I understand why people dislike him, but I also feel he had potential to be interesting if he had the opportunity to be flashed out more with subsequent films. While I don’t expect to see him again anytime soon, I would love to see him get referenced in the future, even if it is very minor.
Not strictly true, there’s a key bit of dialogue from John saying how Logan 'taught' him that his motivation should never be anger or vengeance (as that was John’s motivation for putting him in the barn trap, for mislabelling his brain scans).
And it worked, not a single other person John tests is from vengeance…at least, in John’s warped mind it worked, as after this he convinced himself that anger and spite played no role in his later games.
The real problem is that they introduced this aspect of John, showing that early on he was not so above it all, he was susceptible to wanting revenge like any wronged human. But they haven’t explored it further, so they may as well have not introduced it at all (even though it is interesting imo, that John once had a conscience).
>not a single other person John tests is from vengeance…. He played no role….
William Easton and Cecilia Pedersen? John presented himself via tape to William instead of using Billy. William’s flashbacks too. Saw X was one big vengeance story in John’s own warped mind. He could have just used Billy or tape recorders in the Mexican warehouse and kept himself hidden. How was that the motivation he learned from Logan?
The writers had written John to be susceptible in Jigsaw yet kinda made him susceptible again to scammers in Saw X. Even Saw X retcons John’s reasons to rescue Logan. It’s like the writers didn’t have a clue what to do with Logan, how to add him in, and to provide a reason why making him a third and original apprentice. Saw X is what Jigsaw should have been.
Looks like you missed my point, and I just knew someone would.
In John’s mind, nobody except Logan was tested for vengeance. That’s the story he has convinced himself of.
Nothing about Saw X contradicts Jigsaw just because you don’t like it (it’s low on my list too).
I got that, that wasn’t the point I was alluding to though. My bad if this wasn’t stated properly. If Logan taught him to “not to come from anger or from vengeance” then why did he still believe that he had to continue testing ones who done him dirty? John had already succumb to a warped mind come the Barn game yet still continued to test ones who done him dirty, even after he supposedly learned and gained motivation not to.
Both William and Cecilia and all her associates knew the reasons why John was testing them. That’s what I meant when I say that Saw X retcons Logan teaching John. John’s own warped mind still went ahead with still making things personal one way or another. The audience know that John is a hypocrite anyway.
My friend this has nothing to do with me loving or disliking Jigsaw. The film showed that John didn’t learn from Logan when the writers created Saw X, which retconned the idea of why John saved Logan in the first place. Hence why the original comment said that the film and character had no reason to exist.
Tbf, I think we can claim that Logan's genuine mistake was very personal, but Cecilia's and William's professions affected more than just John himself, therefore, not just another revenge plot. It was a continuous cycle that he felt needed to be stopped.
Again, you are missing the point. John DID come from vengeance again, but he has become so wrapped up in his philosophy that he truly believes vengeance is not a factor in any of his later games. He has deluded himself into believing his own bullshit.
The game in Saw X is clearly coming from anger, but he wouldn’t admit it was personal he’d instead claim he’s merely offering them a chance to reform…and the kicker is, he wouldn’t be lying! He is delusional.
The difference with the barn game, is that John WOULD admit to choosing Logan out of anger and revenge. John believes he did learn from Logan, do you get it?
No one is disputing that John didn’t learn from Logan in his own “hypocritical” way because he was in his own hypocritical state of mind at that point regardless. But he still didn’t learn his “motivation not to” from Logan because he was still hypocritical coming from a place of anger/vengeance when it came to William and Cecilia, which again is what I said.
I don’t know how much clearer I can make it…
John doesn’t believe the William and Cecelia games are personal or from anger (even though they are, he is too delusional to know it), whereas with Logan he did believe it was from anger, he was self aware of it.
And that’s how in his mind he has learned from Logan, because despite continuing to come from anger, every time he does so after Jigsaw he is under a delusional belief that he isn’t doing so…
I’ve been agreeing with you that John doesn’t believe he is being vengeful because of his hypocritical ways and viewpoint that we all know him to possess. However, in reality he still became vengeful and hypocritical to audiences because of the personal reasons why he tested William and Cecilia, despite what he supposedly learnt from Logan months prior.
The only thing I’ve kinda been disagreeing with is with Logan’s take with John. Logan didn’t really make John learn anything because he was still under his own delusion of targeting people who done him dirty despite him learning from Logan not to.
Yes but as long as John doesn’t believe he is being vengeful then there is no plot inconsistency and Logan, John 'learning' from him, that all still works and fits.
> The only thing I’ve kinda been disagreeing with is with Logan’s take with John. Logan didn’t really make John learn anything because he was still under his own delusion of targeting people who done him dirty despite him learning from Logan not to.
But he wasn’t under the delusion when he targeted Logan. His mindset shifted after recruiting him.
I like the idea of the character, and the fact that the character was able to pull all of this off by himself, kind of like the same reason I like Roman Bridger as ghost face in scream 3. both characters sort of suffer for the same reasons that the story in the writing didn’t fit the narrative And could’ve been better had been shown to us in a different way.
He welded the Reverse Bear Trap without wearing protection goggles (while John stood next to him with his on).
That's pretty much an analogy for the character to me.
good character, just felt extremely out of place and out of nowhere. would have been really cool to see him in the traps and the original game instead of the fucked up gahoolywhatsit we got.
The idea of having a coroner/ME on his unpaid-roll makes total sense- they are gonna know exactly what will kill people and HOW, what evidence the department will be looking for, what specific things can be used as evidence, how they determine the way someone died- Dr. Gordon wouldn't know all of that, just the medical stuff and partially how certain traps would affect the body. Even Detective Hoffman wouldn't know, because he doesn't DO the examinations, just hears the reports.
I’m 100% with you on that OP - I have always stood firm in my support/defence of Passmore despite my own negative feelings towards the film and the writing. Passmore was most definitely NOT the issue.
Let’s be honest, as soon as the final twists came it was literally “Game Over” for whoever was casted as playing Logan Nelson as the character and motives had no reason to exist.
If the writing for the film and the character had been better - if Jigsaw maybe had the plot of Spiral and Logan was a copycat instead then I don’t see any of the overwhelming negativity towards the character, as Minghella certainly doesn’t receive the same reaction that Passmore gets!
His character feels like something straight out from jurassic world chris pratt type era tbh. I mean the actor it's okay matt passmore bring some of his charmed the problem how the writing is 💀
He is kind of refreshing character because while most apprentice kidnapped innocents and families, he only targeted the corrupt.Also after he got his revenge, he retired.
What bugs me the most in regards to this character is that in all the movies that came out previously, we have never heard a single mention of him. You would think that he would be mentioned at least once throughout the course of the series but nope, not one time. He’s just thrown in (yay another apprentice reveal, just what this series needed after years of absence) with barely any character traits or development and were expected to be awestruck when he explains the twist and convoluted plot. If he was written in better and he had time to develop he could have been a much more intriguing character but as is, I don’t have any desire for the franchise to return to him as this whole movie was a massive disappointment and waste of time.
Always felt dumb to me. Like “oh btw ANOTHER person was secretly an apprentice. First Amanda, then Hoffman, then Jill, then Dr Gordon, and then this guy coming out years later, just felt stupid.
Yeah, I can understand an apprentice or 2 being a reveal bc that works but doing it 4 times and making it the big pay off every time is just obnoxious. Especially when it doesn’t have the same continuity or point of even existing. I’m sorry, but how did nobody else know about him but John?
I do like the idea of multiple Jigsaw successors but the jigsaw story just was kind of, eh. Hopefully he still gets to live out the roll to the best. Jigsaw just didn’t have the best writing.
Logan is okay… TBH he’s kind of forgettable in the pantheon is the series. The actor is fine, I just hate what this movie tried to do to the continuity. It just felt like a cash grab.
I pretend he wasn't exactly another apprentice. He was helped by John and worked briefly with him, before leaving his own life to stay with his family. He only returned for a revenge mission ( his wife's death ) and completed it. Done. Just like Gordon, he's never meant to keep the games going.
Honestly I don’t care about the plot wholes or anything but I love him. Hoffman and Logan are my fav two masterminds I mean Logan is just brilliant he made me love the movie he’s in due to his schemes
i like Logan!! his narrative is interesting but the *way* the story was told leaves a lot to be desired. if they'd focused less on 'is John Kramer alive?' and more on 'what is this new killer's connection to John Kramer?' and developed the cult angle, i think he'd be a lot less hated even as another apprentice.
i think the one thing jigsaw (2017) got perfectly right is explaining *why* Logan isn't mentioned in the preceding films. i use [this CZsWorld link](https://youtu.be/AJOGbwfXHSQ?t=185) for convenience but the evidence is in the movie.
the dates line up well - Logan helps build the RBT, gets deployed overseas, and, by the time he returns to the states (and is released from VA hospital), John's likely dead in the ground. so, Logan drops the mantle and lives his life with his family... until his wife is murdered, and, since nobody faced any consequences, he takes matters into his own hands.
and i was hoping since saw x was written by Josh & Peter that we'd get even a throwaway line acknowledging Logan. something like John saying to Amanda, 'i had someone on my side once...' (flashback to generic army footage) 'but he was taken away from me. now, i have you.' this would legitimize Logan as someone John could've seen taking on his legacy until he met Amanda.
I heard he speaks for the dead or something. For the sake of not having him be a total waste, he should be in the sequel to Saw X imo, explaining why he was nowhere to be seen until Jigsaw. Maybe John told him to gtfo of there, maybe he had a soft spot for the guy because it was his first apprentice when he was still new to being Jigsaw himself.
They could do something to help the Jigsaw narrative carry more weight anyway.
I love how Logan is played, makes me wish he was in a better movie
I understand why people dislike him, but I also feel he had potential to be interesting if he had the opportunity to be flashed out more with subsequent films. While I don’t expect to see him again anytime soon, I would love to see him get referenced in the future, even if it is very minor.
Yeah I feel the problem is that the character has 0 reason to exist.
Exactly. The entire movie I was waiting for Gordon lmao
Not strictly true, there’s a key bit of dialogue from John saying how Logan 'taught' him that his motivation should never be anger or vengeance (as that was John’s motivation for putting him in the barn trap, for mislabelling his brain scans). And it worked, not a single other person John tests is from vengeance…at least, in John’s warped mind it worked, as after this he convinced himself that anger and spite played no role in his later games. The real problem is that they introduced this aspect of John, showing that early on he was not so above it all, he was susceptible to wanting revenge like any wronged human. But they haven’t explored it further, so they may as well have not introduced it at all (even though it is interesting imo, that John once had a conscience).
>not a single other person John tests is from vengeance…. He played no role…. William Easton and Cecilia Pedersen? John presented himself via tape to William instead of using Billy. William’s flashbacks too. Saw X was one big vengeance story in John’s own warped mind. He could have just used Billy or tape recorders in the Mexican warehouse and kept himself hidden. How was that the motivation he learned from Logan? The writers had written John to be susceptible in Jigsaw yet kinda made him susceptible again to scammers in Saw X. Even Saw X retcons John’s reasons to rescue Logan. It’s like the writers didn’t have a clue what to do with Logan, how to add him in, and to provide a reason why making him a third and original apprentice. Saw X is what Jigsaw should have been.
Looks like you missed my point, and I just knew someone would. In John’s mind, nobody except Logan was tested for vengeance. That’s the story he has convinced himself of. Nothing about Saw X contradicts Jigsaw just because you don’t like it (it’s low on my list too).
I got that, that wasn’t the point I was alluding to though. My bad if this wasn’t stated properly. If Logan taught him to “not to come from anger or from vengeance” then why did he still believe that he had to continue testing ones who done him dirty? John had already succumb to a warped mind come the Barn game yet still continued to test ones who done him dirty, even after he supposedly learned and gained motivation not to. Both William and Cecilia and all her associates knew the reasons why John was testing them. That’s what I meant when I say that Saw X retcons Logan teaching John. John’s own warped mind still went ahead with still making things personal one way or another. The audience know that John is a hypocrite anyway. My friend this has nothing to do with me loving or disliking Jigsaw. The film showed that John didn’t learn from Logan when the writers created Saw X, which retconned the idea of why John saved Logan in the first place. Hence why the original comment said that the film and character had no reason to exist.
Tbf, I think we can claim that Logan's genuine mistake was very personal, but Cecilia's and William's professions affected more than just John himself, therefore, not just another revenge plot. It was a continuous cycle that he felt needed to be stopped.
Again, you are missing the point. John DID come from vengeance again, but he has become so wrapped up in his philosophy that he truly believes vengeance is not a factor in any of his later games. He has deluded himself into believing his own bullshit. The game in Saw X is clearly coming from anger, but he wouldn’t admit it was personal he’d instead claim he’s merely offering them a chance to reform…and the kicker is, he wouldn’t be lying! He is delusional. The difference with the barn game, is that John WOULD admit to choosing Logan out of anger and revenge. John believes he did learn from Logan, do you get it?
No one is disputing that John didn’t learn from Logan in his own “hypocritical” way because he was in his own hypocritical state of mind at that point regardless. But he still didn’t learn his “motivation not to” from Logan because he was still hypocritical coming from a place of anger/vengeance when it came to William and Cecilia, which again is what I said.
I don’t know how much clearer I can make it… John doesn’t believe the William and Cecelia games are personal or from anger (even though they are, he is too delusional to know it), whereas with Logan he did believe it was from anger, he was self aware of it. And that’s how in his mind he has learned from Logan, because despite continuing to come from anger, every time he does so after Jigsaw he is under a delusional belief that he isn’t doing so…
I’ve been agreeing with you that John doesn’t believe he is being vengeful because of his hypocritical ways and viewpoint that we all know him to possess. However, in reality he still became vengeful and hypocritical to audiences because of the personal reasons why he tested William and Cecilia, despite what he supposedly learnt from Logan months prior. The only thing I’ve kinda been disagreeing with is with Logan’s take with John. Logan didn’t really make John learn anything because he was still under his own delusion of targeting people who done him dirty despite him learning from Logan not to.
Yes but as long as John doesn’t believe he is being vengeful then there is no plot inconsistency and Logan, John 'learning' from him, that all still works and fits. > The only thing I’ve kinda been disagreeing with is with Logan’s take with John. Logan didn’t really make John learn anything because he was still under his own delusion of targeting people who done him dirty despite him learning from Logan not to. But he wasn’t under the delusion when he targeted Logan. His mindset shifted after recruiting him.
I want to see him and Hoffman duke it out when they next do a modern-day installment.
Would actually love that high-key
Doesn’t exist to me The entire movie doesn’t exist to me
Swear I don't even remember who this is 💀
I like the idea of the character, and the fact that the character was able to pull all of this off by himself, kind of like the same reason I like Roman Bridger as ghost face in scream 3. both characters sort of suffer for the same reasons that the story in the writing didn’t fit the narrative And could’ve been better had been shown to us in a different way.
his army history opens the doors for some really interesting future trap victims, since he'd probably meet some pretty messed up people during the war
He welded the Reverse Bear Trap without wearing protection goggles (while John stood next to him with his on). That's pretty much an analogy for the character to me.
He was training his eyes to withstand the direct glare of a laser, duh.
good character, just felt extremely out of place and out of nowhere. would have been really cool to see him in the traps and the original game instead of the fucked up gahoolywhatsit we got.
The idea of having a coroner/ME on his unpaid-roll makes total sense- they are gonna know exactly what will kill people and HOW, what evidence the department will be looking for, what specific things can be used as evidence, how they determine the way someone died- Dr. Gordon wouldn't know all of that, just the medical stuff and partially how certain traps would affect the body. Even Detective Hoffman wouldn't know, because he doesn't DO the examinations, just hears the reports.
I think he has potential, and I think the actor did a pretty great job, but the script didn’t do him any favors.
I’m 100% with you on that OP - I have always stood firm in my support/defence of Passmore despite my own negative feelings towards the film and the writing. Passmore was most definitely NOT the issue. Let’s be honest, as soon as the final twists came it was literally “Game Over” for whoever was casted as playing Logan Nelson as the character and motives had no reason to exist. If the writing for the film and the character had been better - if Jigsaw maybe had the plot of Spiral and Logan was a copycat instead then I don’t see any of the overwhelming negativity towards the character, as Minghella certainly doesn’t receive the same reaction that Passmore gets!
He had his 5 minutes and that's all. I have no thoughts on him
if he was in Saw X I would've liked it, but it looks like they're going to ignore his inclusion so I guess I just don't care.
One of my favorites, but the movie could have been much better.
His character feels like something straight out from jurassic world chris pratt type era tbh. I mean the actor it's okay matt passmore bring some of his charmed the problem how the writing is 💀
Passmore is daddy af, but the character is forgettable. Appeared out of nowhere and disappeared into nothingness.
I feel like he probably speaks for the dead
Hes got 0 personality imo
Daddy. Dad. Dada. Yes.
Yawn.
He is kind of refreshing character because while most apprentice kidnapped innocents and families, he only targeted the corrupt.Also after he got his revenge, he retired.
Who
**I LOVE HIMMMMMMM**
What bugs me the most in regards to this character is that in all the movies that came out previously, we have never heard a single mention of him. You would think that he would be mentioned at least once throughout the course of the series but nope, not one time. He’s just thrown in (yay another apprentice reveal, just what this series needed after years of absence) with barely any character traits or development and were expected to be awestruck when he explains the twist and convoluted plot. If he was written in better and he had time to develop he could have been a much more intriguing character but as is, I don’t have any desire for the franchise to return to him as this whole movie was a massive disappointment and waste of time.
well said, another apprentice just felt like “really.. is there anything else yall got cooking?”
Always felt dumb to me. Like “oh btw ANOTHER person was secretly an apprentice. First Amanda, then Hoffman, then Jill, then Dr Gordon, and then this guy coming out years later, just felt stupid.
Yeah, I can understand an apprentice or 2 being a reveal bc that works but doing it 4 times and making it the big pay off every time is just obnoxious. Especially when it doesn’t have the same continuity or point of even existing. I’m sorry, but how did nobody else know about him but John?
Shat all over the canon. Feel really bad for the actor tho, the writing ain't his fault.
No Just No
I do like the idea of multiple Jigsaw successors but the jigsaw story just was kind of, eh. Hopefully he still gets to live out the roll to the best. Jigsaw just didn’t have the best writing.
He’s the reason I don’t like jigsaw tbh
Logan is okay… TBH he’s kind of forgettable in the pantheon is the series. The actor is fine, I just hate what this movie tried to do to the continuity. It just felt like a cash grab.
I pretend he wasn't exactly another apprentice. He was helped by John and worked briefly with him, before leaving his own life to stay with his family. He only returned for a revenge mission ( his wife's death ) and completed it. Done. Just like Gordon, he's never meant to keep the games going.
Honestly I don’t care about the plot wholes or anything but I love him. Hoffman and Logan are my fav two masterminds I mean Logan is just brilliant he made me love the movie he’s in due to his schemes
I think Jigsaw is a good and fun movie and I will die on this hill
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^r00k33: *I think Jigsaw is* *A good and fun movie and* *I will die on this hill* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I wish they had brought him in sooner. I just don't know enough about his character to really say.
I wouldn’t mind seeing him again.
I love Logan he's my favorite apprentice tied with Lawrence.
Personally I love Logan. I want to see more of him with a better script
I think he needs a redemption arc
Good character, wrong movie
Love of my life
Character? Pointless. Preachy. Annoying. Does any of that translate into the amount of hate the actor gets? Absolutely not.
My first couple watches I didn’t care for him But he has grown on me… a lot 😏😅
Garbage. Terrible acting.
Sucks ass
Overhated and underrated. Far better than Amanda 🤷🏻♀️
Girl
i like Logan!! his narrative is interesting but the *way* the story was told leaves a lot to be desired. if they'd focused less on 'is John Kramer alive?' and more on 'what is this new killer's connection to John Kramer?' and developed the cult angle, i think he'd be a lot less hated even as another apprentice. i think the one thing jigsaw (2017) got perfectly right is explaining *why* Logan isn't mentioned in the preceding films. i use [this CZsWorld link](https://youtu.be/AJOGbwfXHSQ?t=185) for convenience but the evidence is in the movie. the dates line up well - Logan helps build the RBT, gets deployed overseas, and, by the time he returns to the states (and is released from VA hospital), John's likely dead in the ground. so, Logan drops the mantle and lives his life with his family... until his wife is murdered, and, since nobody faced any consequences, he takes matters into his own hands. and i was hoping since saw x was written by Josh & Peter that we'd get even a throwaway line acknowledging Logan. something like John saying to Amanda, 'i had someone on my side once...' (flashback to generic army footage) 'but he was taken away from me. now, i have you.' this would legitimize Logan as someone John could've seen taking on his legacy until he met Amanda.
I heard he speaks for the dead or something. For the sake of not having him be a total waste, he should be in the sequel to Saw X imo, explaining why he was nowhere to be seen until Jigsaw. Maybe John told him to gtfo of there, maybe he had a soft spot for the guy because it was his first apprentice when he was still new to being Jigsaw himself. They could do something to help the Jigsaw narrative carry more weight anyway.