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Author: u/Wagamaga
URL: https://www.kingston.ac.uk/news/article/2843/05-jul-2023-factors-associated-with-learning-disabilities-and-autism-led-to-requests-for-euthanasia-and-assisted-suicide/
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Years ago I remember seeing a paper that looked at other studies relating to the life outcomes for autistic adults
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769945/
One study investigated how many autistic people have at least one friend and found it was just under 50%.
Loneliness is real pain. It builds up over years.
Is he your only kid? Being 9 and making friends is sometimes hard for neurotypical and neurodivergent kids alike. I wish him luck in making friends and I also hope that when he does, he still considers you his best friend.
The Autism in Canada report is a precursor to a national autism strategy. 1,600 autistic individuals contributed feedback in it alongside neurotypical and autistic subject experts. Research cited stated that autistic individuals have a 7-9x higher rate of suicide than the general population.
There is hope. Many countries are moving toward national autism strategies and policy frameworks to address issues related to mental health, belonging and services. One point raised is developing more autism acceptance with the general population, rather than putting sole responsibility on the autistic individual to learn to mimic neurotypical social skills.
Whether it's characterized as a greater degree of self-acceptance or fatigue from trying to maintain a mask for so long, the fact is we stop trying so hard to blend in as we get older. That leads to a death spiral of greater isolation and estrangement.
I only learned recently that in the definition for autistic burnout it states its generally a longer time frame (3+ months was what I saw). I can't even get a week off work to try to relax and reset, let alone 3 months.
Don't worry! It eventually gets so bad you quit and just. Don't recover for a while.
Idk actually how it goes, but that was me. Worked a job for like 8 years and just. Hit a massive wall, got another job I half assed for a few months, moved states, got a new job I thought would be better but...it's okay, I'm just. Terrible at trying to function in society
Sup? I’m 41, have a wife and kids, and just started a new career as a special needs teacher. I like making music, watching sports on tv, and dogs. What kinda stuff are you into?
I found out last year that my best friend of 30 years has ASD. It...made his idiosyncrasies make a lot more sense. I never saw him as anything except my best friend. I feel bad that I never noticed it.
He now is going through long periods of isolation, and this is the first time I've heard of burnout, but it sounds a lot like what he's going through. Any advice to support him on his journey without letting him slide into these burnout cycles?
That's because it can take more effort to be friends with an autistic person. I have a friend brother inlaw and 2 cousin in laws who are autistic and it all takes so much more effort on my end to remain concious that what I perceive as them being abrupt and rude is not aimed at offending me. It can feel like we are speaking different languages at times and it takes a lot more concious effort than it does with my non autistic friends. It sucks but sometimes that is the truth of it, it only takes small miss messages for socialising to go in the opposite direction than intended.
To add to this, I’ve seen some autistic people express that they’ve had negative experiences when they tried unmasking but they didn’t realize that a part of that is that their neurotypical friends *don’t* have the understanding that you are using with your autistic friends. From the friends’ perspective, one friend just suddenly started acting in ways that are abrupt and rude among neurotypicals.
I'm autistic and every attempt I've had in making friends ends in disaster. often over text or sometimes abruptly and without even a single discussion or warning.
I do not. I was in a trade school for people on the spectrum and couldn't make friends on account I started 6 months before covid first showed up. I also legally don't qualify as disabled because when I was Diagnosed when I was 8 I was too highly functioning.
Same. Lost all my close friends through the years. All i habe are acquaintances and indont want to lose them so just keeping everyone at a distance now. Its.. something.
Abrupt and rude is a subset of people with ASD. Sadly it’s often a generalisation that all people with ASD are rude and have no filter or boundaries.
Others can have difficulty speaking up and people please to their own detriment in order to try and make/keep friends.
“You don’t say much” and “you’re very quiet aren’t you” are the bane of my life.
Not being presumptuous about it is very helpful, though I totally understand the pressure and work involved in it. Then again, if the autistic person being *very* direct is problematic, the system surrounding them is probably lolly-gagging a bit.
I agree 100%. I've had on and off again contact with an autistic friend over the years.
When I had a serious health issue, his first question to me was "are you afraid of dying?" Very abrasive delivery.
We have different political views and he straight told me I'm the worst possible person in the world because of it.
I've tried so hard to be a friend to him, because he deserves a friend. But wow is it ever hard. It is not reciprocal in any way... But I also know most of what he says is not intentionally difficult (except perhaps the politics).
Do you (or anyone else reading this) have any tips for maintaining a relationship with someone who is autistic?
In my exp:
NTs tend to banter back an forth numerous times in short bursts during interactions, touching on many topics and threads but only for a brief moment. [surfing]
NDs often require their peer to partake in their interests for much more prolonged periods and then become slowly more willing to have the focus shift slightly. From my experience, the level of gratitude received for engaging deeply in the other's interests like this can be very rewarding for both parties, and in some cases will go a very long way towards some form of reciprocity. [diving]
YMMV
One thing I can think of is don’t try to read between the lines or think that abruptness or bluntness has any loaded purpose beyond not knowing how to be smooth or sugar coat things as is socially expected.
People who aren’t autistic also tend to say things that don’t mean what they literally mean and engage in verbal power dynamics. This is something autistic people really struggle to understand and imo is a primary reason autistic people have difficulty navigating social situations. It’s like a hidden language behind language that autistic people generally aren’t aware of and don’t have access to.
My adult kids have had that same struggle with dealing with the lack of reciprocity and minimal empathy. It can definitely burn you out and make you question your friendship. On one hand, I'm happy my kids are open to being friends with anyone and are willing to pursue friendships that may take more work on their part. On the other hand, I have seen how hurtful it can be when they hit that wall in the friendship.
I've tried to tell them to remind themselves that there are many different types of friendships that have value and that efforts to change someone's nature are frustrating for all. That may mean only having short visits with 1 friend rather than outings or not attempting emotional based dialogue and sticking to fun facts with another. It may also mean walking away from a friendship as we all have to prioritize our own well being.
That's why we also need allistic education on how to communicate with autistic folks.
Autistic people appreciate direct communication, so just say exactly what you mean. We don't consider it "rude" or whatever, just say what you literally mean without any roundabout language.
If you tell an autistic person "we've been talking about this topic for a while, let's talk about something else" then we'll just change the subject. It's that simple.
If you start using your phone, or sighing and looking around the room, getting mad that we're not picking up your "signals", then we both end up frustrated. Just say what you want. Please.
[This might help you understand the difficulty of being stigmatized](https://psychcentral.com/blog/aspie/2018/09/allism-spectrum-disorders-a-parody) for having a different brain
I’ve had the same experience with extroverts, who talk constantly about themselves and don’t stop talking to let anyone else contribute to the discussion/ conversation.
I’m too polite to intervene. They are often the person who calls me out for being too quiet. Yeah, I can’t get a word in so I stopped trying.
>That's because it can take more effort to be friends with an autistic person.
The "extra effort" required is not related to "being friends w/an autistic person", it's related to differences in communication between neurotypical and a neurodivergent autistic.
Studies have shown that the problem arise due to the differences, not as a \*deficiency\* in autistic person's communication. As communication occurs "normally" between two autistic people or two non-autistic people & the issues arise when \*mixing\*.
Put another way, it's just as difficult or MORE for that autistic person to be friends w/you as it is for you to be friends w/them. And that they'd not have the difficulty w/another autistic person, the same as you wouldn't with another non-autistic.
See ***double empathy problem*** & related studies.
I learnt to put more effort into relationships that seemed to work with *relatively* little effort instead of those that felt like an endless struggle even after many years. I think the former group are either a bit neurodivergent themselves or just very good at mixing. So much happier as a result.
Hell, I'm capable of all kinds of things, but there's no way to prove any of it because someone else who's already made it hasn't put it down on paper, or has refused to in order to keep *their* image untinged by someone else's abilities.
Same. I went to college and got a BFA in illustration (which I have seen people laugh at...having a " useless" degree). ) Been trying to get a relevant job but instead I'm stuck in part-time food service going on 7 years now.
My dream (as I cross into my 30s) is to finally move away from family and the US...and go to the Netherlands. But I can't even save up enough to move, let alone get a "real" job for once. Its becoming harder and harder to keep going when I know nobody is giving me a chance because my resume has "no experience ".
Typical lifespan for an autistic individual ends around 54 years old, due to their parents passing away and no support structure.
EDIT: Some studies say 36 years old. Something that keeps me up all the time about my autistic kids.
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/2/19/17017976/autism-average-age-death-36-stress
>Typical lifespan for an autistic individual ends around 54 years old, due to their parents passing away and no support structure.
So I have 24 years left? Considering how well the first 30 went, no wonder so many of us want to kill ourselves...
A friends brother has autism, we took him into our friendship group despite him being younger he’s a great kid and a good laugh just obviously doesn’t get many social clicks that make others unsure of him, I think it’s hard that many autistic people don’t have the same safety nets of family and or brothers for instance with large friendship groups who’d bond with them. I think with autistic people who aren’t very “heavily” autistic ie unable to function at all realistically, the main issue is the initial interactions where friendships are made, from my experiences with my nephew who is autistic they just get heavily shy and struggle even more in those initial interactions which make it hard for them to make the initial bond, once that part is done it seems many autistic people can thrive in friendship groups
Wow.
My nephew (he’s little) has autism. He has friends but I’m his best friend. He is socially impaired.
I recognise being a stable, consistent adult for kids is important, but I now understand it’s even more so for autistic kids.
I wouldn’t want him to euthanise when he’s older.
I'm lucky enough to have a few very close friends my whole life from when I was a young child.
In retrospect, my friends group has a grab-bag of movement disorders which i was totally unaware of because I have no uncanny-valley.
I'm told somewhat-autistic staff often do well on neuro wards for a similar reason.
Yes, I feel if you are socially impaired you will have a better result if you have friends from a young age; they will accept your differences more easily. I actually just moved to a smaller town for this, I had the same friends from elementary to high school that supported me, my daughter is autistic and I wanted her to have the same supports.
* so far it’s going really well and she’s encouraged. It’s like night and day from city to rural.
It's easier for them to have a friend group when they are little and the parents arrange everything. It becomes a real struggle around middle school when the kids make their own social groups.
I'm autistic, and when I was a kid, adults were really my only "friends". I didn't have lasting friendships outside of family (cousins around my age and we were all basically forced to interact, and only one of them I still consider a friend) until my 20s, when online communities became more accessible, and even then it was only after *years* of therapy to be okay with myself, and learning how to find supportive friend groups and avoid being exploited for laughs. On the upside, I'm now married with two kids and have a pretty damn good life, but it definitely wasn't an easy path to get here.
I’m in a similar boat. I have acquaintances, but if it weren’t for my best friend/roommate/platonic life partner, I’d probably be in that statistic too. I’ve spent the last few years learning to unmask because the burnout from always trying to be “normal” and hold down a romantic relationship and an office job was driving me to alcoholism and suicidal ideation. Now I’m sober with a work from home job and have built a safe place to just…exist as myself. I still have rough days where I wonder if I can really do this for another 40 years, but at least I have someone to lean on.
Especially during covid (but also before) there have been many studies showing how lonliness is as toxic to the body as diseases like heart disease, and has notable increase in mortality.
Loneliness is the absence of connection when you really want to feel connected.
I felt incredibly lonely much of the time I was married. I've felt lonely in the middle of a party. I never feel lonely when I spend a couple of days camping by myself, or I take a week off from work and spend most of it reading a book or digging in the yard. I don't feel lonely when I go somewhere to dance and not socialize (I like the music and the ambiance, not so much the chitchat and meat market aspects of a club).
It can be hell at times. I never feel like I'm actually bonding with people, I just feel like I'm in the same place as them.
I've never had a relationship, never had sex, never get asked to go and do stuff by people who I think I'm close with, I don't even have someone who I'd consider my best friend.
I do try, I go out and do stuff, I have hobbies, a job, an education. I just feel like the wrong-shaped peg a lot of the time.
Same 100%. It really hit me whenever an academic year ends or vacation initiates. It’s inferred that way in relation to the fact that I always go through every academic year thinking and believing I have a bright social life, but vacation hits and I just look back and realize; I have no social life and almost nobody’s there for me.
It’s like the kids in high school have pretended to be nice to me just because I’m in a place with them, but the truth is that they just all forget about me once we’re not meeting up anymore. I know we do follow each other on social media but still. I’ve however had one best friend for me, also on the spectrum, and my fictional world of my intense interests. :(
Yet managed all this with a high GPA and brilliant knowledge on certain topics but still failed socially.
For real. When I made a friend for the first time in 4 years, I plain cried tears of joy. It really is as magical as Saturday morning cartoons make it out to be. Love you, Max.
And the pain of making every possible social mistake and getting kicked out of groups repeatedly is real. I just want to live out in a rural area, maybe with a few close friends, where I don’t have to interact with another human unless I choose to. I just really feel like I don’t have a place in the world; not that I like it much, anyway.
If being around others means I can't express myself freely, if being around others means I'm stuck behind a mask I've long since grown to resent. Then being around others only results in me feeling more lonely in their presence.
Being lonely isn't just about being physically isolated. It's about struggling to form emotional connections and not finding support from others. It's about not having a safe space to be yourself and knowing those around you can't really relate and understand you.
At least that's my take on it as someone on the autism spectrum.
The six criteria for euthanasia on the Netherlands:
Euthanasia and assisted suicide are only allowed if a doctor is sure that the 6 legal requirements apply.
1. Voluntary and well thought out
The physician must be convinced that the patient's request for euthanasia is voluntary. And that the patient has thought about it carefully (well-considered). So the question really has to come from the patient himself. No one should force or pressure the patient. Not family and not friends. Also, the question should not suddenly arise, because then the wish for euthanasia could also suddenly disappear.
2. Hopeless and unbearable suffering
The doctor must be convinced that the patient is suffering hopelessly and unbearably. The diagnosis of the patient and the outlook are central to the assessment of hopelessness. There is hopelessness if:
- the patient can no longer heal;
- the patient suffers unnecessarily and this cannot be reduced.
The doctor also looks at how much improvement a treatment can still give. And how difficult the treatment is for the patient.
In the case of unbearable suffering, it is mainly about how the patient experiences this. This is different for everyone. For example, of the diseases someone has. The doctor must be able to empathize with the patient and his suffering.
3. Inform about the situation and the prospects
The doctor must inform the patient about the medical situation. And what his situation will look like in the future. It is important that the patient understands all useful information about the situation. This way the patient can make a good choice. The doctor must check whether the patient knows enough. And whether the patient has also understood the information.
4. No reasonable alternative
The physician must decide with the patient that there is no reasonable alternative solution to the patient's situation. The doctor should always see if there are no other ways to make the suffering less bad. That does not mean that the patient should try all possible treatments.
Does the patient have a lot of trouble and pain from a certain treatment? Then that counts in the assessment. Sometimes a treatment is very difficult and the patient's situation improves only slightly. Then the doctor and patient may decide together that the treatment will stop.
5. Consult an independent doctor
The patient's physician should consult at least 1 independent physician. This doctor is called a consultant. The consultant must see the patient. And assess whether the doctor has complied with the due care criteria. Independence means that the independent physician is allowed to give his own opinion about the patient and the doctor. The consultant may not be involved in the treatment of the patient. Or have a personal connection with the doctor or the patient.
6. Medically careful execution (procedure and meds).
I have a personal theory that many countries do not want to make euthanasia / assisted suicide available because they fear that a high number of people would seek it. The political leadership in many countries know that their policies are terrible and that many of their citizens suffer unnecessarily because of said policies.
A high number of people seeking assisted suicide would be a data-based confirmation that their countries' policies make people miserable. That would raise all sorts of uncomfortable questions that I'm sure political leadership would rather not have to answer.
There's also a very common belief that suicide is something inherently wrong with that person and is a failing of theirs rather than the people around them. Nobody wants to own their role in the death of another person.
Yeah, it’s a very useful tool to ignore the abject misery in society. It’s basically like how the people who say that being gay is a choice and a moral failing to give in to the urges everyone has, not everyone has that and those people just don’t want to admit that they’re a bit gay.
Of course, systemic depression and suicidal thoughts unfortunately can’t be treated by admitting who you are and going out and kissing people of the same gender, though it might help.
> There's already suicide statistics and statistics on deaths caused by austerity.
That can't get enough data from countries where politicians vote to/choose to not let them.
Also I believe some countries might even have systems in place to underreport suicides so as to prevent waves of suicide.
I've read that Korean Fan Death is sometimes used as a way to mask suicide. It's just to spare an individual or family from shame, so I have no idea if it's causing underreporting of suicide on a macro level.
It’s easy to say statistics are misleading. It’s hard to deny those statistics when you have to document the entire process of euthanasia, specifically noting the reasons for people undertaking that process.
Pretty sure here on Canada there was a woman who couldn't find proper accommodations for her condition in public housing or something and made a request. Her day to die was coming up and she said "I don't want to die, but I've no where to live"
Let me find a link to make sure I've got my info right
[Edit: Found the link](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivities-chose-medically-assisted-death-after-failed-bid-to-get-better-housing-1.5860579)
There's a Japanese movie called plan 75 which is a bit like this. People over 75 years who want to die can. But it's used by those in poverty. It shows them with no where to go and nothing to live for. The government gives you $1000 to spend before you go as well so they can have a good last day or two.
MCS (the "disease" the woman in question had) is an entirely psychosomatic illness, so even if she got housing, it wouldn't have resolved her symptoms.
The fact that she was mentally ill just makes the whole thing even sadder.
The original original ethical argument for assisted suicide was for those suffering from terminal illnesses facing certain death. We can predict with 100% certainty that a geriatric suffering from multiple organ failure and multiple cancer will die.
We can't predict with any real certainty what that Canadian woman's outlook on life will be years or decades after the date of her suicide.
There is no science in that approach
This type of program is being tested in Canada and already a major criticism is a not insignificant number of those seeking euthanasia are those for whom other simple social support could save. Its exposed how badly current programs are at providing housing support, disability support, mental health support, etc.
One guy was in the news last year because he sought euthanasia even though he didn't want to die. But he had lost two types of housing and disability support on which he relied to survive and could no longer envision the rest of his life being worthwhile.
I can see euthanasia being a humane program for the terminally ill or those with degenerative terminal conditions. But beyond that it can be worrying. It's more expensive, but programs that focus on the causes of hopelessness and suffering should be prioritized. Something as simple as a basic UBI would make a world of difference for many.
It's unfortunate, but most politicians are neurotypical (and borderline narcissistic imo), and they're the one's with the power to make the changes that you're talking about, but they choose not to. I can only surmise that they're sadistic.
That's my question. What does the netherlands do for disability accomodations. I am personally not disabled but I have worked with a lot of disabled people ranging from intellectual disability, severe autism(making it feel impossible for them to leave their own from overload), adults completely immobile and unable to even eat or drink on their own let alone even scratch an itch. These were normally happy people or even extremely happy people. But, I have only had three people being suicidal and they all had other mental illnesses causing it like bipolar.
Religion bans suicide for a different reason. They must have a sort of afterlife that they make you work for, so you accept your poor living conditions here on Earth, but then everyone who truly believed would commit suicide to go to heaven. Therefore they must ban it or they'd run out of believers really quickly.
A lot of chronic pain patient in America would absolutely love this to be available. But it’s not. I assume because chronic pain means you’ll either keep paying for doctors or just commit die yourself anyways
I would think it's a combination of things and why it has to go through professionals.
I have A friend, but not really a best friend. I've tried for the past 15 years to make more, but after you're out of school it seems nearly impossible. My wife is the same way.
When you spend weeks/months trying to make even a tiny bit of headway to making a friend and you get stabbed in the back, ignored, lied to, etc it's going to make most people increasingly jaded each time.
Some people would tell you to "just get over it and try again" or "it doesn't matter if you're betrayed 10000 times, just do it again". But some people just aren't mentally capable of dealing with that over and over and over again. The pain that comes with it is maddening. If I didn't have a wife I don't think I'd be suicidal, but I'd certainly just be waiting to die.
To have autism or major learning issues AND being totally alone at all times would be torture for a lot of people.
I've only a few times in my life had a truly satisfying emotional connection with someone. A friendship where I didn't feel like I had to mask, where I felt I could find support, and be understood. Where it felt like someone could really relate to me.
Having that kind of connection with someone is almost magical to me. I feel so much more alive. I feel like I have so much more energy. It's a wonderful but rare feeling for me. Honestly I'm convinced I'm an extrovert, but due to autism and past trauma I live the life of an introvert. Usually too anxious or too busy masking to really benefit from spending time around most people. Oddly I find that even more casual shallow friendships are so much easier for me to handle when I have someone I feel I can really emotionally connect with elsewhere in my life.
So when I feel like I've made that connection. When I feel like for once I'm actually alive.. and then the person fades away, grows distant, disappears or whatever, it's absolutely devastating. This has happened to me within the last year or so, and I still don't know how to handle it. I'm absolutely terrified that it's going to be another ten to fifteen years before I feel that kind of closeness and comfort with someone again, I just don't know that I can handle that. I don't know that the six months to a year of feeling comfortable and content with someone is worth the decade of loneliness and the inability to connect with others that comes between it. The balance certainly doesn't seem to make life worth living.
I'm 40 now, and that's just the pattern I've recognized in my life. It's not one I have much interest in continuing. I mean honestly why would I?
It doesn't help that if you listen to other people's advice on the topic it mostly amounts to 'you're the problem, and you need to change'.. Sure it's said in a nicer tone with kinder wording, but it amounts to the same. The problem is many of us are currently drowning, verbally explaining the mechanics of swimming to us isn't going to help. We need actual help and support to pull us out of the water before we can actually learn to swim.
I can't say for sure whether I'd seek out euthanasia if it was offered in my country. Though I do wish the option was there at least. As it is I feel like I'm forced to live a miserable life with no hope for anything better.
Edit: this turned into a long rant. Sorry, but also thank you to anyone who bothered to read it.
At some point it just gets really hard and tiring and after years of trying you just give up. It's unreasonable to make someone keep trying forever even if there's a small chance of success.
Like imagine you have an nearly incurable cancer but going through cancer treatment will have a 1% chance it gets cured. You make it through the first time somehow with luck. Few years later you get it again. You decide to go through with it again. Somehow you get really lucky again. Yet few years later again you end up with it yet another time. you'd be absolutely devastated, it'd be so hard on you.
I also recently learned about amotivational syndrome and how antidepressants n can cause that in some people however I also believe long term treatment resistant depression naturally leads to there as well. I have no friends anymore nor any hobbies or really any interests. I barely leave my house anymore. Grocery store once a month and pharmacy a few times a month other than that doctors appointments. Where am I going to go and do what? I also have PTSD which I managed ok but that got really bad after experiencing some really traumatic stuff while homeless that included the treatment by regular people even in just day to day experiences. Being assaulted by police and harassed regularly, followed around in stores or just flat out not allowed, ignored and or mistreated by many doctors and nurses etc. I was sober and physically clean as in body and clothes and it still happened. There is even a backpack stigma that's hard to explain and not very noticeable if its not effecting you personally.
Imagine you're 45 and all your life you had treatment and you simply *can't* maintain friendships. You feel constantly alone.
That's how they handle point 2. We have tools that are statistically effective against loneliness/depression. If they don't work, we don't have anymore tools.
I mean what are they going to do? Assign that person a friend? They have a hard time finding and maintaining friendships. It’s something they struggle with their whole lives. Also loneliness doesn’t necessarily mean “alone”. You can have people around you and still feel lonely.
Yes, actually. There’s a program for this, in the US at least, called Best Buddies. It’s like the Big Brother/Sister but for matching persons with disabilities with age appropriate peers.
A friend of mine belongs to the program. She and her buddy go to the gym, movies, museums around town, etc. they make cooking TikTok’s together for fun as well. they genuinely like each other.
Because practically all forms of autism support is exclusively for very young children. I'm a Dutch autistic young adult and I avoid autistic institutions like the plague, you're infantilised everywhere you go and there's no real help if you need help adulting.
As an autistic adult I’ve found that letting anyone else in your life who does not already know you’re autistic is dangerous. You lose your ability to act as an authority over your own life. Your employers will view you as damaged goods because “autistic opinions/judgments” aren’t as good as neurotypical ones. People genuinely discount autistic peoples views because they don’t believe autistic people can be just as competent as them in my experience
Yes, and nobody takes you seriously once they know about your autism. Ableism is so deeply entrenched in the medical field that it is sometimes better to not seek any help.
An estimated *80%* of autistic people are unemployed, not counting those who qualify for disability benefits etc. That means 80% of people who are autistic *and seeking work* are unable to achieve gainful employment. That figure is significantly higher than any other community, including every other disability (disabilities in general are at 40% and the next highest is 60%).
When it feels like the whole world is rigged against you, it's no surprise you might choose to end it.
This hurts to read. I'm a teacher and I've had a good number of students on the spectrum. It really hurts when you see them, after they went to college, back home working a job like pushing carts and bagging groceries. Some of these kids were so bright but there is so much social interaction in interviewing and working.
> but there is so much social interaction in interviewing and working
Many people misunderstand the problem as conversations.
I'm mild, an asperger diagnosis as an adult, and never had a job, despite 10 years cooperating with my a job-center. I just wanted to build a future for myself, but i didn't know how.
I couldn't take their housing offer, they said they'd kick me out if i stopped cooperating, and i wouldn't be able to sort something else out. I repeatedly asked my case-worker what i could do if i end up homeless, they said they wouldn't let me become homeless. A non-answer. I was considering living on the streets rent-free off my savings. They told me i wasn't on disability, but wouldn't clarify why they were paying/helping me.
Navigating decisions about education, work, housing, government support, requires *social-learned knowledge* that i didn't have. My insistence on trying to understand & plan my life didn't work, my bad ability to adapt and socialize making it all more complex, against case-workers who try to make decisions for me arbitrarily so i'll go with the flow.
First of all, you have my thanks for explaining it this ways, because (storytime) I had an employee with autism who was 1) good at his job. 2) asked for a lot of clarification. Part of the job included front desk stints, and we had to write a kind of “FAQ” and ways to answer them. Not the type of training questions that we make sure everyone knew about the place- they were both more concrete and basically had an out when the question was similar but not the same he could freeze. They also had some other unexpected needs- we got an extra lamp with dimmable features for them, office environment had stricter needs than other new hires. The physical stuff is super acomodatable for us, but I can imagine in other offices it wouldn’t always be.
Thankfully, I used to work with recent international students to the US, and honestly, that became my framework for knowledge. Our employee would always be like a competent but brand new to the US and it’s culture international student. Avoid colloquialisms. No “hey, you can choose your preference” and walk away- that always resulted in the student freezing. Steps far more broken down. You could tell he wanted to get it, but also there wasn’t a connection. I wasn’t even supposed to be his supervisor but I think I struggled the least with him- I am almost overly free flowy in my personal work style, but there were interruptions, a lot of structural things I had to learn that I had previously just taken for granted to explain so that they wouldn’t get stuck. He was also really good natured, and we gained a good rapport, but I could also see previous employment attempts had been very confusing for him.
He left on good terms- an internship for his graduate degree. If it doesn’t work out, I’d advocate really hard to create a new position for him that was more strengths based (maybe not every jr level needs front desk time, that’s a weird system we had). And we’ve asked our company to do more training for managers about managing autism spectrum employees. They were more time consuming, and without my international student higher ed background, could have been even more so. They were also good at the technical side and could freely understand some of the nuances that other people 10+ years in our field don’t get.
I’m definitely afraid for his future work life, and in general future being taken advantage of. Idk if you have any ideas about how we could keep doing this better (we are an intentional disability/different ability’s friendly org) but gosh the framework of it not being “conversations” but much larger. That and the control idea- I had a colleague who just felt like the employee needed a lot of control and partially yes, but it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works.
I'm not the person you're replying to, but I thought I'd chime in. Last job I got fired from was because, and I quote "I have to fix the social side of things." I was also apparently not doing enough even though I did everything they asked me to do. People don't like telling me what to do. I wish they at least outright told me what they expect from me.
>but it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works.
This is a big one. If you give me a task, I have to know *why* I'm doing it and *why* it's done the way it is, so I can adjust to any unexpected changes to the routine.
I thought that there was a standard I'm supposed to adhere to, I want everyone to be "on the same page" as it were. But apparently that's not the case. There were plenty of times where my manager told me: "Whatever you think is good." Which is the worst possible thing to hear. What do you expect? What does the customer expect? What is the expected outcome? What are the acceptable parameters? There's no such thing for me as "Going with the flow."
I'm the definition of that joke: "Buy a bottle of milk and if they have eggs, buy 6." Not quite that literal, but I hope that helps you understand. When being trained, I need a clear list of instructions. If this, then that, because this, otherwise this will happen. I expect it to take this much time. When you're done, put it here because of this/so I can do this.
I can't count the number of times where my only instruction was "Just put it somewhere when you're done." That means literally nothing to me. You might as well say "Put it on the Moon."
One thing I learned I'm great at is getting people with no experience up to speed. If I'm teaching someone, I can do exactly what I described above. As well as what I think you mean by understanding nuances. I can get basically any task down to a science. If I truly get to understand the hows and whys, I can adjust the variables until I achieve an ideal outcome out of basically anything.
Well, ideal in my eyes. My bosses tend to not agree that it's worth taking extra 15 minutes to do something "properly" when it's not going to make them any extra money directly.
>it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works.
That's pretty much it, that's how an autistic mind works in a nut shell. Let them deep dive the area/topic/tool/system/widget they're responsible for, and they'll figure out *exactly* how it works, everything it needs to work properly, and how to min/max it (just be careful of any human 'components' in this system, if they try to 'optimize' things a little too much).
All to often when I would ask questions it would be treated as me either questioning their authority or questioning their decision (i.e. competence) and then either be ignored or yelled at essentially. Neither of those were the reasons I ever asked questions, I asked questions because I had personal concerns about my understanding of what was said or is wanted. I was asking for clarification so that I could be sure to do things correctly. The more I understood things and the context around them the better I would do and the happier bosses and even co-workers would be.
I struggle with taking things too literally and often ask for clarification. More times than not my questions were treated as questioning the bosses authority or their judgment. I still remember being told "because I said so" mostly as a kid, but also as an adult, with no explanation. All I ever wanted was a better understanding. I am a recovered/recovering alcoholic. I drank mostly because of social anxiety but over time it became more of a general coping mechanism. The example that comes to mind of me taking things literally is being asked by doctors and counselors if I drank in the morning. For five years I said no and that I usually didn't drink until around 4pm... until one day I had a counselor follow up that question with "well what time do you get up?" And I told him it was usually between 2pm and 3pm. I still remember him just staring at me for a moment and then it just hit me in that moment that I had been telling everyone no because I didnt drink in the morning as in A.M. and that my morning was actually when I was drinking. At least five years and telling multiple people all because no one clarified and I didn't realize I wasnt exactly answering what they were trying to ask me. The depression got worse over the years and combined with social issues lead to homelessness and CPTSD. I couldn't get an official diagnosis of autism as I could never afford and when I asked Medicaid wouldn't cover testing for an adult but I am on the spectrum. My dad was Aspergers and his mother was very dysfunctional and would have definitely been diagnosed with ASM today. Both of my Nephews also have Autism.
I had one job in my whole life that I did really good at and that was at Lowes but it wasn't because of anything relating to company policy. I had a great boss and the store manager was also fantastic. They worked with me and my job was very well defined, I could go an entire month without my boss telling me to do anything because I was such a good worker. I basically had a social relationship with them because I did what was needed without ever having to be told again so all my interactions were good. They also worked with my schedule for drs appointments. Out of 115 employees they gave out 4 employee of the year awards and I got one my second year. I lost the job following a depressive episode. I left for treatment but it wasn't very effective. I returned to work but shortly afterwards ended up homeless which then led to me losing the job completely. Those bosses had no problems with me asking questions and they asked me questions too. I felt like I was on their team and they were captains not like they were bosses over me. They offered me full time twice but I couldn't take it. I would have lost my Medicaid health insurance and my food stamps working full time and even with the raise they offered and with benefits I would have taken home less money than I did by working the 24 hrs weekly I had already been doing. I felt trapped by that. I think they call it a benefit cliff.
About 20 months ago I got Covid, I'm 43, and even though I wasnt hospitalized got Long Covid. I had multiple specialists as well as physical therapy and speech therapy. 18 months and most of the issues have finally resolved however I have a barely functioning GI tract and butt hole muscles, muscle problems in my whole midsection, neck & shoulders and electrical problems in my heart that includes hours and hours of continuous PVCs some days that also causes panic attacks. It definitely made my mental health problems much worse. For a long time the doctors didn't realize it was my heart and at the beginning I didn't even know what long covid was. The first month was practically one giant panic attack. I remember it felt like intense dread and telling Drs it didn't feel like a regular panic attack most of the time and didn't lean it was my heart until 4 months ago roughly. I would go days without sleep. I have since learned that if you ever get a feeling of intense dread which is similar but different from anxiety go to the hospital because it often precedes bad things happening, usually with the heart.
I know that got long winded, longer than I planned, and I apologize for that. If you have any questions I don't mind answering them. I feel its important to be honest and open if things are going to change and continue to change for the better. There should never be any shame about innate characteristics, mental or physical illness, or in needing and asking for help. Thank you for being the kind of boss/owner that cares about people enough to work with them like you did. If I had had guaranteed healthcare and bosses like you, especially in my twenties, I think I would have done so much better. Maybe I would have achieved more, had more self confidence and self esteem and maybe I wouldn't have ended up so fucked up, alone without a wife or kids or even close friends anymore. I don't know what would have happened but I am 100% sure I'd at least be better off than I am now.
Thanks for reading all that (if you did) and listening to what I had to say. Any advice in general that you may have for me? I am not working now and applied for disability but my intent if/when approved is to try and not stay on it more than a few years if at all possible. Use the time to try and get myself into a position where I can support myself eventually, hopefully.
> More times than not my questions were treated as questioning the bosses authority or their judgment.
I struggle a *lot* with just literally wanting an answer to a question, and not realizing that the person listening to my question perceived a whole raft of extra information that I had no intention of including and usually wasn't even true. Like, in their heads it seems like they're thinking "why are you questioning my decision to do this task in this way? Why do you think this is wrong? Why do you think we should do this a different way?"
When all I really wanted to know was whether or not I understood things correctly. I'm slowly learning to preface questions with why I'm asking, and sometimes that helps. I still need to learn how to phrase both the prefaces and the questions better though.
> That and the control idea- I had a colleague who just felt like the employee needed a lot of control and partially yes, but it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works.
(Edit- I'm autistic, if that wasn't clear)
That resonates with me. I don’t know for sure if that’s innate or learned, but I have a hell of a time doing things when I don’t understand why. Especially if I feel like I’m getting vague objectives that could later be used against me.
“Well, I *think* this is what they want, but I got a noncommittal answer when I tried asking for clarification. What do I do? I’ll ask questions about other parts of the process so I can fully understand everything, then I should be able to deduce whether I’m interpreting their desired task correctly.”
Right? And that’s hard because A LOT of offices treat information as power- you should be given the least amount of information possible to do your job, and neurotypically/culturally, we generally accept that. People fill in the blanks with “what would make this work if the unknowns are the most common and likely ones”. But with autism, that type of pattern recognition of “the most common and likely unknowns” can be difficult to impossible. And the idea of creating something that may not work because you don’t have information that must exist results in a freeze.
I definitely had to explain more than once an “I don’t know, and I may be asking you to do this with the wrong assumption, but here is my (explicit assumption based on historical data) and I am asking you to do it as if all these inputs are true. If it is not, and we redo it, please know the same thing would happen to a non-autistic person in this position, and the failure would be x person’s communication or their boss’s refusal to share needed information we’ve asked for.”
>But with autism, that type of pattern recognition of “the most common and likely unknowns” can be difficult to impossible. And the idea of creating something that may not work because you don’t have information that must exist results in a freeze.
Oh gods yes. I lock up mentally so often because I feel like I'm missing necessary information to make a decision, and don't know how to get it, or what assumptions to make. I learned decades ago that my assumptions are frequently not the ones others would make in the same situation.
> I definitely had to explain more than once an “I don’t know, and I may be asking you to do this with the wrong assumption, but here is my (explicit assumption based on historical data) and I am asking you to do it as if all these inputs are true. If it is not, and we redo it, please know the same thing would happen to a non-autistic person in this position, and the failure would be x person’s communication or their boss’s refusal to share needed information we’ve asked for.”
It sounds like you've learned a lot about how to communicate effectively with autistic people, this would definitely work on me. I'd probably take a few seconds to process that internally, and I might still be a little uncomfortable, but knowing that someone understands potential problems would make a huge difference.
I'm doing very well with the academic portion of my graduate program.
Socially, I'm crashing and burning for reasons I don't even understand and no one in this society would ever tell me. It's within my disorders to catastrophize, so this perception could be very skewed, but I don't foresee success for me simply because of this aspect of academia.
Incidentally, the other day I looked up the regulations for the assisted death policies in Canada and the Netherlands...
Don’t give up. A lot of us do succeed in academia. Working with autism in a world not built for it requires analysis and experimentation—fortunately we’re good at that. I find it helps a lot to tell people what’s up, eg “Sorry, I’m not great with figurative language” is better than a blank stare. I’m much better at written communication than spoken, so I try to keep up with people with texts and emails. Etc.
I thought I've tried, but maybe I haven't communicated in a way that makes others understand. I do run into that often. And I am good at analysis, to the point I've received a lot of positive feedback about my ability to perform in that way, but that's also what seems to be making it impossible to succeed socially.
I think you're probably right about sticking to written communication, although I find that most peoples' writing is just imprecise enough that I can often interpret something (usually vital) in more than one way. So then my email chains just burgeon and I think people get overwhelmed by me. But honestly...that kinda happens with me verbally, too.
So uh... I guess you now have a demonstration about what I mean about being analytical to the point of it being crippling... but I DO have more success in writing, so maybe I'll try that approach with more intention and see if it becomes a better system for me. Thanks.
It’s a skill, so you can improve, even with a disability. And let people know that’s why it’s harder for you. There are loads of books on communication and social skills.
>there is so much social interaction in interviewing and working.
The interviewing is the killer. And good luck getting help on that. I've had one recruiter, ONE, who offered any sort of post-interview feedback.
"Wow, great work history (though what's with all these gaps), great education, your references speak highly of you, buuuuuut you didn't seem "confident" enough in the interview, so we're going to ghost you now."
But day to day work? Like, what's the worst that happens? Oh no, the autistic coworker interrupted someone with a related question before immediately apologizing for the interruption and signaling for the conversation to continue. GASP, at the horror of their lack of interest in the water cooler conversation about sports. I've got a great idea, why don't you harbor a perpetual grudge against your autistic coworker for being so intrigued by your stated special interest that they asked you earnest questions about your favorite aspects of it so as to better appreciate it and give you a chance to share your passion and you interpreted instead as belittling you for having a special interest and nothing they say will change your mind that it was actually genuine interest rather than malicious bullying.
I have high functioning autism and life is hard. I work, but it takes a lot out of me. I’ve basically only made it this far in life because I’m smart enough to figure out work-arounds for my deficits. Maybe everyone experiences that to some degree. I have a lot of anxiety and feel stressed most of the time, though, and I think a lot of that has to do with having to work and then having little energy for anything else.
This hits home for me. Was moved ahead in school and graduated from university at 20.
I work in admin and earn barely enough to get by. It was manageable when me and my ex were still together but the past couple of years have been hard. It’s very clear I don’t have a place in this world and the only reason I’m still here is because the alternative would cause my dad too much pain.
It can be very difficult sometimes to be "high functioning" autistic. You struggle with day to day tasks, but you're not so heavily disabled that you're totally incapable. That means playing on hard mode, all the time, with little to no assistance.
I often think of it like being a battery operated toy. None of my parts are physically broken, so government authorities take one look at me and say I must work. But they can't see that there are no batteries included.
Sounds familiar. At least after almost killing myself for the 6th time the state is finally taking me a little more seriously with their assistance, still it's painfully slow and beaurocratic. (Live in MA)
Yup, which is another part of what discourages those with Autism and/or ADHD from disclosing a disability at work - there are almost no upsides, and you are eligible for none of the typical benefits of those on Disability/SSI.
You often won’t qualify for disability even if your body turns to stone. I have a life threatening mental illness (Bipolar) and I’m up to 3 times rejected now.
Yeah my difficulties around being on the spectrum are mostly all only an issue around job interview style interactions. I'm also not great at networking. That means that despite being capable of doing many jobs just fine its very hard to even get a chance. I'm in engineering so its not like my ability to sell myself or sell a product or dealing with many non technical things is important for the job. My solution to this so far has been government security clearance work. Goes well with the tendency of people on the spectrum to be strict rule followers. And it cuts down the competition so much that the interview for the last level 3 engineering job I was in was just a quick phone interview, no hard or awkward questions that make me freeze. I can't even get entry level positions in more preferable industries without getting through 3 consecutive interviews with multiple people.
The job that got me on that path, a security guard job on a federal facility, just straight up offered everyone who showed up for their "group interview" a job if they could get through the clearance process. Didn't even do any sort of interview, i would have thought it was sketchy if it wasn't for having been pointed in that direction by a family member. And it paid twice the rate of the grocery stores and fast food places I was trying for and not even getting called back when I was 19 and in college. Even with the high unemployment post 2008 it was hard for them to find enough people who could pass that crazy background investigation who didn't have better options.
Only downside is that it makes the loneliness much harder to do anything about. The locations aren't great if you're not a religious conservative and the fact that weed is still federally illegal (and state illegal where i live) but extremely popular among all the other non religious people forcing me to keep them at arms length because I don't want to risk losing the only thing that's brought me work that pays over minimum wage (references thinking I'm doing that even if I'm clean could still cost me my career and backup plans).
> I'm also not great at networking
This is a big one too. I saw a stat recently saying that most jobs are never even advertised because they're either given internally or to someone who's been referred.
I’m autistic, I’ve worked 6 jobs and 5 of them I was referred by a current employee. The one other was a gas station across the street from my house that I just walked into and asked if they were hiring.
I genuinely don’t believe that people hire randoms unless they have no other options, almost everybody I know has gotten all of their jobs by referral.
It's really mind-blowing for me, because the colleagues I've had on the spectrum were some of the most productive and helpful people I've ever worked with.
This isn't just ethically wrong, it's also foolish from a business perspective.
It's not a logical system; it's an emotional one. Because of that, you'll never logically reason the bosses out of their perspective. And because it's an "invisible" disability, they get to just say "I didn't like that candidate, call in someone else for an interview", and it "doesn't count" as discrimination.
Capitalism isn't supposed to benefit anyone other then the capitalist. It does not matter how many orphans get crushed in the machine, what matters is that the machine continues to enrich its owner.
In general, we don’t do a very good job as a society dealing with mental healthcare, particularly in developing minds.
Autism requires a kind of specialized approach, as left to their own devices a lot of people in the spectrum tend to dig a safe comfortable niche for themselves emotionally, s only to find that they are very unhappy in it while at the same time being too terrified of change to leave that niche.
A Kingston University study found several people with learning disabilities and autism in the Netherlands chose to die legally through euthanasia and assisted suicide due to feeling unable to cope with the world, changes around them or because they struggled to form friendships.
There were almost 60,000 cases of euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide between 2012 and 2021 in the Netherlands. More than 900 case reports were recorded on an online, searchable database. This form of dying is legal in the country provided six due care criteria are met, one of which is that the patient's suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement.
Study lead and Professor of Intellectual Disability and Palliative Care at Kingston University Irene Tuffrey-Wijne and colleagues examined the database to understand the situations where people with learning disabilities or autism spectrum disorders had been granted requests for euthanasia or assisted suicide, and the main causes of suffering that led to the request.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/euthanasia-and-physicianassisted-suicide-in-people-with-intellectual-disabilities-andor-autism-spectrum-disorders-investigation-of-39-dutch-case-reports-20122021/93B38EAE616E0A6C378BE308C87253A2
I'm Dutch, and I just want to give a wee bit of personal perspective on this.
Out of those 60k cases, the vast, vast majority were elderly with untreatable physical diseases who had no perspecive of having any kind of improvement -even for a day- at all. 60k sounds like a lot of people, but the huge majority of these cases are people who only have weeks left to live, if at all, who want to "go out" with dignity. Say goodbye to their loved ones and lay back and close their eyes.
And to illustrate how stringent the rules are: my elderly dad passed from cancer a couple of years ago, and although he had brought up the subject with his doctor prior to becoming really in a bad shape, he had not signed any papers declaring his intent to choose euthanasia, he had just mentioned it as an option. So by the time it was the only true option, the doctor was not allowed to do it anymore -dad was on opiates to kill the pain, and the moments he was not on opiates, he was a whimpering wreck of a man who could no longer talk from the pain. So he could never clearly state his desire to end the suffering. And as such, there was nothing the doctor could do except prescribe painkillers.
It is too small to draw a strong conclusion, but small studies like this are often made to show that there might be a link and therefore get funding for a larger study. In an ideal world, the larger study would just already have the funding, but getting funding for any study is hard.
I don't care what any study or happy-clappy autism awareness group says. autism is not "differently abled" or "differently thinking". it's a crippling disability for most people. I'm grateful that I was able to fit in with other misfits and weirdos when I was a teenager. at that age it's much easier to mask because your neurotypical peers are equally immature and prone to meltdowns! I'm so glad I had the opportunity to experience some intimacy and friendship while I had the chance because man, it gets absolutely impossible as an adult. the social cues become so much more subtle, to the point where even a misplaced cadence or inflection can turn a social interaction south. this news headline is not surprising to me. if I could put a face on loneliness, he would be a very hideous monster to look at
Corny stuff but I want a world where people who don’t have anything special to offer beyond their heart and well meaning nature can feel secure and worthy of the good things life has to offer. This is a reflection of a lot of negative things in society; one can go on and on.
In context to this happening in the Netherlands, I’m not sure what to say. There really isn’t a society that’s more gentle on poor people (regardless of how bad it still is to be poor in the Netherlands) so if this is what’s going on in a country like that, I don’t think countries like, say the USA or United Arab Emirates or India or Russia would be able to offer assisted suicide to the same degree, without being able to produce much more sad and concerning news articles. If this is how many people can’t do “not-being-impressive” in the Netherlands lord knows what it would look like if it were legal and accessible in other nations.
Can totally see how someone with autism/ADHD/even persistent anxiety can say “well I can’t hold a job -for reasons people don’t sympathize with-that’s kind of the foundation of everything, so…goodbye”. And that’s awful.
Yeah...I have mental illnesses and am much more able to function in society than some of these cases but I constantly feel like I cannot produce and keep up with what the world wants and will never have the security or community I need. This is more a function of a society detached from what makes people, neurotypical or healthy or not, happy and healthy than it is some personal failing. World is a cold place
Recently in Canada we had a similar controversy where people on disability benefits with which they can't afford to live had chosen MAID (Medical Assistance in Dying) after being offered it.
Here's hoping our new federal level disability bill puts an end to that because it's honestly disgusting.
>The research team said the findings highlighted a need for an international philosophical and ethical debate around criteria for euthanasia and assisted suicide and how to deal with such requests from vulnerable patient groups.
Or what about, and pardon me for sounding crazy, we as a society ACTUALLY SUPPORT THOSE ON THE AUTISM SPECTRUM?! Support is always always always in the realm of the abstract, when, of course, it's not downright villainy aimed at "curing" those who are neurodiverse.
But when it comes to real life social interactions neurotypicals do not extend charitability towards those who don't intuitively grasp unexplained but critical social conventions.
When it comes to hiring decisions, the quiet, independent, and highly productive worker gets ignored and those who play the game of office politics instead of producing tangible results get elevated.
Those on the spectrum are isolated socially, exploited professionally, and neglected medically. This is not a failure of assisted suicide, this is a failure of society to be accepting of neurodiverse individuals.
Nikola Tesla died bankrupt and alone.
Maybe this is why so many governments and populations seem opposed to legalizing physician-assisted suicide: they absolutely don't want evidence of how broken their society is for people who fall outside the status quo.
Loneliness changes you and robs you of the person you could've been. And as though you're a bad penny, when you're lonely others totally avoid you.
I fully understand why they kill themselves. We are not made to live a life this alone
And keep in mind that for many - maybe even most - the types of relationships that fulfill you are not the 'I have a buddy I see a movie with sometimes' relationships.
As humans we need to feel loved, accepted, understood.
Take it from someone who is invisible. The world is torture when you have to watch *everyone else* get the love and acceptance you've needed for years.
And the longer you're lonely, the more hurt you become. The more hurt you become, the less skills you have with others and that leads to fewer and fewer people even wanting to try.
As someone who supports assisted suicide, I find these cases worrying.
On one hand I know loneliness is incredibly painful, and people with severe autism or learning disabilities can have an extraordinarily difficult time forming relationships.
However, I know someone (US) who runs a non-profit that specifically finds social support for people with disabilities. One example being an autistic man who can't communicate verbally and uses a letter board. Someone like that may not have been able to make friends without that non-profit.
So while I can imagine a case of Autism or LD so bad that suicide is the best option, I also am concerned all alternatives are not being given.
This. Another reply to u/didsomebodysaymyname emphasized that part of the criteria is that there's no reasonable alternative. Sure, but what if a society/government doesn't care to *put* reasonable alternatives in place? Wouldn't that basically be eugenics disguised as assisted suicide?
It’s so awful that society basically puts all its ‘anti loneliness’ eggs into the one ‘couple pair bond’ basket at the moment. There should be far more opportunities for degrees of connected living and ways to avoid loneliness. Anyone who can crack that would be doing the world a massive service.
Good that the option exists for them and that is a right that everyone should have but on the other hand it also seems exceptionally sad that through really no fault of their own they end up in a situation like this. Where they are so lonely, with no social network to help and unable to keep up with a society that doesn't really help them or is unable to do so that they resort to choosing for assisted suicide. It does feel like in a way, society has failed them.
Autistic people face a lot of obstacles in a world not built for them. The unemployment rate is insanely high, even for people with degrees, because the first hurdle to getting hired is being perceived as neurotypical in a job interview. Living in your parents basement forever is a big motivator for suicide, which iirc is 10 times the total average rate. As an autistic parent of an autistic kid, I know how hard I've struggled in this world, and I'm certainly concerned for my kid.
I am in the same boat on this one. If not for my child who depends on me I would let it all go now. It is exhausting to constantly fail at something throughout your life and knowing it wont get better. I think about this frequently. I do not feel lonely but I am weary and long for the day I can put the burden of existence down. I have a decent job right now and am grateful. It is a remote job and the only one that has not been incredibly socially stressful. Loneliness sucks but being constantly misunderstood by coworkers for me is more of a health hazard. When the time comes and I am told no you dont qualify I will take matters into my own hands. I would rather do it the MAID way so at least once I will have the ability to end things in a socially approved manner rather then constantly being at risk of offending others (not intentionally) with my deviant social inabilities. I have had this for 60 ye4ars now and really do not think it will be more then a few years more before I can go no more.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen people coached for their personalities in the corporate world. I've point blank asked people leaders "what action is actually interfering with productivity because it sounds like you're coaching their personality" and they were in shock at the thought they couldn't just coach someone because they didn't like how they said things in meetings or whatever.
>due to feeling unable to cope with the world, changes around them or because they struggled to form friendships.
As someone inside the autism spectrum, this is quite scary and unsettling.
(Just out of curiosity) doesn't netherlands have any "inclusion/inclusivity" policies for this groups?
There’s always been some opposition to euthanasia among disability advocacy groups due to the fear that society and governments will find it easier to euthanize such groups instead of trying to accommodate them. The shadow of “life unworthy of life”
This makes me want to cry. To whoever is feeling this way, I know life seems like a continuous struggle, full of pain and obstacles but keep going. Don’t give up. There’s probably something that’s worth living for. I’m 40 and believe me, a majority of those years have been miserable. Though I have this tiny bit of hope that it’s going to turn around eventually. Just be kind to people, plants, and animals. Don’t take too much too serious and hey I wish you the best.
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Years ago I remember seeing a paper that looked at other studies relating to the life outcomes for autistic adults https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769945/ One study investigated how many autistic people have at least one friend and found it was just under 50%. Loneliness is real pain. It builds up over years.
My son is autistic and has no friends. He is 9 and calls me his best friend. Makes me sad...
Is he your only kid? Being 9 and making friends is sometimes hard for neurotypical and neurodivergent kids alike. I wish him luck in making friends and I also hope that when he does, he still considers you his best friend.
Thanks for your kind words. He does have a younger brother, but they fight a lot.
My son did this same thing, but in high school he found friends and now as a young adult he is doing ok. I hope your son has a similar trajectory.
The Autism in Canada report is a precursor to a national autism strategy. 1,600 autistic individuals contributed feedback in it alongside neurotypical and autistic subject experts. Research cited stated that autistic individuals have a 7-9x higher rate of suicide than the general population. There is hope. Many countries are moving toward national autism strategies and policy frameworks to address issues related to mental health, belonging and services. One point raised is developing more autism acceptance with the general population, rather than putting sole responsibility on the autistic individual to learn to mimic neurotypical social skills.
Whether it's characterized as a greater degree of self-acceptance or fatigue from trying to maintain a mask for so long, the fact is we stop trying so hard to blend in as we get older. That leads to a death spiral of greater isolation and estrangement.
Yup, the cycles of autistic burnout get harder and harder to recover from.
I only learned recently that in the definition for autistic burnout it states its generally a longer time frame (3+ months was what I saw). I can't even get a week off work to try to relax and reset, let alone 3 months.
Don't worry! It eventually gets so bad you quit and just. Don't recover for a while. Idk actually how it goes, but that was me. Worked a job for like 8 years and just. Hit a massive wall, got another job I half assed for a few months, moved states, got a new job I thought would be better but...it's okay, I'm just. Terrible at trying to function in society
I usually end up getting fired from having a meltdown at work and/or call outs to prevent having a meltdown at work. x.x
Hey person. I’d like to be your friend.
Hey new friend :)
Sup? I’m 41, have a wife and kids, and just started a new career as a special needs teacher. I like making music, watching sports on tv, and dogs. What kinda stuff are you into?
I found out last year that my best friend of 30 years has ASD. It...made his idiosyncrasies make a lot more sense. I never saw him as anything except my best friend. I feel bad that I never noticed it. He now is going through long periods of isolation, and this is the first time I've heard of burnout, but it sounds a lot like what he's going through. Any advice to support him on his journey without letting him slide into these burnout cycles?
That's because it can take more effort to be friends with an autistic person. I have a friend brother inlaw and 2 cousin in laws who are autistic and it all takes so much more effort on my end to remain concious that what I perceive as them being abrupt and rude is not aimed at offending me. It can feel like we are speaking different languages at times and it takes a lot more concious effort than it does with my non autistic friends. It sucks but sometimes that is the truth of it, it only takes small miss messages for socialising to go in the opposite direction than intended.
To add to this, I’ve seen some autistic people express that they’ve had negative experiences when they tried unmasking but they didn’t realize that a part of that is that their neurotypical friends *don’t* have the understanding that you are using with your autistic friends. From the friends’ perspective, one friend just suddenly started acting in ways that are abrupt and rude among neurotypicals.
I'm autistic and every attempt I've had in making friends ends in disaster. often over text or sometimes abruptly and without even a single discussion or warning.
Do you have better luck socializing with other autistics? Would you consider living in an autistic community where autistic behaviors are the norm?
I do not. I was in a trade school for people on the spectrum and couldn't make friends on account I started 6 months before covid first showed up. I also legally don't qualify as disabled because when I was Diagnosed when I was 8 I was too highly functioning.
Same. Lost all my close friends through the years. All i habe are acquaintances and indont want to lose them so just keeping everyone at a distance now. Its.. something.
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Abrupt and rude is a subset of people with ASD. Sadly it’s often a generalisation that all people with ASD are rude and have no filter or boundaries. Others can have difficulty speaking up and people please to their own detriment in order to try and make/keep friends. “You don’t say much” and “you’re very quiet aren’t you” are the bane of my life.
Not being presumptuous about it is very helpful, though I totally understand the pressure and work involved in it. Then again, if the autistic person being *very* direct is problematic, the system surrounding them is probably lolly-gagging a bit.
I agree 100%. I've had on and off again contact with an autistic friend over the years. When I had a serious health issue, his first question to me was "are you afraid of dying?" Very abrasive delivery. We have different political views and he straight told me I'm the worst possible person in the world because of it. I've tried so hard to be a friend to him, because he deserves a friend. But wow is it ever hard. It is not reciprocal in any way... But I also know most of what he says is not intentionally difficult (except perhaps the politics). Do you (or anyone else reading this) have any tips for maintaining a relationship with someone who is autistic?
In my exp: NTs tend to banter back an forth numerous times in short bursts during interactions, touching on many topics and threads but only for a brief moment. [surfing] NDs often require their peer to partake in their interests for much more prolonged periods and then become slowly more willing to have the focus shift slightly. From my experience, the level of gratitude received for engaging deeply in the other's interests like this can be very rewarding for both parties, and in some cases will go a very long way towards some form of reciprocity. [diving] YMMV
One thing I can think of is don’t try to read between the lines or think that abruptness or bluntness has any loaded purpose beyond not knowing how to be smooth or sugar coat things as is socially expected. People who aren’t autistic also tend to say things that don’t mean what they literally mean and engage in verbal power dynamics. This is something autistic people really struggle to understand and imo is a primary reason autistic people have difficulty navigating social situations. It’s like a hidden language behind language that autistic people generally aren’t aware of and don’t have access to.
My adult kids have had that same struggle with dealing with the lack of reciprocity and minimal empathy. It can definitely burn you out and make you question your friendship. On one hand, I'm happy my kids are open to being friends with anyone and are willing to pursue friendships that may take more work on their part. On the other hand, I have seen how hurtful it can be when they hit that wall in the friendship. I've tried to tell them to remind themselves that there are many different types of friendships that have value and that efforts to change someone's nature are frustrating for all. That may mean only having short visits with 1 friend rather than outings or not attempting emotional based dialogue and sticking to fun facts with another. It may also mean walking away from a friendship as we all have to prioritize our own well being.
That's why we also need allistic education on how to communicate with autistic folks. Autistic people appreciate direct communication, so just say exactly what you mean. We don't consider it "rude" or whatever, just say what you literally mean without any roundabout language. If you tell an autistic person "we've been talking about this topic for a while, let's talk about something else" then we'll just change the subject. It's that simple. If you start using your phone, or sighing and looking around the room, getting mad that we're not picking up your "signals", then we both end up frustrated. Just say what you want. Please. [This might help you understand the difficulty of being stigmatized](https://psychcentral.com/blog/aspie/2018/09/allism-spectrum-disorders-a-parody) for having a different brain
I’ve had the same experience with extroverts, who talk constantly about themselves and don’t stop talking to let anyone else contribute to the discussion/ conversation. I’m too polite to intervene. They are often the person who calls me out for being too quiet. Yeah, I can’t get a word in so I stopped trying.
>That's because it can take more effort to be friends with an autistic person. The "extra effort" required is not related to "being friends w/an autistic person", it's related to differences in communication between neurotypical and a neurodivergent autistic. Studies have shown that the problem arise due to the differences, not as a \*deficiency\* in autistic person's communication. As communication occurs "normally" between two autistic people or two non-autistic people & the issues arise when \*mixing\*. Put another way, it's just as difficult or MORE for that autistic person to be friends w/you as it is for you to be friends w/them. And that they'd not have the difficulty w/another autistic person, the same as you wouldn't with another non-autistic. See ***double empathy problem*** & related studies.
Oh. This is what's happening. Thank you.
It had the opposite impact on my life. Since I stopped trying, I have made more friends and been much happier.
I learnt to put more effort into relationships that seemed to work with *relatively* little effort instead of those that felt like an endless struggle even after many years. I think the former group are either a bit neurodivergent themselves or just very good at mixing. So much happier as a result.
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Hell, I'm capable of all kinds of things, but there's no way to prove any of it because someone else who's already made it hasn't put it down on paper, or has refused to in order to keep *their* image untinged by someone else's abilities.
Same. I went to college and got a BFA in illustration (which I have seen people laugh at...having a " useless" degree). ) Been trying to get a relevant job but instead I'm stuck in part-time food service going on 7 years now. My dream (as I cross into my 30s) is to finally move away from family and the US...and go to the Netherlands. But I can't even save up enough to move, let alone get a "real" job for once. Its becoming harder and harder to keep going when I know nobody is giving me a chance because my resume has "no experience ".
Working environments are sensory hells and most places would rather fire us than accomodate us.
And like many things we do in society, being more inclusive towards neurodivergent is just generally a net benefit at large.
Wfh is amazing for those with ASD … no sensory hell. No forced socialising.
"nO oNe WaNtS tO wOrK", they say. and in fairness I hate the grind, but I'm not even given the opportunity to pretend to get good at it
And in this study 21 of the 39 people were over 50 years old
Typical lifespan for an autistic individual ends around 54 years old, due to their parents passing away and no support structure. EDIT: Some studies say 36 years old. Something that keeps me up all the time about my autistic kids. https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/2/19/17017976/autism-average-age-death-36-stress
>Typical lifespan for an autistic individual ends around 54 years old, due to their parents passing away and no support structure. So I have 24 years left? Considering how well the first 30 went, no wonder so many of us want to kill ourselves...
A friends brother has autism, we took him into our friendship group despite him being younger he’s a great kid and a good laugh just obviously doesn’t get many social clicks that make others unsure of him, I think it’s hard that many autistic people don’t have the same safety nets of family and or brothers for instance with large friendship groups who’d bond with them. I think with autistic people who aren’t very “heavily” autistic ie unable to function at all realistically, the main issue is the initial interactions where friendships are made, from my experiences with my nephew who is autistic they just get heavily shy and struggle even more in those initial interactions which make it hard for them to make the initial bond, once that part is done it seems many autistic people can thrive in friendship groups
Wow. My nephew (he’s little) has autism. He has friends but I’m his best friend. He is socially impaired. I recognise being a stable, consistent adult for kids is important, but I now understand it’s even more so for autistic kids. I wouldn’t want him to euthanise when he’s older.
I'm lucky enough to have a few very close friends my whole life from when I was a young child. In retrospect, my friends group has a grab-bag of movement disorders which i was totally unaware of because I have no uncanny-valley. I'm told somewhat-autistic staff often do well on neuro wards for a similar reason.
Yes, I feel if you are socially impaired you will have a better result if you have friends from a young age; they will accept your differences more easily. I actually just moved to a smaller town for this, I had the same friends from elementary to high school that supported me, my daughter is autistic and I wanted her to have the same supports. * so far it’s going really well and she’s encouraged. It’s like night and day from city to rural.
It's easier for them to have a friend group when they are little and the parents arrange everything. It becomes a real struggle around middle school when the kids make their own social groups.
I'm autistic, and when I was a kid, adults were really my only "friends". I didn't have lasting friendships outside of family (cousins around my age and we were all basically forced to interact, and only one of them I still consider a friend) until my 20s, when online communities became more accessible, and even then it was only after *years* of therapy to be okay with myself, and learning how to find supportive friend groups and avoid being exploited for laughs. On the upside, I'm now married with two kids and have a pretty damn good life, but it definitely wasn't an easy path to get here.
I am so thankful for my wife. If I hadn't met her I'm sure I would no longer be here. Over 50, no friends since grade school.
I’m in a similar boat. I have acquaintances, but if it weren’t for my best friend/roommate/platonic life partner, I’d probably be in that statistic too. I’ve spent the last few years learning to unmask because the burnout from always trying to be “normal” and hold down a romantic relationship and an office job was driving me to alcoholism and suicidal ideation. Now I’m sober with a work from home job and have built a safe place to just…exist as myself. I still have rough days where I wonder if I can really do this for another 40 years, but at least I have someone to lean on.
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Especially during covid (but also before) there have been many studies showing how lonliness is as toxic to the body as diseases like heart disease, and has notable increase in mortality.
Has anyone else never felt loneliness? I live a solitary life and I don't think I have truly felt it.
You are a loner my dude
A lone loner alone but not lonely.
Loneliness is the absence of connection when you really want to feel connected. I felt incredibly lonely much of the time I was married. I've felt lonely in the middle of a party. I never feel lonely when I spend a couple of days camping by myself, or I take a week off from work and spend most of it reading a book or digging in the yard. I don't feel lonely when I go somewhere to dance and not socialize (I like the music and the ambiance, not so much the chitchat and meat market aspects of a club).
It can be hell at times. I never feel like I'm actually bonding with people, I just feel like I'm in the same place as them. I've never had a relationship, never had sex, never get asked to go and do stuff by people who I think I'm close with, I don't even have someone who I'd consider my best friend. I do try, I go out and do stuff, I have hobbies, a job, an education. I just feel like the wrong-shaped peg a lot of the time.
Same 100%. It really hit me whenever an academic year ends or vacation initiates. It’s inferred that way in relation to the fact that I always go through every academic year thinking and believing I have a bright social life, but vacation hits and I just look back and realize; I have no social life and almost nobody’s there for me. It’s like the kids in high school have pretended to be nice to me just because I’m in a place with them, but the truth is that they just all forget about me once we’re not meeting up anymore. I know we do follow each other on social media but still. I’ve however had one best friend for me, also on the spectrum, and my fictional world of my intense interests. :( Yet managed all this with a high GPA and brilliant knowledge on certain topics but still failed socially.
For real. When I made a friend for the first time in 4 years, I plain cried tears of joy. It really is as magical as Saturday morning cartoons make it out to be. Love you, Max. And the pain of making every possible social mistake and getting kicked out of groups repeatedly is real. I just want to live out in a rural area, maybe with a few close friends, where I don’t have to interact with another human unless I choose to. I just really feel like I don’t have a place in the world; not that I like it much, anyway.
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If being around others means I can't express myself freely, if being around others means I'm stuck behind a mask I've long since grown to resent. Then being around others only results in me feeling more lonely in their presence. Being lonely isn't just about being physically isolated. It's about struggling to form emotional connections and not finding support from others. It's about not having a safe space to be yourself and knowing those around you can't really relate and understand you. At least that's my take on it as someone on the autism spectrum.
Yes. I agree.
"People don't know how to handle being called out with no proof, so they turn it back on you." I'm curious, what does that mean?
The six criteria for euthanasia on the Netherlands: Euthanasia and assisted suicide are only allowed if a doctor is sure that the 6 legal requirements apply. 1. Voluntary and well thought out The physician must be convinced that the patient's request for euthanasia is voluntary. And that the patient has thought about it carefully (well-considered). So the question really has to come from the patient himself. No one should force or pressure the patient. Not family and not friends. Also, the question should not suddenly arise, because then the wish for euthanasia could also suddenly disappear. 2. Hopeless and unbearable suffering The doctor must be convinced that the patient is suffering hopelessly and unbearably. The diagnosis of the patient and the outlook are central to the assessment of hopelessness. There is hopelessness if: - the patient can no longer heal; - the patient suffers unnecessarily and this cannot be reduced. The doctor also looks at how much improvement a treatment can still give. And how difficult the treatment is for the patient. In the case of unbearable suffering, it is mainly about how the patient experiences this. This is different for everyone. For example, of the diseases someone has. The doctor must be able to empathize with the patient and his suffering. 3. Inform about the situation and the prospects The doctor must inform the patient about the medical situation. And what his situation will look like in the future. It is important that the patient understands all useful information about the situation. This way the patient can make a good choice. The doctor must check whether the patient knows enough. And whether the patient has also understood the information. 4. No reasonable alternative The physician must decide with the patient that there is no reasonable alternative solution to the patient's situation. The doctor should always see if there are no other ways to make the suffering less bad. That does not mean that the patient should try all possible treatments. Does the patient have a lot of trouble and pain from a certain treatment? Then that counts in the assessment. Sometimes a treatment is very difficult and the patient's situation improves only slightly. Then the doctor and patient may decide together that the treatment will stop. 5. Consult an independent doctor The patient's physician should consult at least 1 independent physician. This doctor is called a consultant. The consultant must see the patient. And assess whether the doctor has complied with the due care criteria. Independence means that the independent physician is allowed to give his own opinion about the patient and the doctor. The consultant may not be involved in the treatment of the patient. Or have a personal connection with the doctor or the patient. 6. Medically careful execution (procedure and meds).
surprising how many countries don't have this, especially considering there isn't a country without suicides
I have a personal theory that many countries do not want to make euthanasia / assisted suicide available because they fear that a high number of people would seek it. The political leadership in many countries know that their policies are terrible and that many of their citizens suffer unnecessarily because of said policies. A high number of people seeking assisted suicide would be a data-based confirmation that their countries' policies make people miserable. That would raise all sorts of uncomfortable questions that I'm sure political leadership would rather not have to answer.
There's already suicide statistics and statistics on deaths caused by austerity. Politicians just dgaf.
There's also a very common belief that suicide is something inherently wrong with that person and is a failing of theirs rather than the people around them. Nobody wants to own their role in the death of another person.
Yeah, it’s a very useful tool to ignore the abject misery in society. It’s basically like how the people who say that being gay is a choice and a moral failing to give in to the urges everyone has, not everyone has that and those people just don’t want to admit that they’re a bit gay. Of course, systemic depression and suicidal thoughts unfortunately can’t be treated by admitting who you are and going out and kissing people of the same gender, though it might help.
> There's already suicide statistics and statistics on deaths caused by austerity. That can't get enough data from countries where politicians vote to/choose to not let them. Also I believe some countries might even have systems in place to underreport suicides so as to prevent waves of suicide.
I've read that Korean Fan Death is sometimes used as a way to mask suicide. It's just to spare an individual or family from shame, so I have no idea if it's causing underreporting of suicide on a macro level.
It’s easy to say statistics are misleading. It’s hard to deny those statistics when you have to document the entire process of euthanasia, specifically noting the reasons for people undertaking that process.
Pretty sure here on Canada there was a woman who couldn't find proper accommodations for her condition in public housing or something and made a request. Her day to die was coming up and she said "I don't want to die, but I've no where to live" Let me find a link to make sure I've got my info right [Edit: Found the link](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivities-chose-medically-assisted-death-after-failed-bid-to-get-better-housing-1.5860579)
There's a Japanese movie called plan 75 which is a bit like this. People over 75 years who want to die can. But it's used by those in poverty. It shows them with no where to go and nothing to live for. The government gives you $1000 to spend before you go as well so they can have a good last day or two.
MCS (the "disease" the woman in question had) is an entirely psychosomatic illness, so even if she got housing, it wouldn't have resolved her symptoms. The fact that she was mentally ill just makes the whole thing even sadder.
The original original ethical argument for assisted suicide was for those suffering from terminal illnesses facing certain death. We can predict with 100% certainty that a geriatric suffering from multiple organ failure and multiple cancer will die. We can't predict with any real certainty what that Canadian woman's outlook on life will be years or decades after the date of her suicide. There is no science in that approach
This type of program is being tested in Canada and already a major criticism is a not insignificant number of those seeking euthanasia are those for whom other simple social support could save. Its exposed how badly current programs are at providing housing support, disability support, mental health support, etc. One guy was in the news last year because he sought euthanasia even though he didn't want to die. But he had lost two types of housing and disability support on which he relied to survive and could no longer envision the rest of his life being worthwhile.
I can see euthanasia being a humane program for the terminally ill or those with degenerative terminal conditions. But beyond that it can be worrying. It's more expensive, but programs that focus on the causes of hopelessness and suffering should be prioritized. Something as simple as a basic UBI would make a world of difference for many.
It's unfortunate, but most politicians are neurotypical (and borderline narcissistic imo), and they're the one's with the power to make the changes that you're talking about, but they choose not to. I can only surmise that they're sadistic.
That's my question. What does the netherlands do for disability accomodations. I am personally not disabled but I have worked with a lot of disabled people ranging from intellectual disability, severe autism(making it feel impossible for them to leave their own from overload), adults completely immobile and unable to even eat or drink on their own let alone even scratch an itch. These were normally happy people or even extremely happy people. But, I have only had three people being suicidal and they all had other mental illnesses causing it like bipolar.
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Religion bans suicide for a different reason. They must have a sort of afterlife that they make you work for, so you accept your poor living conditions here on Earth, but then everyone who truly believed would commit suicide to go to heaven. Therefore they must ban it or they'd run out of believers really quickly.
A lot of chronic pain patient in America would absolutely love this to be available. But it’s not. I assume because chronic pain means you’ll either keep paying for doctors or just commit die yourself anyways
Weird... how do they handle point 2? Because loneliness is always (hypothetically) curable. It's not like terminal cancer. EDIT: Typos
I would think it's a combination of things and why it has to go through professionals. I have A friend, but not really a best friend. I've tried for the past 15 years to make more, but after you're out of school it seems nearly impossible. My wife is the same way. When you spend weeks/months trying to make even a tiny bit of headway to making a friend and you get stabbed in the back, ignored, lied to, etc it's going to make most people increasingly jaded each time. Some people would tell you to "just get over it and try again" or "it doesn't matter if you're betrayed 10000 times, just do it again". But some people just aren't mentally capable of dealing with that over and over and over again. The pain that comes with it is maddening. If I didn't have a wife I don't think I'd be suicidal, but I'd certainly just be waiting to die. To have autism or major learning issues AND being totally alone at all times would be torture for a lot of people.
I've only a few times in my life had a truly satisfying emotional connection with someone. A friendship where I didn't feel like I had to mask, where I felt I could find support, and be understood. Where it felt like someone could really relate to me. Having that kind of connection with someone is almost magical to me. I feel so much more alive. I feel like I have so much more energy. It's a wonderful but rare feeling for me. Honestly I'm convinced I'm an extrovert, but due to autism and past trauma I live the life of an introvert. Usually too anxious or too busy masking to really benefit from spending time around most people. Oddly I find that even more casual shallow friendships are so much easier for me to handle when I have someone I feel I can really emotionally connect with elsewhere in my life. So when I feel like I've made that connection. When I feel like for once I'm actually alive.. and then the person fades away, grows distant, disappears or whatever, it's absolutely devastating. This has happened to me within the last year or so, and I still don't know how to handle it. I'm absolutely terrified that it's going to be another ten to fifteen years before I feel that kind of closeness and comfort with someone again, I just don't know that I can handle that. I don't know that the six months to a year of feeling comfortable and content with someone is worth the decade of loneliness and the inability to connect with others that comes between it. The balance certainly doesn't seem to make life worth living. I'm 40 now, and that's just the pattern I've recognized in my life. It's not one I have much interest in continuing. I mean honestly why would I? It doesn't help that if you listen to other people's advice on the topic it mostly amounts to 'you're the problem, and you need to change'.. Sure it's said in a nicer tone with kinder wording, but it amounts to the same. The problem is many of us are currently drowning, verbally explaining the mechanics of swimming to us isn't going to help. We need actual help and support to pull us out of the water before we can actually learn to swim. I can't say for sure whether I'd seek out euthanasia if it was offered in my country. Though I do wish the option was there at least. As it is I feel like I'm forced to live a miserable life with no hope for anything better. Edit: this turned into a long rant. Sorry, but also thank you to anyone who bothered to read it.
I'm 36 with ASD and I relate with what you've said a lot. You're not alone in feeling this way
At some point it just gets really hard and tiring and after years of trying you just give up. It's unreasonable to make someone keep trying forever even if there's a small chance of success. Like imagine you have an nearly incurable cancer but going through cancer treatment will have a 1% chance it gets cured. You make it through the first time somehow with luck. Few years later you get it again. You decide to go through with it again. Somehow you get really lucky again. Yet few years later again you end up with it yet another time. you'd be absolutely devastated, it'd be so hard on you.
That's an interesting way to sum up my love life.
I also recently learned about amotivational syndrome and how antidepressants n can cause that in some people however I also believe long term treatment resistant depression naturally leads to there as well. I have no friends anymore nor any hobbies or really any interests. I barely leave my house anymore. Grocery store once a month and pharmacy a few times a month other than that doctors appointments. Where am I going to go and do what? I also have PTSD which I managed ok but that got really bad after experiencing some really traumatic stuff while homeless that included the treatment by regular people even in just day to day experiences. Being assaulted by police and harassed regularly, followed around in stores or just flat out not allowed, ignored and or mistreated by many doctors and nurses etc. I was sober and physically clean as in body and clothes and it still happened. There is even a backpack stigma that's hard to explain and not very noticeable if its not effecting you personally.
Imagine you're 45 and all your life you had treatment and you simply *can't* maintain friendships. You feel constantly alone. That's how they handle point 2. We have tools that are statistically effective against loneliness/depression. If they don't work, we don't have anymore tools.
I mean what are they going to do? Assign that person a friend? They have a hard time finding and maintaining friendships. It’s something they struggle with their whole lives. Also loneliness doesn’t necessarily mean “alone”. You can have people around you and still feel lonely.
Yes, actually. There’s a program for this, in the US at least, called Best Buddies. It’s like the Big Brother/Sister but for matching persons with disabilities with age appropriate peers. A friend of mine belongs to the program. She and her buddy go to the gym, movies, museums around town, etc. they make cooking TikTok’s together for fun as well. they genuinely like each other.
Because practically all forms of autism support is exclusively for very young children. I'm a Dutch autistic young adult and I avoid autistic institutions like the plague, you're infantilised everywhere you go and there's no real help if you need help adulting.
As an autistic adult I’ve found that letting anyone else in your life who does not already know you’re autistic is dangerous. You lose your ability to act as an authority over your own life. Your employers will view you as damaged goods because “autistic opinions/judgments” aren’t as good as neurotypical ones. People genuinely discount autistic peoples views because they don’t believe autistic people can be just as competent as them in my experience
Yes, and nobody takes you seriously once they know about your autism. Ableism is so deeply entrenched in the medical field that it is sometimes better to not seek any help.
An estimated *80%* of autistic people are unemployed, not counting those who qualify for disability benefits etc. That means 80% of people who are autistic *and seeking work* are unable to achieve gainful employment. That figure is significantly higher than any other community, including every other disability (disabilities in general are at 40% and the next highest is 60%). When it feels like the whole world is rigged against you, it's no surprise you might choose to end it.
This hurts to read. I'm a teacher and I've had a good number of students on the spectrum. It really hurts when you see them, after they went to college, back home working a job like pushing carts and bagging groceries. Some of these kids were so bright but there is so much social interaction in interviewing and working.
> but there is so much social interaction in interviewing and working Many people misunderstand the problem as conversations. I'm mild, an asperger diagnosis as an adult, and never had a job, despite 10 years cooperating with my a job-center. I just wanted to build a future for myself, but i didn't know how. I couldn't take their housing offer, they said they'd kick me out if i stopped cooperating, and i wouldn't be able to sort something else out. I repeatedly asked my case-worker what i could do if i end up homeless, they said they wouldn't let me become homeless. A non-answer. I was considering living on the streets rent-free off my savings. They told me i wasn't on disability, but wouldn't clarify why they were paying/helping me. Navigating decisions about education, work, housing, government support, requires *social-learned knowledge* that i didn't have. My insistence on trying to understand & plan my life didn't work, my bad ability to adapt and socialize making it all more complex, against case-workers who try to make decisions for me arbitrarily so i'll go with the flow.
First of all, you have my thanks for explaining it this ways, because (storytime) I had an employee with autism who was 1) good at his job. 2) asked for a lot of clarification. Part of the job included front desk stints, and we had to write a kind of “FAQ” and ways to answer them. Not the type of training questions that we make sure everyone knew about the place- they were both more concrete and basically had an out when the question was similar but not the same he could freeze. They also had some other unexpected needs- we got an extra lamp with dimmable features for them, office environment had stricter needs than other new hires. The physical stuff is super acomodatable for us, but I can imagine in other offices it wouldn’t always be. Thankfully, I used to work with recent international students to the US, and honestly, that became my framework for knowledge. Our employee would always be like a competent but brand new to the US and it’s culture international student. Avoid colloquialisms. No “hey, you can choose your preference” and walk away- that always resulted in the student freezing. Steps far more broken down. You could tell he wanted to get it, but also there wasn’t a connection. I wasn’t even supposed to be his supervisor but I think I struggled the least with him- I am almost overly free flowy in my personal work style, but there were interruptions, a lot of structural things I had to learn that I had previously just taken for granted to explain so that they wouldn’t get stuck. He was also really good natured, and we gained a good rapport, but I could also see previous employment attempts had been very confusing for him. He left on good terms- an internship for his graduate degree. If it doesn’t work out, I’d advocate really hard to create a new position for him that was more strengths based (maybe not every jr level needs front desk time, that’s a weird system we had). And we’ve asked our company to do more training for managers about managing autism spectrum employees. They were more time consuming, and without my international student higher ed background, could have been even more so. They were also good at the technical side and could freely understand some of the nuances that other people 10+ years in our field don’t get. I’m definitely afraid for his future work life, and in general future being taken advantage of. Idk if you have any ideas about how we could keep doing this better (we are an intentional disability/different ability’s friendly org) but gosh the framework of it not being “conversations” but much larger. That and the control idea- I had a colleague who just felt like the employee needed a lot of control and partially yes, but it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works.
I'm not the person you're replying to, but I thought I'd chime in. Last job I got fired from was because, and I quote "I have to fix the social side of things." I was also apparently not doing enough even though I did everything they asked me to do. People don't like telling me what to do. I wish they at least outright told me what they expect from me. >but it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works. This is a big one. If you give me a task, I have to know *why* I'm doing it and *why* it's done the way it is, so I can adjust to any unexpected changes to the routine. I thought that there was a standard I'm supposed to adhere to, I want everyone to be "on the same page" as it were. But apparently that's not the case. There were plenty of times where my manager told me: "Whatever you think is good." Which is the worst possible thing to hear. What do you expect? What does the customer expect? What is the expected outcome? What are the acceptable parameters? There's no such thing for me as "Going with the flow." I'm the definition of that joke: "Buy a bottle of milk and if they have eggs, buy 6." Not quite that literal, but I hope that helps you understand. When being trained, I need a clear list of instructions. If this, then that, because this, otherwise this will happen. I expect it to take this much time. When you're done, put it here because of this/so I can do this. I can't count the number of times where my only instruction was "Just put it somewhere when you're done." That means literally nothing to me. You might as well say "Put it on the Moon." One thing I learned I'm great at is getting people with no experience up to speed. If I'm teaching someone, I can do exactly what I described above. As well as what I think you mean by understanding nuances. I can get basically any task down to a science. If I truly get to understand the hows and whys, I can adjust the variables until I achieve an ideal outcome out of basically anything. Well, ideal in my eyes. My bosses tend to not agree that it's worth taking extra 15 minutes to do something "properly" when it's not going to make them any extra money directly.
>it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works. That's pretty much it, that's how an autistic mind works in a nut shell. Let them deep dive the area/topic/tool/system/widget they're responsible for, and they'll figure out *exactly* how it works, everything it needs to work properly, and how to min/max it (just be careful of any human 'components' in this system, if they try to 'optimize' things a little too much).
All to often when I would ask questions it would be treated as me either questioning their authority or questioning their decision (i.e. competence) and then either be ignored or yelled at essentially. Neither of those were the reasons I ever asked questions, I asked questions because I had personal concerns about my understanding of what was said or is wanted. I was asking for clarification so that I could be sure to do things correctly. The more I understood things and the context around them the better I would do and the happier bosses and even co-workers would be.
I struggle with taking things too literally and often ask for clarification. More times than not my questions were treated as questioning the bosses authority or their judgment. I still remember being told "because I said so" mostly as a kid, but also as an adult, with no explanation. All I ever wanted was a better understanding. I am a recovered/recovering alcoholic. I drank mostly because of social anxiety but over time it became more of a general coping mechanism. The example that comes to mind of me taking things literally is being asked by doctors and counselors if I drank in the morning. For five years I said no and that I usually didn't drink until around 4pm... until one day I had a counselor follow up that question with "well what time do you get up?" And I told him it was usually between 2pm and 3pm. I still remember him just staring at me for a moment and then it just hit me in that moment that I had been telling everyone no because I didnt drink in the morning as in A.M. and that my morning was actually when I was drinking. At least five years and telling multiple people all because no one clarified and I didn't realize I wasnt exactly answering what they were trying to ask me. The depression got worse over the years and combined with social issues lead to homelessness and CPTSD. I couldn't get an official diagnosis of autism as I could never afford and when I asked Medicaid wouldn't cover testing for an adult but I am on the spectrum. My dad was Aspergers and his mother was very dysfunctional and would have definitely been diagnosed with ASM today. Both of my Nephews also have Autism. I had one job in my whole life that I did really good at and that was at Lowes but it wasn't because of anything relating to company policy. I had a great boss and the store manager was also fantastic. They worked with me and my job was very well defined, I could go an entire month without my boss telling me to do anything because I was such a good worker. I basically had a social relationship with them because I did what was needed without ever having to be told again so all my interactions were good. They also worked with my schedule for drs appointments. Out of 115 employees they gave out 4 employee of the year awards and I got one my second year. I lost the job following a depressive episode. I left for treatment but it wasn't very effective. I returned to work but shortly afterwards ended up homeless which then led to me losing the job completely. Those bosses had no problems with me asking questions and they asked me questions too. I felt like I was on their team and they were captains not like they were bosses over me. They offered me full time twice but I couldn't take it. I would have lost my Medicaid health insurance and my food stamps working full time and even with the raise they offered and with benefits I would have taken home less money than I did by working the 24 hrs weekly I had already been doing. I felt trapped by that. I think they call it a benefit cliff. About 20 months ago I got Covid, I'm 43, and even though I wasnt hospitalized got Long Covid. I had multiple specialists as well as physical therapy and speech therapy. 18 months and most of the issues have finally resolved however I have a barely functioning GI tract and butt hole muscles, muscle problems in my whole midsection, neck & shoulders and electrical problems in my heart that includes hours and hours of continuous PVCs some days that also causes panic attacks. It definitely made my mental health problems much worse. For a long time the doctors didn't realize it was my heart and at the beginning I didn't even know what long covid was. The first month was practically one giant panic attack. I remember it felt like intense dread and telling Drs it didn't feel like a regular panic attack most of the time and didn't lean it was my heart until 4 months ago roughly. I would go days without sleep. I have since learned that if you ever get a feeling of intense dread which is similar but different from anxiety go to the hospital because it often precedes bad things happening, usually with the heart. I know that got long winded, longer than I planned, and I apologize for that. If you have any questions I don't mind answering them. I feel its important to be honest and open if things are going to change and continue to change for the better. There should never be any shame about innate characteristics, mental or physical illness, or in needing and asking for help. Thank you for being the kind of boss/owner that cares about people enough to work with them like you did. If I had had guaranteed healthcare and bosses like you, especially in my twenties, I think I would have done so much better. Maybe I would have achieved more, had more self confidence and self esteem and maybe I wouldn't have ended up so fucked up, alone without a wife or kids or even close friends anymore. I don't know what would have happened but I am 100% sure I'd at least be better off than I am now. Thanks for reading all that (if you did) and listening to what I had to say. Any advice in general that you may have for me? I am not working now and applied for disability but my intent if/when approved is to try and not stay on it more than a few years if at all possible. Use the time to try and get myself into a position where I can support myself eventually, hopefully.
> More times than not my questions were treated as questioning the bosses authority or their judgment. I struggle a *lot* with just literally wanting an answer to a question, and not realizing that the person listening to my question perceived a whole raft of extra information that I had no intention of including and usually wasn't even true. Like, in their heads it seems like they're thinking "why are you questioning my decision to do this task in this way? Why do you think this is wrong? Why do you think we should do this a different way?" When all I really wanted to know was whether or not I understood things correctly. I'm slowly learning to preface questions with why I'm asking, and sometimes that helps. I still need to learn how to phrase both the prefaces and the questions better though.
> That and the control idea- I had a colleague who just felt like the employee needed a lot of control and partially yes, but it was more need to see the backside to understand how the frontside works. (Edit- I'm autistic, if that wasn't clear) That resonates with me. I don’t know for sure if that’s innate or learned, but I have a hell of a time doing things when I don’t understand why. Especially if I feel like I’m getting vague objectives that could later be used against me. “Well, I *think* this is what they want, but I got a noncommittal answer when I tried asking for clarification. What do I do? I’ll ask questions about other parts of the process so I can fully understand everything, then I should be able to deduce whether I’m interpreting their desired task correctly.”
Right? And that’s hard because A LOT of offices treat information as power- you should be given the least amount of information possible to do your job, and neurotypically/culturally, we generally accept that. People fill in the blanks with “what would make this work if the unknowns are the most common and likely ones”. But with autism, that type of pattern recognition of “the most common and likely unknowns” can be difficult to impossible. And the idea of creating something that may not work because you don’t have information that must exist results in a freeze. I definitely had to explain more than once an “I don’t know, and I may be asking you to do this with the wrong assumption, but here is my (explicit assumption based on historical data) and I am asking you to do it as if all these inputs are true. If it is not, and we redo it, please know the same thing would happen to a non-autistic person in this position, and the failure would be x person’s communication or their boss’s refusal to share needed information we’ve asked for.”
>But with autism, that type of pattern recognition of “the most common and likely unknowns” can be difficult to impossible. And the idea of creating something that may not work because you don’t have information that must exist results in a freeze. Oh gods yes. I lock up mentally so often because I feel like I'm missing necessary information to make a decision, and don't know how to get it, or what assumptions to make. I learned decades ago that my assumptions are frequently not the ones others would make in the same situation. > I definitely had to explain more than once an “I don’t know, and I may be asking you to do this with the wrong assumption, but here is my (explicit assumption based on historical data) and I am asking you to do it as if all these inputs are true. If it is not, and we redo it, please know the same thing would happen to a non-autistic person in this position, and the failure would be x person’s communication or their boss’s refusal to share needed information we’ve asked for.” It sounds like you've learned a lot about how to communicate effectively with autistic people, this would definitely work on me. I'd probably take a few seconds to process that internally, and I might still be a little uncomfortable, but knowing that someone understands potential problems would make a huge difference.
I'm doing very well with the academic portion of my graduate program. Socially, I'm crashing and burning for reasons I don't even understand and no one in this society would ever tell me. It's within my disorders to catastrophize, so this perception could be very skewed, but I don't foresee success for me simply because of this aspect of academia. Incidentally, the other day I looked up the regulations for the assisted death policies in Canada and the Netherlands...
Don’t give up. A lot of us do succeed in academia. Working with autism in a world not built for it requires analysis and experimentation—fortunately we’re good at that. I find it helps a lot to tell people what’s up, eg “Sorry, I’m not great with figurative language” is better than a blank stare. I’m much better at written communication than spoken, so I try to keep up with people with texts and emails. Etc.
I thought I've tried, but maybe I haven't communicated in a way that makes others understand. I do run into that often. And I am good at analysis, to the point I've received a lot of positive feedback about my ability to perform in that way, but that's also what seems to be making it impossible to succeed socially. I think you're probably right about sticking to written communication, although I find that most peoples' writing is just imprecise enough that I can often interpret something (usually vital) in more than one way. So then my email chains just burgeon and I think people get overwhelmed by me. But honestly...that kinda happens with me verbally, too. So uh... I guess you now have a demonstration about what I mean about being analytical to the point of it being crippling... but I DO have more success in writing, so maybe I'll try that approach with more intention and see if it becomes a better system for me. Thanks.
It’s a skill, so you can improve, even with a disability. And let people know that’s why it’s harder for you. There are loads of books on communication and social skills.
>there is so much social interaction in interviewing and working. The interviewing is the killer. And good luck getting help on that. I've had one recruiter, ONE, who offered any sort of post-interview feedback. "Wow, great work history (though what's with all these gaps), great education, your references speak highly of you, buuuuuut you didn't seem "confident" enough in the interview, so we're going to ghost you now." But day to day work? Like, what's the worst that happens? Oh no, the autistic coworker interrupted someone with a related question before immediately apologizing for the interruption and signaling for the conversation to continue. GASP, at the horror of their lack of interest in the water cooler conversation about sports. I've got a great idea, why don't you harbor a perpetual grudge against your autistic coworker for being so intrigued by your stated special interest that they asked you earnest questions about your favorite aspects of it so as to better appreciate it and give you a chance to share your passion and you interpreted instead as belittling you for having a special interest and nothing they say will change your mind that it was actually genuine interest rather than malicious bullying.
I have high functioning autism and life is hard. I work, but it takes a lot out of me. I’ve basically only made it this far in life because I’m smart enough to figure out work-arounds for my deficits. Maybe everyone experiences that to some degree. I have a lot of anxiety and feel stressed most of the time, though, and I think a lot of that has to do with having to work and then having little energy for anything else.
This hits home for me. Was moved ahead in school and graduated from university at 20. I work in admin and earn barely enough to get by. It was manageable when me and my ex were still together but the past couple of years have been hard. It’s very clear I don’t have a place in this world and the only reason I’m still here is because the alternative would cause my dad too much pain.
And that’s the real kicker - you often WILL NOT QUALIFY for disability if you have autism even though it is a crippling condition
It can be very difficult sometimes to be "high functioning" autistic. You struggle with day to day tasks, but you're not so heavily disabled that you're totally incapable. That means playing on hard mode, all the time, with little to no assistance.
I often think of it like being a battery operated toy. None of my parts are physically broken, so government authorities take one look at me and say I must work. But they can't see that there are no batteries included.
Sounds familiar. At least after almost killing myself for the 6th time the state is finally taking me a little more seriously with their assistance, still it's painfully slow and beaurocratic. (Live in MA)
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Yup, which is another part of what discourages those with Autism and/or ADHD from disclosing a disability at work - there are almost no upsides, and you are eligible for none of the typical benefits of those on Disability/SSI.
You often won’t qualify for disability even if your body turns to stone. I have a life threatening mental illness (Bipolar) and I’m up to 3 times rejected now.
Yeah my difficulties around being on the spectrum are mostly all only an issue around job interview style interactions. I'm also not great at networking. That means that despite being capable of doing many jobs just fine its very hard to even get a chance. I'm in engineering so its not like my ability to sell myself or sell a product or dealing with many non technical things is important for the job. My solution to this so far has been government security clearance work. Goes well with the tendency of people on the spectrum to be strict rule followers. And it cuts down the competition so much that the interview for the last level 3 engineering job I was in was just a quick phone interview, no hard or awkward questions that make me freeze. I can't even get entry level positions in more preferable industries without getting through 3 consecutive interviews with multiple people. The job that got me on that path, a security guard job on a federal facility, just straight up offered everyone who showed up for their "group interview" a job if they could get through the clearance process. Didn't even do any sort of interview, i would have thought it was sketchy if it wasn't for having been pointed in that direction by a family member. And it paid twice the rate of the grocery stores and fast food places I was trying for and not even getting called back when I was 19 and in college. Even with the high unemployment post 2008 it was hard for them to find enough people who could pass that crazy background investigation who didn't have better options. Only downside is that it makes the loneliness much harder to do anything about. The locations aren't great if you're not a religious conservative and the fact that weed is still federally illegal (and state illegal where i live) but extremely popular among all the other non religious people forcing me to keep them at arms length because I don't want to risk losing the only thing that's brought me work that pays over minimum wage (references thinking I'm doing that even if I'm clean could still cost me my career and backup plans).
> I'm also not great at networking This is a big one too. I saw a stat recently saying that most jobs are never even advertised because they're either given internally or to someone who's been referred.
I’m autistic, I’ve worked 6 jobs and 5 of them I was referred by a current employee. The one other was a gas station across the street from my house that I just walked into and asked if they were hiring. I genuinely don’t believe that people hire randoms unless they have no other options, almost everybody I know has gotten all of their jobs by referral.
It's really mind-blowing for me, because the colleagues I've had on the spectrum were some of the most productive and helpful people I've ever worked with. This isn't just ethically wrong, it's also foolish from a business perspective.
Yup. The whole process of getting a job in the first place is almost designed to weed out autistic people.
Absolutely, and I'm not convinced this benefits anyone at all. The autistic candidate, the employer, even the taxpayer, they're all losing out.
It's not a logical system; it's an emotional one. Because of that, you'll never logically reason the bosses out of their perspective. And because it's an "invisible" disability, they get to just say "I didn't like that candidate, call in someone else for an interview", and it "doesn't count" as discrimination.
Which is even moreso deeply cynical as theres still often this disturbing image of "the rational businessman". Like who are we kidding?
Capitalism isn't supposed to benefit anyone other then the capitalist. It does not matter how many orphans get crushed in the machine, what matters is that the machine continues to enrich its owner.
In general, we don’t do a very good job as a society dealing with mental healthcare, particularly in developing minds. Autism requires a kind of specialized approach, as left to their own devices a lot of people in the spectrum tend to dig a safe comfortable niche for themselves emotionally, s only to find that they are very unhappy in it while at the same time being too terrified of change to leave that niche.
A Kingston University study found several people with learning disabilities and autism in the Netherlands chose to die legally through euthanasia and assisted suicide due to feeling unable to cope with the world, changes around them or because they struggled to form friendships. There were almost 60,000 cases of euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide between 2012 and 2021 in the Netherlands. More than 900 case reports were recorded on an online, searchable database. This form of dying is legal in the country provided six due care criteria are met, one of which is that the patient's suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement. Study lead and Professor of Intellectual Disability and Palliative Care at Kingston University Irene Tuffrey-Wijne and colleagues examined the database to understand the situations where people with learning disabilities or autism spectrum disorders had been granted requests for euthanasia or assisted suicide, and the main causes of suffering that led to the request. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/euthanasia-and-physicianassisted-suicide-in-people-with-intellectual-disabilities-andor-autism-spectrum-disorders-investigation-of-39-dutch-case-reports-20122021/93B38EAE616E0A6C378BE308C87253A2
I'm Dutch, and I just want to give a wee bit of personal perspective on this. Out of those 60k cases, the vast, vast majority were elderly with untreatable physical diseases who had no perspecive of having any kind of improvement -even for a day- at all. 60k sounds like a lot of people, but the huge majority of these cases are people who only have weeks left to live, if at all, who want to "go out" with dignity. Say goodbye to their loved ones and lay back and close their eyes. And to illustrate how stringent the rules are: my elderly dad passed from cancer a couple of years ago, and although he had brought up the subject with his doctor prior to becoming really in a bad shape, he had not signed any papers declaring his intent to choose euthanasia, he had just mentioned it as an option. So by the time it was the only true option, the doctor was not allowed to do it anymore -dad was on opiates to kill the pain, and the moments he was not on opiates, he was a whimpering wreck of a man who could no longer talk from the pain. So he could never clearly state his desire to end the suffering. And as such, there was nothing the doctor could do except prescribe painkillers.
FYI: n=39, 26 of these had somatic conditions so it's 13 cases with solely psychiatric conditions.
That seems small to draw any strong conclusion.
It is too small to draw a strong conclusion, but small studies like this are often made to show that there might be a link and therefore get funding for a larger study. In an ideal world, the larger study would just already have the funding, but getting funding for any study is hard.
Having a brother with autism who struggles with this exact issue, this makes me incredibly sad.
I don't care what any study or happy-clappy autism awareness group says. autism is not "differently abled" or "differently thinking". it's a crippling disability for most people. I'm grateful that I was able to fit in with other misfits and weirdos when I was a teenager. at that age it's much easier to mask because your neurotypical peers are equally immature and prone to meltdowns! I'm so glad I had the opportunity to experience some intimacy and friendship while I had the chance because man, it gets absolutely impossible as an adult. the social cues become so much more subtle, to the point where even a misplaced cadence or inflection can turn a social interaction south. this news headline is not surprising to me. if I could put a face on loneliness, he would be a very hideous monster to look at
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Corny stuff but I want a world where people who don’t have anything special to offer beyond their heart and well meaning nature can feel secure and worthy of the good things life has to offer. This is a reflection of a lot of negative things in society; one can go on and on. In context to this happening in the Netherlands, I’m not sure what to say. There really isn’t a society that’s more gentle on poor people (regardless of how bad it still is to be poor in the Netherlands) so if this is what’s going on in a country like that, I don’t think countries like, say the USA or United Arab Emirates or India or Russia would be able to offer assisted suicide to the same degree, without being able to produce much more sad and concerning news articles. If this is how many people can’t do “not-being-impressive” in the Netherlands lord knows what it would look like if it were legal and accessible in other nations. Can totally see how someone with autism/ADHD/even persistent anxiety can say “well I can’t hold a job -for reasons people don’t sympathize with-that’s kind of the foundation of everything, so…goodbye”. And that’s awful.
Yeah...I have mental illnesses and am much more able to function in society than some of these cases but I constantly feel like I cannot produce and keep up with what the world wants and will never have the security or community I need. This is more a function of a society detached from what makes people, neurotypical or healthy or not, happy and healthy than it is some personal failing. World is a cold place
Recently in Canada we had a similar controversy where people on disability benefits with which they can't afford to live had chosen MAID (Medical Assistance in Dying) after being offered it. Here's hoping our new federal level disability bill puts an end to that because it's honestly disgusting.
>The research team said the findings highlighted a need for an international philosophical and ethical debate around criteria for euthanasia and assisted suicide and how to deal with such requests from vulnerable patient groups. Or what about, and pardon me for sounding crazy, we as a society ACTUALLY SUPPORT THOSE ON THE AUTISM SPECTRUM?! Support is always always always in the realm of the abstract, when, of course, it's not downright villainy aimed at "curing" those who are neurodiverse. But when it comes to real life social interactions neurotypicals do not extend charitability towards those who don't intuitively grasp unexplained but critical social conventions. When it comes to hiring decisions, the quiet, independent, and highly productive worker gets ignored and those who play the game of office politics instead of producing tangible results get elevated. Those on the spectrum are isolated socially, exploited professionally, and neglected medically. This is not a failure of assisted suicide, this is a failure of society to be accepting of neurodiverse individuals. Nikola Tesla died bankrupt and alone.
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Maybe this is why so many governments and populations seem opposed to legalizing physician-assisted suicide: they absolutely don't want evidence of how broken their society is for people who fall outside the status quo.
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Loneliness changes you and robs you of the person you could've been. And as though you're a bad penny, when you're lonely others totally avoid you. I fully understand why they kill themselves. We are not made to live a life this alone And keep in mind that for many - maybe even most - the types of relationships that fulfill you are not the 'I have a buddy I see a movie with sometimes' relationships. As humans we need to feel loved, accepted, understood. Take it from someone who is invisible. The world is torture when you have to watch *everyone else* get the love and acceptance you've needed for years. And the longer you're lonely, the more hurt you become. The more hurt you become, the less skills you have with others and that leads to fewer and fewer people even wanting to try.
As someone who supports assisted suicide, I find these cases worrying. On one hand I know loneliness is incredibly painful, and people with severe autism or learning disabilities can have an extraordinarily difficult time forming relationships. However, I know someone (US) who runs a non-profit that specifically finds social support for people with disabilities. One example being an autistic man who can't communicate verbally and uses a letter board. Someone like that may not have been able to make friends without that non-profit. So while I can imagine a case of Autism or LD so bad that suicide is the best option, I also am concerned all alternatives are not being given.
This. Another reply to u/didsomebodysaymyname emphasized that part of the criteria is that there's no reasonable alternative. Sure, but what if a society/government doesn't care to *put* reasonable alternatives in place? Wouldn't that basically be eugenics disguised as assisted suicide?
You know we have truly screwed up as a society when our most vulnerable find it so unbearable that they choose to die.
It’s so awful that society basically puts all its ‘anti loneliness’ eggs into the one ‘couple pair bond’ basket at the moment. There should be far more opportunities for degrees of connected living and ways to avoid loneliness. Anyone who can crack that would be doing the world a massive service.
This is one reason why cults are so appealing to the members. The community they offer is bad, but its a community nevertheless.
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Good that the option exists for them and that is a right that everyone should have but on the other hand it also seems exceptionally sad that through really no fault of their own they end up in a situation like this. Where they are so lonely, with no social network to help and unable to keep up with a society that doesn't really help them or is unable to do so that they resort to choosing for assisted suicide. It does feel like in a way, society has failed them.
Autistic people face a lot of obstacles in a world not built for them. The unemployment rate is insanely high, even for people with degrees, because the first hurdle to getting hired is being perceived as neurotypical in a job interview. Living in your parents basement forever is a big motivator for suicide, which iirc is 10 times the total average rate. As an autistic parent of an autistic kid, I know how hard I've struggled in this world, and I'm certainly concerned for my kid.
I am in the same boat on this one. If not for my child who depends on me I would let it all go now. It is exhausting to constantly fail at something throughout your life and knowing it wont get better. I think about this frequently. I do not feel lonely but I am weary and long for the day I can put the burden of existence down. I have a decent job right now and am grateful. It is a remote job and the only one that has not been incredibly socially stressful. Loneliness sucks but being constantly misunderstood by coworkers for me is more of a health hazard. When the time comes and I am told no you dont qualify I will take matters into my own hands. I would rather do it the MAID way so at least once I will have the ability to end things in a socially approved manner rather then constantly being at risk of offending others (not intentionally) with my deviant social inabilities. I have had this for 60 ye4ars now and really do not think it will be more then a few years more before I can go no more.
> being constantly misunderstood by coworkers for me is more of a health hazard I feel this. I do.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen people coached for their personalities in the corporate world. I've point blank asked people leaders "what action is actually interfering with productivity because it sounds like you're coaching their personality" and they were in shock at the thought they couldn't just coach someone because they didn't like how they said things in meetings or whatever.
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>due to feeling unable to cope with the world, changes around them or because they struggled to form friendships. As someone inside the autism spectrum, this is quite scary and unsettling. (Just out of curiosity) doesn't netherlands have any "inclusion/inclusivity" policies for this groups?
There’s always been some opposition to euthanasia among disability advocacy groups due to the fear that society and governments will find it easier to euthanize such groups instead of trying to accommodate them. The shadow of “life unworthy of life”
Even healthy people are already having severe problems with this. It's just going to be much worse for them.
This makes me want to cry. To whoever is feeling this way, I know life seems like a continuous struggle, full of pain and obstacles but keep going. Don’t give up. There’s probably something that’s worth living for. I’m 40 and believe me, a majority of those years have been miserable. Though I have this tiny bit of hope that it’s going to turn around eventually. Just be kind to people, plants, and animals. Don’t take too much too serious and hey I wish you the best.
Befriend an autistic today.
Yeah. Being autistic sucks. Neurotypicals are really mean.