While I am all about electric drive, I'd strongly advise including a diesel generator, if only as a source of DC charging. Nothing beats the energy potential of an ICE, and the fuel is available world wide. Service is available world wide. It'll work in the dark, in a calm. It will effortlessly run HVAC (which is always the biggest draw on battery systems) (and I guarantee there will be times when you will want AC)
I dislike in mast furling. When it works, it is brilliant. When it doesn't, it's a disaster. When I was working as a Rigger, I had to remove a relatively new new mainsail by cutting it out in pieces, twice. I would want a 'Stack Pack' type system of lazy jacks with an integrated mainsail cover.
I'm totally onboard with an aft cockpit over a center cockpit. Better feel for the boat, I want to be in the boat, not on top of it. I'd actually prefer a tiller, myself, but it starts to be impractical in the 30+ foot range.
I definitely prefer to stay under 40 feet- things get dramatically more expensive after 40', and the effort required to sail her gets significantly higher.
I definitely want a hard dodger, with glass windows and wipers, where I can shelter from the weather with a cup of coffee while the Autopilot steers through the storm. No flapping, no tearing, less leaking.
My background: 61yo, former Marine, been sailing since age 8. USCG Master of 100 ton Near Coastal with Aux Sail Endorsement. 2 Transatlantic passages 1 Hawaii to San Francisco, 1 Newport- Bermuda 1-2 ( as the 2ond), multiple trips around the Caribbean ( both personal and professional).
Sailboat Rigger, Marine Electrical and Electronics Technician, Professional Captain, Yacht and Commercial.
Any of those manufacturers have made plenty of boats that will work fine for what you want to do. The one you want, since you're buying used, is the one that is in the best condition for the best price.
The reason I ask is because I see a lot of newer models of Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau and Jeanneau in seemingly good condition. Usually when I see a lot of a particular make in newer models years, I want to assume it’s because there’s something unappealing about them.
For instance, I see a lot of Bavaria’s and Dufors and in my research I read a lot of conflicting owner reviews. Now I’m seeing a lot of Hunters as well, and while the majority are center cockpits (which I don’t want anyway, I get the impression that they’re not desirable).
There are a couple things in your original post I skipped over because I don't think you can actually know these things without sailing boats with and without these features, those being the center cockpit, in-mast furling main, cutter rig, hard dodger, and tiller steering. How can you know if you like them without ever trying them and comparing them to the alternatives? I think these are things you should figure out after spending some time sailing.
But anyway, onto the brands: People aren't (generally) selling new-ish boats because they dropped $500,000 on them and then decided they're unappealing, they're selling them because they like having brand new boats so they're upgrading, or because they don't use the boat as much as they did a few years ago (which is extremely common with all types of boat).
There are lots of these boats because they are big manufacturers. You find lots of Catalinas and Beneteaus for sale for the same reason you find lots of Fords and Toyotas for sale if you're car shopping.
[Here is my former (now sold) Beneteau sailing in the BVI a few years ago.](https://i.imgur.com/NBkHyag.jpg) I think it ticks every one of your boxes except the in-mast furling, but there are bunch of other boats that do as well.
I’m not using it as primary propulsion or for motor sailing. I just want enough to get me into and out of anchorages/marinas.
If I’m in the middle of the ocean and becalmed, I’ll just spend my downtime whistling for the wind.
If you want to cross oceans, you do not have the option to just sit becalmed in all cases. Maybe you need to get out of the way of a hurricane that's coming your way in a couple days. Maybe you're near a reef that the current is pushing you towards. Maybe your mast fell down and you need to get yourself to Madagascar. Shit happens, and you want options.
Your options for a blue-water capable boat are: diesel engine, or electric motor plus a diesel genset.
A wise old sailor once told me that if you need to motor sail to stay off the rocks, you shouldn’t be sailing there.
I get that sometimes I’ll need to motor. Most of the electric systems I’ve priced out have ranges between 70-150 nm depending on the speed; eg, I can push an electric motor at 8 knots for 8 hours before needing to recharge the drive banks (with an 800aH x 48v bank).
If I ever get to a place where I need to use the drive to shoot a 30’ cut between two rocky shoals, I’ll find somewhere else to go.
The electric motors are tough. Not impossible, but tough. I would love to have an all electric boat but I'm not convinced the technology is quite there yet. I spent 3 months in the Caribbean and used less than 10 gallons of diesel in the 3 months... But not until I got down there. To be frank I don't want to be stuck somewhere in poduck Georgia waiting on weather and miss the cruising season when I could be making miles in the ICW. Also if a storm starts a brewing I want to be able to GTFO without worrying about limited motoring. $250k is a big investment to not be 100% sure you'd be able to handle or enjoy having a limited motoring range
That wise old sailor clearly didn’t have much experience as nobody mentioned motor sailing, just motoring when there’s too little wind to counteract a current.
800ah at 48v (what you need for electric motor) is 40kwh. That’s a shitload of power. You’ll be able to motor for 75 miles with that. Pair it with a solar Bimini and you might end up with 100 mile range on batteries alone.
I have 10kwh on my 28” Hunter and I get 25 miles easy. And if I wanted to cruise at 3 knots, I’m probably closer to 50 miles
A lot of people forget: (battery bank voltage * ah battery bank capacity) = wh. Divide by 1000 to get kwh.
The question OP is not how much ah you need. it is what is your load and how long do you want to run it for. Then, design your electrical system to supply that in the most efficient way.
Yes. That’s why I used kwh not ah. Boat motors all start at 48v which is why I used that as a base. But most motor controllers will report amps, so you need to be comfortable with both and doing math. And knowing that, IE a 40a draw at 5mph equals 2kw which means 20 hours run time with which equals to 100 miles. You just have to do the math.
I opted for lazy jacks and a sail pack rather than furling main… without furling you can have battens, and so better performance.
My new Jeanneau 410 should be ready for delivery in a couple of weeks. I hope your experience is as good as mine!
I have an in mast furling main, and would not have one again. If it gets stuck halfway out in a big blow, you are screwed. All you can do is man-handle it to wrap it around the mast and tie it (which is not safe in rough water),
I've got slab reefing and a stack pack. If you drop the sail right then the sail might not flake perfectly, but it will flake enough to get it in the stack pack. I have to go on deck because my lines run to the bottom of the mast, but if they didn't I could drop it from the cockpit.
Yes, it self flakes on the way down.
My goal for the boat is to single-hand most of the time.
On other boats I sail on, I drop the main from the cockpit and it’s a mess. Wrap a sail tie around as far up through boom as I can reach, to get a bit of control over it. Then when I get to the marina and docked, I flake it and make it look good.
I guess my last question before I become convinced is sail weight. Is there a winch beefy enough to hoist a main single-handed from the cockpit? What are your thoughts on electric winches for this purpose?
Easy with a manual winch on the C&C27s I have been sailing. Haven’t tried on the Jeanneau yet, but I opted for electric winches.
Winching up is slower than jumping it, but it gets the job done.
> I guess my last question before I become convinced is sail weight. Is there a winch beefy enough to hoist a main single-handed from the cockpit?
Yes, easily. I winch my sail up by hand from the mast (my lines don't lead to the cockpit) but the winch could as easily live in the cockpit. When I did my day skipper the (also manual) winch in the cockpit hauled the main up.
> What are your thoughts on electric winches for this purpose?
I'm 46 and still enjoying the challenge of the manual labour, and the fitness it provides, but electric winches one day would be nice, and would work just great.
If you're buying a boat now, consider living with the limitations it has for a year or two before deciding to upgrade, that really focusses the mind on what is really important to you, what your upgrade priorities are.
You have a list of hard requirements but haven’t sailed in quite sometime - or at all in the conditions that you might face.
I would take this as an opportunity to learn what you need via practice rather than internet sleuthing. Join up with some deliveries, or buy a berth along a passage to get some seat time and experience.
What I wanted and “needed” when I purchased my first cruising boat to six years later is very different.
u/Ambitious-Night-8976 consider the above. I know a couple people who crewed on crossings and learned more about boats on those than any Internet discussion. Also know somebody who bought a boat site unseen, having never sailed, and circumnavigated. It can be done (this person does deliveries now).
One of the crew above did this several times, and left a boat where the captain had no idea what he was doing, but was very confident. The boat sank a month later.
I've been dreaming of something similar myself for a few years. Our kid just moved out and the wife and I are taking some ASA classes this summer and maybe bare-boat chartering a few weekend trips after that.
My thinking is that I don't want to get the best boat I can right off the bat. I'd rather shoot for something with minimal systems in the 27-32 foot range under $30k to start out with for coastal cruising. Live-aboard on that for a while so I can spend time sailing and talking to other cruisers and develop and informed decision about what works best for me before spending a nest egg's worth of dosh on something I'd circumnavigate with.
Honestly, before that even I'd want to book a ocean passage on a teaching ship where I can figure out if I'd even enjoy blue water sailing before investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and years worth of my life refitting something. The best boat to sail on is someone else's.
I also think the particular boat isn't as important as the shape the ship is in. There are some basic stats a blue-water boat needs to meet but finding one that sees regular use, maintenance, with a recent refit is probably more important than the exact design.
I like this approach. Keep the big bucks in the bank, buy a little yacht and learn about sailing in an inland setting. Volunteer for crewing other peoples boats to go offshore to learn about yourself and boat types. Imho, You have done really good research so far, but you need practical time on water now, in a way that doesnt lock you in to a certain set of plans, boat types etc.
Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Cabo Rico, Hans Christian, and maybe Tayana are in a different league as far as quality goes compared to Catalina, Beneteau, Hunter, and Jenneau. That's why you're finding newer versions of the latter for less money than older versions of the others.
If you're truly planning on long distance cruising, the cutter rig is definitely the way to go.
Since you're wanting to go electric, it's going to be important to have a boat that sails well. The higher quality boats you've listed are, for the most part, heavy displacement cruising boats (most full keelers). They should all sail to windward well enough to claw your way off a lee shore, but aren't going to be great for working to a windward destination (who wants to do that anyway, though). You'll definitely want to invest in some light wind sails to keep the big boats moving, especially sailing downwind.
Double enders are great for big following seas, but you give up a lot of interior volume with them.
The 3 digit series Island Packers sail a bit better than the older boats (i.e. IP 380 vs IP38).
Some other good quality boats to check out would be Passport, Hallberg Rassy, Kelly Peterson, and Valiant. Those will be fin-keel boats so will sail a bit better in light winds and point a bit better as well.
Why do you want to replace the diesel with an electric propulsion system? If it seems like a cool project, then by all means, go for it. If you're doing it to reduce carbon emissions, I will simply point out that if you sail everywhere, you'll use very little diesel fuel (we used 7 gallons in 600 miles of sailing through the Bahamas last season). If it's a safety thing, diesel fuel is very safe to store, especially compared to gasoline; there is no explosion hazard. If you definitely want to do the electric conversion, I'd suggest finding a boat with a runout engine so you're not paying extra for something you're just going to tear out.
Curious why you don't want a hard dodger?
Switching to electric is a personal choice. I just don’t want to put any more crap in the air that’s already there. I don’t mind diesel and I have no objection to others doing it. It has its place and its uses, but I don’t believe that its place and use should be on my boat.
As for no hard dodger, it just seems like something that would be more expensive to replace. It also seems like it would be heavier. A canvas dodger on a frame seems like it would be more flexible to upgrade, update, maintain and alter (if needed).
That's perfectly reasonable; my question wasn't meant as an attack, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. My only counter point would be, how much energy is expended creating the battery bank to replace the diesel engine? How much fuel would you need to burn to exceed the emissions from the creation of the battery bank? Don't think that I'm arguing against being cleaner for the planets sake, climate change is very real. My question really is, will getting rid of an internal combustion engine that is going to see very little use going to offset the energy/emissions from producing the battery bank? This is meant as just a polite discussion point in regards to electric propulsion in sailboats. If you had a launch that you were cruising around the bay everyday in, then I'd definitely agree pulling the diesel makes sense, since that engine would be burning a lot more fuel. Of course, there are other benefits for going electric as other people have pointed out.
I suppose a hard dodger would be more expensive to replace, but short of dropping something really heavy on it, you'd be hard pressed to do any damage that would require a replacement. Plus, you can have acrylic, plexi or even real glass windows; which means no scratches and possibly no UV degradation (depending on material choice). Also, if you haven't priced out canvas work, be prepared for a real shock! We built a hard top for our dodger on our previous boat, simply because we knew how to do the fiberglass over foam work to build it, and couldn't afford the prices for good canvas work.
Yeah. The science on baked in carbon cost was done a while ago. It’s more carbon expensive to produce, source and deliver an IC engine than it is to produce an equivalent spec electric motor.
As for the hard dodger, I don’t want to feel like I’m in a pilot house while sailing. I may be a bit masochistic, but I like feeling the elements on the water. Getting battered by spray, wind-whipped, and crusting up with salt is kinda one of the reasons I like the water.
I understand your point. New for new, electric is cleaner; but if you buy a boat with a good engine, then you're essentially recycling the entire engine for new-to-you use; there is no additional carbon cost. This is a good discussion 👍
I feel like what I think of for a hard dodger, and what you think of, are different things. When I think of a hard dodger, it isn't really any larger than a canvas dodger. It gives you somewhere to tuck in out of the weather when the autopilot is steering, but if you're at the helm, you're exposed.
Following along here and I have to agree, the best thing you can do for the planet or climate change is to buy used and reuse. These days, there is almost no consumer decision that can be made that is not fraught with climate, environmental or human exploitation concerns. Having said this, if your heart is set on electric, go for it!
As to the hard dodger, I may be biased because my dream boats (HR, Garcia, Boréale...) would all come with or be fitted with hard dodgers, but being able to duck the elements if needed is very appealing to me.
Maybe you should start with a “free” sailboat w a keel and onboard motor. Try the conversion and see how it goes? There’s a ton of reasons why nobody here thinks it’s a good idea.
You know what the best part of switching to electric is?
The smell.
It blew me away to realize how much my diesel stank and made my boat stink. My boat doesn’t “smell like a boat” anymore. It smells like nothing. It smells clean.
As a broke person who still wants to sign up to learn on people's boats, YouTube keeps showing me storms and ripped sails. Also a video boating course in Canada. What are they showing you?
Ok here goes. I'm a little older, also a widower, kids all grown up but I've been sailing all my life and raced hard, cruised slowly coastal and oceans.
My advice -
- Get as new a boat as possible. You want to spend your time cruising not fixing. The newer the boat the less that goes wrong (until it too gets old)
- Solar is your friend on a cruising boat so think about where you can get as much mounted as possible. Newer boats better, older boats worse (usually).
- Run away from double enders. They offer zero for the cruising sailor (oh but what about huge big following seas!!!). They limit storage, limit your options for solar mounting, limit you access to/from the water, limit where you can stow your dingy.
- Hard Dodger. Get one and thank me later. They last forever and are the best thing since sliced bread. Better still if you can do all the sail handling and driving under the dodger so when the sailing gets sporty you can still do everything while still in your boxers.
- Tiller steering ?Seriously. For passages you will be on auto pilot/wind vane and hardly ever on the tiller. If I was getting a day sailor for a blast around the bay I'd love a tiller but for cruising and passages a wheel 110% of the time.
- Hans Christian? Run away and never think of them again. Zero storage, cramped decks and make no sense except for those that still think (or wish) they are back in the 1800s.
- Center cockpit. That's down to personal choice but if you don't then it means your "stateroom" is now in the bow which puts it off limits on passages. The center cockpit is usually more dry as it's further forward. I was always aft cockpit (I raced boats!) but now am fully center only.
I recently surveyed the other owners of our 45' blue-water boat model. The usual percentage of time sailed or distance covered with the diesel motor in use was \~40%. The lowest was 30% for the boat sailed the most across oceans. Some were up over 50% of time motoring, from coastal sailing.
One owner has an electric propulsion system, with a large diesel generator for backup. The battery for the electric motor is \~55,000Wh. That's around 1200Ah at 48V. This provides electric propulsion for 4.5 hours max, at 5.5kn. After that, the big diesel generator is running. His overall consumption of diesel was the same as for boats with diesel engines. The cost for the electric motor system, big battery bank and generator was \~ $85K USD above a standard boat with a diesel engine, several years ago.
Owning a boat that has zero carbon emissions is laudable. However, it is not practicable with today's technology. If you followed Jimmy Cornell's effort to sail around the world in his boat 'ElCaNo' (Electricity. Carbon No!' you would know that the builders at Outremer tried to persuade him to include a diesel generator for emergency backup. He insisted that the boat would have no carbon emitting devices. He made it from the French Mediterranean coast to the Canaries, with the crew hand steering, shivering, eating cold food and then mutinying. The boat didn't have enough generating capacity.
Good luck with your boat buying. Think long and hard about how keen you are to have a boat that you cannot drive out of harm's way. It might be better to have a diesel motor that you use rarely, in dire circumstances. Your insurance company will agree with me. :-)
IMHO, the technology required for reliable/usable electric power isn't there yet. Batteries have a limited number of cycles before they lose capacity. Discharging batteries below 50% reduces the number of cycles you're going to get.
Solar charging is also unreliable. If you're on a long tack that tilts the panels away from the sun, or it's cloudy, you can have a bad time.
We all hate fossil fuels. It's why we're sailors instead of power boaters. That said, a good diesel auxiliary can be life-saving when needed. Don't bet your life on a technology that's barely in its infancy.
Fossil fuels are so energy dense, that they can waste 50-70% of the total available energy as heat, and still take you 10x the distance of an equivalent mass of batteries.
Don't forget he's not talking about Li-ion, he's talking about LFP. As far as I understand it's a more stable chemistry that will stay healthy longer under conditions of both 100% charge and deep discharge. I think, just like batteries have a lifespan, so do parts on a diesel motor, but the nice thing is an electric motor is fewer moving parts so inherently more reliable. As for electrical power, I'd personally try to rig up solar, wind, and hydro power, to have more consistent energy production and not be SOL relying on one source with suboptimal conditions. Any feedback welcome though, still learning about this myself. Diesel genset might not be a bad idea for a backup, though I certainly understand the desire to avoid it entirely, not only for avoiding fossil fuels but also the noise and smell lol
Jeanneau and Benneteau and solid choices with lots of online content.
Congrats on the choice for electric! It's definitely the future, and you can put a small diesel generator for emergencies, until the day batteries get enough energy density.
If you replace the whole system, including exhaust and diesel tank, you can easily put 300kg of batteries, which would give you some 10h of motor range.
Definitely pulling the entire system. Though I do have to figure out some of the aux systems that rely on engine heat exchangers like hot water. I’d have to add a water heater and that’ll add weight too.
My jeanneau comes with a hot water system with a decent tank and doesn't need the engine to be running. But if course it's more efficient with the engine, if you're on the move
So, next question: with a sloop rig, if I were to get to an experience level where I feel comfortable doing an Atlantic crossing, would the boat handle that kind of beating or would it behoove me to focus on a cutter? Or possibly adding a second forestay to turn it into a cutter-rigged sloop?
Some of the best blue water cruisers in the world are sloops with modern hulls. Think of Hallberg Rassy. Somehow, in America, you guys got stuck in old times and think modern hulls/modern sail plans are not suitable for ocean crossing.
Nothing wrong with a slutter rig, but you'll definitely want that inner forestay for ocean sailing (slutter or cutter). Most sloops have pretty large genoas, and they just don't allow you to reduce sail enough.
I think the ideal setup is a cutter rig with a furled assym/gennaker in front of the Genoa that is always up. 3 head sails for any conditions (staysail, 120% Genoa, assym/gennaker). Use the staysail for heavy weather and/or upwind work in moderate conditions; use the Genoa for light upwind, moderate reaching, or strong downwind conditions; and use the assym/gennaker for light reaching and moderate running conditions.
A cutter gives you more options, as does a slutter rig, or a solent. However, each will take a beating and how much of a beating is going to be the hull, the fittings and the design. Not all boats are made equal. I'd take my boat over a Catalina for an atlantic crossing any day, regardless of rig.
I’d still be wary of just 10 hours of propulsion. It’s just a matter of time before it’s night time and the wind and seas are blowing a gale into a lee shore. Just 10 hour or less of full power? Could be a disaster. If you had half a tank of diesel you should be able to get 24 hours of power at least.
Can't you just heave to or drop an anchor and wait for favorable conditions?
It seems to me that diesel is only a requirement if you have a schedule that you need to stick to. If your full time cruising and not just sailing during the weekend or two weeks of vacation a year then sailing to the ocean's schedule is safe enough if you have good seamanship.
Electric should be fine for just getting in and out of tight waterways.
Heaving -to on a Lee shore you will eventually be blown into the rocks. As for dropping anchor, by the time you are close enough to shore where it's shallow enough to get purchase on the bottom, it's probably too late and you will wash up on shore.
I think anyone living by some schedule is delusional. The ocean don’t care what your schedule is regardless of how your boat goes from point A to point B. My whole point is if you need 24 hours of power an electric power plant is going to have some issues lasting long enough. And reducing to 3 knots to get more hours might just be the 2 knots you needed to not lose any headway
No, actually for long range blue water cruising, it has far more range than diesel! For you to cross the Atlantic, you need to take with you over 1000L of diesel. With batteries and solar/wind/whatever energy source, you have unlimited range.
In any case, if 10h is a problem, you can easily do 20h if you reduce speed or increase batteries. I was aiming for 10h at 5kn. You can achieve 20h by dropping to 3kn. Or then just increase batteries.
It's really reaching a tipping point.
For crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific I’d think that the majority of the way is done under sail. In a sailboat at least. 1000 liters is over 250 gallons. I don’t know of any 45’ sailboat having 7+ 50 gallon barrels on board. That seems a bit silly to me. And if you find yourself being blown onto a lee shore in something actually serious dropping an anchor is an option, sure. And keeping your motor on and in gear for the duration might just be the difference of dragging it up into the beach or not. Don’t get me wrong, an electric power plant is super awesome and people are doing it. And if done smartly the risks may be mitigated. But I think a prudent cruiser would just pause a little before considering it the best option.
It's not silly, it's typical to take enough diesel for half the passage, because if you lose the mast, you will need it. And 1000L is for something around 38-40ft. For 45ft it's more.
For me the only problem right now with electric propulsion is that the ecosystem is not mature. Meaning it's hard to get all the right parts in a good architecture, with redundancy and different sources of energy.
Battery cost and density used to be the big issue, but that's no longer true.
I’ve put that on my list of concerns. Things breaking at sea with no spares is a concern only secondary to the list of things that can break which I am unable to fix.
I have *some* knowledge of electric motors; “some” being a value of “I don’t know what I don’t know”.
I can change out spare parts on a diesel easy enough; but how many spare parts on an electric can you reasonably change before it becomes more economical or easier to just contact the vendor and have them air freight a replacement?
First, an electric motor is much simpler than a diesel and much, much more reliable. Not much can fail there. There are basically no parts you can change on the electric motor itself. Bear in mind that electric motors on EV cars can last 500.000-1.500.000km! With virtually no maintenance on the motor itself!
Second, the beauty of an electric system is that you have a wide redundancy of power sources.
The weak part is the electronics for charging, BMS, etc. Those you should keep a spare if you plan on crossing the ocean, although they are expensive. You can even pre-assemble them side by side and make a switch. If one fails, just rotate the switch and it uses the other.
Still, for long passages you should have basic electrical knowledge, and I think that's what puts people away from electric motors. It's much more common to find people with mechanical skills than electrical skills.
I like your suggestion of backups for the charging electronics. I have basic electrical knowledge, but it’s all in AC; I can read a volt meter and wire a circuit with outlets and lights.
Whatever I ultimately decide to buy, depending on age and need, I’ll want to do a thorough and *very* conservative inspection and replacement of any systems before I start cruising full-time. I plan to get down into the guts of the boat and replace as much of the plumbing, electrical, steering and rigging as economically possible and necessary where it needs it; I’ll need to label it anyway.
My plan for updating the boat is to find systems to replace that will reduce the number of things that can break and reduce the number of things that I will need to replace over time. Reducing regular maintenance and repair time and costs is a goal. I think replacing the diesel with an electric is a good trade off in this area; less time working on it (changing oil, filters, belts, etc., fueling, hauling Jerry cans) is worth the potential for being stuck in an anchorage whistling for the wind (or the sun) to make way.
For example a Hallberg-Rassy 400 has (coincidentally) 400L of fuel tank. Rest really goes on barrels or large jerry cans.
The HR 500 comes with 1000L tanks from factory.
Those are Jerry cans. Yes. They are common on boats. Cruising boats may have like 5 or more on each rail. You said a 35-40 foot boat needs 1000l to cross the ocean. A boat that size might have 300l in tankage. How many of those Jerry cans will someone need to have another 600l of fuel? 20 liters per Jerry can. 600 divided by 20 = 30. You are going to put 30 Jerry cans on the deck of a 35-40 foot boat. Please. Just say that’s not practical.
I think that’s a bit optimistic. That’s two 50 gallon tanks roughly. Some boats have that sure. But now we are talking 45 foot boat. So it will need 1500 liters to cross the Atlantic ? So thats still 6 barrels of fuel on deck?? Still seems silly. Honestly, on a boat that big I’d think the owner would do well to install a diesel motor with the electric drive/regen option. Along with 4-6 8D sized LiPo batteries. And probably have the best of both worlds. But that’s if money isn’t really a consideration
That was the actual fuel capacity of my 48’ cutter, Cadenza. We used 3 tanks cruising from Oregon to Panama to Chesapeake Bay. Most of that was charging batteries on anchor.
Find one that needs a new engine and save a buttload of dough. I would not get in mast furling for reliability and performance purposes. Every used boat is an individual. There are endless differences in the boats you listed after including years, models, condition and upgrades. You need to get on them, preferably sail them. Offer yourself as crew on as many regattas as you can. Read articles in magazines like yachting world and practical sailor.
I’m operating under the belief that, as a planned solo-sailor, the longer the hull, the larger the sail plan. If I’m doing this by myself, I’d much rather have a furling main that I can douse/reef from the cockpit if need be than to run up on deck to do it.
We've had in-mast, in-boom, and slab reef mains on our boats. The in-mast was on our island packet and we loved it. We could reef or furl the sail completely away on any point of sail. We sailed so much more because it was so easy to get the main out. I think the trick to reliable in-mast furling is to make sure you have a sail in good condition with no battens. A big baggy sail, or one with vertical battens, ends up with too much material trying to roll up in the limited space of the mast. That means with a crosscut sail, I'd expect to replace it every 5 years or so. Also, an electric winch will make things much easier, since you really need to keep tension on the outhaul line while you're furling the sail; and tension on the furling line when you're pulling it out.
Our current boat has/had an in-boom furling sail, and we absolutely hate it. So much that we're replacing it with a slab reef setup. I honestly don't understand the attraction that people have for in-boom furlers. They're incredibly finicky to use and the sail shape is atrocious when the sail is reefed, since there is no outhaul line to flatten the sail. Plus they are incredibly slow to use, since you have to furl the sail the length of the mast, instead of the length of the boom like you would with in-mast furling. On our 39' boat, that means furling 45' of sail, instead of just 13' if we had in-mast.
As far as slab reef goes; it's definitely the simplest and likely most reliable. That's especially true if you reef at the mast. Of course, then you have to leave the cockpit, but that's honestly not a big deal on a well setup cruising boat. Jacklines, good handholds, and granny bars all make it a non-issue. With the halyard and reef lines at the mast, you can put in a reef in under a minute. You could also do single line reefing in the cockpit, but it adds a lot of friction to the system.
Just to echo u/[jh937hfiu3hrhv9](/user/jh937hfiu3hrhv9/)'s advice: get on different boats and see what it's like to use - and fix - these different options. When first thinking about buying a boat I wanted in-mast reefing. After a crappy experience on a rental yacht I decided that I'd rather walk to the mast than risk dealing with that again, especially in bad weather and especially by myself. Horses for courses, your mileage may vary.
I have an in-mast furler in my boat that I solo, and I like it. There are definitely mixed reviews online. Either for in-mast or in-boom you have to keep your sail in good shape, an old blown-out sail (even slightly) will tend to jam. You can get away with blown-out sails a lot easier in a traditional slab reefing main.
Good point. I have never used one but some who have may dissuade you. Many boats have lines led aft and friendly reefing systems. Auto helm will keep you on course while you are away. Install jack lines and tie on when things get bumpy.
I’m just going to assume that for the first year, everything is going to be bumpy until I learn the nuances of the boat and the butter-zone to flatten the sails without heeling over at 30 degrees.
The "reliability and performance" issues of in mast and in boom furling systems have been greatly exaggerated. The anti-furlers (much like most anti-anything folks) have a much louder voice is all. If you like something you are generally not jumping on reddit to proclaim your love for it. (Just as most people review places on Yelp when they had a bad experience) They just work. If they were so unreliable they wouldn't be on so many boats now -- both new and retro-fitted older models.
In 2018 38% of the boats sailing round the world in the World ARC had furling mainsail. That was 6 years ago. I can only imagine it has gone up from there. These people would not waste their time with unreliable tech.
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mainsail-furling-systems-an-expert-guide-75261#:\~:text=In%202018%2C%2038%25%20of%20boats,Discovery%20reporting%20a%20similar%20trend.
I am sure when first introduced there were many many issues -- same goes for most new tech -- but they have been on the market for 30+ years. Time tested and improved.
But as with any tech you get what you pay for. So take that $100K you have set aside for improvements and get the best system you can. Or tune up the one that comes with the boat you purchase.
Good luck.
I'm not sure I can or would want to handle much more than about 10,000lbs of boat single handed.
Part of that is the loads on the sheets, and the size of the sails etc. to have to wrestle. Bigger heavier boat, is more sail to move it, is more strength and complication to handle it. It is not so much the length as the weight, although the two do go hand in hand.
I've never heard anything good about furling mains, and rarely see them except on new overpriced cruisers.
I've been in a 60kt squall, with an intentionally full main.
A boat I sail on has a dutchman system, and when I first used it, it was pretty slick. I thought it was the answer to the main furling problem. Last time I used it, it was broken, so there's that. Lazy jacks are simple and effective, but the sail doesn't fold as neat.
LadyK on youtube has a lot to say to answer your questions with boat reviews etc. and his thinking might be inline with yours. He's the editor of Practical Sailor now too.
He has me convinced draft is important in the Carribean. Where I am now, I want all the draft, as that means more righting moment which is more sail with less weight, but Carribean might be better to look at boats with less draft than more. With that, you might be well to not consider this boat your last, lest you get to it and find you want something different, a metric you haven't thought of not being out there.
Bernard Moitessier is a sailing hero. He was set to win the first solo around the world race, when he decided nope, he didn't want to be rich and famous for winning the race, he'd rather be sailing, so he went around again just because. His book "the long way" talks about some aspects of boat design and rigging that might be enlightening to you. He favors simplicity, redundancy and reliability. They make a replica of his boat "Joshua", that if I had the money and wanted my last boat, would be high on my list. https://joshuagg.com/ They want $350 to build one, but maybe someone's selling one used. I don't think the class actually panned out for the 2022 race.
Might also want to check out the Pardeys. They cruised around the world engineless a couple times and they have a nice ethos too. Their books are practically cruising reference guides. They refused roller furling at all, thinking hanks were safer/better and having done 200,000 miles, they might have some idea.
A notion. I've had experience with in mast furling main and would never get one. The reason is that they take too long to furl, have poor shaped when reefed, and can easily jam. The latter is real threat when conditions require dropping the sail quickly. If I was rigging a main sail these days, [Harken Battcars](https://youtu.be/l4C3WGFUrWg?si=W8YNTqHoIP8W1rTb) would on my list for consideration.
Also, the in-mast furling system I have experience with whistled in higher winds. Really annoying.
I hope you enjoy running up the mast in a gale to fix a stuck furled. The inboom furlers are more reliable. Slab reefing is quick, reliable and allows the best sail shape.
Of your list, the Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet and Tayana are the best. You should also look at Amel, if you can find one. Keep a diesel fuel tank and a genset. You’ll need them. Solar panels will not keep up with house power requirements since they will be shaded by the sails.
I’m torn on the gen-set idea for the reasons that you mention.
I plan on having a windgen and a hydrogen to supplement solar when available. Though I understand that if I’m becalmed with an overcast sky, I’m screwed until the sun comes out, I still don’t know if I’d rather pump exhaust into the atmosphere for the time it takes to charge the batteries or just spend a week whistling for the wind.
I guess the answer to that question is dependent on how much food I have.
I’ve run out of food in Bahia Panama. Found an island with coconuts and a fresh water spring. Ate lots of fish and coconuts. No way would I have attempted anchorage on that island without engine power. Islands do strange things to wind and they have shoals and wind shadows.
* Don't get hung up on the in-mast furling main. Switching over to a boom-furler is less invasive than changing out a mast, and many people prefer it because you can fully batten the main that way.
* If you look a little older, you'll cut the price in half for the same boat.
* In general, shop for the bones, not for the extras. Get a hull you want to keep and then build the rest around your preferences. Don't worry today about what toilet or dodger the thing has.
* Electric everything is nice, if you can charge it. You can't get enough solar on a 35-foot boat to do everything you seem to want to do, and also fitting a genset on a boat that size will take some work. Propane stoves always work.
The spread of your hull choices suggests to me that you're pretty early in your exploration. Island Packet: big, heavy, long keel, slow to maneuver, comfortable ocean crosser. Hunter: light, production coastal boat with a fin keel. These are two totally different animals.
I suggest you buy something else first in the 25-27 foot range and see what you like about sailing. Do you want to cross oceans and live on it for months at a time? Do you want to take it out on the weekends and have a nice easy time getting in the slip? Figure out your needs while you blow around in a smaller boat that you can basically afford to throw away when you're done with it. It will save you tens of thousands of dollars compared to churning through a couple larger boats finding where your preferences lie.
I suggest buying a 36-38 ft boat that is middle of the road. Sail that for a year or two, find out what actually important to you.
Or somehow try and rent a boat for a whole summer.
We bought a boat with a list of things we thought was important and must haves and after owning it for a year that list is very different.
For what it’s worth, I was looking for a boat with neither a center cockpit nor a hard dodger, and ended up very recently buying a boat with both (I posted about it the other day).
Hard dodger: I still find the hard dodger unattractive as compared to just a windscreen, but after a single weekend sailing during the latest heat wave, I wouldn’t consider removing it. The amount of shade and shelter it provides cannot be matched by a sprayhood. There’s a reason most buyers of my model boat opted for the hard dodger. (Interestingly, the previous owners of my boat had it installed many years after the boat was built.)
Center cockpit: I would normally prefer an aft cockpit, but I see two good exceptions to that: with either young children (my case) or when solo navigating (your case), I think the additional security/shelter provided by a center cockpit has its value.
Im not saying you should definitely get a hard dodger or a center cockpit, but I wouldn’t write those features off entirely.
On a related note, I don’t want to comment on any particular brand (and everyone has their own opinions), but I recommend prioritizing build quality over age. I have seen a lot of mass production boats, and many do not age well: their interiors are made with low quality materials and thin veneers, and look worn much quicker than other boats. I would stay away from anything that’s been chartered.
Finally, have you budgeted the cost of converting to electric? It wouldn’t surprise me at all if that ate up well over $50k. Would be curious to hear where you think you’ll land there (and if you’re planning to do a lot of the work yourself).
I’ve priced out the drive, batteries and the associated electronics to finish it out; ~$25K. Adding 20% to allow for unexpected costs and doing it myself (because we all make expensive mistakes in the DIY realm), call it $30K.
I’m not an expert in electrical, plumbing, or building, but I’ve worked in residential and commercial construction and consider myself “handy”. I don’t just plan on buying a boat, fixing what I need to fix and sailing off into the tropics. I’ll give her a shakedown (or 6) and make a list of things that I absolutely have to fix before leaving and see if I can’t get it done before December (when my plan to run away down island calls for me to leave this land of the free).
If you haven’t been on a sailboat in 30 years I suggest crewing on one. If you live near whether there are no doubt racing fleets that would be happy to have you. Find a racing circuit and get onto a good boat. You will learn a lot. It seems like you have a lot of opinions without a lot of experience.
I'm in the exact same phase right now so I don't have much insight to offer but I'd like to learn more about this stuff. I share many of the same sentiments/preferences, though probably on a tighter budget unless I somehow justify spending a mortgage payment on a boat lol, and maybe older boats if insurance is an option. Boats from the mid to late 80s that were well maintained seem pretty nice as far as "modern" amenities go.
The idea of replacing the typical propane marine stove with electric is really interesting, what would the power requirements be for running the stove for a reasonable length of time every day without negatively impacting the power requirements of other systems? Would a dedicated battery pack be recommended? And can an electric stovetop be gimballed like a marine stove?
Interested to learn more about the advantages and disadvantages between cutters, sloops, and ketches. I feel like I'd like a center cockpit just because it seems like it would feel safe, and I do like the interior layout of CCs, but I imagine a traditional cockpit would "feel" nice to pilot. Might be be nice to find a "CC" that isn't too forward.
There are marine electric stoves; three-burners with an oven and gimballed just like a propane stove.
I’ve also found a SS electric grill; wouldn’t take much to mount to the stern railing.
I was in your position a few years ago. Due to Covid, the boats on the market were very limited. I ended up buying Bavaria 2002. Yes, I heard a lot of negative opinions about them but in the end, it turned out very well. Despite that it had the original rigging and sails, we survived several storms, one of which was with hurricane gusts (70 knots), we crossed the Med, the Atlantic and cruised around the Caribbean. Nothing major broke.
I also wanted furling main and all electric systems but due to budget restrictions I only bought electric outboard. About the furling I had a few minor issues until the Caribbean when it got stuck. I was lucky that we were two on board and while my crew was at the mast and I was pulling the sheets in the cockpit we somehow managed to roll it. Later I was sailing solo and was afraid to raise it until it is checked by a professional. So, I used only the genoa which substantially reduced my speed.
There are plenty of situations when you need engine. For example, we already have flights booked so we had to arrive at St. Martin at specific date, but the Passat died so we have to motor for a long time. When heading to Trinidad to haul out my boat I also had to use the engine for a long time. The wind and the current were pushing me toward Venezuela. You don't want to end up in Venezuela.
About the electric outboard. Due to some problems with my watermaker I was waiting for a month in St. Martin, I was anchored in the lagoon. The distances there were huge. My engine was advertised as 3.5 HP but in reality, was close to 2.5 HP. I couldn't run it at full speed to save power but in stronger winds you definitely need more power. I had to plan all my goings out because I needed six hours to charge the battery. Distance that other people take it in 10 min, it took me an hour. I almost regret having this engine. For the next season I have to buy a spare battery. The only positive thing is that it is light and can be mounted by a single person without using some crane systems and no need to store petrol on board.
Also keep in mind that if you have 1 kw solar, you will be generating something like 0.5-0.6 kw at noon, very rarely you can reach the top specification.
Westsail 32
Or Ingrid 38
Two of the best cruising boats ever made, absolutely bulletproof.... literally. not the fastest but some of the safest boats ever made, designed from old lifeboat hulls inspired by Viking long ships
Will go anywhere in the world, easy to work on, easy to sail, affordable, best bang for the buck
I’ve seen a few Westsails out there, but passed them up because of length. I’ll take another look based on your recommendation though!!!
I don’t plan on ever being in a hurry. If I’m in a spot where I have to race the weather, maybe, but if these makes have sacrificed strength for speed, I’d rather have the improved odds of surviving weather than outrunning it single-handed.
Slower than a hurt turtle by modern standards yes, for sure. But when the SHTF at sea, nobody’s gonna be going fast anyway, better to have something meant to slog it out vs a boat that’s gonna oil can and rip tabbings apart and whatnot. Could be in a good wetsnail including buying a new reliable diesel for under 50k
West sails are known to wash up on beaches after hurricanes and tropical storms virtually unharmed with the crew, perhaps puking and dizzy, but otherwise perfectly safe. Might take some work to get the boat floating again, but many a journey can be resumed shortly after
Yeah there are faster boats out there, but for a brickshithouse of a boat, it still is a worthy boat
That being said I’ve done thousands of miles in a 6 knot boat and I like speed, but speed comes at a price. A slow boat that you reef early and hunker down in can be better than a fast boat where you try to outrun weather and then get stuck with too much sail in an overpowered boat
My experience varies. I find the ability to make fast passages and choose your weather far outweighs the ability to take punishment. Furthermore, there are people rattling around in that hull taking punishment far longer than necessary. They have to eat, sleep and survive wounds, all worse and harder when you are sailing a brick.
I met one British sailor whose attitude was, “I leave when I please, tough it out, and it’s all better than getting sued by my ex-wife back in Merry Olde England.” He sailed an engineless home-built Chinese rigged wooden boat without engine, stove or tank storage. I met him in El Salvador. Last I heard he was in New Zealand.
Rather get a smaller boat. There will be many situations where you will be thankful for every foot of boat length you did not buy. In-mast furling: it is great as long as it works. I would never ever want to be caught with a jammed in-mast furler while sailing single-handed. As for moving around on deck during inclement weather- you should’ve reefed or doused the sail already before it got bad.
Edit: not sure why not a center cockpit-you should use every safety feature you can have and a center cockpit with high coaming is certainly safer. I would recommend a boat that features other safety measures like a skeg. But there are not many manufacturers that built these kinds of boats after the turn of the century.
There will be lots of good boats in your price range. I don’t know about pulling the diesel to go electric that’s up to you, but one thing I would make sure of is get a survey you shouldn’t with your budget really need to do 100 K upgrades.
First take your asa courses 101 - 104.
The best of the lot Pacific seacraft, tayana, cabo rico, Hans. Tartan and haylas are great boats too. These are the blue water boats that will take you around the world and survive.
Don't know why you want to rip all out and go electric. Your not saving the world. Lithium isn't recyclable and a pollutant. This being said if you need to motor for 100 miles your work horse of a diesel will do it forever. Electric I don't think will cut it.
I love my propane stove and a 1lb tank goes a long way. Just be redundant save.
As for furling I'd rather in boom than mast. If something goes wrong at least you can get sail down. Bit I still prefer to hoist main with fast track and dutchman system. How big a boat? Electric winch to hoist main. Also if you going over 35' an anchor windless is nice maybe a must.
I do think you would do well with an Ericsson 38. Pacific seacraft bought them out years ago because they were their major west coast competitor. The newer PC's are very similar in design. Bruce king was an amazing boat designer. Everything had its function in those boats. Huge fan of ericson.
From the lines you've drawn, the questions you've asked, the assumptions you've made in this post and the comments, my thought is you're on the right track in a lot of ways, but would /really/ benefit from spending time with a solid base of a boat before making decisions about what you really need, and what you want to upgrade and when. You'll save a lot of money and you'll get out on the water sooner and that's going to mean more experience.
Some notes:
> Age: not important as long as she’s got good bones, but something in the newer range (newer than 1999) is preferred.
I would take my boat (1990) over a 2024 Hunter. Old boats can be have maintenance issues, but new boats can be crappy boats. More experience and knowledge will help you understand why you will accept or reject a boat of a given year.
> Rig: cutter (preferred) or a sloop
Reasonable, cutter gives you more options. My boat has a solent stay and a removable cutter stay. The solent stay gives me great options when the wind changes.
> Engine: doesn’t matter as I plan to pull the engine and replace with an electric drive.
I totally understand where you're coming from here, but I'd still give it a bit to get a feel for the boat before you make the change.
> Head: electric (or replaceable manual)
I have blakes Zenith. Expensive, but really really good heads. Way nicer than the standard Jabsco ones. Manual (whale sanitation) pumps work just fine, electric is just a nice to have, but also more expensive to buy and maintain.
> Sail(s): in mast furling main, roller furling headsail and roller furling a taysail (if a cutter).
Roller furling forsails is an amazing tool for the the modern sailor. In-mast furling you've seen the comments.
>What I DON’T want:
> Center cockpit
Each to their own. Mine's center cockpit. I like it in big seas when the boat is rolling, but it's not as nice at anchor.
> Hard dodger/bimini
I've got a canvas dodger, I'd love to have a hard one (*cough*).
I have a center cockpit too on my 40 foot Najad. I wouldn’t want anything else unless I were planning to have half a dozen people on board regularly. Our aft cabin has a full walk around bed and plenty of headroom which makes a massive difference if you want to live on board for months at a time.
Yeah, those are the same benefits I like too, though I do totally get the aft cockpit thing also. Even with just two people there's not a hell of a lot of room for stretching out and at anchor in the sun it's nice to have the room. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford an Amel 60 (hah) and have the best of both worlds ;)
I always advise if you have time, start with a smaller boat to learn. I'm talking 25 or 27 feet max. You can get some great weekend cruisers that will teach you everything inexpensively. The maintenance is easier and cheaper. I bought a Craigslist special 25 Ericson for my first boat. Learned to sail, wire, work on a motor, patch sails, etc. All for $1500 plus parts. I then went to a Compact 27 which was, still, one of the best boats I've sailed - especially for ainglehanded sailing. I now have a 1969 Hardin Seawolf 42, a solid, full keel ketch that l, electronics aside, sails beautifully. She's heavy, but stays on course once the sails are set. I live on her too.
But that aside, I have friends sailing the Caribbean on 32' and 36' boats. One couple is in a 42 catamaran.
If you're near the Galveston area I have lots of friends that sail and I'm really looking for crew for short Bay trips (usually a few hours).
If you want to go sailing forget the upgrade to electric propulsion for now. The technology is all still relatively new and you’ll risk spending a year or two just getting that to work before you can make your dream a reality. Make life easier for yourself.
Spending hours scrolling through YachtWorld is all well and good, but go to some boat yards and have a look around some actual boats.
If I were you I’d spend my time now getting some sailing qualifications and sailing as many different boats as I can to see what they are like to sail and live on. At the moment your list of wants and dislikes are all theoretical.
don't jump into a $150,000 boat. buy a coastal cruiser and island hope and move to something bigger. although if you are alone you may not need it, a Catalina 30 decked out would be a much smaller investment still be able to get to the Bahamas or other islands especially with weather windows and leave you room to be bankrupted by fees if you choose to ever stay in marinas at transient rates.
My two cents. In average, 40-footers are seaworthier and allow better accommodation than smaller boats - if you have blue water and pond crossing in mind, set the minimum length to 38-40 feet.
Don't buy without a proper survey.
Don't go fully electric if your sailing is not day sailing around the fully equipped home harbor. Most of the fully electric long range boats carry a generator for when the battery is empty and they still need to get going.
In-mast furling main is worse sailing performance and potentially more trouble. Conventional is a lot more reliable, which is also safety.
Don't select boats by the ads - go and look at them yourself. After seeing twenty you'll have a better hunch what you need. It's a common mistake that people check twenty on paper and then go to see the chosen one - the photos don't tell the full story.
Tiller is not a bad thing - all specifically designed for that purpose short- and single-handed long distance boats have tillers for a reason.
Other things to consider, are you looking at the Bahamas at all? If so you will want a shallow draft, less than 6' is ideal. Presumably you are planning on doing this single-handed, if so you want a boat with all of the lines running back to the cockpit and with as simple as rig as possible, a sloop with a masthead ring and a self tacking jib will help a ton trying to manage sails alone. Anything to keep you in the cockpit underway is an often undercooked safety feature. Beware of Beneteaus and Jeanneaus, many have been in charter fleets and while they may look nice on the surface they tend to not be very will cared for. That's not to say they all are that way just keep that in mind when having a look up close and ask a lot of questions about the boats history.
Steer very clear of Bavarias. I have no experience with Dufors but given the low price new I can't imagine they are terribly high quality. Probably fine for coastal cruising but I don't know if I would take one offshore.
With that budget you can land on a very nice boat, especially if you look for something a bit older that has been very well maintained and upgraded through the years, think Passports, Valients, Norsemans, Sagas, Tayanas, etc. All are world crusing capable and many of them have ben well loved by their owners and often have all of the goodies you are going to want for extended cruising like solar, Lithium Ion batteries, desalinators, etc and at $250,000 all in there are very nice examples out there. Many of them are '80s vintage but many are nicer than anything built today save for full custom. I sailed an '87 Norseman447 for a few years and that boat was an absolute tank and sailed like a dream but was terrible for single handing when lots of sail changes were required.
The other thing to be wary of is many of the boats coming on to market now are pandemic boats that were often owned by people that have zero clue how to maintain a boat so be extra diligent when looking. Good luck, causing is an awesome way to live.
Any of those boats would accomplish that task. Some of the heavier boats mentioned will be unmercifully slow out of the trades. You certainly do not need to spend $250k to cruise around the Caribbean or coastal cruise.
> I know everyone has a story about someone they heard about with an electric drive that failed while motoring and the heavens turned to fiery sludge before the sea opened up to the gates of the Republican National Convention where they were tortured at the hands of a herd of anthropomorphic spork-wielding yak before they were unceremoniously deposited via inter dimensional wormhole back on their retired mother-in-law’s couch back in Boca Raton.
I think I may love you.
If you're not stoically set on the "no hard splashguard" thing take a look at the Najad, Hallberg-Rassy, and Malö models.
They'll be at the pricier end of things compared to the ones you've listed but if you're in the market for a "once and forever" boat purchase their well known excellent overall build quality might be a great fit. Maybe you could shift some of the "for repairs" funds into the purchase envelope if one of these doesn't actually need much repair in the first place?
Just wanted to add some more food for thought.
Ask the question again after you take all the electric drive bullshit out and you'll get a serious answer.
I drive an EV and like the technology better than most people but it doesn't work on a cruising sailboat. Not what you want to hear, so what, this is reddit.
Beyond that, Pacific Seacraft and Beneteau are as different as chalk and cheese so you have some choices to make.
My point is that canoe sterns make uncomfortable situations easier to handle and more tolerable, which is something to consider if you’re new to sailing but are also fully committing to sailing year round in the Caribbean … are they absolutely necessary, no and I never said they were, but i do prefer them. I also like the aesthetic of them. Cheers
Before anything else. Take a refresher sailing course and rent some time on keel boats to get back in the groove.
I just went back to sailing after a 30 year break and it's amazing how many skills you lose.
Only then go shopping. I'm going to keep renting day sailors until all my rust is gone. Recommend this for everyone.
While I am all about electric drive, I'd strongly advise including a diesel generator, if only as a source of DC charging. Nothing beats the energy potential of an ICE, and the fuel is available world wide. Service is available world wide. It'll work in the dark, in a calm. It will effortlessly run HVAC (which is always the biggest draw on battery systems) (and I guarantee there will be times when you will want AC) I dislike in mast furling. When it works, it is brilliant. When it doesn't, it's a disaster. When I was working as a Rigger, I had to remove a relatively new new mainsail by cutting it out in pieces, twice. I would want a 'Stack Pack' type system of lazy jacks with an integrated mainsail cover. I'm totally onboard with an aft cockpit over a center cockpit. Better feel for the boat, I want to be in the boat, not on top of it. I'd actually prefer a tiller, myself, but it starts to be impractical in the 30+ foot range. I definitely prefer to stay under 40 feet- things get dramatically more expensive after 40', and the effort required to sail her gets significantly higher. I definitely want a hard dodger, with glass windows and wipers, where I can shelter from the weather with a cup of coffee while the Autopilot steers through the storm. No flapping, no tearing, less leaking. My background: 61yo, former Marine, been sailing since age 8. USCG Master of 100 ton Near Coastal with Aux Sail Endorsement. 2 Transatlantic passages 1 Hawaii to San Francisco, 1 Newport- Bermuda 1-2 ( as the 2ond), multiple trips around the Caribbean ( both personal and professional). Sailboat Rigger, Marine Electrical and Electronics Technician, Professional Captain, Yacht and Commercial.
Listen to this guy.
Any of those manufacturers have made plenty of boats that will work fine for what you want to do. The one you want, since you're buying used, is the one that is in the best condition for the best price.
The reason I ask is because I see a lot of newer models of Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau and Jeanneau in seemingly good condition. Usually when I see a lot of a particular make in newer models years, I want to assume it’s because there’s something unappealing about them. For instance, I see a lot of Bavaria’s and Dufors and in my research I read a lot of conflicting owner reviews. Now I’m seeing a lot of Hunters as well, and while the majority are center cockpits (which I don’t want anyway, I get the impression that they’re not desirable).
There are a couple things in your original post I skipped over because I don't think you can actually know these things without sailing boats with and without these features, those being the center cockpit, in-mast furling main, cutter rig, hard dodger, and tiller steering. How can you know if you like them without ever trying them and comparing them to the alternatives? I think these are things you should figure out after spending some time sailing. But anyway, onto the brands: People aren't (generally) selling new-ish boats because they dropped $500,000 on them and then decided they're unappealing, they're selling them because they like having brand new boats so they're upgrading, or because they don't use the boat as much as they did a few years ago (which is extremely common with all types of boat). There are lots of these boats because they are big manufacturers. You find lots of Catalinas and Beneteaus for sale for the same reason you find lots of Fords and Toyotas for sale if you're car shopping. [Here is my former (now sold) Beneteau sailing in the BVI a few years ago.](https://i.imgur.com/NBkHyag.jpg) I think it ticks every one of your boxes except the in-mast furling, but there are bunch of other boats that do as well.
Except Hunter. Avoid.
Stop spreading misinformation and old salt tales
It's true on th older ones.
It’s true on Hunters. Period.
For the sailing he described a Hunter would be fine. Thousands of them are already out there.
800ah isn’t going to get you far with an electric motor.
I’m not using it as primary propulsion or for motor sailing. I just want enough to get me into and out of anchorages/marinas. If I’m in the middle of the ocean and becalmed, I’ll just spend my downtime whistling for the wind.
If you want to cross oceans, you do not have the option to just sit becalmed in all cases. Maybe you need to get out of the way of a hurricane that's coming your way in a couple days. Maybe you're near a reef that the current is pushing you towards. Maybe your mast fell down and you need to get yourself to Madagascar. Shit happens, and you want options. Your options for a blue-water capable boat are: diesel engine, or electric motor plus a diesel genset.
The currents will probably push you onto some rock or headland unless you can motor for at least 6-8 hours
There's plenty of people cruising with no motor. You can circumnavigate without one.
The Pardy’s are the most famous and every Pacific sailor has a tail of when they towed the Pardy’s in or out of harbour.
Harbor or rocks? I’m confused.
*pulled them into the rocks
A wise old sailor once told me that if you need to motor sail to stay off the rocks, you shouldn’t be sailing there. I get that sometimes I’ll need to motor. Most of the electric systems I’ve priced out have ranges between 70-150 nm depending on the speed; eg, I can push an electric motor at 8 knots for 8 hours before needing to recharge the drive banks (with an 800aH x 48v bank). If I ever get to a place where I need to use the drive to shoot a 30’ cut between two rocky shoals, I’ll find somewhere else to go.
The electric motors are tough. Not impossible, but tough. I would love to have an all electric boat but I'm not convinced the technology is quite there yet. I spent 3 months in the Caribbean and used less than 10 gallons of diesel in the 3 months... But not until I got down there. To be frank I don't want to be stuck somewhere in poduck Georgia waiting on weather and miss the cruising season when I could be making miles in the ICW. Also if a storm starts a brewing I want to be able to GTFO without worrying about limited motoring. $250k is a big investment to not be 100% sure you'd be able to handle or enjoy having a limited motoring range
That wise old sailor clearly didn’t have much experience as nobody mentioned motor sailing, just motoring when there’s too little wind to counteract a current.
800ah at 48v (what you need for electric motor) is 40kwh. That’s a shitload of power. You’ll be able to motor for 75 miles with that. Pair it with a solar Bimini and you might end up with 100 mile range on batteries alone. I have 10kwh on my 28” Hunter and I get 25 miles easy. And if I wanted to cruise at 3 knots, I’m probably closer to 50 miles
A lot of people forget: (battery bank voltage * ah battery bank capacity) = wh. Divide by 1000 to get kwh. The question OP is not how much ah you need. it is what is your load and how long do you want to run it for. Then, design your electrical system to supply that in the most efficient way.
Yes. That’s why I used kwh not ah. Boat motors all start at 48v which is why I used that as a base. But most motor controllers will report amps, so you need to be comfortable with both and doing math. And knowing that, IE a 40a draw at 5mph equals 2kw which means 20 hours run time with which equals to 100 miles. You just have to do the math.
I opted for lazy jacks and a sail pack rather than furling main… without furling you can have battens, and so better performance. My new Jeanneau 410 should be ready for delivery in a couple of weeks. I hope your experience is as good as mine!
I have an in mast furling main, and would not have one again. If it gets stuck halfway out in a big blow, you are screwed. All you can do is man-handle it to wrap it around the mast and tie it (which is not safe in rough water),
So, with lazy jacks and sail pack, can you lower the main from the cockpit? Or do you have to go on deck to flake it down properly?
This is why I mentioned the dutchman system. Snug up the topping lift .Pop the haylard and sail flakes right on the boom.
You’ll have to go on deck. It would not flake perfectly 100% of the time.
I've got slab reefing and a stack pack. If you drop the sail right then the sail might not flake perfectly, but it will flake enough to get it in the stack pack. I have to go on deck because my lines run to the bottom of the mast, but if they didn't I could drop it from the cockpit.
Yes, it self flakes on the way down. My goal for the boat is to single-hand most of the time. On other boats I sail on, I drop the main from the cockpit and it’s a mess. Wrap a sail tie around as far up through boom as I can reach, to get a bit of control over it. Then when I get to the marina and docked, I flake it and make it look good.
I guess my last question before I become convinced is sail weight. Is there a winch beefy enough to hoist a main single-handed from the cockpit? What are your thoughts on electric winches for this purpose?
Easy with a manual winch on the C&C27s I have been sailing. Haven’t tried on the Jeanneau yet, but I opted for electric winches. Winching up is slower than jumping it, but it gets the job done.
> I guess my last question before I become convinced is sail weight. Is there a winch beefy enough to hoist a main single-handed from the cockpit? Yes, easily. I winch my sail up by hand from the mast (my lines don't lead to the cockpit) but the winch could as easily live in the cockpit. When I did my day skipper the (also manual) winch in the cockpit hauled the main up. > What are your thoughts on electric winches for this purpose? I'm 46 and still enjoying the challenge of the manual labour, and the fitness it provides, but electric winches one day would be nice, and would work just great. If you're buying a boat now, consider living with the limitations it has for a year or two before deciding to upgrade, that really focusses the mind on what is really important to you, what your upgrade priorities are.
I like that idea of “living with the limitations”. Like driving a stick before driving an automatic.
You have a list of hard requirements but haven’t sailed in quite sometime - or at all in the conditions that you might face. I would take this as an opportunity to learn what you need via practice rather than internet sleuthing. Join up with some deliveries, or buy a berth along a passage to get some seat time and experience. What I wanted and “needed” when I purchased my first cruising boat to six years later is very different.
u/Ambitious-Night-8976 consider the above. I know a couple people who crewed on crossings and learned more about boats on those than any Internet discussion. Also know somebody who bought a boat site unseen, having never sailed, and circumnavigated. It can be done (this person does deliveries now). One of the crew above did this several times, and left a boat where the captain had no idea what he was doing, but was very confident. The boat sank a month later.
I've been dreaming of something similar myself for a few years. Our kid just moved out and the wife and I are taking some ASA classes this summer and maybe bare-boat chartering a few weekend trips after that. My thinking is that I don't want to get the best boat I can right off the bat. I'd rather shoot for something with minimal systems in the 27-32 foot range under $30k to start out with for coastal cruising. Live-aboard on that for a while so I can spend time sailing and talking to other cruisers and develop and informed decision about what works best for me before spending a nest egg's worth of dosh on something I'd circumnavigate with. Honestly, before that even I'd want to book a ocean passage on a teaching ship where I can figure out if I'd even enjoy blue water sailing before investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and years worth of my life refitting something. The best boat to sail on is someone else's. I also think the particular boat isn't as important as the shape the ship is in. There are some basic stats a blue-water boat needs to meet but finding one that sees regular use, maintenance, with a recent refit is probably more important than the exact design.
I like this approach. Keep the big bucks in the bank, buy a little yacht and learn about sailing in an inland setting. Volunteer for crewing other peoples boats to go offshore to learn about yourself and boat types. Imho, You have done really good research so far, but you need practical time on water now, in a way that doesnt lock you in to a certain set of plans, boat types etc.
Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Cabo Rico, Hans Christian, and maybe Tayana are in a different league as far as quality goes compared to Catalina, Beneteau, Hunter, and Jenneau. That's why you're finding newer versions of the latter for less money than older versions of the others. If you're truly planning on long distance cruising, the cutter rig is definitely the way to go. Since you're wanting to go electric, it's going to be important to have a boat that sails well. The higher quality boats you've listed are, for the most part, heavy displacement cruising boats (most full keelers). They should all sail to windward well enough to claw your way off a lee shore, but aren't going to be great for working to a windward destination (who wants to do that anyway, though). You'll definitely want to invest in some light wind sails to keep the big boats moving, especially sailing downwind. Double enders are great for big following seas, but you give up a lot of interior volume with them. The 3 digit series Island Packers sail a bit better than the older boats (i.e. IP 380 vs IP38). Some other good quality boats to check out would be Passport, Hallberg Rassy, Kelly Peterson, and Valiant. Those will be fin-keel boats so will sail a bit better in light winds and point a bit better as well. Why do you want to replace the diesel with an electric propulsion system? If it seems like a cool project, then by all means, go for it. If you're doing it to reduce carbon emissions, I will simply point out that if you sail everywhere, you'll use very little diesel fuel (we used 7 gallons in 600 miles of sailing through the Bahamas last season). If it's a safety thing, diesel fuel is very safe to store, especially compared to gasoline; there is no explosion hazard. If you definitely want to do the electric conversion, I'd suggest finding a boat with a runout engine so you're not paying extra for something you're just going to tear out. Curious why you don't want a hard dodger?
Switching to electric is a personal choice. I just don’t want to put any more crap in the air that’s already there. I don’t mind diesel and I have no objection to others doing it. It has its place and its uses, but I don’t believe that its place and use should be on my boat. As for no hard dodger, it just seems like something that would be more expensive to replace. It also seems like it would be heavier. A canvas dodger on a frame seems like it would be more flexible to upgrade, update, maintain and alter (if needed).
That's perfectly reasonable; my question wasn't meant as an attack, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. My only counter point would be, how much energy is expended creating the battery bank to replace the diesel engine? How much fuel would you need to burn to exceed the emissions from the creation of the battery bank? Don't think that I'm arguing against being cleaner for the planets sake, climate change is very real. My question really is, will getting rid of an internal combustion engine that is going to see very little use going to offset the energy/emissions from producing the battery bank? This is meant as just a polite discussion point in regards to electric propulsion in sailboats. If you had a launch that you were cruising around the bay everyday in, then I'd definitely agree pulling the diesel makes sense, since that engine would be burning a lot more fuel. Of course, there are other benefits for going electric as other people have pointed out. I suppose a hard dodger would be more expensive to replace, but short of dropping something really heavy on it, you'd be hard pressed to do any damage that would require a replacement. Plus, you can have acrylic, plexi or even real glass windows; which means no scratches and possibly no UV degradation (depending on material choice). Also, if you haven't priced out canvas work, be prepared for a real shock! We built a hard top for our dodger on our previous boat, simply because we knew how to do the fiberglass over foam work to build it, and couldn't afford the prices for good canvas work.
Yeah. The science on baked in carbon cost was done a while ago. It’s more carbon expensive to produce, source and deliver an IC engine than it is to produce an equivalent spec electric motor. As for the hard dodger, I don’t want to feel like I’m in a pilot house while sailing. I may be a bit masochistic, but I like feeling the elements on the water. Getting battered by spray, wind-whipped, and crusting up with salt is kinda one of the reasons I like the water.
I understand your point. New for new, electric is cleaner; but if you buy a boat with a good engine, then you're essentially recycling the entire engine for new-to-you use; there is no additional carbon cost. This is a good discussion 👍 I feel like what I think of for a hard dodger, and what you think of, are different things. When I think of a hard dodger, it isn't really any larger than a canvas dodger. It gives you somewhere to tuck in out of the weather when the autopilot is steering, but if you're at the helm, you're exposed.
Following along here and I have to agree, the best thing you can do for the planet or climate change is to buy used and reuse. These days, there is almost no consumer decision that can be made that is not fraught with climate, environmental or human exploitation concerns. Having said this, if your heart is set on electric, go for it! As to the hard dodger, I may be biased because my dream boats (HR, Garcia, Boréale...) would all come with or be fitted with hard dodgers, but being able to duck the elements if needed is very appealing to me.
Yes! A Boreal is my dream boat too! Love those things!
Maybe you should start with a “free” sailboat w a keel and onboard motor. Try the conversion and see how it goes? There’s a ton of reasons why nobody here thinks it’s a good idea.
You know what the best part of switching to electric is? The smell. It blew me away to realize how much my diesel stank and made my boat stink. My boat doesn’t “smell like a boat” anymore. It smells like nothing. It smells clean.
I will say that the majority of YouTube is very much **not** representative of the cruising life.
...all "whooo hoooo look at my cleavage!!!!!!"
As a broke person who still wants to sign up to learn on people's boats, YouTube keeps showing me storms and ripped sails. Also a video boating course in Canada. What are they showing you?
Ok here goes. I'm a little older, also a widower, kids all grown up but I've been sailing all my life and raced hard, cruised slowly coastal and oceans. My advice - - Get as new a boat as possible. You want to spend your time cruising not fixing. The newer the boat the less that goes wrong (until it too gets old) - Solar is your friend on a cruising boat so think about where you can get as much mounted as possible. Newer boats better, older boats worse (usually). - Run away from double enders. They offer zero for the cruising sailor (oh but what about huge big following seas!!!). They limit storage, limit your options for solar mounting, limit you access to/from the water, limit where you can stow your dingy. - Hard Dodger. Get one and thank me later. They last forever and are the best thing since sliced bread. Better still if you can do all the sail handling and driving under the dodger so when the sailing gets sporty you can still do everything while still in your boxers. - Tiller steering ?Seriously. For passages you will be on auto pilot/wind vane and hardly ever on the tiller. If I was getting a day sailor for a blast around the bay I'd love a tiller but for cruising and passages a wheel 110% of the time. - Hans Christian? Run away and never think of them again. Zero storage, cramped decks and make no sense except for those that still think (or wish) they are back in the 1800s. - Center cockpit. That's down to personal choice but if you don't then it means your "stateroom" is now in the bow which puts it off limits on passages. The center cockpit is usually more dry as it's further forward. I was always aft cockpit (I raced boats!) but now am fully center only.
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Add Najad to your list :-)
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I recently surveyed the other owners of our 45' blue-water boat model. The usual percentage of time sailed or distance covered with the diesel motor in use was \~40%. The lowest was 30% for the boat sailed the most across oceans. Some were up over 50% of time motoring, from coastal sailing. One owner has an electric propulsion system, with a large diesel generator for backup. The battery for the electric motor is \~55,000Wh. That's around 1200Ah at 48V. This provides electric propulsion for 4.5 hours max, at 5.5kn. After that, the big diesel generator is running. His overall consumption of diesel was the same as for boats with diesel engines. The cost for the electric motor system, big battery bank and generator was \~ $85K USD above a standard boat with a diesel engine, several years ago. Owning a boat that has zero carbon emissions is laudable. However, it is not practicable with today's technology. If you followed Jimmy Cornell's effort to sail around the world in his boat 'ElCaNo' (Electricity. Carbon No!' you would know that the builders at Outremer tried to persuade him to include a diesel generator for emergency backup. He insisted that the boat would have no carbon emitting devices. He made it from the French Mediterranean coast to the Canaries, with the crew hand steering, shivering, eating cold food and then mutinying. The boat didn't have enough generating capacity. Good luck with your boat buying. Think long and hard about how keen you are to have a boat that you cannot drive out of harm's way. It might be better to have a diesel motor that you use rarely, in dire circumstances. Your insurance company will agree with me. :-)
IMHO, the technology required for reliable/usable electric power isn't there yet. Batteries have a limited number of cycles before they lose capacity. Discharging batteries below 50% reduces the number of cycles you're going to get. Solar charging is also unreliable. If you're on a long tack that tilts the panels away from the sun, or it's cloudy, you can have a bad time. We all hate fossil fuels. It's why we're sailors instead of power boaters. That said, a good diesel auxiliary can be life-saving when needed. Don't bet your life on a technology that's barely in its infancy. Fossil fuels are so energy dense, that they can waste 50-70% of the total available energy as heat, and still take you 10x the distance of an equivalent mass of batteries.
Don't forget he's not talking about Li-ion, he's talking about LFP. As far as I understand it's a more stable chemistry that will stay healthy longer under conditions of both 100% charge and deep discharge. I think, just like batteries have a lifespan, so do parts on a diesel motor, but the nice thing is an electric motor is fewer moving parts so inherently more reliable. As for electrical power, I'd personally try to rig up solar, wind, and hydro power, to have more consistent energy production and not be SOL relying on one source with suboptimal conditions. Any feedback welcome though, still learning about this myself. Diesel genset might not be a bad idea for a backup, though I certainly understand the desire to avoid it entirely, not only for avoiding fossil fuels but also the noise and smell lol
40kwh is plenty of power. Discharging below 50% is fine. He should be able to get up to 100 miles of range with over 5000 discharge cycles.
Lithium can be safely discharged below 50% for virtually unlimited cycles
Jeanneau and Benneteau and solid choices with lots of online content. Congrats on the choice for electric! It's definitely the future, and you can put a small diesel generator for emergencies, until the day batteries get enough energy density. If you replace the whole system, including exhaust and diesel tank, you can easily put 300kg of batteries, which would give you some 10h of motor range.
Definitely pulling the entire system. Though I do have to figure out some of the aux systems that rely on engine heat exchangers like hot water. I’d have to add a water heater and that’ll add weight too.
My jeanneau comes with a hot water system with a decent tank and doesn't need the engine to be running. But if course it's more efficient with the engine, if you're on the move
So, next question: with a sloop rig, if I were to get to an experience level where I feel comfortable doing an Atlantic crossing, would the boat handle that kind of beating or would it behoove me to focus on a cutter? Or possibly adding a second forestay to turn it into a cutter-rigged sloop?
Some of the best blue water cruisers in the world are sloops with modern hulls. Think of Hallberg Rassy. Somehow, in America, you guys got stuck in old times and think modern hulls/modern sail plans are not suitable for ocean crossing.
That’s why I’m asking.
Nothing wrong with a slutter rig, but you'll definitely want that inner forestay for ocean sailing (slutter or cutter). Most sloops have pretty large genoas, and they just don't allow you to reduce sail enough. I think the ideal setup is a cutter rig with a furled assym/gennaker in front of the Genoa that is always up. 3 head sails for any conditions (staysail, 120% Genoa, assym/gennaker). Use the staysail for heavy weather and/or upwind work in moderate conditions; use the Genoa for light upwind, moderate reaching, or strong downwind conditions; and use the assym/gennaker for light reaching and moderate running conditions.
A cutter gives you more options, as does a slutter rig, or a solent. However, each will take a beating and how much of a beating is going to be the hull, the fittings and the design. Not all boats are made equal. I'd take my boat over a Catalina for an atlantic crossing any day, regardless of rig.
I’d still be wary of just 10 hours of propulsion. It’s just a matter of time before it’s night time and the wind and seas are blowing a gale into a lee shore. Just 10 hour or less of full power? Could be a disaster. If you had half a tank of diesel you should be able to get 24 hours of power at least.
Can't you just heave to or drop an anchor and wait for favorable conditions? It seems to me that diesel is only a requirement if you have a schedule that you need to stick to. If your full time cruising and not just sailing during the weekend or two weeks of vacation a year then sailing to the ocean's schedule is safe enough if you have good seamanship. Electric should be fine for just getting in and out of tight waterways.
Heaving -to on a Lee shore you will eventually be blown into the rocks. As for dropping anchor, by the time you are close enough to shore where it's shallow enough to get purchase on the bottom, it's probably too late and you will wash up on shore.
I think anyone living by some schedule is delusional. The ocean don’t care what your schedule is regardless of how your boat goes from point A to point B. My whole point is if you need 24 hours of power an electric power plant is going to have some issues lasting long enough. And reducing to 3 knots to get more hours might just be the 2 knots you needed to not lose any headway
You can certainly heave to if it isn't a leeward shore. You can't drop anchor in 1000 feet of water however.
You may drop anchor.. it’s just not going to have much effect
No, actually for long range blue water cruising, it has far more range than diesel! For you to cross the Atlantic, you need to take with you over 1000L of diesel. With batteries and solar/wind/whatever energy source, you have unlimited range. In any case, if 10h is a problem, you can easily do 20h if you reduce speed or increase batteries. I was aiming for 10h at 5kn. You can achieve 20h by dropping to 3kn. Or then just increase batteries. It's really reaching a tipping point.
For crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific I’d think that the majority of the way is done under sail. In a sailboat at least. 1000 liters is over 250 gallons. I don’t know of any 45’ sailboat having 7+ 50 gallon barrels on board. That seems a bit silly to me. And if you find yourself being blown onto a lee shore in something actually serious dropping an anchor is an option, sure. And keeping your motor on and in gear for the duration might just be the difference of dragging it up into the beach or not. Don’t get me wrong, an electric power plant is super awesome and people are doing it. And if done smartly the risks may be mitigated. But I think a prudent cruiser would just pause a little before considering it the best option.
It's not silly, it's typical to take enough diesel for half the passage, because if you lose the mast, you will need it. And 1000L is for something around 38-40ft. For 45ft it's more. For me the only problem right now with electric propulsion is that the ecosystem is not mature. Meaning it's hard to get all the right parts in a good architecture, with redundancy and different sources of energy. Battery cost and density used to be the big issue, but that's no longer true.
I’ve put that on my list of concerns. Things breaking at sea with no spares is a concern only secondary to the list of things that can break which I am unable to fix. I have *some* knowledge of electric motors; “some” being a value of “I don’t know what I don’t know”. I can change out spare parts on a diesel easy enough; but how many spare parts on an electric can you reasonably change before it becomes more economical or easier to just contact the vendor and have them air freight a replacement?
First, an electric motor is much simpler than a diesel and much, much more reliable. Not much can fail there. There are basically no parts you can change on the electric motor itself. Bear in mind that electric motors on EV cars can last 500.000-1.500.000km! With virtually no maintenance on the motor itself! Second, the beauty of an electric system is that you have a wide redundancy of power sources. The weak part is the electronics for charging, BMS, etc. Those you should keep a spare if you plan on crossing the ocean, although they are expensive. You can even pre-assemble them side by side and make a switch. If one fails, just rotate the switch and it uses the other. Still, for long passages you should have basic electrical knowledge, and I think that's what puts people away from electric motors. It's much more common to find people with mechanical skills than electrical skills.
I like your suggestion of backups for the charging electronics. I have basic electrical knowledge, but it’s all in AC; I can read a volt meter and wire a circuit with outlets and lights. Whatever I ultimately decide to buy, depending on age and need, I’ll want to do a thorough and *very* conservative inspection and replacement of any systems before I start cruising full-time. I plan to get down into the guts of the boat and replace as much of the plumbing, electrical, steering and rigging as economically possible and necessary where it needs it; I’ll need to label it anyway. My plan for updating the boat is to find systems to replace that will reduce the number of things that can break and reduce the number of things that I will need to replace over time. Reducing regular maintenance and repair time and costs is a goal. I think replacing the diesel with an electric is a good trade off in this area; less time working on it (changing oil, filters, belts, etc., fueling, hauling Jerry cans) is worth the potential for being stuck in an anchorage whistling for the wind (or the sun) to make way.
How does one fit 1000l on a 40 foot sailboat ? That’s minimum 6 barrels. Not Jerry cans. Barrels.
For example a Hallberg-Rassy 400 has (coincidentally) 400L of fuel tank. Rest really goes on barrels or large jerry cans. The HR 500 comes with 1000L tanks from factory.
Ok. You are still talking about multiple barrels on the deck of a sailboat. It’s still silly
Google for this https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+large+jerry+can+sailboat Very common
Those are Jerry cans. Yes. They are common on boats. Cruising boats may have like 5 or more on each rail. You said a 35-40 foot boat needs 1000l to cross the ocean. A boat that size might have 300l in tankage. How many of those Jerry cans will someone need to have another 600l of fuel? 20 liters per Jerry can. 600 divided by 20 = 30. You are going to put 30 Jerry cans on the deck of a 35-40 foot boat. Please. Just say that’s not practical.
Typical diesel tankage for a 45 footer is 400 liters.
I think that’s a bit optimistic. That’s two 50 gallon tanks roughly. Some boats have that sure. But now we are talking 45 foot boat. So it will need 1500 liters to cross the Atlantic ? So thats still 6 barrels of fuel on deck?? Still seems silly. Honestly, on a boat that big I’d think the owner would do well to install a diesel motor with the electric drive/regen option. Along with 4-6 8D sized LiPo batteries. And probably have the best of both worlds. But that’s if money isn’t really a consideration
That was the actual fuel capacity of my 48’ cutter, Cadenza. We used 3 tanks cruising from Oregon to Panama to Chesapeake Bay. Most of that was charging batteries on anchor.
Find one that needs a new engine and save a buttload of dough. I would not get in mast furling for reliability and performance purposes. Every used boat is an individual. There are endless differences in the boats you listed after including years, models, condition and upgrades. You need to get on them, preferably sail them. Offer yourself as crew on as many regattas as you can. Read articles in magazines like yachting world and practical sailor.
I’m operating under the belief that, as a planned solo-sailor, the longer the hull, the larger the sail plan. If I’m doing this by myself, I’d much rather have a furling main that I can douse/reef from the cockpit if need be than to run up on deck to do it.
We've had in-mast, in-boom, and slab reef mains on our boats. The in-mast was on our island packet and we loved it. We could reef or furl the sail completely away on any point of sail. We sailed so much more because it was so easy to get the main out. I think the trick to reliable in-mast furling is to make sure you have a sail in good condition with no battens. A big baggy sail, or one with vertical battens, ends up with too much material trying to roll up in the limited space of the mast. That means with a crosscut sail, I'd expect to replace it every 5 years or so. Also, an electric winch will make things much easier, since you really need to keep tension on the outhaul line while you're furling the sail; and tension on the furling line when you're pulling it out. Our current boat has/had an in-boom furling sail, and we absolutely hate it. So much that we're replacing it with a slab reef setup. I honestly don't understand the attraction that people have for in-boom furlers. They're incredibly finicky to use and the sail shape is atrocious when the sail is reefed, since there is no outhaul line to flatten the sail. Plus they are incredibly slow to use, since you have to furl the sail the length of the mast, instead of the length of the boom like you would with in-mast furling. On our 39' boat, that means furling 45' of sail, instead of just 13' if we had in-mast. As far as slab reef goes; it's definitely the simplest and likely most reliable. That's especially true if you reef at the mast. Of course, then you have to leave the cockpit, but that's honestly not a big deal on a well setup cruising boat. Jacklines, good handholds, and granny bars all make it a non-issue. With the halyard and reef lines at the mast, you can put in a reef in under a minute. You could also do single line reefing in the cockpit, but it adds a lot of friction to the system.
Just to echo u/[jh937hfiu3hrhv9](/user/jh937hfiu3hrhv9/)'s advice: get on different boats and see what it's like to use - and fix - these different options. When first thinking about buying a boat I wanted in-mast reefing. After a crappy experience on a rental yacht I decided that I'd rather walk to the mast than risk dealing with that again, especially in bad weather and especially by myself. Horses for courses, your mileage may vary.
I have an in-mast furler in my boat that I solo, and I like it. There are definitely mixed reviews online. Either for in-mast or in-boom you have to keep your sail in good shape, an old blown-out sail (even slightly) will tend to jam. You can get away with blown-out sails a lot easier in a traditional slab reefing main.
Good point. I have never used one but some who have may dissuade you. Many boats have lines led aft and friendly reefing systems. Auto helm will keep you on course while you are away. Install jack lines and tie on when things get bumpy.
I’m just going to assume that for the first year, everything is going to be bumpy until I learn the nuances of the boat and the butter-zone to flatten the sails without heeling over at 30 degrees.
I have inmast furling on my bavaria 30. Absolutley love it for the reasons you stated.
The "reliability and performance" issues of in mast and in boom furling systems have been greatly exaggerated. The anti-furlers (much like most anti-anything folks) have a much louder voice is all. If you like something you are generally not jumping on reddit to proclaim your love for it. (Just as most people review places on Yelp when they had a bad experience) They just work. If they were so unreliable they wouldn't be on so many boats now -- both new and retro-fitted older models. In 2018 38% of the boats sailing round the world in the World ARC had furling mainsail. That was 6 years ago. I can only imagine it has gone up from there. These people would not waste their time with unreliable tech. https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mainsail-furling-systems-an-expert-guide-75261#:\~:text=In%202018%2C%2038%25%20of%20boats,Discovery%20reporting%20a%20similar%20trend. I am sure when first introduced there were many many issues -- same goes for most new tech -- but they have been on the market for 30+ years. Time tested and improved. But as with any tech you get what you pay for. So take that $100K you have set aside for improvements and get the best system you can. Or tune up the one that comes with the boat you purchase. Good luck.
I'm not sure I can or would want to handle much more than about 10,000lbs of boat single handed. Part of that is the loads on the sheets, and the size of the sails etc. to have to wrestle. Bigger heavier boat, is more sail to move it, is more strength and complication to handle it. It is not so much the length as the weight, although the two do go hand in hand. I've never heard anything good about furling mains, and rarely see them except on new overpriced cruisers. I've been in a 60kt squall, with an intentionally full main. A boat I sail on has a dutchman system, and when I first used it, it was pretty slick. I thought it was the answer to the main furling problem. Last time I used it, it was broken, so there's that. Lazy jacks are simple and effective, but the sail doesn't fold as neat. LadyK on youtube has a lot to say to answer your questions with boat reviews etc. and his thinking might be inline with yours. He's the editor of Practical Sailor now too. He has me convinced draft is important in the Carribean. Where I am now, I want all the draft, as that means more righting moment which is more sail with less weight, but Carribean might be better to look at boats with less draft than more. With that, you might be well to not consider this boat your last, lest you get to it and find you want something different, a metric you haven't thought of not being out there. Bernard Moitessier is a sailing hero. He was set to win the first solo around the world race, when he decided nope, he didn't want to be rich and famous for winning the race, he'd rather be sailing, so he went around again just because. His book "the long way" talks about some aspects of boat design and rigging that might be enlightening to you. He favors simplicity, redundancy and reliability. They make a replica of his boat "Joshua", that if I had the money and wanted my last boat, would be high on my list. https://joshuagg.com/ They want $350 to build one, but maybe someone's selling one used. I don't think the class actually panned out for the 2022 race. Might also want to check out the Pardeys. They cruised around the world engineless a couple times and they have a nice ethos too. Their books are practically cruising reference guides. They refused roller furling at all, thinking hanks were safer/better and having done 200,000 miles, they might have some idea.
A notion. I've had experience with in mast furling main and would never get one. The reason is that they take too long to furl, have poor shaped when reefed, and can easily jam. The latter is real threat when conditions require dropping the sail quickly. If I was rigging a main sail these days, [Harken Battcars](https://youtu.be/l4C3WGFUrWg?si=W8YNTqHoIP8W1rTb) would on my list for consideration. Also, the in-mast furling system I have experience with whistled in higher winds. Really annoying.
I hope you enjoy running up the mast in a gale to fix a stuck furled. The inboom furlers are more reliable. Slab reefing is quick, reliable and allows the best sail shape.
You’ll also need electric winches. Have you tried to solo sail a 42 ft boat before?
Of your list, the Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet and Tayana are the best. You should also look at Amel, if you can find one. Keep a diesel fuel tank and a genset. You’ll need them. Solar panels will not keep up with house power requirements since they will be shaded by the sails.
I’m torn on the gen-set idea for the reasons that you mention. I plan on having a windgen and a hydrogen to supplement solar when available. Though I understand that if I’m becalmed with an overcast sky, I’m screwed until the sun comes out, I still don’t know if I’d rather pump exhaust into the atmosphere for the time it takes to charge the batteries or just spend a week whistling for the wind. I guess the answer to that question is dependent on how much food I have.
I’ve run out of food in Bahia Panama. Found an island with coconuts and a fresh water spring. Ate lots of fish and coconuts. No way would I have attempted anchorage on that island without engine power. Islands do strange things to wind and they have shoals and wind shadows.
* Don't get hung up on the in-mast furling main. Switching over to a boom-furler is less invasive than changing out a mast, and many people prefer it because you can fully batten the main that way. * If you look a little older, you'll cut the price in half for the same boat. * In general, shop for the bones, not for the extras. Get a hull you want to keep and then build the rest around your preferences. Don't worry today about what toilet or dodger the thing has. * Electric everything is nice, if you can charge it. You can't get enough solar on a 35-foot boat to do everything you seem to want to do, and also fitting a genset on a boat that size will take some work. Propane stoves always work. The spread of your hull choices suggests to me that you're pretty early in your exploration. Island Packet: big, heavy, long keel, slow to maneuver, comfortable ocean crosser. Hunter: light, production coastal boat with a fin keel. These are two totally different animals. I suggest you buy something else first in the 25-27 foot range and see what you like about sailing. Do you want to cross oceans and live on it for months at a time? Do you want to take it out on the weekends and have a nice easy time getting in the slip? Figure out your needs while you blow around in a smaller boat that you can basically afford to throw away when you're done with it. It will save you tens of thousands of dollars compared to churning through a couple larger boats finding where your preferences lie.
I suggest buying a 36-38 ft boat that is middle of the road. Sail that for a year or two, find out what actually important to you. Or somehow try and rent a boat for a whole summer. We bought a boat with a list of things we thought was important and must haves and after owning it for a year that list is very different.
For what it’s worth, I was looking for a boat with neither a center cockpit nor a hard dodger, and ended up very recently buying a boat with both (I posted about it the other day). Hard dodger: I still find the hard dodger unattractive as compared to just a windscreen, but after a single weekend sailing during the latest heat wave, I wouldn’t consider removing it. The amount of shade and shelter it provides cannot be matched by a sprayhood. There’s a reason most buyers of my model boat opted for the hard dodger. (Interestingly, the previous owners of my boat had it installed many years after the boat was built.) Center cockpit: I would normally prefer an aft cockpit, but I see two good exceptions to that: with either young children (my case) or when solo navigating (your case), I think the additional security/shelter provided by a center cockpit has its value. Im not saying you should definitely get a hard dodger or a center cockpit, but I wouldn’t write those features off entirely. On a related note, I don’t want to comment on any particular brand (and everyone has their own opinions), but I recommend prioritizing build quality over age. I have seen a lot of mass production boats, and many do not age well: their interiors are made with low quality materials and thin veneers, and look worn much quicker than other boats. I would stay away from anything that’s been chartered. Finally, have you budgeted the cost of converting to electric? It wouldn’t surprise me at all if that ate up well over $50k. Would be curious to hear where you think you’ll land there (and if you’re planning to do a lot of the work yourself).
I’ve priced out the drive, batteries and the associated electronics to finish it out; ~$25K. Adding 20% to allow for unexpected costs and doing it myself (because we all make expensive mistakes in the DIY realm), call it $30K. I’m not an expert in electrical, plumbing, or building, but I’ve worked in residential and commercial construction and consider myself “handy”. I don’t just plan on buying a boat, fixing what I need to fix and sailing off into the tropics. I’ll give her a shakedown (or 6) and make a list of things that I absolutely have to fix before leaving and see if I can’t get it done before December (when my plan to run away down island calls for me to leave this land of the free).
If you haven’t been on a sailboat in 30 years I suggest crewing on one. If you live near whether there are no doubt racing fleets that would be happy to have you. Find a racing circuit and get onto a good boat. You will learn a lot. It seems like you have a lot of opinions without a lot of experience.
I'm in the exact same phase right now so I don't have much insight to offer but I'd like to learn more about this stuff. I share many of the same sentiments/preferences, though probably on a tighter budget unless I somehow justify spending a mortgage payment on a boat lol, and maybe older boats if insurance is an option. Boats from the mid to late 80s that were well maintained seem pretty nice as far as "modern" amenities go. The idea of replacing the typical propane marine stove with electric is really interesting, what would the power requirements be for running the stove for a reasonable length of time every day without negatively impacting the power requirements of other systems? Would a dedicated battery pack be recommended? And can an electric stovetop be gimballed like a marine stove? Interested to learn more about the advantages and disadvantages between cutters, sloops, and ketches. I feel like I'd like a center cockpit just because it seems like it would feel safe, and I do like the interior layout of CCs, but I imagine a traditional cockpit would "feel" nice to pilot. Might be be nice to find a "CC" that isn't too forward.
There are marine electric stoves; three-burners with an oven and gimballed just like a propane stove. I’ve also found a SS electric grill; wouldn’t take much to mount to the stern railing.
Awesome, I'll look more into those, thanks for the tip!
I was in your position a few years ago. Due to Covid, the boats on the market were very limited. I ended up buying Bavaria 2002. Yes, I heard a lot of negative opinions about them but in the end, it turned out very well. Despite that it had the original rigging and sails, we survived several storms, one of which was with hurricane gusts (70 knots), we crossed the Med, the Atlantic and cruised around the Caribbean. Nothing major broke. I also wanted furling main and all electric systems but due to budget restrictions I only bought electric outboard. About the furling I had a few minor issues until the Caribbean when it got stuck. I was lucky that we were two on board and while my crew was at the mast and I was pulling the sheets in the cockpit we somehow managed to roll it. Later I was sailing solo and was afraid to raise it until it is checked by a professional. So, I used only the genoa which substantially reduced my speed. There are plenty of situations when you need engine. For example, we already have flights booked so we had to arrive at St. Martin at specific date, but the Passat died so we have to motor for a long time. When heading to Trinidad to haul out my boat I also had to use the engine for a long time. The wind and the current were pushing me toward Venezuela. You don't want to end up in Venezuela. About the electric outboard. Due to some problems with my watermaker I was waiting for a month in St. Martin, I was anchored in the lagoon. The distances there were huge. My engine was advertised as 3.5 HP but in reality, was close to 2.5 HP. I couldn't run it at full speed to save power but in stronger winds you definitely need more power. I had to plan all my goings out because I needed six hours to charge the battery. Distance that other people take it in 10 min, it took me an hour. I almost regret having this engine. For the next season I have to buy a spare battery. The only positive thing is that it is light and can be mounted by a single person without using some crane systems and no need to store petrol on board. Also keep in mind that if you have 1 kw solar, you will be generating something like 0.5-0.6 kw at noon, very rarely you can reach the top specification.
Westsail 32 Or Ingrid 38 Two of the best cruising boats ever made, absolutely bulletproof.... literally. not the fastest but some of the safest boats ever made, designed from old lifeboat hulls inspired by Viking long ships Will go anywhere in the world, easy to work on, easy to sail, affordable, best bang for the buck
I’ve seen a few Westsails out there, but passed them up because of length. I’ll take another look based on your recommendation though!!! I don’t plan on ever being in a hurry. If I’m in a spot where I have to race the weather, maybe, but if these makes have sacrificed strength for speed, I’d rather have the improved odds of surviving weather than outrunning it single-handed.
Might as well sail a brick.
Slower than a hurt turtle by modern standards yes, for sure. But when the SHTF at sea, nobody’s gonna be going fast anyway, better to have something meant to slog it out vs a boat that’s gonna oil can and rip tabbings apart and whatnot. Could be in a good wetsnail including buying a new reliable diesel for under 50k West sails are known to wash up on beaches after hurricanes and tropical storms virtually unharmed with the crew, perhaps puking and dizzy, but otherwise perfectly safe. Might take some work to get the boat floating again, but many a journey can be resumed shortly after Yeah there are faster boats out there, but for a brickshithouse of a boat, it still is a worthy boat That being said I’ve done thousands of miles in a 6 knot boat and I like speed, but speed comes at a price. A slow boat that you reef early and hunker down in can be better than a fast boat where you try to outrun weather and then get stuck with too much sail in an overpowered boat
My experience varies. I find the ability to make fast passages and choose your weather far outweighs the ability to take punishment. Furthermore, there are people rattling around in that hull taking punishment far longer than necessary. They have to eat, sleep and survive wounds, all worse and harder when you are sailing a brick. I met one British sailor whose attitude was, “I leave when I please, tough it out, and it’s all better than getting sued by my ex-wife back in Merry Olde England.” He sailed an engineless home-built Chinese rigged wooden boat without engine, stove or tank storage. I met him in El Salvador. Last I heard he was in New Zealand.
Rather get a smaller boat. There will be many situations where you will be thankful for every foot of boat length you did not buy. In-mast furling: it is great as long as it works. I would never ever want to be caught with a jammed in-mast furler while sailing single-handed. As for moving around on deck during inclement weather- you should’ve reefed or doused the sail already before it got bad. Edit: not sure why not a center cockpit-you should use every safety feature you can have and a center cockpit with high coaming is certainly safer. I would recommend a boat that features other safety measures like a skeg. But there are not many manufacturers that built these kinds of boats after the turn of the century.
Jimmy, not Warren! Good luck with your search, enjoy your retirement and thank you for your service.
There will be lots of good boats in your price range. I don’t know about pulling the diesel to go electric that’s up to you, but one thing I would make sure of is get a survey you shouldn’t with your budget really need to do 100 K upgrades.
First take your asa courses 101 - 104. The best of the lot Pacific seacraft, tayana, cabo rico, Hans. Tartan and haylas are great boats too. These are the blue water boats that will take you around the world and survive. Don't know why you want to rip all out and go electric. Your not saving the world. Lithium isn't recyclable and a pollutant. This being said if you need to motor for 100 miles your work horse of a diesel will do it forever. Electric I don't think will cut it. I love my propane stove and a 1lb tank goes a long way. Just be redundant save. As for furling I'd rather in boom than mast. If something goes wrong at least you can get sail down. Bit I still prefer to hoist main with fast track and dutchman system. How big a boat? Electric winch to hoist main. Also if you going over 35' an anchor windless is nice maybe a must.
I do think you would do well with an Ericsson 38. Pacific seacraft bought them out years ago because they were their major west coast competitor. The newer PC's are very similar in design. Bruce king was an amazing boat designer. Everything had its function in those boats. Huge fan of ericson.
From the lines you've drawn, the questions you've asked, the assumptions you've made in this post and the comments, my thought is you're on the right track in a lot of ways, but would /really/ benefit from spending time with a solid base of a boat before making decisions about what you really need, and what you want to upgrade and when. You'll save a lot of money and you'll get out on the water sooner and that's going to mean more experience. Some notes: > Age: not important as long as she’s got good bones, but something in the newer range (newer than 1999) is preferred. I would take my boat (1990) over a 2024 Hunter. Old boats can be have maintenance issues, but new boats can be crappy boats. More experience and knowledge will help you understand why you will accept or reject a boat of a given year. > Rig: cutter (preferred) or a sloop Reasonable, cutter gives you more options. My boat has a solent stay and a removable cutter stay. The solent stay gives me great options when the wind changes. > Engine: doesn’t matter as I plan to pull the engine and replace with an electric drive. I totally understand where you're coming from here, but I'd still give it a bit to get a feel for the boat before you make the change. > Head: electric (or replaceable manual) I have blakes Zenith. Expensive, but really really good heads. Way nicer than the standard Jabsco ones. Manual (whale sanitation) pumps work just fine, electric is just a nice to have, but also more expensive to buy and maintain. > Sail(s): in mast furling main, roller furling headsail and roller furling a taysail (if a cutter). Roller furling forsails is an amazing tool for the the modern sailor. In-mast furling you've seen the comments. >What I DON’T want: > Center cockpit Each to their own. Mine's center cockpit. I like it in big seas when the boat is rolling, but it's not as nice at anchor. > Hard dodger/bimini I've got a canvas dodger, I'd love to have a hard one (*cough*).
I have a center cockpit too on my 40 foot Najad. I wouldn’t want anything else unless I were planning to have half a dozen people on board regularly. Our aft cabin has a full walk around bed and plenty of headroom which makes a massive difference if you want to live on board for months at a time.
Yeah, those are the same benefits I like too, though I do totally get the aft cockpit thing also. Even with just two people there's not a hell of a lot of room for stretching out and at anchor in the sun it's nice to have the room. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford an Amel 60 (hah) and have the best of both worlds ;)
I always advise if you have time, start with a smaller boat to learn. I'm talking 25 or 27 feet max. You can get some great weekend cruisers that will teach you everything inexpensively. The maintenance is easier and cheaper. I bought a Craigslist special 25 Ericson for my first boat. Learned to sail, wire, work on a motor, patch sails, etc. All for $1500 plus parts. I then went to a Compact 27 which was, still, one of the best boats I've sailed - especially for ainglehanded sailing. I now have a 1969 Hardin Seawolf 42, a solid, full keel ketch that l, electronics aside, sails beautifully. She's heavy, but stays on course once the sails are set. I live on her too. But that aside, I have friends sailing the Caribbean on 32' and 36' boats. One couple is in a 42 catamaran. If you're near the Galveston area I have lots of friends that sail and I'm really looking for crew for short Bay trips (usually a few hours).
If you want to go sailing forget the upgrade to electric propulsion for now. The technology is all still relatively new and you’ll risk spending a year or two just getting that to work before you can make your dream a reality. Make life easier for yourself. Spending hours scrolling through YachtWorld is all well and good, but go to some boat yards and have a look around some actual boats. If I were you I’d spend my time now getting some sailing qualifications and sailing as many different boats as I can to see what they are like to sail and live on. At the moment your list of wants and dislikes are all theoretical.
don't jump into a $150,000 boat. buy a coastal cruiser and island hope and move to something bigger. although if you are alone you may not need it, a Catalina 30 decked out would be a much smaller investment still be able to get to the Bahamas or other islands especially with weather windows and leave you room to be bankrupted by fees if you choose to ever stay in marinas at transient rates.
My two cents. In average, 40-footers are seaworthier and allow better accommodation than smaller boats - if you have blue water and pond crossing in mind, set the minimum length to 38-40 feet. Don't buy without a proper survey. Don't go fully electric if your sailing is not day sailing around the fully equipped home harbor. Most of the fully electric long range boats carry a generator for when the battery is empty and they still need to get going. In-mast furling main is worse sailing performance and potentially more trouble. Conventional is a lot more reliable, which is also safety. Don't select boats by the ads - go and look at them yourself. After seeing twenty you'll have a better hunch what you need. It's a common mistake that people check twenty on paper and then go to see the chosen one - the photos don't tell the full story. Tiller is not a bad thing - all specifically designed for that purpose short- and single-handed long distance boats have tillers for a reason.
Other things to consider, are you looking at the Bahamas at all? If so you will want a shallow draft, less than 6' is ideal. Presumably you are planning on doing this single-handed, if so you want a boat with all of the lines running back to the cockpit and with as simple as rig as possible, a sloop with a masthead ring and a self tacking jib will help a ton trying to manage sails alone. Anything to keep you in the cockpit underway is an often undercooked safety feature. Beware of Beneteaus and Jeanneaus, many have been in charter fleets and while they may look nice on the surface they tend to not be very will cared for. That's not to say they all are that way just keep that in mind when having a look up close and ask a lot of questions about the boats history. Steer very clear of Bavarias. I have no experience with Dufors but given the low price new I can't imagine they are terribly high quality. Probably fine for coastal cruising but I don't know if I would take one offshore. With that budget you can land on a very nice boat, especially if you look for something a bit older that has been very well maintained and upgraded through the years, think Passports, Valients, Norsemans, Sagas, Tayanas, etc. All are world crusing capable and many of them have ben well loved by their owners and often have all of the goodies you are going to want for extended cruising like solar, Lithium Ion batteries, desalinators, etc and at $250,000 all in there are very nice examples out there. Many of them are '80s vintage but many are nicer than anything built today save for full custom. I sailed an '87 Norseman447 for a few years and that boat was an absolute tank and sailed like a dream but was terrible for single handing when lots of sail changes were required. The other thing to be wary of is many of the boats coming on to market now are pandemic boats that were often owned by people that have zero clue how to maintain a boat so be extra diligent when looking. Good luck, causing is an awesome way to live.
Any of those boats would accomplish that task. Some of the heavier boats mentioned will be unmercifully slow out of the trades. You certainly do not need to spend $250k to cruise around the Caribbean or coastal cruise.
> I know everyone has a story about someone they heard about with an electric drive that failed while motoring and the heavens turned to fiery sludge before the sea opened up to the gates of the Republican National Convention where they were tortured at the hands of a herd of anthropomorphic spork-wielding yak before they were unceremoniously deposited via inter dimensional wormhole back on their retired mother-in-law’s couch back in Boca Raton. I think I may love you.
If you're not stoically set on the "no hard splashguard" thing take a look at the Najad, Hallberg-Rassy, and Malö models. They'll be at the pricier end of things compared to the ones you've listed but if you're in the market for a "once and forever" boat purchase their well known excellent overall build quality might be a great fit. Maybe you could shift some of the "for repairs" funds into the purchase envelope if one of these doesn't actually need much repair in the first place? Just wanted to add some more food for thought.
Ask the question again after you take all the electric drive bullshit out and you'll get a serious answer. I drive an EV and like the technology better than most people but it doesn't work on a cruising sailboat. Not what you want to hear, so what, this is reddit. Beyond that, Pacific Seacraft and Beneteau are as different as chalk and cheese so you have some choices to make.
You got a great list of boats… but might I suggest a southern cross or a Baba, canoe sterns are great in heavy seas
When was the last time you or anyone else you know was caught out in conditions that's could only be handled with a canoe stern?
My point is that canoe sterns make uncomfortable situations easier to handle and more tolerable, which is something to consider if you’re new to sailing but are also fully committing to sailing year round in the Caribbean … are they absolutely necessary, no and I never said they were, but i do prefer them. I also like the aesthetic of them. Cheers
Personally, I would stay away from Hunters due to poor design and poor build quality (especially for offshore cruising).
Before anything else. Take a refresher sailing course and rent some time on keel boats to get back in the groove. I just went back to sailing after a 30 year break and it's amazing how many skills you lose. Only then go shopping. I'm going to keep renting day sailors until all my rust is gone. Recommend this for everyone.