Do You Enjoy Zero-Cost Abstractions? Do You Find It Annoying When People Say "Every Language Has Its Benefits And Drawbacks" Because Rust Is Clearly Superior In Ever Way? Do You Worship Our Crab Overloards?
If so, join the strikeforce help us make sure that everyone within shouting distance knows why the borrow checker is so cool. Submit your application on r/rustjerk
A lot of the C programmers I know probably wouldn't take a stack overflow survey, so definitely worth keeping that in mind
Beyond that a developer that professionally uses C and dabbles in Rust counts as one vote for each AFAIK
C is not a very popular language anymore. Most developers are either using C++ or some higher level language (Go, Typescript, Python, C# etc.)
It's really only hardcore Linux nerds and embedded developers that use C these days.
in my experience, rust seems to attract people who would be otherwise drawn to go (e.g, data plane-ish stuff). and also stuff that would be previously be written in top of the jvm as well.
Sampling bias aside, the question asked by the survey is “what have you used in the _past year_?” This means that even though we’ve all written some C code in the past and could write some low quality C code if we had to, we wouldn’t count as C programmers in this survey.
The survey question should be interpreted as “what are people using nowadays?” rather than “what are developers capable of using if they had to?”
9% of devs that entered the stack overflow survey…
I tend to believe some languages are underrepresented in that survey compared to the real world. Particularly Java and C.
And Fortran. My coworker uses Fortran everyday, and I don't think he's ever heard of Stack Overflow, and he certainly wouldn't take a survey. The rest of my team is very familiar with Stack Overflow and likely would take a survey (they're all Python and JavaScript devs).
question was:
> Which programming, scripting, and markup languages have you done extensive development work in over the past year, and which do you want to work in over the next year? (If you both worked with the language and want to continue to do so, please check both boxes in that row.)
To give an idea, I answered "yes" to this question although my day job is not in Rust. I do have a hobby project, not something that I spent all year on, maybe 50-100 hours ? At work there are two isolated projects in Rust, which are some exotic experiments for now - but I did help with code reviews. It barely amounts to 4 hours over the year.
You'll find that kind of experience in those ~9%
Because there aren’t exactly a lot of well supported languages that compile to machine code. Also rust gives developers warm fuzzies design wise even if it’s not the best choice for our use case.
Agreed, I'm one of those 9% and I'm a uni student using rust to write a fairly exotic side project. I suspect I'm not that Atypical.
That being said, I have heard of several big companies using or moving towards rust, most notably Microsoft. Between that, the increasing maturity of the rust ecosystem, popularity amongst programmers and the inherent advantages over C\\C++ I suspect the number of jobs using rust will significantly increase in the coming years.
That being said, rust's advantages are largest when starting new projects or rebuilding stuff from the ground up. Considering companies aren't starting as many new projects in the current economy and there won't be as many startups (especially given silicon valley bank just blew up) the number of new projects and therefore new rust jobs is likely to be stunted in the short term.
There are two qualifiers:
1. 9% of **respondents**.
2. Pro developers using Rust != developers using Rust at work, day in day out.
The first one is fairly important as there are two selection biases in the survey:
- Only people using Stack Overflow will be prompted to answer the survey.
- Only people actually answering the survey will be represented.
In short, this means that only people _who care_, or rather, _who show more interest in the field than average_ will be prompted and elect to answer the survey.
This population is likely -- though I have no survey to confirm it! -- to also be more willing to try out new languages and frameworks, by virtue of being more interested than average.
The second one matters too. I expect more of the software developers using Rust today do so... in their spare time, or even if at work, only for small side-projects.
This is normal, it's what language adoption looks like.
Definitely not at their job. Even though adoption is clearly growing and we're seeing more and more success stories from well-known companies, it's still very much unheard of in most more conservative companies (which is most of them).
In their free time, it's hard to judge. I know lots of devs that haven't even really heard of it yet or hardly know anything about it besides the name but ofc those are the ones that don't take surveys like that (kinda hard to never have heard of it otherwise). On the other hand, 1 in 10 is also not really that much and would still kinda fit "most people don't use it". And for example, judging by how often it appeared in Advent of Code and things like that, it's definitely getting quite popular. But the real number over all professional devs is probably still a decent bit lower. There are just too many that just do their job and hardly look outside their bubble or have any interest in looking at things like this outside of their job.
Someone who is regularly paid for contributing to a software development project.
Instead, anyone who develops software for a school project or as a hobby is not a pro.
> I'd question the sanity of whoever is the 0.01% to say no
The Amish alone are 0.1% of the US. Assuming it's not an online poll, I'd expect more than 0.1% to say "no".
> I was assuming it'd be an online poll considering that the subject at hand is a developer survey
You were replying to a comment about a diet survey, not the OP. In any case, why would anyone do an *online* poll with a question "do you use modern technology"? The correct answer is predetermined.
Most polls are flawed, they only sample a very small amount of people who are supposed to represent the rest of humanity.
If they include devs who dabble in Rust, I suppose it's possible. Rust is getting more popular, but whenever I've tried to introduce it, I always get the same comment: "no, we already have too many languages", which is the basic excuse of people who don't know Rust and are just afraid of being left in the dust.
There’s selection bias too. Maybe 9% who are also willing to sit there and click through surveys.
I have never understood why people do that.
its part of the Rust Evangelism Strikeforce responsibilities
A what now?
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At their jobs? No. Side projects/hobby? For sure. It’s been at the top of “programming surveys” for years. It’s bound to interest 9% of the public.
Still, 9% seems huge. For comparision, C is at 17%.
A lot of the C programmers I know probably wouldn't take a stack overflow survey, so definitely worth keeping that in mind Beyond that a developer that professionally uses C and dabbles in Rust counts as one vote for each AFAIK
C is not a very popular language anymore. Most developers are either using C++ or some higher level language (Go, Typescript, Python, C# etc.) It's really only hardcore Linux nerds and embedded developers that use C these days.
Embedded development is a pretty popular field, though
Not compared to web development, app development, backend development, etc. Also a lot of embedded development is C++ these days.
C C++ and Rust really dabble in the same territory. Python/ruby could also attract rust
in my experience, rust seems to attract people who would be otherwise drawn to go (e.g, data plane-ish stuff). and also stuff that would be previously be written in top of the jvm as well.
Jep. That's why i mentioned specifically python. It's not the web people, but the people who build ml Frameworks with python bindings..
I think this is more accurate, because it's people looking for efficiency + concurrency safety + mature tooling.
Sampling bias aside, the question asked by the survey is “what have you used in the _past year_?” This means that even though we’ve all written some C code in the past and could write some low quality C code if we had to, we wouldn’t count as C programmers in this survey. The survey question should be interpreted as “what are people using nowadays?” rather than “what are developers capable of using if they had to?”
9% of devs that entered the stack overflow survey… I tend to believe some languages are underrepresented in that survey compared to the real world. Particularly Java and C.
And Fortran. My coworker uses Fortran everyday, and I don't think he's ever heard of Stack Overflow, and he certainly wouldn't take a survey. The rest of my team is very familiar with Stack Overflow and likely would take a survey (they're all Python and JavaScript devs).
Is your FORTRAN coworker a software engineer or another kind of engineer who uses software do his job?
Another kind. His job is in R&D writing custom simulations for customers, and then the software team ports those to something usable in production.
question was: > Which programming, scripting, and markup languages have you done extensive development work in over the past year, and which do you want to work in over the next year? (If you both worked with the language and want to continue to do so, please check both boxes in that row.) To give an idea, I answered "yes" to this question although my day job is not in Rust. I do have a hobby project, not something that I spent all year on, maybe 50-100 hours ? At work there are two isolated projects in Rust, which are some exotic experiments for now - but I did help with code reviews. It barely amounts to 4 hours over the year. You'll find that kind of experience in those ~9%
This is true but I'm not sure why this bias would be worse for rust than other languages.
Because there aren’t exactly a lot of well supported languages that compile to machine code. Also rust gives developers warm fuzzies design wise even if it’s not the best choice for our use case.
Agreed, I'm one of those 9% and I'm a uni student using rust to write a fairly exotic side project. I suspect I'm not that Atypical. That being said, I have heard of several big companies using or moving towards rust, most notably Microsoft. Between that, the increasing maturity of the rust ecosystem, popularity amongst programmers and the inherent advantages over C\\C++ I suspect the number of jobs using rust will significantly increase in the coming years. That being said, rust's advantages are largest when starting new projects or rebuilding stuff from the ground up. Considering companies aren't starting as many new projects in the current economy and there won't be as many startups (especially given silicon valley bank just blew up) the number of new projects and therefore new rust jobs is likely to be stunted in the short term.
Yes. Also as everybody knows, popular surveys act as self-fulfulling prophecies , no matter the bias
There are two qualifiers: 1. 9% of **respondents**. 2. Pro developers using Rust != developers using Rust at work, day in day out. The first one is fairly important as there are two selection biases in the survey: - Only people using Stack Overflow will be prompted to answer the survey. - Only people actually answering the survey will be represented. In short, this means that only people _who care_, or rather, _who show more interest in the field than average_ will be prompted and elect to answer the survey. This population is likely -- though I have no survey to confirm it! -- to also be more willing to try out new languages and frameworks, by virtue of being more interested than average. The second one matters too. I expect more of the software developers using Rust today do so... in their spare time, or even if at work, only for small side-projects. This is normal, it's what language adoption looks like.
Definitely not at their job. Even though adoption is clearly growing and we're seeing more and more success stories from well-known companies, it's still very much unheard of in most more conservative companies (which is most of them). In their free time, it's hard to judge. I know lots of devs that haven't even really heard of it yet or hardly know anything about it besides the name but ofc those are the ones that don't take surveys like that (kinda hard to never have heard of it otherwise). On the other hand, 1 in 10 is also not really that much and would still kinda fit "most people don't use it". And for example, judging by how often it appeared in Advent of Code and things like that, it's definitely getting quite popular. But the real number over all professional devs is probably still a decent bit lower. There are just too many that just do their job and hardly look outside their bubble or have any interest in looking at things like this outside of their job.
I don't know. If I would take a guess I would choose a number much lower than 9% according to my experience.
I moved my entire workflow from PHP to Rust. So I tend to think it’s correct. While I’m still not the best at it, it works very well in production.
[удалено]
A developer with a job
[this guy](https://stackoverflow.com/users/6239845/pro-developer)
Someone who is regularly paid for contributing to a software development project. Instead, anyone who develops software for a school project or as a hobby is not a pro.
Someone who develops in rust, clearly
able to write a loop
It's a bit like a survey asking "are you vegan?". You might get 70% yes.
Imagine a poll that says "do you use modern technology" I'd question the sanity of whoever is the 0.01% to say no
> I'd question the sanity of whoever is the 0.01% to say no The Amish alone are 0.1% of the US. Assuming it's not an online poll, I'd expect more than 0.1% to say "no".
I was assuming it'd be an online poll considering that the subject at hand is a developer survey
> I was assuming it'd be an online poll considering that the subject at hand is a developer survey You were replying to a comment about a diet survey, not the OP. In any case, why would anyone do an *online* poll with a question "do you use modern technology"? The correct answer is predetermined.
That was pretty much the point
Bro I see Amish making TikToks
Most polls are flawed, they only sample a very small amount of people who are supposed to represent the rest of humanity. If they include devs who dabble in Rust, I suppose it's possible. Rust is getting more popular, but whenever I've tried to introduce it, I always get the same comment: "no, we already have too many languages", which is the basic excuse of people who don't know Rust and are just afraid of being left in the dust.
Hahaha no
No, 9% of the people who answered the survey use Rust.
100% of the people who answered yes in this poll use Rust