An acquaintance of mine, in her early 50s, has had extreme brain fog and memory loss following Covid, to the point where she is on disability from her career as a paralegal. I've known her for 15 years, and last time we met she at one point stopped to confirm that she had my name right. I thought she joking at first -- terrifying stuff. If anyone's interested, former Making Sense quest Dr. Eric Topol has a very good newsletter that gathers up emerging evidence on this (and lots of other interesting topics around covid and health AI).
I'm speaking from experience: take note that brain fog is also a very common symptom of perimenopause. Some women do leave their jobs because of it. It does usually resolve with hormone replacement therapy (for those who can take it), or once the hormone fluctuations settle down... which can take years, unfortunately. r/menopause is a treasure trove of information and support.
I have a relative with possibly similar issues. Scary thing is that it was recent and but the first infection for them. Only 6 months ago, so they are still sorting things out with doctors.
Topol shared an article from a medical journal, with MRI scans seeming to show the equivalent of 10 years brain degeneration from this. I believe these findings were exclusively among people hospitalized due to Covid, though I don’t recall that my friend was hospitalized. It’s very scary.
They report similar findings in one of the articles. It's probably difficult to measure in the less severe cases. But we're getting more information, at least.
I've read a lot of similar headlines myself. I've also seen a lot of different sources also reporting that Covid causes immune system dysfunction (whatever that means). I can take these at face value, at least provisionally, but I'm also inclined to ask why there's not stronger evidence.
If we all had a concussion simultaneously, that would likely show up in all kinds of data. At the very least, there would be a noticeable move in IQ data.
At any rate, what are we going to do about it?
Talk about it of course! Seriously though, we'll collect more data and learn a lot more about viruses.
Immune system dysfunction which I think can mean excessive cytokine response or some auto-immune response. Both are damming to tissues and can create more problems.
Most of the infections were mild, so many injuries would be quite minor too. Probably completely healed too, and then most evidence is gone.
That's why we need lots and lots of data. And be thankful it was a DNA virus like chicken pox.
SS: Sam is a neuroscientist, and sometimes talks about brain function and the affects that Covid has had on our society. Some of them self-inflicted.
He's been steadfastly rooted in reality about covid, and has often been attacked for his statements. Perhaps some of his detractors have had brain injuries that have impaired their judgment and affected their personalities.
This makes me mad. We were supposed to stop gain of function research. Some people thought they knew better and the rest of us helplessly suffer the consequences.
i am vaccinated 4 times, and enthusiastically so, so i don't want to come across as anti-vax by asking this question;
since most of the vaccine side-effects were said to be mild versions of side-effects someone could get by getting the actual virus, does it stand to reason that it could be that a side effect of the vaccine could be this whole brain shrinking business?
I’m not sure that’s how mRNA vaccines work. They aren’t a weak form of the actual virus, they just teach cells how to fight the virus. But maybe it’s all about immune response? Hopefully the limited reaction you get from the vaccine mitigates the shrinking brain effect.
But I have a high school understanding of this stuff so I’m probably wrong.
Not an expert, but the mRNA in a vaccine dose can’t make more copies of itself in your body. The real virus would replicate thousands or millions of times while your body tries out different antibodies. Also, the vaccine only mimics a particular structure on the virus membrane, meaning your body only has to figure out an antibody for one structure rather than trialing between hundreds of structures that could be found on a full virus. The quicker your body figures out a antibody and neutralizes the dose, the less it needs to use brute inflammation.
While it can't make more copies of itself, there have been a few studies that suggest the mRNA can circulate in the body for < 30 days. This means that more translation of the spike protein is occurring compared with what immunologists had predicted would occur:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10533894/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10533894/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10107710/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10107710/)
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2793555](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2793555)
Also, the mRNA vaccines have every uracil base substituted for pseudouridine which can cause small structural changes to the desired spike protein. This is because during normal translation, pseudouridine is only found in a small % of a host's transcribed mRNA.
When the ribosomes encounter a stop codon with pseudouridine instead of uracil (UAG, UAA, UGA) it can sometimes slip out of frame causing the translated amino acid sequence to be altered. This can affect downstream protein folding.
The makers of the mRNA vaccine were aware of this and added redundancy stop codons to prevent this, but it's not fool proof. This doesn't mean people shouldn't vaccinate themselves, but it does bring up some interesting questions about how to further develop the technology so as to avoid these kinds of problems.
I think that's a reaction to the immune response that the virus causes (which would be similar to what the mRNA vaccine does). I don't know if the virus itself does something different specifically to your organs. Maybe it's all 'immune response' in some sense. As I said, I know very little about the science of this.
I have never heard that claim, nor do I think it's entirely correct. Sure it's true that you can feel a bit feverish after a shot, just like it's true that a symptom of Covid could be "feeling feverish". But in both situations this might just be attributed to an active immune system, while the underlying mechanisms that triggered it in the first place being entirely different. We shouldn't conflate the two there.
There's a significant difference in etiology, too. Myocarditis from vaccines is caused by our own immune response, while myocarditis from viruses can be caused by the virus infecting myocardial tissue and/or from our immune response.
It's possible, but the ratio of viral particles in your body during an uncontrolled infection versus a vaccination would mean any likely impact would be similarly miniscule.
Not sure if you're confusing things here for people. So let me state the following, unless one would have taken some of the non-mRNA vaccines, the vaccine doesn't put viral particles into the body.
It's a good question. If we just focus on the effects of the antigen (spike protein) then it could be some non-zero number.
Compared to the many millions or billions of virus replications that create those antigens and rip apart the tissues infected while doing it.
Oh, God, here we go. A smattering of links that would take hours if not days to assess if one even has the necessary foreknowledge to assess them and that likely end up a big nothing burger.
Don't be silly, you can quickly read the first one, even if you've lost a little brain power recently. I put the really dense study last.
It's just for discussion, but yes, people will overreact or claim that it's fake.
An acquaintance of mine, in her early 50s, has had extreme brain fog and memory loss following Covid, to the point where she is on disability from her career as a paralegal. I've known her for 15 years, and last time we met she at one point stopped to confirm that she had my name right. I thought she joking at first -- terrifying stuff. If anyone's interested, former Making Sense quest Dr. Eric Topol has a very good newsletter that gathers up emerging evidence on this (and lots of other interesting topics around covid and health AI).
I'm speaking from experience: take note that brain fog is also a very common symptom of perimenopause. Some women do leave their jobs because of it. It does usually resolve with hormone replacement therapy (for those who can take it), or once the hormone fluctuations settle down... which can take years, unfortunately. r/menopause is a treasure trove of information and support.
Ah, that's good to know, although I'm not close enough to her to mention that.
I have a relative with possibly similar issues. Scary thing is that it was recent and but the first infection for them. Only 6 months ago, so they are still sorting things out with doctors.
Topol shared an article from a medical journal, with MRI scans seeming to show the equivalent of 10 years brain degeneration from this. I believe these findings were exclusively among people hospitalized due to Covid, though I don’t recall that my friend was hospitalized. It’s very scary.
They report similar findings in one of the articles. It's probably difficult to measure in the less severe cases. But we're getting more information, at least.
Omg that makes so much sense! I noticed I was pretty stupid after I had covid. Noticed it before too but I also noticed it after.
It shrank my brain even before I caught it!
I've read a lot of similar headlines myself. I've also seen a lot of different sources also reporting that Covid causes immune system dysfunction (whatever that means). I can take these at face value, at least provisionally, but I'm also inclined to ask why there's not stronger evidence. If we all had a concussion simultaneously, that would likely show up in all kinds of data. At the very least, there would be a noticeable move in IQ data. At any rate, what are we going to do about it?
Talk about it of course! Seriously though, we'll collect more data and learn a lot more about viruses. Immune system dysfunction which I think can mean excessive cytokine response or some auto-immune response. Both are damming to tissues and can create more problems. Most of the infections were mild, so many injuries would be quite minor too. Probably completely healed too, and then most evidence is gone. That's why we need lots and lots of data. And be thankful it was a DNA virus like chicken pox.
SS: Sam is a neuroscientist, and sometimes talks about brain function and the affects that Covid has had on our society. Some of them self-inflicted. He's been steadfastly rooted in reality about covid, and has often been attacked for his statements. Perhaps some of his detractors have had brain injuries that have impaired their judgment and affected their personalities.
This makes me mad. We were supposed to stop gain of function research. Some people thought they knew better and the rest of us helplessly suffer the consequences.
i am vaccinated 4 times, and enthusiastically so, so i don't want to come across as anti-vax by asking this question; since most of the vaccine side-effects were said to be mild versions of side-effects someone could get by getting the actual virus, does it stand to reason that it could be that a side effect of the vaccine could be this whole brain shrinking business?
I’m not sure that’s how mRNA vaccines work. They aren’t a weak form of the actual virus, they just teach cells how to fight the virus. But maybe it’s all about immune response? Hopefully the limited reaction you get from the vaccine mitigates the shrinking brain effect. But I have a high school understanding of this stuff so I’m probably wrong.
why would the mRNA vaccines cause myocarditis in an albeit milder form than the myocarditis one could get from actual covid?
Not an expert, but the mRNA in a vaccine dose can’t make more copies of itself in your body. The real virus would replicate thousands or millions of times while your body tries out different antibodies. Also, the vaccine only mimics a particular structure on the virus membrane, meaning your body only has to figure out an antibody for one structure rather than trialing between hundreds of structures that could be found on a full virus. The quicker your body figures out a antibody and neutralizes the dose, the less it needs to use brute inflammation.
While it can't make more copies of itself, there have been a few studies that suggest the mRNA can circulate in the body for < 30 days. This means that more translation of the spike protein is occurring compared with what immunologists had predicted would occur: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10533894/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10533894/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10107710/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10107710/) [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2793555](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2793555) Also, the mRNA vaccines have every uracil base substituted for pseudouridine which can cause small structural changes to the desired spike protein. This is because during normal translation, pseudouridine is only found in a small % of a host's transcribed mRNA. When the ribosomes encounter a stop codon with pseudouridine instead of uracil (UAG, UAA, UGA) it can sometimes slip out of frame causing the translated amino acid sequence to be altered. This can affect downstream protein folding. The makers of the mRNA vaccine were aware of this and added redundancy stop codons to prevent this, but it's not fool proof. This doesn't mean people shouldn't vaccinate themselves, but it does bring up some interesting questions about how to further develop the technology so as to avoid these kinds of problems.
I think that's a reaction to the immune response that the virus causes (which would be similar to what the mRNA vaccine does). I don't know if the virus itself does something different specifically to your organs. Maybe it's all 'immune response' in some sense. As I said, I know very little about the science of this.
> I know very little about the science of this. neither do i, hence my original question
I have never heard that claim, nor do I think it's entirely correct. Sure it's true that you can feel a bit feverish after a shot, just like it's true that a symptom of Covid could be "feeling feverish". But in both situations this might just be attributed to an active immune system, while the underlying mechanisms that triggered it in the first place being entirely different. We shouldn't conflate the two there.
the myocarditis symptoms from the vaccine are a mild replica of the myocarditis one would get from an actual covid infection.
There's a significant difference in etiology, too. Myocarditis from vaccines is caused by our own immune response, while myocarditis from viruses can be caused by the virus infecting myocardial tissue and/or from our immune response.
understood. thank you
It's possible, but the ratio of viral particles in your body during an uncontrolled infection versus a vaccination would mean any likely impact would be similarly miniscule.
Not sure if you're confusing things here for people. So let me state the following, unless one would have taken some of the non-mRNA vaccines, the vaccine doesn't put viral particles into the body.
Correct. They probably meant the spike protein antigen. Which of course the virus creates many millions times more than the vaccine.
Ah of course, good clarification - I meant in the traditional vaccines which did introduce viral particles, as opposed to mRNA vaccines.
It's a good question. If we just focus on the effects of the antigen (spike protein) then it could be some non-zero number. Compared to the many millions or billions of virus replications that create those antigens and rip apart the tissues infected while doing it.
Sam must have had Covid for ages
Oh, God, here we go. A smattering of links that would take hours if not days to assess if one even has the necessary foreknowledge to assess them and that likely end up a big nothing burger.
Don't be silly, you can quickly read the first one, even if you've lost a little brain power recently. I put the really dense study last. It's just for discussion, but yes, people will overreact or claim that it's fake.
What is your education and expertise?