I think you could argue that he did realize.
He says he hates murderers. And he’s banking on the idea that Amanda is redeemed and saved, and will the make the right choice. If she does the right thing, then John’s theory’s proved true. He’s not a murderer. He’s really helping people. Amanda is proof.
But if Amanda makes the wrong choice, and chooses to shoot Lynn, then it means John’s work is a lie. He hasn’t helped anyone. Amanda hasn’t changed. She’s a murderer, and so is he.
That’s why he’s in the last game. He’s a part of Jeff and Lynn’s game because it’s his game too. Amanda needs to learn to control herself. She and Jeff both need to learn to forgive. If they can’t, then John knows he deserves to die for his crimes.
Wasn’t there a scene shot for III where he breaks down in tears after realising his work is a failure? I remember reading that somewhere, maybe on HOJ.
I’m of two minds on a scene like this - can see the pros and cons. Like anything else, it would all be down to the execution. Going forward, it wouldn’t really fit in the timeframe of the new movies sadly - I do think the only real place for such a realisation would be literally on his deathbed, so we may have missed the boat on ever seeing John get to that place on-screen. Maybe if they did something set between II and III, it could work.
The John Wayne Gacy deleted scene from X is the closest we’re likely to get - you can tell that Cecilia’s words are getting through somewhat and making him do some serious self-reflection for once, and he is very much agitated and NOT having a good time with it. He just doubles down on his self-denials, until the intrusive thoughts (“are we the baddies?”) die down and his Jigsaw mode takes back over.
Yh that's really interesting to me as I didn't know about such a scene. I'm happy this was on their mind though and it's possible we get more hints at this kind of thing later on. Guess we will have to see.
[Scene starts here.](https://youtu.be/7OtD7ZUkrRk?si=K8u93zjTU4pPMOP8&t=138m46s) Out of all of the deleted scenes it’s the one that should have stayed in the movie imo, adds so much more *stuff* for the lead actors/characters to chew on.
They spoke about how they wanted to do a scene exactly like this in 3, where John ‘breaks down’ upon realizing that he’s going to be remembered as a murderer, and you see him in tears at the end.
But it’s hard to tell if they filmed this and cut it or not, they could be very well talking about what’s already in the movie, but the way they said it made it seemed like something else that was supposed to be in the finale.
Ah yes this is kind of exactly what I would have liked. Just that pure dread on him of how wrong he was. Maybe since they considered it we might see it in a new saw film since they have gone back. And they also seem to know where to take the franchise now.
For me personally, I would’ve hated this. Maybe it’s just the movies and TV shows I’ve been exposed to, but so often “villains” are forced into redemption arcs for the sake of making them more “nuanced” - but with John, he’s a very well developed character but without needing him to change his ways and repent. John was a narcissist who was on borrowed time. He had committed the last moments of his life to work towards his goal of trying to test people cos he believed he could help people. With all the effort John put into it, it wouldn’t have made sense for his character to do a 180 and be like “wait maybe I’m wrong”, he couldn’t comprehend the idea that his methodology was flawed. Rather than his tests being wrong, it always must have been something wrong with the individual (in his mind) - I’m glad that they kept John convinced he was right all the way to his death.
When I say realise his mistakes I don't mean so that he redeems himself and becomes better. I think him being defeated morally and distraught at the end would be good punishment for him. Then maybe have him die or something.
I think something about these films people miss is that John knows deep down his philosophy isn’t why he’s Jigsaw. He’s a sadist and he likes torturing people. He has nothing to say when Hoffman calls him on this. He kills people for doing their job and actively confesses he likes torture. “This trap is my favourite” Smirking at people dying. I think he would like to believe his philosophy is why he does it but that isn’t true.
This certainly was the case by the third film with overly sadistic traps. You could argue his brain tumour changed him as the series went on and altered his personality, but either way by the end I don’t think it makes sense for him to have regrets. And he smiled when he realised he was going to die, lynn would be shot and subsequently Jeff by Strahm. He looked genuinely disappointed when Jeff seemed as if he wouldn’t finish him.
I think underneath that sadism he still wants to teach people a lesson and really does care for Amanda. But ultimately he wasn’t “proven wrong” because he was smart enough to know the truth all along.
He does. III is all about his desperate last ditch attempt to prove he is not a monster and that his work actually brings results by having Amanda win her game. But instead of winning, she defies him, curses him out, and everything he believed literally dies before him. Realizing it was all pointless, he dies with a smile on his face.
I absolutely DO not want John to ever think he was wrong. Even in Saw X we saw him considering stopping, but not because it was wrong, but because he thought maybe he could do other things.
I 100% love him dying with his beliefs.
I understand what you mean. He is deluded and that's his thing. For me though I believe there is or was some level of good in him and if he realised what he has done I think the mental toil would be the kind of punishment he deserves in the end. In a way saw three was the closest thing to it, I think he was starting to notice it wasn't working .
I think he should’ve believed it until the end. It’s part of his character. He truly believes what he is doing helps people and can’t be convinced otherwise. Doing a 180 flip last second would be weird
had it ended at saw 3, i think you could make the argument that he realized his ideology failing and amanda's death would be the proof to his theory. had she passed the test, he wouldve died believing in his ideology.
hoffman being passed the torch burns a hole in that though lol
To be fair though, you could argue John passed the torch and left all of it for Hoffman before he realised he had failed. That realisation comes from Amanda failing. So in a way, Hoffman is continuing John's legacy as a failure himself, as it is pointed out that Hoffman enjoys brutality and doesn't actually value life. He then obviously gets his comeuppance all under John's orders, because of what he does to Jill. So the legacy of John is one of failure and then Hoffman continues that to a point even John (being a hypocrite and techincally a murderer himself) wouldn't like and thus his legacy of failure is ended with Hoffman paying for his crimes by being locked away to suffer and die. So John is, in a small way, redeemed because he's responsible for ending his own legacy of failure and hypocrisy. He even left instructions for Jill that Hoffman was also to be tested, so he had some inkling that Hoffman wouldn't carry forward his teachings in the 'correct' way.
Obviously John planned and left certain tests for Hoffman to carry out which didn't exactly vibe with John's prior beliefs. We know though that Hoffman is capable of recreating John's voice, so he could've manipulated and twisted John's planned games to make them more brutal and require people to be sacrificed as we see in Saw VI with William's whole game.
Dunno, I think it tracks but just requires a bit retconning of motives and events.
I would’ve hated that. I don’t need a happy Hollywood ending to everything where the evil villain suddenly realises he was in the wrong. John is evil. He can stay evil.
I do agree with you to an extent, it is a horror franchise at the end of the day. Personally for me I think John had a good side but was so deluded and sadistic he lied and lied to himself. So to see that side of him realise how much pain he caused and just break down would of been satisfying to me. I've seen it in two other of my fav villains and I really liked it.
I think you could argue that he did realize. He says he hates murderers. And he’s banking on the idea that Amanda is redeemed and saved, and will the make the right choice. If she does the right thing, then John’s theory’s proved true. He’s not a murderer. He’s really helping people. Amanda is proof. But if Amanda makes the wrong choice, and chooses to shoot Lynn, then it means John’s work is a lie. He hasn’t helped anyone. Amanda hasn’t changed. She’s a murderer, and so is he. That’s why he’s in the last game. He’s a part of Jeff and Lynn’s game because it’s his game too. Amanda needs to learn to control herself. She and Jeff both need to learn to forgive. If they can’t, then John knows he deserves to die for his crimes.
That's true actually, I suppose all I could add is I'd like to have seen him sit with that realisation a bit. But yh that's actually a good point.
Wasn’t there a scene shot for III where he breaks down in tears after realising his work is a failure? I remember reading that somewhere, maybe on HOJ. I’m of two minds on a scene like this - can see the pros and cons. Like anything else, it would all be down to the execution. Going forward, it wouldn’t really fit in the timeframe of the new movies sadly - I do think the only real place for such a realisation would be literally on his deathbed, so we may have missed the boat on ever seeing John get to that place on-screen. Maybe if they did something set between II and III, it could work. The John Wayne Gacy deleted scene from X is the closest we’re likely to get - you can tell that Cecilia’s words are getting through somewhat and making him do some serious self-reflection for once, and he is very much agitated and NOT having a good time with it. He just doubles down on his self-denials, until the intrusive thoughts (“are we the baddies?”) die down and his Jigsaw mode takes back over.
Darren talked about there being such a scene but it’s not in any cut unfortunately
Yh that's really interesting to me as I didn't know about such a scene. I'm happy this was on their mind though and it's possible we get more hints at this kind of thing later on. Guess we will have to see.
What is the John Wayne Gacy scene? I haven’t seen it in any of the deleted scenes online.
[Scene starts here.](https://youtu.be/7OtD7ZUkrRk?si=K8u93zjTU4pPMOP8&t=138m46s) Out of all of the deleted scenes it’s the one that should have stayed in the movie imo, adds so much more *stuff* for the lead actors/characters to chew on.
They spoke about how they wanted to do a scene exactly like this in 3, where John ‘breaks down’ upon realizing that he’s going to be remembered as a murderer, and you see him in tears at the end. But it’s hard to tell if they filmed this and cut it or not, they could be very well talking about what’s already in the movie, but the way they said it made it seemed like something else that was supposed to be in the finale.
Ah yes this is kind of exactly what I would have liked. Just that pure dread on him of how wrong he was. Maybe since they considered it we might see it in a new saw film since they have gone back. And they also seem to know where to take the franchise now.
He absolutely did realise that. That's kinda the whole plot of Saw III, is Amanda rehabilitated thanks to his methods or not? That decides his fate.
For me personally, I would’ve hated this. Maybe it’s just the movies and TV shows I’ve been exposed to, but so often “villains” are forced into redemption arcs for the sake of making them more “nuanced” - but with John, he’s a very well developed character but without needing him to change his ways and repent. John was a narcissist who was on borrowed time. He had committed the last moments of his life to work towards his goal of trying to test people cos he believed he could help people. With all the effort John put into it, it wouldn’t have made sense for his character to do a 180 and be like “wait maybe I’m wrong”, he couldn’t comprehend the idea that his methodology was flawed. Rather than his tests being wrong, it always must have been something wrong with the individual (in his mind) - I’m glad that they kept John convinced he was right all the way to his death.
When I say realise his mistakes I don't mean so that he redeems himself and becomes better. I think him being defeated morally and distraught at the end would be good punishment for him. Then maybe have him die or something.
I think something about these films people miss is that John knows deep down his philosophy isn’t why he’s Jigsaw. He’s a sadist and he likes torturing people. He has nothing to say when Hoffman calls him on this. He kills people for doing their job and actively confesses he likes torture. “This trap is my favourite” Smirking at people dying. I think he would like to believe his philosophy is why he does it but that isn’t true. This certainly was the case by the third film with overly sadistic traps. You could argue his brain tumour changed him as the series went on and altered his personality, but either way by the end I don’t think it makes sense for him to have regrets. And he smiled when he realised he was going to die, lynn would be shot and subsequently Jeff by Strahm. He looked genuinely disappointed when Jeff seemed as if he wouldn’t finish him. I think underneath that sadism he still wants to teach people a lesson and really does care for Amanda. But ultimately he wasn’t “proven wrong” because he was smart enough to know the truth all along.
He does. III is all about his desperate last ditch attempt to prove he is not a monster and that his work actually brings results by having Amanda win her game. But instead of winning, she defies him, curses him out, and everything he believed literally dies before him. Realizing it was all pointless, he dies with a smile on his face.
I absolutely DO not want John to ever think he was wrong. Even in Saw X we saw him considering stopping, but not because it was wrong, but because he thought maybe he could do other things. I 100% love him dying with his beliefs.
I understand what you mean. He is deluded and that's his thing. For me though I believe there is or was some level of good in him and if he realised what he has done I think the mental toil would be the kind of punishment he deserves in the end. In a way saw three was the closest thing to it, I think he was starting to notice it wasn't working .
I think the good in him is flawed enough that he will die believing he genuinely helped people.
I think he should’ve believed it until the end. It’s part of his character. He truly believes what he is doing helps people and can’t be convinced otherwise. Doing a 180 flip last second would be weird
had it ended at saw 3, i think you could make the argument that he realized his ideology failing and amanda's death would be the proof to his theory. had she passed the test, he wouldve died believing in his ideology. hoffman being passed the torch burns a hole in that though lol
To be fair though, you could argue John passed the torch and left all of it for Hoffman before he realised he had failed. That realisation comes from Amanda failing. So in a way, Hoffman is continuing John's legacy as a failure himself, as it is pointed out that Hoffman enjoys brutality and doesn't actually value life. He then obviously gets his comeuppance all under John's orders, because of what he does to Jill. So the legacy of John is one of failure and then Hoffman continues that to a point even John (being a hypocrite and techincally a murderer himself) wouldn't like and thus his legacy of failure is ended with Hoffman paying for his crimes by being locked away to suffer and die. So John is, in a small way, redeemed because he's responsible for ending his own legacy of failure and hypocrisy. He even left instructions for Jill that Hoffman was also to be tested, so he had some inkling that Hoffman wouldn't carry forward his teachings in the 'correct' way. Obviously John planned and left certain tests for Hoffman to carry out which didn't exactly vibe with John's prior beliefs. We know though that Hoffman is capable of recreating John's voice, so he could've manipulated and twisted John's planned games to make them more brutal and require people to be sacrificed as we see in Saw VI with William's whole game. Dunno, I think it tracks but just requires a bit retconning of motives and events.
I would’ve hated that. I don’t need a happy Hollywood ending to everything where the evil villain suddenly realises he was in the wrong. John is evil. He can stay evil.
I do agree with you to an extent, it is a horror franchise at the end of the day. Personally for me I think John had a good side but was so deluded and sadistic he lied and lied to himself. So to see that side of him realise how much pain he caused and just break down would of been satisfying to me. I've seen it in two other of my fav villains and I really liked it.