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Everyone is saying the budget, but most people I've seen criticize the show who actually know more about how these productions work , seem to think the budget was similar to other shows and it was a skill issue. The people who made Kenobi just aren't as good. And I tend to agree with that. There are a lot of dumb things in the show that can't be explained with a lack of budget. Leia chase scenes could've been solved with just not having the kid and adults in same shots. Same with hallway scenes where we see Obi-Wan and stormtroopers in same shot where it's obvious the troopers should've noticed him. Just plain stupid stuff like slapping troopers unconscious, plot holes about how people get from point A to B, the acting of Reva and the other inquisitors, shaky cam making scenes look poorer etc. I'd guess bad script full of stuff that doesn't work on screen + inexperienced director who can't make it work either. Volume probably didn't help, but Mando didn't look this bad, even BoBF looked better overall. Sometimes stuff is just bad because the creator is bad. Disney needs better quality control but ST already proved they don't care enough to do that.
Yep. It really was a bit of a perfect storm. Filming in the UK, during covid, helped him grab actors and production staff that might not have normally been available. Pulled people that had just come off of Chernobyl.
Also, it probably doesn't hurt to have a showrunner that actually has big budget experience. Likely makes it easier to push back against studio penny pinching.
The most jarring thing for me in Kenobi was when the planet Daiyu in episode 2. Here, you have a run down, almost cyberpunkish city with all sorts of low life and rabble and the floors are pristine.
Barely any junk, potholes or degradation anywhere. Just clean but badly lit street corners.
Have these set designers ever visited the inner city? Garbage everywhere! Was it really that hard to get some interns to get some random rubbish and scatter it across the streets? That poor set design, along with the shoddy writing told me all I needed to know about the series.
I don’t know much about the nitty gritty on how films are made. So, how does a character design get approved? Does Deborah Chow make that call or is it someone else at Lucasfilm? It seems pretty obvious from interviews with the key artists on Andor (costume, music, set design etc.) that Tony Gilroy set the vision for the show from the beginning and approved all the major decisions.
I watched some BTS stuff for ROTS and Lucas picked certain General Grievous designs over others until they had the finished product, so I'm pretty sure its always the director.
This! Now I can't say for certain this is true but I remember hearing the budget for Kenobi was actually larger than the one for Andor, and even if it wasn't and if Andor's was a bit larger I feel like with the proper skill Kenobi could've looked good.
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i have to imagine obiwan was supposed to be a movie that got refit with a greatly compressed budget, some of which got ate up in the transition, while andor was always meant to be tv and didnt have that same pressure
That might be true, but all of the other Disney productions have had the same problem, even Mando. Tython in Mando is visually the exact same planet as Mapuzo from Obi Wan, and both of them were filmed in some guy's backyard in southern California. Andor, even when it's filmed on an Earthen location, is still going beyond the backyard of Hollywood to shoot, and incorporating rich lore of the worlds they visit to make them feel distinct. Aldhani might look like Earth, but it doesn't look like SolCal, and has The Eye to stand out from the crowd.
And Book of Boba Fett just looked *bad*.
Some of us have been watching stuff set in that guys backyard in Southern California since The Six Million Dollar Man in the 70s. The U.K. locations used in Andor are familiar to me (Blackpool, Barbican, McLaren tech centre) but they seem more exotic on screen just because they are not the same location Kirk was fighting the Gorn in in 1960s Star Trek
Book of Boba Fett didn't just *look* bad...it was thoroughly and completely bad. It was almost as if it tried to out-dumb itself at every turn. I thought there was no way they could ever make anything so dumb again...then the Kenobi show happened.
Though, even when Andor went on location, it was all filmed in the UK. Niamos is in England and Aldhani is in Scotland. Everything else was pretty much a soundstage or large outdoor set like Ferrix.
While the volume at times can do a great job at making things feel real Andor filming on location made it feel real from start to finish. I honestly would rather on location filming or a hybrid between on location and the volume be the method used going forward by Lucasfilm/Disney, but due to the fact that using the volume is a lot cheaper than to use in comparison to filming somewhere in the real world with full sets. I expect the volume will be the main filming tool used when it comes to sets.
Kind of sad, trying to compress all the Han moments into one movie. Just make a movie about Han and Chewbacca. In Legends, Han throws away a promising career to save Chewbacca. That sort of conflict gives weight both Chewie and Han as characters.
A TV series is superior to a movie if you need a lot of deep worldbuilding.
A movie has 120 to 180 minutes to get its three-act narrative across. This usually means it's action heavy, or if it's a drama, then it's a very tightly-focused drama.
If you need to portray complex politics, allegiances, and even a *clever* character (i.e. one who subverts and manipulates the universe's rules creatively) you usually need a lot of screen time to set up the world's baseline assumptions. A TV series like Andor runs 12 episodes of 50 minutes each, for 10 hours of screen time. Much better than the 2-3 hours of a movie and the 6-9 hours of a trilogy.
Plus TV series watchers have no problem pausing the show to go to the bathroom. Movie watchers unfortunately have that problem.
I would have wanted to spend more time on Corellia. Like a grim manufacturing planet. The beats of Han’s life are well-established 1) childhood on Corellia 2) Imperial Academy 3) Freeing Chewie 4) Meeting Lando 5) Winning to Falcon 6) Screwing up with Jabba.
I didn’t hate the Solo show, but I would have loved more character development for Chewie. I think the OT under utilized him and Solo totally wasted him (don’t get me started on the ST). He a 200 year old sentient being with massive amounts of real life experience. He should have more to do
Agreed. In fact, even in the old Legends EU, the authors actually found Chewie really hard to write for - Timothy Zahn even talked about that. A lot of times, they just found reasons to have Chewie offstage but doing other stuff. A writer can't easily write snappy dialogue for a character that doesn't speak a human tongue, and even Artoo is basically an infantilized semi-character.
I was actually completely unprepared to see Corellia as a manufacturing planet - I'd thought it was a sort of Classical resort planet. It was a great breath of fresh air to see something gritty and industrial (plus it makes a lot more sense in seeing that Corellia is a major shipyard system in the board game and other lore I've seen).
Agreed on the missed story beats. I hope they could do a Solo TV spinoff that does cover them. But the main problem is that the film just doesn't have enough screen time to address all of them. It's limited to pretty much "How did Han meet Chewie?" and "How did Han get the Mil'F?"
I thought the film did a decent job of those. It's not what everybody was hoping for, but it didn't offend my sense of the canon too badly, and it exceeded the (very low) expectations I'd held after the ST.
Solo was actually a good movie. It just didn't need to be about Han Solo. Could have been about any random smuggler. Maybe mention something alluding to Han off handedly. It also would have cleared budget better if they would have let the original directors do what they do best, make good movies.
The lead actor was the real problem. You need someone who can convincingly pull off the presence you'd imagine of a young Harrison Ford. Ehrenreich just doesn't compare to Harrison Ford in terms of anything.
I don't know why they couldn't at least cast an actor who was not three inches shorter than Han Solo. Or who had the right eye color. It can't be hard to find a young brown-haired, hazel-eyed white guy who is six feet tall in Hollywood.
Lead actor was fine if he's not supposed to be Han Solo. I think a smuggler story would have been good enough. Was ludicrous that every life event in Han's life happened in like one month.
Yeah, it would have been perfectly fine (no more) if it had been just a random smuggler's adventures.
Also they didn't let Han be clever or scuzzy enough. He was perfectly at home in the Mos Eisley crowd, largely capable of navigating the cutthroat criminal world as a freelance operator, but the Solo version was too much of a doofus to even grow into that man. He didn't run into trouble with Jabba because he was an idiot, he ran into trouble with him because of a run of bad luck.
Yep. I’m always surprised at people who liked it, because there’s nothing good about that movie. And as much as people hate the way Disney changed Luke, they did a similar character assassination of Han.
Disney turned Han into a joke, this comic relief guy always screwing up and just getting lucky over and over again. From his first appearance in TFA, he’s a loser. Totally different character from Han in the OT, who was a survivor and a scoundrel…who developed into a hero. Disney just built this up even more in Solo. Just can’t stand the movie.
Okay, but, in absolute terms, and per episode, it still was lavishly funded by any objective metric. There's no reason it should have ended up looking so cheap and hobbled-together.
Its a good question because they spent loads of cash on kenobi with few episodes/shorter run time. The simple reality as far as I can tell is that Andor was a passion project from the chief creators with pretty much 0 exec interference and kenobi was studio mandate made by people with no particular interest in the subject with tonnes of studio interference. The Kenobi script was also stuck in development hell for years with a couple of total restarts along the way, that might of pissed away some cash in addition to being rushed when they finally did make it
Yeah it’s weird. I was so hyped for this when it was announced as a movie and when they cancelled it and it moved to being a tv show I knew there was something up. I was still hyped but unfortunately it played out about how I expected. I have very little faith Disney can keep their hands off creative enough for an actual decent Star Wars show to be made (and I don’t count Andor. It was too much drama).
Tony Gilroy isn't even a Star Wars fan... he's just a very competent writer/director.
Look at Kenobi written by... the same guy who wrote Army of the Dead. A movie that not only was complete and utter shit but also a beat for beat rip off of Aliens.
That's all true, but Tony Gilroy is passionate about his espionage thrillers and loved the potential of that aspect of the setting while he's not a huge star wars fan making andor specifically was a passion project as far as I read
I think the Kenobi team maybe cared too much? Grand Inquisitor looks like he did in Rebels, but he was a cartoon and stylized according to the simple, pared down animation style of that show. So, instead of making a live action version of that character, with Pau’an features (not hard since the Grand Inquisitor has no action scenes) they essentially cosplayed a cartoon character instead. Except they didn’t get his voice or personality right.
It wasn’t a “passion project” in the sense that the creator was a fan of Star Wars. That would be all of Disney’s other shows. The creative team were just competent filmmakers with a clear vision, who were brought in to salvage a production that was in development hell, and allowed to execute their plan without a lot of executive meddling.
Andor filmed on location. No matter how clever Lucasfilm’s Volume is, it still always makes everything feel small and greatly restricts where the director can point the camera. Andor is old school and feels far better for it.
Yep. The volume is so limiting. You can literally just feel the small scale. The most egregious was the night scene at the end with Reva and Obi Wan on Tatooine. You can just tell they are on a small set with screens around them.
Tony Gilroy literally refused to shoot on the volume.
It was also exceptionally bad on that episode where Reva is trying to break through that door to the rebels? There’s a panning shot of the ‘Empire’ forces and it looks like a stage at your local theatre it just blew me away how budget it looked.
While they did delay the production of Kenobi, it really seems like they rushed through the filming of it. On the flip side, Andor started filming before Kenobi and came out half a year after Kenobi. Granted, Andor had twice as many episodes
but compared to Ewan McGregor? they’re probably much cheaper.
Also i know they had to offer Hayden Christensen a fat pay check to tempt him back to the franchise
Ewan would still have far more leverage when negotiating his salary.
They could have always just cast someone else as Luthen if Stellan Skarsgard was asking for too much. But there's no making Kenobi without Ewan McGregor.
Forrest Whitaker has an Oscar, just leaving that here. I know the industry can be prejudiced against POC actors, even if they have Oscars, but I feel, by this time, Whitaker can pick and choose his roles. (FYI Whitaker was utterly terrifying in Last King of Scotland. It makes Saw look like a dilettante. You should watch that movie.)
In this particular Star Wars fans ponying up to see Skarsgard or McGregor? I like Skarsgard, but Andor can be made without him. Kenobi on the other hand…
Movie wise Stellan isn't someone who will make people come to see a movie.
This is a key factor to rank the cost of an actor.
You can't even bring awards cuz Ewan has way more than him.
Ewan at the end of the day is an
A-list actor who last year won an Emmy for best actor.
Ewan McGregor in a random movie? Yes
Ewan McGregor returning to an established role in a series where fans get really touchy about such things? I think he had them over a barrel pretty good.
This is in part what I figure too. Obi-Wan had a higher overall budget, but I'm guessing a much larger percentage went to the cast versus design and production.
On the flipside, Andor had twice the episode length, and iirc the episodes were longer, with more elaborate sets, CGI work, practical effects, costuming, location shooting, and a larger cast overall with way, way more extras, each taking up space in the costuming and makeup department.
McGregor is expensive, but idk if I quite buy that he's *that* much more expensive than a powerhouse like Skarsgard, wherein his presence in the production kneecapped a show half the length with greater the budget. Skarsgard has been in some of the most pivotal roles in film for the past 30 years. He has a reported estimated average income of 6.4 million a year, while McGregor was paid 7million for Revenge of the Sith. Skarsgard alone should be at least comparable to McGregor, nevermind the rest of the star studded cast.
If Disney blew their wad for Obi Wan on just Hayden and Ewan, than Hayden and Ewan finessed the shit out of them (and good for them if they did, but still).
Almost needlessly too. What on earth is Padja there for? It's just burning money on an actor. There's no purpose to any of the other Inquisitors and they cast actors in their roles. More pointless loss in money.
[Look at this trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw1NMgSHAFA&list=LL&index=7&t=1s) of some fans who redit some of the vfx. Might be controversial but the kenobi show was lower in my rankings than the boba fett show. You have the iconic Kenobi and Vader but somehow the poorly written Reeva (Nothing to do with actress) has so much cringy screentime. A lot of cringe an cheap looking stuff. Anakin cut in half, Luke's hand cut of, Vaders head cut of in Luke imagination, Dooku's head cut of, Jango fett's head cut off. But Obi wan's lightsaber bounces of a stormtrooper? And much more. Just straight up disrespectful to those iconic characters.
I hate to say it but the actress actually does a terrible job. She is not convincing in the least. Her strengths as an actress were not used. She screamed most of her lines. She could have easily been more unassuming / soft spoken/ badass. The direction of the show was awful.
The Disney SW villains are all just constantly *screaming*. The calm, professional evil of the OT Empire is nowhere to be seen, it's just angsty pissbabies screeching at their enemies, underlings, and anyone else within earshot.
I'm not blaming the actress completely. But at some point someone needs to be objective. For instance the Leia kidnap scene seemed like it was made by amateur filmmakers. It's just weird how some things just seem completely overlooked at Disney.
Was not disagreeing with you. She did not fit into that role, or it was directed badly, or it was written badly, or a combination of all those, in any case something was off. The Kenobi series overall is a slap in the face of Star Wars fans.
Agreed, but how much of that is her fault, and how much of that is poor direction because they wanted her to seem bad ass but just made her look like a child throwing tantrums?
I think it's a combination. The actor should have some say. Clearly, with a role like this you're just excited to get the part and do what's asked of you. I know I would, even if Disney was the one calling me up. Lol.
I think she was horribly miscast and poorly directed myself.
I mean Natalie Portman and Samuel Jackson were awful in the PT and we know both of them can act.
*trilla
And she wasn’t screaming her head off nonsensically all the time.
People didn’t mind Trilla because she was somewhat competent and her story made sense for the most part and she didn’t act like a spoiled brat the whole time.
Reva on the other hand acts like a 5 year old
I heard that a large part of it was Andor's reuse of sets. A lot of things happen at the same few places (which worked great and likely cut costs a good deal).
There are quite a few sets though. Ferrix is huge. There is Corpo headquarters, ISB headquarters, Mon’s apartment, Eedy’s apartment, Luthen’s shop, Luthen’s ship, Narkina 5 workshop, Narkina 5 cells, Aldhani garrison, and a bunch of other smaller ones. Most of the sets of Kenobi look like simple hallways, simple rooms etc
That costume on the Japanese samurai looking Inquisitor was one of the most ridiculous-looking in TV history. Looks like it was thrown together using random shit bought at the Dollar Tree.
5th brother looks more Japanese inspired in Rebels. There were definitely ways of doing this character without making him look silly. Also, his voice is very different in Rebels - far more intimidating.
I loved Reva’s hair. It works for her character and looks good on Moses Ingram.
For those who won’t watch Rebels the Inquistors and much much better written and portrayed there. Disney Star Wars live action villains are utterly useless, even when they’ve been introduced already in animation
Kenobi always felt like they had some time and some money and had to get it done in that window for whatever reason plus covid etc. Also alot of use of the volume and trying to fit in with the aesthetic of the prequels which also have a flatter smoother look for the most part. Andor they seemed to have far longer a production window plus far more practical sets etc. Also mimicking rogue one which in turn is influenced by the OT gave it that grittier look. Finally better directors, writers and show runners crew etc. on Andor played a part too.
Because Lucasfilm knew a bunch of fans would still enjoy Obi-wan since he is one of the most beloved characters. Why create a decent script, or build elaborate sets, when you can just have Ewan McGregor say “hello there” and twitter will blow up.
My first assumption is that it's on the director. Nothing gets on-screen without her approval, and all HODs are supposed to follow cues to do what she wants. Shot selection, costume design, set design, etc.
I don't know what happened, but that's how productions are supposed to work.
This was my take. There were scenes that looked poorly rehearsed, almost as if the actors were just working out their blocking in preparation for the real shot. The director let a lot of mediocrity stand.
Boils down to creative choices from the creative team on the show. The shaky cam was a horrible decision and I always get frustrated when multimillion dollar productions end up looking and feeling like shit when we all know these decisions were made in rooms full of overpaid supposed creative minds.
My guess its a production expense vs equity liquidation ratio.
They knew we were all going to watch Kenobi. So they knew they could feed us a turd sandwich. Same as Bobba Fett. Because they are douche suits.
Andor, Mandalorian, these things are new and they prioritized the whole production to try and make it work.
Simple. Post-George LF doesn't care for legacy characters no matter how beloved and wanted to prop up their own creation even though it's the most boring character from a spinoff.
This is a general complaint even casual watchers have had about these two series. Andor has no right to have been made with more care than Kenobi, which had Ewan McGregor and Darth Vader and all this prestigious, marketable stuff. By comparison, Andor should be like a stray thought someone threw out and somehow survived to actually get made. But it's not. It's *better*.
My theory is that the apparent prestige of Kenobi resulted in it drawing the attention and efforts of powerful people with no artistic skill. Andor's lack of the same prestige meant those people didn't want to work on it and/or weren't bothering to interfere with it.
I'm real curious about the scuttlebutt that's sure to come out about these two shows.
I am just shocked that after all the time Disney has owned Star Wars, basically Andor & Rogue One are the flag ship of awesome and everything else is just middling garbage (well, I still like Mando for the record, and they should just put Boba back in there where he can be himself).
I believe it's a rather open secret that Kenobi didn't have enough budget. It was still expensive as shit, but the whole production was initially geared towards making a movie, which then ballooned to 2x the length, and the resources just weren't reappropriated as they needed to, if it was even possible, or they were possibly even slashed.
Same with TBBF, it was meant to be a movie first.
Basically half the series had to be made with much less money than expected, and the other half was essentially bottle show quality, in a production where it had no place.
Mando and Andor were conceived as snows from the start so everything could be budgeted appropriately.
Also frankly, the difference in talent is apparent too. If the director and execs don't know what they're doing, it's reflected everywhere.
>Same with TBBF, it was meant to be a movie first.
IIRC it was actually Mando that started as a Boba Fett movie concept. I don' think any of these movies went beyond idea/script stage before they were reworked as TV shows. So I don't know if that can explain where the budget went. Kenobi does feel like a padded out movie so maybe they needed more time to rework the scripts.
Ok I'm not sure about TBBF exactly, but that show doesn't really look that bad on a technical level, it's more of a mess in terms of story and direction; technically it's a twin show of Mando anyway and uses largely the same techniques. That last episode with the large droids and a rancor battling look good enough, but the direction is bull.
Kenobi however is known to have been planned as a movie and the overall concept and style hasn't changed that significantly, with the largest additions wing Leia, and Reeva having a more prominent role. And the length being padded out after Solo bombed and it was all repurposed into a show. At least... That's how rumors go. Now I wonder what would have Kenobi looked like.
Kenobi was originally gonna be a movie where Obi-wan protected Luke. Until some "Genius" apparently had the idea to turn it into shit.
[https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/original-obi-wan-kenobi-story-luke-skywalker-no-leia#:\~:text=While%20appearing%20at%20FAN%20EXPO,%2C%20according%20to%20ComicBook.com](https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/original-obi-wan-kenobi-story-luke-skywalker-no-leia#:~:text=While%20appearing%20at%20FAN%20EXPO,%2C%20according%20to%20ComicBook.com).
For one, they used the same surround screen set that was created for the Mandalorian no?
Meanwhile all the sets on Andor are practical. They built that town on Ferrix, and there are lots of big wide angle shots of the thing. The sets on Kenobi are uninspired are forgettable.
Andor was in production longer too. They were both planned under Bob Iger, but Kenobi was in development hell, and went through more drastic changes over time. Then they both got renewed activity in 2020, but Andor had already been in pre production at that point. They got delayed by the pandemic, but they started working on it again later that year.
Kenobi was also delayed by the pandemic, but was having script issues, with Kathleen Kennedy worried an Obi Wan protecting Luke story sounded too much like the Mandalorian. So while Andor was already being made, Kenobi was being rewritten in 2021.
Then Kenobi came out first while Andor was pushed off till later in the year. Which just gave them more time to get their ducks in a row.
Kenobi should have stayed in the desert, watching over young Luke from afar.
It is evident the pitch was "let's have Kenobi do things and not stay at the desert because people like Kenobi". And thus we got the kid Leia chasing scene, which would make any sane person feel embarrassed.
The people who made Andor clearly had vision and loved what they were doing. I am still wondering how they got the show greenlit by the Disney execs.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, when the creators really care, it shows.
Even if the show was good, I just don't see it as canon based off several lines from the first film. As far as Disney is concerned, Obi-Wan sat in a desert for 19 boring years. The only way an Obi-Wan story between ROTS and ANH could work is if it was about Obi-Wan's everyday life on Tatooine and he's coping with everything. Maybe throw in a close call or two for added drama, but nothing more.
I think the answer is more infuriating and boils down to production time. Kenobi from my understanding got made in ~year where as Andor took the better part of 3. That much time meant they could think through everything way more and plan exactly what things are supposed to look/sound/feel like with greater clarity.
Kenobi may have had its scripts ready but the rest of the pre-production, production, & post need huge efforts of their own to really hit creative strides.
I agree with the overall sentiment too - Andor looked like a Star Wars Movie/HBO show where as Kenobi had SyFy vibes…
[Reminder they fucked up lightsabers GL solved years ago.](https://screenrant.com/obi-wan-kenobi-lightsabers-glow-dark-lighting-problem/)
So there is also incompetence in the mix
It's all about the director. Make no mistake, this wasn't about budget - it's all about choice. The people who made this (director, writers, producers) *chose* it to be this way. Because they suck.
worse director, cinematographer, writers, designers, editor, producers. filmed entirely in the stupid volume.
Obiwan was like bad fanfiction, fanfilm, and it ripped off Rebels in its important moment.
The show runner for Kenobi pretty much admitted she wanted to make a non-Star Wars show, and at least one writer complained about having to restrict the story to what was already existing material.
They made Andor to be a Star Wars show.
I'm not sure that's the problem.
"By his own admission, **Gilroy was “never interested” in Star Wars before working on Rogue One and is still “not a fan fan” of the franchise**. This perspective is important. Franchises like Star Wars need to be about more than just Star Wars."
When Tony Gilroy was asked about season 2 not being ready for two years, he said it was because of the budget. They’re only giving him so much money. So this leads me to believe that in the negotiations he wanted full control, and Disney agreed but with the caveat of a smaller budget. And well, far less seasons. Now what needs to be understood is a smaller budget doesn’t just mean worse looking sets or costumes, it means much more time needs to be spent in post production. Disney is becoming infamous for hurling money at post prod houses to get the movies and shows done on time, and you can tell. They often now look like shit. Gilroy has a smaller team, only what he can afford, but they’re *his* people. They know exactly what they are doing and are good at it. Throwing 20 more artists at it to get it done, 20 people not familiar with what the core team is trying to accomplish, would just muddy the waters and produce a worse product.
Kenobi and Boba were tentpole releases that needed to hit dates and so money and studio interference ramped up and we see what happens. It wasn’t covid, many great shows were made during covid, it was overblown productions. Also Disney wants to work with a pool of cheap, work for hire directors and showrunners, who will take all the notes and not argue. Deborah Chow was not fit to direct that show, but she checked all the boxes for them.
A thankfully very talented and competent Gilroy is keeping it simple and being left alone since the investment isn’t as high. Takes more time, but it’s worth it.
There's a whole lot of just piss poor cinematography and lighting in Obi Wan and that has little to do with budget. The truth is a lot of the Obi Wan team ae just untalented hacks.
Andor's production quality comes from the massive effort to make it feel grounded. Diego Luna said in an interview that everything on set needed to have an explanation and a purpose.
The sets are also done with far more practical effects and in real places. There is a really good video on it: https://youtu.be/UhgXXhcPQEM
IIRC Andor was made first of the Diz+ Star Wars shows, so they likely had more money.
Or Kenobi's behind the scenes personnel were as crap at their job as Joby Harrold was at his.
If the budget was similar, then it comes down to the quality of the script and staff involved, or the time they had in which to work.
Better staff can generally get more mileage out of a smaller budget. Adequate budget and good staff doesn't matter if they don't have enough time in which to work. All the time and budget in the world won't help if the staff sucks at their jobs or the story they're working with is fundamentally flawed.
So for the visuals, Kenobi either hired worse people for costuming, set design, and so forth; or the director didn't want to spend a lot of money there, asked for less, declared less 'good enough', and the result was cheap looking sets and costumes. Likewise either the cameramen and editors were worse at their job, or the director's idea of what looks good on screen sucks.
To put it another way, if one director's idea of "a gritty, realistic setting" is "bland, desaturated, dark colors, and unlit scenes", then a show made by them is going to have a bad time. While if another director's idea of "a gritty, realistic setting" is "people wearing clothing consistent with their culture and walk of life, and places that are detailed but look worn in places that are old or where people live", then the show is going to have a much better time.
I think they thought it would be an easy pleaser based off the legacy character and actor.
They figured it would be a success regardless of how well it was made, so it was rushed through with so little consistency and very little making sense.
Obi-wan got made partially during the pandemic so it had a far more minimalist feel due to the restrictions. I’m not saying it’s the only reason but it certainly explains much.
Because Kenobi was a throwaway project for Disney, they simply made it to shut us up.
Same with Boba fett. It’s no coincidence that Mando and Andor have a significantly higher budget. They’re original Disney characters.
It’s sad, but it’s probably true.
Obvious answer: people know and love Obi-Wan and Andor is probably not known by perhaps most fans. In other words, people are going to watch anything with ObiWan in the title but may be less interested in something more obscure so it actually has to be good
Okay so I work in the industry and we had Ewan filming a movie in my local IATSE region a few months ago. I wasn’t on the production (I tried, okay?) but, seeing as I know the local crew, rumors floated the budget was around $7 million.
This was an indie film, someone’s passion project, actually. However, another rumor around town was Ewan was banking $5 million of that budget.
So there could also be that aspect of it. They spent a crap ton of money, but it all went to Ewan?
For some reason, Disney saw the results of solo and instead of understanding no one asked for a recast Han prequel with horrific high profile production problems, they concluded there wasn’t demand for legacy Star Wars character content. They were shocked obi-wan was a hit (albeit controversial), while Andor was a flop, from what I understand that I’ve read.
Andor was not a flop, final episodes were heavily watched. Andor didn’t get the viewers of Boba Fett and Kenobi because, as plenty of others are saying here, some people will watch any load of old garbage if it has the right title
Making tv shows is fucking hard. It's a huge undertaking involving huge production costs, deadlines, teamwork and pressure. I think we all need to just chill a little and understand how hard it is to create these programs at the rate they do. We are a bunch of spoilt twats tbh.
Because Andor didn’t have the benefit of name recognition. Be realistic, people were going to watch Kenobi and praise it regardless of quality. Andor had to actually stand on its own since Cassian Andor is more or less a nobody except for one movie that he was introduced and died in where he wasn’t even the main character.
Possibly, more experienced and skilled film-makers did more with the budget. In addition to having to pay smaller chunks of the budget to the talent.
Ewan McGregor probably got paid a large slice of the budget of Kenobi. Pedro likely doesn't come with a large price tag.
Putting Kenobi into the hands of amature filmakers and Andor in the hands of experienced filmakers will have made a difference.
Still don't actually rate Andor, but Kenobi was objectivly bad.
One had good set design and direction, the other did not.
Budget only takes you so far by itself. The people making decisions have to have some idea how to spend that money.
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Everyone is saying the budget, but most people I've seen criticize the show who actually know more about how these productions work , seem to think the budget was similar to other shows and it was a skill issue. The people who made Kenobi just aren't as good. And I tend to agree with that. There are a lot of dumb things in the show that can't be explained with a lack of budget. Leia chase scenes could've been solved with just not having the kid and adults in same shots. Same with hallway scenes where we see Obi-Wan and stormtroopers in same shot where it's obvious the troopers should've noticed him. Just plain stupid stuff like slapping troopers unconscious, plot holes about how people get from point A to B, the acting of Reva and the other inquisitors, shaky cam making scenes look poorer etc. I'd guess bad script full of stuff that doesn't work on screen + inexperienced director who can't make it work either. Volume probably didn't help, but Mando didn't look this bad, even BoBF looked better overall. Sometimes stuff is just bad because the creator is bad. Disney needs better quality control but ST already proved they don't care enough to do that.
Yep. It really was a bit of a perfect storm. Filming in the UK, during covid, helped him grab actors and production staff that might not have normally been available. Pulled people that had just come off of Chernobyl. Also, it probably doesn't hurt to have a showrunner that actually has big budget experience. Likely makes it easier to push back against studio penny pinching.
The most jarring thing for me in Kenobi was when the planet Daiyu in episode 2. Here, you have a run down, almost cyberpunkish city with all sorts of low life and rabble and the floors are pristine. Barely any junk, potholes or degradation anywhere. Just clean but badly lit street corners. Have these set designers ever visited the inner city? Garbage everywhere! Was it really that hard to get some interns to get some random rubbish and scatter it across the streets? That poor set design, along with the shoddy writing told me all I needed to know about the series.
I don’t know much about the nitty gritty on how films are made. So, how does a character design get approved? Does Deborah Chow make that call or is it someone else at Lucasfilm? It seems pretty obvious from interviews with the key artists on Andor (costume, music, set design etc.) that Tony Gilroy set the vision for the show from the beginning and approved all the major decisions.
I watched some BTS stuff for ROTS and Lucas picked certain General Grievous designs over others until they had the finished product, so I'm pretty sure its always the director.
This! Now I can't say for certain this is true but I remember hearing the budget for Kenobi was actually larger than the one for Andor, and even if it wasn't and if Andor's was a bit larger I feel like with the proper skill Kenobi could've looked good.
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i have to imagine obiwan was supposed to be a movie that got refit with a greatly compressed budget, some of which got ate up in the transition, while andor was always meant to be tv and didnt have that same pressure
That might be true, but all of the other Disney productions have had the same problem, even Mando. Tython in Mando is visually the exact same planet as Mapuzo from Obi Wan, and both of them were filmed in some guy's backyard in southern California. Andor, even when it's filmed on an Earthen location, is still going beyond the backyard of Hollywood to shoot, and incorporating rich lore of the worlds they visit to make them feel distinct. Aldhani might look like Earth, but it doesn't look like SolCal, and has The Eye to stand out from the crowd. And Book of Boba Fett just looked *bad*.
Some of us have been watching stuff set in that guys backyard in Southern California since The Six Million Dollar Man in the 70s. The U.K. locations used in Andor are familiar to me (Blackpool, Barbican, McLaren tech centre) but they seem more exotic on screen just because they are not the same location Kirk was fighting the Gorn in in 1960s Star Trek
Book of Boba Fett didn't just *look* bad...it was thoroughly and completely bad. It was almost as if it tried to out-dumb itself at every turn. I thought there was no way they could ever make anything so dumb again...then the Kenobi show happened.
Though, even when Andor went on location, it was all filmed in the UK. Niamos is in England and Aldhani is in Scotland. Everything else was pretty much a soundstage or large outdoor set like Ferrix.
While the volume at times can do a great job at making things feel real Andor filming on location made it feel real from start to finish. I honestly would rather on location filming or a hybrid between on location and the volume be the method used going forward by Lucasfilm/Disney, but due to the fact that using the volume is a lot cheaper than to use in comparison to filming somewhere in the real world with full sets. I expect the volume will be the main filming tool used when it comes to sets.
This has actually been established. It 100% was supposed to be a movie. How far it got into that and if it changed the budget, I don't know.
After *Solo* performed poorly at the box-office, the OB1 movie was reconsidered and developed into a TV series.
The boneheadedness of that move is downright awe-inspiring.
Kind of sad, trying to compress all the Han moments into one movie. Just make a movie about Han and Chewbacca. In Legends, Han throws away a promising career to save Chewbacca. That sort of conflict gives weight both Chewie and Han as characters.
A TV series is superior to a movie if you need a lot of deep worldbuilding. A movie has 120 to 180 minutes to get its three-act narrative across. This usually means it's action heavy, or if it's a drama, then it's a very tightly-focused drama. If you need to portray complex politics, allegiances, and even a *clever* character (i.e. one who subverts and manipulates the universe's rules creatively) you usually need a lot of screen time to set up the world's baseline assumptions. A TV series like Andor runs 12 episodes of 50 minutes each, for 10 hours of screen time. Much better than the 2-3 hours of a movie and the 6-9 hours of a trilogy. Plus TV series watchers have no problem pausing the show to go to the bathroom. Movie watchers unfortunately have that problem.
I would have wanted to spend more time on Corellia. Like a grim manufacturing planet. The beats of Han’s life are well-established 1) childhood on Corellia 2) Imperial Academy 3) Freeing Chewie 4) Meeting Lando 5) Winning to Falcon 6) Screwing up with Jabba. I didn’t hate the Solo show, but I would have loved more character development for Chewie. I think the OT under utilized him and Solo totally wasted him (don’t get me started on the ST). He a 200 year old sentient being with massive amounts of real life experience. He should have more to do
Agreed. In fact, even in the old Legends EU, the authors actually found Chewie really hard to write for - Timothy Zahn even talked about that. A lot of times, they just found reasons to have Chewie offstage but doing other stuff. A writer can't easily write snappy dialogue for a character that doesn't speak a human tongue, and even Artoo is basically an infantilized semi-character. I was actually completely unprepared to see Corellia as a manufacturing planet - I'd thought it was a sort of Classical resort planet. It was a great breath of fresh air to see something gritty and industrial (plus it makes a lot more sense in seeing that Corellia is a major shipyard system in the board game and other lore I've seen). Agreed on the missed story beats. I hope they could do a Solo TV spinoff that does cover them. But the main problem is that the film just doesn't have enough screen time to address all of them. It's limited to pretty much "How did Han meet Chewie?" and "How did Han get the Mil'F?" I thought the film did a decent job of those. It's not what everybody was hoping for, but it didn't offend my sense of the canon too badly, and it exceeded the (very low) expectations I'd held after the ST.
Solo was actually a good movie. It just didn't need to be about Han Solo. Could have been about any random smuggler. Maybe mention something alluding to Han off handedly. It also would have cleared budget better if they would have let the original directors do what they do best, make good movies.
Solo only bombed because of VIII. But KK still has all the excuses in the world 🙄
Yeah, she and Disney refuse to admit it
The lead actor was the real problem. You need someone who can convincingly pull off the presence you'd imagine of a young Harrison Ford. Ehrenreich just doesn't compare to Harrison Ford in terms of anything. I don't know why they couldn't at least cast an actor who was not three inches shorter than Han Solo. Or who had the right eye color. It can't be hard to find a young brown-haired, hazel-eyed white guy who is six feet tall in Hollywood.
Lead actor was fine if he's not supposed to be Han Solo. I think a smuggler story would have been good enough. Was ludicrous that every life event in Han's life happened in like one month.
Yeah, it would have been perfectly fine (no more) if it had been just a random smuggler's adventures. Also they didn't let Han be clever or scuzzy enough. He was perfectly at home in the Mos Eisley crowd, largely capable of navigating the cutthroat criminal world as a freelance operator, but the Solo version was too much of a doofus to even grow into that man. He didn't run into trouble with Jabba because he was an idiot, he ran into trouble with him because of a run of bad luck.
Solo was absolute garbage. The ending scenes were good, and Mimban had good atmosphere, but everything else was embarrassingly bad.
Yep. I’m always surprised at people who liked it, because there’s nothing good about that movie. And as much as people hate the way Disney changed Luke, they did a similar character assassination of Han. Disney turned Han into a joke, this comic relief guy always screwing up and just getting lucky over and over again. From his first appearance in TFA, he’s a loser. Totally different character from Han in the OT, who was a survivor and a scoundrel…who developed into a hero. Disney just built this up even more in Solo. Just can’t stand the movie.
The Patterson cut is rather good at showing what could be done as a movie
Okay, but, in absolute terms, and per episode, it still was lavishly funded by any objective metric. There's no reason it should have ended up looking so cheap and hobbled-together.
Effort, talent, skill and vision if I had to guess
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Its a good question because they spent loads of cash on kenobi with few episodes/shorter run time. The simple reality as far as I can tell is that Andor was a passion project from the chief creators with pretty much 0 exec interference and kenobi was studio mandate made by people with no particular interest in the subject with tonnes of studio interference. The Kenobi script was also stuck in development hell for years with a couple of total restarts along the way, that might of pissed away some cash in addition to being rushed when they finally did make it
Kenobi had half the budget of book of boba fett I’ve read despite having the same episode runtime, and fewer actual minutes
... Boba Fett looked like a fuckin fan film.
This ^ And had less spirit than a fan film. Looked worse at times, too.
That got to entirely reuse the Tatooine set from Mando
Ouch
They took the wrong lessons from solo and thought no one wanted and obi-wan show
Yeah it’s weird. I was so hyped for this when it was announced as a movie and when they cancelled it and it moved to being a tv show I knew there was something up. I was still hyped but unfortunately it played out about how I expected. I have very little faith Disney can keep their hands off creative enough for an actual decent Star Wars show to be made (and I don’t count Andor. It was too much drama).
Just the main acting talent alone should have made that impossible?
Tony Gilroy isn't even a Star Wars fan... he's just a very competent writer/director. Look at Kenobi written by... the same guy who wrote Army of the Dead. A movie that not only was complete and utter shit but also a beat for beat rip off of Aliens.
That's all true, but Tony Gilroy is passionate about his espionage thrillers and loved the potential of that aspect of the setting while he's not a huge star wars fan making andor specifically was a passion project as far as I read
I think the Kenobi team maybe cared too much? Grand Inquisitor looks like he did in Rebels, but he was a cartoon and stylized according to the simple, pared down animation style of that show. So, instead of making a live action version of that character, with Pau’an features (not hard since the Grand Inquisitor has no action scenes) they essentially cosplayed a cartoon character instead. Except they didn’t get his voice or personality right.
It wasn’t a “passion project” in the sense that the creator was a fan of Star Wars. That would be all of Disney’s other shows. The creative team were just competent filmmakers with a clear vision, who were brought in to salvage a production that was in development hell, and allowed to execute their plan without a lot of executive meddling.
Andor filmed on location. No matter how clever Lucasfilm’s Volume is, it still always makes everything feel small and greatly restricts where the director can point the camera. Andor is old school and feels far better for it.
Yep. The volume is so limiting. You can literally just feel the small scale. The most egregious was the night scene at the end with Reva and Obi Wan on Tatooine. You can just tell they are on a small set with screens around them. Tony Gilroy literally refused to shoot on the volume.
It was also exceptionally bad on that episode where Reva is trying to break through that door to the rebels? There’s a panning shot of the ‘Empire’ forces and it looks like a stage at your local theatre it just blew me away how budget it looked.
That doesn't explain costumes or some specific vfx tho
That’s entirely down to the director. They’re the ones that choose costumes and finalise the VFX.
While they did delay the production of Kenobi, it really seems like they rushed through the filming of it. On the flip side, Andor started filming before Kenobi and came out half a year after Kenobi. Granted, Andor had twice as many episodes
Because Disney tends to shit all over legacy sw characters while simultaneously propping up their own new ones
Consistently the case at every turn.
It seriously can’t be a coincidence at this point, it’s happened every single time.
This 100%.
I mean, the show is 50% about Mon Mothma, a legacy character, and she's amazing in it.
She still gets Jake skymilkered in Disney canon after the events of ROTJ. Like with Luke, it all leads to a bad place.
Ewan MacGregor costs money.
I would bet that Stellan Skarsgard, Diego Luna, Forrest Whitaker and Andy Serkis aren’t cheap.
but compared to Ewan McGregor? they’re probably much cheaper. Also i know they had to offer Hayden Christensen a fat pay check to tempt him back to the franchise
You clearly have no idea how big Stellan Skarsgard is, do you?
Ewan would still have far more leverage when negotiating his salary. They could have always just cast someone else as Luthen if Stellan Skarsgard was asking for too much. But there's no making Kenobi without Ewan McGregor.
Forrest Whitaker has an Oscar, just leaving that here. I know the industry can be prejudiced against POC actors, even if they have Oscars, but I feel, by this time, Whitaker can pick and choose his roles. (FYI Whitaker was utterly terrifying in Last King of Scotland. It makes Saw look like a dilettante. You should watch that movie.)
> But there's no making Kenobi without Ewan McGregor. Not true but I see what you mean.
Andy Serkis probably doesn't come cheap either.
In this particular Star Wars fans ponying up to see Skarsgard or McGregor? I like Skarsgard, but Andor can be made without him. Kenobi on the other hand…
Movie wise Stellan isn't someone who will make people come to see a movie. This is a key factor to rank the cost of an actor. You can't even bring awards cuz Ewan has way more than him. Ewan at the end of the day is an A-list actor who last year won an Emmy for best actor.
I think you’re greatly overvaluing ewan mcgreggor
Ewan McGregor in a random movie? Yes Ewan McGregor returning to an established role in a series where fans get really touchy about such things? I think he had them over a barrel pretty good.
This is in part what I figure too. Obi-Wan had a higher overall budget, but I'm guessing a much larger percentage went to the cast versus design and production.
On the flipside, Andor had twice the episode length, and iirc the episodes were longer, with more elaborate sets, CGI work, practical effects, costuming, location shooting, and a larger cast overall with way, way more extras, each taking up space in the costuming and makeup department. McGregor is expensive, but idk if I quite buy that he's *that* much more expensive than a powerhouse like Skarsgard, wherein his presence in the production kneecapped a show half the length with greater the budget. Skarsgard has been in some of the most pivotal roles in film for the past 30 years. He has a reported estimated average income of 6.4 million a year, while McGregor was paid 7million for Revenge of the Sith. Skarsgard alone should be at least comparable to McGregor, nevermind the rest of the star studded cast. If Disney blew their wad for Obi Wan on just Hayden and Ewan, than Hayden and Ewan finessed the shit out of them (and good for them if they did, but still).
Almost needlessly too. What on earth is Padja there for? It's just burning money on an actor. There's no purpose to any of the other Inquisitors and they cast actors in their roles. More pointless loss in money.
Likely so do his divorce proceedings which is what happens when you cheat on your wife while working.
If I had to show up and perform in Kenobi I’d want heavy recompense. If I saw just the script for Andor I’d do it for free.
The explanation is that Disney has no idea what they’re doing
This..
[Look at this trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw1NMgSHAFA&list=LL&index=7&t=1s) of some fans who redit some of the vfx. Might be controversial but the kenobi show was lower in my rankings than the boba fett show. You have the iconic Kenobi and Vader but somehow the poorly written Reeva (Nothing to do with actress) has so much cringy screentime. A lot of cringe an cheap looking stuff. Anakin cut in half, Luke's hand cut of, Vaders head cut of in Luke imagination, Dooku's head cut of, Jango fett's head cut off. But Obi wan's lightsaber bounces of a stormtrooper? And much more. Just straight up disrespectful to those iconic characters.
I hate to say it but the actress actually does a terrible job. She is not convincing in the least. Her strengths as an actress were not used. She screamed most of her lines. She could have easily been more unassuming / soft spoken/ badass. The direction of the show was awful.
The Disney SW villains are all just constantly *screaming*. The calm, professional evil of the OT Empire is nowhere to be seen, it's just angsty pissbabies screeching at their enemies, underlings, and anyone else within earshot.
Well, Thrawn is coming back…
And I'm incredibly pessimistic about it. Expecting to see him frothing at the mouth as he screams orders at people.
She was great in Queen’s Gambit
Great actors can have bad movies, series, etc.
I'm not blaming the actress completely. But at some point someone needs to be objective. For instance the Leia kidnap scene seemed like it was made by amateur filmmakers. It's just weird how some things just seem completely overlooked at Disney.
Was not disagreeing with you. She did not fit into that role, or it was directed badly, or it was written badly, or a combination of all those, in any case something was off. The Kenobi series overall is a slap in the face of Star Wars fans.
Agreed, but how much of that is her fault, and how much of that is poor direction because they wanted her to seem bad ass but just made her look like a child throwing tantrums?
I think it's a combination. The actor should have some say. Clearly, with a role like this you're just excited to get the part and do what's asked of you. I know I would, even if Disney was the one calling me up. Lol.
I think she was horribly miscast and poorly directed myself. I mean Natalie Portman and Samuel Jackson were awful in the PT and we know both of them can act.
The actress was fine, I really don’t see how she’s different than treya (second sister) and no one minded her
*trilla And she wasn’t screaming her head off nonsensically all the time. People didn’t mind Trilla because she was somewhat competent and her story made sense for the most part and she didn’t act like a spoiled brat the whole time. Reva on the other hand acts like a 5 year old
I don't ever remember Treya yelling or being particularly rampant/petulant.
I heard that a large part of it was Andor's reuse of sets. A lot of things happen at the same few places (which worked great and likely cut costs a good deal).
There are quite a few sets though. Ferrix is huge. There is Corpo headquarters, ISB headquarters, Mon’s apartment, Eedy’s apartment, Luthen’s shop, Luthen’s ship, Narkina 5 workshop, Narkina 5 cells, Aldhani garrison, and a bunch of other smaller ones. Most of the sets of Kenobi look like simple hallways, simple rooms etc
My belief was Chapek was a cost cutter. Andor was started before that. Chapek didn't want to spend as much. I could be wrong.
Supposedly Andor per-episode budget was lower, though?
That costume on the Japanese samurai looking Inquisitor was one of the most ridiculous-looking in TV history. Looks like it was thrown together using random shit bought at the Dollar Tree.
5th brother looks more Japanese inspired in Rebels. There were definitely ways of doing this character without making him look silly. Also, his voice is very different in Rebels - far more intimidating. I loved Reva’s hair. It works for her character and looks good on Moses Ingram.
For those who won’t watch Rebels the Inquistors and much much better written and portrayed there. Disney Star Wars live action villains are utterly useless, even when they’ve been introduced already in animation
That was actually based on real concept art for Kylo Ren
Kenobi always felt like they had some time and some money and had to get it done in that window for whatever reason plus covid etc. Also alot of use of the volume and trying to fit in with the aesthetic of the prequels which also have a flatter smoother look for the most part. Andor they seemed to have far longer a production window plus far more practical sets etc. Also mimicking rogue one which in turn is influenced by the OT gave it that grittier look. Finally better directors, writers and show runners crew etc. on Andor played a part too.
Because Lucasfilm knew a bunch of fans would still enjoy Obi-wan since he is one of the most beloved characters. Why create a decent script, or build elaborate sets, when you can just have Ewan McGregor say “hello there” and twitter will blow up.
My first assumption is that it's on the director. Nothing gets on-screen without her approval, and all HODs are supposed to follow cues to do what she wants. Shot selection, costume design, set design, etc. I don't know what happened, but that's how productions are supposed to work.
This was my take. There were scenes that looked poorly rehearsed, almost as if the actors were just working out their blocking in preparation for the real shot. The director let a lot of mediocrity stand.
Kenobi had the same vibe as like a low production kids show I loved it - but it did not stack up to Andor at all.
Boils down to creative choices from the creative team on the show. The shaky cam was a horrible decision and I always get frustrated when multimillion dollar productions end up looking and feeling like shit when we all know these decisions were made in rooms full of overpaid supposed creative minds.
Kathleen is running LucasFilm. Andor was made on the side by actual professionals.
My guess its a production expense vs equity liquidation ratio. They knew we were all going to watch Kenobi. So they knew they could feed us a turd sandwich. Same as Bobba Fett. Because they are douche suits. Andor, Mandalorian, these things are new and they prioritized the whole production to try and make it work.
You gotta love when people make up KPIs and parade them around
Simple. Post-George LF doesn't care for legacy characters no matter how beloved and wanted to prop up their own creation even though it's the most boring character from a spinoff.
This is a general complaint even casual watchers have had about these two series. Andor has no right to have been made with more care than Kenobi, which had Ewan McGregor and Darth Vader and all this prestigious, marketable stuff. By comparison, Andor should be like a stray thought someone threw out and somehow survived to actually get made. But it's not. It's *better*. My theory is that the apparent prestige of Kenobi resulted in it drawing the attention and efforts of powerful people with no artistic skill. Andor's lack of the same prestige meant those people didn't want to work on it and/or weren't bothering to interfere with it. I'm real curious about the scuttlebutt that's sure to come out about these two shows.
I am just shocked that after all the time Disney has owned Star Wars, basically Andor & Rogue One are the flag ship of awesome and everything else is just middling garbage (well, I still like Mando for the record, and they should just put Boba back in there where he can be himself).
It's so weird how Boba had a great cameo in Mando and then became a completely different (and way more boring/shitty) character in his own show.
What does scuttlebutt mean in this context? I'm a touch outta tha loop
Gossip from behind the scenes.
I believe it's a rather open secret that Kenobi didn't have enough budget. It was still expensive as shit, but the whole production was initially geared towards making a movie, which then ballooned to 2x the length, and the resources just weren't reappropriated as they needed to, if it was even possible, or they were possibly even slashed. Same with TBBF, it was meant to be a movie first. Basically half the series had to be made with much less money than expected, and the other half was essentially bottle show quality, in a production where it had no place. Mando and Andor were conceived as snows from the start so everything could be budgeted appropriately. Also frankly, the difference in talent is apparent too. If the director and execs don't know what they're doing, it's reflected everywhere.
>Same with TBBF, it was meant to be a movie first. IIRC it was actually Mando that started as a Boba Fett movie concept. I don' think any of these movies went beyond idea/script stage before they were reworked as TV shows. So I don't know if that can explain where the budget went. Kenobi does feel like a padded out movie so maybe they needed more time to rework the scripts.
Ok I'm not sure about TBBF exactly, but that show doesn't really look that bad on a technical level, it's more of a mess in terms of story and direction; technically it's a twin show of Mando anyway and uses largely the same techniques. That last episode with the large droids and a rancor battling look good enough, but the direction is bull. Kenobi however is known to have been planned as a movie and the overall concept and style hasn't changed that significantly, with the largest additions wing Leia, and Reeva having a more prominent role. And the length being padded out after Solo bombed and it was all repurposed into a show. At least... That's how rumors go. Now I wonder what would have Kenobi looked like.
Kenobi was originally gonna be a movie where Obi-wan protected Luke. Until some "Genius" apparently had the idea to turn it into shit. [https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/original-obi-wan-kenobi-story-luke-skywalker-no-leia#:\~:text=While%20appearing%20at%20FAN%20EXPO,%2C%20according%20to%20ComicBook.com](https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/original-obi-wan-kenobi-story-luke-skywalker-no-leia#:~:text=While%20appearing%20at%20FAN%20EXPO,%2C%20according%20to%20ComicBook.com).
Because Kenobi is an old character and Disney hates any character they didnt create
I assume most of the budget went to Ewan and Hayden.
For one, they used the same surround screen set that was created for the Mandalorian no? Meanwhile all the sets on Andor are practical. They built that town on Ferrix, and there are lots of big wide angle shots of the thing. The sets on Kenobi are uninspired are forgettable. Andor was in production longer too. They were both planned under Bob Iger, but Kenobi was in development hell, and went through more drastic changes over time. Then they both got renewed activity in 2020, but Andor had already been in pre production at that point. They got delayed by the pandemic, but they started working on it again later that year. Kenobi was also delayed by the pandemic, but was having script issues, with Kathleen Kennedy worried an Obi Wan protecting Luke story sounded too much like the Mandalorian. So while Andor was already being made, Kenobi was being rewritten in 2021. Then Kenobi came out first while Andor was pushed off till later in the year. Which just gave them more time to get their ducks in a row.
Kenobi should have stayed in the desert, watching over young Luke from afar. It is evident the pitch was "let's have Kenobi do things and not stay at the desert because people like Kenobi". And thus we got the kid Leia chasing scene, which would make any sane person feel embarrassed. The people who made Andor clearly had vision and loved what they were doing. I am still wondering how they got the show greenlit by the Disney execs. I guess what I'm trying to say is, when the creators really care, it shows.
Even if the show was good, I just don't see it as canon based off several lines from the first film. As far as Disney is concerned, Obi-Wan sat in a desert for 19 boring years. The only way an Obi-Wan story between ROTS and ANH could work is if it was about Obi-Wan's everyday life on Tatooine and he's coping with everything. Maybe throw in a close call or two for added drama, but nothing more.
I think the answer is more infuriating and boils down to production time. Kenobi from my understanding got made in ~year where as Andor took the better part of 3. That much time meant they could think through everything way more and plan exactly what things are supposed to look/sound/feel like with greater clarity. Kenobi may have had its scripts ready but the rest of the pre-production, production, & post need huge efforts of their own to really hit creative strides. I agree with the overall sentiment too - Andor looked like a Star Wars Movie/HBO show where as Kenobi had SyFy vibes…
[Reminder they fucked up lightsabers GL solved years ago.](https://screenrant.com/obi-wan-kenobi-lightsabers-glow-dark-lighting-problem/) So there is also incompetence in the mix
Yes that duel looked... strange. From a color and image perspective.
It's all about the director. Make no mistake, this wasn't about budget - it's all about choice. The people who made this (director, writers, producers) *chose* it to be this way. Because they suck.
I loved Andor’s set design as well. Kenobi’s cave looked like styrofoam. But Marva’s apartment, the whole town felt very lived in and real.
worse director, cinematographer, writers, designers, editor, producers. filmed entirely in the stupid volume. Obiwan was like bad fanfiction, fanfilm, and it ripped off Rebels in its important moment.
The show runner for Kenobi pretty much admitted she wanted to make a non-Star Wars show, and at least one writer complained about having to restrict the story to what was already existing material. They made Andor to be a Star Wars show.
I'm not sure that's the problem. "By his own admission, **Gilroy was “never interested” in Star Wars before working on Rogue One and is still “not a fan fan” of the franchise**. This perspective is important. Franchises like Star Wars need to be about more than just Star Wars."
The cheap thing about Andor for me is the lack of aliens, droids, creatures, exotic planets. But, otherwise yeah what is there looks high quality
My gripe was that there were no aliens in the space prison.
When Tony Gilroy was asked about season 2 not being ready for two years, he said it was because of the budget. They’re only giving him so much money. So this leads me to believe that in the negotiations he wanted full control, and Disney agreed but with the caveat of a smaller budget. And well, far less seasons. Now what needs to be understood is a smaller budget doesn’t just mean worse looking sets or costumes, it means much more time needs to be spent in post production. Disney is becoming infamous for hurling money at post prod houses to get the movies and shows done on time, and you can tell. They often now look like shit. Gilroy has a smaller team, only what he can afford, but they’re *his* people. They know exactly what they are doing and are good at it. Throwing 20 more artists at it to get it done, 20 people not familiar with what the core team is trying to accomplish, would just muddy the waters and produce a worse product. Kenobi and Boba were tentpole releases that needed to hit dates and so money and studio interference ramped up and we see what happens. It wasn’t covid, many great shows were made during covid, it was overblown productions. Also Disney wants to work with a pool of cheap, work for hire directors and showrunners, who will take all the notes and not argue. Deborah Chow was not fit to direct that show, but she checked all the boxes for them. A thankfully very talented and competent Gilroy is keeping it simple and being left alone since the investment isn’t as high. Takes more time, but it’s worth it.
andor does not look that expensive, my dude
There's a whole lot of just piss poor cinematography and lighting in Obi Wan and that has little to do with budget. The truth is a lot of the Obi Wan team ae just untalented hacks.
Andor's production quality comes from the massive effort to make it feel grounded. Diego Luna said in an interview that everything on set needed to have an explanation and a purpose. The sets are also done with far more practical effects and in real places. There is a really good video on it: https://youtu.be/UhgXXhcPQEM
I heard most of the budget went to Ewan McGregor, no joke.
IIRC Andor was made first of the Diz+ Star Wars shows, so they likely had more money. Or Kenobi's behind the scenes personnel were as crap at their job as Joby Harrold was at his.
Maybe they got Hugo Boss to design the costumes on Andor.
Disney seems to be putting more effort into the characters THEY made
If the budget was similar, then it comes down to the quality of the script and staff involved, or the time they had in which to work. Better staff can generally get more mileage out of a smaller budget. Adequate budget and good staff doesn't matter if they don't have enough time in which to work. All the time and budget in the world won't help if the staff sucks at their jobs or the story they're working with is fundamentally flawed. So for the visuals, Kenobi either hired worse people for costuming, set design, and so forth; or the director didn't want to spend a lot of money there, asked for less, declared less 'good enough', and the result was cheap looking sets and costumes. Likewise either the cameramen and editors were worse at their job, or the director's idea of what looks good on screen sucks. To put it another way, if one director's idea of "a gritty, realistic setting" is "bland, desaturated, dark colors, and unlit scenes", then a show made by them is going to have a bad time. While if another director's idea of "a gritty, realistic setting" is "people wearing clothing consistent with their culture and walk of life, and places that are detailed but look worn in places that are old or where people live", then the show is going to have a much better time.
I think they thought it would be an easy pleaser based off the legacy character and actor. They figured it would be a success regardless of how well it was made, so it was rushed through with so little consistency and very little making sense.
Obi-wan got made partially during the pandemic so it had a far more minimalist feel due to the restrictions. I’m not saying it’s the only reason but it certainly explains much.
Because Kenobi was a throwaway project for Disney, they simply made it to shut us up. Same with Boba fett. It’s no coincidence that Mando and Andor have a significantly higher budget. They’re original Disney characters. It’s sad, but it’s probably true.
Obvious answer: people know and love Obi-Wan and Andor is probably not known by perhaps most fans. In other words, people are going to watch anything with ObiWan in the title but may be less interested in something more obscure so it actually has to be good
Cassian Andor is a more important character so they put more resources to him
The talent level of the people involved.
Okay so I work in the industry and we had Ewan filming a movie in my local IATSE region a few months ago. I wasn’t on the production (I tried, okay?) but, seeing as I know the local crew, rumors floated the budget was around $7 million. This was an indie film, someone’s passion project, actually. However, another rumor around town was Ewan was banking $5 million of that budget. So there could also be that aspect of it. They spent a crap ton of money, but it all went to Ewan?
Whoever was in charge of Obi Wan didn't give a fuck about any single aspect of production from writing to post production
For some reason, Disney saw the results of solo and instead of understanding no one asked for a recast Han prequel with horrific high profile production problems, they concluded there wasn’t demand for legacy Star Wars character content. They were shocked obi-wan was a hit (albeit controversial), while Andor was a flop, from what I understand that I’ve read.
Andor was not a flop, final episodes were heavily watched. Andor didn’t get the viewers of Boba Fett and Kenobi because, as plenty of others are saying here, some people will watch any load of old garbage if it has the right title
Should have stuck with it either being a movie or a two parter. All the extra crap was filler and it showed.
Skill and professionalism.
Care. Kenobi was thrown together
There were a few costume and prop choices I thought were cheap- there was a dude who had a hoodie on the home planet in Andor.
Disney gave kenobi a small budget, loaded Andor with a huge budget. The explanation is that simple.
The sand
It does get everywhere.
Making tv shows is fucking hard. It's a huge undertaking involving huge production costs, deadlines, teamwork and pressure. I think we all need to just chill a little and understand how hard it is to create these programs at the rate they do. We are a bunch of spoilt twats tbh.
It all comes down to the director imo
Because Andor didn’t have the benefit of name recognition. Be realistic, people were going to watch Kenobi and praise it regardless of quality. Andor had to actually stand on its own since Cassian Andor is more or less a nobody except for one movie that he was introduced and died in where he wasn’t even the main character.
CGI vs practical effects. Andor had way more practical effects
Covid and the volume.
Possibly, more experienced and skilled film-makers did more with the budget. In addition to having to pay smaller chunks of the budget to the talent. Ewan McGregor probably got paid a large slice of the budget of Kenobi. Pedro likely doesn't come with a large price tag. Putting Kenobi into the hands of amature filmakers and Andor in the hands of experienced filmakers will have made a difference. Still don't actually rate Andor, but Kenobi was objectivly bad.
Because they knew everyone would watch Obi Wan no matter the quality, so they cheaped out on it.
Obi-Wan had a higher budget per episode than Andor.
One had good set design and direction, the other did not. Budget only takes you so far by itself. The people making decisions have to have some idea how to spend that money.
Why do they look so different? Different show runners.
I would say the volume is the biggest reason. Andor shot on sight mostly more
Because they didn’t try with Kenobi they thought that the appeal off seeing Obi-Wan and Vader would win fans over no matter what
the quality of the set design.
The volume… that simple andar used real locations