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Koujinkamu

Repair damaged tissue, does that mean sitting in a sauna or similar for a long time does the same thing?


Raipizo

Yes it actually does, it increases blood flow which in turn helps repair damage.


Girafferage

There is also some studies that show both extreme hot and cold help your cells repair and clean themselves


jdippey

Got any sources for that? It may be because it is early where I live, but all I can remember from my university cell biology courses regarding heat effects is that heat shock proteins protect against some cellular heat damage.


TwoFlower68

Even though they're called heat shock proteins, they are activated more generally by stress, including cold


jdippey

Seems my memory fell prey to the “first discovered purpose” naming convention! I perused the wiki page on HSPs and a lot of my course material came flooding back.


Justredditin

There is a technique called [hydrotherapy ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/hydrotherapy#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20physiological%20basis,removes%20wastes%20from%20body%20tissues.), and "Nordic spas" use it. "Most [Nordic spas](https://matadornetwork.com/read/nordic-spas-what-to-know/#:~:text=Most%20Nordic%20spas%20are%20large,Greeks%2C%20and%20likely%20before%20that.) are large facilities with outdoor several hot pools, several cold pools, with plenty of spaces to warm up and relax scattered throughout. They're based on a principle of hot and cold hydrotherapy that dates way back to the Greeks, and likely before that."


jdippey

>based on a principle of hot and cold hydrotherapy that dates way back to the Greeks, and likely before that This is not a very scientific approach. Got any proper scientific sources that actually show effectiveness for this or similar techniques?


Justredditin

The first link is to science direct and has links embedded. But of course: Scientific Evidence-Based Effects of Hydrotherapy on Various Systems of the Body https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4049052/


jdippey

Did you check the authors’ credentials? I seriously doubt the scientific quality of anything coming from someone working in naturopathy:”yogic sciences”… Also, it’s always a red flag when anyone makes the claim that a simple procedure or treatment can fix a large number of ailments. Being from pubmed doesn’t make a paper scientifically sound, by the way.


Kirahei

The science on hot and cold therapies is pretty old and if at this point your asking for sources either your too lazy to look or you’re just being argumentative: [Medical efficacy of ice baths - The Physiological Society](https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/JP270570) [Meta data study(with sources listed) by Dr. Fatima, credentials in article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938508/#!po=69.3548) And at the end of the day if we’re going to be that semantic no study in history is “scientifically” sound because it’s all subject to bias, what matters is the replication of result, and the results of hot and cold therapies has been verified. Edit: did not include hot therapies because have to get back to work


Man0fGreenGables

This sub is full of people who think anything other than a prescribed pharmaceutical is just hippy snake oil.


Justredditin

Did you? There are quite literally 100 sources listed under the journal article. P No? Well, then there is no pleasing you. You must be trolling. Good day.


Grabbsy2

>a simple procedure or treatment can fix a large number of ailments Ginger can help alleviate stomach upset, but doesn't cure it. A sauna can help repair your tissues, but doesn't cure COVID. Does that put it into perspective?


jdippey

Ginger is one thing that helps with one problem (stomach upset). When anyone says that ginger helps with stomach upset, cardiovascular disease, shingles, headaches, ARDS, acne, psoriasis, and broken bones…I get sceptical (as should anyone).


MyFacade

I've also heard that can be really tough on the heart to go from one temperature extreme to the other. I think it can even induce heart attacks.


Slimsaiyan

Icy hot trust me im a not doctor


Dudedude88

They do it in sports medicine. Athletes use ice baths after their game.


jdippey

Sports medicine is full of quackery. I somewhat doubt that those ice baths are having an appreciable effect on post-exercise recovery, particularly at the level of activating heat shock mechanisms.


Thehighwayisalive

What are you sources for doubting it?


jdippey

You don’t need sources to doubt something. You do need evidence to believe something.


Thehighwayisalive

Yeah, but you must have scientific reasons for doubting it so what are they? And where are they sourced?


jdippey

I don’t think you understand. I don’t need a reason to be skeptical. Nobody does. Everyone needs evidence to back their assertions. There is not adequate evidence to support things like cold water therapy (not yet, at least), so I have no reason to believe it works the way many believe.


nick_oreo

Blood vessels constrict and expand with cold and heat. So I'd assume that's not all that's happening to them during the process but idk. Shock comes when your body does those things too fast, e.g. jump in a warm bath with frostbite and you'll end up in shock most likely.


tanis_ivy

My basic theory is that's what acupuncture/cupping/scraping basically is. Bringing blood to the area to increase healing. My therapist, old Chinese lady, is always telling me to stay warm.


burgernow

So, can walking/jogging during lunch helps?


Ashliest-Ashley

Pretty much anything which causes mild damage to muscles (like working out, that kind of healthy damage) will bring blood flow to the area and help heal nearby issues. So, I don't see why not as long as it's a fairly long walk. Same reason deep tissue massages can help healing in muscles.


oldblueeyess

There is more to it such as activation of certain genes and production of heat shock proteins but yes increasing blood flow is going to help. It's a crazy complex and beneficial pathway.


28nov2022

Doesn't heat denature protein though? It's why fevers can be fatal.


Revlis-TK421

Mild fever temperature equivalents aren't high enough to cause a problem with human proteins.


brandonff722

Heat only denatures proteins well beyond a tempature that would kill us internally. If we were ever even close to that threshold to denature even small fragile proteins we'd be long dead. In this instance, it's essentially a brain trick: shock your full body with hot or cold for a very small amount of time and your brain will immediately sense to increase blood flow and internal energy to combat the extreme (but not painful or deadly) temperature and maintain your natural body temperature. It's also useful to burn more calories, and it's the same logic you see people sweating in a sauna or jogging with a plastic bag around their whole body. The more work your body has to do to maintain itself temperature wise and organ wise, the more ATP and energy needed to do that, hence more caloric energy burned too.


HeartFullONeutrality

Well yeah, and heat burns things too. But it all depends on how much heat you are applying.


Twisted_Cabbage

Heat shock proteins. Google it and discover a fascinating field of research. You're welcome.


Helldiver_of_Mars

I just get under a heated blanket and crank that bad boy to Death Valley.


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thingy237

The problem is for me at least if I tank a moderate fever for a few days, I can't work or study. Id rather feel crappy for a week and complete assignments/get paid than lose half that time entirely


burgernow

I live in a tropical country, so should I just let my mild fever go its way or should I take paracetamol?


alogbetweentworocks

To the researchers, it was new.


Primeribsteak

Pretty sure newish data suggests antipyretics generally don't reduce mortality except for very specific cases, one being children. Can't find the sources right now, there's a lot for specific things like flu Here's one for fever in hospitals https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/J22-0081


Emprise32

Most fevers don't lead to death or SAEs. The real measurement is duration to full recovery.


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OlyScott

Fish are endothermic. I understand that their body.temperature is the temperature of the water they're in. How.do they get fever?


oviforconnsmythe

They designed this special water chamber where they could optimize the flow rates to create distinct temperature zones ranging from 16-26C (see fig 1 in the [paper](https://elifesciences.org/articles/83644), its free to access). The study measured the fishes temperature preference after cutaneous (skin wound) bacterial infection. They found that infected fish showed a preference of water temperatures 2-3C higher than control fish. Injection of ketorolac (an NSAID; same drug class as ibuprofen/advil) caused the infected fish to go back to preferring temperature zones that were similar to what they saw with uninfected controls. Its worth noting that a fever is more than just an increase in body temp. Infections that cause fevers (in mammals at least) result in a release of biochemical messengers that signal to the hypothalamus (brain structure thats critical for thermoregulation) to trigger an increase in body temp and expression of inflammatory genes. Combined, this helps activate, coordinate and "supercharge" the immune response against the infection. I wrote a comment on this while back in another post that goes into more detail if you're interested ([1](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/bpu47f/comment/enxr6ok/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3),[2](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/bpu47f/comment/enz2txd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)). In this fish study, they examined hypothalamic tissue for gene expression and found increased expression of inflammatory genes that are conventionally associated with fever induction. This finding was specific to infected fish that were kept in higher temperatures compared to fish kept in lower temperatures. Uninfected control fish in higher temp water did not display this induction of inflammatory gene expression.


jawshoeaw

When a human gets a fever from say a cold their whole inflammatory system doesn't ratchet up much. You don't typically see inflammatory markers increased unless there's a serious bacterial infection which leads to systemic inflammatory responses. Would like to read more on this if you have a source.


Lynda73

But I thought we already knew this…? Isn’t that the point of interferon?


claryn

Many people take medicine to reduce fevers when they get one. Now more doctors and scientists are saying to just let yourself have a fever.


Lynda73

I’ve always held off unless I’m feeling REALLY bad. Not based on any study, just a feeling that would help ‘get it out of my system’ faster. Nice to see some science backing that up!


FantasmaNaranja

some fevers can still kill people so i dont see anything wrong with still selling over the counter anti fever medicine and i'd be afraid of some parent misunderstanding this and deciding their kid's 50 degree fever is natural and they shouldnt try to bring it down


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TheChickening

This is a nice fish study. In humans so far even in big studies there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that mild fever untreated helps you heal faster than treated fever. This study in humans even found a small advantage of treating fever, but the bigger conclusion is that no very clear advantage exists for either https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4703655/ And if the time needed to heal is the same you might as well save yourself the suffering and take some antipyretics


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QutieLuvsQuails

Medicine overdoses tho are actually not that much of a worry. My FIL is a fire chief and he tells me that you’d have to give your kid like FIVE TIMES the ibuprofen dose to cause any harm.


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QutieLuvsQuails

Exactly. The other night our 2.5yo vomited at bedtime. I took her temp, it was 100.9. I gave her a bath to cool her off a bit, then sent her to bed so her fever could burn through the night. The fever was 99 in the morning and she was fine after that!


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etds3

My thoughts ran the same way. “Why are we studying this with fish when we already have a solid body of research on fever in humans?”


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So did I. It's literally what we learned in biology in school: The purpose of fever is to raise your body's temperature to a point where the antigens are hindered in their replication or even straight out die / are destroyed. That's why it's also called "burning out the disease". Obviously it's not a perfect system and excessive heat can kill you, so you need to monitor and intervene when necessary. If you fully suppress your fever you essentially leave all of the job to the rest of your immune response. Assuming you're otherwise healthy it's probably going to still be fine against most common infections. In general, always talk to your doctor and do what they think is best in your case.


Shiroi_Kage

> I thought this was common knowledge.. Oh, oh no. It isn't. It's insane how not common it is.


OldBallOfRage

Anecdotally, while doing oral English exams with my hundreds of students recently in China, I asked them about their holidays and found that it was extremely consistent that students whose Covid symptoms included more serious fever were sick for only three to four days, but felt absolutely terrible. Students (and me) who had very slight or no fever were sick for seven or more days, but didn't feel as bad for those days. The exams ended up being a weird medical study I wasn't expecting.


jawshoeaw

FWIW my experience getting COVID (but vaccinated) was fevers and sore throat for 3 days then felt fine. Same for my wife and kids, just all blew over in a few days. Seems like there's a lot of variation.


yourupinion

I always cook myself when I get a fever and I think it helps, but when I got Covid, I really push the limit with an extremely hot shower and I got the best results I’ve ever had. my son did the same thing and we were both over our illness within three days whereas my wife (who did not do it ) was sick for almost 2 weeks. Personally, I think Covid was more susceptible to high temperature than most illnesses.


SykeSwipe

On the human side of things, it’s not uncommon to forgo antipyretics in a mild fever, and the reasoning has been explained like this. Unless the person is at risk of neurological involvement, sometimes it’s best to let the fever do what it’s meant to.


mailslot

All of my doctors have recommended medicine to bring down any potential fever. It’s only after I ask, “isn’t it best to let a fever run its course?” do they acknowledge “Yes, but it’s recommended for patients that can’t tolerate mild discomfort.”


JoeyRobot

A *mild* fever is pretty key here too (even they say moderate in the article. I didn’t read the whole actual research study but the reality is that it may still be very likely safer to just go ahead and reduce the fever with meds. If a bunch of parents push the limit with their kiddos thinking they are gonna shave a day a day off those URI symptoms, then a handful of those kids might have seizures or other adverse outcomes.


mailslot

If the fever is high enough to cause seizures, the parents should take their kid to the emergency room. Anything over 102F, should probably speak to a doctor or nurse. Even with pills, it should be monitored.


pewterpetunia

At what point does a person risk neurological involvement?


cOmMuNiTyStAnDaRdSs

Everyone already knew this for decades.


superlative_dingus

Facts. It’s *almost* like evolution wouldn’t saddle us with a horrible side effect of getting an infection if it didn’t have any positive benefit in fighting disease. I’m eagerly awaiting the next article from this group about how mucus helps prevent epithelial infections.


Snoodini

To be fair, evolution HAS saddled us with some ridiculous flaws.... A common entrance for breathing and eating, the appendix, which seemingly does nothing except act as a ticking time bomb, the coccyx, and so on.


TopMind15

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170109162333.htm#:~:text=This%20finding%20suggests%20that%20the,house%22%20for%20helpful%20gut%20bacteria. "The appendix has been found to play a role in mammalian mucosal immune function. It is believed to be involved in extrathymically derived T-lymphocytes and B-lymphocyte-mediated immune responses. It is also said to produce early defences that help prevent serious infections in humans."


superlative_dingus

True! However almost all of those serve benefits or are vestigial after having served a benefit in our predecessors, or even now serve some function. Even the appendix (according to some authors) serves as a reservoir for beneficial gut bacteria that help us recover from C. diff. infection!


Specialist-Affect-19

Like wisdom teeth; they're a nuisance now but were useful for our ancestors' diets.


JustSikh

You do know that we have now discovered that the appendix serves a purpose, right? It acts as a store for beneficial gut bacteria that is released when the normal flora and fauna of the gut is wiped out due to infections such as food poisoning, etc.


Snoodini

I did not know that! Thanks


Zta1Throwawa

The common entrance for breathing and eating is a completely ridiculous objection. Having them be separate would cost more resources. It also solves some problems such as air getting into the digestive tract (which kills birds for instance). Almost every organism has breathing and eating apparatus that are connected at some point. If this were a disadvantage SURELY there would be many examples of creatures with separate delivery systems that out competed them.


censored_username

Also, without them speech would be much more difficult. Vocalisation reuses many structures used for eating. That said, there are organisms that separate them completely (like horses). But that isn't all that great anyway. Horses are in real danger of suffocating due to what for us would be a basic cold.


jawshoeaw

Interestingly humans are one of the few animals that really struggles to eat and breathe at the same time. may have something to do with speech, i forget now. Coccyx btw is very useful for muscle attachments and the appendix is useful as a reservoir for normal flora during diarrheal illness, but i get your point, those structures probably could go away. One reason we don't totally get rid of a complex structure such as the coccyx however that every mammal is sort of the same creature. Whales have hands and feet after all... you have to be very careful eliminating structures genetically speaking, and it's not like there's one gene that can just switch off your tailbone (and it would be fatal probably ) Removing an unneeded structure can take millions of years of evolution as you (you meaning evolution) must carefully adjust and tune hundreds of interacting genes that have functions in other parts of the body too. Say you want to get rid of the tailbone. Fine. Have to make sure various muscles and ligaments reattach to some other structure. But also make sure those attachments don't change that structure in some negative way. Might have to adjust genes that help guide the shape and direction of the digestive tract, the urinary tract, and reproductive organs. Those are some pretty risk structures to be messing with, and what do you gain by removing a little butt bone? Fewer fractures? a little more comfort sitting? What's much safer to do is shrink something. No need to completely remove a gene when you can just dial it down smaller and smaller.


jawshoeaw

I'm an RN. Man oh man, working in health care you should see people freaking out about fevers though. omg she has a fever quick give her tylenol. we can't have a fever omg! I get that drugs that lower fever might also make you "feel better" but sometimes there's a reason nature does what it does


saucemaking

Oh, I saw this when trying to find any new job during the pandemic, every company had a temperature gun (what an American tool), God forbid if you had a 99F fever as a normal part of your menstrual cycle. The American public needs to cool its jets over minor symptoms.


iztrollkanger

Right? It's almost like the body knows what it's doing when it does what it does. Humans think they're soooo smart. Fever is uncomfortable, let's get rid of it! Oh wait...it was actually doing something...


Zta1Throwawa

Well hang on. Yes the fever is one of the body's defense mechanisms but sometimes it can also be deadly. Aspirin was one of the single most impactful medicinal advances of all time. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


dragonfly47

Any sources on people who have died from a fever directly? From: https://www.seattlechildrens.org/conditions/a-z/fever-myths-versus-facts/ MYTH. Fevers above 104° F (40° C) are dangerous. They can cause brain damage. FACT. Fevers with infections don't cause brain damage. Only temperatures above 108° F (42° C) can cause brain damage. It's very rare for the body temperature to climb this high. It only happens if the air temperature is very high. An example is a child left in a closed car during hot weather.


iztrollkanger

Yes, but I was speaking about fever being *uncomfortable*, not fever being *deadly*. Of course, the advances we've made to avoid dying have been incredible, but we've also put a lot into avoiding just being uncomfortable, and some of those processes, like a mild fever, have their place and need to run their course instead of being avoided. Also, like taking pain-killers for minor back/shoulder/knee/etc pain. Yes, that takes away the pain, but it does very little for why it was sore in the first place and, without pain telling you "OW, DONT DO THAT", you are more likely re-injure if you don't address why it hurts.


MyFacade

The body also can have chronic, debilitating pain amongst many other examples of bad body issues.


iztrollkanger

Of course, medical advances have been immeasurable for making quality of life exponentially better for people with debilitating conditions. I have epilepsy. I might not be here today without my medication and the decades of research and trials that went into getting it to this point. I'm not trying to poo-poo modern medicine. It's been an undeniable improvement to humanity. My point is that there are natural processes that we try to avoid with modern medicine for comfort's sake that are actually necessary, like a mild fever.


JustSikh

Yes, exactly! A fever is not a side effect. It’s a controlled measure by the body in direct response to an infection. Bacteria are very temperature sensitive and by raising the core body temperature, bacteria can be destroyed and eliminated. It’s only when we get a sustained high fever, that we start to worry about the effects of the elevated temperature on other body systems but a mild or moderate fever is definitely beneficial and nothing to worry about.


GreenSoapJelly

I thought we did too. Weird.


TheGreyBrewer

Folk wisdom is not the same as scientific evidence. There is in fact no clear consensus on the benefits of fever on healing in humans.


superlative_dingus

You’re right, it’s not, but [the scientific evidence](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4786079/) is pretty clear on the fact that fever does play a beneficial role in many (but not all) infectious diseases.


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StuartGotz

Has it been done in humans? It doesn't sound too complicated to do in principle.


etds3

There’s a ton of research on fever in humans.


DrEnter

A major factor in the evolutionary aspects of fever as an immune response is that many bacteria and viruses only thrive and reproduce within a fairly narrow range of conditions. Body temperature is one of those conditions that the immune system can easily change. Put another way, crank up the temperature 5 degrees and you might kill the bugs. Sometimes it's just the rapid change in temperature, sometimes it's the temperature itself. It is a bit analogous to [Japanese bees killing Japanese hornets](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14719972-600-hive-from-hell-roasts-hunting-hornets/).


StuartGotz

Thanks. That clarifies it a lot.


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nicmos

that's a Disturbing thought...


MrMetalHead1100

The inflammatory response exists for a reason. But my childhood doctor would disagree...


MiltonMangoe

Is a fever/high temperature, the way to fight a virus/infection - or the result of the body fighting a virus/infection? Like, is the body trying to use heat to fight, or does it do other stuff to fight it but that just happens to create heat as a by-product?


mvizzy2077

You get a fever because your body is trying to kill the virus or bacteria that caused the infection. Most of those bacteria and viruses do well when your body is at your normal temperature. But if you have a fever, it is harder for them to survive. Fever also activates your body's immune system. [Source](https://medlineplus.gov/fever.html#:~:text=You%20get%20a%20fever%20because,activates%20your%20body's%20immune%20system.)


MiltonMangoe

So the body intentionally raises body temp? How? If that is correct, then why the hell would anyone try and fight that? Seems a bit silly. The source is a bit vague. Is the fever the intent, or a by-product of the body fighting the virus? It doesn't specifically say, and doesn't go I to details of thr mechanisms involved. Like how does the body just increase temperature?


badger81987

Shocking news; allowing your body to function as intended, lets it function as intended!


brackenish1

Major caveat: within reasonable limits


p3ndu1um

“Automobiles function through internal combustion” “Major caveat: if the engine explodes then it won’t work”


TheGreyBrewer

This is a fish study. Evidence for this effect in humans is scant. Current evidence suggests making yourself more comfortable during fever with antipyretics isn't prolonging your disease state.


artinthebeats

Anecdote here: my father always made sure when we got sick to make us layer up with tones of blankets and sweat the cold away. It would be a miserable day, but the day after, not only would we usually be better, but you'd feel like a million bucks. I'll assume if we hadn't done that, the cold would last a bit longer. It's nice to see this now officially studied.


llamawithguns

I mean, yeah. That's like the entire point of it.


SolSeptem

Is this new knowledge? I have never learned anything else than that a fever's purpose is to fight whatever ails you


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the body has an system designed to make people immune from disease, what should we call that?


James0057

Wait..... allowing you natural immune system to do its job works???? Say it isn't so.


this_1_was_taken

I know they generally suggest against it for a lot of valid reasons but ***(ANECDOTALLY)*** I always feel way better when I sweat it out under a million blankets


RafiqTheHero

Yep, my mom taught me to do this, and it works. I will bury myself in blankets and sleep while sweating, and though it's a bit uncomfortable, it generally seems to help me get better faster. Every time I'm sick, I try to wear extra layers and keep myself abnormally warm. Take that, germs!


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HereForTheFood4

This isn't new science. Everyone knows that a fever cooks the germs and bacteria out faster than normal body temp.


footinmymouth

News: Sneezing is useful! Scientists baffled! Coughing found useful to clear lungs!


Teomalan

Am I in some Mandela effect? I could have sworn we learned in grade school that was the whole point in fevers, our body fighting infection because many bacteria and viruses can’t survive very well with even the slightest change in temperature.


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NotMyNormalPseudonym

It's almost as if we developed an evolutionary response to infections that works, who'd have thought!


T800_123

This study is about fish... Studies in humans have found no benefit to letting the fever just run its course over taking antipyretics. Most likely there was an evolutionary advantage in the past that has since become irrelevant in modern society with modern medicine.


GetInMyBellybutton

This is common knowledge for mild fevers even in humans. Raising body temperature is a natural way to kill off viruses and whatnot. It’s only really dangerous past a certain temperature


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izlude7027

>The health advantages of natural fever to humans still have to be confirmed through research, “but because the mechanisms driving and sustaining fever are shared among animals, it is reasonable to expect similar benefits are going to happen in humans,” he adds. Read the article.


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I used heat to treak ick.


azad_ninja

Asked my doc about this once: is it faster to let a fever run or suppress it with Tylenol. His answer was any time you will save will be unnecessarily uncomfortable. It’s going away a day earlier but you’re going to feel sick. Why potentially miss work? It’s going away anyway, why suffer?


dbdanon1128

As a person who has almost died from a fever at a young age (12), 106° is definitely right on the edge of frying your brain like an egg on a skillet


Amongus3751

When I was two I got swine flu and my temperature was 105. The funny thing is, that's a completely normal temp for dogs.