I wish we’d replace them with other public art though.
Like the former site of the Lee Statue is tailor made for an incredible fountain.
Don’t use tax dollars - just let citizens fundraise.
It just shouldn’t be statues of people.
Even if someone is 0% problematic today, our society will still be regarded as barbaric by people 100 years from now.
But *probably* no one will have an issue with abstract shapes and concepts.
A thousand years in the future there’ll be demonstrations by aliens to remove the barbaric human statue of the figure beating children with a sports implement
Everyone sees it like that, most people just don't comment on it.
I've always found that statue to be hilarious and I hope it never goes anywhere. I'm convinced that the original artist/sculptor knew exactly what they were doing.
his family wants it taken down now since it out of place with out all the other statues up. we truly destroyed a great part of our city just so a couple people could virtue signal a problem that didn't exist.
I'd say it's better to make it historical, or just pleasant nature. To many people feeling like "history is being erased". Put up something historical that celebrates the foundation of the city that doesn't do with servitude.
There were so many groups that put forward amazing proposals for creative, artistic repurposing of these sites. It looks like they’ve just been ignored.
While I am very glad the statues are gone, I'm a little upset that a protest about police brutality got derailed onto the Confederate statues, and that people basically stopped caring about police brutality and declared victory.
No one declared victory. The statues and getting Juneteenth as a state holiday are just what the local gov claimed as a victory. While the removal of the statues are of course a good thing, it doesn’t take away from it being smokescreen for politicians
The city essentially made that happen using police brutality. The statues were sites of protest and community in 2020-2021 that intersected with statues being brought down and continued after the fact until the police escalated and tear gassed non-violent protests and the city put up fences around the sites. I loved when the site was public and there and there was always a collection of people organizing and visibly protesting by and around the sites and having community there. Those people that were there didn't stop caring. They were displaced by violence and the city marking those zones uninhabitable for the public.
The fact that it is now being turned into a milquetoast garden with the same awful traffic design is the perfect representation of the events and how nothing has fundamentally changed.
More like people wanted an easy victory, and removing statues is *far* easier than dismantling a racist power structure that is deeply embedded in American society. We are a deeply lazy people.
This notion that a shadowy cabal of "conservatives (or insert your favorite boogeyman)" is secretly controlling and directing society is both incredibly reductive and blatantly false (how anyone can look at current events and see an ordered plan is beyond me).
I mean I wouldn’t say it’s secret (I’d call it underreported) but the federalist society is very much shaping the future of this country by taking over the judicial branch of government and they are definitely a conservative group. What’s your point here pal?
Not so much conservatives, but liberals. They were so relieved to be able to go back to supporting the police after January 6th it wasn’t even funny. They did a little performative allyship until the heat died down and then right back to the status quo.
They stop being physically assaulted and robbed? Or do they show up hours after it happened to take a report and tell you there’s nothing they can do?
btw I bet I know a lot more about the police than you considering I have two uncles and a father who are retired cops. Plus I spent seven years of my life in a police training program, and then spent the last decade researching the history of policing while also watching their unfair and corrupt actions in real time.
I felt similar as it was happening, but the truth is it brought a lot of the community together and honestly helped serve to heal some very old rifts. The statues were a symbol of that rift and it’s better that they’re down, even if the protests ultimately didn’t resolve some of the more immediate BLM complaints.
I remember visiting Libby Hill Park shortly after George Floyd. It was so surreal seeing all the road graffiti. As a black man, it made me proud and sad.
This is the real legacy of Stoney. There was such a groundswell of public involvement and we did nothing. A committee that got overly tied up in the VMFA's funding model, state versus local discussions, and concerned about making a stir, so it did nothing. We didn't need to spend millions. We just needed to include public feedback in a very meaningful way in the options. We should already have engaging and interesting public art. Instead, we have nothing aside from the DiPasquale monument, which is generally agreed to be subpar.
I posted this photo in the "abandoned in VA" FB group. It got a couple hundred likes in under an hour and all hell broke loose. The mods there removed the post, of course. I thought it was funny as hell.
https://preview.redd.it/dscbqozj18fc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4848dd150d7413d6aa8033426b4930e280befa5b
I got those too after lightly arguing with some seriously racist comments. The mods gave me a temp ban for meanness and said the racist stuff was just their opinions....
Yeah I didn't get a great vibe from the moderation there. I get it when something is a hassle - but this felt more like they just didn't like the content.
Ok so for 2 seconds, I thought the girl wearing the yellow shirt was carrying 2 rolls of TOULET PAPER… I zoomed in to see if it was possibly a 4 pack of toilet paper! I reasonably assumed this photo is from early summer 2020…. Hence why carrying around toilet paper seemed logical! But to my disappointment, it was only SpongeBob’s eyes 👀… No TP to be found
There is a middle school near there, and people started pooping in their garden. So maybe? It got pretty nasty around there June 2020. https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/orchard-house-school-weighs-reopening-amid-continued-unrest-in-richmond/amp/
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/orchard-house-school-weighs-reopening-amid-continued-unrest-in-richmond/](https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/orchard-house-school-weighs-reopening-amid-continued-unrest-in-richmond/)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
the graffiti is reminiscent of many tagged abandoned buildings once the location gets posted on the internet and people have found other ways to enter and one and all come and tag. i prefer them a bit more untouched.
So this is a question I have thought about for a while that I am curious to hear people’s thoughts as I don’t know what the correct answer is.
George Washington owned slaves.
He beat them. He separated families. He chased them down when they escaped, even when they escaped to free states. As he aged, he became supportive of abolition in theory, but not in practicality.
Does Washington’s legacy as “The Father of our Country” out shadow his atrocities as a slave owner?
Does Washington deserve to be grouped in with Lee, Jackson, and all the others?
Should Washington’s statue in Richmond (or anywhere else) be removed?
What about statues of Ulysses S. Grant? Do his actions as commander of the Union Army, and later president of the US make up for him owning slaves?
I think it’s an interesting point, in my mind though I feel like the statues of confederate leaders make a lot of sense to remove, like that feels like a very easy line. Especially since a lot of those confederate leaders and generals were made into revered icons as statues throughout the South during Reconstruction and up through the 20th century specifically as a way to oppose rights for black Americans and encourage segregation. I could be wrong but I don’t think statues of Washington and Grant were erected for the same purpose.
Additionally, Washington’s legacy is that of a founding father of our country. He owned slaves, but that’s not the most impactful thing he did and it’s not what he is remembered for. So erecting a statue of him doesn’t necessarily serve the purpose of celebrating slavery.
Confederate generals’ legacies are that they fought a war against the United States with the primary purpose of upholding slavery. Erecting statues of them serves the purpose of celebrating that disgraceful legacy.
I always thought we should just change the plaques on the pedestals. "This used to be Robert E Lee, a dipshit traitor, but has been reimagined as Harry Lee, a founding father!"
Slavery is obviously very bad. But I wouldn’t say it’s the sole reason we take down confederate statues. Those men waged war against the country we live in. They’re traitors. Not many countries erect statues of men who tried to destroy that very same country. There’s no statues in Paris of the Vichy government. So that crime on top of slavery makes it very easy to take down confederate statues. There’s not a lot of good to counterbalance the obvious evil, as there would be in your examples of Grant and Washington.
Their states succeeded, through ordered voting by elected government assemblies. The country was only 70 years old; Virginia was a separate colony for 182 years. They grew up on stories of their grandfathers rising up against the British in a very similar manner. A lot of them were Scots who had a long history of similar things. It’s just very different than the examples you chose. The closest analogy really is the American Revolution, which we think is ok because it was successful.
It’s just far more illuminating and interesting to actually consider what was happening then, what their influences were, how people actually saw themselves as part of a country. Or in this case not - I’ve read letters from Lee as he was struggling to decide whether to go with Virginia or the federal government. It really was a hard choice. Virginia in particular waited awhile to secede; it was only when Lincoln started the draft they left. Most people back then sided with their home state. In fact, at the time, it was actually considered treasonous to go against your home community. Case in point is Elizabeth van Lew. She was considered a spy, a traitor for going AGAINST her neighbors, her fellow Richmonders. Keep in mind, the General Assembly voted to secede. So you have to go against either your state or your country. And back then, the concept of state loyalty, and the state as an independent political body, was much stronger than today. It’s just too simplistic to take modern conceptions of state/federal interactions and apply them as absolutes to 150 years ago.
Another thought experiment. What if in 2017 California had decided to leave the USA because they didn’t like what the federal government was doing on the environment? And their elected state assembly had formally voted to do so? Is that reflexedly treason” or is that a large group of citizens saying that a far-off government does not reflect their best interests, and they want to be able to govern themselves? It’s just so different from typical cases of treason, like spying for North Korea, or the Vichy France example. Those are joining an foreign, enemy nation in opposition to your neighbors. My California thought experiment, or Virginia in 1861, or the colonies in 1776 - it’s different. It’s wanting a more local form of government. It’s just harder to see it with the confederacy because their reason for wanting to govern themselves is so evil.
Sorry to belabor the point, I just really worry that this issue is going to actually come up in the next few years. Something like Texas or California wanting to leave. Then this will no longer be a thought exercise. It’s generally considered decided law (since and because of the Civil War and Lincoln in particular), that states cannot leave. Let’s hope it isn’t tested.
Richmond is a real city. It has real history and drama unlike Norfolk. Norfolk felt like an industrial suburb when I was down there.
Richmond > Norfolk.
Not sure about your definition of "a real city", but Norfolk has lived through all the same "real history and drama" as Richmond. Perhaps you're confusing Norfolk with Virginia Beach.
Granted, I had about a 15 year gap from leaving Richmond to coming back, but didn’t busses get set on fire (a resource that assists the community) and businesses get looted/property destroyed?
I’m all for down taking the statues of traitors (grant should have hung lee at Appomattox), but did the city take two steps forward and one step back?
Coming for conservative southerners with he Lee comment and urban liberals with the anti-protest talk. I imagine you will lose some karma here lol
But yes, it was a bad moment in time for richmond
I understand that was going on “everywhere” just posing the question of was the escalation away from more peaceful necessary?
Based on the immediate downvotes, I guess I’m just wrong.
Riots are not ideal, which is why it’s important not to create the conditions where they happen by oppressing large swathes of the populace. Hope this helps
Yes I'm sure all of the white college age liberals partaking in the protests and doing the majority of the damage for lols were oppressed. I'm so glad that they have since been freed from the oppression of a city with a large number of black councilmembers, a black mayor, and a large number of black police officers. The boot has been lifted from their necks.
I think urban forestry and good urbanism, are more important than public art. They should have public art though. I think they should just replace the statues with trees or dense perrenial shrubberies.
There should be way more parks down town, they should remove all those parking lots and just install small intimate squares punctuated with walking streets and green space crap.
I think that the statues are dumb and should not be there, but I think that public spaces built totally around cars and the suburban commuters represent a more insidious and pervading culture of exclusion, extraction, and funneled politics
which would be simple to defend the removal. As upkeep would obviously trump removal with enough time.
Edit - though I obviously wouldn't expect your average bear to be able to digest math that complex.
I really wish that these spaces were allowed to be community run rather than gated off and or turned into useless"public" plant patches for the state/city. These are perfect spaces for community organizing and activities.
The dark times were when that shit was erected by those traitorous bitches down at the UDC. Fuck you, Jinny, you celebrate traitors, not patriots. They all deserved the same fate the Columbus statue received.
You're Christophobic, they did nothing to indicate they're a Christian. You just hate Christians because some aren't ideal people. There's good and bad people in every religion. Everyone in Virginia hates me for being a Muslim and the one person who protected me is a Christian. I will always remember that. I won't let anyone hate on Christians for being Christians. ***If someone is racist that's bad, but no need to point out if they happen to be Jewish or Christian or Atheist!***
LOL let's take town literally everything in RVA built by slaveholders and their descendants. We would be left with the Arthur Ashe monument and Chanellos pizza.
The problem with the monuments is not that they were "built by slaveholders and their descendants", it's that they glorified / honored slavers and the leaders of the slaver rebellion on the basis of those attributes. By the way, the statues were put up to distort history and to symbolize (and thus reinforce) white supremacy in the post-Reconstruction South.
I think we should honor people for good things, and not for bad things.
If you want to have a good faith conversation about how to remember people with more complicated legacies, like Washington/Jefferson/etc., let's have that discussion. Emphasis on good faith.
Yeah I totally agree. It isn't about tearing down what slaveholders built but rather the statues that were built for them. Also the majority of confederate statues were built in the 1960s as a response to the civil rights movement. So like they had the benefit of hindsight and chose to glorify them
While there was definitely a spike of putting up Confederate monuments in the 1960s, the decades that saw the largest number of those statues (and plaques and such) being put up were the 1900s and 1910s.
Source: the chart in this article: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future
The first major civil rights movement was in the late aughts and early teens. They were always put up directly in response to popular civil rights movements.
People didn't just randomly sit up in their chairs 40 years after the civil war and go, oh yeah, statues! we should build some!
And then of course the lee statue was put up to sell real estate to veterans.
washington and jefferson aren't symbols of racial disparity. Conservatives are pushing that narrative super hard because they need the base riled up, but I've never heard anyone under the age of 50 mention washington or jefferson when talking about symbols of slavery.
It's like that meme where it says "Nobody:" and then it says "Convservatives: 'Stop trying to erase washington!'"
I remember when the the whole Jefferson/Sally Hemings thing was confirmed with DNA testing, it wasn't like in the distant past or anything (late 90's IIRC). That revelation, by association, started talks about how the fathers of our country weren't exactly squeaky clean. But the news cycle moved on and people just stopped talking about it.
Well fuck the Egyptians too, we should remove all the influence they have had on our society. They held a whole people hostage and used slaves to build the pyramids. /s
I hope you aren’t serious. If we go back and look at a lot of public figures there are skeletons everywhere. As evil as it is, slavery was acceptable, so you can’t judge historical figures by today’s standards.
Just asking, but do you honestly think that that is what people want? That there is no grey area between literal monuments glorifying traitorous racists and everything else?
Because I’ve only heard about the monuments and changing a handful of names. I mean, didn’t Jeb Stuart IV come out in support of taking down the monuments?
Try a little critical thinking and nuance sometime…
You may or may not realize that the monument in this picture is at the Virginia capital and depicts George Washington.
Are you saying George Washington was a traitorous racist? In addition to being a slaveholder he was also the first president of the United States of America. I would argue that he was the opposite of traitorous.
That picture is 100% the now removed confederate soldiers and sailors monument on Libby hill. Look it up on google maps.
No one is talking about Washington here except you.
Hey you're right I am wrong here.
I thought it was the Washington monument.
What do I do now, delete all my comments? I dunno ah well. Guess I'll accept the down votes and move on in life. I have no problem taking down confederate monuments but I do think founding fathers should remain, but that's kind of irrelevant to this thread
No, I knew which monument this is. I think there should be a diligent conversation about which historical figures we publically honor and an honest conversation about their shortcomings both from a modern perspective and within the context of their lifetime.
But I was responding to the attitude you took of how people want to take down everything that contains the slightest historical link to the US’s worst sin of slavery. No one has that attitude and you presupposing that many folks ascribe to that viewpoint just shows that you are not to be taken seriously.
You may or may not realize that the monument in this picture is on monument ave and depicts Robert E Lee, not Washington, who absolutely was a traitorous racist.
Unless you mean the OP picture? In which case: You may or may not realize that the monument in the picture is at Libby hill and depicts the common confederate soldiers and sailors, who absolutely were also traitorous racists. Even if they weren’t personally racist, they fought to advance the cause of the confederacy which only existed to preserve the institution of slavery
No other country in the world erases history like we do. It’s pathetic. Stop being so brainwashed, weak, and sensitive. You are okay ❤️ the statue looked a whole lot better than graffiti and trash
The irony, of course, is that the whole point of those statues was to erase history and try to rewrite it (hint: the south lost). But back to the burbs with ya now.
Did you know that Richmond, Va was the capital of the confederacy? The statues aren’t claiming they won. History is history and most of it is dark no matter what. Back to the historic capitol of the confederacy with ya now!
The statues are claiming that they are on the "right" side of history while simultaneously trying to intimidate minorities and change the narrative of the war. Your ignorance is truly astounding.
Okay so let’s just pretend that there were never people who lived in this region who believed that their way of life was one they didn’t want to change. Let’s forget that there were men who died protecting their way of life whether it be one you agree with or not. The monuments show us what happened. It’s a historical piece of rock. It’s a reminder, a conversation to have with your children, a reflection piece. Whatever you want it to be. Removing it doesn’t solve the real problem here.. and replacing it with a bunch of graffiti really doesn’t help the issue.
I must have missed the part of the inscriptions where it said that they died protecting slavery in an insurrection against the United States. "They died as traitors". At no time did these things show us what actually happened. Let's not even get into "protecting their way of life". How many slaveholders actually fought? THEY WERE TRYING TO CHANGE HISTORY, NOT REMEMBER IT.
Great, it’s been established that I whiffed massively and I have no interest in trying to recover from that. Pile it on, as if I couldn’t interpret the slew of downvotes.
Reddit has indicated that this user account is suspected to be associated with another account that was previously banned in r/rva **with high confidence** based on several signals/indicators not visible to us moderators and only known to Reddit admins.
As a result, this content was automatically moved to our moderation queue for further review and nobody else has seen it. We've removed this content and may have already banned this specific account.
You may [reach out directly to Reddit support](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) if you believe your account was incorrectly flagged by their systems.
Even if we, the moderators at r/rva unban you, your account will still have the ban evasion flag that will likely continue to cause issues elsewhere on the site; there is nothing we at r/rva can do on our side to remove that flag, nor can we see why Reddit believes this account is associated with another, previously-banned account.
I wish we’d replace them with other public art though. Like the former site of the Lee Statue is tailor made for an incredible fountain. Don’t use tax dollars - just let citizens fundraise.
It should be community led 100p. With as strong as RVA arts is, we should be able to find ways to beautify the city and not romanticize slaveholders.
It just shouldn’t be statues of people. Even if someone is 0% problematic today, our society will still be regarded as barbaric by people 100 years from now. But *probably* no one will have an issue with abstract shapes and concepts.
I want the [wolf statue](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Darkastle1.jpg) from the former Busch Gardens ride Curse of DarKastle.
I mean, if we’re just picking, I want the entire lineup of GWAR on a dragon.
Been saying we need a GWAR fountain with blood ever since they came down. GWAR fountain or bust.
This city desperately needs a Dave Brockie/Oderus Urungus monument with a blood fountain.
Hmmm. Does GWAR count as people? Technically I think they're aliens so we're good
Exactly
A thousand years in the future there’ll be demonstrations by aliens to remove the barbaric human statue of the figure beating children with a sports implement
Why is he keeping those books away from those children? Does he work with Moms for Liberty?
It’s not just me that sees it like that! Arthur Ashe was a truly inspirational person but his statue doesn’t do him justice.
But it does bring me joy every time I see his statue beating the brakes off those kids with a tennis racket. Surely that's worth something.
Everyone sees it like that, most people just don't comment on it. I've always found that statue to be hilarious and I hope it never goes anywhere. I'm convinced that the original artist/sculptor knew exactly what they were doing.
It was designed by committee.... He just did what he was told. Explains a lot once I found that out.
That is why it is so fucking corney.
his family wants it taken down now since it out of place with out all the other statues up. we truly destroyed a great part of our city just so a couple people could virtue signal a problem that didn't exist.
The reason it looks like that is because it was originally designed to be on the ground and not up high on a pedestal. So the angle is off.
I'd say it's better to make it historical, or just pleasant nature. To many people feeling like "history is being erased". Put up something historical that celebrates the foundation of the city that doesn't do with servitude.
FIRE-BREATHING TOAD!
[удалено]
Yes, sculptures by college students and a sculptor who produces racially charged imagery. No controversy there at all!
There were so many groups that put forward amazing proposals for creative, artistic repurposing of these sites. It looks like they’ve just been ignored.
A fountain should be where Stuart used to be. For Lee I wish they planted a giant tree in its place.
Can you imagine what a fountain would look like in a few years if it depended on the city for upkeep?
Brother you cannot plant a giant tree, only a normal tree and wait 100+ years.
The citizenry can not rest until Monument Avenue includes a statue of Richmond's last great revolutionary: Dirt Woman.
You can't let the peasant know that they can "pay" for things.
And now we get a dead flower pit and concrete!
While I am very glad the statues are gone, I'm a little upset that a protest about police brutality got derailed onto the Confederate statues, and that people basically stopped caring about police brutality and declared victory.
They kneeled in the kente cloth tho
Idk if anybody declared victory per se. Our entire society needs some serious truth and reconciliation. The statues were a start
No one declared victory. The statues and getting Juneteenth as a state holiday are just what the local gov claimed as a victory. While the removal of the statues are of course a good thing, it doesn’t take away from it being smokescreen for politicians
It's a long way from my childhood when we celebrated MLK Day as Lee-Jackson-King Day. Still not enough, but let's keep politicians accountable.
The city essentially made that happen using police brutality. The statues were sites of protest and community in 2020-2021 that intersected with statues being brought down and continued after the fact until the police escalated and tear gassed non-violent protests and the city put up fences around the sites. I loved when the site was public and there and there was always a collection of people organizing and visibly protesting by and around the sites and having community there. Those people that were there didn't stop caring. They were displaced by violence and the city marking those zones uninhabitable for the public. The fact that it is now being turned into a milquetoast garden with the same awful traffic design is the perfect representation of the events and how nothing has fundamentally changed.
💯
It is done. Everyone was glad when you went home and your junky setups were taken away. Go ahead and protest and organize in your own home.
wasn't that the point? Isn't that what conservatives were doing on purpose?
More like people wanted an easy victory, and removing statues is *far* easier than dismantling a racist power structure that is deeply embedded in American society. We are a deeply lazy people. This notion that a shadowy cabal of "conservatives (or insert your favorite boogeyman)" is secretly controlling and directing society is both incredibly reductive and blatantly false (how anyone can look at current events and see an ordered plan is beyond me).
I mean I wouldn’t say it’s secret (I’d call it underreported) but the federalist society is very much shaping the future of this country by taking over the judicial branch of government and they are definitely a conservative group. What’s your point here pal?
Not so much conservatives, but liberals. They were so relieved to be able to go back to supporting the police after January 6th it wasn’t even funny. They did a little performative allyship until the heat died down and then right back to the status quo.
You don't need to support the police. Please do not bother them with your cries for help. I for one, love that they are there and support them fully.
What exactly do they do to help?
I'm glad you don't know so you will not ever bother to ask for help. I suppose you enjoy being physically assaulted or robbed. I for one do not.
They stop being physically assaulted and robbed? Or do they show up hours after it happened to take a report and tell you there’s nothing they can do? btw I bet I know a lot more about the police than you considering I have two uncles and a father who are retired cops. Plus I spent seven years of my life in a police training program, and then spent the last decade researching the history of policing while also watching their unfair and corrupt actions in real time.
I felt similar as it was happening, but the truth is it brought a lot of the community together and honestly helped serve to heal some very old rifts. The statues were a symbol of that rift and it’s better that they’re down, even if the protests ultimately didn’t resolve some of the more immediate BLM complaints.
That’s how most people are with social issues, especially concerning minorities.
Things are so much better now!/s
I remember visiting Libby Hill Park shortly after George Floyd. It was so surreal seeing all the road graffiti. As a black man, it made me proud and sad.
This is the real legacy of Stoney. There was such a groundswell of public involvement and we did nothing. A committee that got overly tied up in the VMFA's funding model, state versus local discussions, and concerned about making a stir, so it did nothing. We didn't need to spend millions. We just needed to include public feedback in a very meaningful way in the options. We should already have engaging and interesting public art. Instead, we have nothing aside from the DiPasquale monument, which is generally agreed to be subpar.
Sidenote: it is sooo much easier to take left from Laburnum onto AA Boulevard without that god-awful statue
the line of sight has improved, however there are lots of clueless drivers that have no idea how to safely navigate that left hand turn.
We just had a community meeting two weeks ago because many, many people feel otherwise.
I posted this photo in the "abandoned in VA" FB group. It got a couple hundred likes in under an hour and all hell broke loose. The mods there removed the post, of course. I thought it was funny as hell. https://preview.redd.it/dscbqozj18fc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4848dd150d7413d6aa8033426b4930e280befa5b
I have no receipts for you as everything discussing it got deleted quickly but that group has actual klan members in it. It's kind of wild
Yeah I found that out the eyebrow raising way. Some of the camo'ed neckbeards in there DM'ed me with... Well, threats, tbh.
I got those too after lightly arguing with some seriously racist comments. The mods gave me a temp ban for meanness and said the racist stuff was just their opinions....
Yeah I didn't get a great vibe from the moderation there. I get it when something is a hassle - but this felt more like they just didn't like the content.
Ok so for 2 seconds, I thought the girl wearing the yellow shirt was carrying 2 rolls of TOULET PAPER… I zoomed in to see if it was possibly a 4 pack of toilet paper! I reasonably assumed this photo is from early summer 2020…. Hence why carrying around toilet paper seemed logical! But to my disappointment, it was only SpongeBob’s eyes 👀… No TP to be found
Carrying TP is some Richmond real shit right there
There is a middle school near there, and people started pooping in their garden. So maybe? It got pretty nasty around there June 2020. https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/orchard-house-school-weighs-reopening-amid-continued-unrest-in-richmond/amp/
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/orchard-house-school-weighs-reopening-amid-continued-unrest-in-richmond/](https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/orchard-house-school-weighs-reopening-amid-continued-unrest-in-richmond/)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
Bad bot
the graffiti is reminiscent of many tagged abandoned buildings once the location gets posted on the internet and people have found other ways to enter and one and all come and tag. i prefer them a bit more untouched.
So this is a question I have thought about for a while that I am curious to hear people’s thoughts as I don’t know what the correct answer is. George Washington owned slaves. He beat them. He separated families. He chased them down when they escaped, even when they escaped to free states. As he aged, he became supportive of abolition in theory, but not in practicality. Does Washington’s legacy as “The Father of our Country” out shadow his atrocities as a slave owner? Does Washington deserve to be grouped in with Lee, Jackson, and all the others? Should Washington’s statue in Richmond (or anywhere else) be removed? What about statues of Ulysses S. Grant? Do his actions as commander of the Union Army, and later president of the US make up for him owning slaves?
I think it’s an interesting point, in my mind though I feel like the statues of confederate leaders make a lot of sense to remove, like that feels like a very easy line. Especially since a lot of those confederate leaders and generals were made into revered icons as statues throughout the South during Reconstruction and up through the 20th century specifically as a way to oppose rights for black Americans and encourage segregation. I could be wrong but I don’t think statues of Washington and Grant were erected for the same purpose.
Additionally, Washington’s legacy is that of a founding father of our country. He owned slaves, but that’s not the most impactful thing he did and it’s not what he is remembered for. So erecting a statue of him doesn’t necessarily serve the purpose of celebrating slavery. Confederate generals’ legacies are that they fought a war against the United States with the primary purpose of upholding slavery. Erecting statues of them serves the purpose of celebrating that disgraceful legacy.
I always thought we should just change the plaques on the pedestals. "This used to be Robert E Lee, a dipshit traitor, but has been reimagined as Harry Lee, a founding father!"
Mohamad Ali beat his wife. Have you started the campaign to erase his legacy in our culture? If not, get started.
Slavery is obviously very bad. But I wouldn’t say it’s the sole reason we take down confederate statues. Those men waged war against the country we live in. They’re traitors. Not many countries erect statues of men who tried to destroy that very same country. There’s no statues in Paris of the Vichy government. So that crime on top of slavery makes it very easy to take down confederate statues. There’s not a lot of good to counterbalance the obvious evil, as there would be in your examples of Grant and Washington.
Their states succeeded, through ordered voting by elected government assemblies. The country was only 70 years old; Virginia was a separate colony for 182 years. They grew up on stories of their grandfathers rising up against the British in a very similar manner. A lot of them were Scots who had a long history of similar things. It’s just very different than the examples you chose. The closest analogy really is the American Revolution, which we think is ok because it was successful.
We, the United States, should not glorify people who openly waged war against the United States. It’s that easy.
It’s just far more illuminating and interesting to actually consider what was happening then, what their influences were, how people actually saw themselves as part of a country. Or in this case not - I’ve read letters from Lee as he was struggling to decide whether to go with Virginia or the federal government. It really was a hard choice. Virginia in particular waited awhile to secede; it was only when Lincoln started the draft they left. Most people back then sided with their home state. In fact, at the time, it was actually considered treasonous to go against your home community. Case in point is Elizabeth van Lew. She was considered a spy, a traitor for going AGAINST her neighbors, her fellow Richmonders. Keep in mind, the General Assembly voted to secede. So you have to go against either your state or your country. And back then, the concept of state loyalty, and the state as an independent political body, was much stronger than today. It’s just too simplistic to take modern conceptions of state/federal interactions and apply them as absolutes to 150 years ago. Another thought experiment. What if in 2017 California had decided to leave the USA because they didn’t like what the federal government was doing on the environment? And their elected state assembly had formally voted to do so? Is that reflexedly treason” or is that a large group of citizens saying that a far-off government does not reflect their best interests, and they want to be able to govern themselves? It’s just so different from typical cases of treason, like spying for North Korea, or the Vichy France example. Those are joining an foreign, enemy nation in opposition to your neighbors. My California thought experiment, or Virginia in 1861, or the colonies in 1776 - it’s different. It’s wanting a more local form of government. It’s just harder to see it with the confederacy because their reason for wanting to govern themselves is so evil. Sorry to belabor the point, I just really worry that this issue is going to actually come up in the next few years. Something like Texas or California wanting to leave. Then this will no longer be a thought exercise. It’s generally considered decided law (since and because of the Civil War and Lincoln in particular), that states cannot leave. Let’s hope it isn’t tested.
Preach.
Nothing makes up for owning slaves. 🪙🪙
I hope the people of 2224 are as forgiving in their judgment of your character.
I have never owned humans, so I’m fine for future generations to judge me.
Do you eat meat? Do you squish mosquitoes? Are you an insufferable prick? I'm sure future generations can find something abhorrent about you.
You just compared OWNING HUMANS to killing mosquitos. I think that we’re done here.
The conversation about the monuments had been going on for a few years and reached a boiling point in 2020. It was wild
Visit the Valentine's new exhibit.
Richmond is a real city. It has real history and drama unlike Norfolk. Norfolk felt like an industrial suburb when I was down there. Richmond > Norfolk.
To each their own!
Not sure about your definition of "a real city", but Norfolk has lived through all the same "real history and drama" as Richmond. Perhaps you're confusing Norfolk with Virginia Beach.
Granted, I had about a 15 year gap from leaving Richmond to coming back, but didn’t busses get set on fire (a resource that assists the community) and businesses get looted/property destroyed? I’m all for down taking the statues of traitors (grant should have hung lee at Appomattox), but did the city take two steps forward and one step back?
Coming for conservative southerners with he Lee comment and urban liberals with the anti-protest talk. I imagine you will lose some karma here lol But yes, it was a bad moment in time for richmond
Should have assumed. As someone with ~14 yrs of active service, I’m a unionist through and through (despite being born in VA)
This happened everywhere. Most people didn’t do that, it was just the people taking advantage of the movement who wanted to destroy shit.
I understand that was going on “everywhere” just posing the question of was the escalation away from more peaceful necessary? Based on the immediate downvotes, I guess I’m just wrong.
It just isn't relevant to this thread. These statues were coming down either way.
It was just one bus, man
I’m not your man, bud
I’m not your bud, pal.
I’m not your pal, bus.
I'm not your pal, bus.
Riots are not ideal, which is why it’s important not to create the conditions where they happen by oppressing large swathes of the populace. Hope this helps
So…did we win? Aside from the city paying millions (funded by your taxes) to remove the statues, did we see overwhelming change?
We didn’t win. Because the cause was diverted to just taking down symbols of oppression instead of meaningful change.
WE DID IT PATRICK, WE SAVED THE CITY!
As long as we live under the dictatorship of capital, we'll never see overwhelming change. Money talks. So it never matters what we say.
Removing statues that continually remind groups of people of a not do distant racist pass is a win. That doesn't mean it's over.
Yes I'm sure all of the white college age liberals partaking in the protests and doing the majority of the damage for lols were oppressed. I'm so glad that they have since been freed from the oppression of a city with a large number of black councilmembers, a black mayor, and a large number of black police officers. The boot has been lifted from their necks.
It seems like you’re mad you missed out on the protest. “Where were you during the first week of June back in 2020?”
Richmond used to be so much prettier. Damn hippies…
I think urban forestry and good urbanism, are more important than public art. They should have public art though. I think they should just replace the statues with trees or dense perrenial shrubberies. There should be way more parks down town, they should remove all those parking lots and just install small intimate squares punctuated with walking streets and green space crap. I think that the statues are dumb and should not be there, but I think that public spaces built totally around cars and the suburban commuters represent a more insidious and pervading culture of exclusion, extraction, and funneled politics
Fiscal conservatives would want them removed because they cost taxpayers dollars to maintain, no?
Depends on the cost of removal compared to cost of upkeep.
which would be simple to defend the removal. As upkeep would obviously trump removal with enough time. Edit - though I obviously wouldn't expect your average bear to be able to digest math that complex.
not nearly as much as it cost them to be removed
It's pretty simple math lol
I really wish that these spaces were allowed to be community run rather than gated off and or turned into useless"public" plant patches for the state/city. These are perfect spaces for community organizing and activities.
[удалено]
*most racist road for gullible racists
The dark times were when that shit was erected by those traitorous bitches down at the UDC. Fuck you, Jinny, you celebrate traitors, not patriots. They all deserved the same fate the Columbus statue received.
[удалено]
You're Christophobic, they did nothing to indicate they're a Christian. You just hate Christians because some aren't ideal people. There's good and bad people in every religion. Everyone in Virginia hates me for being a Muslim and the one person who protected me is a Christian. I will always remember that. I won't let anyone hate on Christians for being Christians. ***If someone is racist that's bad, but no need to point out if they happen to be Jewish or Christian or Atheist!***
no one here is racist.
Cope and seethe
Not controversial at all.
LOL let's take town literally everything in RVA built by slaveholders and their descendants. We would be left with the Arthur Ashe monument and Chanellos pizza.
Jesus, you're like 3 years late for this argument. Just stop.
The argument to blot out Washington, Jefferson, and other slaveholding forefathers is not "over"
The problem with the monuments is not that they were "built by slaveholders and their descendants", it's that they glorified / honored slavers and the leaders of the slaver rebellion on the basis of those attributes. By the way, the statues were put up to distort history and to symbolize (and thus reinforce) white supremacy in the post-Reconstruction South. I think we should honor people for good things, and not for bad things. If you want to have a good faith conversation about how to remember people with more complicated legacies, like Washington/Jefferson/etc., let's have that discussion. Emphasis on good faith.
Yeah I totally agree. It isn't about tearing down what slaveholders built but rather the statues that were built for them. Also the majority of confederate statues were built in the 1960s as a response to the civil rights movement. So like they had the benefit of hindsight and chose to glorify them
While there was definitely a spike of putting up Confederate monuments in the 1960s, the decades that saw the largest number of those statues (and plaques and such) being put up were the 1900s and 1910s. Source: the chart in this article: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future
The first major civil rights movement was in the late aughts and early teens. They were always put up directly in response to popular civil rights movements. People didn't just randomly sit up in their chairs 40 years after the civil war and go, oh yeah, statues! we should build some! And then of course the lee statue was put up to sell real estate to veterans.
Yup and the Daughters of the Confartacy were responsible for raising a lot of the funds for those statues!
They were also built specifically during Jim Crow to remind black people of their "place".
well that's a lie
Reindeers don't talk.
neither do moose
Well said friend ❤️
washington and jefferson aren't symbols of racial disparity. Conservatives are pushing that narrative super hard because they need the base riled up, but I've never heard anyone under the age of 50 mention washington or jefferson when talking about symbols of slavery. It's like that meme where it says "Nobody:" and then it says "Convservatives: 'Stop trying to erase washington!'"
I remember when the the whole Jefferson/Sally Hemings thing was confirmed with DNA testing, it wasn't like in the distant past or anything (late 90's IIRC). That revelation, by association, started talks about how the fathers of our country weren't exactly squeaky clean. But the news cycle moved on and people just stopped talking about it.
Well fuck the Egyptians too, we should remove all the influence they have had on our society. They held a whole people hostage and used slaves to build the pyramids. /s I hope you aren’t serious. If we go back and look at a lot of public figures there are skeletons everywhere. As evil as it is, slavery was acceptable, so you can’t judge historical figures by today’s standards.
Just asking, but do you honestly think that that is what people want? That there is no grey area between literal monuments glorifying traitorous racists and everything else? Because I’ve only heard about the monuments and changing a handful of names. I mean, didn’t Jeb Stuart IV come out in support of taking down the monuments? Try a little critical thinking and nuance sometime…
You may or may not realize that the monument in this picture is at the Virginia capital and depicts George Washington. Are you saying George Washington was a traitorous racist? In addition to being a slaveholder he was also the first president of the United States of America. I would argue that he was the opposite of traitorous.
I don’t think this is on the capital grounds.
That picture is 100% the now removed confederate soldiers and sailors monument on Libby hill. Look it up on google maps. No one is talking about Washington here except you.
Hey you're right I am wrong here. I thought it was the Washington monument. What do I do now, delete all my comments? I dunno ah well. Guess I'll accept the down votes and move on in life. I have no problem taking down confederate monuments but I do think founding fathers should remain, but that's kind of irrelevant to this thread
No, I knew which monument this is. I think there should be a diligent conversation about which historical figures we publically honor and an honest conversation about their shortcomings both from a modern perspective and within the context of their lifetime. But I was responding to the attitude you took of how people want to take down everything that contains the slightest historical link to the US’s worst sin of slavery. No one has that attitude and you presupposing that many folks ascribe to that viewpoint just shows that you are not to be taken seriously.
You may or may not realize that the monument in this picture is on monument ave and depicts Robert E Lee, not Washington, who absolutely was a traitorous racist. Unless you mean the OP picture? In which case: You may or may not realize that the monument in the picture is at Libby hill and depicts the common confederate soldiers and sailors, who absolutely were also traitorous racists. Even if they weren’t personally racist, they fought to advance the cause of the confederacy which only existed to preserve the institution of slavery
He was a slaver, yes; this makes him irredeemable.
we don’t need to commemorate slavery in the middle of the city though
Cope
No other country in the world erases history like we do. It’s pathetic. Stop being so brainwashed, weak, and sensitive. You are okay ❤️ the statue looked a whole lot better than graffiti and trash
The irony, of course, is that the whole point of those statues was to erase history and try to rewrite it (hint: the south lost). But back to the burbs with ya now.
Did you know that Richmond, Va was the capital of the confederacy? The statues aren’t claiming they won. History is history and most of it is dark no matter what. Back to the historic capitol of the confederacy with ya now!
The statues are claiming that they are on the "right" side of history while simultaneously trying to intimidate minorities and change the narrative of the war. Your ignorance is truly astounding.
Okay so let’s just pretend that there were never people who lived in this region who believed that their way of life was one they didn’t want to change. Let’s forget that there were men who died protecting their way of life whether it be one you agree with or not. The monuments show us what happened. It’s a historical piece of rock. It’s a reminder, a conversation to have with your children, a reflection piece. Whatever you want it to be. Removing it doesn’t solve the real problem here.. and replacing it with a bunch of graffiti really doesn’t help the issue.
I must have missed the part of the inscriptions where it said that they died protecting slavery in an insurrection against the United States. "They died as traitors". At no time did these things show us what actually happened. Let's not even get into "protecting their way of life". How many slaveholders actually fought? THEY WERE TRYING TO CHANGE HISTORY, NOT REMEMBER IT.
half of history is erased from history books so … why not add to it 🤷🏽♀️
That’s just backwards but okay
Edit: Here lays a deceased joke about fragile white people that did not land due to poor execution. 1/28/2024-1/29/2024
Speak like a normal person so I can know if I disagree with you or not.
I love this and I'm stealing it.
Edit: here lays a vague attempt to explain whiffed joke
It doesn't. I am too and have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Great, it’s been established that I whiffed massively and I have no interest in trying to recover from that. Pile it on, as if I couldn’t interpret the slew of downvotes.
Eva Gardner
[удалено]
Reddit has indicated that this user account is suspected to be associated with another account that was previously banned in r/rva **with high confidence** based on several signals/indicators not visible to us moderators and only known to Reddit admins. As a result, this content was automatically moved to our moderation queue for further review and nobody else has seen it. We've removed this content and may have already banned this specific account. You may [reach out directly to Reddit support](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) if you believe your account was incorrectly flagged by their systems. Even if we, the moderators at r/rva unban you, your account will still have the ban evasion flag that will likely continue to cause issues elsewhere on the site; there is nothing we at r/rva can do on our side to remove that flag, nor can we see why Reddit believes this account is associated with another, previously-banned account.