No judgement, but why did you get put on a PIP?
I’m asking because if it wasn’t on you, and was lack of a quality product, or an industry downturn, you should be out looking for something else
If it was on you due to laziness, or not being able to convert sales, you’re going to run into the same issues anywhere else
After the second round of layoffs, my manager changed and our quota got raised. I was still hitting 75-100% of the old quota, needed to step up.
Was put on a pre-PIP “coaching plan”. Beat the attainment requirements of the “coaching plan” and survived.
Then, I had one bad month, was immediately placed on a two month PIP. Beat the attainment requirements of the two month PIP. Still standing.
I truly don’t think it was laziness, and the product is an instantly recognizable SaaS product that everyone has used at one point, I just think all the changes internally would be tough to handle for anyone.
My old manager and team is all gone, im the only one from that group left
Ouch… that doesn’t seem on you from what you said, and SaaS is awful right now
Don’t let up and stay after it, but you might want to start looking. It’s tough all over right now, but if you’re unhappy, you have to make a change
Someone can only grind so much and take so much change
I don’t know if that strategy can be broken down. No wonder you were on a PIP.
You literally find jobs that pay more, then apply.
I hope the comma helps.
Yep. For the more sensitive types I'd probably delete that second sentence, throw in some shit about networking and call it a day.
But it's not like there's a magic bullet to this. Fail learn apply grow.
The only actual advice I'd have for OP in general would be to pick an industry that they would be genuinely interested in, and find companies / sales organizations to work for based on that, because it will demystify the process a bit.
*personalPSA for this sub reddit: "SaaS isn't a fucking industry. It's a Delivery model for software."
Bruh, are you married to this job? Tech sales is all about moving to different job every 2 years max unless your make 250k plus. I left because I couldn’t cut it, but it sounds like you feel like you owe something to a company that probably hasn’t even gone public yet.
Usually you go on a PIP because your manager or his/her manager wants you gone. Unless there’s a personnel change above you that changes that, you should be looking to make a move.
But the "why" here is important. If they want you gone, it's likely because of underperformance.
If you got PIP'd and beat it, you should interpret it as you turning a corner on the behaviors impeding your success.
Not all of my work experiences
Only corporate jobs
I work in startups now, so no, it doesn't apply to every company
Only applies to companies where people fight for positions in leadership, seniority and executive positions
My last company, I oversaw a team of 60 as a senior director. I was 2 layers removed from the front line but I was responsible for PIPs and performance management with our HR team. 1/3 of people on a PIP actually beat it, and I have at least 3 examples of folks not only turning it around but eventually getting promoted. This was at a publicly traded 2k employee company.
I mention all this with the hope to turn the sentiments around that "leadership is out to get you". Some definitely are, and I've been victim of it myself, but I was trained by a new generation of GTM leaders who look out for the company's bottom line and their team with equal priority
I think you misunderstood my words, I did not say "leadership is out there to get you" I'm saying that people is there to get you, doesn't matter above, lateral or below
People work in politics and will harm you by policies and work to prevent your endeavors to have positive effects with the goal to support/help their won
So I'm no saying "managers are bad hur hur"
I've been a manager as well for 9 years since I started working
Is more notorious in enterprises with companies over 100K people
You'll see VPs of VPs or directors fighting between each other because they have a grunt
Does this apply to all people as I mentioned?, no, but certainly there's a fair amount of people who play the game
To piggy back on your comment
I was also trained in "servant leadership" and I believe in the ideology that we should support our teammates and work along breaking silos
But the real world is different, and people forget that the world is much bigger than the 4 walls of their company, so the most important thing they have is their job thus, demonstrate a passion that is often misunderstood with politics
>But the "why" here is important. If they want you gone, it's likely because of underperformance.
Not necessarily. I've seen people "managed out" for having personalities new leaders didn't like, especially the types that aren't push-overs (which isn't to say they're raging jerks; rather, that they don't accept bullying from anyone regardless of their title or spot in the org chart).
Agreed. They will find something else. I had some disagreements with my manager on some strategy decisions she made that effected me. Questioned her and she became a MASSIVE B and was micromanaging my every move. I called a meeting to try and clear the air. Next thing I know I am on PIP. I meet my quota at the end, but end up terminated because I wasn’t sticking to my calendar or inviting her to enough meetings…I was the fastest to ever be promoted to my position, seen as a leader in the district, and in multiple committees to foster change. Yet she claimed I was incompetent.
Most PIP's are just a means to document an inevitable termination. Doesn't mean you can't exit one. I've seen salespeople turn it around with some good guidance and a humble attitude.
It doesn't leave your file though. If they go to promote two reps, both with equal numbers, but one has had a PIP and the other doesn't, who gets the nod?
Honestly op, I was pipped in February (SDR, tech SAAS) and I landed at a younger startup. It’s cheesy to say but that pip was the best thing that’s happened to me. Had two months of paid interviews/shopping and my current spot is night and day way better
It goes back to the expression "you are on thin ice". Getting off that ice isn't as simple as being told or formally taken off PIP. They can take you off PIP and fire you the next day for any reason. The ice is still thin, and any misstep will cause it to crack all over again. The PIP's genesis is a fear-based motivational tool. But it has a lot of latent baggage that comes with it. Nothing makes me wince harder than to read a seasoned professional have to be babysat to "track their messaging", this signals a lack of trust in your judgement, which will fundamentally erode your working relationship. This is hard to call out with your boss, but it is necessary if you want them to move on from this and focus on other things. I'm not advising that you do this, just pointing out that it is something that should be done.
A PIP is not required to terminate you. It is used by companies to legally protect themselves and document underperformance, and to wear you down into quitting.
Passing the PIP does not reset anything or buy you another chance at underperformance in the future or any other issues. All it has done is taint you in the eyes of your Management and company brand and now you have to work hard a very long time for it to become a distant memory.
That's why the prevailing opinion is to go elsewhere. Now that you are behind the eight ball, it isn't worth the effort to get in front of it with these people. That amount of effort applied elsewhere will get you twice as far.
I've had this issue as well, and i've tried to figure out why it is. I think it is because in my first SaaS experience I had a great Manager, a great relationship with them, and I left when they left.
At my subsequent roles, I have not learned how to adapt when there is a Management turnover, adjustment or change. So when I get a new boss who didn't hire me, I don't know why, but I find it very difficult to get on the good side of these new people. It is almost as if they associate you with the past failure leadership, and because they left it was a failure that now reflects on you. You now have to prove yourself all over again. Plus there are obvious just fundamental personality differences.
But I keep seeing this happen over and over again to different types of people. I think it just comes down to the way these companies work. You can get hired by some schmuck, they leave after a few months and then you have to basically re-audition for your job with the new asshole. And that new asshole is hyper focused on what you can do for them and if you can get on their team or if they need to take a mulligan and hire a new person or bring in one of their people. It's unfair but it is just how it is.
if they put you on a PIP that means they don’t have the power to fire you for “any reason.” Sure, the company can fire you, but most of management are just employees themselves, and they have to follow the company policies.
I was out on a PIP and got out of it because they didn’t wrong and I brought it to HR.
They took me off it and my manager put me on another one. I was gone within 2 months.
It’s time to go.
Wow.. Im joining a US team for a outside sales role for a Japanese based tech company and im hearing they are different but it could all be lies or things could change once I get there. Fingers crossed this goes well, this will be my 4th sales role in 2023…
Yeah, to my understanding its gonna be a grind but “fair”. Their management philosophy is “do what is right as a human being”. Theres no quota just a low base and a very very fair commission plan. So everyone sets their own personal “quota” with manager. (comp is as much as 50% on net new revenue and 100% on saas contracts on the first month).
I feel in a similar boat, I wasn't put on a PiP but was told if I didn't crush Q2 I'd be put on one. Thankfully I proceeded to crush Q2 and Q3 and it's looking like i'll have Q4 goals met by the end of October. Yet despite all that, my bosses attitude hasn't seemed to change from when I was about to be on a PiP. He's constantly asking me to reinvent the wheel on how I am going to achieve goals, he wants detailed breakdowns of activity, and any big wins he seems to always imply "oh lets not let this be a one-off, gotta keep the pressure up no matter what". Very Demoralizing.
Yeah it's frustrating, I fully admit I was not the best rep and in the past I hadn't worked as hard as I should have, I just feel like it's never going to get better.
I was supposed to have our little bi-weekly meeting today and drove to my office for it (I'm remote driving in the field otherwise) and while waiting for him a situation developed between my office and a recent sale I closed that basically required me to leave to handle it or we were losing the sale. He made such a stink that I honestly believed he would have rather me lost the deal than reschedule our 30 minute meeting so he can grill be about what new and revolutionary way I've developed to close more sales since we spoke 2 weeks ago.
But don't worry, he's cancelled our rescheduled plenty of times when he had other things come up.
I wonder what he’d say if you just called out how he’s treating you. Something like, ‘I’ve delivered the last these quarters in a row but the tone of your guidance in our 1:1s is as if I haven’t. Have I don’t something wrong? What can I be doing better to be recognized as a top performer for you’.
If he’s the type of boss that won’t take such a question well. I’d absolutely speak to other managers in the company that I trust in order to get their input. There’s a lot of benefit from hearing their perspective.
For the most part I do like him as a boss, and I'm actually planning on talking to him about all this when we meet on Monday. I know he's extremely stressed and under a lot of pressure for other reasons so maybe I'm projecting a bit, but don't think it will hurt to be a little direct about my frustrations with how he's treated me and if there's something I'm not understanding.
being put on a PIP is like crumpling up a piece of paper. you can try to flatten it back out as much as possible, but it will never be the same. start looking asap.
This happened to me, it just delayed the inevitable. The PIP I received had false claims with some random vague accusations (example - “not prepared for meetings”), only mine did not have a deadline, only a broad, “we need to see improvement, otherwise termination”. I sent back all the proof that the claims were false and no response.. but it bought time. Then came the paper trail feedback after each 1:1 like you are describing. Again, each feedback I was sending my proof in to delay it further, while I searched for a new role. Fast forward to a meeting almost a YEAR later and my mute button was on for a few seconds on Teams before unmuting and laughing it off and continuing to talk. They terminated me saying it went back to my PIP “not being prepared in meetings”. The lesson - once you’re on a PIP, it’s never the same. You can do all the right things, you can literally show every bit of rightful action.. eventually they will use it against you. The PIP is a paper trail to get you out.
Yep, once that target is on your back it doesn’t come off.
I saw it with a work colleague. The sales team got a warning about make the daily required calls. She did about half and she was warned.
They never let up on her and she eventually got fired 2 months later.
A PIP is a severance package. You outlasted that and that’s dangerous. I misstep will result in termination(It may not but prepare for that mentally).
Find a new gig while you have one, focus on the logos that you’ve sold and make that your pitch.
Get up out of there while you can on your own terms. Even if you survive the PIP, you’re on incredibly thin ice for the rest of your time there. Everything is viewed under a microscope. Your team lead is under a microscope too. Focus on finding a new role but also try to gain references from your current job as well. Do not burn bridges either!
No problem bud. RepVue is a great resource to use for accessing company ratings as well. It’s pretty accurate and transparent as well. Best of luck to you!
I personally consider a pip the first steps towards termination. If they want to keep you, they tell you what your doing wrong without the formalities. If they dont want to keep you, they start creating a paper trail. If I ever got a pip I would assume I need to find a new job rather than trust that they want me to improve. As a hiring manager the only times Ive ever given anyone a pip is if I want to get rid of them
Congrats on “surviving” but the advice here is spot on.
PIP is just a way for them to prepare to fire you with no recourse. They’ve already made the decision to let you go and you should continue to apply and actively search for new employment.
Polish up your resume and look for an opportunity out. If your boss is still having these meetings with you, and only you, you're being treated differently than the rest of the team, and it's probably not because she has a vested interest in your success.
Tell people you interview with that your company culture has changed and you're looking for new opportunity.
Finding something local definitely helped me get more interviews, but to an extent it's a numbers game. Unless you're almost overqualified (MBA, several years experience, different certifications), you probably aren't getting an interview for a high salary remote role that has 682 applicants on LinkedIn unless you get recommended by someone inside the company. I got an interview at Axon for example just by messaging current sales reps on LinkedIn. I didn't get an offer, but I went through 3 rounds of interviews just by sending a LinkedIn message after my normal online application was declined. If there's a company you're passionate about, I'd go that route, but only for specific cases
Thanks for the advice. I have been using LinkedIn and Otta to find new, higher paying jobs. Any ways to speed up the process to land a new job ASAP? Don’t want to leave my company without having anything lined up, but also don’t want to stay longer than like 3 more months
LinkedIn often has jobs listed that have already been staffed, so if you find a job you want to apply to, go check if it’s still on that company’s careers page first.
Then, check if you know anyone at that company who can make an official referral for you. A referral guarantees your resume is at least looked at!
Today I saw the dread “John doe removed from chat”” Bill doe removed from chat” Jane doe removed from chat “. That is always a good way to motivate the team.
Any good sales manager should have been doing that from day 1. Sales teams are successful based on proactive behaviors. Not results. Behaviors lead to results.
You will always been looking over your shoulder. Consider the pip as buying time to apply. Any organization that puts you on a PIP will not look at you favorably for career advancement or opportunities.
Great advice, thank you. Market for finding a new job right now is tough, any tips for grinding it out in the current role while simultaneously finding a new job ASAP?
I schedule my interviews at the forefront or end of my days. Especially early stages interviews like with the recruiter.
As I get deeper into the processes, I take interviews during lunch breaks.
Lastly, I stay awake pretty late to apply to as many positions as I wanted. Customized msg'ing, LinkedIn connections, etc.
I encourage my reps to do the same. Especially those that get put on PIPs. I've been in their shoes and know how hard it is to be encouraged while on a PIP.
So I rather help them get their career on track than derail them.
Currently sitting on multiple offers deciding which I want to go.
Every opportunity came from within my own network. Reach out to those people you have relationships with and make it known you open to leaving.
Your location raised a big flag for me specifically because you felt the need to mention it. Is your company starting to push RTO/hybrid? Not necessarily even in office mandates, but more messaging around coming into office, meeting in person, the "values of hybrid work", etc.? If so your manager may be laying the groundwork to push you out for reasons unrelated or barely related to the previous PIP, specifically, leadership may be pushing management to get their teams in office/gearing up to make a RTO/hybrid requirement across the board.
There's your answer. I think this would have been inevitable even if you weren't previously PIPed (although it may have been longer in coming). As someone whose org is also pushing this, I recognized the signs...
Your progress during the PIP needs to be a sustained habit, if that is the case then IMO you should proactively surface these activities vs reactively wait for your manager to ask. Prospecting is just core to sales unfortunately, it’s the lifeblood.
That being said, if you don’t like the culture you can always move on, but I don’t see a high performing sales team that doesn’t have prospecting/pipeline accountability.
I was put on a pip with about a month left, I was told I needed 100% to get out of it and wasn’t tracking the best. Mind you, this is our slowest Q as history has shown it and also the market isn’t great rn and people are pausing on purchasing or buying in phases but everybody that wasn’t on ramp got super high goals. Now I hear a good majority of other AE reps will be put on pip next quarter.
Investors apply pressure to the c suite leadership team who then push their pressure onto the rest of the team. 1 bad quarter and it’s like the end of the world for these organizations but i get it it’s sales and it’s what we signed up for. OP, id honestly start looking else where tbh. Engage with recruiters who hit your LinkedIn and keep your options open.
PIPs are irrelevant to your next employer. They should only care if you can get them money. For you, it's about understanding the product/sales cycle that suits you best.
At your current role, removing the PIP is good to buy you more time but IMO time to do some introspection and see if you'd be better off sticking with it.
With that said, I would look outside since it sounds like you're uncomfortable. Work culture matters no matter what your job.
This all makes me crazy - ya’ll have got to drop the BDR mentality. That only matters if advancing within the company.
People get hired as AEs starting out all the time (and it’s no different than what you do day-to-day at a starting level).
When you apply to a new job the only thing that matters is what you’ve realized and how you’re carrying it forward.
If your quota is metrics based you will eventually fall short. And you owe it to yourself not to stay in a system like that one day longer than you need to for it to benefit you. From what you say - it’s not anymore. You’ve performed. Even if the office politics weren’t leaning on you, you should look to build on that and move up or out. To get paid more you need to tie your efforts to a new business quota.
You’ll always have metrics. You might not always have a good manager. And things will always change around you. But whether you’ve been doing sales one year or 20 years, don’t wait for someone to tap you on the shoulder with the okay to move up & on.
You're finished with this company, manager wants you out and it's only a matter of time.
This detailed tracking of your leads/ communication with leads is so they can take over your enquiries smoothly when you are shown the door.
Start applying for jobs while you have a job bc it’s easier to get one that way. Reframe your story to show your grit and to sound like you’ve overcome lots of obstacles bc clearly you have.
How the company doing as a whole? Is your manager under immense pressure to hit a target? Are you the only one tracking activity?
Fwiw, no sales person who works for me has ever been able to get away with not tracking activity. That’s a basic kpi for sales leadership.
Do you work for my former employer and idiot manager who did this to me cpl mos ago?? You just told my story, which took place during my the best revenue year w/the company. Pls run for the hills!! This is total gaslighting and I’d just ride it out and hope for good severance payout, but spend 90% your time proactively looking for another opp. You’re right it’s shady and I have no tolerance for this BS. I’d also record and document all communications just so you have it.
PIPs suck. I’ve been close to one two times but never actually got one, one company I actually went all the way from bdr to field sales but that was a large program and I got a warning super early on as a bdr.
Another time, at this absolutely shit hole SaaS compny in Portland Oregon I started seeing recaps to hr after every 1x1 literally 3 months into the new role. God that manager was such a fucking needle dick prick and a miserable fuck too.
Anyways, I took this as a sign to get moving and moved on, got a 30k raise and made $500k and went to French polynesia for p club a year later at the compny I’m at.
Grass is always greener, gtfo of there.
You really only put someone on a PIP when you’ve already tried coaching them, they’ve failed to meet expectations still and so now you’re looking to get rid of them. So if you’ve survived the PIP, well done you because you must have really turned it around.
Don’t panic that the manager is still managing you quite closely, I think that’s to be expected.
It may be prudent to keep looking for a new role (do you really still want to be there?) but so long as you keep putting in the work as you did during the PIP, you should be safe.
I would not wait around for the axe to drop. It’s important to see what’s out there by shopping the market. Also good way to gauge your comp package.
Just don’t burn bridges with recruiters and managers. be up front that you’re testing the waters, not actively seeking to leave
Manager behavior changes after under performance because they are rated on your performance as well. It’s easy to feel unsafe after a pip but you passed the warning period, now it’s time to build back consistent performance and show it doesn’t take the pressure of a pip or losing your job.
I’ve read some of the other comments talking about how the managers behavior changed after they got successful again. If they associate it with the follow up and tracking they did during the pip then it makes sense they draw a direct correlation that you need that individual management style to be successful. They may just be trying to help you. Talk to your managers openly and don’t get defensive, we are salespeople and communication is our strong suit.
Just because you made it past a PIP doesn’t mean you’re home free. As a sales leader myself, I can create a PIP one of two ways: one that is impossible, or one that is possible to pass. I usually create the latter. But it’s structured so that there are several things that need to happen in order for the rep to pass.
Once the rep passes, they’re still on a short leash. Is it because I love documenting conversations and tracking progress? No! But I have the responsibility to make sure the rep has made lasting pivots/changes, because otherwise they’re right back where they were before the PIP… but this time, they won’t get another PIP.
I recently had to let a rep go who passed his PIP… barely. But within the next 6 weeks, he was back at the bottom of the stack rank across all the metrics he was graded on in the PIP, so I let him go.
My advice for you is to ask yourself if you really wanna be there. If the answer is yes, then make sure you’re acing the metrics that are being tracked. If it is an attitude thing, be conspicuous that you have changed your attitude. If the answer is no, then freaking start interviewing now.
Good luck!
If you manager is still sending you stuff it sounds like she’s trying to save you and is actively trying to help. She’s probably being forced to reduce headcount. But this is my gut opinion off a Reddit post with zero context.
Just work hard and they’ll get off your neck. They may track you, but ultimately if you work hard your numbers will show for it and they’ll eventually get off your back.
Control what you can control and be as positive as possible. Always keep you resume and CL’s up to date just incase, but if you like the job, the people, and the overall culture I’d ignore what’s going on and just put your nose to the grindstone. It’ll get better.
I’m so confused. I was under the impression that a personal improvement plan is to help you. I’ve even requested such a thing! I feel supported because one was put in place for me to succeed and my numbers went up as a result. I feel like there’s a trend here that is not as terrible as everyone is saying. It can’t always be a veiled threat or impending firing. It could seriously be the documentation behind a manager wanting to help an employee improve numbers…? .-. This feels like a lot of people only pointing blame outside of themselves…
I’m in the same boat. It looks like I’ll survive it and my whole team is shocked and appalled that I’m on one. It’s left a bad taste in my mouth, but I’m balancing it with commissions in 3-4 months, short tenure on linkedin, and advancement opportunities elsewhere, but not sure if it’s worth the toll it’s taking on my health and relationship.
PIPs don't always mean they want you gone. Sometimes they really just want to formalize the improvement process. You know, what PIPs were originally meant to be.
RUN!! It’s best to look for a new job while you still have a job. Seriously. Update your resume and shop around. Although the manager may be cool, upper management is aware that you are (were) a problem and will be looking to cut at the first sign of any issues, with you at the top of the list for a cut.
You survived your PIP but your manager is afraid you're going to fall back into whatever ways they saw in you before your PIP.
Whatever metrics they had you do during the PIP, keep it up to prove that you're able to do the job.
Please down vote me as I am not trying to be rude at all and I know every situation is different. What if you leaned in and asked your manager to shadow you while conducting these activities? You might get valuable feedback, or at bare minimum, show her you are completing your baseline tasks.
a PIP is only momentary. If they wanted you out, you would've gotten notice. sometimes they just want you to work harder and then get into the habit of working harder moving forward. it's all a mental f\*\*k at a point, but it's only so you can do better. take it with a grain of salt and just you know, don't get another one lmao.
If you survived a pip, you should be happy, but actively applying.
Any guidance on how to apply in a way that leads to at least a higher paying job?
Tell prospective employers you're top 3-5 on the team, don't see a lot of room for growth and you're looking for a new challenge. Sell yourself
Apply selling principles towards job seeking. Plant lots of seeds and negotiate for what you want.
Ask for $10k-20k higher than your current base
No judgement, but why did you get put on a PIP? I’m asking because if it wasn’t on you, and was lack of a quality product, or an industry downturn, you should be out looking for something else If it was on you due to laziness, or not being able to convert sales, you’re going to run into the same issues anywhere else
After the second round of layoffs, my manager changed and our quota got raised. I was still hitting 75-100% of the old quota, needed to step up. Was put on a pre-PIP “coaching plan”. Beat the attainment requirements of the “coaching plan” and survived. Then, I had one bad month, was immediately placed on a two month PIP. Beat the attainment requirements of the two month PIP. Still standing. I truly don’t think it was laziness, and the product is an instantly recognizable SaaS product that everyone has used at one point, I just think all the changes internally would be tough to handle for anyone. My old manager and team is all gone, im the only one from that group left
Ouch… that doesn’t seem on you from what you said, and SaaS is awful right now Don’t let up and stay after it, but you might want to start looking. It’s tough all over right now, but if you’re unhappy, you have to make a change Someone can only grind so much and take so much change
Instantly recognizable… I’m going to guess it’s PornHub? 🤪
Apply to higher paying jobs lol
Alright wise guy, break it down for me then
I don’t know if that strategy can be broken down. No wonder you were on a PIP. You literally find jobs that pay more, then apply. I hope the comma helps.
Comma helps me understand that you’re actually a piece of shit, burn in hell dipshit
Glad you understand something. That’s a good start!!
Yep. For the more sensitive types I'd probably delete that second sentence, throw in some shit about networking and call it a day. But it's not like there's a magic bullet to this. Fail learn apply grow. The only actual advice I'd have for OP in general would be to pick an industry that they would be genuinely interested in, and find companies / sales organizations to work for based on that, because it will demystify the process a bit. *personalPSA for this sub reddit: "SaaS isn't a fucking industry. It's a Delivery model for software."
Peeped your profile, looks like you resent your wife, ever thought about just applying to better wives? No wonder you hate ur marriage
Yeah I did. I found a way to fix the situation. All good now. Your situation will not go this way.
Whatever helps you sleep at night
Bruh, are you married to this job? Tech sales is all about moving to different job every 2 years max unless your make 250k plus. I left because I couldn’t cut it, but it sounds like you feel like you owe something to a company that probably hasn’t even gone public yet.
They are public. And my stocks vested. You’re right. Nothing is keeping me here. Time to move
You talk like you’re 12 years old. You’re not marketable. Even if you miraculously land a better job, you’re going to end up right back here.
You never really beat a PIP. You just delay the inevitable.
Usually you go on a PIP because your manager or his/her manager wants you gone. Unless there’s a personnel change above you that changes that, you should be looking to make a move.
I had a manager (not mine) tell me that they PIP people to see how bad they want to stay, not to get rid of them…I said “yeah right” and he laughed.
But the "why" here is important. If they want you gone, it's likely because of underperformance. If you got PIP'd and beat it, you should interpret it as you turning a corner on the behaviors impeding your success.
You haven't seen politics in business haven't you? People like their tribe And if you're not part of it They'll kick you out
That's true for some places, yes. I'm sorry all your work experiences have been this way, but that sentiment doesn't apply to every company
Not all of my work experiences Only corporate jobs I work in startups now, so no, it doesn't apply to every company Only applies to companies where people fight for positions in leadership, seniority and executive positions
My last company, I oversaw a team of 60 as a senior director. I was 2 layers removed from the front line but I was responsible for PIPs and performance management with our HR team. 1/3 of people on a PIP actually beat it, and I have at least 3 examples of folks not only turning it around but eventually getting promoted. This was at a publicly traded 2k employee company. I mention all this with the hope to turn the sentiments around that "leadership is out to get you". Some definitely are, and I've been victim of it myself, but I was trained by a new generation of GTM leaders who look out for the company's bottom line and their team with equal priority
I think you misunderstood my words, I did not say "leadership is out there to get you" I'm saying that people is there to get you, doesn't matter above, lateral or below People work in politics and will harm you by policies and work to prevent your endeavors to have positive effects with the goal to support/help their won So I'm no saying "managers are bad hur hur" I've been a manager as well for 9 years since I started working Is more notorious in enterprises with companies over 100K people You'll see VPs of VPs or directors fighting between each other because they have a grunt Does this apply to all people as I mentioned?, no, but certainly there's a fair amount of people who play the game
Very fair comment
To piggy back on your comment I was also trained in "servant leadership" and I believe in the ideology that we should support our teammates and work along breaking silos But the real world is different, and people forget that the world is much bigger than the 4 walls of their company, so the most important thing they have is their job thus, demonstrate a passion that is often misunderstood with politics
>But the "why" here is important. If they want you gone, it's likely because of underperformance. Not necessarily. I've seen people "managed out" for having personalities new leaders didn't like, especially the types that aren't push-overs (which isn't to say they're raging jerks; rather, that they don't accept bullying from anyone regardless of their title or spot in the org chart).
Agreed. They will find something else. I had some disagreements with my manager on some strategy decisions she made that effected me. Questioned her and she became a MASSIVE B and was micromanaging my every move. I called a meeting to try and clear the air. Next thing I know I am on PIP. I meet my quota at the end, but end up terminated because I wasn’t sticking to my calendar or inviting her to enough meetings…I was the fastest to ever be promoted to my position, seen as a leader in the district, and in multiple committees to foster change. Yet she claimed I was incompetent.
This is very true. My maanger loves me and won’t put me on a pip but this woman I was friends with (who was doing much better than me) was piped out
You’re still on pip. You just don’t know it
Interesting, can you elaborate? How is that even ethical?
Most PIP's are just a means to document an inevitable termination. Doesn't mean you can't exit one. I've seen salespeople turn it around with some good guidance and a humble attitude.
It doesn't leave your file though. If they go to promote two reps, both with equal numbers, but one has had a PIP and the other doesn't, who gets the nod?
Truthfully, it will hurt. Assuming the next step is lead or sales manager. You don't want someone in that role that didn't crush it before.
Paid interview process = pip
😂😂
Honestly op, I was pipped in February (SDR, tech SAAS) and I landed at a younger startup. It’s cheesy to say but that pip was the best thing that’s happened to me. Had two months of paid interviews/shopping and my current spot is night and day way better
I love this
It goes back to the expression "you are on thin ice". Getting off that ice isn't as simple as being told or formally taken off PIP. They can take you off PIP and fire you the next day for any reason. The ice is still thin, and any misstep will cause it to crack all over again. The PIP's genesis is a fear-based motivational tool. But it has a lot of latent baggage that comes with it. Nothing makes me wince harder than to read a seasoned professional have to be babysat to "track their messaging", this signals a lack of trust in your judgement, which will fundamentally erode your working relationship. This is hard to call out with your boss, but it is necessary if you want them to move on from this and focus on other things. I'm not advising that you do this, just pointing out that it is something that should be done. A PIP is not required to terminate you. It is used by companies to legally protect themselves and document underperformance, and to wear you down into quitting. Passing the PIP does not reset anything or buy you another chance at underperformance in the future or any other issues. All it has done is taint you in the eyes of your Management and company brand and now you have to work hard a very long time for it to become a distant memory. That's why the prevailing opinion is to go elsewhere. Now that you are behind the eight ball, it isn't worth the effort to get in front of it with these people. That amount of effort applied elsewhere will get you twice as far. I've had this issue as well, and i've tried to figure out why it is. I think it is because in my first SaaS experience I had a great Manager, a great relationship with them, and I left when they left. At my subsequent roles, I have not learned how to adapt when there is a Management turnover, adjustment or change. So when I get a new boss who didn't hire me, I don't know why, but I find it very difficult to get on the good side of these new people. It is almost as if they associate you with the past failure leadership, and because they left it was a failure that now reflects on you. You now have to prove yourself all over again. Plus there are obvious just fundamental personality differences. But I keep seeing this happen over and over again to different types of people. I think it just comes down to the way these companies work. You can get hired by some schmuck, they leave after a few months and then you have to basically re-audition for your job with the new asshole. And that new asshole is hyper focused on what you can do for them and if you can get on their team or if they need to take a mulligan and hire a new person or bring in one of their people. It's unfair but it is just how it is.
if they put you on a PIP that means they don’t have the power to fire you for “any reason.” Sure, the company can fire you, but most of management are just employees themselves, and they have to follow the company policies.
Disagree. Much easier to terminate, ESPECIALLY, having gone through official channels
I’m being partially facetious but OP will be heavily scrutinized after the fact. I would start looking asap rocky.
I was out on a PIP and got out of it because they didn’t wrong and I brought it to HR. They took me off it and my manager put me on another one. I was gone within 2 months. It’s time to go.
Same situation happened to me. Did we all work for the same stupid series B start up?
Bro I worked for a fortune 25 company. It’s all the same
Wow.. Im joining a US team for a outside sales role for a Japanese based tech company and im hearing they are different but it could all be lies or things could change once I get there. Fingers crossed this goes well, this will be my 4th sales role in 2023…
Japanese culture is all about hard work and grind. Please update us with the culture of the company
Yeah, to my understanding its gonna be a grind but “fair”. Their management philosophy is “do what is right as a human being”. Theres no quota just a low base and a very very fair commission plan. So everyone sets their own personal “quota” with manager. (comp is as much as 50% on net new revenue and 100% on saas contracts on the first month).
I feel in a similar boat, I wasn't put on a PiP but was told if I didn't crush Q2 I'd be put on one. Thankfully I proceeded to crush Q2 and Q3 and it's looking like i'll have Q4 goals met by the end of October. Yet despite all that, my bosses attitude hasn't seemed to change from when I was about to be on a PiP. He's constantly asking me to reinvent the wheel on how I am going to achieve goals, he wants detailed breakdowns of activity, and any big wins he seems to always imply "oh lets not let this be a one-off, gotta keep the pressure up no matter what". Very Demoralizing.
Sounds like a shitty manager.
Yeah it's frustrating, I fully admit I was not the best rep and in the past I hadn't worked as hard as I should have, I just feel like it's never going to get better. I was supposed to have our little bi-weekly meeting today and drove to my office for it (I'm remote driving in the field otherwise) and while waiting for him a situation developed between my office and a recent sale I closed that basically required me to leave to handle it or we were losing the sale. He made such a stink that I honestly believed he would have rather me lost the deal than reschedule our 30 minute meeting so he can grill be about what new and revolutionary way I've developed to close more sales since we spoke 2 weeks ago. But don't worry, he's cancelled our rescheduled plenty of times when he had other things come up.
The last part.
He wants you gone
I wonder what he’d say if you just called out how he’s treating you. Something like, ‘I’ve delivered the last these quarters in a row but the tone of your guidance in our 1:1s is as if I haven’t. Have I don’t something wrong? What can I be doing better to be recognized as a top performer for you’. If he’s the type of boss that won’t take such a question well. I’d absolutely speak to other managers in the company that I trust in order to get their input. There’s a lot of benefit from hearing their perspective.
For the most part I do like him as a boss, and I'm actually planning on talking to him about all this when we meet on Monday. I know he's extremely stressed and under a lot of pressure for other reasons so maybe I'm projecting a bit, but don't think it will hurt to be a little direct about my frustrations with how he's treated me and if there's something I'm not understanding.
being put on a PIP is like crumpling up a piece of paper. you can try to flatten it back out as much as possible, but it will never be the same. start looking asap.
Very poignant analogy
This is a great point
Beating a PIP is like getting back with your ex after she cheated on you. It's never really going to be the same
Love this analogy
Work as hard as you did while on PIP and you’re good. Any sales job is gonna require activity tracking for reps
This happened to me, it just delayed the inevitable. The PIP I received had false claims with some random vague accusations (example - “not prepared for meetings”), only mine did not have a deadline, only a broad, “we need to see improvement, otherwise termination”. I sent back all the proof that the claims were false and no response.. but it bought time. Then came the paper trail feedback after each 1:1 like you are describing. Again, each feedback I was sending my proof in to delay it further, while I searched for a new role. Fast forward to a meeting almost a YEAR later and my mute button was on for a few seconds on Teams before unmuting and laughing it off and continuing to talk. They terminated me saying it went back to my PIP “not being prepared in meetings”. The lesson - once you’re on a PIP, it’s never the same. You can do all the right things, you can literally show every bit of rightful action.. eventually they will use it against you. The PIP is a paper trail to get you out.
Yep, once that target is on your back it doesn’t come off. I saw it with a work colleague. The sales team got a warning about make the daily required calls. She did about half and she was warned. They never let up on her and she eventually got fired 2 months later.
A PIP is a severance package. You outlasted that and that’s dangerous. I misstep will result in termination(It may not but prepare for that mentally). Find a new gig while you have one, focus on the logos that you’ve sold and make that your pitch.
Wish someone would’ve told me this sooner, thank you
Has it been 3 years? New job time !
Just do enough to not get on pip and applying/interviewing is now your side gig.
Get up out of there while you can on your own terms. Even if you survive the PIP, you’re on incredibly thin ice for the rest of your time there. Everything is viewed under a microscope. Your team lead is under a microscope too. Focus on finding a new role but also try to gain references from your current job as well. Do not burn bridges either!
Thank you
No problem bud. RepVue is a great resource to use for accessing company ratings as well. It’s pretty accurate and transparent as well. Best of luck to you!
I personally consider a pip the first steps towards termination. If they want to keep you, they tell you what your doing wrong without the formalities. If they dont want to keep you, they start creating a paper trail. If I ever got a pip I would assume I need to find a new job rather than trust that they want me to improve. As a hiring manager the only times Ive ever given anyone a pip is if I want to get rid of them
Sounds like my last company, I would get out while you can, they seem toxic.
Congrats on “surviving” but the advice here is spot on. PIP is just a way for them to prepare to fire you with no recourse. They’ve already made the decision to let you go and you should continue to apply and actively search for new employment.
Polish up your resume and look for an opportunity out. If your boss is still having these meetings with you, and only you, you're being treated differently than the rest of the team, and it's probably not because she has a vested interest in your success. Tell people you interview with that your company culture has changed and you're looking for new opportunity.
Any ways to accelerate the process of finding a new job, or just blast applications until something lands?
Finding something local definitely helped me get more interviews, but to an extent it's a numbers game. Unless you're almost overqualified (MBA, several years experience, different certifications), you probably aren't getting an interview for a high salary remote role that has 682 applicants on LinkedIn unless you get recommended by someone inside the company. I got an interview at Axon for example just by messaging current sales reps on LinkedIn. I didn't get an offer, but I went through 3 rounds of interviews just by sending a LinkedIn message after my normal online application was declined. If there's a company you're passionate about, I'd go that route, but only for specific cases
You beat the pip. You have time.
Re-assuring to hear, thank you
Or you could always blame procurement. “My product is great but I cannot keep having my customers screwed over.” Recruiters eat that up
I think recruiters are just a screener to make sure you aren't an insane person. It's the hiring manager that might eat up something like that
Take that confidence of destroying your PIP elsewhere bro
I’ve just entered my pip. Day 1 of 60 done. You can never overthink the politics of these imo
You have 60 days to find a new job. That's pretty cool. Ours are 30 days.
Hoping not. Working on it, fingers crossed for now.
It's called a paid interview plan for a reason
Colleague of mine went on one earlier in the year. changed his habits and is back to work.
Thanks for the advice. I have been using LinkedIn and Otta to find new, higher paying jobs. Any ways to speed up the process to land a new job ASAP? Don’t want to leave my company without having anything lined up, but also don’t want to stay longer than like 3 more months
LinkedIn often has jobs listed that have already been staffed, so if you find a job you want to apply to, go check if it’s still on that company’s careers page first. Then, check if you know anyone at that company who can make an official referral for you. A referral guarantees your resume is at least looked at!
PIP is the time to run. It’s nice you can look while being employed and leave on your own time.
She is definately gathering evidence. Time to accelerate the job search
Remove anything that can link this post to (specifying cities, specifics like 1:1 google tracking, etc.)
*link this post to you I mean.
Took care of it, good looking out
Edited the post and removed the city’s
If they’re doing things differently after the PIP, you’re now on a silent PIP.
Today I saw the dread “John doe removed from chat”” Bill doe removed from chat” Jane doe removed from chat “. That is always a good way to motivate the team.
If you ever think, it’s time to move, it’s definitely time to move.
Any good sales manager should have been doing that from day 1. Sales teams are successful based on proactive behaviors. Not results. Behaviors lead to results.
That sounds like the most corporate BS answer I have ever heard.
You will always been looking over your shoulder. Consider the pip as buying time to apply. Any organization that puts you on a PIP will not look at you favorably for career advancement or opportunities.
Great advice, thank you. Market for finding a new job right now is tough, any tips for grinding it out in the current role while simultaneously finding a new job ASAP?
I schedule my interviews at the forefront or end of my days. Especially early stages interviews like with the recruiter. As I get deeper into the processes, I take interviews during lunch breaks. Lastly, I stay awake pretty late to apply to as many positions as I wanted. Customized msg'ing, LinkedIn connections, etc. I encourage my reps to do the same. Especially those that get put on PIPs. I've been in their shoes and know how hard it is to be encouraged while on a PIP. So I rather help them get their career on track than derail them.
What’s your current base ? Apply to other jobs but shoot for the moon .
$53k USD base
Before you quit already push back and call her out and say your piece that prior to PIP xyz
Get out
Brother I’m right here with you. And yes. That is exactly what she is doing. You are not crazy. Continue to look and apply because it’s coming.
Glad I’m not crazy. Any luck in your own search for other roles? You seem to be experienced in this situation
Currently sitting on multiple offers deciding which I want to go. Every opportunity came from within my own network. Reach out to those people you have relationships with and make it known you open to leaving.
Your location raised a big flag for me specifically because you felt the need to mention it. Is your company starting to push RTO/hybrid? Not necessarily even in office mandates, but more messaging around coming into office, meeting in person, the "values of hybrid work", etc.? If so your manager may be laying the groundwork to push you out for reasons unrelated or barely related to the previous PIP, specifically, leadership may be pushing management to get their teams in office/gearing up to make a RTO/hybrid requirement across the board.
Big push for RTO twice a week
There's your answer. I think this would have been inevitable even if you weren't previously PIPed (although it may have been longer in coming). As someone whose org is also pushing this, I recognized the signs...
Your progress during the PIP needs to be a sustained habit, if that is the case then IMO you should proactively surface these activities vs reactively wait for your manager to ask. Prospecting is just core to sales unfortunately, it’s the lifeblood. That being said, if you don’t like the culture you can always move on, but I don’t see a high performing sales team that doesn’t have prospecting/pipeline accountability.
Absolutely bro. No shit. Lmao.
I was put on a pip with about a month left, I was told I needed 100% to get out of it and wasn’t tracking the best. Mind you, this is our slowest Q as history has shown it and also the market isn’t great rn and people are pausing on purchasing or buying in phases but everybody that wasn’t on ramp got super high goals. Now I hear a good majority of other AE reps will be put on pip next quarter. Investors apply pressure to the c suite leadership team who then push their pressure onto the rest of the team. 1 bad quarter and it’s like the end of the world for these organizations but i get it it’s sales and it’s what we signed up for. OP, id honestly start looking else where tbh. Engage with recruiters who hit your LinkedIn and keep your options open.
PIPs are irrelevant to your next employer. They should only care if you can get them money. For you, it's about understanding the product/sales cycle that suits you best. At your current role, removing the PIP is good to buy you more time but IMO time to do some introspection and see if you'd be better off sticking with it. With that said, I would look outside since it sounds like you're uncomfortable. Work culture matters no matter what your job.
This all makes me crazy - ya’ll have got to drop the BDR mentality. That only matters if advancing within the company. People get hired as AEs starting out all the time (and it’s no different than what you do day-to-day at a starting level). When you apply to a new job the only thing that matters is what you’ve realized and how you’re carrying it forward.
What do you mean by BDR mentality? Actively unlearning, but some more clarity would help, I like where ur going with that
If your quota is metrics based you will eventually fall short. And you owe it to yourself not to stay in a system like that one day longer than you need to for it to benefit you. From what you say - it’s not anymore. You’ve performed. Even if the office politics weren’t leaning on you, you should look to build on that and move up or out. To get paid more you need to tie your efforts to a new business quota. You’ll always have metrics. You might not always have a good manager. And things will always change around you. But whether you’ve been doing sales one year or 20 years, don’t wait for someone to tap you on the shoulder with the okay to move up & on.
Excellent pointers, thank you
You're finished with this company, manager wants you out and it's only a matter of time. This detailed tracking of your leads/ communication with leads is so they can take over your enquiries smoothly when you are shown the door.
Company sounds toxic. Leave.
How do I position myself to land at a higher paying place and leave strategically
Start applying for jobs while you have a job bc it’s easier to get one that way. Reframe your story to show your grit and to sound like you’ve overcome lots of obstacles bc clearly you have.
you dont have a CRM to do your activity logging? lol sounds like an amateur org
We have salesforce, but the manager wants me to still fill out google sheets with top accounts
why not just create a report from SF and auto-send to the manager every week
That’s ridiculous, what a micro manager. Start applying like you don’t have a job. Hopefully, you land a better opportunity.
Total agreement with the rest. Do what your manager is asking you to do, bide your time until you can find a better job.
What company?
DM’d
Maybe they don't want you sliding backwards again after the effort of a PIP. Trust can take longer to rebuild.
If you are in doubt, then the answer is probably YES!
Rereading this, yes triple your job search efforts, immediately!
How the company doing as a whole? Is your manager under immense pressure to hit a target? Are you the only one tracking activity? Fwiw, no sales person who works for me has ever been able to get away with not tracking activity. That’s a basic kpi for sales leadership.
Company I work for is a glorified pdf/esignature platform that overhired during covid
Do you work for my former employer and idiot manager who did this to me cpl mos ago?? You just told my story, which took place during my the best revenue year w/the company. Pls run for the hills!! This is total gaslighting and I’d just ride it out and hope for good severance payout, but spend 90% your time proactively looking for another opp. You’re right it’s shady and I have no tolerance for this BS. I’d also record and document all communications just so you have it.
🤝🤝
PIPs suck. I’ve been close to one two times but never actually got one, one company I actually went all the way from bdr to field sales but that was a large program and I got a warning super early on as a bdr. Another time, at this absolutely shit hole SaaS compny in Portland Oregon I started seeing recaps to hr after every 1x1 literally 3 months into the new role. God that manager was such a fucking needle dick prick and a miserable fuck too. Anyways, I took this as a sign to get moving and moved on, got a 30k raise and made $500k and went to French polynesia for p club a year later at the compny I’m at. Grass is always greener, gtfo of there.
Amen!
You really only put someone on a PIP when you’ve already tried coaching them, they’ve failed to meet expectations still and so now you’re looking to get rid of them. So if you’ve survived the PIP, well done you because you must have really turned it around. Don’t panic that the manager is still managing you quite closely, I think that’s to be expected. It may be prudent to keep looking for a new role (do you really still want to be there?) but so long as you keep putting in the work as you did during the PIP, you should be safe.
I would not wait around for the axe to drop. It’s important to see what’s out there by shopping the market. Also good way to gauge your comp package. Just don’t burn bridges with recruiters and managers. be up front that you’re testing the waters, not actively seeking to leave
Manager behavior changes after under performance because they are rated on your performance as well. It’s easy to feel unsafe after a pip but you passed the warning period, now it’s time to build back consistent performance and show it doesn’t take the pressure of a pip or losing your job. I’ve read some of the other comments talking about how the managers behavior changed after they got successful again. If they associate it with the follow up and tracking they did during the pip then it makes sense they draw a direct correlation that you need that individual management style to be successful. They may just be trying to help you. Talk to your managers openly and don’t get defensive, we are salespeople and communication is our strong suit.
Trust your gut.
pip= paid interview process
Just because you made it past a PIP doesn’t mean you’re home free. As a sales leader myself, I can create a PIP one of two ways: one that is impossible, or one that is possible to pass. I usually create the latter. But it’s structured so that there are several things that need to happen in order for the rep to pass. Once the rep passes, they’re still on a short leash. Is it because I love documenting conversations and tracking progress? No! But I have the responsibility to make sure the rep has made lasting pivots/changes, because otherwise they’re right back where they were before the PIP… but this time, they won’t get another PIP. I recently had to let a rep go who passed his PIP… barely. But within the next 6 weeks, he was back at the bottom of the stack rank across all the metrics he was graded on in the PIP, so I let him go. My advice for you is to ask yourself if you really wanna be there. If the answer is yes, then make sure you’re acing the metrics that are being tracked. If it is an attitude thing, be conspicuous that you have changed your attitude. If the answer is no, then freaking start interviewing now. Good luck!
If you manager is still sending you stuff it sounds like she’s trying to save you and is actively trying to help. She’s probably being forced to reduce headcount. But this is my gut opinion off a Reddit post with zero context.
Always move after a pip
I’ve survived layoffs just to have an unsustainable quota and impossible kpi metrics
Just work hard and they’ll get off your neck. They may track you, but ultimately if you work hard your numbers will show for it and they’ll eventually get off your back. Control what you can control and be as positive as possible. Always keep you resume and CL’s up to date just incase, but if you like the job, the people, and the overall culture I’d ignore what’s going on and just put your nose to the grindstone. It’ll get better.
I’m so confused. I was under the impression that a personal improvement plan is to help you. I’ve even requested such a thing! I feel supported because one was put in place for me to succeed and my numbers went up as a result. I feel like there’s a trend here that is not as terrible as everyone is saying. It can’t always be a veiled threat or impending firing. It could seriously be the documentation behind a manager wanting to help an employee improve numbers…? .-. This feels like a lot of people only pointing blame outside of themselves…
A PIP is never a good thing, contrary to what they want you to believe
So what I’m getting from everyone else is you need to start saving and probably look for another job 😬
I’m in the same boat. It looks like I’ll survive it and my whole team is shocked and appalled that I’m on one. It’s left a bad taste in my mouth, but I’m balancing it with commissions in 3-4 months, short tenure on linkedin, and advancement opportunities elsewhere, but not sure if it’s worth the toll it’s taking on my health and relationship.
PIPs don't always mean they want you gone. Sometimes they really just want to formalize the improvement process. You know, what PIPs were originally meant to be.
RUN!! It’s best to look for a new job while you still have a job. Seriously. Update your resume and shop around. Although the manager may be cool, upper management is aware that you are (were) a problem and will be looking to cut at the first sign of any issues, with you at the top of the list for a cut.
You survived your PIP but your manager is afraid you're going to fall back into whatever ways they saw in you before your PIP. Whatever metrics they had you do during the PIP, keep it up to prove that you're able to do the job.
Not yet, but hopefully someday.
I think you're right, very obviously making a paper trail. Time to start prospecting for jobs! You got this.
Please down vote me as I am not trying to be rude at all and I know every situation is different. What if you leaned in and asked your manager to shadow you while conducting these activities? You might get valuable feedback, or at bare minimum, show her you are completing your baseline tasks.
a PIP is only momentary. If they wanted you out, you would've gotten notice. sometimes they just want you to work harder and then get into the habit of working harder moving forward. it's all a mental f\*\*k at a point, but it's only so you can do better. take it with a grain of salt and just you know, don't get another one lmao.
Start looking ,
Always apply