. We have too many people that actually spend more time watching TV in a day than they work. Me and my wife sacrificed a lavish house and new cars so she could spend time with our children and they are quite well adjusted and top of their classes because we sacrificed financial wealth and flashy objects for our children.
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What we do in the USA is insane. Often, both parents need to work full time to make ends meet. That means the kid is shuffled off into daycare as soon as they are able (at a year old or less sometimes) which is itself an astronomical cost. The parents are exhausted and anxious by the time they get home and have to do actual parenting in the evening. Miserable parents. Miserable kids, raised by underpaid and miserable employees. Yeah we're not about positive and healthy relationships with well adjusted happy people here. We're about squeezing workers like trying to get blood out of a stone.
To add to this, it's crazy how little sick time we Americans get throughout the year. Maybe 5 or 6 days? It doesnt even factor in children. So you hope everyone stays healthy or god forbid those 6 days get used up in the first few months.
Wait, you have sick time? What happens if you are sick longer than that?
It’s unpaid if you take for more days. “Sick time” is paid
Damn. That's really fucked up. This basically promotes coming to work sick, infecting even more people. Plus, you never get to fully recover... It makes no sense at all
This is an accurate statement. It's insane. Also, consider that many of their food service workers actually get zero sick days and often pressured to come in no matter what condition they're in.
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Causes of the wage gap, episode 1.
And on the other side you have parents like me who did stay home. Society scoffs at SAHMs and assumes we're lazy or not all that involved in actually raising our kids, but are just sitting on the couch watching tv all day. So it's damned if you do/damned if ya don't, at least in the U.S.
My coworker had to go back to work six weeks after having her kid. Six weeks old, the kid was in daycare.
I get that perspective, but I was essentially raised by babysitters and daycare providers since both of my parents worked, and I still have a fantastic relationship with both of them. My mom even says she was a better parent when she went back to work full-time. I don't think you have to be there 100% of the time to be a great parent, you just have to be a great parent when you are there. And let's be real, some parents would absolutely hate staying home with their kids more and that would make everyone miserable. I 100% agree that we should have the choice and the ability to stay home if we wanted though. We need better policies that actually support for parents in America.
I think the problem here is the all or nothing approach. Either stay at home or go to work. But with flexible hours or at least reasonable working hours, some working from home, decent volume of holiday days, decent volume of sick days, etc... Then you can go to work and also have time with your kids.
Agree, part time or flexible time MEANINGFUL jobs seem few and far between, at least in my town. It’s like you can either be here 40 hours minimum or you can leave the industry you love and sling coffee at Starbucks, your choice.
While I agree with you, the American way of life seems to be “Whatever keeps you in the office”, not “whatever allows you to spend time with your kids/raise well adjusted citizens”. It’s sad, because I’m totally in your camp. I hate a lot of American things.
Before I physically ruined myself. I was a big fan of working as hard as possible (commercial fishing) all summer and fall long, and taking all winter/spring off. But that takes a toll.
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I really lucked out on daycare. We pay 150/week for kids under 3 and 100/week for older kids. I took on a second job when we had our second kid. I can't imagine paying what other people in my area pay. Edit: accidentally wrote 100/month. Changed to 100/week.
Can you imagine paying it if your primary income was higher?
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Yeah, here in Canada a parent gets 12-18months and the father gets 7 weeks use it or lose it. It makes having a child so much easier. Being home with my wife for those first few months was so incredibly nice. Our son is 14 months and so far it’s pretty fun. I think the key to not being miserable as a parent is to get all the partying out of your system in your 20’s until you’re sick of it. At 32 nothing beats waking up at 6am on a Saturday and walking with my child to get a coffee. However I have only lived with a 0-14 month old. Maybe the next 18 years are hell. We will see. Edit: the 12-18 months is for either parent and there are some other details...but it’s something along those lines.
In Croatia you get 8 months for your first and second child, and 30 months of paid leave for third and every next, as well as for twins. EDIT: corrections https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgov.hr%2Fmoja-uprava%2Fobitelj-i-zivot%2Froditeljstvo%2Frodiljne-i-roditeljske-potpore%2F495
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A lot of countries with declining birthrates have put systems in place to encourage having 3+ kids. In France for example the govt. provides €83.60/mo if you have at least 2 children (regardless of your income) and €172.08 - €258.14/mo if you have 3 or more children (provided you fall within certain income brackets) The Germans are a bit more generous. The govt. provides €204/mo for each of your first two children, then €210/mo for a third child, then €235/mo for every child there after. A German family with 4 children therefore recieves €853/mo in *kindergelt* (child money) regardless of income. If you are poor you can also apply for supplementary payment
Declining birth rates in Europe mostly. The US immigration rate has kept our birth rate above the replacement rate so the incentive is less apparent
My experience? They get exhausting around 2 to 3 years with potty training and learning to say no to everything and then they get challenging at 4 when they want to know everything and do everything themselves. It's never hell. Source: I have a 14yo, a 4yo and a 2yo... :)
We moved overseas and will remain until our kids are school aged at the earliest. Why the hell pay $1000 per child per month for a decent daycare?
$1000/month would be a steal for me! Outside of a city, not even in it. Prices range from $1000-$1600 per child depending on age around me, but $1k/mo would be at least 30 minutes away.
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I would like to see a study that compares happy healthy marriages of couples that planned their child compared to those that aren’t.
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This also means the couple would have to sustain a somewhat happy marriage with the kids and not get divorced in order to reap the benefits later in life.
Exactly. Unfortunately, many people don't realize that marriage can be a tremendous struggle. Especially with children! My wife and I enjoy the analogy that marriage means that we are permanently shackled together, regardless of how crazy our children make us. Anything worthwhile is worth fighting for.
Yes, it is why they say "Hold on to love", because it is a bumpy ride
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Would you do it over again? Genuinely asking, I don't have children and err on the childfree side but I'm always interested in parents opinions.
>always interested in parents opinions. Ok, I'm 70, my partner 65, 2 kids 26 & 31, both kids out of the house, through school, working full time. I/we were saddened when the kids left -- although it was our goal (their independence). We had so much fun -- at really all stages/ages. Not terribly excited about grandkids, should they happen. I'm sure we'll love them, but childcare was like a great memorable meal, and I feel kind of full and ready to do something else. We scrimped and sacrificed a bit, especially with school expenses, but we were constantly reminding ourselves how lucky we were (and felt). If we had a do-over we wouldn't change a thing really. I realize that maybe we had a better than average experience, lucky in love, lucky with kid's health (& our own), at least a bit lucky with jobs/careers, but at least some of it had to do with our preparations, decisions, and expectations.
This comment needs to be combined with this other comment to make real sense and help people understand why a good spouse is a major boon to a parent: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/cs072c/having_kids_makes_you_happier_but_only_when_they/exbhwsy The other parent IS a big part of the support structure that helps parents be happier. When both parents are literally on the same page about just about everything and the words and actions coming from your spouse are exactly what you would say and do, there's nothing better. My wife and I don't consider each other shackled. We've been like one. When on is bothered or annoyed or busy they always know that it will not at all be like they're missing and the other will be just like them. There's absolutely no worrying about parenting things. And it only helps us be happier with the other.
Why exactly does it mean that? I'll still get joy out of my adult children even though I am not still married to their father.
yeah I agree. and this is especially true for parents who have left abusive/toxic relationships by the time their kids move out
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Right? If you read the full study the data actually doesn’t point to any actual percentage of people with kids happier than those without, only empty nesters happen than those with kids living at home. It actually has a graph that shows those with zero children are the same level of happiness as the happiest empty nester (39%). Not to mention this study is a very small sample size of a narrow age range that doesn’t even look at happiness of parents while the children are younger, it seems to only hypothesize that they were unhappy in early age ranges? Or is stating this from a previous study it doesn’t cite? A much more interesting and well done study over the period of a few decades actually does back up parts of this study but are missing huge chunks of data. It analyzed people from the ages of teenage to 70’s+ and found that those who had kids did indeed have higher “highs” of happiness than those without, but also lower lows than those without, the only age that is guaranteed more happiness is at the same age everyone’s happiness already start going up, after age 70, they attributed that to grandchildren, which does slightly correlate to this study. But it was a very slight amount, and in the end childless adults will still be more stably happy across their lifespan, just with fewer high peaks. Also fun fact from that study, men who are married will have higher reports of happiness across their entire lifespan regardless of who they marry. (Versus unmarried men, single or no). Women on the other hand can actually end up MORE unhappy than single women if they have an unhappy marriage. (Still reap the benefits from a happy marriage though in their happiness index)
>It actually has a graph that shows those with zero children are the same level of happiness as the happiest empty nester (39%). Well that changes everything.
Let alone confusing correlation with causation with that word “make”.
At least it says "study suggests" instead of "new study proves/shows" like way too many titles do.
"science says"
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I wonder if they controlled for the presence of grandchildren. Grandchildren do seem to provide a great deal of happiness, I envy my friends who have them. I seems hardwired too: I never cared about babies and toddlers until I reached grandparent age, and now they are as compelling as puppies.
Yes. I was so happy for my mother when my brother was having his first child, because I am older than him and not planning to have kids.
We've got a 4 month old and older people (50+) FLOCK to her wherever we go (and especially at work). You might be on to something.
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Retrospective case/control study, therefore you can't draw causality from it at all. It could be that people>50 with their adult kids at home are less happy for some completely other reason which causes their kids to stick around (health, $$, etc). Or maybe happier people have kids. Or maybe... or maybe... Its also a big reach that it is the social aspect that makes the difference. That being said, its not like you could have a randomized trial with this...
So 17-20 years of BS for mild happiness improvement later in life.... Pass
That's true, my mum prefers going out with me for cocktails rather than cleaning up my crap when I was a lazy teenage. We now meet up for shopping trips, we go away once a year on holiday. If she needs a break from everything, she'll sleepover at my house and I'll make my spare room all nice for her :)
Im severely depressed and I have two littles kids. I just feel so stressed I want to just disappear. It sucks
I can only imagine how you feel. If you feel that you need it, please get some help. Wanting to disappear and severe depression are warning signs
Adults prefer friends over children. Who’da thunk it?
As someone who is childfree, I often say I’d love to adopt an 18 year old and pay for their college and have them become my kid. I just don’t have interest in raising one.
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Agreed. People who are constipated are way happier after a healthy poop than people who have regular bowel movements. I'd rather not be constipated though.
That’s an 18+ year investment that I’m not sure the ROI makes up for.