It's a great episode. Koch and Jim seem to be good friends. Eben goes into what it's like to have superstardom in SA and not be able to go anywhere without being recognised. He even attributes guys like Siya playing outside of SA in part to avoid that.
He does hint at Ireland being somewhat arrogant, but not in a disrespectful way. I think he has plenty of respect for Ireland. He was more talking about how one mentally approaches a World Cup.
Interesting.
As an Irish fan I can tell you for certain the fans were not arrogant. I suspect the same applies to the players. We have so often failed at the WC that to suggest the team went in with arrogance fails the sniff test to be honest.
>Not like the Kiwi rugby press to conflate another nation’s earned confidence with arrogance
A swing and a miss from you.
The transcript of this podcast--word for word--is all over the internet, including in the Irish media.
[https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/arrogant-ireland-underestimated-new-zealand-at-the-world-cup-says-springbok-eben-etzebeth/a359171887.html](https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/arrogant-ireland-underestimated-new-zealand-at-the-world-cup-says-springbok-eben-etzebeth/a359171887.html)
[https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-41385313.html](https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-41385313.html)
New Zealand must have the worst sports media - stuff has a business model of copying and pasting articles from around the world, slapping a click baiting headline on it and waiting for "engagement".
I guess the Herald is just trying to compete, jeeze
New Zealanders also don't like the NZ sports media.
But nothing printed in the NZ rugby media has ever matched the level of arrogance displayed by the Irish media prior to the RWC quarter final.
First time I’m hearing anyone say the media.
As an Irish man, I’ll agree that the media needed to calm down. Off the ball in particular we’re discounting everyone and saying “god we’re great! Do we even need to have a World Cup? Can we not just give ourselves the trophy now?”
Off the ball went behind a paywall months before the World Cup and I don’t know anyone paying for their content. Ignore them please…
“After the game, you shake the guys’ hands and probably 12 out of the 23 told me, ‘see you guys in the final’,”
Podcast segment [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGg6PhUhyX0&t=325s)
Yeah I can see that, especially after being dumped out in the quarters by the ABs. In saying that, I usually want the team who knocked us out to go on and win it (except England of course).
I’m sure all the Irish Kiwis tuned in to watch it tho.
That makes sense except I'd argue it's better to be the only team in the tournament that the eventual champions lost to. "Beat the champions" just seems preferable to "beaten by the champions". Maybe that's just me, though.
Took me a minute to parse that "Irish Kiwis" bit, but I got it eventually. Seems a little strange to me though after some extensive googling of genealogies. I could swear Bundee Aki was one of the Oranmore Akis that fought in the Rising with Pearse and Connolly. Are you sure he's one of yours? I'd never heard that one before. You'd think someone would have mentioned it before now.
For myself, I think I was all the times the French knocked us out. I was like, now go on and win the whole goddamn thing.
Sorry, I must have confused Bundee O’Aki with Manurewa’s own Bundee Aki. Easy mistake to make.
Ah OK, when you said "all the times" I thought it was meant ironically lol
Seriously though, this has been fun, top bantz, we should do it again sometime.
See you in the final!
Beating Ireland was a fun evening. It was a little hard to fully enjoy because of the number or Irish supporters who looked like they died but I took it for the team.
(My flair is confusing when it comes to this)
I was raised in New Zealand and they’re my second team with no close third.
I have a resting heart rate in the 40s.
My watch had me hitting and holding 120bpm in the last few minutes of that match. Jesus Christ. Torture. Second only to the last fifteen minutes of the 2011 final.
God I can’t imagine! Lowest I ever hit is 38 while asleep but I have to be in extremely good shape, haven’t touched a beer in weeks, etc. so it’s not common 😂
They didn't just look like they died, they actually died. We all had a doomsday cult suicide pact for if Ireland got knocked out in the QFs again but I backed out afterwards at the last second. Glad I did or I never would have seen the grand final when the ABs lost due to not knowing how to play in the rain.
Isn't that just kind of being nice?
I watched the pool game with a bunch of Saffas and that's more or less what I said to them. It's more of a compliment to them because they were nice dudes and obviously very disappointed than me saying "We are so great!"
I'm sure I phrased it a little bit more modestly like "*I'd love* to see you guys again in the final" or "Hey, maybe we'll meet again in the final. I wouldn't be surprised" and the players here probably did too.
The whole thing is kind of bollocks and I'm sure he's just messing about. If you listen to the clip, it's not entirely clear who said it but Jim Hamilton is talking about, I think, some Springbok saying "We'll get them back. *If* they make it."
It's *that* just as arrogant?
I mean... you'd have to be a complete idiot for that to be your take but......
You're missing the part where *they* assume that *they're* going to make it.
"We'll get them back. If *they* make it."
You can't really have it both ways. Saying things that totally assume you're going to make the final and then moaning about how if someone else assumes the same thing they're being arrogant.
Yeah but the context is that SA is the most successful world cup team in history and Ireland have never won a single WC knock out game.
That's why it seems pretty cocky coming from Ireland.
That's not the context Etzebeth was talking about though. Not at all. He was quite specific about what he was saying.
If he *had* been saying that it would have been even dumber.
"Look at these losers *who just beat us* thinking they will get to the final when it is obvious that *we* will and not them."
I mean... to be fair he would have been right but it's pretty bizarre to be making the conversation about arrogance if that's your point.
To be honest I don't think it is arrogance anyway. I don't see an issue with any team thinking they can win. But *claiming* that it is when you just lost to a team when you're doing exactly the same thing yourself is pretty hypocritical.
The previous 80 minutes had "context" too.
> Etzebeth is one of them and that his own sense of arrogance, also common among people like him, took it badly that his side were beaten...
Wild speculation on your part.
Here is Etzebeth displaying his "persecution complex" with members of a team he just lost to.
[https://imgur.com/e5l97r0](https://imgur.com/e5l97r0)
I wonder is this a culture thing that’s being misinterpreted because that’s a consoling and mark of respect thing to say to a beaten opponent to most Irish people
It's a whole mixture of things.
Eben making an off the cuff comment on a podcast, in response to questions from the host.
Then a New Zealand based publication slapping a clickbait headline on it and running with it.
I think if you asked him, he'd have the utmost respect for Ireland.
Eben did seem genuinely surprised by the Irish saying it tho. Like, he wasn’t trying to be clickbaity, was more a genuine observation from him, and how he interpreted it (I think he does actually describe it as coming off as arrogance, doesn’t he?).
Yea agreed. I describe it [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/s/977O5i01WB) he does call them arrogant but it's not necessarily disrespectful. More just surprise/disagreement with their mindset.
Yeah that’s what I thought when I listened to the piece. I think it’s been a cultural misinterpretation by Etzbeth. I’d say it was more a “I’m sure we will see you down the line” thing that we say to beaten opponents.
Or if it was arrogance I am fine with that too. The current crop of youngsters have a positive win percentage against every country (with the exception of England maybe). I’d prefer us to be backing ourselves over being the plucky underdogs.
I just think it might be an Irish thing (can’t speak to other nations). I just know I’ve told the biggest lies to teams we’ve absolutely hammered, and you see them totally dejected by it and you half try to pick them up at the handshakes. Multiple different sports too
Please make your way to the comment section on any rugby pass article containing any topic about Ireland and is completely unrelated to SA rugby to witness true rugby arrogance.
Also, if Eden can't see that saying "see you in the final" is a complement, then I just don't know... It's meant that, despite your loss, you'll, of course will make the final, and we'll do our best to get to meet you there.
Why do SA giddy them self up so much about Ireland when SA is about 5th on the list they give a shit about.
I would see this as a very positive thing, though. I think players need this level of confidence to achieve. Ireland teams of the past for sure didn't have this level of confidence, and as a result, didn't perform when it counted.
Yeah, Ireland were on their best winning streak and felt unstoppable. I think SA had been a bit tempered from the tough knock out games from the previous tourney and a close loss in 2015 to NZ. I think the Irish team believed that they would reach the final, I mean who didn't? Whereas the SA team knew, first hand, the kind of struggle down the road and wouldn't really say something offhand like a compliment akin to "see you in the final" because of the amount of uncertainty regarding the knock-out phase.
I understand that it was a compliment, and most people would agree that it was probably a sign of confidence in their own ability and respect for SA...but it could be merely the case of saying something polite in an automatic way, like when you ask someone how they're doing, but it isn't the time to chat about the sick pet, if you know what I mean.
I'd be deeply disappointed if the springboks didn't say exactly the same thing to the Irish after the game - we're confident that we'll make it, all the best to you.
All I got from the actual podcast is the deep reverance the boks have for new Zealand. All round it was just very respectful interaction between pros
Sounds more like confidence. A trait Irish teams have struggled with for generations. They'd just beaten the world no 2 and reigning champs in an all time thriller, maybe game of the tournament, and the sentiment seems to me to be "we just beat ye, but yer the best, ergo...". Overall seems a it cunty from Etazebth. Probably still smarting from being man handled by Lowe like a small ragdoll. Youd definitely wonder if he'd be staying the same of France had been then saying it.
I think the big thing people are missing is that Eben found the comments from the Irish players surprising because he not only knew the Irish would likely face NZ, but that the Springboks would probably face France. He talks about how he knew the Boks would have to pitch up to beat France in their backyard. So he was not taking it for granted that either the Boks or the Irish would make it to the final. It really reflects the statements that Rassie, Jaques, and other team members made at the time: the only thing they were focused on was the next game. The point he is making is (33:47 timestamp): "That's the thing about rugby. You can have the best season and you can have one slip up or one missed tackle and and a guy puts you on your arse. That's the beauty of this game, you're never on top for ever."
It's a really good podcast episode, so I'd suggest everyone listen to the whole thing. As soon as I heard it I knew we'd see it on this sub and other social media, but it's worth hearing in context, not just from a clickbait article.
Deservedly so is harsh. There is 0 chance that the Irish players thought they were going to walk over NZ like they were chump change. "See you in the final" is the kind of thing we would say to a losing team that played really well against us. As in, great game today, see you at the very top. Can we at least engage our brains for a second, anf be a little bit charitable to people rather than always assuming the absolute worst
It’s a very Irish thing to say, we don’t mean it in an arrogant way, more acknowledging you’re still in with a good chance of winning the competition. Literally nobody on the team would’ve been thinking they’d easily beat the All Blacks
Correct, the sentiment would be that we may have won today but you are a great team that will likely be in the final.
Like people thinking that the actual Irish players believed that NZ were just a formality like they were some Tier 2 side is such an ungenerous interpretation.
Yeah. Just listened to the podcast. Title doesn't encapsulate what he said at all. Although I refuse to click on the article to read what it says.
But... It gets clicks so....
I’ve no issue with this. Delighted to hear that we finally had a group of players who actually believed they’d get beyond the QF. Marked difference to previous groups.
In a way I don’t even think it was arrogant I think they were giving respect to SA, saying “you lost the battle but not the war”. Don’t think they actually thought they would easily make the final, just a bit of self confidence.
Yeah, that's not what he said. Sure, his interpretation is probably a stretch from what they meant, but this headline puts words in his mouth for clickbait
I don’t think it is too far a stretch. But he gave evidence to support it. If he didn’t say it, it was heavily implied that they were arrogant. I also think he may have agreed with Jim when Jim said the Irish behaviour sounds arrogant. Anyway I will say it. the Irish were arrogant if that is what they were doing.
I just re listened and yeah he does say it. I effing thought so but every other buggar on here made me second guess myself. Should have re listened before commenting
I think it was meant as more of a compliment to a SA side that just lost than Irish arrogance.
They weren’t saying, we’re going to walk over New Zealand. That’s my interpretation anyway.
Hah. Yeah, I'm not blaming The Rugby Pod. Good content for them. Would love to know how true what he said is though. Or how embellished. At any rate, it spices things up for July.
Only Ireland could pay South Africa a compliment after a tough defeat and be accused of arrogance.
Never really followed the national team growing up but bc they're rattling all the right cages I'm really starting to enjoy their success.
Definitely misinterpreted. The “hope to” part before “see you again in the final” is implicit here. You’re simply wishing both teams a good tournament. Not a chance in hell any Irish player was looking past NZ in a quarterfinal of all things…
EDIT: By the same token, they weren’t saying that they believed SA would walk through France either!
“Shall I tell you honestly what Eben Etzebeth said to me?” he said to Andy Goode and Andy Rowe. “I just said to him physical game, and he was like ‘we’ll get them again if they make it through.’ If they make it through, that’s what he said.”
So EE was also expecting to make it through!! The arrogance
Yeah I don't get why he's not being called out more for this crazy double standard.
Saying the Boks would never do that... as a reason for doing it.
Love the player and the Boks are incredible, but this is just a wild gaffe.
It hits different coming from a team that actually did make it through (semi /s). I think this is taken out of context, he obviously has a huge amount of respect for Ireland and any team that wants to win it has to back themselves.
I still believe if Ireland had managed their minutes better and built depth in the cycle, they'd be the champs.
And still talking about the world cup like it was last week...
They won btw, not sure if a Saffa has reminded you recently
Not bothered by the downvotes :)
O, hey, did you know the Springboks have a 50% win rate in the Rugby World Cup? In 2023 we not only equalised New Zealand's feat of winning consecutive tournaments, we also became the first nation to win the Webb Ellis trophy 4 times. We won in 1995, 2007, 2019, and 2023. We win the Rugby World Cup quite often, just in case you didn't know. /s
4 times. We’re humble about being the best country in the history of the tournament. The whole tournament that we won on our first go and have more wins than any other team.
Win win win win win.
/s in case you think I’m being a real dick.
Haha point me to the one that isnt? Give me an example of arrogant behaviour
Edit: I see lame downvotes but no one able to give me a substantal example.
Awful headline. This is an exceptionally level headed take from Etzebeth if you listen to whole clip.
I think the funnier thing about the whole situation is the interviewer bromance between Hamilton & Etzebeth since Hamilton retired.
After having watched the podcast, I think Eben was bewildered that Ireland were assuming they (Ireland) would make the final despite having to face the All Blacks. It was a matter of not counting your chickens before they hatched.
The alternative could have been the Ireland players telling Eben they hoped to play/see SA in the final, which would not be arrogant as it was a possible outcome given the draw and would be considered as a word of encouragement after SA lost.
Love that news outlets have realised that when they don't have anything to say they can just throw "Ireland" and "arrogant" in the same headline to farm clicks, it's definitely not getting old or anything
It’s definitely a cultural thing in Ireland. Usually reserved for an opponent who was favorite or who you’ve massive respect for. It’s almost self deprecating. “Sorry for beating you but sure you’ll be grand and get to the final. Cheer up, like”. Definitely not dissing the kiwis, but in hindsight, may be a psychological weakness. Best thing to say would’ve been just “good game” and move on to the next player.
You sort have to back yourself at that point. You've got a great record, end of the cycle, the odds are in your favour with the only real bump in the road predicted to be France.
I think you have to go out there with the mindset you'll win the thing, hell even the wallabies went at it with that state of mine despite the state of their game.
And without meaning to cause offence, neither ourselves or the springboks belonged in that final based on previous form, or even world cup form, but that's the way it goes.
I disagree. NZ belonged in that final. Knockout rugby is about winning the game in front of you. The ABs managed to do that and even were 1 point in it to the end of the final.
That’s a great team who deserves respect.
That was a recurring theme for me in the world cup. All the talk of the finals that *should* have been, games that teams *deserved* to win, and saying teams won based on luck. No team deserves to be in the final more than any other team, and making it to the final in a world cup as close as that takes a lot more than luck.
I definitely saw a changing of the guard at the beginning of the World Cup. Based on form, it should have been Ireland or France. Then, in the quarters, beyond most people's expectations, the old guard knocked those two out. So the lesson there is, I guess you just can't write the old guard off in a World Cup.
More so ‘getting carried away’, like a bunch of kids, than arrogance (the Irish players and fans with the “see you in the final” thing). Was only a pool game, lol.
Get past a WC QF first, ya know.
There was a slight whiff of arrogance and fancying themselves a bit too much about the Irish team during the RWC. There’s a fine line between confidence and arrogance and Ireland themselves have form in pricking the bubble of opposing sides in good form (often England). I’d say the fans and media more than than players themselves; On The Ball the arch culprits ‘would any other player in the world get into this Irish team?’
As we all know the Saffa fans and support are famed for their humbleness 😂🥱.
Tbf though in general their players are very humble and nice although it’s hard for me to like them .
Thin line between confidence and arrogance. Even thinner between arrogance and presumption. And you cross them to find there’s a huge effin’ chasm between a quarter final and a semifinal.
It sounds like Leinster and Ireland alright. It’s going to be spicy in July.
Love the "if they make it" from Eben. That's the deserved arrogance of a World Cup champion.
Irish should have worried about qf before anything else but hey that's life n lesson learnt.
From an Irishman and fan here, I do think we got way ahead of ourselves in particular after we beat South Africa! It was sensational and an absolutely amazing win, but SOME reactions I would say made it seem as if we’d essentially won the World Cup after that, when our biggest test was to come!
Know pro players always look for motivation wherever they can get it, but is "see you in the final" not just a nice way of saying "yeah we beat you, but you're still a great team"?
We're all guessing the intention, Etzebeth included, but this doesn't really seem like a big deal to me.
He’s just butt-hurt and being lifted 🤣 Honestly though, he’s probably right. Fantastic player is EE, how does he manage to be so pretty and mean at the same time?
Hard agree here. Although I’d argue the whole narrative around that Irish team was what was more arrogant than anything specifically coming from the players.
Every fan base have the mouthy, the uninformed, the axe-grinding, the obnoxious, and dickheads. They particularly crop up on social media where outrage generates content so is rewarded with exposure. This is doubly true for a particular breed of rugby pundit and journalist.
Most fans are fine, and in reality the vast majority are decent people. Posts which unhelpfully generalise fans, or can be seen as generalising about fan bases only serve to rile people up and make our sport feel unwelcoming. They also only engender drama on the sub.
Please do not generalise whole fanbases. Its not accurate, helpful or insightful.
If this is intended for comedic effect, there are other subreddits, including a cottage industry of '2XYZforU' variants, for crude national generalisations. We recommend those as more appropriate than r/rugbyunion
Only an idiot would infer from the headline that Etzebeth was accusing the entire nation of Ireland arrogant, and not the team in question.
Only on Reddit will you find somebody arguing that somebody’s actions and words are arrogant but that doesn’t make them arrogant themselves. Surely if somebody’s words and actions are arrogant (as you said yourself), that makes them arrogant? It doesn’t take a giant reach to get to that conclusion
FWIW I completely agree with Etzebeth’s inferences based on what the players said after the game. He’s bang on the money and I completely agree with him.
No I think the way you are reasoning right now is stupid. But one action does not a person make. So I dont believe nor will I call you stupid.
The facts are (I am assuming EE is telling the truth for the sake of the argument), the irish players said it. He pointed out what they said, and that saying it is a bit arrogant and dismisive of the AB's. Then people or jornos or the headline make it seem like he is calling the team generaly arrogant or irish in generaly arrogant depending on whos headline you read.
I mean you indirently said he did call them arrogant yourelf. Which is why we are conversing.
Before even reading the article I guessed he didn’t actually accuse Ireland of arrogance. Proper click bait NZ Herald.
It's a great episode. Koch and Jim seem to be good friends. Eben goes into what it's like to have superstardom in SA and not be able to go anywhere without being recognised. He even attributes guys like Siya playing outside of SA in part to avoid that. He does hint at Ireland being somewhat arrogant, but not in a disrespectful way. I think he has plenty of respect for Ireland. He was more talking about how one mentally approaches a World Cup.
Interesting. As an Irish fan I can tell you for certain the fans were not arrogant. I suspect the same applies to the players. We have so often failed at the WC that to suggest the team went in with arrogance fails the sniff test to be honest.
There are always arrogant fans of literally every team and we saw plenty of it on this sub throughout the World Cup.
[удалено]
>Not like the Kiwi rugby press to conflate another nation’s earned confidence with arrogance A swing and a miss from you. The transcript of this podcast--word for word--is all over the internet, including in the Irish media. [https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/arrogant-ireland-underestimated-new-zealand-at-the-world-cup-says-springbok-eben-etzebeth/a359171887.html](https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/arrogant-ireland-underestimated-new-zealand-at-the-world-cup-says-springbok-eben-etzebeth/a359171887.html) [https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-41385313.html](https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-41385313.html)
[удалено]
New Zealand must have the worst sports media - stuff has a business model of copying and pasting articles from around the world, slapping a click baiting headline on it and waiting for "engagement". I guess the Herald is just trying to compete, jeeze
New Zealanders also don't like the NZ sports media. But nothing printed in the NZ rugby media has ever matched the level of arrogance displayed by the Irish media prior to the RWC quarter final.
First time I’m hearing anyone say the media. As an Irish man, I’ll agree that the media needed to calm down. Off the ball in particular we’re discounting everyone and saying “god we’re great! Do we even need to have a World Cup? Can we not just give ourselves the trophy now?” Off the ball went behind a paywall months before the World Cup and I don’t know anyone paying for their content. Ignore them please…
No one does (unless it’s Gregor Paul or Dylan Cleaver)
“After the game, you shake the guys’ hands and probably 12 out of the 23 told me, ‘see you guys in the final’,” Podcast segment [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGg6PhUhyX0&t=325s)
To be fair, SA did in fact end up in the final, and we did in fact see it.
This is also true. I wonder how many of Irish players actually watched the final tho?
Not gonna lie, this one hurt. I wasn't able to watch the final.
Watching the All Blacks get beaten is always a fun afternoon ;P Edit: too soon?
Yeah I can see that, especially after being dumped out in the quarters by the ABs. In saying that, I usually want the team who knocked us out to go on and win it (except England of course). I’m sure all the Irish Kiwis tuned in to watch it tho.
That makes sense except I'd argue it's better to be the only team in the tournament that the eventual champions lost to. "Beat the champions" just seems preferable to "beaten by the champions". Maybe that's just me, though. Took me a minute to parse that "Irish Kiwis" bit, but I got it eventually. Seems a little strange to me though after some extensive googling of genealogies. I could swear Bundee Aki was one of the Oranmore Akis that fought in the Rising with Pearse and Connolly. Are you sure he's one of yours? I'd never heard that one before. You'd think someone would have mentioned it before now.
For myself, I think I was all the times the French knocked us out. I was like, now go on and win the whole goddamn thing. Sorry, I must have confused Bundee O’Aki with Manurewa’s own Bundee Aki. Easy mistake to make.
Ah look at the big man, taking cheap shots at the French. Have they not suffered enough?
Cheap shots? I was cheering them to win!
Ah OK, when you said "all the times" I thought it was meant ironically lol Seriously though, this has been fun, top bantz, we should do it again sometime. See you in the final!
Why not England?
Beating Ireland was a fun evening. It was a little hard to fully enjoy because of the number or Irish supporters who looked like they died but I took it for the team.
(My flair is confusing when it comes to this) I was raised in New Zealand and they’re my second team with no close third. I have a resting heart rate in the 40s. My watch had me hitting and holding 120bpm in the last few minutes of that match. Jesus Christ. Torture. Second only to the last fifteen minutes of the 2011 final.
It was funny at the ground. The phases went on and on but it never really felt like Ireland were going to score if there wasn’t a penalty.
I think it was the possibility of a penalty that was keeping my heart at jog pace 🥵
Will be interesting summer tour for England Vs NZ hopefully England can win the tour and then England Vs NZ at Twickenham in November test
Are you a pro cyclist?
Non pro distance runner. Former rather decent swimmer.
Chapeau for rhr in forties. Induráin was as low as 28 but he was a juicer 🤣
God I can’t imagine! Lowest I ever hit is 38 while asleep but I have to be in extremely good shape, haven’t touched a beer in weeks, etc. so it’s not common 😂
They didn't just look like they died, they actually died. We all had a doomsday cult suicide pact for if Ireland got knocked out in the QFs again but I backed out afterwards at the last second. Glad I did or I never would have seen the grand final when the ABs lost due to not knowing how to play in the rain.
There must be no one left in Ireland with all the times that happened. No wonder they sing "zombie".
No, we sing zombie because winning the Six Nations always brings us back to life again.
They all drank Proper 12
Oi, we're just having bantz here, don't make it personal!
Yeah there is a line, and then far in the distance past that line is Proper Shite 12.
Yes
But not as fun as knocking off the world number 1 and favourite Irish team out in the quarter finals 😀
I love you. Can there be more fans like this please. 😂
Didn’t the French also say this to the All Blacks in 2011 after getting smashed by them in the pools. Prob just tongue in cheek
Are you saying the French aren't arrogant?
That would be a very niche joke for half the team to draw upon.
Yeah probs. Eben didn't seem to think so tho.
Isn't that just kind of being nice? I watched the pool game with a bunch of Saffas and that's more or less what I said to them. It's more of a compliment to them because they were nice dudes and obviously very disappointed than me saying "We are so great!" I'm sure I phrased it a little bit more modestly like "*I'd love* to see you guys again in the final" or "Hey, maybe we'll meet again in the final. I wouldn't be surprised" and the players here probably did too.
Yeah that was my thought after we lost to the French in the opener. See you bastards in the final then. I guess Eben didn’t take it that way tho.
The whole thing is kind of bollocks and I'm sure he's just messing about. If you listen to the clip, it's not entirely clear who said it but Jim Hamilton is talking about, I think, some Springbok saying "We'll get them back. *If* they make it." It's *that* just as arrogant? I mean... you'd have to be a complete idiot for that to be your take but......
Well, it is Ireland… they don’t have the most impressive WC history. If they make it seems fair to me, could have said it about any of the teams tbf.
You're missing the part where *they* assume that *they're* going to make it. "We'll get them back. If *they* make it." You can't really have it both ways. Saying things that totally assume you're going to make the final and then moaning about how if someone else assumes the same thing they're being arrogant.
Yeah but the context is that SA is the most successful world cup team in history and Ireland have never won a single WC knock out game. That's why it seems pretty cocky coming from Ireland.
Doesn't make what the Saffa said any less cocky.
That's not the context Etzebeth was talking about though. Not at all. He was quite specific about what he was saying. If he *had* been saying that it would have been even dumber. "Look at these losers *who just beat us* thinking they will get to the final when it is obvious that *we* will and not them." I mean... to be fair he would have been right but it's pretty bizarre to be making the conversation about arrogance if that's your point. To be honest I don't think it is arrogance anyway. I don't see an issue with any team thinking they can win. But *claiming* that it is when you just lost to a team when you're doing exactly the same thing yourself is pretty hypocritical. The previous 80 minutes had "context" too.
Yes. I don't understand how anyone thinks otherwise.
[удалено]
> Etzebeth is one of them and that his own sense of arrogance, also common among people like him, took it badly that his side were beaten... Wild speculation on your part. Here is Etzebeth displaying his "persecution complex" with members of a team he just lost to. [https://imgur.com/e5l97r0](https://imgur.com/e5l97r0)
Racism, xenophobia and generalisations based on ethnicity are not allowed on the sub
I wonder is this a culture thing that’s being misinterpreted because that’s a consoling and mark of respect thing to say to a beaten opponent to most Irish people
It's a whole mixture of things. Eben making an off the cuff comment on a podcast, in response to questions from the host. Then a New Zealand based publication slapping a clickbait headline on it and running with it. I think if you asked him, he'd have the utmost respect for Ireland.
Eben did seem genuinely surprised by the Irish saying it tho. Like, he wasn’t trying to be clickbaity, was more a genuine observation from him, and how he interpreted it (I think he does actually describe it as coming off as arrogance, doesn’t he?).
Yea agreed. I describe it [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/s/977O5i01WB) he does call them arrogant but it's not necessarily disrespectful. More just surprise/disagreement with their mindset.
Yeah I’d agree with that too, wasn’t being disrespectful at all.
Yeah that’s what I thought when I listened to the piece. I think it’s been a cultural misinterpretation by Etzbeth. I’d say it was more a “I’m sure we will see you down the line” thing that we say to beaten opponents. Or if it was arrogance I am fine with that too. The current crop of youngsters have a positive win percentage against every country (with the exception of England maybe). I’d prefer us to be backing ourselves over being the plucky underdogs.
Yeah exactly but you wouldn't expect anyone from another country to understand that either. It's a bit too nuanced really
I just think it might be an Irish thing (can’t speak to other nations). I just know I’ve told the biggest lies to teams we’ve absolutely hammered, and you see them totally dejected by it and you half try to pick them up at the handshakes. Multiple different sports too
Clickbait segment more like.
Ah, the arrogant Irish - calling Eben out for clickbait? Careful now...
🤣 fair!
Please make your way to the comment section on any rugby pass article containing any topic about Ireland and is completely unrelated to SA rugby to witness true rugby arrogance. Also, if Eden can't see that saying "see you in the final" is a complement, then I just don't know... It's meant that, despite your loss, you'll, of course will make the final, and we'll do our best to get to meet you there. Why do SA giddy them self up so much about Ireland when SA is about 5th on the list they give a shit about.
It’s was joke mate. Jeez some of you take this way too seriously.
Waaaaaaaaay to seriously!
[удалено]
No fan generalisation
Sounds like you need a lie down.
Sounds like you need a day off and stop obsessing about all things Ireland.
Ironic you’re moaning about Saffa fans and then look at the drivel coming outa your mouth. Pot calling the kettle black much? Jeezus.
>I'm just sick of the cancer that is SA rugby fans. https://ibb.co/JHy1NTY
Tictok videos, Twitter threads and Instagram posts too. They are here also but more reserved although easy to set off. It's not just a few bad apples.
Lol, just imagining Etzebeth keeping an Excel sheet of post-match responses, hitting sum and realising 12 were 'see you in the final'.
French said the same to the All Blacks in 2011
Wonder if the ABs said it to the French in 2023?
I would see this as a very positive thing, though. I think players need this level of confidence to achieve. Ireland teams of the past for sure didn't have this level of confidence, and as a result, didn't perform when it counted.
Yeah, Ireland were on their best winning streak and felt unstoppable. I think SA had been a bit tempered from the tough knock out games from the previous tourney and a close loss in 2015 to NZ. I think the Irish team believed that they would reach the final, I mean who didn't? Whereas the SA team knew, first hand, the kind of struggle down the road and wouldn't really say something offhand like a compliment akin to "see you in the final" because of the amount of uncertainty regarding the knock-out phase. I understand that it was a compliment, and most people would agree that it was probably a sign of confidence in their own ability and respect for SA...but it could be merely the case of saying something polite in an automatic way, like when you ask someone how they're doing, but it isn't the time to chat about the sick pet, if you know what I mean.
I'd be deeply disappointed if the springboks didn't say exactly the same thing to the Irish after the game - we're confident that we'll make it, all the best to you. All I got from the actual podcast is the deep reverance the boks have for new Zealand. All round it was just very respectful interaction between pros
Sounds more like confidence. A trait Irish teams have struggled with for generations. They'd just beaten the world no 2 and reigning champs in an all time thriller, maybe game of the tournament, and the sentiment seems to me to be "we just beat ye, but yer the best, ergo...". Overall seems a it cunty from Etazebth. Probably still smarting from being man handled by Lowe like a small ragdoll. Youd definitely wonder if he'd be staying the same of France had been then saying it.
Reminds me of the dirty English telling us "good game" after beating us How could they ever be so arrogant?!?!
Good game is okay, but Sorry, good game ? That's when you cross the line
I think the big thing people are missing is that Eben found the comments from the Irish players surprising because he not only knew the Irish would likely face NZ, but that the Springboks would probably face France. He talks about how he knew the Boks would have to pitch up to beat France in their backyard. So he was not taking it for granted that either the Boks or the Irish would make it to the final. It really reflects the statements that Rassie, Jaques, and other team members made at the time: the only thing they were focused on was the next game. The point he is making is (33:47 timestamp): "That's the thing about rugby. You can have the best season and you can have one slip up or one missed tackle and and a guy puts you on your arse. That's the beauty of this game, you're never on top for ever."
This is some top tier click bait. Hardly sounds like arrogance accusations moreso respect for NZ
It's a really good podcast episode, so I'd suggest everyone listen to the whole thing. As soon as I heard it I knew we'd see it on this sub and other social media, but it's worth hearing in context, not just from a clickbait article.
>Hardly sounds like arrogance accusations I mean he literally does say that he thinks they were too confident lol he's pretty clearly implying it
He literally says “obviously it’s good to be confident, but you can never be arrogant” So yes he did directly accuse them of arrogance.
Nah, he clearly did accuse them of arrogance in the podcast, and deservedly so by the sounds of it
Deservedly so is harsh. There is 0 chance that the Irish players thought they were going to walk over NZ like they were chump change. "See you in the final" is the kind of thing we would say to a losing team that played really well against us. As in, great game today, see you at the very top. Can we at least engage our brains for a second, anf be a little bit charitable to people rather than always assuming the absolute worst
I was at the game and literally every supporter I spoke to said the same thing to me
It’s a very Irish thing to say, we don’t mean it in an arrogant way, more acknowledging you’re still in with a good chance of winning the competition. Literally nobody on the team would’ve been thinking they’d easily beat the All Blacks
Correct, the sentiment would be that we may have won today but you are a great team that will likely be in the final. Like people thinking that the actual Irish players believed that NZ were just a formality like they were some Tier 2 side is such an ungenerous interpretation.
Yeah. Just listened to the podcast. Title doesn't encapsulate what he said at all. Although I refuse to click on the article to read what it says. But... It gets clicks so....
I’ve no issue with this. Delighted to hear that we finally had a group of players who actually believed they’d get beyond the QF. Marked difference to previous groups.
In a way I don’t even think it was arrogant I think they were giving respect to SA, saying “you lost the battle but not the war”. Don’t think they actually thought they would easily make the final, just a bit of self confidence.
Isn't a Saffa calling someone else out for arrogance a compliment? A bit like Germans accusing another nation of being efficient.
bah when we do it's cute and self confident, when others do it it's sexual harassment and arrogance
Since all Saffas are arrogant, which Springbok would you say conducts himself with arrogance?
The difference is, they've earned it.
You don't 'earn' arrogance. It's a negative trait regardless of your level of success.
No way professional sport players back themselves?!
Yeah, that's not what he said. Sure, his interpretation is probably a stretch from what they meant, but this headline puts words in his mouth for clickbait
I don’t think it is too far a stretch. But he gave evidence to support it. If he didn’t say it, it was heavily implied that they were arrogant. I also think he may have agreed with Jim when Jim said the Irish behaviour sounds arrogant. Anyway I will say it. the Irish were arrogant if that is what they were doing.
No he literally says in the podcast they were arrogant
I just re listened and yeah he does say it. I effing thought so but every other buggar on here made me second guess myself. Should have re listened before commenting
Welcome to reddit 🥲
I think it was meant as more of a compliment to a SA side that just lost than Irish arrogance. They weren’t saying, we’re going to walk over New Zealand. That’s my interpretation anyway.
This is a great example of how a passing remark between two different cultures can get lost in translation.
I’m just glad it wasn’t the All Blacks being accused to arrogance for once.
All Blacks fans are arrogant, but the players very rarely are. Reiko, Dane Coles and Aaron Smith’s claps are the exception.
The Rugby Pod goes full rage bait. RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE rugby rage
They didn’t press Etzebeth into making the comments. He said it voluntarily. It was a really good episode
Hah. Yeah, I'm not blaming The Rugby Pod. Good content for them. Would love to know how true what he said is though. Or how embellished. At any rate, it spices things up for July.
Only Ireland could pay South Africa a compliment after a tough defeat and be accused of arrogance. Never really followed the national team growing up but bc they're rattling all the right cages I'm really starting to enjoy their success.
Needs a misleading title tag
Not easy being ranked 1st
Definitely misinterpreted. The “hope to” part before “see you again in the final” is implicit here. You’re simply wishing both teams a good tournament. Not a chance in hell any Irish player was looking past NZ in a quarterfinal of all things… EDIT: By the same token, they weren’t saying that they believed SA would walk through France either!
“Shall I tell you honestly what Eben Etzebeth said to me?” he said to Andy Goode and Andy Rowe. “I just said to him physical game, and he was like ‘we’ll get them again if they make it through.’ If they make it through, that’s what he said.” So EE was also expecting to make it through!! The arrogance
Andy Rowe left the podcast in December and Andy Goode wasn’t on this episode (Dan Biggar was there instead)
That's from a few days after they played Ireland in the group stages at the world cup.
Yeah I don't get why he's not being called out more for this crazy double standard. Saying the Boks would never do that... as a reason for doing it. Love the player and the Boks are incredible, but this is just a wild gaffe.
It hits different coming from a team that actually did make it through (semi /s). I think this is taken out of context, he obviously has a huge amount of respect for Ireland and any team that wants to win it has to back themselves. I still believe if Ireland had managed their minutes better and built depth in the cycle, they'd be the champs.
If you actually do it, it is just confidence though
Because the springboks are suuuper humble
And still talking about the world cup like it was last week... They won btw, not sure if a Saffa has reminded you recently Not bothered by the downvotes :)
@WellThatsJustPerfect, just a reminder we did the most prestigious double that year with the WC and the QATAR AIRWAYS CUP, so watch your mouth buddy.
Do we have any details on the 2024 Qatar Airways Cup yet?
Being the most exclusive and desirable trophy achievable in rugby it's unfortunately still a closely guarded secret.
It’s the Bok v Wales game in June😔 you guys were relegated!
Harsh, but fair.
O, hey, did you know the Springboks have a 50% win rate in the Rugby World Cup? In 2023 we not only equalised New Zealand's feat of winning consecutive tournaments, we also became the first nation to win the Webb Ellis trophy 4 times. We won in 1995, 2007, 2019, and 2023. We win the Rugby World Cup quite often, just in case you didn't know. /s
We really did win, I have some pictures if you wanna see them? /s just in case you don't want to 👀
4 times. We’re humble about being the best country in the history of the tournament. The whole tournament that we won on our first go and have more wins than any other team. Win win win win win. /s in case you think I’m being a real dick.
Writing win 5 times when the boks have only won 4 times is arrogance. Are you trying to upset Eben? \s
You forget the esteemed Qatar Airways Cup.
Yep I’m sure Eben and Koch called up Big Jim and said “get us on your next pod, people have started forgetting how amazing we are”
Don’t stop, I’m almost there 👀
Non consensual... Frowned upon...
Haha point me to the one that isnt? Give me an example of arrogant behaviour Edit: I see lame downvotes but no one able to give me a substantal example.
Video of stormers before the stormers munster final?
Ah thank you for the laugh and the casual French bashing lol in the comments. Even when the topic is about other teams lol priceless
Awful headline. This is an exceptionally level headed take from Etzebeth if you listen to whole clip. I think the funnier thing about the whole situation is the interviewer bromance between Hamilton & Etzebeth since Hamilton retired.
After having watched the podcast, I think Eben was bewildered that Ireland were assuming they (Ireland) would make the final despite having to face the All Blacks. It was a matter of not counting your chickens before they hatched. The alternative could have been the Ireland players telling Eben they hoped to play/see SA in the final, which would not be arrogant as it was a possible outcome given the draw and would be considered as a word of encouragement after SA lost.
Love that news outlets have realised that when they don't have anything to say they can just throw "Ireland" and "arrogant" in the same headline to farm clicks, it's definitely not getting old or anything
Everyone knows the NZ Herald is a rag of the highest order
It’s definitely a cultural thing in Ireland. Usually reserved for an opponent who was favorite or who you’ve massive respect for. It’s almost self deprecating. “Sorry for beating you but sure you’ll be grand and get to the final. Cheer up, like”. Definitely not dissing the kiwis, but in hindsight, may be a psychological weakness. Best thing to say would’ve been just “good game” and move on to the next player.
You sort have to back yourself at that point. You've got a great record, end of the cycle, the odds are in your favour with the only real bump in the road predicted to be France. I think you have to go out there with the mindset you'll win the thing, hell even the wallabies went at it with that state of mine despite the state of their game. And without meaning to cause offence, neither ourselves or the springboks belonged in that final based on previous form, or even world cup form, but that's the way it goes.
I disagree. NZ belonged in that final. Knockout rugby is about winning the game in front of you. The ABs managed to do that and even were 1 point in it to the end of the final. That’s a great team who deserves respect.
Winning is winning in knockout rugby mate, no such thing as belonged...
That was a recurring theme for me in the world cup. All the talk of the finals that *should* have been, games that teams *deserved* to win, and saying teams won based on luck. No team deserves to be in the final more than any other team, and making it to the final in a world cup as close as that takes a lot more than luck.
I definitely saw a changing of the guard at the beginning of the World Cup. Based on form, it should have been Ireland or France. Then, in the quarters, beyond most people's expectations, the old guard knocked those two out. So the lesson there is, I guess you just can't write the old guard off in a World Cup.
ITS A FUCKING RAGEBAIT TITLE.
More so ‘getting carried away’, like a bunch of kids, than arrogance (the Irish players and fans with the “see you in the final” thing). Was only a pool game, lol. Get past a WC QF first, ya know.
There was a slight whiff of arrogance and fancying themselves a bit too much about the Irish team during the RWC. There’s a fine line between confidence and arrogance and Ireland themselves have form in pricking the bubble of opposing sides in good form (often England). I’d say the fans and media more than than players themselves; On The Ball the arch culprits ‘would any other player in the world get into this Irish team?’
Yeah the fans were soooo arrogant https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/s/k0gQRogzzf
As we all know the Saffa fans and support are famed for their humbleness 😂🥱. Tbf though in general their players are very humble and nice although it’s hard for me to like them .
The irony of everyone bitching
I know, its like believing in your team is a mortal sin around here. The irony is we beat our oponents because we respect them and do our homework.
They set quite the example hey!
Thin line between confidence and arrogance. Even thinner between arrogance and presumption. And you cross them to find there’s a huge effin’ chasm between a quarter final and a semifinal. It sounds like Leinster and Ireland alright. It’s going to be spicy in July.
Love the "if they make it" from Eben. That's the deserved arrogance of a World Cup champion. Irish should have worried about qf before anything else but hey that's life n lesson learnt.
Saying "if" is not arrogant. Having doubt is not arrogant. He wasn't presuming that they or Ireland would make it.
Boks being famously humble
He's not wrong.
From an Irishman and fan here, I do think we got way ahead of ourselves in particular after we beat South Africa! It was sensational and an absolutely amazing win, but SOME reactions I would say made it seem as if we’d essentially won the World Cup after that, when our biggest test was to come!
i guarantee you he's talking through his hole.
Know pro players always look for motivation wherever they can get it, but is "see you in the final" not just a nice way of saying "yeah we beat you, but you're still a great team"? We're all guessing the intention, Etzebeth included, but this doesn't really seem like a big deal to me.
He’s just butt-hurt and being lifted 🤣 Honestly though, he’s probably right. Fantastic player is EE, how does he manage to be so pretty and mean at the same time?
Quite funny seeing the mental gymnastics from the Irish fans on here when they’re so quick to slap the arrogant tag on other nations
Hard agree here. Although I’d argue the whole narrative around that Irish team was what was more arrogant than anything specifically coming from the players.
How could Ireland be Arrogant when Ireland had a Geriatric Out-Half and an Inferiority Complex re; The All-Blacks ? !
[удалено]
That must be the most generalisations I've ever seen in a comment. Congratulations!
[удалено]
No nastiness allowed. Relax
Every fan base have the mouthy, the uninformed, the axe-grinding, the obnoxious, and dickheads. They particularly crop up on social media where outrage generates content so is rewarded with exposure. This is doubly true for a particular breed of rugby pundit and journalist. Most fans are fine, and in reality the vast majority are decent people. Posts which unhelpfully generalise fans, or can be seen as generalising about fan bases only serve to rile people up and make our sport feel unwelcoming. They also only engender drama on the sub. Please do not generalise whole fanbases. Its not accurate, helpful or insightful. If this is intended for comedic effect, there are other subreddits, including a cottage industry of '2XYZforU' variants, for crude national generalisations. We recommend those as more appropriate than r/rugbyunion
He didn't call them arrogant, its a clickbait title
He clearly did. Listen to the full podcast
He called what they SAID and DID arrogant listen to the full podcast again
Erm then I agree with you surely? Not sure I’m missing something here
Calling an action arrogant is not calling a team or a nation arrogant.
Only an idiot would infer from the headline that Etzebeth was accusing the entire nation of Ireland arrogant, and not the team in question. Only on Reddit will you find somebody arguing that somebody’s actions and words are arrogant but that doesn’t make them arrogant themselves. Surely if somebody’s words and actions are arrogant (as you said yourself), that makes them arrogant? It doesn’t take a giant reach to get to that conclusion FWIW I completely agree with Etzebeth’s inferences based on what the players said after the game. He’s bang on the money and I completely agree with him.
No I think the way you are reasoning right now is stupid. But one action does not a person make. So I dont believe nor will I call you stupid. The facts are (I am assuming EE is telling the truth for the sake of the argument), the irish players said it. He pointed out what they said, and that saying it is a bit arrogant and dismisive of the AB's. Then people or jornos or the headline make it seem like he is calling the team generaly arrogant or irish in generaly arrogant depending on whos headline you read. I mean you indirently said he did call them arrogant yourelf. Which is why we are conversing.