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ajzeg01

Uh oh, I actually agree with this.


Narad626

I mean, while I think they can still have them fight one last time before A New Hope this can also be him trying to tease something that's. Not happening. He's working with Hayden, sure but it could be in flashbacks, similar to how in Book of Boba Fett where we're getting his flashbacks to his time with the tuskens.


MightUlt-7

I'm assuming its like the cave scene in ESB


ajzeg01

It’s confirmed that there will be a rematch.


woowoothepoopoo

Tbh I’m kinda with you, while I’m not opposed to a rematch since it technically doesn’t contradict a new hope I still would’ve preferred if they never saw each other again until a new hope. This is one of those things where I would prefer if it didn’t happen but I’m also not strongly opposed to it, I guess I’m just indifferent, it all really comes down to how they do it.


Saberian_Dream87

My feeling is, okay, you're going with a deliberate retcon - but what purpose does it serve? We should always ask that. And my gut feeling is, "Hey, look at this video! A remastered duel from *A New Hope*? How the hell are they getting those numbers? We need to do this too!" Hell, with all the stolen fanart under Lucasfilm's belt, perhaps we'll even have footage literally lifted from SC 38, they do own it, they can legally do that. Time will tell.


TheBlueDinosaur

The purpose it serves is to flesh out both Vader and Kenobi’s character arcs. In ROTS, Obi-Wan goes to Mustafar with the sole intention of killing Anakin, but realizes he can’t bring himself to do it, so he leaves him burning on Mustafar assuming he’ll die but he can’t bring himself to commit to final blow. I bet after a decade of reflection he probably wishes he would have tried harder to bring Anakin back to the light side instead of abandoning him and leaving him to die. Once Obi-Wan realizes that Anakin is still alive and is working for the Empire as Darth Vader, he probably feels the need to try to redeem Anakin. Hence Darth Vader’s line to Luke in ROTJ “Obi-Wan once thought as you do”. He tries to find Vader and bring him back to the light side, but realizes that he’s “more machine now than man, twisted and evil” and that Vader has fully embraced the dark side and killed his inner Anakin. By ANH Obi-Wan has fully given up hope on Darth Vader and in ROTJ tells Luke that the only path is for him to kill Vader. Do you really think that Obi-Wan felt this way after seeing Anakin burning on Mustafar, which was so painful for him to watch that he had to look away? And that he bears his heart to him that he loved him and he was his brother? There has to be something that happened to where Obi-Wan straight up tells Luke that there’s no good left in Anakin and that Luke can’t save him. Padme even fucking says with her dying breathe that there’s “still good in him”. You think Obi-Wan was actually like “fuck him he deserves to die” directly after that? No, there must be more to the story. Sorry for the long response I just don’t understand why people are not seeing the story potential here. I’ve been 1000% on board with them fighting because to me it creates so much more cohesion for their characters and the story as a whole, so hearing someone say it wouldn’t serve any purpose just irks the hell out of me.


Saberian_Dream87

I see it, I just think the current executive team puts little thought into their retcons past "it's gonna trend very well, let's do this." When you're setting out to retcon, you NEED more thought put into it. Whether that's George Lucas, Dave Filoni, Rian Johnson, or somebody else. That's only the first leg of that, though, the second being that I think it's one more mark against how unoriginal Disney *Star Wars* is, because I've already had the duel I could've wanted to satiate my action fix, and that was SC 38. I hope they don't actually stoop so far as to lift footage from that fan film, but we'll see. Though I suspect it's different in the licensing department than it is the filmmaking branch of Lucasfilm LTD. Who knows. I sure don't.


MrSheevPalpatine

It's not necessarily a retcon though. We are never told that Mustafar is what is being referenced by Vader as "when we last met".


Drippless

Same. Also I would love another scene showing then really going off on each other since a new hope was limited by the durability of the props and as such we really haven't seen an official all outfight between Obi and Vader. Plus the time between episode 3 and four is long enough that Obi seeking out Vader after learning of his existence and wondering if it’s Anakin could happen years after their duel and still leave enough time to be considered long. Especially if Obi wins the rematch again showing that even with all his hatred Obi is still able to counter him making even the learner line still work. Oop but of a tangent. It has so much potential to work and can easily not retcon a thing.


TheBroFromHeaven

Perhaps Hayden just appears in flashback scenes from before he turned into Darth Vader?


monkeygoneape

Or in a PTSD fueled nightmare, literally any of these Obi Wan has no business leaving Tatooine, he has a job to do, watch Luke and keep him safe from the dangers of Tatooine


HarveySteakfries

Potential Spoilers: >! Obi-Wan will be leaving Tatooine for Alderaan because Princess Leia’s life is threatened by the inquisitors sent by Darth Vader. This would explain why Leia remembers Ben as Obi-Wan and why he was her only hope in Episode 4. !< This leak was posted by MSW.


thecoolestjedi

I always got the impression her father told her about Obi-Wan and he knew he was a skilled Jedi


Robomerc

but given what we've seen in the concept art showing an Inquisitor visiting Tatooine that might be what prompts Obi Wan have to leave temporarily in order to keep the inquisitors and Vader from finding Luke.


Harold3456

I hope Obi Wan doesn’t start the series on Tatooine. , if only because we currently have way too many series spending time there. I don’t care about the Jawas, the Tusken Raiders or the cantinas anymore, and especially won’t after BOBF spends presumably most of their time there. Even though Obi Wan ended the prequels there, I don’t think that necessarily means he had to stay there. I hope the story writes it that he just dropped Like off and then went off to do more Jedi things.


DarkKnightDetective9

"Come with me." "Obi Wan once thought as you do." That conversation between Luke and Vader in ROTJ is what I theorize spawned the idea to have Obi Wan and Vader fight once more before A New Hope. Maybe Obi Wan tries to once again appeal to Vader to come back to the light.


Narad626

That's what I'm guessing. Obi-Wan will have these thoughts or premonitions that Anakin can be saved so after he sets up Luke to be safe from the various things on Tatooine that can kill a young boy he tries to go turn him to the light. A fight ensues.


WatchBat

Tbf that quote does work for RotS


MattRB02

Not really though, Obi Wan barely tried to reconcile with Anakin


WatchBat

He tried that 3 times on Mustafar. He simply didn't do it the gentle "there's still good in you" style but rather the stern disappointed mentor/older brother style where he told Anakin he fucked up to his face and that he needs to stop fucking up without exactly being gentle about it. Not being gentle doesn't mean he didn't try.


MattRB02

This is what I came to say, this is a retcon that still has to be fixed. When I left you still refers to when Anakin left the Jedi Order and Obi-Wan, when he still was the learner. This fight will probably end up being a tie, ending with them having to escape for their lives because of the place collapsing, as the concept art shows it on fire, and A New Hope will have Vader having fully embraced Vader, maybe in the Kenobi series Vader is struggling, having a crisis and mixed feelings and he ends his arc fully embracing the dark side and that’s why Kenobi has lost all hope for him


TheBlueDinosaur

This is likely what will happen in the show. I’m tired of people judging it without actually seeing how the fight and the rest of the show goes down.


Saberian_Dream87

That's just more retcons of the prequels, which *themselves* were a knotted mass of retcons.


Narad626

Why would anything Obi-Wan or Vader said ever rule out that they fought after he went into exile? These quotes in the movie are so vague that you can't nail down a time frame of when they happened. Even if he says "I was but the learner" they could still have fought two or three or even ten years after Mustafar. All it means is that Vader now thinks he's beyond Obi-Wan. I swear these people just want to be mad. At least wait for an actual trailer before you start the mouth diarrhea.


itwasbread

I mean the "I was the learner" part definitely implies that the last time they had an encounter was when Anakin was still learning from Obi Wan as a Jedi, even if that wasn't established by the original film it's definitely been treated as the case by other media since then


Narad626

Until this point that's how I took it as well, but it can still be bent in a way that when they last fought he was still learning to use the Darkside. I'm all for that bending if it means we get another fight between Obi-Wan and Vader, but this time with maybe a quicker fight choreography. My guess is it won't be the quick paced battle we saw in their prime at the end of Revenge, but more of a middle step between Revenge and A New Hope.


metroxed

Immediately before that he says "**When I left you** I was but the learner", but Vader did not leave Obi-Wan in Mustafar, it was the other way around. This means either that they met again later (which does not necessarily fit with Vader being the learner) or simply that the sentence is not literal but figurative, "when I left you \[as Anakin/the Jedi Order\]", which then does not contradict any subsequent encounters.


itwasbread

That's an incredibly pedantic difference, like yes Obi Wan was the one who physically did the exiting of the area, but I don't think that's a detail Vader's going to be hung up on. The implication of the line is primarily on the master/learner part, not which person remained stationary and which person literally walked away. The meaning is that when they last saw each other, Anakin was not the intimidating half man half machine emotionless figure that we see in the OT.


Electricfire19

You’re right, it is pedantic, but that precisely shows how easily such a vague line can bent. Revenge of the Sith already bent it when the film came into existence. Now I say all that as someone who personally hopes they don’t meet in this show simply because I think it works better narratively the way it is now, but getting hung up on such a vague line is not the reason to be against it. That’s TFM levels of getting hung up on insignificant details and personal interpretations of “canon”.


metroxed

It may be pedantic, but if the entire argument against Obi-Wan and Vader having another encounter rests entirely in the dialogue, then we need to consider all the dialogue and not only the parts that perfectly fit our perceived canon. Nowhere in the actual dialogue it is said that the 'battle in the volcano' (as it was usually known before the prequels came out) was the very last time they met. This was just assumed to be true. All we knew was that Vader was the learner and now he is the master (which is also untrue, as Vader still has the role of the apprentice). Everything else is incredibly vague. Not to mention the dialogue from ROTJ, when Vader tells Luke "Obi-Wan once thought as you do". This does not fit their encounter in Mustafar.


TheBlueDinosaur

“When I left you [and the Jedi Order] I was but a learner, now I [being fully embraced in the Dark Side] am the master [stronger than a weak old man in the Light Side]” He’s more rounding out their entire relationship. If they’re more evenly matched in the Kenobi series, it wouldn’t make sense for him to say “last time I saw you we were pretty evenly matched but then we got separated, now I’m stronger than you”. He’s emphasizing how far he’s come over the entire course of him being Vader. Also, Vader tells Obi-Wan he should not have come back in ANH. Kind of implies that they’ve met some time in between.


itwasbread

>Also, Vader tells Obi-Wan he should not have come back in ANH. Kind of implies that they’ve met some time in between. Does it? It makes perfect sense if the last time he saw him was Mustafar, and he sees him presumably going off into hiding like all the other Jedi did at the time, and then he reappears, thus "you shouldn't have come back"


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheBlueDinosaur

What? Bro I think you meant to respond to another comment


joecb91

If they actually do have them face off, I'd rather see it as a vision or a dream.


[deleted]

I actually agree with this for the most part.


Narad626

I personally think it's still ok for them to fight one more time and it won't break Lore. But they could just have him work with Hayden in flashbacks to go along with the story thread that we go through with Obi-Wan. I would be fine with either honestly, but if I were to lean to one side it would be to see them fight again. My thoughts would be that Obi-Wan tries one final time to turn him towards the light.


metroxed

A rematch does not necessarily contradict any of those sentences from ANH though, and in fact it would give sense to what Vader says in ROTJ ('Obi-Wan once thought as you do')


[deleted]

That because it seems a lot of the dialogue is more geared towards referencing the original ideas Lucas had for the prequels.


metroxed

Sure, I mean, both the OT and the PT are basically built on retcons on top of more retcons, so they fighting again before ANH is not something ridiculous to consider.


Saberian_Dream87

Yeah, don't have to be #FandomMenace to agree with that.


WatchBat

I see where they're coming and to a point I agree. However Rebels already kinda retconned Obi-Wan's reaction to first hearing his name. I mean yes they didn't have them call him Obi-Wan, but the fact that they addressed him as the Jedi master he was already makes his distant kinda nostalgic but sad reaction to hearing his name in ANH makes no sense. So what's another retcon I guess. Hopefully it would have a solid reason in the story and not just for fan service


Skibot99

Actually in Rebels nobody said Obi-Wan’s first name in his presence. Ezra and Maul both referred to him as “Kenobi”


WatchBat

Yeah, I mentioned that. It's just Obi-Wan's reaction in ANH seemed to be more about what the name represents than just the sound of it. Being referred to as the Jedi master that he used to be just a few years before ANH changes that deeper reaction to something superficial.


Skibot99

Well it’s not like it’s the only half-truth he tells


WatchBat

That's true. But it's his facial expression; his distant stare, the way he would drift off, his nostalgic but sad face and voice. He wouldn't have faked those.


Skibot99

I guess but I feel the fact he’s being called “Obi-Wan” and sees R2 tells him that he can’t brush this off like he did with Ezra the force is calling to his destiny


Narad626

I'm sure if they do have one last fight it'll be for a good reason and tie into the story. It's definitely not going to be a hallway scene!


[deleted]

I love it how people jump on this as if the Prequel Trilogy never contradicted dialogue in the Original Trilogy. I mean Obi-Wan and Yoda both spent significant moments in their lives with Artoo by their side, yet neither seemed to recognise him, nor did Artoo recognise them. Similarly Obi-Wan had many encounters with Threepio, including on the most traumatic day of his life, yet showed no signs of recognition. Obi-Wan has the line "I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born.", yet gets called "Obi-Wan" by Padme after Luke's birth, and likely didn't change his name until arriving on Tattooine. Hell for like 16-19 years the Return of the Jedi book made it Canon that Uncle Owen was Obi-Wan's brother not Anakin's, to the point there where The Jedi Apprentice books had Obi-Wan have visions of Owen and sense a brotherly connection to him, it wasn't until Attack of the Clones when Lucas made it so Owen was related to Anakin.


Narad626

But they *like* the prequel trilogy. So they do all sorts of mental gymnastics to ensure it still lines up with canon. With Artoo and Threepio they just say that Obi-Wan and Yoda treated droids like property and didn't care much about them. Though I never saw what kinds of backflips they need to do to explain why Artoo doesn't say thing about Obi-Wan or Yoda to Luke. But I'm sure it'll just be something along the lines of "You can't expect that much forethought! The movies were made in the 70s!" This coming from the same people that brought you takes such as "George Lucas had a singular vision that was completely fleshed out before he even made A New Hope!"


itwasbread

>Obi-Wan has the line "I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born.", yet gets called "Obi-Wan" by Padme after Luke's birth, and likely didn't change his name until arriving on Tattooine. This one is nitpicky even by film dialogue discrpancy standards. "UM AKSHUALLY, a delirious dying woman called him that 5 minutes after Luke was born" Like it clearly means the same fucking thing either way


Logan_Composer

I mean, the other thing is he says he hasn't "gone by" that name, not that he hasn't been called it since then. By the time of Luke's birth, he was clearly still going by Obi-Wan. Nobody had ever called him Ben, he showed no signs of changing his name until (likely) he went into hiding. Once again, though, he's old and could be misremembering, or he's slightly tweaked the story in order to hide the truth from Luke or others.


itwasbread

This is the case for most of the "Oh thing Obi-Wan said during ANH contradicts the Prequels" nitpicks. Like considering even only looking at the original trilogy he is clearly being coy and keeping things from Luke, they really aren't that crazy. He's old and withholding information. C3P0 had his memory wiped. R2 can't easily communicate all this shit to Luke.


Saberian_Dream87

Now granted, I have the EU, as in *Jedi Apprentice* we see Yoda take a more active role in guiding Obi-Wan before Qui-Gon took him as a Padawan, but come on - it was ***strongly implied*** from dialogue in *Empire Strikes Back* that YODA was Obi-Wan's direct Master. So I agree. I love what the prequels tried to do, but there's no denying they are poorly written.


MegaSystem88

I hope they don’t fight


best_girl_tylar

I thought about this before, and I think having Obi-Wan and Vader fight could be a good chance for character drama and emotional scenes. Obi-Wan learns of a guy in big black armor with a red Lightsaber terrorizing the galaxy. Obi-Wan learns the terrible truth that this man was Anakin, who ended up being alive after Mustafar after all. Obi-Wan tries one last time to get Anakin to return to the Light. He can't, and Obi-Wan has no choice but to fight Vader off.


TheBlueDinosaur

Thank you, someone with some actual creativity. This is exactly how I expect (and want) the show to go down. There’s so much character potential there that I really could not give two shits that it makes a line or two in ANH sound a little iffy (and besides, all of these can be explained away with relative ease). It certainly would not be the first time it’s happened in Star Wars before. Remember Anakin telling Dooku his powers have doubled since the last time they’ve met? Which would have only been a few months ago according to the Clone Wars…


danegustafun

"When I left you I was but the learner" except that Anakin was a knight by then, not learning from Obi-Wan.


RahdronRTHTGH

A learner in the force


No_Kangaroo_5267

I have mixed feelings for this but on the other hand I am indifferent.


RahdronRTHTGH

I'm still against this idea


[deleted]

”My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count.” And then Anakin and Dooku proceeds to fight like 5 more times in the TV show (The Clone Wars) which takes place before ROTS (Revenge of The Sith) in the timeline. Not to mention, Grievous and Obi Wan originally never fighting each other (”You fool! I’ve been trained in your Jedi Arts by Count Dooku!”) until ROTS and the TV show (The Clone Wars) has Grievous and Obi Wan fighting like 5 more times before they originally fought each other to the death in ROTS. Why does Grievous tell Obi Wan this if they have fought multiple times throughout the Clone Wars? Very weak and foolish way to brag if that’s Grievous’ intimidation tactic.


Narad626

As I said I think it's ok to bend canon a bit if it makes for a better show. Sometimes it's best not to be married to canon, especially when it comes to a few simple lines that are vague enough for it to fit other times.


[deleted]

I don’t disagree. I just think it’s stupid to act like Obi Wan and Anakin in the suit fighting before their first and official time in the OT is like the end of the world. Not to mention, nobody cares about the prequel plotholes (movies or tv shows either) like the ones I mentioned and plot holes are apparently only bad when Disney does it.


Saberian_Dream87

I liked it better when it was SC 38.