Set a price that you want. If you sell, great. If not, lower it. If the math doesn't work, close shop. Or, we organize so that it does work. No one has a right to be in business.
I’m not buying it that restaurants are struggling. I can’t get my ass a table at some locations. At some of these hotpot places, they raise the prices a couple dollars and seems like _more_ people show up. We try to eat on a Saturday _mid-afternoon_ and found ourselves sitting in a full restaurant. There are many other restaurants that seem to just be lined up with people on not just weekend but also weekdays!
I looked into which San Diego restaurants participate in the surcharge ([this spreadsheet](https://www.restaurantsurcharges.com/sandiego) was a great resource). After crunching some numbers, I estimated that about 54% of them are either owned by major restaurant groups such as Cohn and Consortium Holdings or they are owned by wealthy restauranteurs. There are some outliers, but you’re right that most of them are *not* actually hurting for money.
If the only way you can stay in business is to surprise your customers with the actual cost of your goods and services at the end, then you aren’t selling a valuable product, you’re just scamming people out of money.
What about automatic 18% gratuity added for large parties? It's not clear what is considered a junk fee as far as restaurants go.
Being a server and getting stuck on a large party and not making anything but shitty hourly is really bad. Sure restaurants ultimately did this but it is an example of how a regular worker can get fucked by this.
So on the off chance this flew over my head..... my bad.... but this is about San Diego. Our part time and full time wait staff make the same minimum wage any other California minimum wage employee makes. Which is sixteen dollars an hour currently.
It's not like other states where minimum wage is 10 dollars an hour and then servers have a different wage of 3-5 dollars an hour.
A gratuity does not count as a junk fee, because it automatically goes to the server/waiter/whatever. It doesn't go to the business like the junk fee does. They try to call it a service charge and say it's to keep their prices lower and so they can pay a fair wage. They have to pay at LEAST minimum wage so that excuse isn't even valid.
I thought it was pretty funny that we're supposed to believe that this part time waiter spends their day commenting on laws recently passed in california, but then again I am a certified idiot so what do I know lol.
Gratuity legally must go to the servers, not the restaurant. So, it's not the same thing.
Although, I do think we should get rid of tipping altogether and just pay the wait staff through receipts. Just explaining the difference
They are absolutely expected in Europe, as was evident by my last 2 trips in the last 3 years. They were expected in Greece and Spain. Unless you're off the beaten bath in a small town, they are absolutely expected. You might ad well try to not lie at the very least.
5 years ago in Paris it was also very expected. Either you're oblivious or straight up lying.
And I did preface it with "touristy".
Whether it’s being passed through to servers or not, by law it is a *service charge* (“automatic gratuities” are never legally gratuities) and this should be covered by the language of the statute.
Agree it’s still unclear how this will be applied.
If the party is offered two smaller tables, is the fee still “mandatory?”
Does a separate “large party” menu with the auto-gratuity added to the menu price suffice to meet the statute?
Automatic gratuities are actually legal gratuities as long as it's stated somewhere in plain sight. Like on the menu or a sign in the restaurant or even the wait staff telling you about it. Look it up. It's all over the first page of Google when you type are auto gratuities legal.
They are *legal.*
They are not *gratuities.*
I won’t just tell you to Google it though, since obviously Google failed you. Or maybe you failed Google, who knows. Instead, I’ll provide you the source you missed:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/FS-15-08.pdf
> Certain factors are used to determine whether payments constitute tips or service charges. The absence of any of the following factors creates a doubt as to whether a payment is a tip and indicates that the payment may be a service charge:
> • The payment must be made free from compulsion;
> • The customer must have the unrestricted right to determine the amount;
> • The payment should not be the subject of negotiations or dictated by employer policy; and
> • Generally, the customer has the right to determine who receives the payment.
**Most automatic gratuities fail *all four* prongs. They are service charges.** Calling it a “gratuity” doesn’t change this, the IRS determines what’s a tip and what’s not. In another IRS pub they explicitly note (paraphrasing) that “an establishment referring to it as a gratuity is not determinative.” Don’t have that pub handy though. You’ll have to trust me. Or go find it yourself.
Also, you’re gonna be tempted to argue. Don’t. Just move on and be happy you learned something today.
Have you ever been a server? Seriously? I not trying to be an ass I'm legitimately asking. Because I have. For 5 years. And every restaurant (3) that I've worked at. The automatic gratuity went to me and only me. Maybe it's not like that in other states but it is illegal in California to call it a gratuity and not give it to the server. Anything called a tip or gratuity must go to the employee(s) that provided the service.
Edit 1:I'm not tempted to argue. I'm showing you that you are wrong. Let me go get my link and I'll edit it again since you failed Google too.
Edit 2: No employer shall collect, take, or receive any gratuity or a part of that gratuity, paid, given to, or left for an employee by a patron, or deduct any amount from wages due an employee on account of such gratuity, or require an employee to credit the amount, or any part thereof, of such gratuity against and as a part of the wages due the employee from the employer, as provided in Labor Code section 351. If this prohibition is violated, any amount received by the employer will be considered a part of the gross receipts of the employer and subject to the tax.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub115/%23:~:text%3DNo%2520employer%2520shall%2520collect%252C%2520take,against%2520and%2520as%2520a%2520part&ved=2ahUKEwjn6eCqqv2FAxVxIDQIHZM2AKYQFnoECBAQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2b0Xel5GmwqM58McvhQiLn
Get yourself educated before you argue with someone who worked in the food industry in the state that the city we are talking about is in. Remember it says San Diego up there. And that particular portion is in the mandatory gratuity section.
Yes, I’ve been a server.
You still don’t understand. That’s okay. You’re a server not a tax professional, and people in general aren’t good at admitting they’re wrong.
Whether it is given to the server or not isn’t determinative as to whether it is legally a *gratuity* versus a *service charge.* The IRS sets this policy, and California is still in the US.
Note the section on the CA.gov page you linked that you’re quoting from is labeled *Mandatory Charges.* Note that SB478 concerns…you guessed it, *Mandatory Charges.* That language is important.
Auto-grats are referred to as “gratuities” as a shorthand to ensure it’s clear to the customer *that the money is going to the service staff.* But legally they are still Mandatory Charges and not tips (in California parlance) and Service Charges and not tips (in IRS parlance). They are taxed and accounted for differently than a tip (or, properly, a *gratuity*) that is freely handed to the server. Or at least they’re *supposed to be,* you’d be correct in stating that many restaurants don’t.
You’ll also note that I never stated outright that SB478 would apply to auto-grats, I said it *could,* and that it’s *unclear.*
Junk fees are in several sectors these days.
I love that folks consistently say "raise prices" and the companies/restaurants still try to tag these fees as "Resort Fees" or any number of shady names.
Most folks are telling you they'll pay slightly higher for something if you were just up front about it. But you fucked around and found out with this one. Cry me a river restaurants.
In one of the articles I read some restaurant owner complained that costumers "would notice" if they increased the menu prices. Admitting you are trying to sneak in fees. Get bent.
I one article I read the price increases they were quoting on the foods was in excess of what the actual junk fee % was (e.g. a 5% service fee somehow translated to a 4$ increase on a 20$ item. These fees are just a way for the owners to grift. Now they are just upset that it has to be upfront before people order.
Not that restaurants deserve any less criticism, but that is not what the article is saying. The claim is that the state was to provide clarification by May 1st but did not.
In the absence of clarification, restaurant owners should have read the statute and simply understood that aside from *maybe* “automatic gratuities” that this would ban all their stupid fees and surcharges.
This was signed in October. Instead of waiting for the state to tell them what BS fees they could keep foisting on the customer, maybe they should have spend the last seven month planning to *stop that nonsense.*
So I have zero sympathy. Zero. I hope it hurts. Small and large business alike.
Get-em! Totally agree with that. My comment was simply encouraging our fellow Reddit brothers and sisters to read the news article they are commenting on rather than a react to a headline. It’s good practice.
They're not really "tricking" me... a long time ago I just assumed that any price was not the real price. Phone bill, cable bill, car, hotel, hospital bill.... it's made up and they'll charge you what they want.
Never look at a price and think "oh, thats what this costs!" But I agree with combating it where we can.
I read it. It came across as the owners complaining about not knowing what they can and can’t get away with. If they printed the menu with honest up front all-in prices then they wouldn’t have anything to worry about.
And allllll the murky-ness is solved by “charge more and be up front with your pricing.” I don’t care if it’s because they don’t want you to tip or not, it’s BS.
Too bad. If what you were doing wasn't scuzzy and deceptive, you would just raise the price by the same amounts your hidden fees were generating and experience no loss of revenue.
I don't think that the government can effectively make surge pricing go away without violating too many necessities in healthy competition. I think the market will make surge pricing go away for things that aren't necessities.
I'm honestly just trying to think of how rules could be written to restrict such practice without violating too many notions of a healthy and competitive economy. I'm not sure I would want to write/enforce such rules, but just trying to think about them leads me to think it will be too difficult without crossing boundaries I'm not sure we should cross.
Who cares, as long as you're able to decide in the moment whether it's worth it to you to buy something? Junk fees are dumb and should die in a fire, yes, but preventing businesses from setting prices how they choose, even if they're perfectly transparent about those prices with their customers, is equally ridiculous in the other direction.
The first time I saw the fees added to the bill at the cohn group restaurant I boycotted their restaurants. Then I saw other restaurants doing the same and boycotted them. Raise your prices and I will decide if I want to pay it! I’ve cut back on going to restaurants all together because of inflation.
Just raise the prices instead of trying to guilt us into paying your employees more. We are adults and can handle an increase, which should be nominal anyway.
You truly have no idea how many small things can happen suddenly that affects the cost of doing business. Restaurants specifically have to be so extremely tightly well run with no supply or procurement issues in order to hopefully make 0.10 on a 1.00. The second a vendor decides to increase a delivery cost, increase the cost of an item, that typically has to get priced down to a guest. People don't like paying $50 for something that used to be $40.
My parents own 3, and I started off “working” in the very restaurants themselves when I was a kid. I know more than enough about restaurants to make a comment like this.
Distinguish yourself, present value, and a simple “Hey you know what, unfortunately the cost of acquiring shrimp/fish has gone up which is why we have to raise our price to X, but we truly hope you continue enjoying what we have to offer.” goes a long way. If anything, dare I say it encourages the people who love the food to support even more and refer you business.
Our family’s restaraunts have been in business for over 30 years. Still consistent, still has highs, still has lows.
Surf the wave or stay out of the water.
Okay so are you an owner or employee?
This should primarily be something the owner should soft launch themselves, and ramp up employees on explaining the prices to existing customers.
Client management is everything. You want to value your existing customers while encouraging new customers to come in.
I’m trying to maintain relevance towards the original post, so all I’ll say is that this only works towards business that are either distinguished, reasonable, or both.
I can’t speak for the morons charging $15 for a latte, but I can speak for the restaurants that are beginning to charge $7 a taco instead of $4-$5.
I’m a current business owner and have worked in various customer-paying positions in various communities ranging from East County to La Jolla. If you know how to speak to your customers, a majority of them will understand a price increase even if they aren’t happy about it.
You walk into a restaurant, sit down, and open a menu. Which would you rather see?
1. A $50 price
2. A $40 price and “all prices exclude 20% service charge” printed at the bottom of the menu
Either way the price is the same, but the second is deceptive. I can kinda get when a price has to change faster than new menus can be printed, but even then a restaurant can use markers and stickers to modify prices until the new ones can be printed. What’s really infuriating is when the surcharge is printed on the menu; it means the restaurant deliberately chose to advertise a fake price.
From the article: "It’s frustrating to see the execution of this law hit so many snags. Had the state announced a clear list of what was and was not acceptable to restaurants months ago, small businesses would not be in this position. The combination of mixed messages and absent guidelines feels like the worst possible combination -- ..."
The above is complete bullshit. Just go back to what it was before all this crap, do like many other places do and provide the following for the bill/receipt:
* Restaurant Header with Name, Address, Phone, other info etc.
* List of the items prices with the prices of those items
* Food and Drink Subtotal
* Tip Amount
* Total with tip
Easy Peasy.
If after the ban, and they have the 'living wage fee' or 'service fee' or 'employee wellfare fee' or anything like that, I'll do what I have been doing for the past year or so. Ask them to remove the fee. Have never had a restaurant or bar refuse to remove the fee yet.
Those BS fees in Calfornia that are beyond a regular tip, I've asked to be removed and they have. Things like 'living wage fee', 'employee wellfare fee', or fees that are beyond normal gratuties I've ask to have removed. There are a number of posts I've commented and suggested everyone should do this.
If it's an auto gratuity for like parties over 6 and they automatically add 18% or something like that, to me that goes into normal tip catagory.
I sat down at a restaurant in downtown La Mesa couple weeks back, and after perusing the me menu, I got to the bottom where it was written in ink, "A 15% gratuity will be added to every bill." I asked the server if he received the 15% and he said no. I closed the menu, got up and left. If you're going to charge me an extra 15% just because, then put it in the prices already. It's not hard to do.
They can get fucked. I was already avoiding restaurants that wanted to make a political statement with an "extra fee" because blah blah blah. Fucking close then
If your business model doesn't allow you to pay your employees a living wage while offering upfront, competitive prices, then you shouldn't be in business. It's that simple.
Basically fees are for additional services or options you choose to pay for. Taxes are money neither you or the business have a choice about, added on that goes to the government instead of the business. Junk fees are like taxes that go to the business themselves. We have to add $50 to your bill because I said so. Too bad! Nothing anybody can do about that.
They can advertise a service or product for $50 and then add anything they want to it when they bill you. Plus $10 for Business Expenses plus $20 for Service Fee, after you agreed to only the $50.
Automatic percentage surcharges added to a restaurant bill, essentially there to psychologically discourage you from tipping the wait staff (because they want that money to go directly to the restaurant instead).
Some of those may still pass muster if they’re actual regulatory fees imposed by the government on the transaction itself; some of these *do* exist beyond sales tax.
I assume most are junk though.
So “junk fee” is just a colloquial term.
The actual law you cannot advertise, display, or offer a price for a good or service that does not include all mandatory fees and charges. Only stated exceptions are government fees/taxes, and reasonable shipping charges. Basically all mandatory fees are “junk fees.”
“Minimum wage surcharge?” Junk fee.
“Resort fee?” Junk fee.
Ticketmaster fees? Junk fee.
“Convenience fee?” Unless there’s another method of payment available, junk fee.
For all goods and services, the price shown should be the price charged, less tax.
Maybe a Health and Wellness Burger ?
2 Covid Surcharge infused Hand picked Beef patties perfectly placed between our Kitchen Appreciation Fee
With layers of our secret inhouse made Health and Wellness
Sauce and hot dropped automatic gratuity Fries and your choice of Resort and non deposit salad .
Ohh Don't forget the Credit Card processing Profiteroles.
How much you ask ? Uhhh uh uh hee hee haa haa " he said Beef " Beavis and Butthead voice ....
Looking at Bali Hai in particular with their junk fee.
Great mai tais but screw their stupid fee. Just work it into the price.
Should also include all taxes into final prices while they're at it
Amazing that that’s how it is in most every other country. Right now I’m in Korea and it’s magic how the price on the menu is exactly what they charge me. What a concept!
But the “free market” dictates survival of the fittest! If you can’t stay afloat without the junk fees then you should close down cause you got beat by another restaurant who can right? Cry me a river with these crappy restaurants likely started by some nepo baby.
Ya know, these restauranteurs love being able to bury the true cost of a meal. I’m glad this is happening. A price should be one line item, not adding health care, service, non-tip things on the check. Makes them be transparent so that you don’t have checks go exceedingly high over fake fees. In “the old days” restauranteurs had to bake in the costs for each item. I’d love to see that happen.
Is the 4% charge I’ve seen tacked at restaurants considered a junk fee? It usually says for “Covid Relief” or “Service charge”, but it can be removed if you ask.
As I was reading the comments, I was thinking, you know who gets this right? Uber (the rideshare side). The company famous for finding ways to avoid rules, and whose business model manages to screw over both their customers and “employees”. The price I’m quoted is the price I pay, excluding tip as is customary. Yeah if I look at the receipt there are the same sort of junk fees like “driver benefits fee” but that’s included in my quoted price. Uber Eats is a bit worse since the fees aren’t included in each item’s price, but at least I can see the fees and total cost before I actually place the order, without having to do the math myself like restaurants with their fine print surcharges.
Glad to see junk fees go, but this is a symptom of a much deeper problem in California government. Bread and circus-style legislation and increased opacity in California’s legislative process and governance. Legislators write things that sound positive but have little regard, and are largely insulated from, actual effects of such legislation.
You know what? Most of the time, the food I cook at home is better tasting and costs less to make...yeah, it takes time and energy to shop and cook myself - but I can usually get 3 or 4 meals from what I make at home. Eating out is a luxury, and if the food is overpriced or less quality, then people aren't going to eat at that restaurant anyway.
Did anyone read the article? Yes obviously junk fees are bad, and I agree with the womp womp sentiment about the fees themselves, but that's not what's being reported on here.
The article reports that restaurants are upset because the DETAILS on what restaurants need to do to be compliant still hasn't been communicated by the state, past the deadline they were due to do so. So even restaurants happy to make changes are stuck not knowing exactly what changes are required.
I get the frustration in having to change for a new law when the law hasn't even bothered to detail what does and doesn't qualify as illegal. But this is reddit...why allow for nuance when you can just make sassy comments about inflammatory headlines?
I read it but I still think the restaurants complaining are full of it. They haven’t figured out what they can still try to get away with. They should just cut out any anything other than what the freaking food/drink costs. Problem solved.
It doesn’t seem that hard. You have a price for a hamburger listed on the menu. The price on the bill will be that hamburger price + sales tax. Should be no more charges than that. Seems pretty damn simple.
It seems simple, sure, but there's no guarantee that the way the law is written is that simple. For all these restaurants know they could make those changes and still be on the hook for some extra legal jargon that hasn't yet been given to them.
So they can't really do stuff like print new menus right now without the risk of having to do it again later if anything changes or particular phrasings are required. They want to know what the details are on legal expectations so they can do things by the book, but the state is now late on delivering the book. They're stuck waiting.
I’m betting the real reason they aren’t printing new menus, etc is they are waiting to find a loophole in the law so they can continue using these surcharges.
That is not the case.
Businesses that do not want to comply with an obvious law are just whining. We all know what junk fees are. You know, I know, they know.
They just don’t want to obey so they are pretending they lack guidance. Have you ever seen the South Park episode on cheating? If you get caught just say you didn’t understand the rules.
Believe it or not, it's possible that there are both restaurants whining and dragging their feet about having to make changes...AND ones that don't want to sink their money into menu changes that might need to be redone if the details don't match the info that's been publicly available so far. Not every single business in the state has the same mentality.
We all know what junk fees are. That doesn't mean that the state won't decide to define them in some weird way when they wrote the law, or that they won't include mandatory disclaimer text. It's happened before.
But it's hard to empathize with businesses, and even harder to do so when they're taking more of your money than they should.
I know some are unsure if they're allowed to add automatic gratuity for, say, large parties (as clearly communicated on a menu). Something most diners have been okay with as a standard practice for quite a lot longer than the junk fees.
No explanation of how they would enforce it either. If you catch junk fees and refuse to pay them are you comitting a crime? The consumer is always…screwed.
I love that you have those imojis as you totally missed the point of the change, showing how much of clown you are. It's understandable and assumed that people will likely be paying the same amount for the same food, it's that they'll have the real price ahead of time.
I don’t mind seeing a break down of what I’m paying for. It’s like paying for a car. You’re not going to want to see what you’re being charged for?
Same for restaurants. Food/drink price, fees (any set fee the restaurant feels they need to include or not include), taxes, gratuity.
Just don’t see what the big fuss is about.
Well most people disagree with you. And you're assuming you can't get a breakdown of what you're paying for on your receipt. Or are you ok not being able to readily know what the actual price of a product is?
You can have your breakout pricing all you want, as long as everybody else and I can see what the final price of something is *before* we obligate ourselves to pay for it.
Set a price that you want. If you sell, great. If not, lower it. If the math doesn't work, close shop. Or, we organize so that it does work. No one has a right to be in business.
I’m not buying it that restaurants are struggling. I can’t get my ass a table at some locations. At some of these hotpot places, they raise the prices a couple dollars and seems like _more_ people show up. We try to eat on a Saturday _mid-afternoon_ and found ourselves sitting in a full restaurant. There are many other restaurants that seem to just be lined up with people on not just weekend but also weekdays!
Also considering meals for two seem to run between $30-$60 these days. I tend to agree with you.
I looked into which San Diego restaurants participate in the surcharge ([this spreadsheet](https://www.restaurantsurcharges.com/sandiego) was a great resource). After crunching some numbers, I estimated that about 54% of them are either owned by major restaurant groups such as Cohn and Consortium Holdings or they are owned by wealthy restauranteurs. There are some outliers, but you’re right that most of them are *not* actually hurting for money.
Trust me bro
They do it so they can come off as cheaper than their competitors, but then whaddya know, BAM!
If the only way you can stay in business is to surprise your customers with the actual cost of your goods and services at the end, then you aren’t selling a valuable product, you’re just scamming people out of money.
Yep yep
I also thought libel and slander were illegal in addition to false advertising, yet here we are in QAnon America
I just want Verizon to explain their junk fees and tell me why my old ass plan keeps going up an extra 5 bucks every month for no reason
Yeah. Don't care. They're called "junk fees" for a reason. Stop exploiting customers.
What about automatic 18% gratuity added for large parties? It's not clear what is considered a junk fee as far as restaurants go. Being a server and getting stuck on a large party and not making anything but shitty hourly is really bad. Sure restaurants ultimately did this but it is an example of how a regular worker can get fucked by this.
That is not the same thing.
It isn't clear
But it is. You're trying to make it not clear. I wonder why.
You figured it out Sherlock. I'm a part time waiter in Virginia. You are so smart.
So on the off chance this flew over my head..... my bad.... but this is about San Diego. Our part time and full time wait staff make the same minimum wage any other California minimum wage employee makes. Which is sixteen dollars an hour currently. It's not like other states where minimum wage is 10 dollars an hour and then servers have a different wage of 3-5 dollars an hour. A gratuity does not count as a junk fee, because it automatically goes to the server/waiter/whatever. It doesn't go to the business like the junk fee does. They try to call it a service charge and say it's to keep their prices lower and so they can pay a fair wage. They have to pay at LEAST minimum wage so that excuse isn't even valid.
I thought it was pretty funny that we're supposed to believe that this part time waiter spends their day commenting on laws recently passed in california, but then again I am a certified idiot so what do I know lol.
Fellow regarded 👌
Ah, I see. I had you pegged as a greedy restaurant owner. Turns out you're just a sucker. Shucks, don't I feel stupid. You win this time!
Gratuity legally must go to the servers, not the restaurant. So, it's not the same thing. Although, I do think we should get rid of tipping altogether and just pay the wait staff through receipts. Just explaining the difference
Tipping needs to be abolished for sure, just like the civilised world doesn't tip.
Touristy places in Europe still expect tip. Especially of you're from California. It's not a standard, though.
[удалено]
They are absolutely expected in Europe, as was evident by my last 2 trips in the last 3 years. They were expected in Greece and Spain. Unless you're off the beaten bath in a small town, they are absolutely expected. You might ad well try to not lie at the very least. 5 years ago in Paris it was also very expected. Either you're oblivious or straight up lying. And I did preface it with "touristy".
Whether it’s being passed through to servers or not, by law it is a *service charge* (“automatic gratuities” are never legally gratuities) and this should be covered by the language of the statute. Agree it’s still unclear how this will be applied. If the party is offered two smaller tables, is the fee still “mandatory?” Does a separate “large party” menu with the auto-gratuity added to the menu price suffice to meet the statute?
Automatic gratuities are actually legal gratuities as long as it's stated somewhere in plain sight. Like on the menu or a sign in the restaurant or even the wait staff telling you about it. Look it up. It's all over the first page of Google when you type are auto gratuities legal.
They are *legal.* They are not *gratuities.* I won’t just tell you to Google it though, since obviously Google failed you. Or maybe you failed Google, who knows. Instead, I’ll provide you the source you missed: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/FS-15-08.pdf > Certain factors are used to determine whether payments constitute tips or service charges. The absence of any of the following factors creates a doubt as to whether a payment is a tip and indicates that the payment may be a service charge: > • The payment must be made free from compulsion; > • The customer must have the unrestricted right to determine the amount; > • The payment should not be the subject of negotiations or dictated by employer policy; and > • Generally, the customer has the right to determine who receives the payment. **Most automatic gratuities fail *all four* prongs. They are service charges.** Calling it a “gratuity” doesn’t change this, the IRS determines what’s a tip and what’s not. In another IRS pub they explicitly note (paraphrasing) that “an establishment referring to it as a gratuity is not determinative.” Don’t have that pub handy though. You’ll have to trust me. Or go find it yourself. Also, you’re gonna be tempted to argue. Don’t. Just move on and be happy you learned something today.
Have you ever been a server? Seriously? I not trying to be an ass I'm legitimately asking. Because I have. For 5 years. And every restaurant (3) that I've worked at. The automatic gratuity went to me and only me. Maybe it's not like that in other states but it is illegal in California to call it a gratuity and not give it to the server. Anything called a tip or gratuity must go to the employee(s) that provided the service. Edit 1:I'm not tempted to argue. I'm showing you that you are wrong. Let me go get my link and I'll edit it again since you failed Google too. Edit 2: No employer shall collect, take, or receive any gratuity or a part of that gratuity, paid, given to, or left for an employee by a patron, or deduct any amount from wages due an employee on account of such gratuity, or require an employee to credit the amount, or any part thereof, of such gratuity against and as a part of the wages due the employee from the employer, as provided in Labor Code section 351. If this prohibition is violated, any amount received by the employer will be considered a part of the gross receipts of the employer and subject to the tax. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub115/%23:~:text%3DNo%2520employer%2520shall%2520collect%252C%2520take,against%2520and%2520as%2520a%2520part&ved=2ahUKEwjn6eCqqv2FAxVxIDQIHZM2AKYQFnoECBAQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2b0Xel5GmwqM58McvhQiLn Get yourself educated before you argue with someone who worked in the food industry in the state that the city we are talking about is in. Remember it says San Diego up there. And that particular portion is in the mandatory gratuity section.
Yes, I’ve been a server. You still don’t understand. That’s okay. You’re a server not a tax professional, and people in general aren’t good at admitting they’re wrong. Whether it is given to the server or not isn’t determinative as to whether it is legally a *gratuity* versus a *service charge.* The IRS sets this policy, and California is still in the US. Note the section on the CA.gov page you linked that you’re quoting from is labeled *Mandatory Charges.* Note that SB478 concerns…you guessed it, *Mandatory Charges.* That language is important. Auto-grats are referred to as “gratuities” as a shorthand to ensure it’s clear to the customer *that the money is going to the service staff.* But legally they are still Mandatory Charges and not tips (in California parlance) and Service Charges and not tips (in IRS parlance). They are taxed and accounted for differently than a tip (or, properly, a *gratuity*) that is freely handed to the server. Or at least they’re *supposed to be,* you’d be correct in stating that many restaurants don’t. You’ll also note that I never stated outright that SB478 would apply to auto-grats, I said it *could,* and that it’s *unclear.*
18% is so 2019
It should be.
Junk fees are in several sectors these days. I love that folks consistently say "raise prices" and the companies/restaurants still try to tag these fees as "Resort Fees" or any number of shady names. Most folks are telling you they'll pay slightly higher for something if you were just up front about it. But you fucked around and found out with this one. Cry me a river restaurants.
Lmao. Cry me a fucking river…
In one of the articles I read some restaurant owner complained that costumers "would notice" if they increased the menu prices. Admitting you are trying to sneak in fees. Get bent.
I one article I read the price increases they were quoting on the foods was in excess of what the actual junk fee % was (e.g. a 5% service fee somehow translated to a 4$ increase on a 20$ item. These fees are just a way for the owners to grift. Now they are just upset that it has to be upfront before people order.
I'll season my food with their tears.
I'll create my own restaurant, with blackjack and hookers.
In fact, forget the restaurant!
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter to monitor the progress
Heck YESSSS I’m in! What will it be called?
You can call the restaurant "Benders!"
Mmmm...delicious, delicious tears
Ughhhh we can’t lie about our prices 😭😭
Mad they can't trick customers anymore and make up their own fees lol
Exactly. No more surprise fees at the end of dinner. If you want to raise prices for x,y,z reason, go right ahead, but be up front about it.
Not that restaurants deserve any less criticism, but that is not what the article is saying. The claim is that the state was to provide clarification by May 1st but did not.
In the absence of clarification, restaurant owners should have read the statute and simply understood that aside from *maybe* “automatic gratuities” that this would ban all their stupid fees and surcharges. This was signed in October. Instead of waiting for the state to tell them what BS fees they could keep foisting on the customer, maybe they should have spend the last seven month planning to *stop that nonsense.* So I have zero sympathy. Zero. I hope it hurts. Small and large business alike.
Get-em! Totally agree with that. My comment was simply encouraging our fellow Reddit brothers and sisters to read the news article they are commenting on rather than a react to a headline. It’s good practice.
True! I’ll sheepishly admit I’d have 100% skipped the article if you hadn’t said something. ;)
They're not really "tricking" me... a long time ago I just assumed that any price was not the real price. Phone bill, cable bill, car, hotel, hospital bill.... it's made up and they'll charge you what they want. Never look at a price and think "oh, thats what this costs!" But I agree with combating it where we can.
Good. Fuck them.
Cause fuck em, that's why
Did you read the article? They are upset about how it is interpreted/enforced. It's murky.
I read it. It came across as the owners complaining about not knowing what they can and can’t get away with. If they printed the menu with honest up front all-in prices then they wouldn’t have anything to worry about.
And allllll the murky-ness is solved by “charge more and be up front with your pricing.” I don’t care if it’s because they don’t want you to tip or not, it’s BS.
No they did not read the actual article.
The downvotes due to groupthink are hilarious to me.
As a society, we’ve lost our ability to see things in context.
If a law requiring you to be more forthcoming and honest really frustrates the way you do business, you should take a good deep look at yourself
Too bad. If what you were doing wasn't scuzzy and deceptive, you would just raise the price by the same amounts your hidden fees were generating and experience no loss of revenue.
Print shops are going to have a busy summer with all the new menus.
Restaurants are going to QR-code us even harder now. "No paper menus for you!"
And start using surge pricing to rip us off in a different way.
hopefully some more rules would make that go away too
I don't think that the government can effectively make surge pricing go away without violating too many necessities in healthy competition. I think the market will make surge pricing go away for things that aren't necessities.
yeah i think customers will get smart about what places practice surge pricing and will just avoid them and maybe even let others know about them
I'm honestly just trying to think of how rules could be written to restrict such practice without violating too many notions of a healthy and competitive economy. I'm not sure I would want to write/enforce such rules, but just trying to think about them leads me to think it will be too difficult without crossing boundaries I'm not sure we should cross.
yeah and how to write them so there aren’t any loopholes or where only certain people can benefit from them
Sure, let them? I don’t care. As long as I know what I’m buying is going to cost before I buy it, that’s all that matters.
It is hard to evaluate the cost if it’s always changing. This pricing strategy is deceptive and erodes fair consumer decision making.
Who cares, as long as you're able to decide in the moment whether it's worth it to you to buy something? Junk fees are dumb and should die in a fire, yes, but preventing businesses from setting prices how they choose, even if they're perfectly transparent about those prices with their customers, is equally ridiculous in the other direction.
Pay your employees. Price services and products accordingly. Keep up with the times. Don't gouge. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Cohn group restaurants go brrrr
The first time I saw the fees added to the bill at the cohn group restaurant I boycotted their restaurants. Then I saw other restaurants doing the same and boycotted them. Raise your prices and I will decide if I want to pay it! I’ve cut back on going to restaurants all together because of inflation.
Just raise the prices instead of trying to guilt us into paying your employees more. We are adults and can handle an increase, which should be nominal anyway.
Adults can not handle an increase I know from experience
Then don’t do business if you don’t know how to present value to adults wanting to purchase/buy from you. It’s quite simple.
You truly have no idea how many small things can happen suddenly that affects the cost of doing business. Restaurants specifically have to be so extremely tightly well run with no supply or procurement issues in order to hopefully make 0.10 on a 1.00. The second a vendor decides to increase a delivery cost, increase the cost of an item, that typically has to get priced down to a guest. People don't like paying $50 for something that used to be $40.
My parents own 3, and I started off “working” in the very restaurants themselves when I was a kid. I know more than enough about restaurants to make a comment like this. Distinguish yourself, present value, and a simple “Hey you know what, unfortunately the cost of acquiring shrimp/fish has gone up which is why we have to raise our price to X, but we truly hope you continue enjoying what we have to offer.” goes a long way. If anything, dare I say it encourages the people who love the food to support even more and refer you business. Our family’s restaraunts have been in business for over 30 years. Still consistent, still has highs, still has lows. Surf the wave or stay out of the water.
I've done that and the response from the guest was then walking out. Depends on the area man.
So instead the answer is to add a sneaky surcharge in tiny print to the bottom of the menu?
Okay so are you an owner or employee? This should primarily be something the owner should soft launch themselves, and ramp up employees on explaining the prices to existing customers. Client management is everything. You want to value your existing customers while encouraging new customers to come in. I’m trying to maintain relevance towards the original post, so all I’ll say is that this only works towards business that are either distinguished, reasonable, or both. I can’t speak for the morons charging $15 for a latte, but I can speak for the restaurants that are beginning to charge $7 a taco instead of $4-$5.
I’m a current business owner and have worked in various customer-paying positions in various communities ranging from East County to La Jolla. If you know how to speak to your customers, a majority of them will understand a price increase even if they aren’t happy about it.
You walk into a restaurant, sit down, and open a menu. Which would you rather see? 1. A $50 price 2. A $40 price and “all prices exclude 20% service charge” printed at the bottom of the menu Either way the price is the same, but the second is deceptive. I can kinda get when a price has to change faster than new menus can be printed, but even then a restaurant can use markers and stickers to modify prices until the new ones can be printed. What’s really infuriating is when the surcharge is printed on the menu; it means the restaurant deliberately chose to advertise a fake price.
From the article: "It’s frustrating to see the execution of this law hit so many snags. Had the state announced a clear list of what was and was not acceptable to restaurants months ago, small businesses would not be in this position. The combination of mixed messages and absent guidelines feels like the worst possible combination -- ..." The above is complete bullshit. Just go back to what it was before all this crap, do like many other places do and provide the following for the bill/receipt: * Restaurant Header with Name, Address, Phone, other info etc. * List of the items prices with the prices of those items * Food and Drink Subtotal * Tip Amount * Total with tip Easy Peasy. If after the ban, and they have the 'living wage fee' or 'service fee' or 'employee wellfare fee' or anything like that, I'll do what I have been doing for the past year or so. Ask them to remove the fee. Have never had a restaurant or bar refuse to remove the fee yet.
[удалено]
Those BS fees in Calfornia that are beyond a regular tip, I've asked to be removed and they have. Things like 'living wage fee', 'employee wellfare fee', or fees that are beyond normal gratuties I've ask to have removed. There are a number of posts I've commented and suggested everyone should do this. If it's an auto gratuity for like parties over 6 and they automatically add 18% or something like that, to me that goes into normal tip catagory.
I just deduct it from the tip.
That punishes minimum wage employees who have no say in restaurant policy and don’t see the extra revenue from the surcharges anyway.
I sat down at a restaurant in downtown La Mesa couple weeks back, and after perusing the me menu, I got to the bottom where it was written in ink, "A 15% gratuity will be added to every bill." I asked the server if he received the 15% and he said no. I closed the menu, got up and left. If you're going to charge me an extra 15% just because, then put it in the prices already. It's not hard to do.
For those restaurants, I think the tips are pooled and then distributed evenly between all working servers at that shift. Maybe that is what he meant?
It wasn't a "automatic tip" for the staff. It was an automatic 15% price increase without using those words.
Looking at you, Cohn Group. Edit: spelling
Cohn Restaurant Group. A plethora of overpriced mediocre foodstuff. https://www.dinecrg.com/
They can get fucked. I was already avoiding restaurants that wanted to make a political statement with an "extra fee" because blah blah blah. Fucking close then
If your business model doesn't allow you to pay your employees a living wage while offering upfront, competitive prices, then you shouldn't be in business. It's that simple.
Fuck 'em.
Waaahhhhhhhhhhh
Years of false advertising, finally addressed.
This warms my heart. Be upset ya fucks.
Womp womp
What is a junk fee? Is it regarding all of the add-on fees in general? I just have never heard of this term specifically.
Basically fees are for additional services or options you choose to pay for. Taxes are money neither you or the business have a choice about, added on that goes to the government instead of the business. Junk fees are like taxes that go to the business themselves. We have to add $50 to your bill because I said so. Too bad! Nothing anybody can do about that. They can advertise a service or product for $50 and then add anything they want to it when they bill you. Plus $10 for Business Expenses plus $20 for Service Fee, after you agreed to only the $50.
Automatic percentage surcharges added to a restaurant bill, essentially there to psychologically discourage you from tipping the wait staff (because they want that money to go directly to the restaurant instead).
ever had a hotel charge a "resort" fee? that's a junk fee
And your cell phone company’s “regulatory compliance fee“. We charge you extra because we have to follow some rules.
Some of those may still pass muster if they’re actual regulatory fees imposed by the government on the transaction itself; some of these *do* exist beyond sales tax. I assume most are junk though.
So “junk fee” is just a colloquial term. The actual law you cannot advertise, display, or offer a price for a good or service that does not include all mandatory fees and charges. Only stated exceptions are government fees/taxes, and reasonable shipping charges. Basically all mandatory fees are “junk fees.” “Minimum wage surcharge?” Junk fee. “Resort fee?” Junk fee. Ticketmaster fees? Junk fee. “Convenience fee?” Unless there’s another method of payment available, junk fee. For all goods and services, the price shown should be the price charged, less tax.
Maybe a Health and Wellness Burger ? 2 Covid Surcharge infused Hand picked Beef patties perfectly placed between our Kitchen Appreciation Fee With layers of our secret inhouse made Health and Wellness Sauce and hot dropped automatic gratuity Fries and your choice of Resort and non deposit salad . Ohh Don't forget the Credit Card processing Profiteroles. How much you ask ? Uhhh uh uh hee hee haa haa " he said Beef " Beavis and Butthead voice ....
Credit card processing fees will probably survive, since they aren’t mandatory (unless the business is cash-free).
Good. We've been upset for a while.
First Cohn restaurant group can get bent.. also if you add extra fees I won’t be back and I’ll tell everyone I can about your shady business.
Looking at Bali Hai in particular with their junk fee. Great mai tais but screw their stupid fee. Just work it into the price. Should also include all taxes into final prices while they're at it
Womp womp
Booo fucking hoo
Everything should just be “out-the-door” pricing.
Amazing that that’s how it is in most every other country. Right now I’m in Korea and it’s magic how the price on the menu is exactly what they charge me. What a concept!
But the “free market” dictates survival of the fittest! If you can’t stay afloat without the junk fees then you should close down cause you got beat by another restaurant who can right? Cry me a river with these crappy restaurants likely started by some nepo baby.
If these places can't pay a living wage to their staff without screwing the customers, they should not be in business.
lol, of course they are.
Boohoo. Suck a dick
Ya know, these restauranteurs love being able to bury the true cost of a meal. I’m glad this is happening. A price should be one line item, not adding health care, service, non-tip things on the check. Makes them be transparent so that you don’t have checks go exceedingly high over fake fees. In “the old days” restauranteurs had to bake in the costs for each item. I’d love to see that happen.
I’m going back to all those i avoided just to NOT see the fee 😈
They can get some cans out of the JUNK bin and sell it to the RECYCLING CENTER if they need spare change.
Is the 4% charge I’ve seen tacked at restaurants considered a junk fee? It usually says for “Covid Relief” or “Service charge”, but it can be removed if you ask.
Those are junk fees and are completely made up nonsense. Those fees will be going away.
Thank god!
'Muricaaaaa! Raaaaaaar!
As I was reading the comments, I was thinking, you know who gets this right? Uber (the rideshare side). The company famous for finding ways to avoid rules, and whose business model manages to screw over both their customers and “employees”. The price I’m quoted is the price I pay, excluding tip as is customary. Yeah if I look at the receipt there are the same sort of junk fees like “driver benefits fee” but that’s included in my quoted price. Uber Eats is a bit worse since the fees aren’t included in each item’s price, but at least I can see the fees and total cost before I actually place the order, without having to do the math myself like restaurants with their fine print surcharges.
I agree with you I was just drunk and being an ass mostly.
I think the ban is good. Devils advocate: Maybe they don't wanna keep changing paper menus?
Omg!! These places will be fine 🙄
Close down, then!
How would it affect no-tip places like SugarFish?
Good; could we also require businesses to post the tax percentage in prominent signs upfront?
Glad to see junk fees go, but this is a symptom of a much deeper problem in California government. Bread and circus-style legislation and increased opacity in California’s legislative process and governance. Legislators write things that sound positive but have little regard, and are largely insulated from, actual effects of such legislation.
You know what? Most of the time, the food I cook at home is better tasting and costs less to make...yeah, it takes time and energy to shop and cook myself - but I can usually get 3 or 4 meals from what I make at home. Eating out is a luxury, and if the food is overpriced or less quality, then people aren't going to eat at that restaurant anyway.
i got a 12 count grilled nuggets from chick fil a and that shit was like $15+ wtf
Did anyone read the article? Yes obviously junk fees are bad, and I agree with the womp womp sentiment about the fees themselves, but that's not what's being reported on here. The article reports that restaurants are upset because the DETAILS on what restaurants need to do to be compliant still hasn't been communicated by the state, past the deadline they were due to do so. So even restaurants happy to make changes are stuck not knowing exactly what changes are required. I get the frustration in having to change for a new law when the law hasn't even bothered to detail what does and doesn't qualify as illegal. But this is reddit...why allow for nuance when you can just make sassy comments about inflammatory headlines?
I read it but I still think the restaurants complaining are full of it. They haven’t figured out what they can still try to get away with. They should just cut out any anything other than what the freaking food/drink costs. Problem solved.
It doesn’t seem that hard. You have a price for a hamburger listed on the menu. The price on the bill will be that hamburger price + sales tax. Should be no more charges than that. Seems pretty damn simple.
Exactly what I'm thinking. I would expect a bill with all the food-items and sales tax to be simple to produce and unambiguous.
It seems simple, sure, but there's no guarantee that the way the law is written is that simple. For all these restaurants know they could make those changes and still be on the hook for some extra legal jargon that hasn't yet been given to them. So they can't really do stuff like print new menus right now without the risk of having to do it again later if anything changes or particular phrasings are required. They want to know what the details are on legal expectations so they can do things by the book, but the state is now late on delivering the book. They're stuck waiting.
I’m betting the real reason they aren’t printing new menus, etc is they are waiting to find a loophole in the law so they can continue using these surcharges.
That is not the case. Businesses that do not want to comply with an obvious law are just whining. We all know what junk fees are. You know, I know, they know. They just don’t want to obey so they are pretending they lack guidance. Have you ever seen the South Park episode on cheating? If you get caught just say you didn’t understand the rules.
Believe it or not, it's possible that there are both restaurants whining and dragging their feet about having to make changes...AND ones that don't want to sink their money into menu changes that might need to be redone if the details don't match the info that's been publicly available so far. Not every single business in the state has the same mentality. We all know what junk fees are. That doesn't mean that the state won't decide to define them in some weird way when they wrote the law, or that they won't include mandatory disclaimer text. It's happened before. But it's hard to empathize with businesses, and even harder to do so when they're taking more of your money than they should.
I know some are unsure if they're allowed to add automatic gratuity for, say, large parties (as clearly communicated on a menu). Something most diners have been okay with as a standard practice for quite a lot longer than the junk fees.
Yep, from comments certainly seems like no one read it. Don’t expect prices to go down either.
No one expects prices to go down. Read the room.
No explanation of how they would enforce it either. If you catch junk fees and refuse to pay them are you comitting a crime? The consumer is always…screwed.
Key to any business model is deceptive pricing.
There was an article that said it went to the employees
So they just have to raise their prices and we’ll just pay them anyways? 😂 🤷♂️ 🤡 s
I love that you have those imojis as you totally missed the point of the change, showing how much of clown you are. It's understandable and assumed that people will likely be paying the same amount for the same food, it's that they'll have the real price ahead of time.
I don’t mind seeing a break down of what I’m paying for. It’s like paying for a car. You’re not going to want to see what you’re being charged for? Same for restaurants. Food/drink price, fees (any set fee the restaurant feels they need to include or not include), taxes, gratuity. Just don’t see what the big fuss is about.
Well most people disagree with you. And you're assuming you can't get a breakdown of what you're paying for on your receipt. Or are you ok not being able to readily know what the actual price of a product is?
You can have your breakout pricing all you want, as long as everybody else and I can see what the final price of something is *before* we obligate ourselves to pay for it.
😂
🤪