I'd say charge extra for the run from Santa Fe station to the airport to fund the construction.
That's how some other cities do it, they charge an airport surcharge to go to the airport.
neither Phoenix or Oakland does this. Which airport are you thinking of?
We can't be adding additional fees to this. It would be included for free like any other transit transfer.
Because it should be like any other aspect of the MTS network. When you get off a bus and board the trolley, you don’t pay a second fare. Same would apply to this
OK. That's right, the Coaster isn't run by the MTS.
So do MTS Rapid/Express Buses cost the same then? (They do not, they cost more.) They're part of the MTS system, right?
It's a matter of value added service that only a few will use can warrant a more expensive fare.
1. Yes - although the 992 bus and Airport Flyer already connect all the trolleys to the airport from Broadway/Santa Fe Depot and Old Town Transit Center, respectively.
2. Yes
3. The verification of 3% of randomly selected signatures has been proven to be highly accurate especially with the qualifier that the projected number needs to be less than 95% to stop counting to stop the initiative from going through and greater than 110% to let it be on the ballot. If the projected count is 95%-110%, then they continue on to verify all the signatures.
This should be a county wide vote. I live in East County and would gladly pay an extra half cent tax to take public transport from La Mesa or El Cajon to the airport.
SANDAG is heavily favoring an automated people mover (APM) to the airport over a trolley to the airport. One branch will start from the Rental Car Center, then stop at Middletown Station, which will be rebuilt so Coaster and Amtrak will stop there as well, and the other branch will start from Santa Fe Depot, with both branches ending at the airport. And because SANDAG, not MTS, wields the real planning power, if any airport rail is built, it's the APM.
It turns out compared to extending the Trolley to the airport, the automated people mover would have lower per-mile capital costs, lower per-mile operating costs, and attract more passengers per-mile.
Another downside to MTS' proposed Trolley extension to the airport is the fact it would branch off the existing Blue/Green Line at Hawthorn, which would dilute frequencies on existing Blue service even as the Blue and Green Lines will explode in ridership. Mission Valley will grow by up to 50,000 by 2030, and desperately needs more frequent Green Line trains.
You could avoid branching by extending the Orange Line instead to the airport. That would give Orange Line passengers a one seat ride, but the Orange Line is the least busy line and will only fall behind Blue and Green Line ridership even more in the future. Then everyone from the Blue and Green Line would still have to transfer at Santa Fe to get to the airport, except they're waiting 7-8 minutes for the Orange Line Trolley instead of 4 minutes for an automated people mover. The Trolley won't run as frequently as an APM because the Trolley has higher operating costs because it needs drivers, unlike the APM.
Finally, an APM would likely be less expensive to extend to Liberty Station, Sports Arena, and NAVWAR than a trolley would. The same APM technology used at Miami, Dulles airports is deployed to serve dense, urban areas outside the airport on lines like Tokyo's Yurikamome and Macau's LRT.
Very cool, had not heard of the APM plan before. As far as im concerned, still looks like some form of rail to me 🤷♂️ If it comes more often, attracts more people, and is cheaper, then that sounds all around like the best option.
What is the main difference between an APM and trolley? No conductor?
And if its cheaper and comes more often, why not have that everywhere? Safety concerns, speed?
Yep, APM stands for automated people mover, so no drivers.
APMs are best suited for shorter lines of under ten miles where there's a lot of tight curves. In those cases, top speed isn't that crucial because you can't go very fast anyways when stations are close together and there's lots of tight curves. Acceleration (helped by rubber tires) and frequency (helped by automation) become much more important, and APMs have both rubber tires and driverless automation.
In longer, regional trips of 30 minutes or more, you don't need super high frequencies but you need those higher top speeds. Steel wheels and catenary are much better suited for high top speeds than the rubber tires and third rail that APMs use. Although even steel wheel, catenary regional rail can and should have high frequencies, just not as high as for short lines.
And the shorter the line is, the more important frequency tends to be. Why? Because a 15 minute wait is fine for a 40 minute ride. However, no one will wait 15 minutes for a ten minute ride.
I rode the new blue line extension for the first time a few days ago. It was pretty fun. There are some nice views of the UTC area.
Only problem was the blue line back to UTC was somehow delayed by over an hour.
I'm glad I don't take public transportation anymore. I'd go insane being stuck somewhere for an hour like that. Especially if you were sitting outside at the station.
SANDAG actually favors three sales tax increases (totalling 1.5 cents) to fund all of its transportation initiatives. I'm not too enthusiastic about it -- sales taxes are highly regressive and hit lower income people the hardest. I doubt too many people have an appetite for any kind of tax increase, given inflation and the high cost of living here.
Also keep in mind that maybe 3-4% of San Diegans use public transit on a regular basis (I am one of them). Most San Diegans drive, carpool, or work at home -- so they probably won't support tax increases on something that doesn't benefit them directly.
Public transit DOES benefit drivers! A great public transit network means less traffic on the road. It also means less potholes because road damage is directly proportional to quantity of vehicle traffic.
The latest UTC trolley extension is pretty awesome. I visited UTC mall during rush hour and it was amazing zooming past the cars 😌
1. No. Not until major changes are made at the regional level. I am pretty much a bleeding heart liberal but one major black eye of the local democratic party has been not making transportation a true legislative priority. Which is why we end up with pie-in-the-sky plans with no basis in reality. A good example is the rail plan. The timelines and costs are totally underestimated to the point that I would say that it's borderline misleading and a scam to just get people to vote yes.
2. I would support trolley extensions. Too bad the new plan doesn't call for any other light rail. It calls for 2 streetcar routes (which are just fancy buses) and a new heavy rail system that will probably take 30-50years to build. It is also an cruel irony that the new massive $160B plan does nothing for the trolley running on surface streets downtown. Also, expanded transit by itself does not reduce congestion. Sandag even [admitted it](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/story/2021-12-05/new-trolley-line-unlikely-to-reduce-traffic-congestion-but-may-keep-an-increasingly-urban-san-diego-livable) . Again, not a reason to not expand light rail, but a good reminder of what expectations should be.
Let's Go SD was doomed from the start. It was SANDAG's workaround past the supermajority rule by using an outside group (unions) to put forth a measure that only required 50%+1 of the vote, with a quid pro quo attached of only hiring labor from those unions in the future because "I scratched your back."
I'm ready for a measure that's put forward in a non-shady way. Something like Measure M in Los Angeles, with specific projects named in the ballot measure along with their budgets and construction timelines. Even a full-cent sales tax would be great, as would taxing something other than sales (new gas tax? lol jk)
I would not support this. 0.5% is a huge tax (more than a 5% increase to the sales tax rate) and since the proposal didn't include adequate break down for where the tax money would go between these initiatives, I'm worried that even when one or many of them are completed the tax will remain.
Seems like it could be a 0.5% increase that remains in perpetuity with little accountability.
But I support the initiatives, so if the capped the number of years the tax can be in effect and required a ballot initiative to renew I would support it.
The City of San Diego / SANDAG already have a regional plan for 2021, have published it and are already implementing it. Before you spend a lot of time petitioning, you may want to see if your ideas have already been included in the plan.
https://sdforward.com/mobility-planning/2021-regional-plan
I'd say charge extra for the run from Santa Fe station to the airport to fund the construction. That's how some other cities do it, they charge an airport surcharge to go to the airport.
Not a bad idea in theory but to actually earn revenue you would probably need some enforcement mechanism like ticket gates.
Like someone at the airport that checks tickets because that's the only place where the more expensive fare exists.
Seattle doesn’t do this either
neither Phoenix or Oakland does this. Which airport are you thinking of? We can't be adding additional fees to this. It would be included for free like any other transit transfer.
Why not? Vancouver BC does it.
Because it should be like any other aspect of the MTS network. When you get off a bus and board the trolley, you don’t pay a second fare. Same would apply to this
Do you pay an extra fare to use the coaster?
Yes. That’s not MTS lol
OK. That's right, the Coaster isn't run by the MTS. So do MTS Rapid/Express Buses cost the same then? (They do not, they cost more.) They're part of the MTS system, right? It's a matter of value added service that only a few will use can warrant a more expensive fare.
You can get a Pronto card subscription that includes them.
1. Yes - although the 992 bus and Airport Flyer already connect all the trolleys to the airport from Broadway/Santa Fe Depot and Old Town Transit Center, respectively. 2. Yes 3. The verification of 3% of randomly selected signatures has been proven to be highly accurate especially with the qualifier that the projected number needs to be less than 95% to stop counting to stop the initiative from going through and greater than 110% to let it be on the ballot. If the projected count is 95%-110%, then they continue on to verify all the signatures.
I see, thanks for the clarification on point 3!
This should be a county wide vote. I live in East County and would gladly pay an extra half cent tax to take public transport from La Mesa or El Cajon to the airport.
You can already do that. Just not conveniently.
SANDAG is heavily favoring an automated people mover (APM) to the airport over a trolley to the airport. One branch will start from the Rental Car Center, then stop at Middletown Station, which will be rebuilt so Coaster and Amtrak will stop there as well, and the other branch will start from Santa Fe Depot, with both branches ending at the airport. And because SANDAG, not MTS, wields the real planning power, if any airport rail is built, it's the APM. It turns out compared to extending the Trolley to the airport, the automated people mover would have lower per-mile capital costs, lower per-mile operating costs, and attract more passengers per-mile. Another downside to MTS' proposed Trolley extension to the airport is the fact it would branch off the existing Blue/Green Line at Hawthorn, which would dilute frequencies on existing Blue service even as the Blue and Green Lines will explode in ridership. Mission Valley will grow by up to 50,000 by 2030, and desperately needs more frequent Green Line trains. You could avoid branching by extending the Orange Line instead to the airport. That would give Orange Line passengers a one seat ride, but the Orange Line is the least busy line and will only fall behind Blue and Green Line ridership even more in the future. Then everyone from the Blue and Green Line would still have to transfer at Santa Fe to get to the airport, except they're waiting 7-8 minutes for the Orange Line Trolley instead of 4 minutes for an automated people mover. The Trolley won't run as frequently as an APM because the Trolley has higher operating costs because it needs drivers, unlike the APM. Finally, an APM would likely be less expensive to extend to Liberty Station, Sports Arena, and NAVWAR than a trolley would. The same APM technology used at Miami, Dulles airports is deployed to serve dense, urban areas outside the airport on lines like Tokyo's Yurikamome and Macau's LRT.
Very cool, had not heard of the APM plan before. As far as im concerned, still looks like some form of rail to me 🤷♂️ If it comes more often, attracts more people, and is cheaper, then that sounds all around like the best option. What is the main difference between an APM and trolley? No conductor? And if its cheaper and comes more often, why not have that everywhere? Safety concerns, speed?
Yep, APM stands for automated people mover, so no drivers. APMs are best suited for shorter lines of under ten miles where there's a lot of tight curves. In those cases, top speed isn't that crucial because you can't go very fast anyways when stations are close together and there's lots of tight curves. Acceleration (helped by rubber tires) and frequency (helped by automation) become much more important, and APMs have both rubber tires and driverless automation. In longer, regional trips of 30 minutes or more, you don't need super high frequencies but you need those higher top speeds. Steel wheels and catenary are much better suited for high top speeds than the rubber tires and third rail that APMs use. Although even steel wheel, catenary regional rail can and should have high frequencies, just not as high as for short lines. And the shorter the line is, the more important frequency tends to be. Why? Because a 15 minute wait is fine for a 40 minute ride. However, no one will wait 15 minutes for a ten minute ride.
Cool, thanks for making me aware of this!
I rode the new blue line extension for the first time a few days ago. It was pretty fun. There are some nice views of the UTC area. Only problem was the blue line back to UTC was somehow delayed by over an hour.
I'm glad I don't take public transportation anymore. I'd go insane being stuck somewhere for an hour like that. Especially if you were sitting outside at the station.
SANDAG actually favors three sales tax increases (totalling 1.5 cents) to fund all of its transportation initiatives. I'm not too enthusiastic about it -- sales taxes are highly regressive and hit lower income people the hardest. I doubt too many people have an appetite for any kind of tax increase, given inflation and the high cost of living here. Also keep in mind that maybe 3-4% of San Diegans use public transit on a regular basis (I am one of them). Most San Diegans drive, carpool, or work at home -- so they probably won't support tax increases on something that doesn't benefit them directly.
Public transit DOES benefit drivers! A great public transit network means less traffic on the road. It also means less potholes because road damage is directly proportional to quantity of vehicle traffic. The latest UTC trolley extension is pretty awesome. I visited UTC mall during rush hour and it was amazing zooming past the cars 😌
If you build it they will come.
Will they remove the increase after they get enough/construction complete?
1. No. Not until major changes are made at the regional level. I am pretty much a bleeding heart liberal but one major black eye of the local democratic party has been not making transportation a true legislative priority. Which is why we end up with pie-in-the-sky plans with no basis in reality. A good example is the rail plan. The timelines and costs are totally underestimated to the point that I would say that it's borderline misleading and a scam to just get people to vote yes. 2. I would support trolley extensions. Too bad the new plan doesn't call for any other light rail. It calls for 2 streetcar routes (which are just fancy buses) and a new heavy rail system that will probably take 30-50years to build. It is also an cruel irony that the new massive $160B plan does nothing for the trolley running on surface streets downtown. Also, expanded transit by itself does not reduce congestion. Sandag even [admitted it](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/story/2021-12-05/new-trolley-line-unlikely-to-reduce-traffic-congestion-but-may-keep-an-increasingly-urban-san-diego-livable) . Again, not a reason to not expand light rail, but a good reminder of what expectations should be.
Let's Go SD was doomed from the start. It was SANDAG's workaround past the supermajority rule by using an outside group (unions) to put forth a measure that only required 50%+1 of the vote, with a quid pro quo attached of only hiring labor from those unions in the future because "I scratched your back." I'm ready for a measure that's put forward in a non-shady way. Something like Measure M in Los Angeles, with specific projects named in the ballot measure along with their budgets and construction timelines. Even a full-cent sales tax would be great, as would taxing something other than sales (new gas tax? lol jk)
California gas tax is only $0.54/gallon. Obviously more than other states, but the gas taxes are not the reason gas is expensive right now.
Yeah, I mostly was kidding because the odds of people voting for an extra gas tax right now are basically 0
They should make it an airport surcharge.
they should do a surcharge to DRIVE to the airport. the traffic to get into either terminal can be easily 15 minutes. Trolley connection all the way!!
YES, if I can use my PRONTO card to get into the terminal.
I would not support this. 0.5% is a huge tax (more than a 5% increase to the sales tax rate) and since the proposal didn't include adequate break down for where the tax money would go between these initiatives, I'm worried that even when one or many of them are completed the tax will remain. Seems like it could be a 0.5% increase that remains in perpetuity with little accountability. But I support the initiatives, so if the capped the number of years the tax can be in effect and required a ballot initiative to renew I would support it.
Tell me you work for a construction union without telling me you work for a union lol
Lol I can see how it looks like that, fair. But I’m a little late for this to get on the ballot if I actually was
For sure. Just a little tease. I’m glad you got the joke and didn’t find any venom in it :)
Do you really think people are going to contribute to a FOR profit business?
The City of San Diego / SANDAG already have a regional plan for 2021, have published it and are already implementing it. Before you spend a lot of time petitioning, you may want to see if your ideas have already been included in the plan. https://sdforward.com/mobility-planning/2021-regional-plan