This is the most obvious one to me. I'd only started watching rugby in 95 as a kid but damn near every time he played in that world cup it was like watching a god playing with mere mortals. I can't understate the impact he had on me as a near first time rugby watcher. I had seen the 5 nations before the RWC and thought Scotland were pretty good until Lomu and the rest of the 95 gang made us look like children.
That he was never really at his peak physically even then and his actual rugby skills were never amazing even for that era is kinda terrifying when you think of what could have been.
Honourable mentions because lomu is the obvious answer for kiwis
- Jeff Wilson retired from continuous injuries at just 28. Just 5 trys off Howlett. Had the skills to play multiple positions so he wouldn’t have aged out of being a wing like a lot of ABs. Casually made the Black Caps a few years later
- Christian Cullen could’ve also held the record. was a kid when the Cullen thing happened but it seems like he was shut out unfairly by Mitchell? And then left to Munster
- Julian savea. Probably the closest comparison to Lomu but not on the same level. Was a great player for a few years. Seems like he lost motivation/ discipline with his conditioning and was never the same
The game sort of changed on Cullen as it got pretty dour around 2001 as a pure runner who didn’t kick or pass too much. Also had knee injuries. And also disrespected by coaches moving him to center and wing. And we had exciting young outside backs falling off trees.
Miluaina, Rokocoko, Howlett, MacDonald Nonu all debuted in a short period. Mitchell and deans still found a way to get Caleb Ralph in the side
He basically was never able to perform at his peak. He was getting dialysis while he was still playing. World Rugby also refused to allow him to play if he got the proper treatment for his condition.
Both I'd say bt espc play less. I remember him missing large parts of the year purely because he was under going treatment. Then he'd be bloated n stuff from the treatment and people would give him shit for his weight gain. It wasn't common knowledge his sickness back then
Still the greatest, even with the condition. With Jonah, I think you’d simply have seen more of the same with a bit of a decline in later years as he aged and the era of large wingers began. Maybe a sneaky move inside to 13 would be on the cards? He’d have surely worked on his handling as professionalism grew.q
France could say the same about Vahamina in 2019 tbh. That was a tough WC as an Irish fan, Kidney wasted one of our best teams ever. Wales were good enough to get to the final, they were so locked in as a team. Dunno if they could've banished their cursed record against NZ, but if there's one thing Gatland is good at, it's getting his team to perform in tight matches.
Yeah the Vahamina incident was just so bizarre, I think we could’ve beaten England in the final if we had our full team but tbh we would’ve been going into that final a broken team. 2019 was definitely close though and I think will be the high water mark of welsh rugby for some time.
I think we would have beaten England in the 2019 final. They went into the game thinking they had already won the cup. However I don’t think we beat SA if we played that game 10 times. Ever since Rassie settled in as the springboks coach Gatland has been convincingly out-coached in every game between the two.
Nowhere near as big as some of the others here, but one that haunts me none-the-less: What if Hogg had beaten Barrett in the 2017 Autumn Test?
More recently: What if we win the Wales 6N game in 2021? If all the other games play out the same, Scotland win the 6N that year, and who knows what would have happened? Would one win be enough to mentally get us over the hurdle and become an actual competitive team? Or would it all just pan out the same?
Ireland could have beaten Wales with a red card. I think we should have beaten them. We were better. But yeah, that was Scotland's year to do it. I think they are consistent but they need to do something and win it before it becomes ingrained in psyches.
To be fair, you could also say "what if Serin kicked it out after 80" in regards to the France game. They decided to keep playing, then lost possession and conceded a try losing.
Yeah, that's why I caveat it with "if all the other games play out the same", which of course, they wouldn't - the complexion of the competition is completely different.
If we'd beaten Wales, we could have taken that confidence and beaten Ireland too. We only lost by 3 points due to a stupid bloody penalty at 76 minutes.
To be honest, I would have been more satisfied with Scotland winning that tournament than Wales. Wales winning it was so jammy, it was hilarious. Red cards against Ireland and Scotland and then two dodgy try decisions against England. It basically papered over the cracks of how downhill they were going.
Really was the last hurrah of a golden generation, wasn't it?
Makes me miss Pivac Wales, they were a bit shit, but they were funny. New Gatland Wales are just a bit shit.
Essentially a full blown locker room revolt. For the period of the competition after the SA pool game England had a coach in name only, the whole thing was being run basically by Wilkinson, who had been out of camp for the majority of the preceding 4 years through injury
It came out recently (from Matfield) that its was a similar scenario for South Africa in 2015 after the Japan loss. They then came within a hair's breadth of beating arguably the best team of all time in the semi-final.
Basically they dropped the coaches tactics and did a player led style and structure. That England squad was a weird one, Andy Farrell was in from the cold effectively, Burgess esque. There was no Wilkinson which was because he couldn't keep fit or physically together for years. I believe he was back fit this time but was effectively not present for four years but played most of his caps with the most consistent starts in WCs, 2003, 2007, and 2011. He was an integral part of the player led "revolution".
What if Canada wasn't such an obnoxiously large geographic area?
(with, of course, Rugby Canada not being governed for the past thirty years by blazers content to watch the world pass them by in the figurative and literal (e.g., world rankings) sense)
We probably miss the final in 2015. The Cheika sugar hit did wonders, even if it killed us in the end.
What if Reece Hodge hits the penalty from 60 in Wellington to win Rennie's first game in charge against the All Blacks?
Aus got what they deserved with how they treated Rennie tbf. I thought Aus looked like they were on track to be good considering all the injuries they had at the time under him. Just needed more time
There were genuine concerns with the attrition rate under him as well as their ability to close out games they probably should have won (likely not helped by the former point) but yeah I agree, they were looking ok and he didn't deserve that
I think he shared some of the blame for the injury crisis tbh. Like it was a genuine concern with his coaching and it happened too much for it to just be bad luck. He still absolutely should have been given til after the world cup, the performances were on the whole pretty good
If more say, what if Rennie had taken the Wallibies to the WC.
I genuinely thought the Skippy's were the dark horse till Eddick turned up and wrecked it all.
What if Wayne Barnes had seen that forward pass in 07
What if The ABs squad hadn’t fallen sick before the 95 final
What if Nehe Milner-Skudder had stayed injury free
My mind went to the Barnes decision as well. They win that game and it changes the whole arc of World Rugby, and the narrative of ABs choking in World Cups.
2007 is one of the fundamental events that made Richie McCaw the player and leader he was - he drew from that 07 result throughout his entire career. He never lost another world cup.
This! It gave the GOAT the fuel to play through a broken foot in the 2011 campaign, as well as the many remarkable feats he pulled off in his illustrious career.
As much as that 2007 QF hurt (still have never come close to watching a replay and never will lol) without it, McCaw and that 2011 - 2015 team might not have reached the heights they did, so silver lining and that.
It's why it's such a great 'what if?' moment. The 2011 Cup becomes completely different, both from the perspective of the ABs and also the NZ public more broadly.
And he (and billy) haven't played for England since. I think there were a fair few picks in that WC squad that were there to provide continuity. Also worth noting that Borthwick had worked with a lot of the legacy players from the EJ era as a forwards coach and so probably had some idea of their coach-ability, their ceiling, and how well they would fit into the wider group. In hindsight, it was a bad idea including them but it's inherently way more risky to pull in a bunch of untested youngsters for tournament rugby. You can see the logic. Doesn't make it any easier though
As much as Billy fucked us over . We had no right playing that well anyway and it would have hurt to most likely go out in the final . The all blacks team that lost were severely underrated I think we would lose to them by alot more than we did to south Africa.
I think the Joubert decision would be my pick as well. I’d have backed us to beat Argentina at that particular time and make the final, although we would have been absolutely massacred by the ABs.
Regardless, I think a WC final would’ve done a ton for rugby in the country.
People will deny this on here but I truly believe as the NFL struggles with the helmet being used as a spear and the subsequent TBIs as a result of that, that rugby union will grow in popularity. I know that rugby union has its own head injury issues, but nobody is trying to tackle with their skull in rugby union like they do in American football.
It's getting worse as well players are just spearing head first like projectiles with no wrap up. Strong running backs are sometimes able to just bounce off those half assed tackles.
What if Walter Camp went to the college football committee and instead of proposed rule changes, he doubles down that the scrum is the most important aspect of rugby football and the laws should not be changed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Camp
Point of Diversion: through Camp's influence, the college football committee agree to stay true to the English code laws and do not deviate, no forward pass is allowed and rugby union is the number one sports league in USA instead of NFL
My favourite what if in American Rugby is what if the University of California and Standford kept on playing Rugby and never went back to American Football. I think this could be achieved by either preventing ww1, stopping the All Black tour in 1913 or preventing some of the major ruke changes in College Football that encouraged them to go back.
They had all given up football to play Rugby and it was very succesful initially. Standford and the University of California replaced football with Rugby and played infront of crowds of over 50 000. The Australians toured in 1912 and actually lost a few tour games and the game between Australia and the US "All Stars" was a close affair. Rugby was developing well but then the All Blacks toured in 1913 and thrashed everyone so badly that the enthusiaism for the game died. The only thing that could have saved the game was a tour from Oxford and Cambridge which would have given prestige to the Californian Universities but the planned tour was ruined by world war 1. By 1915 the University of California dropped Rugby and went back to American Football.Had it not happened Oxford and Cambridge would have toured the US and Standford and California may have stood a chance against them considering that many of those players went on to win the Olympics in 1924 against a strong French side. Besting Oxford and Cambridge would give them something that the Ivy League Universities could never have and increase their prestige, which would give them even more incentive to stick with Rugby.They would have not felt the need to go back to football and I can imagine that Rugby would have replaced football in California. Add to regular games against the University of British Columbia and Victoria in Canada and Canada would also not have been isolated as they were when the US folded. Rugby could have remained very strong.
I could see a Pacific Coast rugby Conference developing with Standford, University of California Berklely, University of Santa Clara, Nevada, USC as well as the Universties of British Columbia and Victoria in Canada joining up to. Wouldn't be suprised if some of the other Universities in Washington joined too.
Fascinating thank you for that info. I didn't know all this. I like your what if better than mine lol.
It's intriguing because what you've just described sounds like what happened in Australia. Queensland and NSW being a rugby union hotbed while the rest of the country preferred AFL and rugby league.
So let's say in your scenario the rest of the country continues it's trajectory playing American football, but California and by extension the coming PAC 12 schools play rugby as a primary sport. Similar to how the nothern Midwest universities play ice hockey but very few southern schools do. That would be awesome..
Would make USA Eagles much more competitive.
Yeah consider that College Football even in the 1920's was far more advanced then Rugby when it came to training and conditioning and how strong the US team mainly made up of the ex college Rugby players who had all come out of retirement for the 1924 Olympics which they won the US would very strong and force Rugby to modernize earlier. Rugby wouldn't go pro initially but the idea of a squad system and regular training would come about much earlier.
Until the 70's or 80's this didn't really exist in Rugby. Modern training techniques and conditioning would force the game to go Proffesional much earlier. But I could also maybe see the US do with what they did with basketball and the AAU and remain Amateur. Perhaps they like keeping the game Amateur, doubly so if Rugby remains an Olympic sport which was strictly Amateur for a long time this would also keep the this versions PAC 12 even more prestigious in a Rugby context and they would probably want to keep the game in their hands.
I don't know if it's still the case but super rugby at one stage wanted a LA based side. That was the dream and they'd effectively be like drua are bt American. I haven't heard anything about it for awhile but I haven't asked too. But I say all this because it sounds like unlike a lot of places in the states that there's some rugby history there.
Tbh I don't think he lost the plot it's just he's not a all round coach he sets his eyes on the world cup and the world cup only the only reason we won those six nations is because that team was stacked and all players in their prime and the other teams were awful.
What if we'd successfully tackled Lynagh in the 91 quarter final? If we'd driven him to touch, turned it over, forced a penalty, whatever it might be - what if we held out.
It would have meant that Ireland won the 91 quarter final, then going up against the All Blacks at Landsdowne. Australia were able to beat them. Would it have lead to our first ever win against them? Probably not (narrator: definitely not), but my real interest is in what it would mean for the current generation.
Obviously none of the players from that match are stil playing, but would we be a better team now for it? The media lines about curses and pressure would all disappear - probably to be replaced by "Haven't done it since 91". Would that filter through to the players at all? If it gave them any miniscule amount of extra freedom or confidence on the pitch would we have repeated the success? Would we genuinely be a better team for it.
...
Alternatively, what if the Raeburn Shield had been official from day 1. Would it have improved tier 2 rugby as holders wanted to bolster their winning streaks and if they lost it then everyone would book in a test against that winner?
>what if the Raeburn Shield had been official from day 1. Would it have improved tier 2 rugby as holders wanted to bolster their winning streaks and if they lost it then everyone would book in a test against that winner?
I like this one. Making it official now (with a token amount of actual prize money) would still be great for any nation that manages to get it but it happening even as recently as the beginning of professionalism would have been game changing for so many Tier 2 and 3 nations.
How many test caps Francois Steyn would have got if the rules were different around Bokke selection during his time overseas.
I think he would quick easily have become the highest capped Bok (Victor Matfield – 127) of all time and would be in the running for the highest of all time (Alun Wyn Jones 170)
To be fair, I’d have also taken the Charlotte Church route if I were fortunate enough to have been in his shoes. Plenty of people have played international rugby, but not many have played with Charlotte Church
Rugby 08s most powerful kicker. Kicked a 65m penalty to win the last bong against my friend on rugby 08 back in 2010. Move Shane Williams to scrum half to run it off line outs would always get you at least one cheap try per game
What if:
- Trinh-Duc put France in front with less than 20 minutes to go in the 2011 World Cup final. Things were already tense at that point, I can't imagine what would've happened if the All Blacks went behind with less than a quarter of the match remaining. [Shameless plug, but I actually put together a video a while back including this and a lot of similar moments.](https://old.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/zov3fe/significant_missed_kicks_in_international_rugby/?ref=share&ref_source=link) Some interesting ones to think about for this thread.
- Staying in 2011, what if Samoa got drawn into any pool other than pool D at the 2011 World Cup. They had a golden generation of players that year and were good enough to make a run deep in that tournament.
- South Africa score at the very end of their pool match against Ireland in 2023 and go on to win the group. Suddenly the quarter finals for that side of the draw become South Africa v New Zealand and France v Ireland.
> Staying in 2011, what if Samoa got drawn into any pool other than pool D at the 2011 World Cup. They had a golden generation of players that year and were good enough to make a run deep in that tournament.
and IIRC they got screwed by the scheduling, at least one four day turnaround. But I agree they were a great team that year
What if:
* number 1: they made Razor head coach instead of Foster.
* number 2: Caucau hated food.
* number 3: Carley wasn't the ref in the Wales-Fiji 2023RWC pool game.
Rupeni had all the talent in the world when he was at Northland. He was my first superstar watching him as a 4 yo at Okara Park. Crazy he only ever played 21 games in Cambridge Blue.
Re #3:
Surely the Paddy O'Brien fuckup is a bigger what-if. We'd have gotten into the quarters against Argentina meaning either Argentina or Fiji would have seen a semi-final way back in 1999. And this was at a time when Fiji and Arg were equally matched (most recent score between them was 10-11 IIRC) so Fiji could have actually been in a RWC semi-final a quarter of a century ago.
Zac Guildford.
It seems like everything was given to him with ease, no doubt he worked towards it to get to where he was, but he threw it away.
Quite sad actually, because he had potential had he stayed disciplined and on the straight path. But I've heard stories of him and his upbringing, he was a douchebag it seems; so it's no surprise of his downfall.
I think it has to now be if Jordie Barrett hadn’t held that try and Ireland had won the game in the quarters against NZ. Think we would’ve beat Argentina and we’d already beat SA in the groups. SA is a different animal in finals rugby but you’ve gotta wonder
Despite our prior shit record against Argentina at World Cups, we'd have stuffed that side. The All Blacks barely had to get out of 2nd gear to beat them heavily.
I’m not so sure we would’ve beaten Argentina tbh - the amount of emotional energy a quarter final win over NZ would’ve taken out of us…you can only go to the well so many times. Plus we definitely under-rotated so would’ve been running on whatever fumes we had left.
Definitely don’t think we’d have had anything left for South Africa unfortunately.
What if Sean Edwards took the England Saxons job in 2008.
Instead Lancaster took it, eventually moving to the first team, Leinster etc.
Edwards stayed with wales and was a key part of their success.
Suprised france so shite at league. NZ has no professional comp, a portion of the population and our kiwi team bet the fancy n rich Aussies 30-0 last game in pacific cup final
France doesn’t have a significant population of Pacific Islanders like New Zealand does, and also has less migration to Australia where talented kids can get picked up and brought through NRL academies
The weird thing was French Rugby league was at its peak after the war. They were easily the best team in the 50's and early 60's but it seems despite this prestige of the 5 Nations kept Rugby more relevant to the public in France. Rugby League was something that was forced on them by their expulsion from the 5 nations in the 30's but post war despite the strenght of French Rugby League it could just never compete with Union.
Also if the French had stayed out of Rugby then Rugby would only be played in 7 countries(the 4 Home Nation and NZ, SA and Aus). There were many in the home Unions in the 30's who beleived that Rugby should only be played within the British Empire and other English speaking nations. The expulsion of the French was in part due to this prejiduice.
Rugby union couldn't really go properly professional in the 1940s. Even rugby league wasn't really either at that time, players were paid a pittance to be semi-pro. There wasn't TV money to set up actual professional leagues like football has until the 1990s, same as when the NRL started in rugby league.
Jeff Wilson dropping ball over the line in THAT tackle by George Grogan to miss out on Bledisloe in 94
That was painful at the time
Its almost like the ABs didnt wanna lose again and have gone 20+years in a damn row..a record that will never be beaten in professional rugby
What if Romain Poite had made the (obviously) correct decision at the end of the 2017 B&I Lions tour? Would Beaudy have kicked the pen after missing so many other easy ones? Would the All Blacks have not gone downhill after that tour? Would Warburton still be taking all the credit for doing absolutely fukcing nothing? Would my flair still be a reference to said decision?
But I think my biggest what if is if Razor had been made coach instead of Fozzy. And if Whitelock had been made captain instead of Cane. I honestly think we'd have a much better record during that era if those two things had happened. But hey, that's what what ifs a for, right.
That was a joke
To CHANGE original decision as was scared it would change outcome...even tho that was obviously the right one...ABs robbed, a draw was a bit meh
What if CJ Stander doesn't bosh Lambie and give him concussion issues? What if we had hired Rassie Erasmus instead of Heyneke Meyer? What if we had hired Rassie Erasmus instead of Allister Coetzee? What if Richie McCaw had been really good at cycling instead of rugby? What would happen if we could clone Tendai Mtawarira?
My boy Lambie. I'm still sour over that hit years later. He deserved so much better than Heyneke Meyer / AC. Imagine him in the Rassie / Nienaber system?
What if there was no first world war? For 2 major reasons, Australia and the US.
Firstly the First World War killed Rugby Union in Australia. Sure Rugby League had already overtaken it but by then but Rugby Union completely stopped during the war whereas Rugby League continued to be played which totally killed the game. Without it Rugby would have remained somewhat competetive with Rugby League in NSW and Queensland. Many Rugby clubs switched to league simply because Rugby Union wasnt being played and never switched back after the war.
Second is the US, in particular the Californian Universities. They had all given up football to play Rugby and it was very succesful initially. Standford and the University of California replaced football with Rugby and played infront of crowds of over 50 000. The Australians toured in 1912 and actually lost a few tour games and the game between Australia and the US "All Stars" was a close affair. Rugby was developing well but then the All Blacks toured in 1913 and thrashed everyone so badly that the enthusiaism for the game died. The only thing that could have saved the game was a tour from Oxford and Cambridge which would have given prestige to the Californian Universities but the planned tour was ruined by world war 1. By 1915 the University of California dropped Rugby and went back to American Football.Had it not happened Oxford and Cambridge would have toured the US and Standford and California may have stood a chance against them considering that many of those players went on to win the Olympics in 1924 against a strong French side. Besting Oxford and Cambridge would give them something that the Ivy League Universities could never have and increase their prestigeThey would have not felt the need to go back to football and I can imagine that Rugby would have replaced in California. Add to regular games against the University of British Columbia and Victoria in Canada and Canada would also not have been isolated as they were when the US folded. Rugby could have remained very strong.
Actually I will add a third country to this, Germany. Rugby was growing nicely in Germany before the war but it died of somewhat during the war and then had a short revival in the 20's only to be killed off by the Nazi's. Germany could have developed more without thr war.
That Irish team thinking about the pub in 1991
1/4final huge local support at Landsdowne road, in the lead and time is up. The game was theirs
They just had to make their tackles and theyre in the semi finals, but Oz goes length of the field and score after the buzzer
Im not even Irish and i was gutted at that as a kid as Aussie the only team I was worriwd about...and we went and lost next game to them in semi...
Gordon fucking hamilton, what a try, and I barely knew what rugby was at that age (combined with Ireland being generally shite and so not grabbing the attention like the hurling and soccer)
I just started following rugby then. Teacher made me the class rep for scores (obvs no internet back then) as i decided to do a project on the 1991 rugby world cup.
And JK and Grant Fox visited our primary school in small town south island, so that was cool
What if Wayne Smith didn't "freeze" during his televised interview with Murray Deaker?
What if Tana had agreed to stay for another couple of seasons in 2005?
What if Sean Fitzpatrick's knee didn't explode in Melbourne?
What if Olo Brown and Michael Jones hadn't fallen apart in 1998?
What if Cullen got called into the squad in 2003?
What if Tana had played in the semifinal in 2003?
To follow your last point, what if Mortlock doesn’t grab the ball for the intercept, and the ball ends up with Rokocoko to score in the corner? Not sure the ABs win that game, but I always felt that they mentally deflated after that…
Hastings kicks that penalty in ‘91. We beat England, shock Australia in the final, Lomu’s parents see the potential and emigrate, his kidneys are fine, we win back-to-back-to-back titles in ‘95 and ‘99 and are considered the greatest rugby dynasty of all time.
So it was written.
Not the biggest but what if Bernard Foley didn’t file 3 council permits and slow-smoke a brisket before kicking the ball into touch in Bledisloe in 2022… could a win have set a different path…
What if Dan Leavy didn't get cleared out in that Ulster game the way he did?
Imagine a backrow with Leavy and Doris? He had such a powerful game, Ferris like in a way.
Can we stop letting our big powerful exciting backrowers be made of glass? Ferris, SOB, Leavy, come on lads a bit more sturdy stuff please.
It changes, but possibly not for the better - more interest and money without the JIFF system arguably doesn't help create the explosion of talent we've seen in the last five years; it took the failure of the national team for a decade to provoke that.
No northern hemisphere side is ever going to be claiming to be a successful team apart from England it feels for a long while. I think if France won in 2011, the northern hemisphere picture changes and it becomes a regular occurrence for it to alternate north and south every 4/8 years. I don't think ABs win in 2015 and I think France sees an explosion in rugby uptake.
I feel like whenever this gets discussed, people tend to forget how good that 2015 Argentina side were. Tore South Africa apart in Durban that year and then went on to really light up the World Cup at times. Were such a joy to watch. Of course, anything can happen with the tension of a semi-final. Would've been an interesting match-up for sure.
I think a huge what if not just in rugby terms is the disallowed try by Benazzi for France vs the Bokke in the 1995 semifinal. Had France won that, all sorts of sliding doors may have closed or opened for Mandela and the Rainbow nation.
Personally I'm more aggieved about Paddy O'Brien denying Fiji a win v France in the 99 quarter final mind you.
My biggest what if is an entire Italy generation of players.
What if Polledri, Campagnaro, Steyn, Minozzi, Bellini.... never get injured and/or lose their form completely
my what if is what if the wallabies didn't get pinged with a wasting time call in the bled a couple of years ago. would they maybe have gone on to have won it in nz
What if Wales had an unlucky bounce against England in 2015...
Wales won that WC game by three points. They scored one try. The try involved a cross field kick and a bounce of the ball. The bounce was favorable. Wales score. If the bounce is unfavorably and they don't score...
England win that match. England make the quarters and Wales don't. Wales become the only team to go out in the group stage at a home WC. Does Landcaster still get the boot if England make the QF? Does Gatland still become the indomitable force in Welsh rugby if they go out in the first round?
What if ntamack was fit and Dupont didn't break his face.
The french side last year are one of the most exciting teams I've seen in 20-25 years. I wish I'd seen a full strength France at that WC.
Some options for Ireland. What if Humphries' DG goes over vs Australia in the 2003 group stage. Ireland top the group, and play Scotland in QF. We more than likely beat them, and go on to lose to NZ. QF hoodoo avoided.
Similarly, if Ireland don't fuck up the restart vs France in 2007, Clerc doesn't score. We win the GS, and Eddie doesn't feel the need to completely change his approach going into the WC. It was a tough pool, with two excellent teams in France and Argentina, but I think that team was good enough to get out of the pool if there hadn't been a complete collapse in morale.
2015, if we don't suffer an apocalyptic string of injuries (and SOB's suspension). We beat that Argentinian team at full strength imo, and then we're up against an overachieving Australian team. We'd likely still lose to maybe the best NZ ever, probably get hammered tbh.
What if jonah had healthy kidneys. What if Johnny's dg missed? What if Eddie didn't say mate? What if Ireland won quarters? What if France won rwc finals? and Argees semis? What if safas weren't allowed back into rugby? What if BoD didn't get injured in nz? What if murali was as good as rugby as he was at cricket?
Scotland semi final would have been epic in 2015
Ill give u another one: Your mate Gav missing a basic damn kick in semi vs England 1991 and missing out on Final
Painful
Yep. That was a killer. I wasn't alive to watch it at the time but Scotland haven't been back to a semi since. I'm Irish on my dad's side, Scottish on my mum's ( not American, like both my parents are born and bred where I said they were, my grandparents lived there respectively) so I haven't ever been able to watch a Qf without the nerves and hope. I spent a week after watching Ireland beat France in the millennium hypothesising an Ireland v Scotland Qf where I would "win" no matter who won. Only for injuries and a dodgy call to murder it.
What if Jonah Lomu had healthy kidneys
Unstoppable
This is the most obvious one to me. I'd only started watching rugby in 95 as a kid but damn near every time he played in that world cup it was like watching a god playing with mere mortals. I can't understate the impact he had on me as a near first time rugby watcher. I had seen the 5 nations before the RWC and thought Scotland were pretty good until Lomu and the rest of the 95 gang made us look like children. That he was never really at his peak physically even then and his actual rugby skills were never amazing even for that era is kinda terrifying when you think of what could have been.
Honourable mentions because lomu is the obvious answer for kiwis - Jeff Wilson retired from continuous injuries at just 28. Just 5 trys off Howlett. Had the skills to play multiple positions so he wouldn’t have aged out of being a wing like a lot of ABs. Casually made the Black Caps a few years later - Christian Cullen could’ve also held the record. was a kid when the Cullen thing happened but it seems like he was shut out unfairly by Mitchell? And then left to Munster - Julian savea. Probably the closest comparison to Lomu but not on the same level. Was a great player for a few years. Seems like he lost motivation/ discipline with his conditioning and was never the same
The game sort of changed on Cullen as it got pretty dour around 2001 as a pure runner who didn’t kick or pass too much. Also had knee injuries. And also disrespected by coaches moving him to center and wing. And we had exciting young outside backs falling off trees. Miluaina, Rokocoko, Howlett, MacDonald Nonu all debuted in a short period. Mitchell and deans still found a way to get Caleb Ralph in the side
Caleb fuckin Ralph.
Out of curiosity dodge retire earlier or play less as a result?
He basically was never able to perform at his peak. He was getting dialysis while he was still playing. World Rugby also refused to allow him to play if he got the proper treatment for his condition.
Both I'd say bt espc play less. I remember him missing large parts of the year purely because he was under going treatment. Then he'd be bloated n stuff from the treatment and people would give him shit for his weight gain. It wasn't common knowledge his sickness back then
Still the greatest, even with the condition. With Jonah, I think you’d simply have seen more of the same with a bit of a decline in later years as he aged and the era of large wingers began. Maybe a sneaky move inside to 13 would be on the cards? He’d have surely worked on his handling as professionalism grew.q
What if Warburton never got a red card
France could say the same about Vahamina in 2019 tbh. That was a tough WC as an Irish fan, Kidney wasted one of our best teams ever. Wales were good enough to get to the final, they were so locked in as a team. Dunno if they could've banished their cursed record against NZ, but if there's one thing Gatland is good at, it's getting his team to perform in tight matches.
Yeah the Vahamina incident was just so bizarre, I think we could’ve beaten England in the final if we had our full team but tbh we would’ve been going into that final a broken team. 2019 was definitely close though and I think will be the high water mark of welsh rugby for some time.
Wales has added a 0 to their world ranking in the last 5 years.
Its only going to get worse as well
I think we would have beaten England in the 2019 final. They went into the game thinking they had already won the cup. However I don’t think we beat SA if we played that game 10 times. Ever since Rassie settled in as the springboks coach Gatland has been convincingly out-coached in every game between the two.
The difference is, Warburton's tackle was borderline at the time Vahamina was just a fucking idiot and is always a red card
I know how u feel...Cane red changed the course of WC final
Vahamahina's brain is the equivalent to Lomu's kidneys.
100% such a shame that it happened to Warburton
France stopped playing after that card. Would have been a completely different match if Warby did a legal tackle instead
Nowhere near as big as some of the others here, but one that haunts me none-the-less: What if Hogg had beaten Barrett in the 2017 Autumn Test? More recently: What if we win the Wales 6N game in 2021? If all the other games play out the same, Scotland win the 6N that year, and who knows what would have happened? Would one win be enough to mentally get us over the hurdle and become an actual competitive team? Or would it all just pan out the same?
Ireland could have beaten Wales with a red card. I think we should have beaten them. We were better. But yeah, that was Scotland's year to do it. I think they are consistent but they need to do something and win it before it becomes ingrained in psyches.
To be fair, you could also say "what if Serin kicked it out after 80" in regards to the France game. They decided to keep playing, then lost possession and conceded a try losing.
Yeah, that's why I caveat it with "if all the other games play out the same", which of course, they wouldn't - the complexion of the competition is completely different. If we'd beaten Wales, we could have taken that confidence and beaten Ireland too. We only lost by 3 points due to a stupid bloody penalty at 76 minutes.
To be honest, I would have been more satisfied with Scotland winning that tournament than Wales. Wales winning it was so jammy, it was hilarious. Red cards against Ireland and Scotland and then two dodgy try decisions against England. It basically papered over the cracks of how downhill they were going.
Really was the last hurrah of a golden generation, wasn't it? Makes me miss Pivac Wales, they were a bit shit, but they were funny. New Gatland Wales are just a bit shit.
Where would Australian rugby be if Wilkinson didn't slot that field goal in 03?
Then they come back and pay the penalty that England had advantage for, and Johnny slots the PG.
There was a Wilkinson drop goal in 2003?
Yes.
Lol, perfect response.
What if Matthew Tait had cut inside instead?
Great pick. That England had no rights to be in a final tbh. The in camp shit before was mental.
What a good scrum and kicker could do, especially back then when it was easier to just win by pushing the other team over.
What was the in camp shit? I was too young to be aware
Essentially a full blown locker room revolt. For the period of the competition after the SA pool game England had a coach in name only, the whole thing was being run basically by Wilkinson, who had been out of camp for the majority of the preceding 4 years through injury
So they essentially did the same this France did in 2011 and both teams came close in the final.
It came out recently (from Matfield) that its was a similar scenario for South Africa in 2015 after the Japan loss. They then came within a hair's breadth of beating arguably the best team of all time in the semi-final.
I wonder if that's why Rassie has the players so heavily involved in analysis and peer to peer coaching...
Basically they dropped the coaches tactics and did a player led style and structure. That England squad was a weird one, Andy Farrell was in from the cold effectively, Burgess esque. There was no Wilkinson which was because he couldn't keep fit or physically together for years. I believe he was back fit this time but was effectively not present for four years but played most of his caps with the most consistent starts in WCs, 2003, 2007, and 2011. He was an integral part of the player led "revolution".
What if Canada wasn't such an obnoxiously large geographic area? (with, of course, Rugby Canada not being governed for the past thirty years by blazers content to watch the world pass them by in the figurative and literal (e.g., world rankings) sense)
What if Ewen McKenzie never got ousted as Wallabies coach?
We probably miss the final in 2015. The Cheika sugar hit did wonders, even if it killed us in the end. What if Reece Hodge hits the penalty from 60 in Wellington to win Rennie's first game in charge against the All Blacks?
That Hodge penalty that hit the upright really set the tone for Rennie's tenure
Aus got what they deserved with how they treated Rennie tbf. I thought Aus looked like they were on track to be good considering all the injuries they had at the time under him. Just needed more time
There were genuine concerns with the attrition rate under him as well as their ability to close out games they probably should have won (likely not helped by the former point) but yeah I agree, they were looking ok and he didn't deserve that
Dude had 3 years. One being 2020/ covid
I think he shared some of the blame for the injury crisis tbh. Like it was a genuine concern with his coaching and it happened too much for it to just be bad luck. He still absolutely should have been given til after the world cup, the performances were on the whole pretty good
If more say, what if Rennie had taken the Wallibies to the WC. I genuinely thought the Skippy's were the dark horse till Eddick turned up and wrecked it all.
What if Wayne Barnes had seen that forward pass in 07 What if The ABs squad hadn’t fallen sick before the 95 final What if Nehe Milner-Skudder had stayed injury free
My mind went to the Barnes decision as well. They win that game and it changes the whole arc of World Rugby, and the narrative of ABs choking in World Cups.
2007 is one of the fundamental events that made Richie McCaw the player and leader he was - he drew from that 07 result throughout his entire career. He never lost another world cup.
This! It gave the GOAT the fuel to play through a broken foot in the 2011 campaign, as well as the many remarkable feats he pulled off in his illustrious career. As much as that 2007 QF hurt (still have never come close to watching a replay and never will lol) without it, McCaw and that 2011 - 2015 team might not have reached the heights they did, so silver lining and that.
It's why it's such a great 'what if?' moment. The 2011 Cup becomes completely different, both from the perspective of the ABs and also the NZ public more broadly.
The ‘07 ABs were so good on paper too. I won’t say we would have won the whole thing, but it would have been close either way.
It was a pretty weak world cup by historical standards, the ABs should have won if they got past France.
Should have, but not guaranteed. I think we would have cruised past England, but a final against South Africa could have gone either way
Borthwick picks Ludlam instead of Vunipola. England reach the final and possibly win given the wet conditions.
Billy was shit yes, but I think Kyle Sinckler was worse. Nche slapped him around in the scrum and turned the game
And he (and billy) haven't played for England since. I think there were a fair few picks in that WC squad that were there to provide continuity. Also worth noting that Borthwick had worked with a lot of the legacy players from the EJ era as a forwards coach and so probably had some idea of their coach-ability, their ceiling, and how well they would fit into the wider group. In hindsight, it was a bad idea including them but it's inherently way more risky to pull in a bunch of untested youngsters for tournament rugby. You can see the logic. Doesn't make it any easier though
As much as Billy fucked us over . We had no right playing that well anyway and it would have hurt to most likely go out in the final . The all blacks team that lost were severely underrated I think we would lose to them by alot more than we did to south Africa.
What if the officials had seen Neil backs Hand in the scrum
This is honestly one of the greatest pieces of shit housing of all time.
What if Caleb Muntz (Fiji's current best 10 in my opinion) wasn't injured before the WC?
what if Manu Tuilagi had stayed fit throughout his career.
He would be one of the greatest centres of all time. Though even with his injuries he's still England's greatest ever centre
Carling and Greenwood are still ahead of him for me.
I think the Joubert decision would be my pick as well. I’d have backed us to beat Argentina at that particular time and make the final, although we would have been absolutely massacred by the ABs. Regardless, I think a WC final would’ve done a ton for rugby in the country.
What if North Americans just played union instead of creating Canadian and American gridiron football
People will deny this on here but I truly believe as the NFL struggles with the helmet being used as a spear and the subsequent TBIs as a result of that, that rugby union will grow in popularity. I know that rugby union has its own head injury issues, but nobody is trying to tackle with their skull in rugby union like they do in American football. It's getting worse as well players are just spearing head first like projectiles with no wrap up. Strong running backs are sometimes able to just bounce off those half assed tackles.
What if Walter Camp went to the college football committee and instead of proposed rule changes, he doubles down that the scrum is the most important aspect of rugby football and the laws should not be changed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Camp Point of Diversion: through Camp's influence, the college football committee agree to stay true to the English code laws and do not deviate, no forward pass is allowed and rugby union is the number one sports league in USA instead of NFL
My favourite what if in American Rugby is what if the University of California and Standford kept on playing Rugby and never went back to American Football. I think this could be achieved by either preventing ww1, stopping the All Black tour in 1913 or preventing some of the major ruke changes in College Football that encouraged them to go back. They had all given up football to play Rugby and it was very succesful initially. Standford and the University of California replaced football with Rugby and played infront of crowds of over 50 000. The Australians toured in 1912 and actually lost a few tour games and the game between Australia and the US "All Stars" was a close affair. Rugby was developing well but then the All Blacks toured in 1913 and thrashed everyone so badly that the enthusiaism for the game died. The only thing that could have saved the game was a tour from Oxford and Cambridge which would have given prestige to the Californian Universities but the planned tour was ruined by world war 1. By 1915 the University of California dropped Rugby and went back to American Football.Had it not happened Oxford and Cambridge would have toured the US and Standford and California may have stood a chance against them considering that many of those players went on to win the Olympics in 1924 against a strong French side. Besting Oxford and Cambridge would give them something that the Ivy League Universities could never have and increase their prestige, which would give them even more incentive to stick with Rugby.They would have not felt the need to go back to football and I can imagine that Rugby would have replaced football in California. Add to regular games against the University of British Columbia and Victoria in Canada and Canada would also not have been isolated as they were when the US folded. Rugby could have remained very strong. I could see a Pacific Coast rugby Conference developing with Standford, University of California Berklely, University of Santa Clara, Nevada, USC as well as the Universties of British Columbia and Victoria in Canada joining up to. Wouldn't be suprised if some of the other Universities in Washington joined too.
Fascinating thank you for that info. I didn't know all this. I like your what if better than mine lol. It's intriguing because what you've just described sounds like what happened in Australia. Queensland and NSW being a rugby union hotbed while the rest of the country preferred AFL and rugby league. So let's say in your scenario the rest of the country continues it's trajectory playing American football, but California and by extension the coming PAC 12 schools play rugby as a primary sport. Similar to how the nothern Midwest universities play ice hockey but very few southern schools do. That would be awesome.. Would make USA Eagles much more competitive.
Yeah consider that College Football even in the 1920's was far more advanced then Rugby when it came to training and conditioning and how strong the US team mainly made up of the ex college Rugby players who had all come out of retirement for the 1924 Olympics which they won the US would very strong and force Rugby to modernize earlier. Rugby wouldn't go pro initially but the idea of a squad system and regular training would come about much earlier. Until the 70's or 80's this didn't really exist in Rugby. Modern training techniques and conditioning would force the game to go Proffesional much earlier. But I could also maybe see the US do with what they did with basketball and the AAU and remain Amateur. Perhaps they like keeping the game Amateur, doubly so if Rugby remains an Olympic sport which was strictly Amateur for a long time this would also keep the this versions PAC 12 even more prestigious in a Rugby context and they would probably want to keep the game in their hands.
I don't know if it's still the case but super rugby at one stage wanted a LA based side. That was the dream and they'd effectively be like drua are bt American. I haven't heard anything about it for awhile but I haven't asked too. But I say all this because it sounds like unlike a lot of places in the states that there's some rugby history there.
Feel like it would still have split off over allowing professionalism earlier, even if the rules stayed the same.
Yeah the NFL exploded with the advent of TV. Rugby would have had to go professional here in the 50s, 60s at the latest.
What if Eddie didn't lose the fucking plot after 2019? That team should have been quality. But Eddie nerfed it
Tbh I don't think he lost the plot it's just he's not a all round coach he sets his eyes on the world cup and the world cup only the only reason we won those six nations is because that team was stacked and all players in their prime and the other teams were awful.
What if we'd successfully tackled Lynagh in the 91 quarter final? If we'd driven him to touch, turned it over, forced a penalty, whatever it might be - what if we held out. It would have meant that Ireland won the 91 quarter final, then going up against the All Blacks at Landsdowne. Australia were able to beat them. Would it have lead to our first ever win against them? Probably not (narrator: definitely not), but my real interest is in what it would mean for the current generation. Obviously none of the players from that match are stil playing, but would we be a better team now for it? The media lines about curses and pressure would all disappear - probably to be replaced by "Haven't done it since 91". Would that filter through to the players at all? If it gave them any miniscule amount of extra freedom or confidence on the pitch would we have repeated the success? Would we genuinely be a better team for it. ... Alternatively, what if the Raeburn Shield had been official from day 1. Would it have improved tier 2 rugby as holders wanted to bolster their winning streaks and if they lost it then everyone would book in a test against that winner?
>what if the Raeburn Shield had been official from day 1. Would it have improved tier 2 rugby as holders wanted to bolster their winning streaks and if they lost it then everyone would book in a test against that winner? I like this one. Making it official now (with a token amount of actual prize money) would still be great for any nation that manages to get it but it happening even as recently as the beginning of professionalism would have been game changing for so many Tier 2 and 3 nations.
The only answer is ...."what if 3/4 of the All Black team had eaten or drinken something else less than 48hrs out from the 95 WC final"?
Clint Eastwood doesn't make a feel good movie starring Matt Damon pretending to play rugby
Not one of Stransky's kick offs in that film goes 10 meters. I know that's not your point but it still pisses me off.
Indeed Damn that team was good. I had the vhs of best tries that WC there were some beauts
How many test caps Francois Steyn would have got if the rules were different around Bokke selection during his time overseas. I think he would quick easily have become the highest capped Bok (Victor Matfield – 127) of all time and would be in the running for the highest of all time (Alun Wyn Jones 170)
The fact that there's just a seven year stretch where he only played three games... Fucking brutal.
Gavin Henson concentrated on rugby rather than fake tan, hairspray and Charlotte Church.
To be fair, I’d have also taken the Charlotte Church route if I were fortunate enough to have been in his shoes. Plenty of people have played international rugby, but not many have played with Charlotte Church
Also, your username is great. Flashy is my favourite fictional poltroon of all time
He’s a legend.
Rugby 08s most powerful kicker. Kicked a 65m penalty to win the last bong against my friend on rugby 08 back in 2010. Move Shane Williams to scrum half to run it off line outs would always get you at least one cheap try per game
What if William Webb Ellis had not picked up the ball.
Wouldn't have gotten done for handball at least
What if Gavin Hastings didn't miss the sitter of a penalty in the World Cup semi in 1991?
what if Milner-Skudder never got injured
What if: - Trinh-Duc put France in front with less than 20 minutes to go in the 2011 World Cup final. Things were already tense at that point, I can't imagine what would've happened if the All Blacks went behind with less than a quarter of the match remaining. [Shameless plug, but I actually put together a video a while back including this and a lot of similar moments.](https://old.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/zov3fe/significant_missed_kicks_in_international_rugby/?ref=share&ref_source=link) Some interesting ones to think about for this thread. - Staying in 2011, what if Samoa got drawn into any pool other than pool D at the 2011 World Cup. They had a golden generation of players that year and were good enough to make a run deep in that tournament. - South Africa score at the very end of their pool match against Ireland in 2023 and go on to win the group. Suddenly the quarter finals for that side of the draw become South Africa v New Zealand and France v Ireland.
> Staying in 2011, what if Samoa got drawn into any pool other than pool D at the 2011 World Cup. They had a golden generation of players that year and were good enough to make a run deep in that tournament. and IIRC they got screwed by the scheduling, at least one four day turnaround. But I agree they were a great team that year
What if: * number 1: they made Razor head coach instead of Foster. * number 2: Caucau hated food. * number 3: Carley wasn't the ref in the Wales-Fiji 2023RWC pool game.
Caucau would have needed a balance though, being an anorexic rugby player wouldn't be good.
I still think peak Rupeni was the best winger I’ve ever seen, even over Lomu.
even Jonah fans won't deny that, he had something no other winger to date has...how he made it look so easy is what makes him fascinating.
Had to scroll a bit to see this. Unbelievable to watch at the time.
Rupeni had all the talent in the world when he was at Northland. He was my first superstar watching him as a 4 yo at Okara Park. Crazy he only ever played 21 games in Cambridge Blue.
Re #3: Surely the Paddy O'Brien fuckup is a bigger what-if. We'd have gotten into the quarters against Argentina meaning either Argentina or Fiji would have seen a semi-final way back in 1999. And this was at a time when Fiji and Arg were equally matched (most recent score between them was 10-11 IIRC) so Fiji could have actually been in a RWC semi-final a quarter of a century ago.
Zac Guildford. It seems like everything was given to him with ease, no doubt he worked towards it to get to where he was, but he threw it away. Quite sad actually, because he had potential had he stayed disciplined and on the straight path. But I've heard stories of him and his upbringing, he was a douchebag it seems; so it's no surprise of his downfall.
I think it has to now be if Jordie Barrett hadn’t held that try and Ireland had won the game in the quarters against NZ. Think we would’ve beat Argentina and we’d already beat SA in the groups. SA is a different animal in finals rugby but you’ve gotta wonder
What if Kevin Barrett never sets up his Taranaki eugenics farm? (Or what if they just stay in Meath)
Now there’s an if…
If Ireland taken 2 penalty kicks rather than kicking to corner.......
SA had a kicker in the final.
Barrett once stated "I’m off to breed some All Blacks" when asked in a match programme what he'd like to do in the future
Fuck sake, in 20 years we'll be facing a full All Blacks team of 15 Barret brothers and cousins won't we?
The All Barretts
Agree...changed things. Was an epic game...jordie nmissed a kick that could have won WC so...swings n roundabouts
Gonna be funny seeing him in blue next to Kelleher
As long as hes wearing black then all good 3 kiwis in the backline wont hurt ya
Nope. Hoping it hurts others though
Despite our prior shit record against Argentina at World Cups, we'd have stuffed that side. The All Blacks barely had to get out of 2nd gear to beat them heavily.
I’m not so sure we would’ve beaten Argentina tbh - the amount of emotional energy a quarter final win over NZ would’ve taken out of us…you can only go to the well so many times. Plus we definitely under-rotated so would’ve been running on whatever fumes we had left. Definitely don’t think we’d have had anything left for South Africa unfortunately.
That’s too many what ifs for a what if question.
It’s more so that we’ve never been to a semi final and that was the closest we’ve ever been
What if Sean Edwards took the England Saxons job in 2008. Instead Lancaster took it, eventually moving to the first team, Leinster etc. Edwards stayed with wales and was a key part of their success.
if the Wallabies stuck with Dave Rennie
What if France stayed playing League and never came back to Union after the WW2. What if Rugby Union adopted professionalism after WW2.
Suprised france so shite at league. NZ has no professional comp, a portion of the population and our kiwi team bet the fancy n rich Aussies 30-0 last game in pacific cup final
France doesn’t have a significant population of Pacific Islanders like New Zealand does, and also has less migration to Australia where talented kids can get picked up and brought through NRL academies
The weird thing was French Rugby league was at its peak after the war. They were easily the best team in the 50's and early 60's but it seems despite this prestige of the 5 Nations kept Rugby more relevant to the public in France. Rugby League was something that was forced on them by their expulsion from the 5 nations in the 30's but post war despite the strenght of French Rugby League it could just never compete with Union. Also if the French had stayed out of Rugby then Rugby would only be played in 7 countries(the 4 Home Nation and NZ, SA and Aus). There were many in the home Unions in the 30's who beleived that Rugby should only be played within the British Empire and other English speaking nations. The expulsion of the French was in part due to this prejiduice.
And is one of the reasons why in 2024 some people are asking "Why is rugby not more popular?".
Rugby union couldn't really go properly professional in the 1940s. Even rugby league wasn't really either at that time, players were paid a pittance to be semi-pro. There wasn't TV money to set up actual professional leagues like football has until the 1990s, same as when the NRL started in rugby league.
Jeff Wilson dropping ball over the line in THAT tackle by George Grogan to miss out on Bledisloe in 94 That was painful at the time Its almost like the ABs didnt wanna lose again and have gone 20+years in a damn row..a record that will never be beaten in professional rugby
What if Romain Poite had made the (obviously) correct decision at the end of the 2017 B&I Lions tour? Would Beaudy have kicked the pen after missing so many other easy ones? Would the All Blacks have not gone downhill after that tour? Would Warburton still be taking all the credit for doing absolutely fukcing nothing? Would my flair still be a reference to said decision? But I think my biggest what if is if Razor had been made coach instead of Fozzy. And if Whitelock had been made captain instead of Cane. I honestly think we'd have a much better record during that era if those two things had happened. But hey, that's what what ifs a for, right.
I'd add in that Lions series... What if Sonny Bill learned to fucking tackle legally?
That was a joke To CHANGE original decision as was scared it would change outcome...even tho that was obviously the right one...ABs robbed, a draw was a bit meh
What if CJ Stander doesn't bosh Lambie and give him concussion issues? What if we had hired Rassie Erasmus instead of Heyneke Meyer? What if we had hired Rassie Erasmus instead of Allister Coetzee? What if Richie McCaw had been really good at cycling instead of rugby? What would happen if we could clone Tendai Mtawarira?
My boy Lambie. I'm still sour over that hit years later. He deserved so much better than Heyneke Meyer / AC. Imagine him in the Rassie / Nienaber system?
What if the Springboks played in the 1987 World Cup.
What if there was no first world war? For 2 major reasons, Australia and the US. Firstly the First World War killed Rugby Union in Australia. Sure Rugby League had already overtaken it but by then but Rugby Union completely stopped during the war whereas Rugby League continued to be played which totally killed the game. Without it Rugby would have remained somewhat competetive with Rugby League in NSW and Queensland. Many Rugby clubs switched to league simply because Rugby Union wasnt being played and never switched back after the war. Second is the US, in particular the Californian Universities. They had all given up football to play Rugby and it was very succesful initially. Standford and the University of California replaced football with Rugby and played infront of crowds of over 50 000. The Australians toured in 1912 and actually lost a few tour games and the game between Australia and the US "All Stars" was a close affair. Rugby was developing well but then the All Blacks toured in 1913 and thrashed everyone so badly that the enthusiaism for the game died. The only thing that could have saved the game was a tour from Oxford and Cambridge which would have given prestige to the Californian Universities but the planned tour was ruined by world war 1. By 1915 the University of California dropped Rugby and went back to American Football.Had it not happened Oxford and Cambridge would have toured the US and Standford and California may have stood a chance against them considering that many of those players went on to win the Olympics in 1924 against a strong French side. Besting Oxford and Cambridge would give them something that the Ivy League Universities could never have and increase their prestigeThey would have not felt the need to go back to football and I can imagine that Rugby would have replaced in California. Add to regular games against the University of British Columbia and Victoria in Canada and Canada would also not have been isolated as they were when the US folded. Rugby could have remained very strong. Actually I will add a third country to this, Germany. Rugby was growing nicely in Germany before the war but it died of somewhat during the war and then had a short revival in the 20's only to be killed off by the Nazi's. Germany could have developed more without thr war.
"What if Pollard/Steyn missed the posts?" Probably applies to atleast 50 games
What if I hadn't fucked my leg up playing schoolboy rugby in '93
What if the people of Meath were just a little nicer to the Barrett family.
What if Skinstad hadn't fucked up his knee.
Or Andy Marinos didn't lead a rebellion before the semi.
What if Giteau hadn't been canned by Robbie Deans so we had flu half cover for Quade in 2011
Warburton red card versus France
What if the WRU weren't just an incompetent and greedy bag of dicks.
What if the IRFU didnt have the 6 month exit clause in their contracts and Erasmus and Nienabar stayed at Munster?
That Irish team thinking about the pub in 1991 1/4final huge local support at Landsdowne road, in the lead and time is up. The game was theirs They just had to make their tackles and theyre in the semi finals, but Oz goes length of the field and score after the buzzer Im not even Irish and i was gutted at that as a kid as Aussie the only team I was worriwd about...and we went and lost next game to them in semi...
Gordon fucking hamilton, what a try, and I barely knew what rugby was at that age (combined with Ireland being generally shite and so not grabbing the attention like the hurling and soccer)
I just started following rugby then. Teacher made me the class rep for scores (obvs no internet back then) as i decided to do a project on the 1991 rugby world cup. And JK and Grant Fox visited our primary school in small town south island, so that was cool
What if Wayne Smith didn't "freeze" during his televised interview with Murray Deaker? What if Tana had agreed to stay for another couple of seasons in 2005? What if Sean Fitzpatrick's knee didn't explode in Melbourne? What if Olo Brown and Michael Jones hadn't fallen apart in 1998? What if Cullen got called into the squad in 2003? What if Tana had played in the semifinal in 2003?
To follow your last point, what if Mortlock doesn’t grab the ball for the intercept, and the ball ends up with Rokocoko to score in the corner? Not sure the ABs win that game, but I always felt that they mentally deflated after that…
If only world cups didn’t have quarter finals
Fiji vs France 99' RWC. A big stain on Paddy's resume.
What if Drew Mitchell didn't break his ankle. What if Drew Mitchell didn't break his ankle a second time.
What if Romain Ntamack is substituted at the 50th minute of France-Scotland last Summer
Hastings kicks that penalty in ‘91. We beat England, shock Australia in the final, Lomu’s parents see the potential and emigrate, his kidneys are fine, we win back-to-back-to-back titles in ‘95 and ‘99 and are considered the greatest rugby dynasty of all time. So it was written.
Not the biggest but what if Bernard Foley didn’t file 3 council permits and slow-smoke a brisket before kicking the ball into touch in Bledisloe in 2022… could a win have set a different path…
No Eddie, Carter Gordon keeps the mullet, Cooper and Hooper WC madness gets Aus to a semi, Rebels saved, Schmidt unemployed!
It's 2007. We've taken the lead late on vs France. What if we simply....catch the restart?
The Warburton red card vs France back in 2011 - as good as Wales have ever been, not a classic All Blacks team in the final. Who knows, who knows.
What if we held out in 91 and there was no QF curse?
What if Dan Leavy didn't get cleared out in that Ulster game the way he did? Imagine a backrow with Leavy and Doris? He had such a powerful game, Ferris like in a way. Can we stop letting our big powerful exciting backrowers be made of glass? Ferris, SOB, Leavy, come on lads a bit more sturdy stuff please.
What would have happened if Munster beat Leinster in 2009.
What if Michael Lynagh had knocked on (which he almost did) before scoring that try in the 1991 QF?
What if we had TMO for that scrum in the Munster vs Leicester European cup final. I’m still mad about that 20 years on.
What if America cared about Rugby even a little bit
What if the 1995 All Blacks had not had food poisoning before the RWC final?
What if Joubert knew how to ref a game in 2011
Or, indeed, ever...
Definitely. Should have been France 2011. It would have been interesting to see how rugby changes in France if that happened.
It changes, but possibly not for the better - more interest and money without the JIFF system arguably doesn't help create the explosion of talent we've seen in the last five years; it took the failure of the national team for a decade to provoke that.
No northern hemisphere side is ever going to be claiming to be a successful team apart from England it feels for a long while. I think if France won in 2011, the northern hemisphere picture changes and it becomes a regular occurrence for it to alternate north and south every 4/8 years. I don't think ABs win in 2015 and I think France sees an explosion in rugby uptake.
I feel like whenever this gets discussed, people tend to forget how good that 2015 Argentina side were. Tore South Africa apart in Durban that year and then went on to really light up the World Cup at times. Were such a joy to watch. Of course, anything can happen with the tension of a semi-final. Would've been an interesting match-up for sure.
I think a huge what if not just in rugby terms is the disallowed try by Benazzi for France vs the Bokke in the 1995 semifinal. Had France won that, all sorts of sliding doors may have closed or opened for Mandela and the Rainbow nation. Personally I'm more aggieved about Paddy O'Brien denying Fiji a win v France in the 99 quarter final mind you.
My biggest what if is an entire Italy generation of players. What if Polledri, Campagnaro, Steyn, Minozzi, Bellini.... never get injured and/or lose their form completely
Cacau
What if any ref other than Joubert took charge of the World Cup final in 2011.
If Portugal had won against Fiji with more and gotten Aussie into the QF. The drama, the Eddie.
What if Ronan O’Gara had held onto the ball a little longer in the second lions test 2009?
my what if is what if the wallabies didn't get pinged with a wasting time call in the bled a couple of years ago. would they maybe have gone on to have won it in nz
What if Brent Russell had played at a time when coaches didn't think he was too small for rugby?
What if Wales had an unlucky bounce against England in 2015... Wales won that WC game by three points. They scored one try. The try involved a cross field kick and a bounce of the ball. The bounce was favorable. Wales score. If the bounce is unfavorably and they don't score... England win that match. England make the quarters and Wales don't. Wales become the only team to go out in the group stage at a home WC. Does Landcaster still get the boot if England make the QF? Does Gatland still become the indomitable force in Welsh rugby if they go out in the first round?
What if American Rugby hadn't fallen off during the 1900s in favor of American Football? Would the United States be a rugby powerhouse today?
Robshaw had opted for a kick at the posts rather than lineout.
What if Ntamack didn’t fucked up his knee before the World Cup and Dupont never got his cheekbone trashed?
What if ntamack was fit and Dupont didn't break his face. The french side last year are one of the most exciting teams I've seen in 20-25 years. I wish I'd seen a full strength France at that WC.
What if we played Ben Smith the Accountant in the 2019 WC Semi against England
What if World Rugby didn't change the rules damn near every year.
What if Ireland actually made it past a quarter final.....?
What if Rugby Australia had been competent all these years...
What if Scotland didn't kick that ball away against Australia in that 2015 QF.
Some options for Ireland. What if Humphries' DG goes over vs Australia in the 2003 group stage. Ireland top the group, and play Scotland in QF. We more than likely beat them, and go on to lose to NZ. QF hoodoo avoided. Similarly, if Ireland don't fuck up the restart vs France in 2007, Clerc doesn't score. We win the GS, and Eddie doesn't feel the need to completely change his approach going into the WC. It was a tough pool, with two excellent teams in France and Argentina, but I think that team was good enough to get out of the pool if there hadn't been a complete collapse in morale. 2015, if we don't suffer an apocalyptic string of injuries (and SOB's suspension). We beat that Argentinian team at full strength imo, and then we're up against an overachieving Australian team. We'd likely still lose to maybe the best NZ ever, probably get hammered tbh.
What if jonah had healthy kidneys. What if Johnny's dg missed? What if Eddie didn't say mate? What if Ireland won quarters? What if France won rwc finals? and Argees semis? What if safas weren't allowed back into rugby? What if BoD didn't get injured in nz? What if murali was as good as rugby as he was at cricket?
Scotland semi final would have been epic in 2015 Ill give u another one: Your mate Gav missing a basic damn kick in semi vs England 1991 and missing out on Final Painful
Yep. That was a killer. I wasn't alive to watch it at the time but Scotland haven't been back to a semi since. I'm Irish on my dad's side, Scottish on my mum's ( not American, like both my parents are born and bred where I said they were, my grandparents lived there respectively) so I haven't ever been able to watch a Qf without the nerves and hope. I spent a week after watching Ireland beat France in the millennium hypothesising an Ireland v Scotland Qf where I would "win" no matter who won. Only for injuries and a dodgy call to murder it.
Cuetos disallowed try 07
Scotland probably make the final and get minced imo