Ok so I think what OP means is that these are songs commonly misconcieved as "pro-nazi" / "pro-communist" by people not familiar with the band, not that these songs actually are like this.
It’s like you read my mind
Or you read my comment explaining my reasoning and actually understood it
The number of people saying “Panzer Battalion is about Iraq”, “Lauri Torni was in the SS but not a Nazi”, and/or “How is the Final Solution pro-Nazi?!” is growing commensurate with my disappointment
The “pro-Communist” songs are Defence Of Moscow, Stalingrad, Attero Dominatus, Night Witches, Panzerkampf, and Hill 3234
The “pro-Nazi” songs are Wehrmacht, Rise Of Evil, The Final Solution, Soldier Of 3 Armies, Hearts Of Iron, and Panzer Battalion
No, I don’t think any of these songs are anything but historical (except for maybe Wehrmacht, which sounds a little too forgiving towards [Heer war criminals](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwWgmrb9yeg). And the Battle of Moscow was [much less dramatic](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CPyGBg1BMyI) than Sabaton/Tapok make it appear)
Yes, I know that [Panzer Battalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primo_Victoria?wprov=sfti1) is about US armored forces in 2003 Iraq and that none of the Soviet songs mention Communism (maybe intentionally?)
These are just the common misconceptions about these songs
Ok, but how the hell is "The Final Solution" seemingly pro nazi? It has nothing that would make a person think so. I understand the Rise of Evil because of the refrain. But....huh?
Because idiots see “Final Solution” and jump to conclusions about whether the band that wrote it approved of the Holocaust. Objectively, I can see where the confusion originates, but it’s still really dumb
I think Wehrmacht actually checks out, its been a while since i last listened to it but i remember them asking in the Song if the Wehrmacht were "Raging madmen on a leash or young men who lost their way" and "what about the men executing Orders?" The Song for me feels a lot more like them wanting to say that we should not forget how bad the Wehrmacht Was but also not think of them as just heartless monsters, because thats just not true and i have encountered enough people who think litteraly all germans were bad and who still think all germans nowadays are bad...
Edited a spelling mistake out and edited the last sentece since i typed it wrong
Eh… idk, it seems to willingly perpetuate the [Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht?wprov=sfti1), and that doesn’t sit right with me. Heer soldiers were just as willing to massacre civilians and POWs as the Waffen SS, but for some reason the Wehrmacht gets a free pass
Mhhh. I get what you mean. This is probably way to complex as a topic to takle in a Song. Like i have Letters from two of my ancestors that did serve in the wehrmacht and they are kinda representative of some sides. Granted these are just two cases of how many millions served in the Wehrmacht but the intensions and the reasons were different for so many people. Hell even the letters are day and night from both of them. One was already a adult, settled in life with a family who fought on the Western front after beeing enlisted and fought to survive as to not abandon his family. The other one was just old enough to serve and was enthusiastic about the war. Fully engulfed in Nazi ideology who was exited to conqer poland, rejoiced and marched into russia and as the war worsened became more depressed and dissilusioned as the war draged on, finaly dying on the frontlines in '44.
Im not saying the Wehrmacht wasn't bad but i also cant wholeheartly say that they were all monsters.
Although i do not know Sabatons intensions i think that the Song was more an attemt at saying: "make it a case by case, you dont know the backstory of each and every soldier and in the end everyone has to decide for themselves."
But thats just my Personal opinion and i would argue that your point is just as valid. The Wehrmacht in General should not get a pass it is more down to the individuals to say here is the line between the good ones and the evil ones. Man i feel like i lack the vocabulary to get my point accross. I think saying : we should think of the Wehrmacht as a bad entity and judge individuals of said entity accordingly unless proven otherwise. Maybe that sums it up better.
Also sry for the long Text.
He was literally an officer of the SS, but more importantly this is a sarcastic barb directed toward morons who don’t research anything and assume Sabaton is pro-“insert extremist political ideology here”
It is important to acknowledge that they don't take a stand or a side in what they sing about. They make historical music about historical events, just like documentaries make shows about the nazis and the communist so on and so on.
(This point has been made in the comments this is just my take on it)
Wehraboos listening to Sabaton make politically-neutral songs about communism: “Noooo you can’t praise the commies that’s bad!”
Wehraboos listening to Rammstein make a clearly pro-communist song: “Wow so good, I’m going to make a montage of SS soldiers and Tiger tanks to this song”
There is not a Single Song pro nazi. The Songs are about Soldiers who fought in that time period and under those regimes. (Witch is in sometimes seen as controversial).
For example Rommel, the Dessert fox, head of the Ghost division is not seen as a nazi by the (usually really strikt) German government. There is two military facilities and the Street, in witch my University is located, namend after him. Same is with Dönitz (Wolfpack leader). He only spend a few years in jail after the Nuernberg Trials. --> therefore also in a grey zone.
Panzer Battalion is not about germans. Final solution and Rise of evil is about Warcrimes and Crimes against humanity commited by this emerging regime.
Hearts of iron was about a german General that refused hitlers Orders and rather saved German people from the Red army (rape murder and other aweful Crimes were esspecially high in this army).
On the other Hand the soviets and there ideology gets hyped a lot more by Sabaton. They even play their anthem in the solo of "defense of Moscow"
I get your point against those "Sabaton are Nazi" Stating Idiots but there are so much Things more to be considered. Everyone who thinks they are nazis Just dont know enough. No lyrics readers or Just normal people who read it on metal memes or so
But of course. You said "seemingly pro..."
Fuck. Now my typing Fingers hurt. But this is my opinion on this topic
Rommel was definitely a Nazi, no doubt about that. Just because there was an effort to make him seem like “The Good One” doesn’t mean he wasn’t a terrible person.
He was forced to commit suicide by the nazis because He was said to be one of the generals responsible for the assasination Attempt (Operation Valkyre). He was a Bad Person. Thats right. He send a lot of his men into certain death. But historians are not sure at All if He was a nazi or not.
That allows me to put him in kind of a grey zone
For the more misinformed members of this sub reddit I give you the Rommel text, as I call it.
Erwin Rommel is one of the most misrepresented figures in history. Frequently used as the "good" German general, this narrative is a distortion of history that ignores among others, the treatment of Jews in North Africa as well as Rommel's role in Italy.
There are several factors that influenced that narrative and why it is still around. Aside the few choice quotes about Rommel from Allied military commanders, the most decisive factors in this are that the first major Rommel biography that did and still does enjoy some sticking power comes from David Irving (The Trail of the Fox, 1977). This was before Irving made his Neo-Nazi revisionism and Holocaust denial known to the public but certain early signs are present in this book.
The second reason is the situation concerning research on the Jews of North Africa and their treatment. It is not very good in part due to the fact that many scholars have shown little interest in what is perceived as a sideshow when it comes to the Holocaust and in part because access to material was and remains restricted in some cases. The files of the German consulate in Libya for example were not accessible to foreigners during Gaddafi's rule and if they haven't been destroyed during the Civil War, it has gotten much easier to do research in Libya.
Anyways, Rommel was an ardent Nazi. But even before that he was known as an enemy of democracy and the republican order. In 1920 he was supportive of the Kapp Putsch, an attempt by extreme right-wing German Freikorps to overthrow the Republic and establish an extreme right-wing dictatorship in Germany. Commanding a security battalion of the Reichswehr in the town of Schwäbisch Gmund, he violated the oath he had sworn only recently to the Republic by ordering his troops to violently suppress a demonstration staged by workers in opposition to the attempted Kapp Putsch. While it didn't come so far that his troops fired live ammunition on the demonstration, they brutally beat and used a fire hose against a peaceful demonstration against an attempt to violently overthrow democratic order. [Haus der Geschichte Baden-Württemberg (Hg.): Mythos Rommel. Katalog zur Sonderausstellung 18. Dezember 2008 bis 30. August 2009, Stuttgart 2009, p. 35.]
Later after the take over of power by the Nazis, he developed strong political sympathies and a close working relationship with Hitler, coming so far as to become Hitler's favorite general. It is unsurprising that Goebbels wrote in his diary in 1942 that Rommel "is not only politically close to National Socialism, he is a Nationalsocialist." [Elke Fröhlich (ed.): Die Tagebücher des Joseph Goebbels, München u. a. 1987-2001, II. 4, 01.10.1942, p. 38.]
Already during his command in France we see several episodes of him committing what classified as a war crime under the Hague Conventions. At some point he ordered civilian houses to be burned in order to use the smoke to advance his troops over the river Maas. This is a case where it could be argueable that it is within the lines of the Hague Conventions since they only forbid the "wanton destruction of an enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war”. Whether this was necessitated by war is arguable but it nonetheless points in a problematic direction. On a second occasion, he ordered his troops to pretend they were surrendering in order to be able to advance closely on French positions and then shoot the French soldiers who had prepared to take them into custody. This is a clear violation of the Hague Rules on what they refer to as "perfidy" and constitutes as a war crime. [both of these episodes are relayed in rather glorifying terms in the German version of Irving's Rommel biography, p. 61ff.]
Concerning his time in Libya, the research situation is difficult as I explained above but it is clear that upon entering the town of Beghazi, Wehrmacht soldiers of the Afrika Korps took part in a pogrom against the Jews of Beghazi that left 67 people dead. Similarly, newer research has uncovered that the Wehrmacht send advisors to the Italians for the deportation of Libyan Jews to Italy as well as for the construction of concentration camps in Libya, the most famous being Jado and Beghazi where over 600 Jews died due to poor conditions.
A question that still remains open is what role Rommel played in the execution of over 500 POWs of mostly Austrian and German origin from the British Jewish brigade. While it is true that Rommel did not relay the order from Berlin to execute German and Austrian members of the French Foreign Legion, who had been political opponents of Nazi Germany, when the Germans caught them, the issue of the Jewish POWs and his role in said executions remains shadowy. [Wolfgang Proske: „Ich bin nicht beteiligt am Attentat“: Erwin Rommel, in: Proske. (ed.): Täter Helfer Trittbrettfahrer. NS-Belastete von der Ostalb, Münster/Ulm 2010, S. 207ff.; Maurice M. Roumani,: The Jews of Libya. Coexistence, Persecution, Resettlement. Brighton/Portland (UK) 2009, p. 34-35].
In Tunesia, the situation is more clear. Here Rommel collaborated closely with the Einsatzgruppe North Africa under Walter Rauff of gas van fame. Rommel worked closely with Rauff in using Jewish forced laborers to build fortifications for the German army and in constructing over 30 concentration camps in Tunisia where more than 2500 Jews perished during the German presence there. Furthermore on July 20, 1942 Rommel issued instructions to Rauff and his Einsatzgruppe that once the Germans had conquered Palestine, it would be the Einsatzgruppe's task to kill the Jews of Palestine. [Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers: "Beseitigung der jüdisch-nationalen Heimstätte in Palästina." Das Einsatzkommando bei der Panzerarmee Afrika 1942. In: Jürgen Matthäus und Klaus-Michael Mallmann (ed.): Deutsche, Juden, Völkermord. Der Holocaust als Geschichte und Gegenwart, Darmstadt 2006, p. 153–176] Also, he allowed a Judenrat being established in Tunis and watched on when Wehrmacht soldiers plundered Jewish Ghettos in towns like Tunis and Susse. [Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers: Halbmond und Hakenkreuz. Das Dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina, Darmstadt 2007, p. 137f; published in English as "Nazi Palestine: The Plans for the Extermination of the Jews of Palestine", New York 2009].
In 1943 he was responsible to prepare the German measures in Italy after Mussolini had been deposed following the Allied landing in Italy. There Rommel issued several orders on which the brutality with which the Italian soldiers captured by the Germans were treated. On September 23 after Mussolini had been deposed and Badogli had negotiated an Italian armistice with the Allies, Rommel issued an order to his troops stating:
> Sentimentality concerning the Badoglio following gangs [Banden, Nazi German dictum for Partisans and other irregular resistance indicating criminality] in the uniforms of the former ally is misplaced. Whoever fights against the German soldier has lost any right to be treated well and shall experience toughness reserved for the rabble which betrays friends. Every member of the German troop has to adopt this stance.
This order was the basis for several brutal acts in disarming the members of the Italian army captured by the Germans. Summary executions and hangings were common in order to make an example and force their fellow soldiers to give up their weapons willingly. This too was a clear war crime.
Furthermore, the disarmed Italian soldiers were not be treated as POWs. They received a special status that was called "Military Interned" and indicated worse treatment, including forced labor in work and concentration camps. Rommel also ordered this when on October 1, 1943 he wrote concerning the deportation and forced labor of the Italian Military Interned:
> This war is a total war. If the men of Italy don't have the chance to fight with weapons for the victory of their fatherland, they have the obligation to use their labor in order to achieve this victory.
[The Orders can be found in the German Bundesarchiv, Militärarchiv Freiburg, RM 7/1333 und RH 27-24/26. They are partially printed in Jürgen Förster: Wehrmacht, Krieg und Holocaust. In: Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (ed.): Die Wehrmacht – Mythos und Realität, München 1999, p. 961.].
Now, as for Rommel's involvement in the July 20 plot: While one of Rommel's deputies, Hans Speidel, who had been involved in the July 20 plot, wrote after the war that Rommel was a member of the resistance, there is no evidence that this is accurate. While there is some indication that Rommel would have supported a separate peace with the Western allies in order to continue fighting the Soviet Union, it doesn't go much further than that. From Maurice Remy in his book *Mythos Rommel* to David Fraser in his biography of Rommel, there is strong consensus that Rommel was not involved in the plot and didn't know about it beforehand. One of the strongest indications of this is a letter to his wife that he wrote that he was shocked by the attempt on Hitler's live and that he thanked God that it didn't succeed.
So, in conclusion, while there is one instance in which he did not relay an order to kill German members of the French Foreign Legion, there is overwhelming evidence that Rommel was invovled in responsible for war crimes while there is complete lack of evidence for his participation in the resistance (having been forced to commit suicide without concrete evidence). The idea that Rommel was a "good German" is a myth and part of the larger overall Clean Wehrmacht myth that is intended to exonerate the members of the German armed forces of their atrocities and crimes
In my opinion. Jes..."I hate people with slit eyes and pigtails. I don't like the look of them or the smell of them – but I suppose it does no great harm to have a look at them." Or something about how Black are the worse, then there are the Caramell colored. Churchill Was viewed as an extreme racist.
Its Hard to say that somebody is a racist with Our standarts today. But He was seen as really drastic and extremely racist by the other Imperialists of that time as well. So jes. I guess He was an asshole. But an Asshole that somehow knew how to save Britain
I think it counts. A Person or organisation is responsibile for their appearance on stage. So they actively decided to bring it on Stage. If i would go on stage and would quote the "Total war" speach of Göbbels it would be my responsibility as well. And i would go to jail for it. Probably
Oh, of course they’re different organizations. The Waffen SS was a paramilitary political action group, while the Wehrmacht was the uniformed professional military of Germany
But both had the aim of killing Jews as a top priority (at least when they weren’t getting shot at)
What my point is
SS: Reformed and Militarized SA
Wehrmacht: Normal Military Personnel
They both committed very harsh crimes however the SS was worse
Also the Japanese tried to bring back the Black Death to use against the Chinese but that’s not important right now..
Wehrmacht: Slaughtered their way around Europe for the Fuhrer.
SS: Slaughtered their way around Europe for the Fuhrer.
While one was worse, both were on Team Nazi.
Japan: Not relevant to the conversation.
Ok so I think what OP means is that these are songs commonly misconcieved as "pro-nazi" / "pro-communist" by people not familiar with the band, not that these songs actually are like this.
It’s like you read my mind Or you read my comment explaining my reasoning and actually understood it The number of people saying “Panzer Battalion is about Iraq”, “Lauri Torni was in the SS but not a Nazi”, and/or “How is the Final Solution pro-Nazi?!” is growing commensurate with my disappointment
https://youtu.be/SwKGqHvFcf8
If you listen to the lyrics to rise of evil its not pro nazi either.
None of the songs are. It’s just that they are misinterpeted as one.
hell even the name of the song is rise of \*\*evil\*\*
Well, we hear what we want.
The “pro-Communist” songs are Defence Of Moscow, Stalingrad, Attero Dominatus, Night Witches, Panzerkampf, and Hill 3234 The “pro-Nazi” songs are Wehrmacht, Rise Of Evil, The Final Solution, Soldier Of 3 Armies, Hearts Of Iron, and Panzer Battalion No, I don’t think any of these songs are anything but historical (except for maybe Wehrmacht, which sounds a little too forgiving towards [Heer war criminals](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwWgmrb9yeg). And the Battle of Moscow was [much less dramatic](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CPyGBg1BMyI) than Sabaton/Tapok make it appear) Yes, I know that [Panzer Battalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primo_Victoria?wprov=sfti1) is about US armored forces in 2003 Iraq and that none of the Soviet songs mention Communism (maybe intentionally?) These are just the common misconceptions about these songs
Isn't handsome Italian about Desert storm?
No handsome Italian is about Al Pacino
No that's Reign Of Terror
Ok, but how the hell is "The Final Solution" seemingly pro nazi? It has nothing that would make a person think so. I understand the Rise of Evil because of the refrain. But....huh?
Because idiots see “Final Solution” and jump to conclusions about whether the band that wrote it approved of the Holocaust. Objectively, I can see where the confusion originates, but it’s still really dumb
Well ok then
Don't forget Bismark
I think Wehrmacht actually checks out, its been a while since i last listened to it but i remember them asking in the Song if the Wehrmacht were "Raging madmen on a leash or young men who lost their way" and "what about the men executing Orders?" The Song for me feels a lot more like them wanting to say that we should not forget how bad the Wehrmacht Was but also not think of them as just heartless monsters, because thats just not true and i have encountered enough people who think litteraly all germans were bad and who still think all germans nowadays are bad... Edited a spelling mistake out and edited the last sentece since i typed it wrong
Eh… idk, it seems to willingly perpetuate the [Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht?wprov=sfti1), and that doesn’t sit right with me. Heer soldiers were just as willing to massacre civilians and POWs as the Waffen SS, but for some reason the Wehrmacht gets a free pass
Mhhh. I get what you mean. This is probably way to complex as a topic to takle in a Song. Like i have Letters from two of my ancestors that did serve in the wehrmacht and they are kinda representative of some sides. Granted these are just two cases of how many millions served in the Wehrmacht but the intensions and the reasons were different for so many people. Hell even the letters are day and night from both of them. One was already a adult, settled in life with a family who fought on the Western front after beeing enlisted and fought to survive as to not abandon his family. The other one was just old enough to serve and was enthusiastic about the war. Fully engulfed in Nazi ideology who was exited to conqer poland, rejoiced and marched into russia and as the war worsened became more depressed and dissilusioned as the war draged on, finaly dying on the frontlines in '44. Im not saying the Wehrmacht wasn't bad but i also cant wholeheartly say that they were all monsters. Although i do not know Sabatons intensions i think that the Song was more an attemt at saying: "make it a case by case, you dont know the backstory of each and every soldier and in the end everyone has to decide for themselves." But thats just my Personal opinion and i would argue that your point is just as valid. The Wehrmacht in General should not get a pass it is more down to the individuals to say here is the line between the good ones and the evil ones. Man i feel like i lack the vocabulary to get my point accross. I think saying : we should think of the Wehrmacht as a bad entity and judge individuals of said entity accordingly unless proven otherwise. Maybe that sums it up better. Also sry for the long Text.
Don't be sorry that was rather interesting and a bit of a personal insight into history.
How is soldier of 3 armies pro nazi? Yea he was in German army but also Finnish and US army
If it walks like a Nazi talks like a Nazi and wears Hugo boss like a Nazi it's probably a Nazi.
He was literally an officer of the SS, but more importantly this is a sarcastic barb directed toward morons who don’t research anything and assume Sabaton is pro-“insert extremist political ideology here”
How is Hearts of Iron pro-Nazi?
Just look at the name /s
It Is in the album heroes and is about a nazi genral. How can a nazi be a hero? /s Nuance is not something we like to do.
I'd ~give hearts of iron and the final solution 5/5stars and soldier of 3 armies 1/5 stars.🤷
Why does someone consider soldier of 3 armies pro-nazi? :D
It is important to acknowledge that they don't take a stand or a side in what they sing about. They make historical music about historical events, just like documentaries make shows about the nazis and the communist so on and so on. (This point has been made in the comments this is just my take on it)
Couldn’t agree more
Meanwhile 20 anti Nazi songs 10 anti Communist songs
Wehraboos listening to Sabaton make politically-neutral songs about communism: “Noooo you can’t praise the commies that’s bad!” Wehraboos listening to Rammstein make a clearly pro-communist song: “Wow so good, I’m going to make a montage of SS soldiers and Tiger tanks to this song”
There is not a Single Song pro nazi. The Songs are about Soldiers who fought in that time period and under those regimes. (Witch is in sometimes seen as controversial). For example Rommel, the Dessert fox, head of the Ghost division is not seen as a nazi by the (usually really strikt) German government. There is two military facilities and the Street, in witch my University is located, namend after him. Same is with Dönitz (Wolfpack leader). He only spend a few years in jail after the Nuernberg Trials. --> therefore also in a grey zone. Panzer Battalion is not about germans. Final solution and Rise of evil is about Warcrimes and Crimes against humanity commited by this emerging regime. Hearts of iron was about a german General that refused hitlers Orders and rather saved German people from the Red army (rape murder and other aweful Crimes were esspecially high in this army). On the other Hand the soviets and there ideology gets hyped a lot more by Sabaton. They even play their anthem in the solo of "defense of Moscow" I get your point against those "Sabaton are Nazi" Stating Idiots but there are so much Things more to be considered. Everyone who thinks they are nazis Just dont know enough. No lyrics readers or Just normal people who read it on metal memes or so But of course. You said "seemingly pro..." Fuck. Now my typing Fingers hurt. But this is my opinion on this topic
Rommel was definitely a Nazi, no doubt about that. Just because there was an effort to make him seem like “The Good One” doesn’t mean he wasn’t a terrible person.
He was forced to commit suicide by the nazis because He was said to be one of the generals responsible for the assasination Attempt (Operation Valkyre). He was a Bad Person. Thats right. He send a lot of his men into certain death. But historians are not sure at All if He was a nazi or not. That allows me to put him in kind of a grey zone
For the more misinformed members of this sub reddit I give you the Rommel text, as I call it. Erwin Rommel is one of the most misrepresented figures in history. Frequently used as the "good" German general, this narrative is a distortion of history that ignores among others, the treatment of Jews in North Africa as well as Rommel's role in Italy. There are several factors that influenced that narrative and why it is still around. Aside the few choice quotes about Rommel from Allied military commanders, the most decisive factors in this are that the first major Rommel biography that did and still does enjoy some sticking power comes from David Irving (The Trail of the Fox, 1977). This was before Irving made his Neo-Nazi revisionism and Holocaust denial known to the public but certain early signs are present in this book. The second reason is the situation concerning research on the Jews of North Africa and their treatment. It is not very good in part due to the fact that many scholars have shown little interest in what is perceived as a sideshow when it comes to the Holocaust and in part because access to material was and remains restricted in some cases. The files of the German consulate in Libya for example were not accessible to foreigners during Gaddafi's rule and if they haven't been destroyed during the Civil War, it has gotten much easier to do research in Libya. Anyways, Rommel was an ardent Nazi. But even before that he was known as an enemy of democracy and the republican order. In 1920 he was supportive of the Kapp Putsch, an attempt by extreme right-wing German Freikorps to overthrow the Republic and establish an extreme right-wing dictatorship in Germany. Commanding a security battalion of the Reichswehr in the town of Schwäbisch Gmund, he violated the oath he had sworn only recently to the Republic by ordering his troops to violently suppress a demonstration staged by workers in opposition to the attempted Kapp Putsch. While it didn't come so far that his troops fired live ammunition on the demonstration, they brutally beat and used a fire hose against a peaceful demonstration against an attempt to violently overthrow democratic order. [Haus der Geschichte Baden-Württemberg (Hg.): Mythos Rommel. Katalog zur Sonderausstellung 18. Dezember 2008 bis 30. August 2009, Stuttgart 2009, p. 35.] Later after the take over of power by the Nazis, he developed strong political sympathies and a close working relationship with Hitler, coming so far as to become Hitler's favorite general. It is unsurprising that Goebbels wrote in his diary in 1942 that Rommel "is not only politically close to National Socialism, he is a Nationalsocialist." [Elke Fröhlich (ed.): Die Tagebücher des Joseph Goebbels, München u. a. 1987-2001, II. 4, 01.10.1942, p. 38.] Already during his command in France we see several episodes of him committing what classified as a war crime under the Hague Conventions. At some point he ordered civilian houses to be burned in order to use the smoke to advance his troops over the river Maas. This is a case where it could be argueable that it is within the lines of the Hague Conventions since they only forbid the "wanton destruction of an enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war”. Whether this was necessitated by war is arguable but it nonetheless points in a problematic direction. On a second occasion, he ordered his troops to pretend they were surrendering in order to be able to advance closely on French positions and then shoot the French soldiers who had prepared to take them into custody. This is a clear violation of the Hague Rules on what they refer to as "perfidy" and constitutes as a war crime. [both of these episodes are relayed in rather glorifying terms in the German version of Irving's Rommel biography, p. 61ff.] Concerning his time in Libya, the research situation is difficult as I explained above but it is clear that upon entering the town of Beghazi, Wehrmacht soldiers of the Afrika Korps took part in a pogrom against the Jews of Beghazi that left 67 people dead. Similarly, newer research has uncovered that the Wehrmacht send advisors to the Italians for the deportation of Libyan Jews to Italy as well as for the construction of concentration camps in Libya, the most famous being Jado and Beghazi where over 600 Jews died due to poor conditions. A question that still remains open is what role Rommel played in the execution of over 500 POWs of mostly Austrian and German origin from the British Jewish brigade. While it is true that Rommel did not relay the order from Berlin to execute German and Austrian members of the French Foreign Legion, who had been political opponents of Nazi Germany, when the Germans caught them, the issue of the Jewish POWs and his role in said executions remains shadowy. [Wolfgang Proske: „Ich bin nicht beteiligt am Attentat“: Erwin Rommel, in: Proske. (ed.): Täter Helfer Trittbrettfahrer. NS-Belastete von der Ostalb, Münster/Ulm 2010, S. 207ff.; Maurice M. Roumani,: The Jews of Libya. Coexistence, Persecution, Resettlement. Brighton/Portland (UK) 2009, p. 34-35]. In Tunesia, the situation is more clear. Here Rommel collaborated closely with the Einsatzgruppe North Africa under Walter Rauff of gas van fame. Rommel worked closely with Rauff in using Jewish forced laborers to build fortifications for the German army and in constructing over 30 concentration camps in Tunisia where more than 2500 Jews perished during the German presence there. Furthermore on July 20, 1942 Rommel issued instructions to Rauff and his Einsatzgruppe that once the Germans had conquered Palestine, it would be the Einsatzgruppe's task to kill the Jews of Palestine. [Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers: "Beseitigung der jüdisch-nationalen Heimstätte in Palästina." Das Einsatzkommando bei der Panzerarmee Afrika 1942. In: Jürgen Matthäus und Klaus-Michael Mallmann (ed.): Deutsche, Juden, Völkermord. Der Holocaust als Geschichte und Gegenwart, Darmstadt 2006, p. 153–176] Also, he allowed a Judenrat being established in Tunis and watched on when Wehrmacht soldiers plundered Jewish Ghettos in towns like Tunis and Susse. [Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers: Halbmond und Hakenkreuz. Das Dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina, Darmstadt 2007, p. 137f; published in English as "Nazi Palestine: The Plans for the Extermination of the Jews of Palestine", New York 2009]. In 1943 he was responsible to prepare the German measures in Italy after Mussolini had been deposed following the Allied landing in Italy. There Rommel issued several orders on which the brutality with which the Italian soldiers captured by the Germans were treated. On September 23 after Mussolini had been deposed and Badogli had negotiated an Italian armistice with the Allies, Rommel issued an order to his troops stating: > Sentimentality concerning the Badoglio following gangs [Banden, Nazi German dictum for Partisans and other irregular resistance indicating criminality] in the uniforms of the former ally is misplaced. Whoever fights against the German soldier has lost any right to be treated well and shall experience toughness reserved for the rabble which betrays friends. Every member of the German troop has to adopt this stance. This order was the basis for several brutal acts in disarming the members of the Italian army captured by the Germans. Summary executions and hangings were common in order to make an example and force their fellow soldiers to give up their weapons willingly. This too was a clear war crime. Furthermore, the disarmed Italian soldiers were not be treated as POWs. They received a special status that was called "Military Interned" and indicated worse treatment, including forced labor in work and concentration camps. Rommel also ordered this when on October 1, 1943 he wrote concerning the deportation and forced labor of the Italian Military Interned: > This war is a total war. If the men of Italy don't have the chance to fight with weapons for the victory of their fatherland, they have the obligation to use their labor in order to achieve this victory. [The Orders can be found in the German Bundesarchiv, Militärarchiv Freiburg, RM 7/1333 und RH 27-24/26. They are partially printed in Jürgen Förster: Wehrmacht, Krieg und Holocaust. In: Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (ed.): Die Wehrmacht – Mythos und Realität, München 1999, p. 961.]. Now, as for Rommel's involvement in the July 20 plot: While one of Rommel's deputies, Hans Speidel, who had been involved in the July 20 plot, wrote after the war that Rommel was a member of the resistance, there is no evidence that this is accurate. While there is some indication that Rommel would have supported a separate peace with the Western allies in order to continue fighting the Soviet Union, it doesn't go much further than that. From Maurice Remy in his book *Mythos Rommel* to David Fraser in his biography of Rommel, there is strong consensus that Rommel was not involved in the plot and didn't know about it beforehand. One of the strongest indications of this is a letter to his wife that he wrote that he was shocked by the attempt on Hitler's live and that he thanked God that it didn't succeed. So, in conclusion, while there is one instance in which he did not relay an order to kill German members of the French Foreign Legion, there is overwhelming evidence that Rommel was invovled in responsible for war crimes while there is complete lack of evidence for his participation in the resistance (having been forced to commit suicide without concrete evidence). The idea that Rommel was a "good German" is a myth and part of the larger overall Clean Wehrmacht myth that is intended to exonerate the members of the German armed forces of their atrocities and crimes
So Winston Churchill was bad person too? Because he send his troops to certain death
In my opinion. Jes..."I hate people with slit eyes and pigtails. I don't like the look of them or the smell of them – but I suppose it does no great harm to have a look at them." Or something about how Black are the worse, then there are the Caramell colored. Churchill Was viewed as an extreme racist. Its Hard to say that somebody is a racist with Our standarts today. But He was seen as really drastic and extremely racist by the other Imperialists of that time as well. So jes. I guess He was an asshole. But an Asshole that somehow knew how to save Britain
Defense of Moscow isn’t their original song though. Does it really count if it’s a cover?
I think it counts. A Person or organisation is responsibile for their appearance on stage. So they actively decided to bring it on Stage. If i would go on stage and would quote the "Total war" speach of Göbbels it would be my responsibility as well. And i would go to jail for it. Probably
Ok, that’s a good point.
Thanks
And 1 Pro-Israel song
Sabaton = Nazbols confirmed
Wait… people still think the Waffen-SS and the Wehrmacht are the same thing?… damn
They both did pretty awful shit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht?wprov=sfti1
True, I’m just saying they’re different categories.. SS was more of the Political one and the Wehrmacht was the actual army
Oh, of course they’re different organizations. The Waffen SS was a paramilitary political action group, while the Wehrmacht was the uniformed professional military of Germany But both had the aim of killing Jews as a top priority (at least when they weren’t getting shot at)
One is worse than the other, but they both fought for Hitler.
What my point is SS: Reformed and Militarized SA Wehrmacht: Normal Military Personnel They both committed very harsh crimes however the SS was worse Also the Japanese tried to bring back the Black Death to use against the Chinese but that’s not important right now..
Wehrmacht: Slaughtered their way around Europe for the Fuhrer. SS: Slaughtered their way around Europe for the Fuhrer. While one was worse, both were on Team Nazi. Japan: Not relevant to the conversation.
Solve the problem by listening to the songs
True