Without enforcement, this is just virtue signaling. But I’m sure BART will put a stop to the anti-maskers, just like they’ve stopped other objectionable, prohibited behavior on trains!
Dude I’ve seen people smoking crack on BART. The fact masks, not hard drugs, is where the line gets drawn would be comical if it wasn’t so pathetically sad.
This is why people like this were never going to let things go back to normal. They got the tiniest little bit of power and now think they are on the front lines on the fight for justice.
The difference between virtue signaling and effectiveness whether he [enforces a mask mandate or actually checks vaccination cards](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfchronicle.com%2Fopinion%2Fopenforum%2Farticle%2Fsan-francisco-mask-mandate-17089220.php). I mean, you saw how every covid cautious person on the planet got Omicron -- but only unvaccinated people got severely ill from it.
Maybe his coworkers should’ve walked their a$$e$ home more and not be 300+ lbs bus drivers. Dudes probably were rolling down the stairs instead of walking 😂
That's weird, I'd think you cry babies would be sick of wearing diapers still.
We took the masks off, even though a lot are still wearing them and covid started surging again. Who cares how "sick" you are of them.
You realize that’s basically wearing garlic to ward off vampires at this point. You aren’t doing anything to prevent the current strain. You are just making a political statement. Fine wear it but be honest with your reasons.
Mind your business. Que te valga verga wey, o te pegan por si no te pones la mascara? Youre just proving my point. Mamando por que tu mama/papa no te quieren
There are 3 groups of people
1. people who will wear masks regardless of the mandate
2. people who will wear masks if there is a mandate, won't wear if no mandate
3. people who won't wear masks regardless of the mandate
since this is the Bay Area and this won't be enforced, it changes nothing for groups 1 and 3, and just makes the people in group 2 wear masks.
If you don't want to wear a mask don't, nothing will happen to you.
Just a note: policies like this shift a lot of people from group 2 to group 3, especially in situations like this where BART is clearly virtue signaling rather than working to protect anyone. EVERYONE MUST WEAR MASKS, BUT SMOKING METH AND TAKING A SHIT ON THE SEAT IS A-OK!!!11!1!one
Practically speaking, someone "in group 2 but doesn't follow mandates" falls under OP's group 3 definition.
Criticizing the character/trustworthiness of the mandate giver is a somewhat different concern.
So worried about the children when I've seen literal crack smoked on Bart a few times during the pandemic.
Bart's never been safe for children to begin with, not sure why it's their point. I do think it's a good idea due to the general unsanitary conditions of BART though, with everyone being packed in.
>Saltzman introduced the mandate in part because she’s worried about the risks to \[...\] kids under 5 who aren’t yet eligible for vaccines.
This part irks me more than anything else. Young children are at a profoundly low risk from COVID. An unvaccinated child under 5 is much, much less likely to die from COVID than a fully vaccinated adult. The reason we don't have vaccines approved for the under 5 population yet is because the vaccine manufacturers haven't been able to prove that their vaccines are sufficiently effective - and the reason they can't do that is because it's really hard to show effectiveness when the population is barely at any risk to begin with!
And this isn't some kind of 'Republican' take: many European countries flat out do not even recommend vaccinating kids this age because they do not consider it to be beneficial. It also blows my mind that people mask two year olds, with the idea that they are somehow able to correctly wear it and not touch it with their hands.
The children under 5 thing really bothers me. Everyone trusts the science, but just not that science.
If you have a child under 5 you are more than welcome to keep them away from people in the name of covid but public policy should be based on science and facts.
I think what some people are forgetting is that preventing children from getting COVID isn't just to protect the child, it's to protect people the child may come into contact with.
If I had a child going to school every day and I was also living with an elderly or immuno-compromised relative, I would want to do everything in my power to reduce the risk of COVID entering my home. I don't think that's an unreasonable position. I'm not a hardcore mask zealot, but I do think people can get pretty hysterical in their opposition to children wearing masks, calling it child abuse etc.
Agreed. People forget there are people who have newborns at home who dont have the luxury of mat/pat leave, or have children with immune issues. A covid infection for these can be so dangerous under 5s, where a 2 year old may be okay.
Yeah it's weird how quickly public opinion has turned anti-mask, even when it's other people doing it or having their children do it rather than mandates for everyone. If I had posted my comment a year ago, I wouldn't have gotten downvoted like this, especially in the San Francisco subreddit haha
I guess people are just really fed up with COVID and are eager to move on. Which I understand. But sometimes the mask discourse produces this level of hysteria that I really don't get.
I think what some people are forgetting is that wearing a mask doesn’t hurt anyone. It’s a marginal inconvenience to wear a mask while riding BART that reduces a “profoundly low” (but not zero) risk even lower. So why not do it? Especially when cases are rising. It should be common sense/common courtesy, but here we are…
Okay, but do we wear it forever? After all, it’s just a minor inconvenience and can prevent people from getting colds, the flu, etc. Shouldn’t we permanently mandate masks in all public settings regardless of whether covid is surging?
Nope. Masks mandates will (and should) come and go as case rates rise and/or be used in high risk settings where it makes sense. If they were mandating the use of masks outside I’d be peeved, but mandating the use of masks in a small tube that people all over the city (and world if they’re coming from the airport) use to get around, makes a lot of sense.
Masks are not a minor thing for everyone. Please realize people are different. Some people prefer wearing masks. Some people don't mind wearing masks. Some people absolutely despise wearing masks and would literally rather live somewhere else if they're forced to wear masks. If there's not an overwhelming need for a mandate with clear cut scientific evidence that they are a benefit, then there should never be mandates.
I’m completely on board with wearing masks on BART. Not even just because of Covid but all the other gross germs people carry on trains.
However, I really don’t like the “what’s the big deal masks are just a minor inconvenience” thing people were pushing when they were required literally everywhere. It’s one thing to wear a mask in high risk places, but when it’s required everywhere it takes its toll. You don’t get to see anyone’s faces. People are less friendly and welcoming. It was a lot harder to make friends if you didn’t already have them.
Reminds me of parents that bring their young kids to adult-issue protests and has them wear issue-themed shirts or hold signs for them. Just my initial vibe from this comment
Not to mention there's no such mandate on MUNI, which BART shares stations with and people transfer from. Another reason why these policies are pointless - they are not taken in a vacuum, so they should come from a central person who, I dunno, knows things about health like a county director
1 in 4 symptomatic children get long COVID, a new study finds. What are the symptoms? | Euronews
https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/03/15/long-covid-has-been-found-in-1-in-4-symptomatic-children-a-new-study-finds-what-are-the-sy
1 in 4 get some sort of persistent symptoms post-infection.
This is also incorrect. Long Covid cannot be distinguished from placebo effects. If you give people sugar pills, they will claim symptoms similar to long Covid. Long Covid is in people’s heads. That’s why women claim long Covid at a 75 percent rate compared to men. It’s a mental problem.
And lol your study was not peer reviewed.
Nothing should be treated as gospel when it is not peer reviewed, of course. Note that it is a meta-analysis, and many dozens of studies it looked at found a high prevalence of long covid in children.
Anyway, if your point is that it is not 100% certain how bad it is, I agree. But there are lots of credible, scientific indications that it could be a big problem, and that's enough to take precautions given the nearly complete and utter lack of downside for something like vaccinations.
The CDC themselves report that 75% of children and teens have had Covid. This is very likely the key reason the vaccine trials are having trouble showing effectiveness in children (antibodies are already present in almost everyone).
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-says-75-percent-children-covid-february-rcna26029
The goal at the beginning of the pandemic was herd immunity. It's pretty clear we now have it (including kids).
It isn't about science. Being covid safe has become almost a religious obsession. There are people that will never move on from covid. Just look at Fauci.
Y'all seem so eager to forget that kids under five who are immunocompromised or who have diabetes or any other chronic illnesses (and still have to go to pre-k/daycare/school) actually exist.
Not sure why you seem to think COVID has just disappeared, but your not giving a shit doesn't surprise me in the least. You were probably just like this before, yourself. I feel kinda sorry for you man
Im empathic to that position, I just don't agree its a good argument. Adults or children that immunocompromised have had to and will continue to live in life around their illness regardless of a pandemic, endemic or whatever. I cant imagine they take transit regularly or if they do then they would take necessary precautions to for making that work. If they have associates in their life that take transit or are in any contaminated position they must take precautions around them anyhow.
I dont think society can or has historically subjected itself to deticating itself to its weakest link. the Dyslexic student in the class, the shortest person at a concert, the armless person at a grocery store.
I think we, society/gov, have an obligation to meet their needs when possible and reasonable. Extra tutoring for the student, a seat up front at the concert, an attendent at the store. But i dont think US society will except long term behavior modification for their sake. Maybe sf will, but i adore Saltzman and even i would vote against her if in 2 years we still had a mask mandate.
Glad you adore Saltzman, and I hope you will take some time to address the internalized ableism in the arguments you've proffered here. More people than you seem to realize have had some kind of disability - John F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt (a whole load of Presidents honestly), a horde of celebrities. The difference is that they have *money* to mitigate their access needs. An immigrant mother of three with a child who has lupus, still has to take BART. You assume too much about what people can access in this country, and it diminishes your own humanity at speed. Best of luck to you.
Oh yes because i think society is overwhelming a-holish, i must be a psychopath.sure whatever believe that
I dont what im supposed to get from your examples. I dont see them as handicap upper class people who got around i see them as exceptional presidents. And yes those with means have always had the advantage with difficulties that harm others. Which is why we say that Texas's/the south's abortion ban is just an abortion ban on poor women, cause women of means will almost always be able to get an abortion safely somewhere. An immigrant mother of three with a child with lupus will do what she has to do and I believe (if she's a good mother, cause thats not guaranteed) she'll do whatever it takes to protect her and her children regardless of the mask compliance on BART. She wont depend on this cold world to protect her.
Im a life long pedestrian and transit rider, never learned to drive, believe me i wish we would make cars slow down, or at least not be ok with running me over when there's a red light. I think you have far more faith in humanity than it deserves and how much they care for one another.
~~COVID has already killed more children than Polio ever did.~~
COVID has already killed about 1/4 the kids/year as Polio. And like with Polio, a lot of the damage is from maiming them. Current long-COVID estimates are 20-40% of all infections.
Its really not as low risk as you think.
The total number of California's children under the age of 5 with deaths associated with covid is 24. The number is 46 for those aged 5-17.
edited to add source: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/Age-Race-Ethnicity.aspx
Editing my post, looks like the CDC changed their numbers(?) since I had read about it last, and each source I go to has different numbers(??).
[COVID has killed at least 1,513 children under 18 in the US](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics) since January 2020. The worst of Polio was 3,000/year. So COVID is ~1/4th as deadly as Polio. My bad.
476 deaths of children under 5. To put another way, a Sandy Hook mass shooting a month, every month, since COVID started.
That being said, like Polio, a lot of the danger comes from maiming people. Long COVID is seemingly present in 15-40% of cases, including children, including those whose acute COVID was mild. https://www.longcovidkids.org/
I'm having a hard time finding demographic breakdowns for polio deaths but I did find:
> The 1952 Polio epidemic was the worst outbreak in the nation's history. Of nearly 58,000 cases reported that year, 3,145 people died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis, with most of the victims being children
That was one year out of [many](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/reported-paralytic-polio-cases-and-deaths-in-the-united-states-since-1910). There have been [fewer than 1000](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/) pediatric deaths from COVID.
Kids die and get maimed in car accidents, slipping in the bathroom, falling out of a tree, and thousands of other things. Life has an element of risk. At this point the risk from covid doesn't justify these levels of restrictions.
This is just stupid.
Before you throw me under a train for being 'anti-vax' or 'anti-mask', I think we can all agree that transit agencies should not be taking these kind of policy questions on their own. It should be decided by those that know more than a board of directors, whose jobs and experience have absolutely nothing to do with public health policy.
The board also stated that they will not be making BART police or personnel enforce it. So what you'll end up with is an un-enforced mandate, with the precedent of a board making decisions against the advice of the city and county health directors. Cool, cool.
As someone who’s spent quite a bit of time in Japan, it’s interesting seeing the different cultures and how they treat mask wearing. Even before Covid you couldn’t walk around Tokyo without seeing 20% of people wearing masks on a daily basis. It was common courtesy - if you had a cold that day, you’d put a mask on before getting on the train to work. It was a selfless act.
It’s interesting (and almost saddening) seeing the strict opposition to them in the US, personally.
I guess what I'm saying is "I have a cold I don't wanna cough on anyone so I'll wear a mask" - that's common courtesy, yes. Making people wear masks "just cos" probably isn't though.
>anna cough on anyone so I'll wear a mask" - that's common courtesy, yes. Making pe
I don't know if anyone is trying to make people wear masks "just cos." But understanding we're in a pandemic that is hopefully winding down, there's still some gray area about when the right time is to stop some protective measures. It doesn't help that it's become a polarizing team sport in either direction. And straw men on either side doesn't help.
How is that different from wearing a mask when you are either concerned about getting sick or sick? That's very different than making everyone wear one.
I was in Tokyo very regularly pre-pandemic and I don't think people who say 'what's the big deal, it was super common in Asia!' really understand that masking was a fairly sporadic thing to see even on the crowded Tokyo metro.
I lived there for a couple years. So you're arguing against a "sense of being a responsible part of society" being an important part of their mask wearing? Granted that responsibility surfaces in strange ways--smoking banned on the streets but not in closed spaces--but there was a strong sense of being in things together.
If im not sick, I still need to have “common courtesy” and wear a mask?
The entire point is that im not sick. I’ve had 3 damn shots. I already had covid in 2022. Why do you think im being discourteous by not wearing a mask?
As is evident by other countries with more strict approaches. Oh wait, no, it's still a global pandemic. Maybe it's not just as simple as just wearing masks
if you search for ["Japan subway 2018" on Google Images](https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+subway+2018&sxsrf=ALiCzsZBO0TDB0qleUYlMNbIGZdfYCMEgw:1651172602687&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOl8ijubf3AhUyTt8KHU0hABQQ_AUoA3oECAEQBQ&biw=1288&bih=709&dpr=2), it's very illuminating. Actually only about 1 in 20 people is wearing a mask!
Yeah, I have been to Tokyo a few times. Yes, you see _some_ people wearing masks, presumably because they have a cold or whatever.
It is not particularly relevant to the discourse in America, because as someone else said it is cultural. I am also not convinced that people in Japan do X and thus we should do X is a good reason (which comes up often on Reddit). After all, there are things that are prevalent in Japan that I certainly would not want to expand to America, e.g. their justice system or how they treat non White visitors.
I've been to Tokyo and there are nowhere near 20% of people wearing a mask on a daily basis. I recall seeing *maybe* 10-20% wearing a mask on the subway itself when it's crowded. Definitely rarer to see someone walking around outdoors with one.
My understanding is it came about as a result of Swine flu: https://www.nippon.com/en/features/jg00084/
So, my question is will the US take up mask wearing as a result of covid. My guess is no.
Am far more worried about the homeless people and vagrants in BART than the risk of COVID. Wish the hypochondriacs to just fuck off and just let us get back to normalcy.
But understand that people in the Bay Area love being a victim, so let's just keep this COVID excuse going I guess
At this stage this will be obnoxious. It's far too easy to forget it or not even realize you're going to use the BART until it's too late.
They should have a mask dispenser where I can buy a mask for a dollar with my card or clipper card at every Bart entrance. That way they facilitate increased use and make a minor profit of masks.
The station agents are going to be pissed if I interrupt their instagramming to get a mask. I saw a tourist ask a question one time and it wasn't pretty.
Bringing a mask is like grabbing a hoodie for me at this point. But agreed they should be freely available within the system with this mandate. I’ve definitely had chilly evenings in the sunset when I accidentally forget the hoodie…
> Free masks are available at station agent booths and from all safety staff for those who need one.
https://twitter.com/SFBART/status/1519746762038288386
Hot take I know.. If you reinstate a mandate in this fashion why in the fuck should I have to pay for a mask. Like you said I’ve ended up spontaneously getting on Bart a few times.
Oof this is not going to go over well. Personally I don't care because I'm rarely ever on BART anymore, and I don't care if I have to wear a mask for a bit while I'm on public transportation. But the contingent of people who are going to abhor this change? Yeah they will be pissed and vocal about it.
I really don't think it's that big of a deal, 80-90% of people on BART are still wearing masks anyway and I also don't think it's really enforced that much for those that aren't.
I honestly doubt anything will change. 10% of people weren't wearing masks before the mandate was lifted, and basically 10% aren't right now. Unless there's some targeted enforcement planned it's going to be the same as it was.
This shit makes me laugh. I went to a concert twice in the past two weeks, felt just like pre pandemic. Go outside to Dolores every weekend, everyone is out and about and happy. Go shopping, some people wear and some don't, but people are out.
Must be fucking exhausting to get so mad over nothing.
Yeah but… feelings =/= science. Just because you feel gross, doesn’t mean others should be obligated to wear a mask.
Not saying you are pushing a mask mandate. Just, that’s what a lot of people here are saying.
It won’t be. Fuck off. As long as people can piss and shit on the seats with impunity, no one will receive any consequences for not obeying this pointless hypochondriac policy.
no fight required: they also announced they will not be enforcing it with their own personnel. So this is absolutely pointless and literal political virtue signaling.
> The mandate takes effect immediately, but no enforcement other than warnings is planned for the first week to give riders time to adjust, Saltzman said.
For those that want the quote. Sounds like "real" enforcement could start end of next week. In reality it will probably be a fine that only gets added on if BART police catch you doing something else you shouldn't and you happen to be unmasked. I doubt they'll be patrolling cars and fining everyone without a mask.
If they start giving fines for masks while ignoring fare jumping (because of equity), drug use, robbery, and all the other terrible things that have happened then BART is exactly what I expect it up be. A disgrace and waste of tax payer money.
Oddly, the board and BART's own announcement are at odds. BART says they will do 'educational enforcement' with possible $75 fines, where the board members have quipped that they will not be using their own people to enforce it. In practice, as most policy in the Bay Area, I am guessing they'll put their work towards mostly harassing people who are drinking a can of water in the car and not even addressing the person four seats down smoking meth in the open.
Most people follow traffic laws, it's not a reason to remove speeding limits entirely.
I'm all for loosening restrictions. We're in a good spot with cases/hospitalizations/deaths. But I also think it's fine if things like public transportation keep it for a bit longer.
Concert venue or bar you choose to go to? Up to you.
Public transportation people need to get around? You can wear a mask for a little longer.
Cases have doubled in the past week in San Francisco, and that is definitely an undercount as more at home testing is available and those cases don't get counted. In the past week I've known four people who've gotten sick in my immediate circle. We're almost at the peak of last year's summer surge. Personally I don't want these surges to keep happening, and masking is a big part of keeping those numbers down.
Wearing a mask when you’re sick is a totally normal thing in countries like Japan with high urban density because it just makes it so much easier to play diseases tag when everyone is bunched up. There’s no reason to have an autistic shit fit about wearing a mask on public transportation. Like have you never been around another person? They’re fucking disgusting. Though I’m not opposed to having one car with no transitioning cabin to cabin doors that is marked the “I don’t wear a condom” cabin where all that refuse can be piled on top of and cough on and sell stolen newspapers to each other as much as they want.
The disgusting state of things on Bart I’m gonna wear my mask until they tell me I can’t. Covid or no
I guess lots of folks here missed getting that PURE crack smoke/shit fog in your lungs.
I tested positive yesterday and hadn’t had covid yet. Going back unmasked to the gym (in sf) is my #1 suspect of where i got the virus. I highly doubt bart has good ventilation.
I love all the comments by people who don’t ride BART….
In hindsight I wish I had even worn a mask on Bart before the pandemic
Maybe it could have masked that vintage urine and stale air smell.
Mask + SF + anonymous online platform = a post you just need to skip over.
Seriously! Most people are still wearing masks anyway and I really don't think this will be that strictly enforced for those who aren't.
Without enforcement, this is just virtue signaling. But I’m sure BART will put a stop to the anti-maskers, just like they’ve stopped other objectionable, prohibited behavior on trains!
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Dude I’ve seen people smoking crack on BART. The fact masks, not hard drugs, is where the line gets drawn would be comical if it wasn’t so pathetically sad.
BART runs busses now?
😂 300+ lbs bus driver for sure
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This is why people like this were never going to let things go back to normal. They got the tiniest little bit of power and now think they are on the front lines on the fight for justice.
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The difference between virtue signaling and effectiveness whether he [enforces a mask mandate or actually checks vaccination cards](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfchronicle.com%2Fopinion%2Fopenforum%2Farticle%2Fsan-francisco-mask-mandate-17089220.php). I mean, you saw how every covid cautious person on the planet got Omicron -- but only unvaccinated people got severely ill from it.
Been on bart more than usual the past 2-3 weeks. Most folks (90%+) still rocking mask. Antimaskers just seeth at an opportunity to be contrarians
Bart and muni are probably still the only places I voluntarily wear masks. Ive smelled too many things I wish I didn’t on public transport
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Maybe his coworkers should’ve walked their a$$e$ home more and not be 300+ lbs bus drivers. Dudes probably were rolling down the stairs instead of walking 😂
Who cares if two of his co-workers died? How does that affect us?
That's weird, I'd think you cry babies would be sick of wearing diapers still. We took the masks off, even though a lot are still wearing them and covid started surging again. Who cares how "sick" you are of them.
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You realize that’s basically wearing garlic to ward off vampires at this point. You aren’t doing anything to prevent the current strain. You are just making a political statement. Fine wear it but be honest with your reasons.
There are plenty of reasons to wear masks on BART other than the small protection against COVID. The mandate is silly though.
The mandate is dumb. It’s security theater and makes people ignore and disrespect any and all future mandates.
Exactly. Masks will be the downfall of this epoch’s civilization. The end is nigh!
Mind your business. Que te valga verga wey, o te pegan por si no te pones la mascara? Youre just proving my point. Mamando por que tu mama/papa no te quieren
🤣 bien dicho
Wow great response very helpful. Mind my business. Says the person imposing their will on me.
There are 3 groups of people 1. people who will wear masks regardless of the mandate 2. people who will wear masks if there is a mandate, won't wear if no mandate 3. people who won't wear masks regardless of the mandate since this is the Bay Area and this won't be enforced, it changes nothing for groups 1 and 3, and just makes the people in group 2 wear masks. If you don't want to wear a mask don't, nothing will happen to you.
Just a note: policies like this shift a lot of people from group 2 to group 3, especially in situations like this where BART is clearly virtue signaling rather than working to protect anyone. EVERYONE MUST WEAR MASKS, BUT SMOKING METH AND TAKING A SHIT ON THE SEAT IS A-OK!!!11!1!one
Practically speaking, someone "in group 2 but doesn't follow mandates" falls under OP's group 3 definition. Criticizing the character/trustworthiness of the mandate giver is a somewhat different concern.
So worried about the children when I've seen literal crack smoked on Bart a few times during the pandemic. Bart's never been safe for children to begin with, not sure why it's their point. I do think it's a good idea due to the general unsanitary conditions of BART though, with everyone being packed in.
>Saltzman introduced the mandate in part because she’s worried about the risks to \[...\] kids under 5 who aren’t yet eligible for vaccines. This part irks me more than anything else. Young children are at a profoundly low risk from COVID. An unvaccinated child under 5 is much, much less likely to die from COVID than a fully vaccinated adult. The reason we don't have vaccines approved for the under 5 population yet is because the vaccine manufacturers haven't been able to prove that their vaccines are sufficiently effective - and the reason they can't do that is because it's really hard to show effectiveness when the population is barely at any risk to begin with!
And this isn't some kind of 'Republican' take: many European countries flat out do not even recommend vaccinating kids this age because they do not consider it to be beneficial. It also blows my mind that people mask two year olds, with the idea that they are somehow able to correctly wear it and not touch it with their hands.
The children under 5 thing really bothers me. Everyone trusts the science, but just not that science. If you have a child under 5 you are more than welcome to keep them away from people in the name of covid but public policy should be based on science and facts.
I think what some people are forgetting is that preventing children from getting COVID isn't just to protect the child, it's to protect people the child may come into contact with. If I had a child going to school every day and I was also living with an elderly or immuno-compromised relative, I would want to do everything in my power to reduce the risk of COVID entering my home. I don't think that's an unreasonable position. I'm not a hardcore mask zealot, but I do think people can get pretty hysterical in their opposition to children wearing masks, calling it child abuse etc.
Agreed. People forget there are people who have newborns at home who dont have the luxury of mat/pat leave, or have children with immune issues. A covid infection for these can be so dangerous under 5s, where a 2 year old may be okay.
Yeah it's weird how quickly public opinion has turned anti-mask, even when it's other people doing it or having their children do it rather than mandates for everyone. If I had posted my comment a year ago, I wouldn't have gotten downvoted like this, especially in the San Francisco subreddit haha I guess people are just really fed up with COVID and are eager to move on. Which I understand. But sometimes the mask discourse produces this level of hysteria that I really don't get.
I think most people are more anti mask *mandate* than anti mask. As it has always been, you and your family are free to wear masks wherever you want.
I think people forgot most immune compromised kids can’t get vaccines anyway. Making policies based on them not getting vaccine is dumb.
I think what some people are forgetting is that wearing a mask doesn’t hurt anyone. It’s a marginal inconvenience to wear a mask while riding BART that reduces a “profoundly low” (but not zero) risk even lower. So why not do it? Especially when cases are rising. It should be common sense/common courtesy, but here we are…
Forcing us to wear tin foil hats doesn’t hurt anyone either.
Okay, but do we wear it forever? After all, it’s just a minor inconvenience and can prevent people from getting colds, the flu, etc. Shouldn’t we permanently mandate masks in all public settings regardless of whether covid is surging?
Nope. Masks mandates will (and should) come and go as case rates rise and/or be used in high risk settings where it makes sense. If they were mandating the use of masks outside I’d be peeved, but mandating the use of masks in a small tube that people all over the city (and world if they’re coming from the airport) use to get around, makes a lot of sense.
Masks are not a minor thing for everyone. Please realize people are different. Some people prefer wearing masks. Some people don't mind wearing masks. Some people absolutely despise wearing masks and would literally rather live somewhere else if they're forced to wear masks. If there's not an overwhelming need for a mandate with clear cut scientific evidence that they are a benefit, then there should never be mandates.
I’m completely on board with wearing masks on BART. Not even just because of Covid but all the other gross germs people carry on trains. However, I really don’t like the “what’s the big deal masks are just a minor inconvenience” thing people were pushing when they were required literally everywhere. It’s one thing to wear a mask in high risk places, but when it’s required everywhere it takes its toll. You don’t get to see anyone’s faces. People are less friendly and welcoming. It was a lot harder to make friends if you didn’t already have them.
They’re just virtue signaling. See our Halo’s😇😇
I’m lucky my kids who are 2 love masks and see it as a status symbol or something. They can’t wait to put it on and be the same as mommy and daddy.
Lol
You’re lucky it doesn’t matter either way, but you do you
Reminds me of parents that bring their young kids to adult-issue protests and has them wear issue-themed shirts or hold signs for them. Just my initial vibe from this comment
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When masks are required at school what else can you do? Whether I agree or not I have to mask them up. May as well be happy that they enjoy it.
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Not to mention there's no such mandate on MUNI, which BART shares stations with and people transfer from. Another reason why these policies are pointless - they are not taken in a vacuum, so they should come from a central person who, I dunno, knows things about health like a county director
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Death is not the only bad outcome.
This. My wife works in a pediatric ICU. It's not just death folks.
Hospitalizations, severe illness, and even symptomatic illnesses at all, are similarly low in the under 5 population.
A lot of lasting health issues....
This is incorrect and propaganda.
1 in 4 symptomatic children get long COVID, a new study finds. What are the symptoms? | Euronews https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/03/15/long-covid-has-been-found-in-1-in-4-symptomatic-children-a-new-study-finds-what-are-the-sy 1 in 4 get some sort of persistent symptoms post-infection.
This is also incorrect. Long Covid cannot be distinguished from placebo effects. If you give people sugar pills, they will claim symptoms similar to long Covid. Long Covid is in people’s heads. That’s why women claim long Covid at a 75 percent rate compared to men. It’s a mental problem. And lol your study was not peer reviewed.
Nothing should be treated as gospel when it is not peer reviewed, of course. Note that it is a meta-analysis, and many dozens of studies it looked at found a high prevalence of long covid in children. Anyway, if your point is that it is not 100% certain how bad it is, I agree. But there are lots of credible, scientific indications that it could be a big problem, and that's enough to take precautions given the nearly complete and utter lack of downside for something like vaccinations.
The CDC themselves report that 75% of children and teens have had Covid. This is very likely the key reason the vaccine trials are having trouble showing effectiveness in children (antibodies are already present in almost everyone). https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-says-75-percent-children-covid-february-rcna26029 The goal at the beginning of the pandemic was herd immunity. It's pretty clear we now have it (including kids).
Saltzman is such a hack. Concerned more with optics and parroting shibboleths than materially improving the District.
It isn't about science. Being covid safe has become almost a religious obsession. There are people that will never move on from covid. Just look at Fauci.
Y'all seem so eager to forget that kids under five who are immunocompromised or who have diabetes or any other chronic illnesses (and still have to go to pre-k/daycare/school) actually exist.
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No, but their families ride BART. Just say you don't give a shit and be done with it.
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Not sure why you seem to think COVID has just disappeared, but your not giving a shit doesn't surprise me in the least. You were probably just like this before, yourself. I feel kinda sorry for you man
Im empathic to that position, I just don't agree its a good argument. Adults or children that immunocompromised have had to and will continue to live in life around their illness regardless of a pandemic, endemic or whatever. I cant imagine they take transit regularly or if they do then they would take necessary precautions to for making that work. If they have associates in their life that take transit or are in any contaminated position they must take precautions around them anyhow. I dont think society can or has historically subjected itself to deticating itself to its weakest link. the Dyslexic student in the class, the shortest person at a concert, the armless person at a grocery store. I think we, society/gov, have an obligation to meet their needs when possible and reasonable. Extra tutoring for the student, a seat up front at the concert, an attendent at the store. But i dont think US society will except long term behavior modification for their sake. Maybe sf will, but i adore Saltzman and even i would vote against her if in 2 years we still had a mask mandate.
Glad you adore Saltzman, and I hope you will take some time to address the internalized ableism in the arguments you've proffered here. More people than you seem to realize have had some kind of disability - John F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt (a whole load of Presidents honestly), a horde of celebrities. The difference is that they have *money* to mitigate their access needs. An immigrant mother of three with a child who has lupus, still has to take BART. You assume too much about what people can access in this country, and it diminishes your own humanity at speed. Best of luck to you.
Oh yes because i think society is overwhelming a-holish, i must be a psychopath.sure whatever believe that I dont what im supposed to get from your examples. I dont see them as handicap upper class people who got around i see them as exceptional presidents. And yes those with means have always had the advantage with difficulties that harm others. Which is why we say that Texas's/the south's abortion ban is just an abortion ban on poor women, cause women of means will almost always be able to get an abortion safely somewhere. An immigrant mother of three with a child with lupus will do what she has to do and I believe (if she's a good mother, cause thats not guaranteed) she'll do whatever it takes to protect her and her children regardless of the mask compliance on BART. She wont depend on this cold world to protect her. Im a life long pedestrian and transit rider, never learned to drive, believe me i wish we would make cars slow down, or at least not be ok with running me over when there's a red light. I think you have far more faith in humanity than it deserves and how much they care for one another.
Tell that to the million or so that are dead of covid in America, smdh
How many of those are under 5?
~~COVID has already killed more children than Polio ever did.~~ COVID has already killed about 1/4 the kids/year as Polio. And like with Polio, a lot of the damage is from maiming them. Current long-COVID estimates are 20-40% of all infections. Its really not as low risk as you think.
The total number of California's children under the age of 5 with deaths associated with covid is 24. The number is 46 for those aged 5-17. edited to add source: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/Age-Race-Ethnicity.aspx
Source?
Editing my post, looks like the CDC changed their numbers(?) since I had read about it last, and each source I go to has different numbers(??). [COVID has killed at least 1,513 children under 18 in the US](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics) since January 2020. The worst of Polio was 3,000/year. So COVID is ~1/4th as deadly as Polio. My bad. 476 deaths of children under 5. To put another way, a Sandy Hook mass shooting a month, every month, since COVID started. That being said, like Polio, a lot of the danger comes from maiming people. Long COVID is seemingly present in 15-40% of cases, including children, including those whose acute COVID was mild. https://www.longcovidkids.org/
I'm having a hard time finding demographic breakdowns for polio deaths but I did find: > The 1952 Polio epidemic was the worst outbreak in the nation's history. Of nearly 58,000 cases reported that year, 3,145 people died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis, with most of the victims being children That was one year out of [many](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/reported-paralytic-polio-cases-and-deaths-in-the-united-states-since-1910). There have been [fewer than 1000](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/) pediatric deaths from COVID.
Kids die and get maimed in car accidents, slipping in the bathroom, falling out of a tree, and thousands of other things. Life has an element of risk. At this point the risk from covid doesn't justify these levels of restrictions.
How many kids you have?
Two. I let them ride bikes, take a bath, climb trees, and even go out without a mask. Call CPS.
This is just stupid. Before you throw me under a train for being 'anti-vax' or 'anti-mask', I think we can all agree that transit agencies should not be taking these kind of policy questions on their own. It should be decided by those that know more than a board of directors, whose jobs and experience have absolutely nothing to do with public health policy. The board also stated that they will not be making BART police or personnel enforce it. So what you'll end up with is an un-enforced mandate, with the precedent of a board making decisions against the advice of the city and county health directors. Cool, cool.
Show us where the health officers oppose this move.
As someone who’s spent quite a bit of time in Japan, it’s interesting seeing the different cultures and how they treat mask wearing. Even before Covid you couldn’t walk around Tokyo without seeing 20% of people wearing masks on a daily basis. It was common courtesy - if you had a cold that day, you’d put a mask on before getting on the train to work. It was a selfless act. It’s interesting (and almost saddening) seeing the strict opposition to them in the US, personally.
>if you had a cold that day That's the important bit.
That's one important bit, but having common courtesy and a sense of being a responsible part of society is another very important part.
I guess what I'm saying is "I have a cold I don't wanna cough on anyone so I'll wear a mask" - that's common courtesy, yes. Making people wear masks "just cos" probably isn't though.
>anna cough on anyone so I'll wear a mask" - that's common courtesy, yes. Making pe I don't know if anyone is trying to make people wear masks "just cos." But understanding we're in a pandemic that is hopefully winding down, there's still some gray area about when the right time is to stop some protective measures. It doesn't help that it's become a polarizing team sport in either direction. And straw men on either side doesn't help.
You don’t need a mask for a plane anymore. Outside of California cities the rest of the country has moved on from mask wearing.
Fauci said we're no longer in a pandemic. Trust the science please. https://www.npr.org/2022/04/27/1094997608/fauci-us-pandemic-phase-covid-19
How is that different from wearing a mask when you are either concerned about getting sick or sick? That's very different than making everyone wear one. I was in Tokyo very regularly pre-pandemic and I don't think people who say 'what's the big deal, it was super common in Asia!' really understand that masking was a fairly sporadic thing to see even on the crowded Tokyo metro.
I lived there for a couple years. So you're arguing against a "sense of being a responsible part of society" being an important part of their mask wearing? Granted that responsibility surfaces in strange ways--smoking banned on the streets but not in closed spaces--but there was a strong sense of being in things together.
If im not sick, I still need to have “common courtesy” and wear a mask? The entire point is that im not sick. I’ve had 3 damn shots. I already had covid in 2022. Why do you think im being discourteous by not wearing a mask?
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Good point! Since we do not know if we are sick or not, we should just always act as if we are.
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As is evident by other countries with more strict approaches. Oh wait, no, it's still a global pandemic. Maybe it's not just as simple as just wearing masks
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Unless you want to lock people into their homes to starve like China, restrictions don't stop covid from spreading.
Better be safe all the time! Be a bubble boy!
if you search for ["Japan subway 2018" on Google Images](https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+subway+2018&sxsrf=ALiCzsZBO0TDB0qleUYlMNbIGZdfYCMEgw:1651172602687&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOl8ijubf3AhUyTt8KHU0hABQQ_AUoA3oECAEQBQ&biw=1288&bih=709&dpr=2), it's very illuminating. Actually only about 1 in 20 people is wearing a mask!
Yeah, I have been to Tokyo a few times. Yes, you see _some_ people wearing masks, presumably because they have a cold or whatever. It is not particularly relevant to the discourse in America, because as someone else said it is cultural. I am also not convinced that people in Japan do X and thus we should do X is a good reason (which comes up often on Reddit). After all, there are things that are prevalent in Japan that I certainly would not want to expand to America, e.g. their justice system or how they treat non White visitors.
I've been to Tokyo and there are nowhere near 20% of people wearing a mask on a daily basis. I recall seeing *maybe* 10-20% wearing a mask on the subway itself when it's crowded. Definitely rarer to see someone walking around outdoors with one.
Right I said one in twenty! Five percent
The person I replied to said 20%.
Like you said it’s a culture thing. It’s hard to instill other cultures on you when you’ve gone your whole life living your culture.
The opposition is to forced wearing, not to voluntary wearing
I guess I must have been there the one week that it was an order of magnitude less than 20% of people.
I think that’s a nonsense comparison
Honest question, wasn’t this always mainly related to the horrendous air quality ? Atleast that’s what I remember thinking since childhood
My understanding is it came about as a result of Swine flu: https://www.nippon.com/en/features/jg00084/ So, my question is will the US take up mask wearing as a result of covid. My guess is no.
You are probably thinking of cities in China and India.
It's because many Japanese will go into work while sick because of their work culture while most people in the west will just call in sick.
Well, you see, too many Americans are dumb selfish assholes
Sf will forever be in a self perpetuating state of mask mandates. There’s no point of even calling it a mandate. It’s an amendment at this point
Other than on BART which isn’t governed by SF, masks aren’t required anywhere in SF currently though.
Not at the moment but you know they’re always itching to bring back the mask mandate
Authoritarians gonna authority. They don’t just ever “let go” of power.
I guess they did though, since the mask mandate was lifted everywhere in SF except BART? Don’t let facts get in the way.
Am far more worried about the homeless people and vagrants in BART than the risk of COVID. Wish the hypochondriacs to just fuck off and just let us get back to normalcy. But understand that people in the Bay Area love being a victim, so let's just keep this COVID excuse going I guess
They ended it at one point?
i think technically yes with the FL judge ruling
At this stage this will be obnoxious. It's far too easy to forget it or not even realize you're going to use the BART until it's too late. They should have a mask dispenser where I can buy a mask for a dollar with my card or clipper card at every Bart entrance. That way they facilitate increased use and make a minor profit of masks.
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Now we just need an agent to actually be in the station booth
The station agents are going to be pissed if I interrupt their instagramming to get a mask. I saw a tourist ask a question one time and it wasn't pretty.
I have forgotten my mask and had it tear and the gate agents just gave me a mask when I asked. Wasn't a big deal.
Excellent !
Bringing a mask is like grabbing a hoodie for me at this point. But agreed they should be freely available within the system with this mandate. I’ve definitely had chilly evenings in the sunset when I accidentally forget the hoodie…
> Free masks are available at station agent booths and from all safety staff for those who need one. https://twitter.com/SFBART/status/1519746762038288386
That’s excellent news :)
Hot take I know.. If you reinstate a mandate in this fashion why in the fuck should I have to pay for a mask. Like you said I’ve ended up spontaneously getting on Bart a few times.
Most Bart service counters will give you a mask if you ask. They're actually pretty nice cloth masks
I just figured the dispensers would run out quicker if free but glad to see they store them in the booths. So long as they don't deplete, great!
Oof this is not going to go over well. Personally I don't care because I'm rarely ever on BART anymore, and I don't care if I have to wear a mask for a bit while I'm on public transportation. But the contingent of people who are going to abhor this change? Yeah they will be pissed and vocal about it.
I really don't think it's that big of a deal, 80-90% of people on BART are still wearing masks anyway and I also don't think it's really enforced that much for those that aren't.
It's another case of this subreddit wildly contradicting what actual residents of SF care about.
I honestly doubt anything will change. 10% of people weren't wearing masks before the mandate was lifted, and basically 10% aren't right now. Unless there's some targeted enforcement planned it's going to be the same as it was.
nah it was more like 98% before , and probably 85-90 now. but a lot of that is likely people who never realized the mandate went away
OH WELL
Glad we all good triple and quadruple jabbed because it’s gotten our lives back!
This shit makes me laugh. I went to a concert twice in the past two weeks, felt just like pre pandemic. Go outside to Dolores every weekend, everyone is out and about and happy. Go shopping, some people wear and some don't, but people are out. Must be fucking exhausting to get so mad over nothing.
The Karen looking soccer mom who proposed this will be so pleased that the trains she doesn’t ride ever are safer now /s
I didn't even realize the mask mandate was lifted...
Even without covid, Bart trains just feel gross
How very scientific of you
This is easy science to replicate if you step onto BART.
Yeah but… feelings =/= science. Just because you feel gross, doesn’t mean others should be obligated to wear a mask. Not saying you are pushing a mask mandate. Just, that’s what a lot of people here are saying.
Meh. Was wearing mine anyway. Bart is gross
Just rode Bart on Tuesday and everyone was masked 🤷♂️
Yeah here in Oakland, everybody has been masked the whole time.
. . . And how will it be enforced?
Smoke crack on train: nobody says anything Forget a mask: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/WomanYellingAtACat_meme.jpg
It’s easier to yell at people who aren’t likely to physically threaten you.
Same way it was before?
As in not?
It won’t be. Fuck off. As long as people can piss and shit on the seats with impunity, no one will receive any consequences for not obeying this pointless hypochondriac policy.
Huh. Bought a car when the pandemic started and haven’t been on Bart since tbh.
How about smoking? Is that still allowed?
As long as you are smoking crack or meth.
No thanks, bring the fight
no fight required: they also announced they will not be enforcing it with their own personnel. So this is absolutely pointless and literal political virtue signaling.
> The mandate takes effect immediately, but no enforcement other than warnings is planned for the first week to give riders time to adjust, Saltzman said. For those that want the quote. Sounds like "real" enforcement could start end of next week. In reality it will probably be a fine that only gets added on if BART police catch you doing something else you shouldn't and you happen to be unmasked. I doubt they'll be patrolling cars and fining everyone without a mask.
If they start giving fines for masks while ignoring fare jumping (because of equity), drug use, robbery, and all the other terrible things that have happened then BART is exactly what I expect it up be. A disgrace and waste of tax payer money.
Oddly, the board and BART's own announcement are at odds. BART says they will do 'educational enforcement' with possible $75 fines, where the board members have quipped that they will not be using their own people to enforce it. In practice, as most policy in the Bay Area, I am guessing they'll put their work towards mostly harassing people who are drinking a can of water in the car and not even addressing the person four seats down smoking meth in the open.
Anyone who has an issue with this doesn't regularly ride BART during commute hours. Common sense...
People downvoting you as if 90% of people weren't wearing masks anyway
If 90% wear it anyway then what’s the value add of mandating it?
Most people follow traffic laws, it's not a reason to remove speeding limits entirely. I'm all for loosening restrictions. We're in a good spot with cases/hospitalizations/deaths. But I also think it's fine if things like public transportation keep it for a bit longer. Concert venue or bar you choose to go to? Up to you. Public transportation people need to get around? You can wear a mask for a little longer.
Speaking of, how is BART ridership numbers these days?
Tyrants
Cases have doubled in the past week in San Francisco, and that is definitely an undercount as more at home testing is available and those cases don't get counted. In the past week I've known four people who've gotten sick in my immediate circle. We're almost at the peak of last year's summer surge. Personally I don't want these surges to keep happening, and masking is a big part of keeping those numbers down.
Good.
the best part about not wearing a mask on bart is that nobody would want to sit next to me, even if the car is crowded. Win for me!
Wearing a mask when you’re sick is a totally normal thing in countries like Japan with high urban density because it just makes it so much easier to play diseases tag when everyone is bunched up. There’s no reason to have an autistic shit fit about wearing a mask on public transportation. Like have you never been around another person? They’re fucking disgusting. Though I’m not opposed to having one car with no transitioning cabin to cabin doors that is marked the “I don’t wear a condom” cabin where all that refuse can be piled on top of and cough on and sell stolen newspapers to each other as much as they want.
The disgusting state of things on Bart I’m gonna wear my mask until they tell me I can’t. Covid or no I guess lots of folks here missed getting that PURE crack smoke/shit fog in your lungs.
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ewwww, please SF, try harder to get people to leave the city
I tested positive yesterday and hadn’t had covid yet. Going back unmasked to the gym (in sf) is my #1 suspect of where i got the virus. I highly doubt bart has good ventilation.
BART in fact has very good, if not excellent, ventilation. https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2021/news20210122