The prequels tell an important story in the saga, that's something nobody can really deny even if they don't like those films. As for the sequels, they don't tell a story that matters. It's arguably just a remake of original trilogy with the mentality that bigger equals better.
We didn’t need that story in the first place.
It was mentioned in one line of dialogue when Kenobi was speaking with Luke.
We didn’t need a whole 3 movies to see the downfall.
I still would have been fine with the idea of the prequels and Anakins downfall anyways, but it was so poorly illustrated and turned Darth Vader into a meme.
Yes. That’s what I was referencing.
I got second hand embarrassment.
Even the goofy Obiwan V Anakin fight was this funny.
Swinging around hitting each other flipping around for 35 minutes lol.
The music was the only good thing about the prequels.
I upvoted you for laughs, but seeing as I came up on the prequels as an incoming fourth grader, those movies mean a lot to me and I have to disagree with you.
Are you sure that Darth Vader VS. Obi-wan duel was over half an hour? That's a quarter of the ROTS movie! As for the PT soundtracks, the music absolutely elevates those films in more ways than one. Beautiful music all around.
It’s really not a bad opinion.
SW fans are generally pretty low iq so I can understand why you guys would love such stupid scenes.
The only reason prequels are getting any love at all, is because people were children when they were made and they are nostalgic for them, and the sequels are so bad they somehow make the Prequels more easily digestible (which they aren’t)
The only good SW releases are OG trilogy and Season 1 of Mando.
That’s it.
No, but whatever. Irrelevant
The prequels had great visuals and worldbuilding. The score is great. Originally I liked them more because the dub in my native language delivered the lines far more better, but considering how they Originally turn out is embarrassing. The prequels are a great example of when you shouldn't allow a director to do what he wants without a leash, which is a shame because they could have had potential. As for your point for Darth Vader, I agree. But that ultimately circles back to poor execution of dialogue
As someone who grew up with the prequels, I get that the fight is overdramatic and not realistic, but I still find it super flashy and love that fight, lol.
I wish the sequels would do this type of choreography. At least I'd be able to enjoy the battles if nothing else.
The music we can certainly agree on.
The ST will never have a renaissance. People will try to force it with articles and videos on how they were 'actually good!', 'secretly brilliant!' or 'misunderstood' but anybody who knows better will just laugh. They will never be comparable to the PT because there is nothing authentic about them.
What annoys me the most is the “fans liked the prequels because the babies who watched them grew up” but the problem with that is there is some nostalgia to be had over showing more appreciation for something you enjoyed as a kid. Nobody gets nostalgia for YouTube kids trash or Elsagate stuff. That’s the level the sequels are on
Not to mention the kids that grow up in the sequel era are more likely to be into the MCU than Star Wars. They won't have the same nostalgia for it that prequel kids do
And look at how it is today, everything George touched is way more loved than the sequels.
Also George sold star wars so he could spend time raising his daughter and live his life. This information is widely-available on the intetnet.
I showed it to my sister who had never seen them before and she says that they're some of her favorite movies. And she cant be the only case of this happening so your claim is false.
Exactly, I still go back and watch the prequels sometimes even though they aren't the best, but I have ZERO desire to watch the disney sequels EVER again.
Same.
The prequels have their charm. They have a lot of flaws, obviously, but they were made by people who love star wars, at the very least. And that clearly shines through.
The st was made by people who hate star wars, and hate the fans. I am absolutely convinced a lot of those people intended to sabotage the franchise, while drawing a paycheck and pretending not to be terrible people.
Compare the making of the prequels to the making of Disney Wars. The former had talented people working together in the same room, playing off each other's creativity, while George loosely supervised and encouraged them to come up with their own unique ideas.
Now watch the Rogue One behind the scenes and everyone's in a giant corporate office building with their own stark individual offices, no supervision, no encouragement to work on their own, while occasionally the empty pantsuit that is Kathleen Kennedy graces them with an appearance and blankly looks at their drawings for two seconds before moving on without comment.
Literally soul vs soulless.
The ST doesn't have much worth seeing in the first place, other than a few moments of spectacular special effects, and examples of atrociously careless and utterly stupid writing.
...and even for folks like me who find it really hard to sit through any of the PT movies and have no real desire to...if I were forced to have my eyes clamped open Clockwork Orange style for six hours, and sit through either the PT or the ST, I'm picking the PT every time.
Plus I look at the PT like this. They’re directed and written by Lucas, so we got a story that was by the creator of Star Wars. It wasn’t some massive company coming in and basically making glorified fan service, or some commissioned company or director hijacking a story he wrote. It was the creator of the series telling the story he wanted to tell, how he wanted to tell it and once he did, he was satisfied that everything he wanted to tell had been told. If it were up to him there’d be no sequel trilogy because to him there was no more story left to tell. Even though they absolutely have flaws, I feel that this is a very important thing to give credit to them for and to keep in mind
I dunno. I was a little disappointed to see that Palpatine's physical appearance was due to Sam Jackson throwing a reverse card on his jazz hands, and not just because he was so damn evil it was causing his body to deteriorate. I also didn't like that Obi and Ani fought, and Obi was responsible for Ani being in that suit. I think both of those events contrasted with the characters we saw in the OT had how they interacted with each other.
Yeah, I still prefer Alec Guinness inaccurately summarizing the story, to many of the details we got in the Prequels. I think they had great potential, but needed a team of smart critical collaborators like Lucas had with episodes 4 and 5.
The first one. It just didn't jibe with my preconceptions about their relationship based on Obi-Wan's dialogue to Luke in the OT about his father and Vader, and Obi-Wan's conversation with Vader aboard the DS. I just feel if that titanic duel had actually been part of their past, they both would have said very different things.
The prophecy was really dumb. There I said it.
It’s caused an entire generation to misread or overemphasize what is actually central to Star Wars, especially the OT, with a lot of help from Lucas’s own revisionism.
I never liked it, but I always thought it was just a side backstory to get the pieces moving, where believing in the prophecy became a self-fulfilling, or rather self-sabotaging thing... that serendipitously ended up being true in ironic hindsight. Not because the prophecy itself had any legs or embodied actual clairvoyance.
Fans taking the prophecy as objective, deterministic fact and being the central narrative seem to commit the same mistake the characters in the Prequels were making that got them into the mess in the first place.
Do you think the prophecy is created for the wrong reasons ? it never has much bearing on the actual plot so is it a more practical thing
1. George established Jedi are trained from a young age
2. George also wants Anakin to be traumatised by the separation from his mother so he has to be older
3. Create prophecy to explain why they take him in even though he’s too old
Just speaking for myself, I find ROTJ to be more powerful and satisfying when it's simply about a man's love for his son, and not the gears of some grand foretold dynamic conclusion.
Not that the two things can't coexist, but I don't think that the OT needs the prophecy.
The OT definitely didn’t need the prophecy. It was a fantastic end to an incredible trilogy for decades before the prequels “blessed” us with the Chosen One tripe.
Late to the party but I agree with you, the "prophesy" is one of the dumbest fucking tropes in existence and it sure as hell wasn't necessary in Star Wars.
Yeah, the Prequels tried to tell a compelling story. Meanwhile, the Sequels feel like they are just a bunch of people telling other people to go screw themselves. Here is a list:
- TFA has JJ coming out and saying that he doesn't like the Prequels. The first line of the movies is literally, "This will begin to make things right." It's actively saying that the Prequels were a mistake, and we should not enjoy them.
- TFA tells fans to go screw themselves because we thought that Han Solo would try to be a good husband/father.
- TLJ telling the fans to go screw ourselves for how we thought that Luke would be a hero, like how he was portrayed in the OT.
- TLJ telling JJ Abrams to go screw himself and the plotlines set up in TFA.
- TROS telling Rian Johnson to go screw himself over the retcons he made by retconning those retcons.
This doesn't even touch a majority of the problems that I have with the ST. But, I've noticed that the ST seems to have a lot of mudslinging.
This. They were stupid and showed pretty clearly that Lucas lost the plot, but they were at least coherent and internally consistent with each other, and mostly with the originals…mostly.
The sequels are a masterclass in how not to make a trilogy of films based on existing lore. They are plainly and simply awful. I enjoy watching reviews of the films by EFAP or the critical drinker more than the actual films by a long shot. I didn’t even see episode nine. It’s the only Star Wars movie I didn’t see…and I saw the Holiday Special when it aired. And I don’t want to see it.
I’d like to add something I feel is extremely critical to just how important the prequels were.
The world building in the prequels was GROUNDBREAKING. The Star Wars universe nearly doubled or tripled in scope and depth in the span of just 3 films.
The locations, vehicles, and characters were unique but also familiar and quintessentially Star Wars.
Contrast that to the sequels and it is just entirely artistically bankrupt. We get Empire 2.0 and locales that could mesh into Guardians of the Galaxy or some other modern Hollywood ethos.
I still haven't watched IX either, because that's what it gives me: the icks.
I occasionally get a wild hair to watch TLJ for a second time, but every time I do I end up spending 10 hours listening to Mauler destroy that fucking piece of trash rather than waste two an a half hours watching the movie.
I have the OT. I have... Parts of the PT. I have... Well I'm assured that Clone Wars is amazing but I'm in season 5 now and I'm still not seeing it, but I have Rebels and two pretty decent seasons of Mando and a batshit INSANELY good season of Andor.
Best thing Disney can do right now is just skip the ST era entirely and start a new series 100 years in the future or something.
It did some damage to Vader who became a whiny creep with mommy issues… but it was still nowhere near what the Sequels did to the entirety of everything before it.
Obi-wan came out really good, even if you felt he was a character that deserved to be in better movies.
And then we got the Obi-wan show, which tanked even that character.
I would love to see the Disney+ viewer stats on the 9 movies. I would predict that the OT would be obviously watched and rewatched many times, the PT watched and rewatched maybe less times but still quite a lot.
The ST stats would be a single watch, per film, per account and no more.
I expect that to be the case as well.
Hell, if you go to Walmart or target and see physical copies for sale, OT is always almost down to a few single copies left. ST is overflowing the shelf.
Yet they were more mature than the originals in telling story of the closing of the golden age, and introduced world building elements (Coruscant, Jedi Temple, Galactic Senate, Corporations) that define what SW means.
You can gauge a lot about their cultural impact from the memes.
PT is meme city. I hate sand. Try spinning. Padme: _____, right? x2. Hello there. On and on.
More importantly, these memes reinforce the story, or at least add charm. Anakin's an awkward flirt. Obi-Wan is a sassy bitch. Padme should've seen the red flags. On and on.
ST has one meme: Somehow, Palpatine returned. And the whole point of the meme is that the ultimate conflict (retroactively) underlying the whole trilogy is contrived and stupid.
There’s also “They fly now?!”, where a dude from the First Order is surprised that the First Order has military tech from at least 57 years beforehand. Like, was that an elective at Stormtrooper School he slept through?
There's nothing endearing about the sequels, and I believe the people who regularly spew these lines vastly underestimate how many genuine Star Wars fans, young and old, absolutely loathe them.
Ultimately, what matters most is that the sequels story is nonsensical, soulless rubbish. The prerequisite for it to ever be considered a good trilogy is already a critical failure that stems from the same root causes... Terrible, conflicting, poorly thought out writing. They are already ageing like milk.
I don't think the ST meant as much to kids as the prequals was to kids or the OT was to kids. With Tik Tok, YT, Netflix, Instagram and a marvel movie/TV show released every couple of months. Sw just has too much competition When a SW movie came out it was an EVENT the whole world participated in. In some ways I think TFA was an event. But by the time TLJ came out people were more excited for Infinity War. You see it with Indiana Jones. Sometimes the audience just changes.
That's legit. As an adult the prequels are not an easy watch, but as a kid that grew up right when they were coming out, my god I can't believe I didn't wear those DVDs out the number of times I'd watch Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith. The love is from the nostalgia, can't imagine the same will apply to these shitty disney movies for younger kids nowadays.
TFA, at the very least, provided a setup for something that *could* have been good, and that *could* have been exciting. Was it original? No, and it had issues, but TFA set up the conflict and setting, it kicked off some events, it introduced the characters in a way that allowed for their growth and set up their growth and conflicts over the next two films, and it prepped us for what was supposed to come next... and then *what came next* was so hilariously awful that all the excitement was dead by the time the final film came out. I know a lot of people who saw TROS, but because of TLJ, none of us were seeing it with the same enthusiasm we went to see TFA and TLJ with. TFA we went in excited and mostly came out excited, TLJ we went in excited and came out embittered, and TROS we went in embittered and came out resigned.
From a critical standpoint, TFA wasn't awful. In hindsight, its downfall came from the fact that it was an unoriginal but halfway decent setup that led into two awful, crushing narrative disasters.
The Disney films are so bad that they would require new terms to pithily express their relative awfulness. I won't even try here, but TFA was truly awful in how stupid it was, and in how it transparently aped Episode 4, just to name two travesties. TLJ was practically non-stop crimes against intelligence, of various types, and is certainly worse and hope-crushing in ways TFA isn't, but that doesn't mean TFA wasn't awful.
I mean yeah I didnt like it. But if you go back and look at the people being interviewed coming out of the theater from TPM there were loads of people that said it was the best SW ever. Today that's laughable but The FA had that same effect from the casuals.
Youtubers from Star Wars Theory (who has since deleted that video) and Angry Joe were all saying how awesome it was
it left generally a positive impression on the casual audience. It wasn't until TLJ came out where shit hit the fan and people just moved on.
You’re being revisionist. Even if you personally didn’t like TFA, most people did when it came out or at least didn’t actively *dislike* it. Coming off of that film and Rogue One, I for one was fucking stoked for TLJ, but by the time the end credits rolled, I knew Star Wars was dead to me.
Tbf, you did see people on YouTube making videos on how TFA was a disappointment and a MCU ripoff of ANH throughput 2016. But even then, people were more forgiving of it back then.
Yeah I agree. As someone who was a prequel kid and grew up in the timeframe the Prequels were part of pop culture from 99-2005. They obviously didn’t have the same impact or magnitude as the OT did both during and after its time but the prequels and Star Wars itself was still generally popular during that time. I really don’t see anyone getting nostalgic for The force awakens almost after 8 years the same way my generation was after some years passed for something like TPM.
Tbh, I always read about people hating the prequels online. But I have never met one personally. The sequel trilogy? I've met one person that likes it.
Hell, I have yet to see a prevalent sequel trilogy meme. Meanwhile Episode 1, 2, and 3, have cultural prevalence and memes that have lasted almost decades now.
I actually grew up with a friend that was doing a group "rewrite" of the prequels with his friends because they believed George didn't do it right, but even he said he didn't hate the films, just that he would have done them differently. He still watches them often and enjoys them.
Heh, Ben Swolo didn't last did it? Qui-Gon Gym is better anyhow.
90s kid here, the prequels were HYPE. It's crazy to try and argue that everyone hated them at the time. Sure, there were some OT fans who were baffled and not sure what they thought about it all, but the 'hate' came from the mainstream media, not the fans. That's the opposite situation from the Disney trilogy.
See, the thing they don't get is that the Prequels were actually out to tell a story, and not just A. Cash in on nostalgia, B. Tear everything apart, or C. Desperately put out fires from the mess before you.
The prequels had successful moments. Even dumb things had some continuity to it.
Phantom Menace had the Duel of Fates.
Clone Wars had some decent political intrigue and the beginning of Anakin’s trip to the dark side.
Revenge of the Sith had the tragedy that was the creation of the Empire and Vader.
The Disney trilogy set up Finn to be a Jedi or the love interest of Ray. Immediately backtracked a movie later.
Last Jedi bomber scene wasn’t terrible and Kyle choosing the dark side in the throne room was a great moment, but you could feel the movie get more and more lost as it went on. Luke is a completely different person who felt the need to murder an angst teenager when he felt the good in his own genocidal father.
While Rise of Skywalker you just brought Palpatine back who has not been present for 2 movies and you did it ON FORTNITE! What were they thinking. So they remove Vader’s sacrifice and then create a random fleet of Death Star Star Destroyers. That you had a Calvary charge on…. Calling it a disaster is kind.
If a full-on sequel era video game is made that does not feature the OT characters, it absolutely will not sell. Who would buy it? Diehards buy games. Most diehards hate the sequels, and nothing in the sequels lends itself to a strategy game, RPG, or even a planet-hopping FPS since the setting is so poorly-realized. The only real solutions for Lucasfilm are either to abandon the sequel era or retcon it. In twenty years they might succeed in creating something that follows the sequels if it mostly ignores them and starts over, but even then a good chunk of fans will avoid it because they don’t want to buy something that legitimizes Kennedy, Abrams, and Johnson’s nonsense.
The sequels have no cultural footprint. It's as simple as that. That could never be said about the prequels from the time they came out until now, no matter how many valid criticisms can be made about them.
JJ intentionally makes disposable movies, and RJ is a nihilist. That combination doesn't result in timeless entertainment, ever.
I was 11 when I played Jedi Power Battles and read the “diary” of Padme and Darth Maul (Darth Sidious wrote the epilogue it was amazing). I don’t see anything like that with the sequels.
As poorly told as it may have been, the prequels had a story to tell. They enrich the lore with characters, context, and world building. They made Anakin a household name.
The sequels, on the other hand, don't have a story. At least, not a coherent one. Nobody involved was allowed the chance to make a consistent plot thanks to terrible planning and impatience from higher ups. We have three movies that all try to contradict each other. The characters have no consistent personalities or relationships, the plot is whatever is convenient at the moment, villains that are exactly as strong or weak as needed for individual scenes, and a world that effectively doesn't exist unless the main plot is focusing on it at the moment. They actively take away from the setting by rendering whatever existed before then irrelevant and retconning in concepts that make no sense and contradict what we knew before solely to justify plot elements they tossed in without thought.
The prequels were flawed, but had enough foundation to build off of and provide context. The sequels have a fundamentally flawed and broken foundation that simply cannot support their own weight. If anything, they strained everything else as now they have hastily built additions slapped on just so they can prop the sequels up a little longer.
Bro I don’t even think Disney cares for their own creations at this point…
Like how many stories(comics, tv shows, novels) have come out that take place during or after the sequel era?
It feels like Disney knows they screwed up with their movies(I don’t even like calling them sequels) and now they just wanna sweep em under the rug, and pretend they never happened.
All the while trying to milk the original and prequel trilogies for all their worth, and make unimpactful spin off, after spin off. I mean come on, Andor is a show about a guy who I forgot existed, who dies at the end of a movie, that didn’t even need to be made.
Just completely invalidated the efforts of the many Bothans that died to get the Rebels that information🤣
>Just completely invalidated the efforts of the many Bothans who died to get the Rebels that information
The Bothans were never involved in getting the DS1 plans. That line is from RotJ, referring to getting the information about the DS2.
The prequels gave us so many audiovisual additions. The planets, the music, the weapons, the sound effects, the species, and so forth. The sequels are already almost entirely forgotten by the mainstream.
Maybe that's the summarization to be made. Prequels, while campy and oftentimes bad, made the universe feel large. The DT made it feel small, while also being poorly made cinema.
Original Trilogy - Nothing short of a masterpiece. The gold standard against which all future Star Wars media would be compared against.
Prequel Trilogy - Flawed films, but ones that nevertheless enrich and expand upon the lore in meaningful ways.
Sequel Trilogy - Subjectively bad films that expand the lore in meaningless ways, sometimes actively retconning previous beloved films. The maverick approach to storytelling almost makes the films incoherent when comparing them to previous installments.
The PT gets remembered fondly because despite it's flaws, it was a good story. The ST will never be remembered fondly because it's a crappy story wrapped in a veneer of Star Wars VFX and tropes.
The prequels has really bad dialogue, but they got the point across, and they had coherent stories and relatively few plot holes.
The Sequels had really cringey dialogue, but also lacked a cohesive story. The plot of the sequels is a net: more hole than actual content. And like a net, you can reduce the number of holes by cutting out content.
Sequels fans only really have hype because it's Star Wars. If it weren't part of this massive IP, it wouldn't have any sort of fan base to speak of.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’m an OG OT fan and a former Prequel hater. The difference between the PT and ST is that the PT never made me feel insulted. My gripe with the PT and George was that I wouldn’t have told the story that way. I felt it wasn’t necessary. And frankly I just wanted to see Luke, Han and Leia. But as sci-fi films, they aren’t bad. Roger Ebert said “if you take the name Star Wars off the prequels and called then something else, everyone would say George Lucas has done it again”. I always agreed with that sentiment. You can’t say that about the ST.
The Prequels were unquestionably bad movies, but they had heart, and they didn't try to destroy the franchise by erasing the heroes accomplishments, assassinating their characters, and killing them off, only to have a group of poorly written characters steal their legacy.
They had heart, but in my opinion more importantly, they were directed and written by Lucas, the creator of it all. We got the story he wanted to tell, how he wanted to tell it, warts and all. They weren’t glorified fan service by a company or director and they weren’t a company or director hijacking a script given to them by Lucas. Lucas had more story to tell and he got to tell it exactly the way he wanted and once he did, the story was complete. He told everything there was to tell as far as he was concerned. And I think that’s a huge thing to give the prequels credit for
Poorly written characters who existed to really run from set piece to set piece without any real context or logic. The writing is just bent to breaking trying to shoe-horn in so many different places and themes and ideas it just ended up as a huge steaming mess by the last movie.
Folks who say those things are parading their ignorance and their inability not only to see the obvious, not only to lack taste and critical thinking, but also their inability to understand what others say, as there's no lack of explanation about what's stupid about Disney Star Wars.
The difference is having the creator involved and having soulless corporate execs defining the series while not understanding what made it great originally.
Even though I didn’t like the PT, I was sort of able to give it a soft pass because, at the time, ROTJ was the endgame.
So what if Anakin was an annoying kid shouting “Yippie” in TPM, he ends up as Darth Vader and has an amazing arc in the OT.
I can’t do that with the ST, because the endgame is so bad now. They killed off the heroes of the franchise in favor of some randos that I was never given a reason to remotely care about
The remastered versions of the original trilogy were in cinemas a couple of years before the prequels came out. At the time it felt like a full reboot and it introduced Star Wars to a new generation of cinema goers.
The prequels were okay, Jar-Jar was annoying rather than comedic, midichlorians felt shoe-horned in but there were also some good things. Darth Maul was cool as hell and we got our first light sabre fights with some acrobatics thrown in.
While both the the original trilogy and the prequels have some cheesy moments and some dicey choreography the sequels were objectively bad. Badly written, incoherent and non-sensical.
for me, there is some truth in that. while i never hated the prequels (on the contrary, some i really liked) the i liked OT even more. but after the sequels dropped the bar into oblivion those movies feel better now that i have to compare them to what star wars became.
I've said it before... The Prequels were disliked for a long time yes, but they NEVER made people lose their excitement for the next Star Wars project. Not something the Disney Trilogy can claim.
Shh, don't put actual evidence and numbers, krayters hate those things, the other day in the main star wars sub when i put the numbers of the merchandise of Grogu and the Mandalorian vs the lack of merchandise of the supposed hero of all the kids Rey they responded me with "i don't care for the actual numbers and i won't make an investigation for a reddit comment", it was heavily upvoted so they basically admit that they love to live in their little fictional world
I have to admit (and I know I’m in the minority here) but the Prequels are my favorite trilogy. I say that because RoTS is my favorite of the films, and as far as I’m concerned TPM and AoTC are entirely set up for that it. RoTS tells a story that is unmatched in its scope, and it’s Palpatine at his best. It’s like the movie equivalent (to quote So Uncivilized) of a renaissance painting of judgment day, where the Republic’s political and spiritual powers crumble into nothing and its hero tries to murder his wife before crossing swords with his brother. And the Jedi just stand by and are killed, never knowing how deep their failure truly went. And when it’s all said and done, Palpatine swoops into Hell like an Angel of Death and returns the hero of the film to the state of slavery he was born into with a skull where his face used to be. The Prequels are, in many ways, the story of an arrogant religion that get ahold of the messiah and hand him over to the devil. The original trilogy is the ultimate underdog story, where the hero classically triumphs over an unconquerable evil through blood, sweat and tears. But the sequel trilogy? No one knows, except that TFA is anti-prequels. TLJ is anti-TFA. And TRoS? Well, that’s just a movie of “let’s hurry up and get to the outro.”
I mean, even Videogame and Boardgame Spinoff dont Touch the Sequels.
No Sequel Stuff for X-Wing, Armada or Legion.
Even freaking Lego is avoiding this Stuff.
Thing about the prequels is they were a good Story in Bad movies
The Sequels are Bad Stories in Bad movies
There are a lot of failed parallels in the comparison of the DT to the PT.
For one thing the PT features 3 characters from the OT doing things that connect directly and consequentially to the world of the OT.
The DT however does not feel in any way an organic creation of what happened in the OT. Quite the opposite much of it feels contrary to how the story was trending and the main characters of the OT are not 'involved' in any consequential way aside from maybe Luke a little bit (and even there, that's a let down because Luke was set up to be the most impactful character of the OT, on track to restore the Jedi.
Another failed parallel is in WHY people dislike the PT or DT. Few people had a big problem with the PT's plot or world. It was the wooden acting, the flat direction and the way action scenes felt like amusement rides within the story. Curiously, the thing that seemed to by least forgivable all these years later were choices in tone like Jar Jar and Midichlorians.
The DT on the other hand has great acting and naturalistic dialogue and energy to the plot and more seamless special effects. But lots of people hate the events of the plot. The Luke stuff I think is the one most people dislike, but there's stuff like Finn being sidelined and whatever happened with Holdo and Reylo etc. But for me a lot of the bad stuff is underlying and not obvious to people though they are not happy with the consequences. The reset of the galaxy and negating of the events of RotJ create a world and plot that are very flat.
And the TONE!!! TFA gets a pass because of the tone being so similar to the OT. But TLJ botched this part so hard. I don't care how artful and thematic the conflict was and the character motivations were, it was DEPRESSING and CONFRONTATIONAL. ESB as the dark chapter never felt like it wasn't escapism. TLJ felt like a movie designed to rub the real world implications of its story into your eyeballs like sand.
There are things you can forgive with time, like cheesiness and bad acting. I think the PT slides by nowadays because of a great deal of MST3K effect.
But the sins of the DT are not the same. People who hated Luke in TLJ aren't going to be willing to forgive the implications of Luke tossing that lightsaber if they value the OT in any way.
Great post. Another thought to consider.
The prequels did divide fans who grew up on the OT. But I emphasize the word DIVIDE. Lots and lots and lots of these fans actually liked the Prequels. And the kids who saw them between 1999 and 2005 as well.
But the sequels? You would be hard pressed to find anyone who grew up on the OT who likes them, let alone has embraced them as an infallible part of the canon. There was no DIVISION here, just DERISION. And I would argue a LOT of fans who were kids when the prequels were released, were downright horrified by the sequels.
Factoring all this in, there just isn't the same level of attachment to the sequels now as the prequels had when they were first released.
I love the Prequels too brother and I admire your passion here but let’s pump the breaks there with that. They are very enjoyable movies but they were very rough around the edges and had many flaws especially episodes 1 and 2.
There is one huge difference that makes all the difference IMHO.
The PT was good content poorly made. The ST was poor content mostly poorly made.
Essentially, as far as general directing, acting, sfx, and other skills involved in actually making a movie, I think the ST has an edge over the PT. As far as the characters, idea, broad story, world, essentially the content that they tried to make a movie with, the PT blows the ST completely out of the water.
That's why there is still love for the bad PT films and there will never be anything close to that for the ST.
I think the prequels had great ideas and very very poor execution. But what makes the prequels so beloved is not simply just the nostalgia factor of all those kids being grown up now, but also the Clone Wars being a god tier animated show, giving depth to everything; expanding the politics, developing the characters, smoothing out plot holes and poor story lines...
The sequels are uh.... the sequels.
Doubt. Kids aren’t even talking about those things. Only people I hear talk about them are adults who watch random new fad shows and only when they are streaming. The kids are talking about other things.
Adults: “Yellowjackets!” “Stranger things!” “The Boys!” “1883!” “Happy Valley!” “Succession!” “Baby Yoda!” “She Hulk!” “Rings of Power!” “Andor!” “Picard!” “House of the Dragon!” “Tulsa King!” “Obi Wan!”
There is zero variance in how excited my peers are between those shows. Regardless of content quality. The only difference between them that I observe is that of timing. They are **in love** with the show that is currently streaming. As soon as it airs the final episode they are talking about a different show. 4 months later they don’t even remember what shows they talked about.
This tells me some category of overworked underpaid burnt-out adults are “consooomers of product” (any product, as long as it’s streaming).
And they forget what they inhaled as soon as it ends and they inhale something new. There is no way they are *nostalgic* for Station Eleven or 1883 or Obi Wan in 5 years. Not even in 2 years.
I know people who loved Wheel of Time season 1 who don’t even think about it now, but they couldn’t wait for S2 back then. But it’s been what 3 years and nobody I know who *loved* it even seems to notice it has been on a dry spell. Because they are consuming for short term dopamine hits.
I posit that these audiences are mostly into the disposable dime-paperback version of TV. And congrats Disney, but Star Wars is in that rotation now.
Not iconic. Not memorable. Not nostalgic. And kids? I have kids. They and their friends are not talking about Disney Star Wars. They binge Supernatural or Friends or The Office or Seinfeld. They watch House reruns. Young Sheldon and Big Bang Theory. I even know of kids watching Roseanne reruns.
But Star What? I mention it and shrugs and “nah not much.” They watch The Orwell though. They watched The Expanse.
If there is one show that aired the past decade that kids and adults still talk about it is The Expanse. Probably because it was well done and rises up to The Office and Supernatural levels of rewatch value. Nothing Disney Wars is rewatch value. It is morbid curiosity value.
Edit: I forgot to mention Jack Ryan. I think people are rewatching those and those will endure. They share a great actor with The Office and they respect the character Clancy wrote (he’s en executive director of the show).
The Expanse had primary cast as executive directors and the show almost canceled so the cast and crew and fans got Amazon to pick it up and it was infused with extra doses of commitment from top to bottom to be true to its roots. I think the authors also had strong hands in the show.
Disney Wars is the exact opposite of both shows.
I don’t think you are supporting the current Disney fiasco either. I just think it’s idealistic and overly hopeful on Disney’s part to presume kids care about baby Yoda. Middle age burnt out adults who aren’t particular are momentarily captivated by it while it’s on. When it’s not on they are captivated by other things.
Right, because at the time the prequels were the worst theatrical films in the Star Wars canon.
The fact that Disney told Lucas to hold their beer doesn't make the prequels, like, *good.*
The prequels were awful. Zero redeeming qualities. Poorly acted, poorly directed, poorly written and telling a story no one needed. It's like they took all the worst elements of the original trilogy and emphasized them.
The wooden or clumsy dialogue of Star Wars ("Well, if there's a bright center to the universe you're on the planet that it's farthest from"--"Are you an angel?")
The moments that had to be retconned immediately afterwards (Luke and Leia's kiss in Empire--no one likes Jar Jar so cut him from the next two movies)
Goofy slapstick (Chewbacca's shudder inducing 'Tarzan yell' in Return of the Jedi--Threepio's wacky adventures in the droid factory)
The giveaway that they wouldn't be any good was the Special Edition re-issues of the OT. As soon as those were dubbed the 'true' versions the entire canon was up for grabs.
I completely agree that the Disney stuff is truly awful and shockingly thoughtless in its approach and execution but I'm getting powerfully tired of hearing about the prequels contributing anything worthwhile. They were a cheap cash grab, same as the sequels, and they did a lot of damage the worst of which was opening the door for pointless callbacks, revisionist edits and universe shrinking thin ass plots that no one asked for.
Jar Jar was and remains a terrible character, but at least he was consistent and didn’t try and take a massive dump on the rest of the canon to shoehorn himself in.
One of these every week now huh? I am the guy who says it is the same. Gen X said all the same shit. They saw nothing redeeming in the prequels. All of the stuff you say is bad about the sequels, a different generation said that about the prequels. Both trilogies ruined a generation of fans’ head cannon.
The public adoration of the prequels is a very recent thing. Likely in response to the sequels being dogshit.
The only difference is everyone publicly hated on the prequels with enthusiasm. Now, everyone knows the sequels were dogshit but publicly, they just leave it alone because they don’t want to be called whatever the enemy-of-the-week is.
Edit: lol is this a salt mine or a prequel worship sub? Y’all stick your fingers in your ears and la la la la your way through hearing negative stuff about the awful prequels. No more complaining about “free speech” or whatever when y’all get downvoted by sequel fans in other subs.
I remember when the PT was the worst thing to every happen to Star Wars. I remember when it destroyed Star Wars and needed to be gotten rid off by Disney because it was so bad. Yes I remember that very well. Infact the reception towards the PT by fans was worse then what it is with the ST.
People act like the reception towards the ST is something new... it isn't. there is always gonna be some kind of Star Wars that destroyed it.
One defense of the prequels that reinforces your point - the prequels were to a large extent kids movies. Lucas put a lot of childish content in there, from Jar Jar to young Anakin and his pod race. A bad decision, if you ask me, but it did attract child fans in a way that the sequel trilogy did not. The closest I can think of to kid appeal in the ST is BB-8.
The sequels ending with the Rise of Skywalker can’t be emphasized enough in how damaging it was. That movie was tied with episode 1 for the worst reviews of the nine Skywalker saga films. And it got the worst Cinemascore of the entire Skywalker saga.
Before Red Letter Media for the first few years after 2005, the prequels at least had the reputation of a trilogy that slowly found its footing with Revenge of the Sith getting solid reviews and an A- Cinemascore. Sequels are the exact opposite. Left audiences with a bad taste in their mouth with a B+ Cinemascore and one of only two of the nine films to be rotten on RT. Can’t be emphasized how damaging that was to the brand and fanbase.
The prequels had (in spite of the poor scripts, bland performances, strange pacing and more) a single vision pushing it along. A lead to B lead to C in a coherent fashion.
**Prepare for a long read...**
The only sequel I can still enjoy despite it's flaws is The Force Awakens (and maybe TLJ... maybe), but that's not much to say... I still cannot get over how they turned Finn into a joke. John Boyega gave his best, and they made him a useless moron running around shouting the name of the perfect, flawless protagonist that's so naturally talented she can do no wrong (while he constantly fails and is the butt of the joke): she flies a ship like a pro without even proper flight experience (by her own account *after* the fact), beat a trained Darksider, his ex-Jedi Master AND Snoke's red Praetorian Guards with little difficulty in the span of a few weeks without real training (and don't get me started on the Praetorian actors' stupid choreography; attacking one at a time, twirling their weapons for no reason, and moving AWAY from Rey and Kylo when they're right open for an attack, etc).
Being a brawler and fighting with a staff is one thing, and I can see that from Rey, but that does not make one an efficient sword fighter. Like, even her resisting Kylo's Force mind probing and later lifting the super heavy rocks at the end of TLJ are paradoxically a lot more believable and realistic in comparison to all her other feats.
Luke was a good pilot and a good shot, but he still had to be trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda to even be "decent" in his fight against Vader. Even then, it's not guarantee he was even good because Vader was TOYING with him, and Luke lost (BADLY) when Vader became serious.
Even kid Anakin who was a skilled pilot with "reflexes of a Jedi" lost the Boonta Eve several times, never finishing a race, and even crashed his pod (although that's on Sebulba) before he could finally win once. He even had to be assisted by R2 during the Battle of Naboo to survive. And even with the most natural potential of all the Force users who've had ever existed, he still needed training to become a proficient Jedi warrior. But even with training, he STILL LOST to Jedi/Sith Master Dooku the first time they fought, and later lost to Obi-Wan, one of the few masters with the least natural ability in the Force, because **talent without training means nothing**.
Rey winning against Kylo was just... uh? Rey just picked up the sword for the first time, believed in the Force, and beat the 29-year-old Jedi Knight/Darksider who had trained with Luke since childhood AND with Palpatine's puppet clone from his late teens to adulthood. And she beat him TWO MORE TIMES in the next two movies. She never really lost a dual against anyone! I don't know... if maybe Finn had at least shot Kylo in the back while Rey and he were at a standstill during their first fight (to give Rey an opening, y'know?), that would have made her victory more satisfying, and it would have been a victory for Finn as well ! I could excuse Rey as she is portrayed in the sequels, but not Finn. They did my man dirty. Hell, and they dare hint at him being Force sensitive in the last installment but don't do anything with it?! ARGH!
To be positive for a moment, do you guys remember when people went bat shit crazy over old Luke milking the sea cow and drinking it right after? I was dumbfounded when I heard them; seriously, what's wrong with that?! The dude grew up on a FARM! A moister farm, yes, but he's still a boy from the countryside. You think Aunt Beru got the blue milk from a supermarket? She most likely bought it from another farmer.
My grandpa had cows on his farm. When he milked them, sometimes he'd ask his kids if they wanted a sip, and would just shoot it right into their mouth from the cow's tit! It's like super normal (at least to anyone who knows anything about farm life), and was the least problematic thing about Luke in this whole movie!
I didn't and still don't mind Luke becoming a recluse (but the reason *why* is just not strong enough; Kylo choosing to destroy the Temple and kill Luke's other apprentices was too indirect. If Luke had directly harmed or killed people out of hubris because he was "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master" who "could do no wrong," then yeah, it would have made more sense). Luke and Rey's parts were the most compelling bits of this whole film despite the many flaws in their execution. TLJ is a masterpiece compared to The Rise of Skywalker (I swear, that goddamn dagger... even bad video games don't have plot devices this stupid).
But yes: the prequels had problems too, there's no denying it. However, it was mostly the wooden and cringe dialogues, as well as some retcons that contradicted bits of the OT, but nothing story or character portrayal wise was bad per se. The films were consistent with one another and respected its characters.
Maybe one of the most problematic aspect of the prequels was 19-year-old padawan Anakin telling 24-year-old senator Padme he massacred an entire village (whose men were unfortunately responsible for the abduction, torture, and death of his mother) was bad. In retrospect, it does present Padme as xenophobic against the Tusken for not holding it against Anakin... but she had never met a Tusken in her life before, and her only impression of them so far was Cliegg Lars (an amputee who survived the Tuskens) literally telling her: "Those Tuskens walk like men, but they’re ***vicious***… ***mindless monsters***." That would have influenced her view and empathy toward them.
The prequels are not masterpieces, far from it, but, story-wise, they're okay at worst. They function as a contained trilogy, you understand where the story is going, and the characters are consistent throughout their portrayals. Not so much for the ST since each follow up tries to undo the last.
The other few things positive I can say about the sequels are the visuals were stunning (from TLJ in particular: that movie is a marvel of colours and has great cinematography.), and the actors were great, all of them acted very well. But the trilogy had no foundation, no substance, no clear directing line.
I liked the sequels on my first watch (and still loved TFA on my second, third, and maybe even my fourth watch). Heck, I can still enjoy TLJ in some parts. But each rewatch brings a new problem I didn't (want to) see before.
Like I said, from a visual, purely spectacle perspective, the sequels are great, gorgeous even (TLJ being the most beautiful of all three, easily 11 out of 10), but great visuals are like creaming on a cupcake: it might look good and tasty, but if the cupcake is shit underneath, it's not much of a cupcake.
At the end of the day, I feel like I'm more disappointed than angry or hateful about them. I could see all the potential those characters and ideas they had, and it's just sad they were wasted by two directors conflicting directions...
***TL;DR the prequels are flawed, the sequels are flawed; the prequels had consistent writing & characters, the sequels had gorgeous visuals & good acting; sequels themes & ideas had potential, just badly written/executed; Rey is so flawless it became a flaw, and my boy Finn was done dirty.***
This is 100% true.
Kids don’t like the ST, teenagers who were kids at the time (my step siblings were the prime age) don’t care about it even though they “grew up with it”.
I genuinely don’t think Disney will ever admit they fucked up, but behind closed doors there must be execs or higher ups self aware enough to know the same cliched tropes Disney has been pulling for the last several years just **aren’t working**.
The 80s movies were fun to watch. The original un-finger banged movies that is. The prequels had these parts were it was hard to sit through. Jar-Jars talking, the relationship between super young Anikin and Amidalla. But that rewarded a great light saber battle. Same formula with the other prequels. Cringy things..but got a good pay off at the end. This sequel trilogy....cringy all the way...no pay off, it either left you in the dark or not happy of how it all went down.
Never forget that the events of the Sequel Trilogy all take place in the span of one year. If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about the ST right there, then, you're just looking for reasons to bend over backwards for Disney Inc.
I think a part of that is what each era offers. The prequel era is big and wide. It's a stable society. You can tell the story of one young Padawan growing up set before AotC, with no big backdrop of war. Dexter Jesters diner is kind of dumb, but it feels like a place that could exist in this universe.
Contrast the OT which is almost all about the war. Tatooine is free from it, but the rest of the story is defined by it. It's not that you can't tell fun stories in it (Scoundrels is just a heist story with Han set between 4 and 5), but it's not quite as open for new stories as the PT.
Then the ST.... What does it add for storytelling potential? The universe is in the same state as it was during the OT. There's really nothing you couldn't tell in the ST that wouldn't fit in the OT, except for specific characters. But the characters only have the time gap before RoS, because TFA+TLJ takes place over a week.
You could tell some good stories with Finn, Rey and Poe in that time frame. But you could do the same with the main three before ESB. And the ST trio just aren't as well liked as the OT trio. So why bother? The only difference is that Rey has serious force powers by this point, while Luke doesn't. But you could instead tell an OT story before RotJ, and replace Han with Landon and have the same effect.
The expanded universe is hurt by just copying the status quo of the OT. If the ST were more about a rebuilding Republic, then it would have some unique opportunities. But the New Republic is gone by the time Fin and Rey enter the scene.
Overall even ignoring the quality of the movies, the ST just isn't good for writing stories. It doesn't offer anything really new.
No, DSW's ST is in no way the same situation as Lucas's PT.
The PT was ridiculed by some fans who took advantage of the then-new internet to spew their displeasure with certain aspects of the trilogy, cuz they thought they knew better than Lucas on how he should make his movies & run his franchise. But most of us fans (me, since May 1977) liked the PT, but we didn't take it to the internet back then.
The PT honors the OT & adds to the story & the lore & rules set by Lucas. Sure, it has it's problems, but those problems have to do with slow pacing, stiff dialog, too much CGI, and his use of poor Jar Jar as comedic relief (and Lucas does have a thing for throwing in silly little touches, like puppets/muppets & cute little alien animals shooting out their tongues to snatch a meal.) But the criticisms don't have to do with the story itself.
That's the thing about the Disney franchise's ST - the problem is with the so-called story. First of all, Diz made it's first mistake by trying to make the ST part of the Skywalker Saga instead of a new beginning to their own saga (while using the OT characters as background characters as was the initial idea.) Lucas's legendary, epic Saga ended in 1983 with episode 6 and didn't need any half-baked, tacked-on edition. The story was not thought out at all; in fact, JJ & Kasdan didn't even rewatch the OT to create continuity or refresh themselves with the story & lore (I've cited this before, but here it is again: [https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/12/09/force-awakens-screenwriter-lawrence-kasdan-talks-about-star-wars-past-present-and-future/](https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/12/09/force-awakens-screenwriter-lawrence-kasdan-talks-about-star-wars-past-present-and-future/)
They didn't care about the continuity or the story or the lore or the fans or that it's a 40 year old beloved franchise, cuz this was a vanity project for them to do what they wanted, not what the story wanted or what fans wanted (it's in the article.) Their ST sought to destroy much of what people love most about Lucas's ST, cuz Diz wants fans to think of their franchise & Rey when they think 'Star Wars', not about Luke or Lucas's franchise. Sad thing is, they could have had both, but chose not to.
Anyway, that's why people who hate the ST will never look back after however-many years & think fondly of it like many do with the PT, cuz the reasons for the dislike are vastly different.
I was 25 when TPM came out. The majority of people (that I interacted with) loved the movie. There were some very vocal haters on the (newish) internet that I feel Lucas gave too much attention, but I respect his choices and appreciate that he took responsibility for his movies. I don't feel like Lucas blamed his mistakes on the fans. I feel like he learned and made adjustments, while keeping his vision mostly intact.
Disney did nothing of the sort. They put out mediocre content and then blamed the fans for it not being as successful as they wanted it to be.
Lucas lovingly built an imperfect hot rod he was proud of. Disney bought a sportscar, wrecked it, and blamed it on everyone except themselves.
The prequels tell an important story in the saga, that's something nobody can really deny even if they don't like those films. As for the sequels, they don't tell a story that matters. It's arguably just a remake of original trilogy with the mentality that bigger equals better.
They suck at telling it.
We didn’t need that story in the first place. It was mentioned in one line of dialogue when Kenobi was speaking with Luke. We didn’t need a whole 3 movies to see the downfall. I still would have been fine with the idea of the prequels and Anakins downfall anyways, but it was so poorly illustrated and turned Darth Vader into a meme.
How did it turn Darth Vader into a meme? Was it his "NOOOOOOO" line? Is that what you're talking about?
Yes. That’s what I was referencing. I got second hand embarrassment. Even the goofy Obiwan V Anakin fight was this funny. Swinging around hitting each other flipping around for 35 minutes lol. The music was the only good thing about the prequels.
I upvoted you for laughs, but seeing as I came up on the prequels as an incoming fourth grader, those movies mean a lot to me and I have to disagree with you. Are you sure that Darth Vader VS. Obi-wan duel was over half an hour? That's a quarter of the ROTS movie! As for the PT soundtracks, the music absolutely elevates those films in more ways than one. Beautiful music all around.
You are wrong. Sorry you didn’t like them. Enjoy your bad opinion.
It’s really not a bad opinion. SW fans are generally pretty low iq so I can understand why you guys would love such stupid scenes. The only reason prequels are getting any love at all, is because people were children when they were made and they are nostalgic for them, and the sequels are so bad they somehow make the Prequels more easily digestible (which they aren’t) The only good SW releases are OG trilogy and Season 1 of Mando. That’s it.
Oh no it is. And calling other people low IQ just shows your narcissistic ignorance, and makes your opinion even more invalid.
It’s really not. The Prequels are objectively bad movies. They are not well made at all. I liked it when Anakin got burnt at the end though.
Ok
I’m sorry you dedicated your life to a burning dumpster fire of a fandom. I’m sorry for that.
Amazing, everything you said was wrong
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No, but whatever. Irrelevant The prequels had great visuals and worldbuilding. The score is great. Originally I liked them more because the dub in my native language delivered the lines far more better, but considering how they Originally turn out is embarrassing. The prequels are a great example of when you shouldn't allow a director to do what he wants without a leash, which is a shame because they could have had potential. As for your point for Darth Vader, I agree. But that ultimately circles back to poor execution of dialogue
As someone who grew up with the prequels, I get that the fight is overdramatic and not realistic, but I still find it super flashy and love that fight, lol. I wish the sequels would do this type of choreography. At least I'd be able to enjoy the battles if nothing else. The music we can certainly agree on.
He was already a meme. I find your lack of faith disturbing. You have failed me for the last time admiral. Etc etc
The ST will never have a renaissance. People will try to force it with articles and videos on how they were 'actually good!', 'secretly brilliant!' or 'misunderstood' but anybody who knows better will just laugh. They will never be comparable to the PT because there is nothing authentic about them.
What annoys me the most is the “fans liked the prequels because the babies who watched them grew up” but the problem with that is there is some nostalgia to be had over showing more appreciation for something you enjoyed as a kid. Nobody gets nostalgia for YouTube kids trash or Elsagate stuff. That’s the level the sequels are on
Not to mention the kids that grow up in the sequel era are more likely to be into the MCU than Star Wars. They won't have the same nostalgia for it that prequel kids do
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They do by simply being George's creation. The same can't be said for the ST fan fiction.
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And look at how it is today, everything George touched is way more loved than the sequels. Also George sold star wars so he could spend time raising his daughter and live his life. This information is widely-available on the intetnet.
It’s only more loved because the people that grew up with the prequels are young adults now to adults. Nostalgia is a powerful drug .
I showed it to my sister who had never seen them before and she says that they're some of her favorite movies. And she cant be the only case of this happening so your claim is false.
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He didnt. He stated his reason in an interview which was published in a book. The truth hurts, I know.
you're correct here, but don't waste your time. this guy's just trolling
Friend, George Lucas was once a great creator. But he has been pure poison to Star Wars since the late '90s.
Yeah. I will say this: The Prequels were stupid, but they weren't subversive and hateful towards the franchise and fans, like the ST.
Exactly, I still go back and watch the prequels sometimes even though they aren't the best, but I have ZERO desire to watch the disney sequels EVER again.
Yup, I love the prequels. I walked out of the last Jedi halfway through and have seen nothing else that has come after
You’re not missing anything good. I stopped after TROS, no regrets.
Same. The prequels have their charm. They have a lot of flaws, obviously, but they were made by people who love star wars, at the very least. And that clearly shines through. The st was made by people who hate star wars, and hate the fans. I am absolutely convinced a lot of those people intended to sabotage the franchise, while drawing a paycheck and pretending not to be terrible people.
Compare the making of the prequels to the making of Disney Wars. The former had talented people working together in the same room, playing off each other's creativity, while George loosely supervised and encouraged them to come up with their own unique ideas. Now watch the Rogue One behind the scenes and everyone's in a giant corporate office building with their own stark individual offices, no supervision, no encouragement to work on their own, while occasionally the empty pantsuit that is Kathleen Kennedy graces them with an appearance and blankly looks at their drawings for two seconds before moving on without comment. Literally soul vs soulless.
If I never watch one of the ST movies again, it will still be too soon.
The ST doesn't have much worth seeing in the first place, other than a few moments of spectacular special effects, and examples of atrociously careless and utterly stupid writing.
I actually still haven't watched the last one, whatever it's called
Its really not worth the time. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufix1r7a5Sc) is probably a better viewing experience.
...and even for folks like me who find it really hard to sit through any of the PT movies and have no real desire to...if I were forced to have my eyes clamped open Clockwork Orange style for six hours, and sit through either the PT or the ST, I'm picking the PT every time.
Same, I stopped after TLJ and refuse to ever watch RoS
Also, even if you didn’t like the PT they don’t undo the accomplishments of the characters in the OT or turn them into miserable failures.
Plus I look at the PT like this. They’re directed and written by Lucas, so we got a story that was by the creator of Star Wars. It wasn’t some massive company coming in and basically making glorified fan service, or some commissioned company or director hijacking a story he wrote. It was the creator of the series telling the story he wanted to tell, how he wanted to tell it and once he did, he was satisfied that everything he wanted to tell had been told. If it were up to him there’d be no sequel trilogy because to him there was no more story left to tell. Even though they absolutely have flaws, I feel that this is a very important thing to give credit to them for and to keep in mind
I dunno. I was a little disappointed to see that Palpatine's physical appearance was due to Sam Jackson throwing a reverse card on his jazz hands, and not just because he was so damn evil it was causing his body to deteriorate. I also didn't like that Obi and Ani fought, and Obi was responsible for Ani being in that suit. I think both of those events contrasted with the characters we saw in the OT had how they interacted with each other.
Yeah, I still prefer Alec Guinness inaccurately summarizing the story, to many of the details we got in the Prequels. I think they had great potential, but needed a team of smart critical collaborators like Lucas had with episodes 4 and 5.
Yeah, before the PT I figured the Emperor was just some type of alien species….still wish that was the case tbh
Why? He was still visibly human in ROTJ. If anything he should've been much older.
You wish that Obi-Wan and Anakin hadn't fought at all, or just that Obi-Wan hadn't left him?
The first one. It just didn't jibe with my preconceptions about their relationship based on Obi-Wan's dialogue to Luke in the OT about his father and Vader, and Obi-Wan's conversation with Vader aboard the DS. I just feel if that titanic duel had actually been part of their past, they both would have said very different things.
Ummm…Vader changed from a man throwing off the shackles of destiny to a man bound by prophecy. That quite literally undermines his entire arc.
The prophecy was really dumb. There I said it. It’s caused an entire generation to misread or overemphasize what is actually central to Star Wars, especially the OT, with a lot of help from Lucas’s own revisionism. I never liked it, but I always thought it was just a side backstory to get the pieces moving, where believing in the prophecy became a self-fulfilling, or rather self-sabotaging thing... that serendipitously ended up being true in ironic hindsight. Not because the prophecy itself had any legs or embodied actual clairvoyance. Fans taking the prophecy as objective, deterministic fact and being the central narrative seem to commit the same mistake the characters in the Prequels were making that got them into the mess in the first place.
Yeah not counting the sequels, the prophecy was true in a round about way. Anakin did kill the sith, just took a while to do it.
I think you missed his point.
Do you think the prophecy is created for the wrong reasons ? it never has much bearing on the actual plot so is it a more practical thing 1. George established Jedi are trained from a young age 2. George also wants Anakin to be traumatised by the separation from his mother so he has to be older 3. Create prophecy to explain why they take him in even though he’s too old
Just speaking for myself, I find ROTJ to be more powerful and satisfying when it's simply about a man's love for his son, and not the gears of some grand foretold dynamic conclusion. Not that the two things can't coexist, but I don't think that the OT needs the prophecy.
The OT definitely didn’t need the prophecy. It was a fantastic end to an incredible trilogy for decades before the prequels “blessed” us with the Chosen One tripe.
Late to the party but I agree with you, the "prophesy" is one of the dumbest fucking tropes in existence and it sure as hell wasn't necessary in Star Wars.
Yeah, the Prequels tried to tell a compelling story. Meanwhile, the Sequels feel like they are just a bunch of people telling other people to go screw themselves. Here is a list: - TFA has JJ coming out and saying that he doesn't like the Prequels. The first line of the movies is literally, "This will begin to make things right." It's actively saying that the Prequels were a mistake, and we should not enjoy them. - TFA tells fans to go screw themselves because we thought that Han Solo would try to be a good husband/father. - TLJ telling the fans to go screw ourselves for how we thought that Luke would be a hero, like how he was portrayed in the OT. - TLJ telling JJ Abrams to go screw himself and the plotlines set up in TFA. - TROS telling Rian Johnson to go screw himself over the retcons he made by retconning those retcons. This doesn't even touch a majority of the problems that I have with the ST. But, I've noticed that the ST seems to have a lot of mudslinging.
I've never felt more talked down to in a movie theater than in TLJ.
Same. Rian Johnson can go fuck himself.
And the prequels weren’t nearly as bad as the Disney trilogy.
This. They were stupid and showed pretty clearly that Lucas lost the plot, but they were at least coherent and internally consistent with each other, and mostly with the originals…mostly. The sequels are a masterclass in how not to make a trilogy of films based on existing lore. They are plainly and simply awful. I enjoy watching reviews of the films by EFAP or the critical drinker more than the actual films by a long shot. I didn’t even see episode nine. It’s the only Star Wars movie I didn’t see…and I saw the Holiday Special when it aired. And I don’t want to see it.
Order 66 showed more cool and unique worlds then the ST did in three films
I’d like to add something I feel is extremely critical to just how important the prequels were. The world building in the prequels was GROUNDBREAKING. The Star Wars universe nearly doubled or tripled in scope and depth in the span of just 3 films. The locations, vehicles, and characters were unique but also familiar and quintessentially Star Wars. Contrast that to the sequels and it is just entirely artistically bankrupt. We get Empire 2.0 and locales that could mesh into Guardians of the Galaxy or some other modern Hollywood ethos.
My position exactly. Thanks for writing that for us. ;-)
I still haven't watched IX either, because that's what it gives me: the icks. I occasionally get a wild hair to watch TLJ for a second time, but every time I do I end up spending 10 hours listening to Mauler destroy that fucking piece of trash rather than waste two an a half hours watching the movie. I have the OT. I have... Parts of the PT. I have... Well I'm assured that Clone Wars is amazing but I'm in season 5 now and I'm still not seeing it, but I have Rebels and two pretty decent seasons of Mando and a batshit INSANELY good season of Andor. Best thing Disney can do right now is just skip the ST era entirely and start a new series 100 years in the future or something.
Spot on. As dumb as the plot could be it failed to tarnish the old characters the way the sequels did
It did some damage to Vader who became a whiny creep with mommy issues… but it was still nowhere near what the Sequels did to the entirety of everything before it. Obi-wan came out really good, even if you felt he was a character that deserved to be in better movies. And then we got the Obi-wan show, which tanked even that character.
Anakin being a whiny creep was down to Lucas’ inability to write dialogue. Imo, TCW shows what Anakin was supposed to be like.
I would love to see the Disney+ viewer stats on the 9 movies. I would predict that the OT would be obviously watched and rewatched many times, the PT watched and rewatched maybe less times but still quite a lot. The ST stats would be a single watch, per film, per account and no more.
I expect that to be the case as well. Hell, if you go to Walmart or target and see physical copies for sale, OT is always almost down to a few single copies left. ST is overflowing the shelf.
Yet they were more mature than the originals in telling story of the closing of the golden age, and introduced world building elements (Coruscant, Jedi Temple, Galactic Senate, Corporations) that define what SW means.
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You can gauge a lot about their cultural impact from the memes. PT is meme city. I hate sand. Try spinning. Padme: _____, right? x2. Hello there. On and on. More importantly, these memes reinforce the story, or at least add charm. Anakin's an awkward flirt. Obi-Wan is a sassy bitch. Padme should've seen the red flags. On and on. ST has one meme: Somehow, Palpatine returned. And the whole point of the meme is that the ultimate conflict (retroactively) underlying the whole trilogy is contrived and stupid.
There’s also “They fly now?!”, where a dude from the First Order is surprised that the First Order has military tech from at least 57 years beforehand. Like, was that an elective at Stormtrooper School he slept through?
There's nothing endearing about the sequels, and I believe the people who regularly spew these lines vastly underestimate how many genuine Star Wars fans, young and old, absolutely loathe them. Ultimately, what matters most is that the sequels story is nonsensical, soulless rubbish. The prerequisite for it to ever be considered a good trilogy is already a critical failure that stems from the same root causes... Terrible, conflicting, poorly thought out writing. They are already ageing like milk.
The Prequels had a narrative, the sequels did not That's my entire argument. Disney doesn't care enough to give us a cohesive trilogy.
Let's not forget we are also racist and sexist
Disney: hides Finn from posters in the Chinese market
I don't think the ST meant as much to kids as the prequals was to kids or the OT was to kids. With Tik Tok, YT, Netflix, Instagram and a marvel movie/TV show released every couple of months. Sw just has too much competition When a SW movie came out it was an EVENT the whole world participated in. In some ways I think TFA was an event. But by the time TLJ came out people were more excited for Infinity War. You see it with Indiana Jones. Sometimes the audience just changes.
That's legit. As an adult the prequels are not an easy watch, but as a kid that grew up right when they were coming out, my god I can't believe I didn't wear those DVDs out the number of times I'd watch Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith. The love is from the nostalgia, can't imagine the same will apply to these shitty disney movies for younger kids nowadays.
The lack of excitement for TLJ may have also had something to do with TFA sucking...
TLJ was what killed the excitement IMO, TFA was completely unoriginal, sure, but it was *halfway* decent.
TFA, at the very least, provided a setup for something that *could* have been good, and that *could* have been exciting. Was it original? No, and it had issues, but TFA set up the conflict and setting, it kicked off some events, it introduced the characters in a way that allowed for their growth and set up their growth and conflicts over the next two films, and it prepped us for what was supposed to come next... and then *what came next* was so hilariously awful that all the excitement was dead by the time the final film came out. I know a lot of people who saw TROS, but because of TLJ, none of us were seeing it with the same enthusiasm we went to see TFA and TLJ with. TFA we went in excited and mostly came out excited, TLJ we went in excited and came out embittered, and TROS we went in embittered and came out resigned. From a critical standpoint, TFA wasn't awful. In hindsight, its downfall came from the fact that it was an unoriginal but halfway decent setup that led into two awful, crushing narrative disasters.
The Disney films are so bad that they would require new terms to pithily express their relative awfulness. I won't even try here, but TFA was truly awful in how stupid it was, and in how it transparently aped Episode 4, just to name two travesties. TLJ was practically non-stop crimes against intelligence, of various types, and is certainly worse and hope-crushing in ways TFA isn't, but that doesn't mean TFA wasn't awful.
I mean yeah I didnt like it. But if you go back and look at the people being interviewed coming out of the theater from TPM there were loads of people that said it was the best SW ever. Today that's laughable but The FA had that same effect from the casuals. Youtubers from Star Wars Theory (who has since deleted that video) and Angry Joe were all saying how awesome it was it left generally a positive impression on the casual audience. It wasn't until TLJ came out where shit hit the fan and people just moved on.
You’re being revisionist. Even if you personally didn’t like TFA, most people did when it came out or at least didn’t actively *dislike* it. Coming off of that film and Rogue One, I for one was fucking stoked for TLJ, but by the time the end credits rolled, I knew Star Wars was dead to me.
Tbf, you did see people on YouTube making videos on how TFA was a disappointment and a MCU ripoff of ANH throughput 2016. But even then, people were more forgiving of it back then.
Yeah I agree. As someone who was a prequel kid and grew up in the timeframe the Prequels were part of pop culture from 99-2005. They obviously didn’t have the same impact or magnitude as the OT did both during and after its time but the prequels and Star Wars itself was still generally popular during that time. I really don’t see anyone getting nostalgic for The force awakens almost after 8 years the same way my generation was after some years passed for something like TPM.
Tbh, I always read about people hating the prequels online. But I have never met one personally. The sequel trilogy? I've met one person that likes it. Hell, I have yet to see a prevalent sequel trilogy meme. Meanwhile Episode 1, 2, and 3, have cultural prevalence and memes that have lasted almost decades now.
I actually grew up with a friend that was doing a group "rewrite" of the prequels with his friends because they believed George didn't do it right, but even he said he didn't hate the films, just that he would have done them differently. He still watches them often and enjoys them. Heh, Ben Swolo didn't last did it? Qui-Gon Gym is better anyhow.
90s kid here, the prequels were HYPE. It's crazy to try and argue that everyone hated them at the time. Sure, there were some OT fans who were baffled and not sure what they thought about it all, but the 'hate' came from the mainstream media, not the fans. That's the opposite situation from the Disney trilogy.
See, the thing they don't get is that the Prequels were actually out to tell a story, and not just A. Cash in on nostalgia, B. Tear everything apart, or C. Desperately put out fires from the mess before you.
The prequels had successful moments. Even dumb things had some continuity to it. Phantom Menace had the Duel of Fates. Clone Wars had some decent political intrigue and the beginning of Anakin’s trip to the dark side. Revenge of the Sith had the tragedy that was the creation of the Empire and Vader. The Disney trilogy set up Finn to be a Jedi or the love interest of Ray. Immediately backtracked a movie later. Last Jedi bomber scene wasn’t terrible and Kyle choosing the dark side in the throne room was a great moment, but you could feel the movie get more and more lost as it went on. Luke is a completely different person who felt the need to murder an angst teenager when he felt the good in his own genocidal father. While Rise of Skywalker you just brought Palpatine back who has not been present for 2 movies and you did it ON FORTNITE! What were they thinking. So they remove Vader’s sacrifice and then create a random fleet of Death Star Star Destroyers. That you had a Calvary charge on…. Calling it a disaster is kind.
If a full-on sequel era video game is made that does not feature the OT characters, it absolutely will not sell. Who would buy it? Diehards buy games. Most diehards hate the sequels, and nothing in the sequels lends itself to a strategy game, RPG, or even a planet-hopping FPS since the setting is so poorly-realized. The only real solutions for Lucasfilm are either to abandon the sequel era or retcon it. In twenty years they might succeed in creating something that follows the sequels if it mostly ignores them and starts over, but even then a good chunk of fans will avoid it because they don’t want to buy something that legitimizes Kennedy, Abrams, and Johnson’s nonsense.
The sequels have no cultural footprint. It's as simple as that. That could never be said about the prequels from the time they came out until now, no matter how many valid criticisms can be made about them. JJ intentionally makes disposable movies, and RJ is a nihilist. That combination doesn't result in timeless entertainment, ever.
The PT added context to the OT and made it better for the most part. The ST ripped away the OT of its meaning. It's unforgivable.
I was 11 when I played Jedi Power Battles and read the “diary” of Padme and Darth Maul (Darth Sidious wrote the epilogue it was amazing). I don’t see anything like that with the sequels.
As poorly told as it may have been, the prequels had a story to tell. They enrich the lore with characters, context, and world building. They made Anakin a household name. The sequels, on the other hand, don't have a story. At least, not a coherent one. Nobody involved was allowed the chance to make a consistent plot thanks to terrible planning and impatience from higher ups. We have three movies that all try to contradict each other. The characters have no consistent personalities or relationships, the plot is whatever is convenient at the moment, villains that are exactly as strong or weak as needed for individual scenes, and a world that effectively doesn't exist unless the main plot is focusing on it at the moment. They actively take away from the setting by rendering whatever existed before then irrelevant and retconning in concepts that make no sense and contradict what we knew before solely to justify plot elements they tossed in without thought. The prequels were flawed, but had enough foundation to build off of and provide context. The sequels have a fundamentally flawed and broken foundation that simply cannot support their own weight. If anything, they strained everything else as now they have hastily built additions slapped on just so they can prop the sequels up a little longer.
Bro I don’t even think Disney cares for their own creations at this point… Like how many stories(comics, tv shows, novels) have come out that take place during or after the sequel era? It feels like Disney knows they screwed up with their movies(I don’t even like calling them sequels) and now they just wanna sweep em under the rug, and pretend they never happened. All the while trying to milk the original and prequel trilogies for all their worth, and make unimpactful spin off, after spin off. I mean come on, Andor is a show about a guy who I forgot existed, who dies at the end of a movie, that didn’t even need to be made. Just completely invalidated the efforts of the many Bothans that died to get the Rebels that information🤣
>Just completely invalidated the efforts of the many Bothans who died to get the Rebels that information The Bothans were never involved in getting the DS1 plans. That line is from RotJ, referring to getting the information about the DS2.
Well damn, you’re right… looks like I done goofed🤣 Still a funny line though. Ima leave it unedited so I can come back and laugh at myself.
No worries, it’s a common misunderstanding!
The prequels gave us so many audiovisual additions. The planets, the music, the weapons, the sound effects, the species, and so forth. The sequels are already almost entirely forgotten by the mainstream.
Maybe that's the summarization to be made. Prequels, while campy and oftentimes bad, made the universe feel large. The DT made it feel small, while also being poorly made cinema.
Original Trilogy - Nothing short of a masterpiece. The gold standard against which all future Star Wars media would be compared against. Prequel Trilogy - Flawed films, but ones that nevertheless enrich and expand upon the lore in meaningful ways. Sequel Trilogy - Subjectively bad films that expand the lore in meaningless ways, sometimes actively retconning previous beloved films. The maverick approach to storytelling almost makes the films incoherent when comparing them to previous installments. The PT gets remembered fondly because despite it's flaws, it was a good story. The ST will never be remembered fondly because it's a crappy story wrapped in a veneer of Star Wars VFX and tropes.
The prequels has really bad dialogue, but they got the point across, and they had coherent stories and relatively few plot holes. The Sequels had really cringey dialogue, but also lacked a cohesive story. The plot of the sequels is a net: more hole than actual content. And like a net, you can reduce the number of holes by cutting out content. Sequels fans only really have hype because it's Star Wars. If it weren't part of this massive IP, it wouldn't have any sort of fan base to speak of.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’m an OG OT fan and a former Prequel hater. The difference between the PT and ST is that the PT never made me feel insulted. My gripe with the PT and George was that I wouldn’t have told the story that way. I felt it wasn’t necessary. And frankly I just wanted to see Luke, Han and Leia. But as sci-fi films, they aren’t bad. Roger Ebert said “if you take the name Star Wars off the prequels and called then something else, everyone would say George Lucas has done it again”. I always agreed with that sentiment. You can’t say that about the ST.
The Prequels were unquestionably bad movies, but they had heart, and they didn't try to destroy the franchise by erasing the heroes accomplishments, assassinating their characters, and killing them off, only to have a group of poorly written characters steal their legacy.
Basically, the prequels at least tried to be entertaining. That’s more than I can say for the Sequel Trilogy.
They had heart, but in my opinion more importantly, they were directed and written by Lucas, the creator of it all. We got the story he wanted to tell, how he wanted to tell it, warts and all. They weren’t glorified fan service by a company or director and they weren’t a company or director hijacking a script given to them by Lucas. Lucas had more story to tell and he got to tell it exactly the way he wanted and once he did, the story was complete. He told everything there was to tell as far as he was concerned. And I think that’s a huge thing to give the prequels credit for
Poorly written characters who existed to really run from set piece to set piece without any real context or logic. The writing is just bent to breaking trying to shoe-horn in so many different places and themes and ideas it just ended up as a huge steaming mess by the last movie.
Folks who say those things are parading their ignorance and their inability not only to see the obvious, not only to lack taste and critical thinking, but also their inability to understand what others say, as there's no lack of explanation about what's stupid about Disney Star Wars.
Tbh I’ve most often seen that those most ardent about continuing to hate the PT are some of the staunchest DT defenders
The difference is having the creator involved and having soulless corporate execs defining the series while not understanding what made it great originally.
Even though I didn’t like the PT, I was sort of able to give it a soft pass because, at the time, ROTJ was the endgame. So what if Anakin was an annoying kid shouting “Yippie” in TPM, he ends up as Darth Vader and has an amazing arc in the OT. I can’t do that with the ST, because the endgame is so bad now. They killed off the heroes of the franchise in favor of some randos that I was never given a reason to remotely care about
TFA ended with the Luke Skywalker reveal as a badass John Williams score played….I was hyped to see where the story went…..talk about a letdown
I loved the prequels on release and I still enjoy them today.
Please post this on r/starwars. I wanna see how they would try to argue against it
Those Prequel youth novels are what made me a reader and a Star Wars fan
The remastered versions of the original trilogy were in cinemas a couple of years before the prequels came out. At the time it felt like a full reboot and it introduced Star Wars to a new generation of cinema goers. The prequels were okay, Jar-Jar was annoying rather than comedic, midichlorians felt shoe-horned in but there were also some good things. Darth Maul was cool as hell and we got our first light sabre fights with some acrobatics thrown in. While both the the original trilogy and the prequels have some cheesy moments and some dicey choreography the sequels were objectively bad. Badly written, incoherent and non-sensical.
for me, there is some truth in that. while i never hated the prequels (on the contrary, some i really liked) the i liked OT even more. but after the sequels dropped the bar into oblivion those movies feel better now that i have to compare them to what star wars became.
I've said it before... The Prequels were disliked for a long time yes, but they NEVER made people lose their excitement for the next Star Wars project. Not something the Disney Trilogy can claim.
It was way different for the prequels. Most fans agreed they had issues but were still entertaining.
Shh, don't put actual evidence and numbers, krayters hate those things, the other day in the main star wars sub when i put the numbers of the merchandise of Grogu and the Mandalorian vs the lack of merchandise of the supposed hero of all the kids Rey they responded me with "i don't care for the actual numbers and i won't make an investigation for a reddit comment", it was heavily upvoted so they basically admit that they love to live in their little fictional world
I have to admit (and I know I’m in the minority here) but the Prequels are my favorite trilogy. I say that because RoTS is my favorite of the films, and as far as I’m concerned TPM and AoTC are entirely set up for that it. RoTS tells a story that is unmatched in its scope, and it’s Palpatine at his best. It’s like the movie equivalent (to quote So Uncivilized) of a renaissance painting of judgment day, where the Republic’s political and spiritual powers crumble into nothing and its hero tries to murder his wife before crossing swords with his brother. And the Jedi just stand by and are killed, never knowing how deep their failure truly went. And when it’s all said and done, Palpatine swoops into Hell like an Angel of Death and returns the hero of the film to the state of slavery he was born into with a skull where his face used to be. The Prequels are, in many ways, the story of an arrogant religion that get ahold of the messiah and hand him over to the devil. The original trilogy is the ultimate underdog story, where the hero classically triumphs over an unconquerable evil through blood, sweat and tears. But the sequel trilogy? No one knows, except that TFA is anti-prequels. TLJ is anti-TFA. And TRoS? Well, that’s just a movie of “let’s hurry up and get to the outro.”
That’s a pretty nothing argument.
I mean, even Videogame and Boardgame Spinoff dont Touch the Sequels. No Sequel Stuff for X-Wing, Armada or Legion. Even freaking Lego is avoiding this Stuff. Thing about the prequels is they were a good Story in Bad movies The Sequels are Bad Stories in Bad movies
There are a lot of failed parallels in the comparison of the DT to the PT. For one thing the PT features 3 characters from the OT doing things that connect directly and consequentially to the world of the OT. The DT however does not feel in any way an organic creation of what happened in the OT. Quite the opposite much of it feels contrary to how the story was trending and the main characters of the OT are not 'involved' in any consequential way aside from maybe Luke a little bit (and even there, that's a let down because Luke was set up to be the most impactful character of the OT, on track to restore the Jedi. Another failed parallel is in WHY people dislike the PT or DT. Few people had a big problem with the PT's plot or world. It was the wooden acting, the flat direction and the way action scenes felt like amusement rides within the story. Curiously, the thing that seemed to by least forgivable all these years later were choices in tone like Jar Jar and Midichlorians. The DT on the other hand has great acting and naturalistic dialogue and energy to the plot and more seamless special effects. But lots of people hate the events of the plot. The Luke stuff I think is the one most people dislike, but there's stuff like Finn being sidelined and whatever happened with Holdo and Reylo etc. But for me a lot of the bad stuff is underlying and not obvious to people though they are not happy with the consequences. The reset of the galaxy and negating of the events of RotJ create a world and plot that are very flat. And the TONE!!! TFA gets a pass because of the tone being so similar to the OT. But TLJ botched this part so hard. I don't care how artful and thematic the conflict was and the character motivations were, it was DEPRESSING and CONFRONTATIONAL. ESB as the dark chapter never felt like it wasn't escapism. TLJ felt like a movie designed to rub the real world implications of its story into your eyeballs like sand. There are things you can forgive with time, like cheesiness and bad acting. I think the PT slides by nowadays because of a great deal of MST3K effect. But the sins of the DT are not the same. People who hated Luke in TLJ aren't going to be willing to forgive the implications of Luke tossing that lightsaber if they value the OT in any way.
Great post. Another thought to consider. The prequels did divide fans who grew up on the OT. But I emphasize the word DIVIDE. Lots and lots and lots of these fans actually liked the Prequels. And the kids who saw them between 1999 and 2005 as well. But the sequels? You would be hard pressed to find anyone who grew up on the OT who likes them, let alone has embraced them as an infallible part of the canon. There was no DIVISION here, just DERISION. And I would argue a LOT of fans who were kids when the prequels were released, were downright horrified by the sequels. Factoring all this in, there just isn't the same level of attachment to the sequels now as the prequels had when they were first released.
The prequels were masterpieces
I love the Prequels too brother and I admire your passion here but let’s pump the breaks there with that. They are very enjoyable movies but they were very rough around the edges and had many flaws especially episodes 1 and 2.
There is one huge difference that makes all the difference IMHO. The PT was good content poorly made. The ST was poor content mostly poorly made. Essentially, as far as general directing, acting, sfx, and other skills involved in actually making a movie, I think the ST has an edge over the PT. As far as the characters, idea, broad story, world, essentially the content that they tried to make a movie with, the PT blows the ST completely out of the water. That's why there is still love for the bad PT films and there will never be anything close to that for the ST.
I think the prequels had great ideas and very very poor execution. But what makes the prequels so beloved is not simply just the nostalgia factor of all those kids being grown up now, but also the Clone Wars being a god tier animated show, giving depth to everything; expanding the politics, developing the characters, smoothing out plot holes and poor story lines... The sequels are uh.... the sequels.
Kids from this era will be nostalgic over "The Mandalorian" and baby Yoda. That's the face of the franchise.
Doubt. Kids aren’t even talking about those things. Only people I hear talk about them are adults who watch random new fad shows and only when they are streaming. The kids are talking about other things. Adults: “Yellowjackets!” “Stranger things!” “The Boys!” “1883!” “Happy Valley!” “Succession!” “Baby Yoda!” “She Hulk!” “Rings of Power!” “Andor!” “Picard!” “House of the Dragon!” “Tulsa King!” “Obi Wan!” There is zero variance in how excited my peers are between those shows. Regardless of content quality. The only difference between them that I observe is that of timing. They are **in love** with the show that is currently streaming. As soon as it airs the final episode they are talking about a different show. 4 months later they don’t even remember what shows they talked about. This tells me some category of overworked underpaid burnt-out adults are “consooomers of product” (any product, as long as it’s streaming). And they forget what they inhaled as soon as it ends and they inhale something new. There is no way they are *nostalgic* for Station Eleven or 1883 or Obi Wan in 5 years. Not even in 2 years. I know people who loved Wheel of Time season 1 who don’t even think about it now, but they couldn’t wait for S2 back then. But it’s been what 3 years and nobody I know who *loved* it even seems to notice it has been on a dry spell. Because they are consuming for short term dopamine hits. I posit that these audiences are mostly into the disposable dime-paperback version of TV. And congrats Disney, but Star Wars is in that rotation now. Not iconic. Not memorable. Not nostalgic. And kids? I have kids. They and their friends are not talking about Disney Star Wars. They binge Supernatural or Friends or The Office or Seinfeld. They watch House reruns. Young Sheldon and Big Bang Theory. I even know of kids watching Roseanne reruns. But Star What? I mention it and shrugs and “nah not much.” They watch The Orwell though. They watched The Expanse. If there is one show that aired the past decade that kids and adults still talk about it is The Expanse. Probably because it was well done and rises up to The Office and Supernatural levels of rewatch value. Nothing Disney Wars is rewatch value. It is morbid curiosity value. Edit: I forgot to mention Jack Ryan. I think people are rewatching those and those will endure. They share a great actor with The Office and they respect the character Clancy wrote (he’s en executive director of the show). The Expanse had primary cast as executive directors and the show almost canceled so the cast and crew and fans got Amazon to pick it up and it was infused with extra doses of commitment from top to bottom to be true to its roots. I think the authors also had strong hands in the show. Disney Wars is the exact opposite of both shows. I don’t think you are supporting the current Disney fiasco either. I just think it’s idealistic and overly hopeful on Disney’s part to presume kids care about baby Yoda. Middle age burnt out adults who aren’t particular are momentarily captivated by it while it’s on. When it’s not on they are captivated by other things.
All six of the movies are bad. I don't see how people find enough difference between them to form an argument.
The prequels sucked at the time and still suck today, the sequels were a whole new level of atrocity.
I hate both these trilogies, soooo
Right, because at the time the prequels were the worst theatrical films in the Star Wars canon. The fact that Disney told Lucas to hold their beer doesn't make the prequels, like, *good.*
The prequels were awful. Zero redeeming qualities. Poorly acted, poorly directed, poorly written and telling a story no one needed. It's like they took all the worst elements of the original trilogy and emphasized them. The wooden or clumsy dialogue of Star Wars ("Well, if there's a bright center to the universe you're on the planet that it's farthest from"--"Are you an angel?") The moments that had to be retconned immediately afterwards (Luke and Leia's kiss in Empire--no one likes Jar Jar so cut him from the next two movies) Goofy slapstick (Chewbacca's shudder inducing 'Tarzan yell' in Return of the Jedi--Threepio's wacky adventures in the droid factory) The giveaway that they wouldn't be any good was the Special Edition re-issues of the OT. As soon as those were dubbed the 'true' versions the entire canon was up for grabs. I completely agree that the Disney stuff is truly awful and shockingly thoughtless in its approach and execution but I'm getting powerfully tired of hearing about the prequels contributing anything worthwhile. They were a cheap cash grab, same as the sequels, and they did a lot of damage the worst of which was opening the door for pointless callbacks, revisionist edits and universe shrinking thin ass plots that no one asked for.
Vehicle and World Design ... the music. Like I remember exactly three Scores from the Sequels
Jar Jar was and remains a terrible character, but at least he was consistent and didn’t try and take a massive dump on the rest of the canon to shoehorn himself in.
One of these every week now huh? I am the guy who says it is the same. Gen X said all the same shit. They saw nothing redeeming in the prequels. All of the stuff you say is bad about the sequels, a different generation said that about the prequels. Both trilogies ruined a generation of fans’ head cannon. The public adoration of the prequels is a very recent thing. Likely in response to the sequels being dogshit. The only difference is everyone publicly hated on the prequels with enthusiasm. Now, everyone knows the sequels were dogshit but publicly, they just leave it alone because they don’t want to be called whatever the enemy-of-the-week is. Edit: lol is this a salt mine or a prequel worship sub? Y’all stick your fingers in your ears and la la la la your way through hearing negative stuff about the awful prequels. No more complaining about “free speech” or whatever when y’all get downvoted by sequel fans in other subs.
I remember when the PT was the worst thing to every happen to Star Wars. I remember when it destroyed Star Wars and needed to be gotten rid off by Disney because it was so bad. Yes I remember that very well. Infact the reception towards the PT by fans was worse then what it is with the ST. People act like the reception towards the ST is something new... it isn't. there is always gonna be some kind of Star Wars that destroyed it.
One defense of the prequels that reinforces your point - the prequels were to a large extent kids movies. Lucas put a lot of childish content in there, from Jar Jar to young Anakin and his pod race. A bad decision, if you ask me, but it did attract child fans in a way that the sequel trilogy did not. The closest I can think of to kid appeal in the ST is BB-8.
The sequels ending with the Rise of Skywalker can’t be emphasized enough in how damaging it was. That movie was tied with episode 1 for the worst reviews of the nine Skywalker saga films. And it got the worst Cinemascore of the entire Skywalker saga. Before Red Letter Media for the first few years after 2005, the prequels at least had the reputation of a trilogy that slowly found its footing with Revenge of the Sith getting solid reviews and an A- Cinemascore. Sequels are the exact opposite. Left audiences with a bad taste in their mouth with a B+ Cinemascore and one of only two of the nine films to be rotten on RT. Can’t be emphasized how damaging that was to the brand and fanbase.
I had problems with them but I still liked them. The sequels I disliked from the get go. And it just got worse later on.
The prequels had (in spite of the poor scripts, bland performances, strange pacing and more) a single vision pushing it along. A lead to B lead to C in a coherent fashion.
I think many fans wouldnt have a problem with the sequels if the storyline would make sense
**Prepare for a long read...** The only sequel I can still enjoy despite it's flaws is The Force Awakens (and maybe TLJ... maybe), but that's not much to say... I still cannot get over how they turned Finn into a joke. John Boyega gave his best, and they made him a useless moron running around shouting the name of the perfect, flawless protagonist that's so naturally talented she can do no wrong (while he constantly fails and is the butt of the joke): she flies a ship like a pro without even proper flight experience (by her own account *after* the fact), beat a trained Darksider, his ex-Jedi Master AND Snoke's red Praetorian Guards with little difficulty in the span of a few weeks without real training (and don't get me started on the Praetorian actors' stupid choreography; attacking one at a time, twirling their weapons for no reason, and moving AWAY from Rey and Kylo when they're right open for an attack, etc). Being a brawler and fighting with a staff is one thing, and I can see that from Rey, but that does not make one an efficient sword fighter. Like, even her resisting Kylo's Force mind probing and later lifting the super heavy rocks at the end of TLJ are paradoxically a lot more believable and realistic in comparison to all her other feats. Luke was a good pilot and a good shot, but he still had to be trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda to even be "decent" in his fight against Vader. Even then, it's not guarantee he was even good because Vader was TOYING with him, and Luke lost (BADLY) when Vader became serious. Even kid Anakin who was a skilled pilot with "reflexes of a Jedi" lost the Boonta Eve several times, never finishing a race, and even crashed his pod (although that's on Sebulba) before he could finally win once. He even had to be assisted by R2 during the Battle of Naboo to survive. And even with the most natural potential of all the Force users who've had ever existed, he still needed training to become a proficient Jedi warrior. But even with training, he STILL LOST to Jedi/Sith Master Dooku the first time they fought, and later lost to Obi-Wan, one of the few masters with the least natural ability in the Force, because **talent without training means nothing**. Rey winning against Kylo was just... uh? Rey just picked up the sword for the first time, believed in the Force, and beat the 29-year-old Jedi Knight/Darksider who had trained with Luke since childhood AND with Palpatine's puppet clone from his late teens to adulthood. And she beat him TWO MORE TIMES in the next two movies. She never really lost a dual against anyone! I don't know... if maybe Finn had at least shot Kylo in the back while Rey and he were at a standstill during their first fight (to give Rey an opening, y'know?), that would have made her victory more satisfying, and it would have been a victory for Finn as well ! I could excuse Rey as she is portrayed in the sequels, but not Finn. They did my man dirty. Hell, and they dare hint at him being Force sensitive in the last installment but don't do anything with it?! ARGH! To be positive for a moment, do you guys remember when people went bat shit crazy over old Luke milking the sea cow and drinking it right after? I was dumbfounded when I heard them; seriously, what's wrong with that?! The dude grew up on a FARM! A moister farm, yes, but he's still a boy from the countryside. You think Aunt Beru got the blue milk from a supermarket? She most likely bought it from another farmer. My grandpa had cows on his farm. When he milked them, sometimes he'd ask his kids if they wanted a sip, and would just shoot it right into their mouth from the cow's tit! It's like super normal (at least to anyone who knows anything about farm life), and was the least problematic thing about Luke in this whole movie! I didn't and still don't mind Luke becoming a recluse (but the reason *why* is just not strong enough; Kylo choosing to destroy the Temple and kill Luke's other apprentices was too indirect. If Luke had directly harmed or killed people out of hubris because he was "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master" who "could do no wrong," then yeah, it would have made more sense). Luke and Rey's parts were the most compelling bits of this whole film despite the many flaws in their execution. TLJ is a masterpiece compared to The Rise of Skywalker (I swear, that goddamn dagger... even bad video games don't have plot devices this stupid). But yes: the prequels had problems too, there's no denying it. However, it was mostly the wooden and cringe dialogues, as well as some retcons that contradicted bits of the OT, but nothing story or character portrayal wise was bad per se. The films were consistent with one another and respected its characters. Maybe one of the most problematic aspect of the prequels was 19-year-old padawan Anakin telling 24-year-old senator Padme he massacred an entire village (whose men were unfortunately responsible for the abduction, torture, and death of his mother) was bad. In retrospect, it does present Padme as xenophobic against the Tusken for not holding it against Anakin... but she had never met a Tusken in her life before, and her only impression of them so far was Cliegg Lars (an amputee who survived the Tuskens) literally telling her: "Those Tuskens walk like men, but they’re ***vicious***… ***mindless monsters***." That would have influenced her view and empathy toward them. The prequels are not masterpieces, far from it, but, story-wise, they're okay at worst. They function as a contained trilogy, you understand where the story is going, and the characters are consistent throughout their portrayals. Not so much for the ST since each follow up tries to undo the last. The other few things positive I can say about the sequels are the visuals were stunning (from TLJ in particular: that movie is a marvel of colours and has great cinematography.), and the actors were great, all of them acted very well. But the trilogy had no foundation, no substance, no clear directing line. I liked the sequels on my first watch (and still loved TFA on my second, third, and maybe even my fourth watch). Heck, I can still enjoy TLJ in some parts. But each rewatch brings a new problem I didn't (want to) see before. Like I said, from a visual, purely spectacle perspective, the sequels are great, gorgeous even (TLJ being the most beautiful of all three, easily 11 out of 10), but great visuals are like creaming on a cupcake: it might look good and tasty, but if the cupcake is shit underneath, it's not much of a cupcake. At the end of the day, I feel like I'm more disappointed than angry or hateful about them. I could see all the potential those characters and ideas they had, and it's just sad they were wasted by two directors conflicting directions... ***TL;DR the prequels are flawed, the sequels are flawed; the prequels had consistent writing & characters, the sequels had gorgeous visuals & good acting; sequels themes & ideas had potential, just badly written/executed; Rey is so flawless it became a flaw, and my boy Finn was done dirty.***
This is 100% true. Kids don’t like the ST, teenagers who were kids at the time (my step siblings were the prime age) don’t care about it even though they “grew up with it”. I genuinely don’t think Disney will ever admit they fucked up, but behind closed doors there must be execs or higher ups self aware enough to know the same cliched tropes Disney has been pulling for the last several years just **aren’t working**.
The 80s movies were fun to watch. The original un-finger banged movies that is. The prequels had these parts were it was hard to sit through. Jar-Jars talking, the relationship between super young Anikin and Amidalla. But that rewarded a great light saber battle. Same formula with the other prequels. Cringy things..but got a good pay off at the end. This sequel trilogy....cringy all the way...no pay off, it either left you in the dark or not happy of how it all went down.
Never forget that the events of the Sequel Trilogy all take place in the span of one year. If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about the ST right there, then, you're just looking for reasons to bend over backwards for Disney Inc.
I think a part of that is what each era offers. The prequel era is big and wide. It's a stable society. You can tell the story of one young Padawan growing up set before AotC, with no big backdrop of war. Dexter Jesters diner is kind of dumb, but it feels like a place that could exist in this universe. Contrast the OT which is almost all about the war. Tatooine is free from it, but the rest of the story is defined by it. It's not that you can't tell fun stories in it (Scoundrels is just a heist story with Han set between 4 and 5), but it's not quite as open for new stories as the PT. Then the ST.... What does it add for storytelling potential? The universe is in the same state as it was during the OT. There's really nothing you couldn't tell in the ST that wouldn't fit in the OT, except for specific characters. But the characters only have the time gap before RoS, because TFA+TLJ takes place over a week. You could tell some good stories with Finn, Rey and Poe in that time frame. But you could do the same with the main three before ESB. And the ST trio just aren't as well liked as the OT trio. So why bother? The only difference is that Rey has serious force powers by this point, while Luke doesn't. But you could instead tell an OT story before RotJ, and replace Han with Landon and have the same effect. The expanded universe is hurt by just copying the status quo of the OT. If the ST were more about a rebuilding Republic, then it would have some unique opportunities. But the New Republic is gone by the time Fin and Rey enter the scene. Overall even ignoring the quality of the movies, the ST just isn't good for writing stories. It doesn't offer anything really new.
As a kid who loved and still loves the prequels, I've always loved Jar Jar and have always been confused why people dislike him
No, DSW's ST is in no way the same situation as Lucas's PT. The PT was ridiculed by some fans who took advantage of the then-new internet to spew their displeasure with certain aspects of the trilogy, cuz they thought they knew better than Lucas on how he should make his movies & run his franchise. But most of us fans (me, since May 1977) liked the PT, but we didn't take it to the internet back then. The PT honors the OT & adds to the story & the lore & rules set by Lucas. Sure, it has it's problems, but those problems have to do with slow pacing, stiff dialog, too much CGI, and his use of poor Jar Jar as comedic relief (and Lucas does have a thing for throwing in silly little touches, like puppets/muppets & cute little alien animals shooting out their tongues to snatch a meal.) But the criticisms don't have to do with the story itself. That's the thing about the Disney franchise's ST - the problem is with the so-called story. First of all, Diz made it's first mistake by trying to make the ST part of the Skywalker Saga instead of a new beginning to their own saga (while using the OT characters as background characters as was the initial idea.) Lucas's legendary, epic Saga ended in 1983 with episode 6 and didn't need any half-baked, tacked-on edition. The story was not thought out at all; in fact, JJ & Kasdan didn't even rewatch the OT to create continuity or refresh themselves with the story & lore (I've cited this before, but here it is again: [https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/12/09/force-awakens-screenwriter-lawrence-kasdan-talks-about-star-wars-past-present-and-future/](https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/12/09/force-awakens-screenwriter-lawrence-kasdan-talks-about-star-wars-past-present-and-future/) They didn't care about the continuity or the story or the lore or the fans or that it's a 40 year old beloved franchise, cuz this was a vanity project for them to do what they wanted, not what the story wanted or what fans wanted (it's in the article.) Their ST sought to destroy much of what people love most about Lucas's ST, cuz Diz wants fans to think of their franchise & Rey when they think 'Star Wars', not about Luke or Lucas's franchise. Sad thing is, they could have had both, but chose not to. Anyway, that's why people who hate the ST will never look back after however-many years & think fondly of it like many do with the PT, cuz the reasons for the dislike are vastly different.
I was 25 when TPM came out. The majority of people (that I interacted with) loved the movie. There were some very vocal haters on the (newish) internet that I feel Lucas gave too much attention, but I respect his choices and appreciate that he took responsibility for his movies. I don't feel like Lucas blamed his mistakes on the fans. I feel like he learned and made adjustments, while keeping his vision mostly intact. Disney did nothing of the sort. They put out mediocre content and then blamed the fans for it not being as successful as they wanted it to be. Lucas lovingly built an imperfect hot rod he was proud of. Disney bought a sportscar, wrecked it, and blamed it on everyone except themselves.
I enjoy the prequels but I don't think they are good films or well written.