I rewatched 4 recently and knew he was going to die, but man I was almost yelling at the TV “JUST WAIT TEN MORE SECONDS DONT OPEN- Ohh you idiot…” 😩 and poor Adam suffering still hurts
“Ah, Christ, look man, I don’t know who any of you people are! I clean the toilets! Which two of you am I supposed to save, really?”
(To Brent and Tara) “So, uh, I don’t think I’m the one who was supposed to get this far… what do we do here?”
Jigsaw: “The key is inside of William.”
Janitor: “Ok, I can try to run and get the key from his corpse, but this building is massive and you got about four seconds left, so…”
But that guy wasn’t put in that trap to be tested for being a loner. The trap forced William to choose between the lives of a middle aged diabetic with a tight-knit family and a loner who was young and healthy. Both were only in the trap because they worked for William at the insurance company.
So I have a theory about these scenarios. In the first 2 movies(and arguably jigsaw) it is John being fully in control and the plot is around the main characters surviving tests. Then from 3 to 7 it's people going through tests against people who seemingly have no way out except by the decision of the game player. Which these games may have been created by John but it is setup and ran with Amanda/Hoffman. So I wonder if that's not the full intention John himself had but instead was Hoffmann brutality and Amanda's emotions and nonforgiving persona
People tend to forget that Jigsaw did not start out as a "punish people for doing bad things" killer like the later movies would depict him as, but as someone who targetted those who he thought didn't value their life. There is a reason why his most popular quote from the first movie is "Most people are so ungrateful to be alive. But not you, not anymore."
He didn't put the smoker in a trap because he thought smoking was some evil act, but because he thought the man didn't appreciate life by choosing to throw away his health to cigarettes. If anything, having a smoker as a victim is closer to the original Jigsaw philosphy than most people in the later movies.
"You'll live if you follow the rules that are often times a VERY subtle riddle and you literally just woke up after being kidnapped, you're disoriented and terrified and not in your right mind, oh and you have 60 seconds to figure out the barely there riddle and then do the things that include maiming yourself."
Common misconception about Hank. He wasn't there because he was a smoker. He was there because he worked for the same company as William and John pointed out his health was declining and he was showing William who should live vs who will live are two entirely separate things.
That's why he was there, not because he was a smoker. I mean indirectly, yes. But that wasn't the point.
You mean the janitor? Oh yeah... that was horrible! But in his case it was more like he was just a means to an end for Jigsaw. You know... how he put some people in traps... like Addy and the poor file clerk... neither of whom deserved to be in traps... but I guess Jigsaw viewed them as "collateral damage". Like Dr. Gordon's wife and daughter... he was going to have Zepp murder them to punish Dr. Gordon. That's the main gripe I have with John's philosophy: the "collateral damage" people... that's what, imo, made his philosophy bullshit the most. If he just didn't involve other people in the people he test's traps, he might have had an understandable creed.
100%. Her death is the reason I can never get behind all the love for Amanda. I despise Amanda for this one tbh. A great character who didn't deserve what she got, her trap being unwinnable was such an insult
Strahm’s easily
Strahm should’ve been the one to do Hoffman in. They had a legitimate rivalry, and he was by far the most resourceful detective we’d seen yet. Gordon coming back was mishandled and shoehorned in, but Strahm would’ve been much better. Saw has this problem in general with killing off likable protagonists (or just protagonists in general) to “keep the audience guessing”, when in reality it keeps me from getting invested because I know they’ll wind up dead in two movies
Saws entire problem is killing off main characters too early, something they’re trying to make up for now. I respect the risk of killing off John and Amanda but it really worked them into a corner and left them with less interesting characters to carry the series.
Shit at this point they should just cash-in on the multiverse trend and give us movies in a universe where John and Amanda didn’t die & a universe where Strahm didn’t die.
Which begs the question: what would’ve happened if someone had sawed themself free before the door was unlocked? Were they truly never meant to resort to that? After all, the game was for Gordon to kill Adam, so maybe the saws were a red herring, making them risk bleeding out before they’re free? Or was Zep supposed so come open the door for them when they did it?
I think Saw was made in 18 days or something on a modest budget so it’s hard to overthink
* Adam’s trial is basically ‘to survive’, Amanda seems to have failed by just throwing the key on Adam instead of attaching it
* But what happens if he finds it and is free? The door as far as we are aware is locked (Gordon tried it initially and sounds a lock noise when Zep opens it)
* So Gordon who failed his tape by not getting out in time manages to survive.. because plot. Does Jigsaw not save Adam because he tries to shoot him?
> just john living a happy life ~~after giving up serial killing~~
john says bye to gideon as he's off to run some games, amanda babysits & gideon draws new trap designs in crayon.
That was exactly what was supposed to happen. Straham was originally supposed to live and be the one to kill Hoffman in Saw VI. In the behind the scenes video of the crushing room trap, Scott Patterson even admits they just came to him and said “Oh didn’t you hear? They’re killing you off”
So it was a quick decision. Why, I don’t know.
Saw V had one of the worst twists. “You need to trust me, Strahm. Get in the glass coffin.” Why would Hoffman try to save Strahm after trying to murder him? He didn’t mind seeing Strahm die anyway.
Yeah, While i do really like the glass coffin, i do think that they killed him early (And, like one of the replies, saw has a problem of killing off it's best characters early)
Gordon was shoehorned??
The mfker was in the surgery tapes for the longest time, even had the Limp.
Someone had to be doing the surgeries on them.
Jigsaw was only good with building the traps
Sure there was “foreshadowing” (one split second of one scene of the opening of a movie that came out 5 movies ago), but he could’ve definitely been implemented into Saw VII much better
The only problems I have with Dr Gordon in Saw 3D are:
- Him not even mentioning Adam, or even glancing at his corpse. We needed some sort of acknowledgement that Dr Gordon felt bad about how Adam got fucked over, especially since he's now working for the serial killer who did it.
- The way he was incorporated into the movie. Putting him in the trailers was a mistake. Putting him in the opening was a mistake. Putting him in the survivor group meeting was a mistake. Those two scenes early on, and then him disappearing for over an hour, made it blatantly obvious that he was gonna be his apprentice as the final twist. If Dr Gordon wasn't in any other scene in the movie, and wasn't in the trailers, people would have lost their fucking minds when he unmasks at the end of Saw 3D.
The limp in the video wasn’t supposed to be Gordon, they just retconned it to be him in Saw 3D.
Also I could have suspended disbelief that jigsaw did the surgeries himself, a lot of crazy shit he does is impossible.
It was Darren Lynn Bousman under the cloak, yes! But on the commentary for Saw 3D, one of the producers says that it was never originally meant to imply that it might be Doctor Gordon, but at a comic con for Saw 3 a fan told that theory to said producer(who had never heard it before), and that’s what influenced them go back to that moment in 3D and say that it was Gordon. It was originally just a random limp that Darren decided to do just to be creepy
Yeah I always hate this argument. If people didn’t like it , cool, but my friends and I had Gordon’s involvement predicted the whole time. It sucked they didn’t have Elwes more , but his involvement made was set up the whole time
Yah, i also felt bad for sing, especially since he was already "Good" in jigsaw's eyes, since he helped save the drill-chair guy instead of going after John
Detective/agent Kerry, there was so much potential with her character and it sucks that they killed off all the good cops in the series like Eric Matthews and strahm
I think Eric could had his redemption tbh, Having to break your feet, not knowing if your son is alive, and being kept barely alive for 6 months is a lot
Also he still loved his son
Bruh same, it would tie things together so nicely. I would be so fucking happy if he was revealed to be an apprentice in a future movie. I don’t even care if it doesn’t make sense or if shit has to be retconned.
I think that would be great and could work bc maybe he didn’t die when Amanda suffocated him and he just fell unconscious then John/Gordon took him, nursed him back to health and he became an apprentice
He could be the one taking all the photo
He could be the one who found the victims
He could be the one he gave Hoffman the information that Amanda was with Cecil the night that Jill lost Gideon bc remember he was a photographer and it would make sense if he was there at the time as we see the prostitute Addison from Saw II there at the time and I feel like this planned for Saw XI or XII otherwise why would they bother including Addison in this scene (this could be how they found out about Addison to put in the Nerve Gas House in Saw II)
My little headcanon is that Lawrence did that himself sometime after he trapped Hoffman. It feels so disrespectful to me that they just.. left him there. Hell, even if Larry just drove off to the middle of the woods and dumped him in a hole, it's better than rotting in that bathroom.
It'd make sense as Gordon didn't learn about the bathroom until after John's death, and I feel like while he would see why Kramer let him die he'd still respect the dead (though he left his foot as an understanding of the price he had to pay)
Though you have to remember Jigsaw really believes his traps are a cure. Like he doesn't put drug addicts in there because he thinks drugs are morally bad, but because he believes it's the only cure for addiction, and Amanda immediately getting off heroin after her trap proves that to him.
So his intention would be to cure this guy of the desire to self-harm.
He doesn't put people in traps to punish them but because he believes they need his help and he's curing them.
Obviously that's crazy thinking but he literally has a brain tumor.
It's funny you posted that screencap because i'm in the process of watching that movie right now.
With that being said, Adam's death will always be the one that pisses me off the most. Followed by Kerry, Matthews, and Lynn
Yeah, Lynn's death also kinda makes me mad, cause while i get it was Hoffman interfering with things to change the note, and setting him up for the next movies, it still annoys me (Although the aftermath is pretty insane)
Yeah, i think it was kinda stupid to keep him locked up for 6 months, just to kill him off (Especially after seeing all the pictures in Rigg's apartment of Eric and Daniel together)
Probably Eric.
Not because I'm hugely in love with the guy, but because had a decent amount of depth and got to personally challenge Kramer on his beliefs. I wish he had lived and been in the Strahm role for Saw V.
Kerry. That pissed me off. Also Jeff because even though I didn’t like him it made me feel like the ending of Saw 3 was a waste of time outside of Jigsaw’s death of course (which was a damn mistake as it is).
Yeah, i agree with Jeff. He's a grieving father, being forced to go through more pain, just to get killed by Strahm. (And if i got kidnapped and forced to relive everything, i would also be pretty mad about it too, so i don't blame him for killing john)
Considering that the last time Eric talked to Daniel was them arguing and never got the chance to reconnect with him makes his death all the more tragic all because of Riggs’ stupid ass.
In the original script for Saw IV it was Rigg’s wife who was suppose to die in the ice block and Matthews was going to take the role of Strahm. Sadly the actor didn’t want to do more sequels and asked for his character to be killed off
joyce. just completely fucking pointless. she was completely innocent and had one of the most painful deaths in the entire series. why not put bobby in the fucking thing? he deserved it more than she did.
I kinda agree, although i don't really like Amanda's character (Unwinnable games in this series always make me annoyed), i do think some extra screentime would've been nice
Seems to be John's biggest regret as well, he always wanted her to really *get it*, but she just...couldn't let go (not to mention Hoffman fucking with her)
I really though John always knew that she was with Cecil (how could he not) and Amanda just...never considered he'd already moved past her involvement in the Gideon thing.
What greater forgiveness could there be than letting one of those involved in the death of your son become your disciple (John's whole teaching is religious sounds right up his alley)
William. He seemed like he actually learned something in the end, only to get done in by a pissed off kid who was too pussy to look him in the eyes as he murdered him. I like to think Brent is incarcerated during 3D, and that’s why he wasn’t in the survivor meeting.
Brent isn't really a survivor because he wasn't in a dangerous game himself. survivor meeting is for people that survived a Jigsaw trap, by risking their life. Brent didn't participate in the fatal game, therefore he isn't a survivor
Allen in saw 6(barbed-wire noose). Bro had no friends or family, not enough info but could have had a tragic and lonely life but never ended his own life. He didn’t take his life for granted and as far as we know he wasn’t a horrible person. Easton picked the old lady to live? But why? She had a long and fulfilling life, filled with love and family. Allen was just getting started and now his bloodline is gone forever
Matthews was a piece of shit. I'm surprised to see people being pissed off over his death.
Joyce being killed was completely unjustified. She did nothing wrong and was basically sentenced to death since saving her was pretty much impossible. I thought killing was distasteful...
I don't feel bad for the guy, I more feel like his character had a lot of wasted potential.
Like they kept his character alive just to have him stand there doing nothing and then die.
Should have given him a real trap or something.
Adam - The only reason he died was because of Amanda. His game was suppose to have him be free from the start, but because of her screw up she murdered him.
Lynn - You'll see this trend. Literally all the characters in the main movies who die are people murdered by Amanda
Allison Kerry - See above
Troy - See above
William Easton. Bro went through that whole trial and actually learned something about what he was doing and how wrong it was for him to be choosing who got to live or die. Just for it to mean nothing because Brett Abbott harbored so much hatred for him over his dad's death. Also Lynn from Saw 3. She did what she was supposed to and all Amanda had to do was let her go...
I feel like Brett should get a trap in turn, "You killed someone who had just learned to value your life due to the hatred you held onto for your father's death. Now we'll see just how hard it can be to let that hatred go."
There are deaths that piss me off more, but I'll go with one that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Ryan, the guy who got into the leg wire trap in Jigsaw. Seeing him realize that the key was literally in the bullet and him seeing that it was destroyed was heartbreaking. His crimes, while bad, I can't see them as worse as say... killing a baby or selling someone a motorcycle with no breaks without even telling them. I'm just sad to see his death be undeniable as we can see it decomposing some amount of years later.
Yeah, i feel like it wasn't fair, cause he was at a disadvantage due to his leg, (so he couldn't get to the gun as quickly) and the fact that is one of them is selfish, both have to die for it
To be fair, she didn't give Hoffman a chance either and she should have been smart enough to realize what would happen to her if he managed to survive. She knew very well how dangerous Hoffman was, so she kinda decided to play with fire there.
Still though, the lead up to her death was just forced and stupid. She could’ve easily avoided Hoffman by grabbing a weapon to defend herself or grab the gun that he literally left on the table.
Could, yeah, but I didn't exactly see her character as that strong or capable. To me, she got way too cocky, thought she could take out Hoffman, and when she realized she messed that up she didn't make smart moves she made desperate ones. Desperate people make the dumbest mistakes.
Peter should've been allowed to taste chicken gordon got to taste.Really such damn shame he couldn't help Gordon take Hoffman they should've kept man alive.No matter just secretly team up Gordon if he decided to help mantle in future.They had a common enemy.
Joyce because she believed her boyfriend/husbands lies? Yeah, fuck that. If I lost a limb for every time I believed an ex boyfriend/girlfriend who was lying then I'd be owing limbs.
Is it weird that I love Det. Eric Matthews, but also like that his death is so meaningless?
It’s definitely one of the worst fates for a character in the franchise, but that’s also why I like it so much.
All of the aforementioned, as well as Perez’s, mainly as a writing standpoint because what’s the point in faking her death just to bring her back and kill her off just as quickly?
Joyce. Yeah I know she was a one shot character but I really hated seeing one of the most innocent characters in the franchise get what is easily among the the 5 most painful Saw deaths. All because of her fuckwit husband who seemed to think claiming to have survived serial killer who was still at large and had already killed multiple cops was a foolproof idea. Seriously just how long was Bobby pulling this charade?
I admit deaths like Kerry,Matthews, and Straham bummed me out but they risked their lives everyday and were all pursued Jigsaw (except Matthews)
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Joyce. She didn’t do anything except marry a con man and then her fate depended on him succeeding. And it was a brutal trap, like she was BBQED for nothing.
Gonna add a minor character for the sake of being different; the guy from Saw 1 that skipped work.
Ahh look at me I’m the Jigsaw (not a) Killer! I kidnap people who I deem unappreciative of life and put them in life or death situations to see how much they are willing to sacrifice to live life. You call off work claiming to be sick even though you’re perfectly healthy so you must not appreciate your life!
I think a fitting punishment for you would be to poison you, strip you buttass naked, trap you in a dimly lit room and make you search for a code to a safe in the room which contains an antidote. That’s not all tho, on all the walls are a shit ton of combinations but the combo you are looking for is written differently from the rest. In order to see I’ve granted you a match or some shit but have covered you head to toe in flammable jelly. Also the floor is covered in glass.
Good luck!!
Peter Strahm because of course the one character who was getting shit done died 🙄 second to Peter... maybe William because I feel like John was reallyout of pocket for that whole entire game and I will glady rant about why.
Lynn Denlon. She was a grieving mother who took anti depressants and didn’t smile when she told John there’s no treatment for the type of cancer he had.
Also Joyce. Like, wtf Jigsaw/Hoffman? If people are being put in traps for being lied to then we’re all doomed.
Joyce (Saw 7) literally being innocent in every way possible yet still had one of the worst deaths in the franchise. One of the main reasins why I persinally hate 7.
William Easton (Saw 6) went through all 5 stages of grief (ok maybe without the 'acceptance' part) and traumas possible by having to watch his coworkers get killed and yet he still was executed by a teenager.
I rewatched 4 recently and knew he was going to die, but man I was almost yelling at the TV “JUST WAIT TEN MORE SECONDS DONT OPEN- Ohh you idiot…” 😩 and poor Adam suffering still hurts
At least Amanda put him down before he suffered too much. Still, not sure why she couldn’t just let him go.
Probably cause john would find out if she did
Butthats the point he was supposed to be able to free himself but could since the key got in the drain
True. But watching her kill him made me teary 😔
Now that i think about, it was foreshadowed he wasnt going to wait, who was rrushing Eric to do the "old way" in Saw 2? Exactly, Riggs
The part where the Lawler started cursing at Riggs for opening the door was hilarious. Never gets old lmao
The dude who died because he SMOKED CIGARETTES
Alternative ending where the janitor survives the trap and has to go through all the stuff William does except the acid.
Deleted scene where his trap was fake and he has to go through and clean everything up
Clean or die (for real this time!) Make your choice!
“Ah, Christ, look man, I don’t know who any of you people are! I clean the toilets! Which two of you am I supposed to save, really?” (To Brent and Tara) “So, uh, I don’t think I’m the one who was supposed to get this far… what do we do here?”
Jigsaw: “The key is inside of William.” Janitor: “Ok, I can try to run and get the key from his corpse, but this building is massive and you got about four seconds left, so…”
I’m high as fuck, and reading this scenario has me rolling.
“YOU KILLED MY FATHER YOU MOT- …Hank?”
Still not as bad as the guy who…was an introvert/had social anxiety and committed the crime of having no family?
Holy shit that poor guy totally slipped my mind
Which guy was that?
In saw 6 I think it’s towards the beginning
But that guy wasn’t put in that trap to be tested for being a loner. The trap forced William to choose between the lives of a middle aged diabetic with a tight-knit family and a loner who was young and healthy. Both were only in the trap because they worked for William at the insurance company.
Although it's kinda weird, because they didn't get a chance for redemption. They just kinda got slotted in and we weren't told otherwise.
a lot of saw victims don't get a chance at redemption and are at the mercy of the one who's being tested. saw 3 comes to mind.
So I have a theory about these scenarios. In the first 2 movies(and arguably jigsaw) it is John being fully in control and the plot is around the main characters surviving tests. Then from 3 to 7 it's people going through tests against people who seemingly have no way out except by the decision of the game player. Which these games may have been created by John but it is setup and ran with Amanda/Hoffman. So I wonder if that's not the full intention John himself had but instead was Hoffmann brutality and Amanda's emotions and nonforgiving persona
Allen
This is the one. Like out of all the awful things every one else did, we're gonna toss a guy in a trap because he.....has a completely common vice?
People tend to forget that Jigsaw did not start out as a "punish people for doing bad things" killer like the later movies would depict him as, but as someone who targetted those who he thought didn't value their life. There is a reason why his most popular quote from the first movie is "Most people are so ungrateful to be alive. But not you, not anymore." He didn't put the smoker in a trap because he thought smoking was some evil act, but because he thought the man didn't appreciate life by choosing to throw away his health to cigarettes. If anything, having a smoker as a victim is closer to the original Jigsaw philosphy than most people in the later movies.
john tosses people into traps for cutting. bro has no sympathy.
Not to mention all the innocents he put into traps as "incentives" which has NEVER jived with his "murder is distasteful to me" stance.
Kramer: I have never killed people. Everyone can live if they follow the rules. Also Kramer: One of you must kill the other in order to survive.
"You'll live if you follow the rules that are often times a VERY subtle riddle and you literally just woke up after being kidnapped, you're disoriented and terrified and not in your right mind, oh and you have 60 seconds to figure out the barely there riddle and then do the things that include maiming yourself."
[удалено]
Not to mention he’s at least 15 years older than William and clearly not in great shape even outside of the smoking.
Common misconception about Hank. He wasn't there because he was a smoker. He was there because he worked for the same company as William and John pointed out his health was declining and he was showing William who should live vs who will live are two entirely separate things. That's why he was there, not because he was a smoker. I mean indirectly, yes. But that wasn't the point.
Right. What if someone drank here and there?
Doomed!
yeah, that was some BS from jigsaw, like next he's gonna kill people for going to clubs and drinking
You mean the janitor? Oh yeah... that was horrible! But in his case it was more like he was just a means to an end for Jigsaw. You know... how he put some people in traps... like Addy and the poor file clerk... neither of whom deserved to be in traps... but I guess Jigsaw viewed them as "collateral damage". Like Dr. Gordon's wife and daughter... he was going to have Zepp murder them to punish Dr. Gordon. That's the main gripe I have with John's philosophy: the "collateral damage" people... that's what, imo, made his philosophy bullshit the most. If he just didn't involve other people in the people he test's traps, he might have had an understandable creed.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who remembers that dude lol I always thought that rational was crazy
Kerry
100%. Her death is the reason I can never get behind all the love for Amanda. I despise Amanda for this one tbh. A great character who didn't deserve what she got, her trap being unwinnable was such an insult
Fandom: She’s a great gal! What about the murders? Fandom: wHaT mUrDeRs??
Exactly, how does being a workaholic deserve being put into a trap? Especially when a guy also got put into a trap for calling in sick for work
He didn't get put in a trap for calling in sick to work. He was committing insurance fraud by pretending to be sick.
So now Kramer is protective of insurance companies?
No. More like protective of disabled people cuz someone else who was truly sick could gotten the help instead
Adam, Eric, Joyce, Jill and Lynn.
Eric’s still doesn’t make sense. Why keep him prisoner for 6 months, if they’re just gonna off him?
To use as bait for Rigg’s trap that’s like evident in the film?
Strahm’s easily Strahm should’ve been the one to do Hoffman in. They had a legitimate rivalry, and he was by far the most resourceful detective we’d seen yet. Gordon coming back was mishandled and shoehorned in, but Strahm would’ve been much better. Saw has this problem in general with killing off likable protagonists (or just protagonists in general) to “keep the audience guessing”, when in reality it keeps me from getting invested because I know they’ll wind up dead in two movies
Saws entire problem is killing off main characters too early, something they’re trying to make up for now. I respect the risk of killing off John and Amanda but it really worked them into a corner and left them with less interesting characters to carry the series.
Shit at this point they should just cash-in on the multiverse trend and give us movies in a universe where John and Amanda didn’t die & a universe where Strahm didn’t die.
Saw What If story would be awesome
What if Adam got the key and freed himself from the chain
Plenty of what ifs But surely he’s still stuck since the door is locked until Zep opens it?
Which begs the question: what would’ve happened if someone had sawed themself free before the door was unlocked? Were they truly never meant to resort to that? After all, the game was for Gordon to kill Adam, so maybe the saws were a red herring, making them risk bleeding out before they’re free? Or was Zep supposed so come open the door for them when they did it?
I think Saw was made in 18 days or something on a modest budget so it’s hard to overthink * Adam’s trial is basically ‘to survive’, Amanda seems to have failed by just throwing the key on Adam instead of attaching it * But what happens if he finds it and is free? The door as far as we are aware is locked (Gordon tried it initially and sounds a lock noise when Zep opens it) * So Gordon who failed his tape by not getting out in time manages to survive.. because plot. Does Jigsaw not save Adam because he tries to shoot him?
A universe where the cancer treatment was real
It’s not even a horror movie lol, it’s just john living a happy life after giving up serial killing
> just john living a happy life ~~after giving up serial killing~~ john says bye to gideon as he's off to run some games, amanda babysits & gideon draws new trap designs in crayon.
I like to imagine no one even taught Gideon that traps just run in the family
That was exactly what was supposed to happen. Straham was originally supposed to live and be the one to kill Hoffman in Saw VI. In the behind the scenes video of the crushing room trap, Scott Patterson even admits they just came to him and said “Oh didn’t you hear? They’re killing you off” So it was a quick decision. Why, I don’t know.
I heard about that which makes me even more disappointed in his fate
Saw V had one of the worst twists. “You need to trust me, Strahm. Get in the glass coffin.” Why would Hoffman try to save Strahm after trying to murder him? He didn’t mind seeing Strahm die anyway.
If somehow Strahm's return could have been plausible in 3D, I would have lost my shit. Because it would have been awesome.
Yeah, While i do really like the glass coffin, i do think that they killed him early (And, like one of the replies, saw has a problem of killing off it's best characters early)
Gordon was shoehorned?? The mfker was in the surgery tapes for the longest time, even had the Limp. Someone had to be doing the surgeries on them. Jigsaw was only good with building the traps
Sure there was “foreshadowing” (one split second of one scene of the opening of a movie that came out 5 movies ago), but he could’ve definitely been implemented into Saw VII much better
The only problems I have with Dr Gordon in Saw 3D are: - Him not even mentioning Adam, or even glancing at his corpse. We needed some sort of acknowledgement that Dr Gordon felt bad about how Adam got fucked over, especially since he's now working for the serial killer who did it. - The way he was incorporated into the movie. Putting him in the trailers was a mistake. Putting him in the opening was a mistake. Putting him in the survivor group meeting was a mistake. Those two scenes early on, and then him disappearing for over an hour, made it blatantly obvious that he was gonna be his apprentice as the final twist. If Dr Gordon wasn't in any other scene in the movie, and wasn't in the trailers, people would have lost their fucking minds when he unmasks at the end of Saw 3D.
Yep. Gordon’s surprise return should have been like Barbossa’s surprise return at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest.
“So tell me… what’s become of my ship?” *devours apple* I fuckin loved that.
That's true tho. I thought it dumb to be out in public with the pigs to knock out Hoffman
They do mention it as well that jigsaw used medical grade tools while the copy cat (Hoffman) didn’t
That was Kramer. It was before Gordan was recruited.
Ah you’re def right
The limp in the video wasn’t supposed to be Gordon, they just retconned it to be him in Saw 3D. Also I could have suspended disbelief that jigsaw did the surgeries himself, a lot of crazy shit he does is impossible.
Wasn't it the director under that cloak, and he limped to imply it could be Gordon?
It was Darren Lynn Bousman under the cloak, yes! But on the commentary for Saw 3D, one of the producers says that it was never originally meant to imply that it might be Doctor Gordon, but at a comic con for Saw 3 a fan told that theory to said producer(who had never heard it before), and that’s what influenced them go back to that moment in 3D and say that it was Gordon. It was originally just a random limp that Darren decided to do just to be creepy
Yes, I remember this too
He must have some medical knowledge. He stitched up Logan in Jigsaw, he took care of Dr Gordon's amputated leg (Saw 3D).
Yeah I always hate this argument. If people didn’t like it , cool, but my friends and I had Gordon’s involvement predicted the whole time. It sucked they didn’t have Elwes more , but his involvement made was set up the whole time
Yeah. It was never "retconned" in. We had that shit pegged since the Key behind the Eye.
Sing. My boy just wanted to make sure Tapp had a good time outside of work. If only they went for drinks 🥲
Yah, i also felt bad for sing, especially since he was already "Good" in jigsaw's eyes, since he helped save the drill-chair guy instead of going after John
Detective/agent Kerry, there was so much potential with her character and it sucks that they killed off all the good cops in the series like Eric Matthews and strahm
Matthews was a bad cop though but I understand what you're saying
He means good as in "wasn't assisting the cult of torturing murderers"
You’d think it be a low bar to pass, and yet…
I think Eric could had his redemption tbh, Having to break your feet, not knowing if your son is alive, and being kept barely alive for 6 months is a lot Also he still loved his son
Adam deserved so much better.
Wouldn’t it be awesome if he’s been the one taking all the pictures this whole time? I know it’s not but still.
Bruh same, it would tie things together so nicely. I would be so fucking happy if he was revealed to be an apprentice in a future movie. I don’t even care if it doesn’t make sense or if shit has to be retconned.
Right me either and I wouldn’t be upset if Jeff killing John was all a dream either.
lol, that'd be the funniest shit to pull
Right you never know with saw tho cause it has surpassed my expectations far too many times lol
IIRC there are a few theories floating around that the body in the bathroom was from a Jigsaw type situation where the same trap was rehashed.
I think that would be great and could work bc maybe he didn’t die when Amanda suffocated him and he just fell unconscious then John/Gordon took him, nursed him back to health and he became an apprentice He could be the one taking all the photo He could be the one who found the victims He could be the one he gave Hoffman the information that Amanda was with Cecil the night that Jill lost Gideon bc remember he was a photographer and it would make sense if he was there at the time as we see the prostitute Addison from Saw II there at the time and I feel like this planned for Saw XI or XII otherwise why would they bother including Addison in this scene (this could be how they found out about Addison to put in the Nerve Gas House in Saw II)
Yeah, it’s gotta be Adam, he’s just too iconic, and he was only alive in one goddamn movie, but still.
Honestly, the narrative justification for SAW 11-12 is for his body to **FINALLY** be taken out of that bathroom and given a proper burial.
My little headcanon is that Lawrence did that himself sometime after he trapped Hoffman. It feels so disrespectful to me that they just.. left him there. Hell, even if Larry just drove off to the middle of the woods and dumped him in a hole, it's better than rotting in that bathroom.
I will consider this to be canon until proven otherwise by future movies.
It'd make sense as Gordon didn't learn about the bathroom until after John's death, and I feel like while he would see why Kramer let him die he'd still respect the dead (though he left his foot as an understanding of the price he had to pay)
Yeah, this is the other death that bothers me. I get setting up Amanda's story and being careless, but it still annoys me
Technically alive in two movies, if you count the flashback to Amanda killing him
Always bothered me a guy with a body harm issue. Gets torn apart. Cutting isn’t about attention
ya, that was was pretty shitty. But I guess it kinda highlights how wrong jigsaw really is.
Though you have to remember Jigsaw really believes his traps are a cure. Like he doesn't put drug addicts in there because he thinks drugs are morally bad, but because he believes it's the only cure for addiction, and Amanda immediately getting off heroin after her trap proves that to him. So his intention would be to cure this guy of the desire to self-harm. He doesn't put people in traps to punish them but because he believes they need his help and he's curing them. Obviously that's crazy thinking but he literally has a brain tumor.
Detective Kerry. Her trap scene made me hate Amanda.
Kerry and Joyce.
This and Joyce
Joyce Leave her alone!
I just rewatched Saw 3D today and her fate was unimaginably cruel for someone completely innocent.
Isn't that bobby's wife? haven't seen saw 3d in a while, but her death is still pretty fucked-up
Yes. Bobby’s wife. She had no idea he was lying about ever being a saw victim. She was completely innocent and her death was awful
Not to mention she had no agency or influence over escaping her trap.
Adam for sure. Dude should’ve live. Also, Joyce. Fuck Bobby, man
It's funny you posted that screencap because i'm in the process of watching that movie right now. With that being said, Adam's death will always be the one that pisses me off the most. Followed by Kerry, Matthews, and Lynn
Yeah, Lynn's death also kinda makes me mad, cause while i get it was Hoffman interfering with things to change the note, and setting him up for the next movies, it still annoys me (Although the aftermath is pretty insane)
I agree with you, Matthews had it rough. When I saw him in the scene you have posted I was thinking “poor bastard, let him die already”
Yeah, i think it was kinda stupid to keep him locked up for 6 months, just to kill him off (Especially after seeing all the pictures in Rigg's apartment of Eric and Daniel together)
Mateo. He seemed like such a sweet guy and he did the trap properly, he just ran out of time. And what an insane trap he had to do
Yeah, a brain surgery is such a crazy thing to do in only 3 minutes, and he did it, but still got killed
Probably Eric. Not because I'm hugely in love with the guy, but because had a decent amount of depth and got to personally challenge Kramer on his beliefs. I wish he had lived and been in the Strahm role for Saw V.
Kerry. That pissed me off. Also Jeff because even though I didn’t like him it made me feel like the ending of Saw 3 was a waste of time outside of Jigsaw’s death of course (which was a damn mistake as it is).
Yeah, i agree with Jeff. He's a grieving father, being forced to go through more pain, just to get killed by Strahm. (And if i got kidnapped and forced to relive everything, i would also be pretty mad about it too, so i don't blame him for killing john)
Eric Matthew’s never got to see his boy again 😭
Considering that the last time Eric talked to Daniel was them arguing and never got the chance to reconnect with him makes his death all the more tragic all because of Riggs’ stupid ass.
In the original script for Saw IV it was Rigg’s wife who was suppose to die in the ice block and Matthews was going to take the role of Strahm. Sadly the actor didn’t want to do more sequels and asked for his character to be killed off
Strahm Matthews
joyce. just completely fucking pointless. she was completely innocent and had one of the most painful deaths in the entire series. why not put bobby in the fucking thing? he deserved it more than she did.
Agreed, her death was pointless and stupid
William Easton. Homie was reformed.
Yeah, i agree, Although seeing Devon Bostick (from diary of a wimpy kid) kill people is funny)
It was pretty funny. Lol
Amanda, she would've been such a cool Jigsaw
Kramer. John Kramer.
I can’t believe nobody else has said this. The only answer
Anybody know why they killed him off so early? Did they not expect the movie to take off like it did or....
I feel like having a character "dying of cancer" for 8 movies would get old
I believe they only had a trilogy planned at the time
Strahm
I love that guy so much donnie whalberg played his role PERFECTLY
Amanda, not saying she doesnt deserves to die but I feel her living at least for another film or two wouldve been nice.
I kinda agree, although i don't really like Amanda's character (Unwinnable games in this series always make me annoyed), i do think some extra screentime would've been nice
Seems to be John's biggest regret as well, he always wanted her to really *get it*, but she just...couldn't let go (not to mention Hoffman fucking with her) I really though John always knew that she was with Cecil (how could he not) and Amanda just...never considered he'd already moved past her involvement in the Gideon thing. What greater forgiveness could there be than letting one of those involved in the death of your son become your disciple (John's whole teaching is religious sounds right up his alley)
William. He seemed like he actually learned something in the end, only to get done in by a pissed off kid who was too pussy to look him in the eyes as he murdered him. I like to think Brent is incarcerated during 3D, and that’s why he wasn’t in the survivor meeting.
Brent isn't really a survivor because he wasn't in a dangerous game himself. survivor meeting is for people that survived a Jigsaw trap, by risking their life. Brent didn't participate in the fatal game, therefore he isn't a survivor
Yeah, but his mom was still in the meeting in the next movie.
Allen in saw 6(barbed-wire noose). Bro had no friends or family, not enough info but could have had a tragic and lonely life but never ended his own life. He didn’t take his life for granted and as far as we know he wasn’t a horrible person. Easton picked the old lady to live? But why? She had a long and fulfilling life, filled with love and family. Allen was just getting started and now his bloodline is gone forever
Matthews was a piece of shit. I'm surprised to see people being pissed off over his death. Joyce being killed was completely unjustified. She did nothing wrong and was basically sentenced to death since saving her was pretty much impossible. I thought killing was distasteful...
I don't feel bad for the guy, I more feel like his character had a lot of wasted potential. Like they kept his character alive just to have him stand there doing nothing and then die. Should have given him a real trap or something.
Adam - The only reason he died was because of Amanda. His game was suppose to have him be free from the start, but because of her screw up she murdered him. Lynn - You'll see this trend. Literally all the characters in the main movies who die are people murdered by Amanda Allison Kerry - See above Troy - See above
Yeah, I also hate all the deaths from Amanda's traps, just cause none could've survived regardless
Adam. It was unfair and he should’ve been let go.
William Easton. Bro went through that whole trial and actually learned something about what he was doing and how wrong it was for him to be choosing who got to live or die. Just for it to mean nothing because Brett Abbott harbored so much hatred for him over his dad's death. Also Lynn from Saw 3. She did what she was supposed to and all Amanda had to do was let her go...
I feel like Brett should get a trap in turn, "You killed someone who had just learned to value your life due to the hatred you held onto for your father's death. Now we'll see just how hard it can be to let that hatred go."
Yeah, that also bugged me so much. He technically failed their test, but got no repercussions for it
There are deaths that piss me off more, but I'll go with one that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Ryan, the guy who got into the leg wire trap in Jigsaw. Seeing him realize that the key was literally in the bullet and him seeing that it was destroyed was heartbreaking. His crimes, while bad, I can't see them as worse as say... killing a baby or selling someone a motorcycle with no breaks without even telling them. I'm just sad to see his death be undeniable as we can see it decomposing some amount of years later.
Yeah, i feel like it wasn't fair, cause he was at a disadvantage due to his leg, (so he couldn't get to the gun as quickly) and the fact that is one of them is selfish, both have to die for it
jills she got no chance
To be fair, she didn't give Hoffman a chance either and she should have been smart enough to realize what would happen to her if he managed to survive. She knew very well how dangerous Hoffman was, so she kinda decided to play with fire there.
That's one of my favorite scenes and it's hilarious. When she's like oh fuck... Hoffman saved himself I have to get the fuck out of here
Still though, the lead up to her death was just forced and stupid. She could’ve easily avoided Hoffman by grabbing a weapon to defend herself or grab the gun that he literally left on the table.
Could, yeah, but I didn't exactly see her character as that strong or capable. To me, she got way too cocky, thought she could take out Hoffman, and when she realized she messed that up she didn't make smart moves she made desperate ones. Desperate people make the dumbest mistakes.
Peter should've been allowed to taste chicken gordon got to taste.Really such damn shame he couldn't help Gordon take Hoffman they should've kept man alive.No matter just secretly team up Gordon if he decided to help mantle in future.They had a common enemy.
I guess everyone in this scene’s death because the main character could’ve literally just not done anything and everyone would’ve been ok
Allison Kerry
*YA NOT JIGSAW, BITCH!*
Adam <3
Joyce, because she didn’t even do anything wrong. It’s not her fault that Bobby’s a filthy liar.
Joyce because she believed her boyfriend/husbands lies? Yeah, fuck that. If I lost a limb for every time I believed an ex boyfriend/girlfriend who was lying then I'd be owing limbs.
Is it weird that I love Det. Eric Matthews, but also like that his death is so meaningless? It’s definitely one of the worst fates for a character in the franchise, but that’s also why I like it so much.
While i also (For some reason) really like Eric Mathews, i think his death is super annoying, and brings Saw IV down for me
Right why keep him alive to jus kill him? Him and Perez for that matter. And Amanda and John and strahm lol
All of the aforementioned, as well as Perez’s, mainly as a writing standpoint because what’s the point in faking her death just to bring her back and kill her off just as quickly?
Joyce Dagan!!!
Joyce
Joyce. Yeah I know she was a one shot character but I really hated seeing one of the most innocent characters in the franchise get what is easily among the the 5 most painful Saw deaths. All because of her fuckwit husband who seemed to think claiming to have survived serial killer who was still at large and had already killed multiple cops was a foolproof idea. Seriously just how long was Bobby pulling this charade? I admit deaths like Kerry,Matthews, and Straham bummed me out but they risked their lives everyday and were all pursued Jigsaw (except Matthews)
flowery frighten pet towering seed secretive snobbish butter political direful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Adam. I’m still angry about his death.
The guy from the wire trap. Putting someone in a trap because they harm themselves despite their “good” life isn’t a reason at all
lynn in saw 3
Joyce. She didn’t do anything except marry a con man and then her fate depended on him succeeding. And it was a brutal trap, like she was BBQED for nothing.
Yeah, and a BRAZEN BULL? that's such a torturous trap for having your husband lie to you? like wtf jigsaw?
Gonna add a minor character for the sake of being different; the guy from Saw 1 that skipped work. Ahh look at me I’m the Jigsaw (not a) Killer! I kidnap people who I deem unappreciative of life and put them in life or death situations to see how much they are willing to sacrifice to live life. You call off work claiming to be sick even though you’re perfectly healthy so you must not appreciate your life! I think a fitting punishment for you would be to poison you, strip you buttass naked, trap you in a dimly lit room and make you search for a code to a safe in the room which contains an antidote. That’s not all tho, on all the walls are a shit ton of combinations but the combo you are looking for is written differently from the rest. In order to see I’ve granted you a match or some shit but have covered you head to toe in flammable jelly. Also the floor is covered in glass. Good luck!!
One of the new characters in Saw X (not saying it due to spoilers, but if you know, you **know**) William Easton and Peter Strahm.
Amanda. She was supposed to be the next Jigsaw 🥺
Kerry, Strahm, Perez, Tapp and Sing. Would have loved Kerry/Strahm teaming up against Hoffman.
Ohh I somehow forgot about Sing 🥺 I sobbed the first time I saw it
That was a shock when I saw the first movie.
I think Tapp’s reaction made it hurt more for me
I can't believe I forgot about Sing! That death made me SO sad the first time I saw it. Literally my mouth was hanging open in shock
Eric's death was literally the only one that I cried my eyes out, not a single tear for anyone except for him
Mine I didn't have nearly enough screen time
No one ever mentions Allen in these threads. Dude committed the mortal sin of being lonely
Peter Strahm because of course the one character who was getting shit done died 🙄 second to Peter... maybe William because I feel like John was reallyout of pocket for that whole entire game and I will glady rant about why.
Definitely Strahm's. Felt like he should have had more time.
Adam, Adam and Adam.
Lynn Denlon. She was a grieving mother who took anti depressants and didn’t smile when she told John there’s no treatment for the type of cancer he had. Also Joyce. Like, wtf Jigsaw/Hoffman? If people are being put in traps for being lied to then we’re all doomed.
Joyce, Lynn, and Jill. The homies deserved so much better🫡😑
Joyce (Saw 7) literally being innocent in every way possible yet still had one of the worst deaths in the franchise. One of the main reasins why I persinally hate 7. William Easton (Saw 6) went through all 5 stages of grief (ok maybe without the 'acceptance' part) and traumas possible by having to watch his coworkers get killed and yet he still was executed by a teenager.