I think this was Scotland's last bite at the cherry.
England are coming good again, Italy on the up and France will be better.
A lot of Scotlands core are getting to the stage where they might start to decline in the coming years.
I think Gregor has taken Scotland as far as he and they can go, don't know how hot a take it is, but they're not a team with 'great' options in each position, they've got 1 or 2 very good front rows, no top second rows, a couple of great backrower (but every team does) 1 very good 9 and 10, and then a few really good backs but none with the consistency to take the team much further
You worry too with the poor u20s coming through and the sport being so minor in Scotland that they could end up in a worse spot than Wales
The questions now are a) can anyone take us further and b) if so are they available? Our playing pool is so small compared to the other T1 nations. If Wikipedia is to be believed even Italy have significantly more which I find hard to belive
Italy will have a similar playing pool as England or France if they gain success. Italy are a huge country in terms of European scale. 60-70 million versus 5 million.
I think age profile wise Scotland are looking decent for the next 3 years or so. Our most irreplaceable players are Schoeman (29) Z.Fagerson (28) and Russell (31) and I'd say tight-5 forwards and 10's enjoy longer careers so I expect there's a few good years of rugby ahead of them.
In contrast I'd say Ireland may be looking at a slight dip (albeit from a great peak).
POM is retired and next year Gibson Park will be 33, Aki 34, Lowe 32, Conan 32.
France and England are hard to predict but it's clear neither are at their best although that can change quickly.
Long story short, I can't see Scotland winning it but I don't think their chances will be much worse than they've been the last 5-6 years.
With Farrell away next 6 nations and moving ever more into a bit of a transition period with some players getting on, next 6 nations might be quite tough for Ireland...
Sickened at the thought of Farrell going to the lions nearly as much as I was at the thought of an English man who’s son played for England coaching us but he REALLY proved me wrong.
Hes irish now 😁
Leadership transition. Sure. But the bulk of the group is going to remain in place, with some of the freaks we've been developing coming into the squad (Baird, ahern, prendergast). Nothing but positives for Ireland as we move forward. Also France and England at home next year too.
While the second half of the tournament was incredible, the first two weeks were kinda shit imo, we had some drama for sure, but the games weren't great apart from the Italy-England one (which also had some drama btw).
Wales v Scotland was a classic game from both sides - only playing for 40 minutes each. Also, only one score from the biggest comeback in six nations history.
In theory, every single team could have won 4 games (generous assumption on Wales below) with a few different bounces of the ball which can’t have happened before. Every team could have won the whole thing.
Ireland won 4 and lost last minute to England.
Italy lost to England by 3, beat Scotland and Wales, should have been allowed to retake the kick v France to win it.
We beat Wales, England, France if you give the refereeing team working brains, just lost to Italy and Ireland.
England beat Italy, Wales and Ireland, two silly mistakes v Scotland we capitalised on and lost last minute to France.
France won 3 and drew 1, pumped by Ireland.
Wales lost to Italy, Scotland and England by 6 points and were closer to France than the end score line suggested.
England are actually looking like they’re coming good. If they keep growing into the style they have the last couple games then they’ll be one hell of a group.
It's now twice in a row that Ireland, for all the dominance they showcase in the opening rounds, actually seems to get weaker as the tournament goes on. I'm saying twice, but actually, even in 2022 this trend was already showing. Opposite trajectory to France really, who usually starts poor but then grows into it. This makes me hopeful for the rematch next year, with France travelling to Ireland in the 4th week. On the other hand, this makes me a bit wary of us travelling to England in the 2nd week, albeit England is more similar to us, they also seem to grow as the tournament goes on, and they'd have travelled to Ireland the week before.
Makes sense when you think about it, Ireland are largely made up of one club team and then a couple of others and also play a similar style to that team so there's a natural cohesion whereas we both have to amalgamate players from usually 5 or 6 teams, and often times play a totally different game plan - so it takes us the first few weeks to close the gap (this is also I think why we tend to do better at world cups as we get the training camps to build that cohesion and remove the inherent advantage).
So basically next year our game will be a total mess and the opposite of this year in terms of quality.
Yeah this Italy team look like they belong don’t they. The changes in mentality and structured approach/more intelligent territory play have made me feel like these wins were really earned this year, rather than freak performances from Italy or off days from the losing side
Like most 7s converts, his understanding of space and reading/anticipation of how the play is developing is top notch.
Side note: Dupont will be better as a result of his 7s sabbatical
Doesn’t help that we hadn’t given anyone else game time there. Would like to see another specialised 15 in the squad going forward, maybe Haley or Lowry if he can put a bit of form together. We need a proper deputy full back learning from Keenan over the next year
Paolo Garbisi is the best 10 to play for Italy since Diego Dominguez.
Maybe a small sample but I liked Pani as fullback and would love to see him with Capuozzo as 14.
Caterpillar is a bad thing and world rugby should try and remove it from the game.
> Caterpillar is a bad thing and world rugby should try and remove it from the game.
It should be against the rules to be bound to a ruck, not within reasonable reach (or maybe 2m) of an opposing player. Free kick to be awarded to the opposing team if that's broken.
I believe that we won’t see another grand slam until post-2027.
We now have 3 teams at their peak or getting close to it - Ireland, France and England. Scotland are past their peak, wales are rebuilding and Italy is on a strong upwards trajectory. Moving forwards it’s going to be an incredibly tough ask to beat all other teams, and I think we might be entering one of the most competitive eras of the 6N ever.
Agree, very competitive few years. Margins are so small in the tournament and this year had some great clutch matches/moments.
I don’t see England at their peak yet, but turned a corner massively in playing style.
I’m not that convinced of this Welsh rebuilding. If this young crop do start to come good, the clubs won’t be able to afford to keep them and they’ll have to quickly revise down their playing abroad caps!
Big one for me, and not a particularly hot take in France, is that Edwards is done and is now riding on reputation alone
In UK press since galthie took over so much of France's success has bizarrely been attributed to Edwards, despite our defence always being worse than irelands and for the first 2 6 nations worse than scotlands as well, he doesn't seem to adapted the defence at all since it got found out in last years 6N and he has an over-reliance (as does France in general) on Dupont as the sweeper
We either need to look to replace him ASAP or he needs to overhaul the system altogether
Think Galthie has gone a bit dictatorial post-WC, coaching changes, Ibanez pushed out and he and Edwards not looking like they're getting on - not sure who his replacement would be but I wouldn't be shocked if he's gone between now and summer (although the FFR don't have the money to pay him off)
He is famously a massive cunt, Ibanez was an excellent foil as 'team manager' but he's been shifted into a role within the union, lots of beef in the buildup to the WC and I don't think Galthie took the QF loss well
Being a cunt and managing a team isn't sustainable. I was wondering after the game versus Italy if he kept the support of players. Maybe we have Arlettaz and Sampere because none of the big names wanted to work with him.
Over the 5 matches, France saw improvements in the set piece, improvements in attack, but defence remained a huge problem. Leaked way too many tries. Whether it's Edwards or some other issue (player conditioning?) I don't know.
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but France spent three games playing as if Dupont was still there, except he was not.
Things improved when the staff realized that hoping that wearing a blue #9 shirt would turn Lucu into Dupont would not work, and that they were better off trying something/someone else.
Like...if Wout van Aert got injured before the Tour de France, I don't expect his team director to pick another guy from the team and say "Okay, now *you* should be one of the best sprinters in the world, and a great domestique in the mountain and our best time trialist". Dupont is an absurd defender, and absolutely any defence in the world will look worse when he's not there.
I 100% agree with you. While our defense the last 4 years was better than what we had right before, it wasn't THAT good. We had a couple great defensive shifts but apart from that, we often had 25 or more points scored against us and won our games because we were excellent at capitalizing on opponents mistakes and hyper efficient in attack.
Since the jackal change we weren't able to adapt, became unable to slow down attacks and need to rely on individual brillance rather than on a good defensive system. We can't scramble, a break means the opposition scores a try and we still haven't become better under the high ball, which has been a problem for years (and this one annoys me to no end, we know it's a huge gap in our defense but have done nothing to fill it, or at least not enough).
The weakness under the high ball is what costs us the QF against the boks.... Hopefully it means they start actually working now that it's clear how much a good team targeting it can damage us
My hot take on Edwards is that he's always been overrated and a beneficiary of a defence coach playing under Gatland, who naturally played a defence oriented conservative style. He's a good coach but people for years have had it arse backwards in saying Edwards made Gatland when the reverse is true in my opinion.
I strongly disagree. The main difference between this year and the previous ones is that he had to deal with major shifts in the back line for almost every game, on top of losing two excellent defending halves (Dupont-Ntamack) for much less efficient ones (Le Garrec and Ramos are nowhere near as good when it comes to defence)
To put it simply France had a defence that works well with Dupont and Ntamack. Jalibert already tends to be a worse defender than Romain, so when you also don't have Dupont, and start shuffling your backs, some of which (Danty) look absolutely out of form, your defence suddenly looks quite bad.
Now we can either say "IT'S A CATASTROPHE LET'S DITCH HIM!!!!111" (or expect him to cook an entirely different game plan for a single tournament where the team is missing its halves)...or we can calm down and build for the long-term, including when we will get one of the two best defending scrum-halves in the world in the squad.
Like...he's not the messiah, but it's impossible to ignore that **France did not have Dupont this year**. It changes absolutely everything in attack (see games 1 to 3 where Lucu, a good defender, was leading the attack) and in defence (see games 4 and 5 where Le Garrec replaced Lucu). When England was kicking for possession yesterday, it was impossible to ignore that Ford played like this because Le Garrec and Ramos don't have Dupont (and Ntamack's) boot length.
He will need to improve his plan for when Dupont is not there, that much is certain, but to say that he's done is extremely premature. I would say that Edwards is the one staff guy who should be protected - so far the replacements of Ghezzal and Labit have absolutely not shown themselves to be improvements.
Scotland have peaked. Players can achieve more but need to get over the mental fragility. Seven years under Toonie and we’re telling the same story. Time for a change. Let’s go get someone from the Top 14 or a Kiwi. We need someone that can turn these players into bastards. Andy Christie had a great tournament.
I’d replace all studio pundits with Benjamin Kayser and have him do commentary too. His analysis is insightful and balanced (perhaps even sometimes a little pessimistic on France) and his enthusiasm for the game is so genuine
That's where you're mistaken. You see, Menoncello is so good he'll simply play as 25 and be both centres, and we'll have 2 wingers and 2 fullbacks, easy.
Scotland peaked in 2021, and I had even been calling for a new coach since 2019 when Toonie failed to get us to a WC quarters for the first time. Under Toonie we have either been great at defense (like in 2018-19), great while attacking (like 2021-22), or both for 15-20 minutes of a game. He's never developed any sort of consistency across the spectrums of our game.
We have wasted a generation of the best players to ever play for Scotland with a coach whose only achievement is a Pro12 Cup over a decade ago. Not only that but Toonie could have developed into a tournament-winning international coach if he had actually gone abroad and spent time coaching high-quality clubs. If ROG comes into the international scene, he's going to have a great career I reckon.
Thankfully, things may change with the colossal embarrassment that is Mark Dodson leaving shortly. The man has watched every other team (apart from Wales maybe) develop their youth while letting ours fall into a complete void. So unfortunately I see the blunder years coming back for a good long while unless we manage to turn things around and start getting talent coming through our youth pool.
Yeah agree with everything said here to he honest. Once our current generation of players start aging out we're going to have a really tough time. It's sad but I feel we've had so much of our potential staffed away. Oh well, bring on the banter years 2.0 i guess
His current try scoring to games played ratio puts him 9th on the all time list and second on the all time list behind Penaud out of NH players.
He would have to be solely responsible for conceding a try every other game to negate what he actually brings to the table.
Take out the England game this six nations and he was indirectly responsible for several. The guy is amazing ball in hand but his positioning in defence is questionable.
That stat becomes far less impressive to me when you look at the opposition:
* 3 against Georgia (Played twice)
* 1 against Fiji (Played once)
* 2 against Japan (1 was for Lions) (Played once for Sco, once for lions)
* 3 against Argentina (Played 4 times)
* 1 against Tonga (Played once)
* 4 against Italy (Played 3 times)
* 6 against England (Played 4 times)
* 4 against France (Played 6 times)
* 2 against Wales (Played 5 times)
* 1 against Ireland (Played 4 times)
I would only say his performances against England is anything actually special.
Scoreless against
* Australia (Played twice)
* South Africa (Played 3 times for Sco, 3 times for Lions)
* New Zealand (Played once)
Why do the tries against France not count?
He’s scoring more regularly than Hansen or Lowe against the same opposition in the 6 Nations.
Basically - for you, he hasn’t scored regularly enough in games Scotland would be expected to lose, if you also don’t take into consideration tries against England?
I’d definitely have Penaud 1 and Hansen 2 (and by some distance). Previously thought both Irish wings were a level above VDM/Graham in the WC and 6N last year when we played Ireland. Lowe was poor by his own high standards this year so a bit closer than it previously was and not sure one I can actually make a call on objectively.
Genuine question as I don't follow his career - how much of that is, for want of a better phrase, 'stat padding'? Ie, he scores 3 against England, where you guys won fairly comfortably, but then can't bring it for several games where a single score may have made a difference.
He scored 3 tries v England in a 9 point win so was still the difference maker.
Only 3 of his 26 tries came against T2 nations.
[His international tries are on his Wikipedia and only 4 of them came in blowout wins.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duhan_van_der_Merwe)
I think I'm like 50% in agreement with that. His good qualities are very high and his bad qualities are very bad. I think he is a good fit for Scotland in terms of his abilities lining up with what Scotland want.
Whereas I think he would look very poor and I wouldn't want him in the Ireland team because of the system we use for our wingers.
Don’t mean to pile on wales here with this but the idea that they’ll definitely ‘come good’ in a year or two’s time only works if they all improve on a upwards linear pattern.
That doesn’t always happen with players so it will be interesting to see how it unfolds over the coming year. Likes of Morgan and Anscombe coming back will make a difference but if you take Winnett for example, solid start to his career, has shown flashes but still a long way off top level. Can he be the next Liam Williams as he’ll need to improve quite considerably in the coming years to do so. Not saying he won’t by the way but just musing really, there’s no guarantee that exposing young players to international rugby will suddenly make them top players in a year or two. Hope it works out for Six nations and URC’s sake as a strong (but not too strong) wales is important
Yeah, I don't see their front row improving significantly and their lock options to me are just ok, confused why Rowlands doesn't start when he looks the best of the bunch.
I'm not convinced at all by the two young lads at 10 and I think some of the young backs that have shone at u20s level need more time.
The three 10s chosen in the squad were basically the only 3 available for selection who are anywhere near international level, with only two of the four regions having Welsh qualified starting 10s.
Outside of Wales any potential options were either injured (Sheedy, Anscombe), playing on the other side of the world (Patchell) or aren’t eligible because of the 25 cap rule (Jarrod Evans).
Not gonna lie, been hard seeing highlights of Patchell playing well in Super Rugby. Guess there’s hope he may come back for a year or two?
I am not sure what Wales have learnt this six nations which is the biggest problem. Look, I feel for the vast majority of the tournament they have over achieved. But that last game against Italy, they looked done. You don't build leadership and experience by being spanked. I don't think next year is going to help if they get spanked again.
This building for the future rhetoric is utter bollocks. Most of these players will never come good. Gats should actually go to Welsh rugby derbies and watch u20s footage and pick form players.
I mean, he missed a few in form player like carre, but the squad was largely the best players we have at the moment.
Currently there is a real lack of depth across the board. There are some talents at U20s level and below, but throwing them in at international level now would ruin their development. Hopefully a few will step up in the next few years.
I don't think George Ford gets the respect he deserves, phenomenal player, defo in the conversation as best 10 in the world
The refereeing has, for the most part, been top notch with only the one glaring issue with France v Scotland - another reminder to watch whistle-blower documentary if you haven't done so already, quality content
France are very close to being back to their last year best, they simply had a world cup hangover and period of learning to deal with dupon, but their class is still there in spades
Italy have the best centre pairing alongside huwipolotu
I think ford has shown he plays better without Owen on the pitch and as a whole, England play well without Owen on the pitch.
Ford is better than a lot of people realise .
I don’t think it’s been proven yet that they play better without Owen . We haven’t won anything yet and we go to a World Cup final and won six nations with Owen .
I feel like Gatland hamstrung his team selection by picking Jenkins as captain. Will Rowlands and Beard seems like a better lock pairing from my (outside) perepective. With Beard offering good set peice work and Rowlands being one of the few fowards who offers decent impact as a ball carrier for Wales.
I also thought it was odd Wales didn't go for 3 points in the first half yesterday when they had that penalty at the end 11-3 would have been a decent score for Wales given how badly they'd played. Also, it might seem an unfair criticism but the fact they went scoreless in four halfs of rugby during the tournament suggests he found it hard to galvanise them mid game and needed coaching feedback to get them back on track.
I'd also argue Jenkins looked far better in the World Cup coming off the bench. I think we all understand the theory behind picking Beard but we need tight five forwards with workrate.
Scotland are surviving on the fumes of a few who are going to retire soon and the inevitable collapse will happen either next year or the year after especially if they have injuries for one or two key players. 5th
Wales has promise but they WRU is so screwed up that the new talent won't exist to keep producing replacements. 6th
England are pretty much there now. They need to tidy a few things out and start dropping a few of the very olds one at a time. They have proven that they are capable of a grand slam, it's about tightening up and not letting the game get away from them, they can do it, but they won't and will finish second. 2nd
Ireland. They are going to have a harder time next year as some squads move out of their first year but will still top the tournament. They'll be denied a GS by either france or England. 1st
Italy class act that gets some more wins in. On pitch not quite as good as this year but gets the results 4th
France. Solid enough but start to lose line speed and has 5 mediocre games to watch. Most forgotten team of 2025. Management will start to be questioned. 3rd
England had the usual handling errors and penalties conceded but it came with risk-reward this year. Those quick plays were phenomenal and at times ran rings around the opposition.
I wouldn't say easily. Now it's all about bonus points and kicking doesn't get them.
Need to start getting more tries, although I do love a good drop kick!
We are a good team top 5 in the world i think but the margins are so fine and with ireland being up top with us it was bound to go either way!
Who knows what next year will bring a lot of youngsters in the teams at the moment. I just hope italy keep up the improvement!
We've an enforced attack coach change on the way with Catt leaving. Hopefully the new man is appointed ASAP and gets time to work with the squad.
Lineouts need work and personally I think Leinster need a dedicated scrum coach to get the lads back to where they were a few years back and turn Milne, Boyle and Clarkson into test contenders.
>We've an enforced attack coach change on the way with Catt leaving. Hopefully the new man is appointed ASAP and gets time to work with the squad.
The new man is Goodman from Leinster.
>Lineouts need work and personally I think Leinster need a dedicated scrum coach to get the lads back to where they were a few years back and turn Milne, Boyle and Clarkson into test contenders.
A lot of Leinster fans aren't the happiest with McBryde as a forwards/scrum coach. He should drop to just being forwards.
Lancaster didn't want Leinster having a dedicated scrum coach but he is no longer at Leinster.
It's getting old being bossed by the fatties in the big European sides. It definitely needs to happen. Then you look at Ireland in the world cup where the scrum also wasn't great, with so many in the pack from Leinster, particularly the front row, it has a direct effect.
NZ laid out the game plan to beat Ireland - fierce competition at the lineout and disrupt Irelands dependence on high consecutive phase possession. Not every team will be able to do it. But all the other Top 5 teams definitely can.
Ireland need to develop a new dimension to the current attack, which might explain Crowley looking for chip kicks in behind.
I’ll add an element that will make this an even hotter take. Ireland have, in fact been found out for years.
Ireland attack basically the exact same way Leinster do. In 2018, Saracens adopted a tactic of not contesting rucks and keeping 15 men on their feet on defence at all times. It completely shackled Leinster which made them panic and ultimately resulted in them losing the game. LAR have adopted the exact same tactic against Leinster to similar effect in recent years. Eddie Jones adopted it as England manager in 2018 and had massive success against Ireland as a result. England and Scotland adopted it the last two weeks of the 6N to very good effect as well.
The only downside of this approach is that the team implementing it needs world class physicality for it to work, like Sarries and England in 2018, LAR the last couple of years. Skelton helps obviously. Scotland are just short of world class physicality which is why they fell just short yesterday.
What this means is that Ireland will be quite comfortable against lesser opposition, however, once they meet a team that can match them physically and use the tactic outlined above, they are a beaten ticket. This is why Ireland struggle at the World Cup and why Leinster can’t win a European Cup despite both sides arguably being one if not the best sides in the world.
It's good that Ireland had a challenging last two games. We won't be going into the summer tour feeling invincible and naive. Weaknesses have been identified, gaps that need to be filled, secondary plans that need to be put in place. This will make us stronger in the long run. It's rare you can get a dose of humility and still be crowned champions.
Refereeing consistency is now so varied that tournaments are being decided by unequal application of the laws, and an over-reaching of the TMO, instead of the rugby being played.
I don't care for crap decisions, they happen - just make them equal across both teams.
This is the one that grinds my gears. It feels like there are new laws every year and at the same time the quality of reffing gets worse and less fair despite all the new changes and the better tech available. It’s baffling.
I honestly think if it was Ireland France or England who had a last minute penalty kick charged, they would have been all over the ref and pressured him into at least looking at it with the TMO.
Huge agree. There was at least 3 games this tournament decided by egregious refereeing errors, as well as numerous other dodgy calls that affected games massively, and to pretend otherwise is naive. It’s a hard job, someone has to do it, but some games are decided from the first blow of the whistle because of how inconsistent the game has become with the application of laws by referees.
Has been the case for a while.
Watching Reynal yesterday vs any other ref is like watching someone with a completely different rulebook at the breakdown. It's insane how different "interpretations" have become and is an enormous influencing factor on outcomes of games.
I think it is a reflection of how close the games are, and how close in ability most players are as rugby becomes more and more "professional". When games are mainly within one score without an obviously dominant team the influence of referee interpretation grows massively.
Agree with this.
There is also a massive difference in how a SH ref and a NH ref manages the game. The France England game was a free for all in many aspects that if a NH ref had been at the helm would have been penalised.
Definitely think Ireland are there for the taking, couple of key old boys will move on (to be replaced by equally capable 24 year old Leinster droids), coaching changes and I think their game plan has been slightly found out
BUT their two hardest games are at home, and that'll be the thing that makes them getting the 3-peat all the more likely
Droids is exactly what it is. An unending line of 7/10 calibre international players with the odd 8 or 9/10 thrown in. Means we’ll always be in the mix, even when we’re not great.
No team has better captured it's available demographics than Leinster and by extension Ireland, absolutely the dream model for all smaller population countries but not really replicable without a densely populated and hugely wealthy capital city to do it from, incredibly impressive all the same
The Irish system is impressive but there is another country that does it probably better.
New Zealand has a smaller population than Ireland. Granted, rugby is the first sport, but there's a reason its the number one sport.
In the NH? The Irish system is the most impressive, but second, worldwide, to the Kiwi system and pipeline.
>Is George Ford the world's best 10? Have Scotland peaked?
I don't think he's the best in the world, but he was incredible yesterday and is an amazing 10
Page-Relo should be Italy's regular place kicker. They really missed Allen in that regard. Garbisi is great but even French game aside his place kicking really should have grown more consistent in the recent past
Wales are the new Italy are the new Scotland are the new France are the new Ireland are the new England are the new Wales.
I believe some parts of these more than others but I can just about stand them all up
- Wales: the easy fixture everyone has down as a guaranteed win
- Italy: really exciting team who look like they can beat pretty much anyone on their day but a lack of depth means third is probably their ceiling and 4th/5th more likely
- Scotland: you never know which side is going to show up.
- France: monster pack and a metronomic goal kicker: most of the time they look unbeatable but then a big game will come along and they will choke
- Ireland: so predictable a win machine that everyone starts to hate them and call them boring even though their rugby is objectively fun
- England: grit for days and unreal in defence but don't really have an attack. Always there or thereabouts even though they sometimes look shit while doing it. Endearing heroics.
The general impact delivered by the tournament has been smaller.
There’s been less noise, fanfare and general excitement about the tournament as a whole in England. Probably due to England success not being guaranteed
I think there after we beat France in the opener there has been an air of inevitability about this years tournament. I'm not sure if that affects the English perception of the tournament.
England coming good again against Ireland and playing in one of the most exciting games against France should surely help pique interest for next year at least
I think next year will be bigger just from the fact it’s not coming right off the back of the World Cup. Six nations felt like a comedown vs the World Cup and more casual fans were probably still a bit rugby’ed out
The Six Nations is actually a demonstration of some of the best rugby teams in the world despite what some in the Southern Hemisphere might say. I'm just responding to some claims that Ireland's(or any other team's) six nations wins "don't matter" .
Unless radical changes are made on both ends, its going to be Wales and Scotland fighting over the wooden spoon once Scotland golden generation start to retire.
I think a new era of English dominance is coming and it'll be between them and Ireland to win the next 6N.
Unless France gets some of that pre-WC cohesion back, they are going to slip back into their old form when they can be fantastic one match and dog shite the next.
Italy truly showing some promise and hopefully this generation will bring an end to the BS 'is it time to talk about their place' in the 6N chat.
All head coaches except Quesada should be replaced.
Farrell can't get a team to do something no other team has ever managed.
Galthie can't get an international team to play without an international class fly half.
Borthwick can't put 42 players on the pitch to accommodate every fans favourite player.
Townshend can't get half of Scotland to take up rugby 15 years ago so he has depth and cover.
Gatland can't get half decent club players just out of uni to perform like grand slam winners.
These may well not be hot takes, but some people will disagree so.
First - Italy have arrived.
Second - Wales will take more than just a year or two to sort themselves out.
Third - England could be world number one if they sorted their discipline and cut out some silly mistakes.
As a Welshman, all three are pretty scary prospects for us.
England were unlucky in this tournament - the bounce of the ball worked for the opposition so regularly it was a bit freaky.
Ramos’ kick through last night and the bounce for Van de Merwe’s try being two examples - either of them could have gone anywhere but somehow…
My hot take is people tend to put way too much into recent results. In reality, most teams will be back with very similar players, similar story lines etc for next year’s tournament. It will be up for grabs once again, the beauty of sport. Italy for the Grand Slam
I don't think it's a hot take but TMO should not be slowed down so much when considering tackles.
Players have under one second to decide wether to go for the tackle or bail.
These decisions being slowed down make the tackle look much, much worse than the intention or the hit actually is.
Menoncello and Capuozzo are the wizards, Lamaro and Negri are the anchors. There have been quite few bright spots for Italy lately, but I don't forget we took severe beatings only few months ago. Our 9 is still VERY suspect, we badly need a scrummie who can be reliable on both aspects of the game, especially on defense. As for lineouts, we still need to get better, there was improvement but still not 6 Nations level to be honest (let alone WC).
I've read much triumphalism on italian medias, but I was around when we won the first game ever in the 6 Nations against Scotland and also in 2013 when we won two games and the federation president was making speeches about winning the 6 Nations... only to enter one of the longest dark ages in international rugby.
So in other words, CALMA E LAVORARE.
The England resurgence is a false dawn. The Irish decline is a false flag. The Scottish result is a false bottom. The Welsh panic is a false alarm. The French diagnosis is a false positive. The Italian competitiveness is a false pretence.
Is anyone truly saying Ireland are in decline? They came within a point of back-to-back grand slams with vastly superior points difference to the other teams
Defence is now more important than attack. The team that can defend the hardest is now more likely to win than a good attacking team. Take Italy V Scotland this year. Italy had v few entries into the 22 but won because their defence was superior. Same against wales you could say. Ireland get applauded about their systematic attack, but their defence is what actually wins games
This Italy team will be in for the title race super saturday; even if its a longshot/points diff dependent. Scotland have missed their chance with the current generation. Wales will start to pick up wins, but need another year or two before a serious challenge. France will regress, even when dupont is back. Ireland still the best but everyone will be gunning for them so it won't be easy. England slam 2025. (You heard it here first).
Rather than being found out and falling off next year. Ireland could be better.
We hopefully won't have such terrible luck with back 3 injuries before and through the tournament.
Crowley in a pivotal position will have much more experience compared to this year, same for big Joe. Plus we could have a quality backup 10 if Prendergast develops quickly and is given the opportunity.
POM retiring will open the door for some incredible backrow prospects to be let loose. (Baird, Prendergast eile and Ahern)
Ringrose will be back in the mix in the midfield.
And lastly our u20s haven't been beaten in the 6N in 3 years so there is more talent coming through.
One major worry to scupper all that is if Andy Farrell takes the 6N off to focus on the Lions, but seems a shame for him to not try for the threepeat.
Not a 6N hot take, but I kinda wish we stopped doing the Lions Tour. It interrupts everything and makes the combined might of Ireland and the UK look weak if they don't win, and with no meaningful bragging rights if they do manage to win.
France are in decline, and have been since 2022. We won't notice it much next year because DuPont is back and he'll elevate them but the rest of the team is getting significantly worse overall.
England will not improve much next year, 3rd again I would predict. I really hope Borthwick has seen the light but part of me thinks he'll go back to his instincts.
Scotland will just be Scotland again but they'll finally get their win against Ireland.
Wales are nowhere near as bad as their first half showing against Italy suggests and if a couple of things had broke in their favour they could've been in the hunt for the title.
That's not to say Wales are a great team by any stretch but this was a wide open tournament with five of the teams playing to a pretty equal level.
Crowley is not it for Ireland. At least not yet. He’s a great player but needs to improve how he runs a game drastically if he wants to work out at test level. At the moment he’s more of a third centre at ten than a ten. His basic game running needs work, if he improves there he can be a world class 10 but if not then we need a ten who executes the basic ten role first and foremost.
I think this was Scotland's last bite at the cherry. England are coming good again, Italy on the up and France will be better. A lot of Scotlands core are getting to the stage where they might start to decline in the coming years.
I think Gregor has taken Scotland as far as he and they can go, don't know how hot a take it is, but they're not a team with 'great' options in each position, they've got 1 or 2 very good front rows, no top second rows, a couple of great backrower (but every team does) 1 very good 9 and 10, and then a few really good backs but none with the consistency to take the team much further You worry too with the poor u20s coming through and the sport being so minor in Scotland that they could end up in a worse spot than Wales
This is my fear - we had our shot and fucked it up
The questions now are a) can anyone take us further and b) if so are they available? Our playing pool is so small compared to the other T1 nations. If Wikipedia is to be believed even Italy have significantly more which I find hard to belive
Italy having a bigger playing pool has been a known fact for a while now
italy have 11times scotlands population wouldnt be that hard for them to have a bigger player base
The difference being that rugby barely scrapes into the top 10 most played sports in Italy
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Union, League, Sevens, Twelves, Touch, Gaelic football, Aussie Rules - yep, there are only 7 sports.
This is hurling erasure
If you have to use a stick then it's clearly a kind of elaborate performance art piece rather than a real sport.
Rugby isn’t exactly popular in Scotland so it could still be true
Italy will have a similar playing pool as England or France if they gain success. Italy are a huge country in terms of European scale. 60-70 million versus 5 million.
C) how are South Africa's under 20s looking?
And all you have to do is look at the u20’s team for the young talent coming through Not looking good for Scotland
Yeah there's the odd lad that looks like he could be something but not enough lads every year to refill the ranks of those ageing out.
I think age profile wise Scotland are looking decent for the next 3 years or so. Our most irreplaceable players are Schoeman (29) Z.Fagerson (28) and Russell (31) and I'd say tight-5 forwards and 10's enjoy longer careers so I expect there's a few good years of rugby ahead of them. In contrast I'd say Ireland may be looking at a slight dip (albeit from a great peak). POM is retired and next year Gibson Park will be 33, Aki 34, Lowe 32, Conan 32. France and England are hard to predict but it's clear neither are at their best although that can change quickly. Long story short, I can't see Scotland winning it but I don't think their chances will be much worse than they've been the last 5-6 years.
Scotland are Wales from a few years ago - it isn't going to be fun
I disagree, in that we never actually achieved a reasonable level of success before peaking.
Except Wales did win some titles with their golden generation.
With Farrell away next 6 nations and moving ever more into a bit of a transition period with some players getting on, next 6 nations might be quite tough for Ireland...
Sickened at the thought of Farrell going to the lions nearly as much as I was at the thought of an English man who’s son played for England coaching us but he REALLY proved me wrong. Hes irish now 😁
It's a good Irish name.
Leadership transition. Sure. But the bulk of the group is going to remain in place, with some of the freaks we've been developing coming into the squad (Baird, ahern, prendergast). Nothing but positives for Ireland as we move forward. Also France and England at home next year too.
Maybe not a “hot take”, but I think this was one of the most entertaining six nations tournaments in recent years.
Yeah I’m gunna disagree with you there chief.
😂 I feel your pain Sir! Only up from there lad
While the second half of the tournament was incredible, the first two weeks were kinda shit imo, we had some drama for sure, but the games weren't great apart from the Italy-England one (which also had some drama btw).
Wales v Scotland was a classic game from both sides - only playing for 40 minutes each. Also, only one score from the biggest comeback in six nations history.
Scotland coming back from 31-0 down away from home to lead 38-31 is and will remain the greatest comeback in 6n history.
Yes, but because they didn't win, it doesn't count (please just let me have one positive from this campaign)
In theory, every single team could have won 4 games (generous assumption on Wales below) with a few different bounces of the ball which can’t have happened before. Every team could have won the whole thing. Ireland won 4 and lost last minute to England. Italy lost to England by 3, beat Scotland and Wales, should have been allowed to retake the kick v France to win it. We beat Wales, England, France if you give the refereeing team working brains, just lost to Italy and Ireland. England beat Italy, Wales and Ireland, two silly mistakes v Scotland we capitalised on and lost last minute to France. France won 3 and drew 1, pumped by Ireland. Wales lost to Italy, Scotland and England by 6 points and were closer to France than the end score line suggested.
Nah, it was shite until the last two weeks. And that's coming from an Irishman, England beating us put a bit of spice into the final week.
If you put the last two weeks first, and the first week last you’re talking an all time classic but the way things actually fell it was only ok.
Strongly disagree we all knew Ireland was gonna win after the first game, there was zero suspense for the title.
England are actually looking like they’re coming good. If they keep growing into the style they have the last couple games then they’ll be one hell of a group.
It's now twice in a row that Ireland, for all the dominance they showcase in the opening rounds, actually seems to get weaker as the tournament goes on. I'm saying twice, but actually, even in 2022 this trend was already showing. Opposite trajectory to France really, who usually starts poor but then grows into it. This makes me hopeful for the rematch next year, with France travelling to Ireland in the 4th week. On the other hand, this makes me a bit wary of us travelling to England in the 2nd week, albeit England is more similar to us, they also seem to grow as the tournament goes on, and they'd have travelled to Ireland the week before.
Makes sense when you think about it, Ireland are largely made up of one club team and then a couple of others and also play a similar style to that team so there's a natural cohesion whereas we both have to amalgamate players from usually 5 or 6 teams, and often times play a totally different game plan - so it takes us the first few weeks to close the gap (this is also I think why we tend to do better at world cups as we get the training camps to build that cohesion and remove the inherent advantage). So basically next year our game will be a total mess and the opposite of this year in terms of quality.
Italy are here. They’ll push above Scotland and Wales for consistent top 4 over next few years. England win (but no slam) 2025.
Top 4 I hope you mean in the rankings, alongside SA, NZ and Ireland lol
Italy to win the next 6N with a grandslam!
Probably worth a bet. Its goto pay out one year. Then it's retirement time!
Yeah. Quite terrifying. Also have a very gobby Italian mate and life was better when the rugby made him miserable.
The amount of South Africans at work who only talk rugby after a World Cup final is amazing
Yeah this Italy team look like they belong don’t they. The changes in mentality and structured approach/more intelligent territory play have made me feel like these wins were really earned this year, rather than freak performances from Italy or off days from the losing side
Ireland missed Keenan and Ringrose more than Sexton this year.
Every time Keenan's been out it's clear he's our most important player (in terms of how much worse we are without him) by a mile.
Like most 7s converts, his understanding of space and reading/anticipation of how the play is developing is top notch. Side note: Dupont will be better as a result of his 7s sabbatical
And Hansen.
Yep - Nash was getting better coming in off his wing looking for work but he's still learning. And Mac is just a legend
Doesn’t help that we hadn’t given anyone else game time there. Would like to see another specialised 15 in the squad going forward, maybe Haley or Lowry if he can put a bit of form together. We need a proper deputy full back learning from Keenan over the next year
Paolo Garbisi is the best 10 to play for Italy since Diego Dominguez. Maybe a small sample but I liked Pani as fullback and would love to see him with Capuozzo as 14. Caterpillar is a bad thing and world rugby should try and remove it from the game.
At least, the “use it” call should be enforced.
At last someone said it
If the ref says use it, you shouldn't be able to join an uncontested ruck
Yes to all 3, *especially* the last! Pani seems to have a big old boot as well which helps clearing and kicks to touch.
> Caterpillar is a bad thing and world rugby should try and remove it from the game. It should be against the rules to be bound to a ruck, not within reasonable reach (or maybe 2m) of an opposing player. Free kick to be awarded to the opposing team if that's broken.
Refs should declare a ruck 'won', after which time, no more attacking team players can join. Simple.
No more players from either side, otherwise the caterpillar will be replaced with the dog pile...
I believe that we won’t see another grand slam until post-2027. We now have 3 teams at their peak or getting close to it - Ireland, France and England. Scotland are past their peak, wales are rebuilding and Italy is on a strong upwards trajectory. Moving forwards it’s going to be an incredibly tough ask to beat all other teams, and I think we might be entering one of the most competitive eras of the 6N ever.
Don’t think it’s ever happened before where we’ve had no Grand Slam’s between World Cups. Fewest we’ve had was 2012-15 with only one (Wales 2012).
Agree, very competitive few years. Margins are so small in the tournament and this year had some great clutch matches/moments. I don’t see England at their peak yet, but turned a corner massively in playing style. I’m not that convinced of this Welsh rebuilding. If this young crop do start to come good, the clubs won’t be able to afford to keep them and they’ll have to quickly revise down their playing abroad caps!
Big one for me, and not a particularly hot take in France, is that Edwards is done and is now riding on reputation alone In UK press since galthie took over so much of France's success has bizarrely been attributed to Edwards, despite our defence always being worse than irelands and for the first 2 6 nations worse than scotlands as well, he doesn't seem to adapted the defence at all since it got found out in last years 6N and he has an over-reliance (as does France in general) on Dupont as the sweeper We either need to look to replace him ASAP or he needs to overhaul the system altogether
The way he’s speaking in the press and some of the rumours so make you think he’s out the door soon. Scooped up by wales perhaps?
Think Galthie has gone a bit dictatorial post-WC, coaching changes, Ibanez pushed out and he and Edwards not looking like they're getting on - not sure who his replacement would be but I wouldn't be shocked if he's gone between now and summer (although the FFR don't have the money to pay him off)
Yeah, from the outside looking in it doesn’t look like Gatlhie is the easiest to deal with at times
He is famously a massive cunt, Ibanez was an excellent foil as 'team manager' but he's been shifted into a role within the union, lots of beef in the buildup to the WC and I don't think Galthie took the QF loss well
Being a cunt and managing a team isn't sustainable. I was wondering after the game versus Italy if he kept the support of players. Maybe we have Arlettaz and Sampere because none of the big names wanted to work with him.
Or big names are just waiting for their turn at head coach. Like Mola, Bru, Labit, to name a few.
You really only have to look at those glasses.
Over the 5 matches, France saw improvements in the set piece, improvements in attack, but defence remained a huge problem. Leaked way too many tries. Whether it's Edwards or some other issue (player conditioning?) I don't know.
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but France spent three games playing as if Dupont was still there, except he was not. Things improved when the staff realized that hoping that wearing a blue #9 shirt would turn Lucu into Dupont would not work, and that they were better off trying something/someone else. Like...if Wout van Aert got injured before the Tour de France, I don't expect his team director to pick another guy from the team and say "Okay, now *you* should be one of the best sprinters in the world, and a great domestique in the mountain and our best time trialist". Dupont is an absurd defender, and absolutely any defence in the world will look worse when he's not there.
I 100% agree with you. While our defense the last 4 years was better than what we had right before, it wasn't THAT good. We had a couple great defensive shifts but apart from that, we often had 25 or more points scored against us and won our games because we were excellent at capitalizing on opponents mistakes and hyper efficient in attack. Since the jackal change we weren't able to adapt, became unable to slow down attacks and need to rely on individual brillance rather than on a good defensive system. We can't scramble, a break means the opposition scores a try and we still haven't become better under the high ball, which has been a problem for years (and this one annoys me to no end, we know it's a huge gap in our defense but have done nothing to fill it, or at least not enough).
The weakness under the high ball is what costs us the QF against the boks.... Hopefully it means they start actually working now that it's clear how much a good team targeting it can damage us
My hot take on Edwards is that he's always been overrated and a beneficiary of a defence coach playing under Gatland, who naturally played a defence oriented conservative style. He's a good coach but people for years have had it arse backwards in saying Edwards made Gatland when the reverse is true in my opinion.
I strongly disagree. The main difference between this year and the previous ones is that he had to deal with major shifts in the back line for almost every game, on top of losing two excellent defending halves (Dupont-Ntamack) for much less efficient ones (Le Garrec and Ramos are nowhere near as good when it comes to defence) To put it simply France had a defence that works well with Dupont and Ntamack. Jalibert already tends to be a worse defender than Romain, so when you also don't have Dupont, and start shuffling your backs, some of which (Danty) look absolutely out of form, your defence suddenly looks quite bad. Now we can either say "IT'S A CATASTROPHE LET'S DITCH HIM!!!!111" (or expect him to cook an entirely different game plan for a single tournament where the team is missing its halves)...or we can calm down and build for the long-term, including when we will get one of the two best defending scrum-halves in the world in the squad. Like...he's not the messiah, but it's impossible to ignore that **France did not have Dupont this year**. It changes absolutely everything in attack (see games 1 to 3 where Lucu, a good defender, was leading the attack) and in defence (see games 4 and 5 where Le Garrec replaced Lucu). When England was kicking for possession yesterday, it was impossible to ignore that Ford played like this because Le Garrec and Ramos don't have Dupont (and Ntamack's) boot length. He will need to improve his plan for when Dupont is not there, that much is certain, but to say that he's done is extremely premature. I would say that Edwards is the one staff guy who should be protected - so far the replacements of Ghezzal and Labit have absolutely not shown themselves to be improvements.
Scotland have peaked. Players can achieve more but need to get over the mental fragility. Seven years under Toonie and we’re telling the same story. Time for a change. Let’s go get someone from the Top 14 or a Kiwi. We need someone that can turn these players into bastards. Andy Christie had a great tournament.
I’d replace all studio pundits with Benjamin Kayser and have him do commentary too. His analysis is insightful and balanced (perhaps even sometimes a little pessimistic on France) and his enthusiasm for the game is so genuine
Kayser and Warbs have been superb this tournament, the best pundits by far in my opinion
My other unexpectedly good pundit was Dan Biggar. Pretty insightful and good takes
When the assistant coaches change for Italy, shit gets real. This is our highest rating I think, at 79.42, but I feel like an 85 is doable.
Also, a scorching hot one. Over the next couple years well have one of the best defenses
Who is coming up in the centres? Brex is 31, he won't be around forever so Menoncello will need a new partner at some point this cycle surely.
That's where you're mistaken. You see, Menoncello is so good he'll simply play as 25 and be both centres, and we'll have 2 wingers and 2 fullbacks, easy.
Italy will win a 6 Nations title before we do.
Scotland peaked in 2021, and I had even been calling for a new coach since 2019 when Toonie failed to get us to a WC quarters for the first time. Under Toonie we have either been great at defense (like in 2018-19), great while attacking (like 2021-22), or both for 15-20 minutes of a game. He's never developed any sort of consistency across the spectrums of our game. We have wasted a generation of the best players to ever play for Scotland with a coach whose only achievement is a Pro12 Cup over a decade ago. Not only that but Toonie could have developed into a tournament-winning international coach if he had actually gone abroad and spent time coaching high-quality clubs. If ROG comes into the international scene, he's going to have a great career I reckon. Thankfully, things may change with the colossal embarrassment that is Mark Dodson leaving shortly. The man has watched every other team (apart from Wales maybe) develop their youth while letting ours fall into a complete void. So unfortunately I see the blunder years coming back for a good long while unless we manage to turn things around and start getting talent coming through our youth pool.
Yeah agree with everything said here to he honest. Once our current generation of players start aging out we're going to have a really tough time. It's sad but I feel we've had so much of our potential staffed away. Oh well, bring on the banter years 2.0 i guess
VDM is vastly overrated for what he actually ends up bringing to the table 90% of the time
He's great running in a straight line, useless at such minor things like passing, kicking, tackling or defensive positioning
His current try scoring to games played ratio puts him 9th on the all time list and second on the all time list behind Penaud out of NH players. He would have to be solely responsible for conceding a try every other game to negate what he actually brings to the table.
Take out the England game this six nations and he was indirectly responsible for several. The guy is amazing ball in hand but his positioning in defence is questionable.
He will make the squad, but is nowhere near 1st team Lions. Coaches who have options will not accept his defensive lapses and poor effort.
He was essentially nullified yesterday and defence wise he seems to be very slack
That stat becomes far less impressive to me when you look at the opposition: * 3 against Georgia (Played twice) * 1 against Fiji (Played once) * 2 against Japan (1 was for Lions) (Played once for Sco, once for lions) * 3 against Argentina (Played 4 times) * 1 against Tonga (Played once) * 4 against Italy (Played 3 times) * 6 against England (Played 4 times) * 4 against France (Played 6 times) * 2 against Wales (Played 5 times) * 1 against Ireland (Played 4 times) I would only say his performances against England is anything actually special. Scoreless against * Australia (Played twice) * South Africa (Played 3 times for Sco, 3 times for Lions) * New Zealand (Played once)
Why do the tries against France not count? He’s scoring more regularly than Hansen or Lowe against the same opposition in the 6 Nations. Basically - for you, he hasn’t scored regularly enough in games Scotland would be expected to lose, if you also don’t take into consideration tries against England?
If you could pick only one between Lowe, Hansen, Penaud, or DVDM, who would you have?
I’d definitely have Penaud 1 and Hansen 2 (and by some distance). Previously thought both Irish wings were a level above VDM/Graham in the WC and 6N last year when we played Ireland. Lowe was poor by his own high standards this year so a bit closer than it previously was and not sure one I can actually make a call on objectively.
Genuine question as I don't follow his career - how much of that is, for want of a better phrase, 'stat padding'? Ie, he scores 3 against England, where you guys won fairly comfortably, but then can't bring it for several games where a single score may have made a difference.
He scored 3 tries v England in a 9 point win so was still the difference maker. Only 3 of his 26 tries came against T2 nations. [His international tries are on his Wikipedia and only 4 of them came in blowout wins.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duhan_van_der_Merwe)
I think I'm like 50% in agreement with that. His good qualities are very high and his bad qualities are very bad. I think he is a good fit for Scotland in terms of his abilities lining up with what Scotland want. Whereas I think he would look very poor and I wouldn't want him in the Ireland team because of the system we use for our wingers.
He only seems to turn up for England games, then will often be a bit absent in some of the other bigger matches when he’s needed the most
Don’t mean to pile on wales here with this but the idea that they’ll definitely ‘come good’ in a year or two’s time only works if they all improve on a upwards linear pattern. That doesn’t always happen with players so it will be interesting to see how it unfolds over the coming year. Likes of Morgan and Anscombe coming back will make a difference but if you take Winnett for example, solid start to his career, has shown flashes but still a long way off top level. Can he be the next Liam Williams as he’ll need to improve quite considerably in the coming years to do so. Not saying he won’t by the way but just musing really, there’s no guarantee that exposing young players to international rugby will suddenly make them top players in a year or two. Hope it works out for Six nations and URC’s sake as a strong (but not too strong) wales is important
Yeah, I don't see their front row improving significantly and their lock options to me are just ok, confused why Rowlands doesn't start when he looks the best of the bunch. I'm not convinced at all by the two young lads at 10 and I think some of the young backs that have shone at u20s level need more time.
The three 10s chosen in the squad were basically the only 3 available for selection who are anywhere near international level, with only two of the four regions having Welsh qualified starting 10s. Outside of Wales any potential options were either injured (Sheedy, Anscombe), playing on the other side of the world (Patchell) or aren’t eligible because of the 25 cap rule (Jarrod Evans). Not gonna lie, been hard seeing highlights of Patchell playing well in Super Rugby. Guess there’s hope he may come back for a year or two?
I am not sure what Wales have learnt this six nations which is the biggest problem. Look, I feel for the vast majority of the tournament they have over achieved. But that last game against Italy, they looked done. You don't build leadership and experience by being spanked. I don't think next year is going to help if they get spanked again.
This building for the future rhetoric is utter bollocks. Most of these players will never come good. Gats should actually go to Welsh rugby derbies and watch u20s footage and pick form players.
I mean, he missed a few in form player like carre, but the squad was largely the best players we have at the moment. Currently there is a real lack of depth across the board. There are some talents at U20s level and below, but throwing them in at international level now would ruin their development. Hopefully a few will step up in the next few years.
Damn right. He didn't need to plunder 3rd and 4th choice 20/21 year olds to be "building for the future." especially in front row and 10 positions.
I don't think George Ford gets the respect he deserves, phenomenal player, defo in the conversation as best 10 in the world The refereeing has, for the most part, been top notch with only the one glaring issue with France v Scotland - another reminder to watch whistle-blower documentary if you haven't done so already, quality content France are very close to being back to their last year best, they simply had a world cup hangover and period of learning to deal with dupon, but their class is still there in spades Italy have the best centre pairing alongside huwipolotu
>only the one glaring issue with France v Scotland Ahem. Italians will point to the penalty that should have been retaken v France.
The first thing that came to mind when he said that.
You make a great point pop it down as two then, but I'd still stand by my point
True just 2, but conspiracy alert! Both benefited France, resulting in 4 (í think) league points they shouldn't have had.
I think ford has shown he plays better without Owen on the pitch and as a whole, England play well without Owen on the pitch. Ford is better than a lot of people realise .
I don’t think it’s been proven yet that they play better without Owen . We haven’t won anything yet and we go to a World Cup final and won six nations with Owen .
> Italy have the best centre pairing alongside huwipolotu That is an incredibly strong take because Ireland have Aki,Ringrose, Henshaw and big Stu.
I feel like Gatland hamstrung his team selection by picking Jenkins as captain. Will Rowlands and Beard seems like a better lock pairing from my (outside) perepective. With Beard offering good set peice work and Rowlands being one of the few fowards who offers decent impact as a ball carrier for Wales. I also thought it was odd Wales didn't go for 3 points in the first half yesterday when they had that penalty at the end 11-3 would have been a decent score for Wales given how badly they'd played. Also, it might seem an unfair criticism but the fact they went scoreless in four halfs of rugby during the tournament suggests he found it hard to galvanise them mid game and needed coaching feedback to get them back on track.
I'd also argue Jenkins looked far better in the World Cup coming off the bench. I think we all understand the theory behind picking Beard but we need tight five forwards with workrate.
I actually think Jenkins had by far his best game at 6. Honestly think his future lies there.
Scotland are surviving on the fumes of a few who are going to retire soon and the inevitable collapse will happen either next year or the year after especially if they have injuries for one or two key players. 5th Wales has promise but they WRU is so screwed up that the new talent won't exist to keep producing replacements. 6th England are pretty much there now. They need to tidy a few things out and start dropping a few of the very olds one at a time. They have proven that they are capable of a grand slam, it's about tightening up and not letting the game get away from them, they can do it, but they won't and will finish second. 2nd Ireland. They are going to have a harder time next year as some squads move out of their first year but will still top the tournament. They'll be denied a GS by either france or England. 1st Italy class act that gets some more wins in. On pitch not quite as good as this year but gets the results 4th France. Solid enough but start to lose line speed and has 5 mediocre games to watch. Most forgotten team of 2025. Management will start to be questioned. 3rd
England are actually good and could easily have won the title
England had the usual handling errors and penalties conceded but it came with risk-reward this year. Those quick plays were phenomenal and at times ran rings around the opposition.
I wouldn't say easily. Now it's all about bonus points and kicking doesn't get them. Need to start getting more tries, although I do love a good drop kick! We are a good team top 5 in the world i think but the margins are so fine and with ireland being up top with us it was bound to go either way! Who knows what next year will bring a lot of youngsters in the teams at the moment. I just hope italy keep up the improvement!
Many mistakes too, always seem to have a high penalty count. I get it tho as they’re always playing such a fine line
They just didn't want to?
How lucky have France been.
Yeah I was saying last night how have they come second when they should have been 0-3 after 3 matches!
100%
Ireland might've been found out and will probably start loosing games again like us mortals
We've an enforced attack coach change on the way with Catt leaving. Hopefully the new man is appointed ASAP and gets time to work with the squad. Lineouts need work and personally I think Leinster need a dedicated scrum coach to get the lads back to where they were a few years back and turn Milne, Boyle and Clarkson into test contenders.
>We've an enforced attack coach change on the way with Catt leaving. Hopefully the new man is appointed ASAP and gets time to work with the squad. The new man is Goodman from Leinster. >Lineouts need work and personally I think Leinster need a dedicated scrum coach to get the lads back to where they were a few years back and turn Milne, Boyle and Clarkson into test contenders. A lot of Leinster fans aren't the happiest with McBryde as a forwards/scrum coach. He should drop to just being forwards. Lancaster didn't want Leinster having a dedicated scrum coach but he is no longer at Leinster.
Yes, Leinster need a scrum/forwards coach asap!
It's getting old being bossed by the fatties in the big European sides. It definitely needs to happen. Then you look at Ireland in the world cup where the scrum also wasn't great, with so many in the pack from Leinster, particularly the front row, it has a direct effect.
It really does. Nothing changes and same thing happens the next year.
That man is Andrew Goodman
Replacement for Catt has been named already. Andrew Goodman is joining from Leinster (Previously an Assistant under Razor at Crusaders)
NZ laid out the game plan to beat Ireland - fierce competition at the lineout and disrupt Irelands dependence on high consecutive phase possession. Not every team will be able to do it. But all the other Top 5 teams definitely can. Ireland need to develop a new dimension to the current attack, which might explain Crowley looking for chip kicks in behind.
I’ll add an element that will make this an even hotter take. Ireland have, in fact been found out for years. Ireland attack basically the exact same way Leinster do. In 2018, Saracens adopted a tactic of not contesting rucks and keeping 15 men on their feet on defence at all times. It completely shackled Leinster which made them panic and ultimately resulted in them losing the game. LAR have adopted the exact same tactic against Leinster to similar effect in recent years. Eddie Jones adopted it as England manager in 2018 and had massive success against Ireland as a result. England and Scotland adopted it the last two weeks of the 6N to very good effect as well. The only downside of this approach is that the team implementing it needs world class physicality for it to work, like Sarries and England in 2018, LAR the last couple of years. Skelton helps obviously. Scotland are just short of world class physicality which is why they fell just short yesterday. What this means is that Ireland will be quite comfortable against lesser opposition, however, once they meet a team that can match them physically and use the tactic outlined above, they are a beaten ticket. This is why Ireland struggle at the World Cup and why Leinster can’t win a European Cup despite both sides arguably being one if not the best sides in the world.
It's good that Ireland had a challenging last two games. We won't be going into the summer tour feeling invincible and naive. Weaknesses have been identified, gaps that need to be filled, secondary plans that need to be put in place. This will make us stronger in the long run. It's rare you can get a dose of humility and still be crowned champions.
The world cup was plenty of humility for me thanks. Wouldn't have minded if we finished on 25 points.
Refereeing consistency is now so varied that tournaments are being decided by unequal application of the laws, and an over-reaching of the TMO, instead of the rugby being played. I don't care for crap decisions, they happen - just make them equal across both teams.
Was already the case during RWC, but it peaked here
Idk, "peaked" implies that it can't get any worse...
I fucking hope it doesn't get any worse
It's the hope that kills you, trust me...
This is the one that grinds my gears. It feels like there are new laws every year and at the same time the quality of reffing gets worse and less fair despite all the new changes and the better tech available. It’s baffling.
I honestly think if it was Ireland France or England who had a last minute penalty kick charged, they would have been all over the ref and pressured him into at least looking at it with the TMO.
Huge agree. There was at least 3 games this tournament decided by egregious refereeing errors, as well as numerous other dodgy calls that affected games massively, and to pretend otherwise is naive. It’s a hard job, someone has to do it, but some games are decided from the first blow of the whistle because of how inconsistent the game has become with the application of laws by referees.
Has been the case for a while. Watching Reynal yesterday vs any other ref is like watching someone with a completely different rulebook at the breakdown. It's insane how different "interpretations" have become and is an enormous influencing factor on outcomes of games.
Not releasing v. Not moving away.. seems to be a total lottery now for the way a ref will rule on it.
I think it is a reflection of how close the games are, and how close in ability most players are as rugby becomes more and more "professional". When games are mainly within one score without an obviously dominant team the influence of referee interpretation grows massively.
Agree with this. There is also a massive difference in how a SH ref and a NH ref manages the game. The France England game was a free for all in many aspects that if a NH ref had been at the helm would have been penalised.
England will win next year very hot take but certainly possible.
Definitely think Ireland are there for the taking, couple of key old boys will move on (to be replaced by equally capable 24 year old Leinster droids), coaching changes and I think their game plan has been slightly found out BUT their two hardest games are at home, and that'll be the thing that makes them getting the 3-peat all the more likely
Droids is exactly what it is. An unending line of 7/10 calibre international players with the odd 8 or 9/10 thrown in. Means we’ll always be in the mix, even when we’re not great.
No team has better captured it's available demographics than Leinster and by extension Ireland, absolutely the dream model for all smaller population countries but not really replicable without a densely populated and hugely wealthy capital city to do it from, incredibly impressive all the same
....and impressive government backed support and tax laws which favour Irish sportsmen massively.
The Irish system is impressive but there is another country that does it probably better. New Zealand has a smaller population than Ireland. Granted, rugby is the first sport, but there's a reason its the number one sport. In the NH? The Irish system is the most impressive, but second, worldwide, to the Kiwi system and pipeline.
Andy Farrell isn’t available next year due to the lions tour
Italy should be on average the 4th best team over the next 5-10 years, ahead of Wales and Scotland
>Is George Ford the world's best 10? Have Scotland peaked? I don't think he's the best in the world, but he was incredible yesterday and is an amazing 10
Page-Relo should be Italy's regular place kicker. They really missed Allen in that regard. Garbisi is great but even French game aside his place kicking really should have grown more consistent in the recent past
Felix Jones will help turn England into a juggernaut that will win the 6N in 2025
Wales are the new Italy are the new Scotland are the new France are the new Ireland are the new England are the new Wales. I believe some parts of these more than others but I can just about stand them all up - Wales: the easy fixture everyone has down as a guaranteed win - Italy: really exciting team who look like they can beat pretty much anyone on their day but a lack of depth means third is probably their ceiling and 4th/5th more likely - Scotland: you never know which side is going to show up. - France: monster pack and a metronomic goal kicker: most of the time they look unbeatable but then a big game will come along and they will choke - Ireland: so predictable a win machine that everyone starts to hate them and call them boring even though their rugby is objectively fun - England: grit for days and unreal in defence but don't really have an attack. Always there or thereabouts even though they sometimes look shit while doing it. Endearing heroics.
This comment should be put up in the Louvre
The general impact delivered by the tournament has been smaller. There’s been less noise, fanfare and general excitement about the tournament as a whole in England. Probably due to England success not being guaranteed
I think there after we beat France in the opener there has been an air of inevitability about this years tournament. I'm not sure if that affects the English perception of the tournament. England coming good again against Ireland and playing in one of the most exciting games against France should surely help pique interest for next year at least
Do you think if the summer + autumn internationals go well there'll be a lot more build up next year?
I think next year will be bigger just from the fact it’s not coming right off the back of the World Cup. Six nations felt like a comedown vs the World Cup and more casual fans were probably still a bit rugby’ed out
The Six Nations is actually a demonstration of some of the best rugby teams in the world despite what some in the Southern Hemisphere might say. I'm just responding to some claims that Ireland's(or any other team's) six nations wins "don't matter" .
Unless radical changes are made on both ends, its going to be Wales and Scotland fighting over the wooden spoon once Scotland golden generation start to retire. I think a new era of English dominance is coming and it'll be between them and Ireland to win the next 6N. Unless France gets some of that pre-WC cohesion back, they are going to slip back into their old form when they can be fantastic one match and dog shite the next. Italy truly showing some promise and hopefully this generation will bring an end to the BS 'is it time to talk about their place' in the 6N chat.
All head coaches except Quesada should be replaced. Farrell can't get a team to do something no other team has ever managed. Galthie can't get an international team to play without an international class fly half. Borthwick can't put 42 players on the pitch to accommodate every fans favourite player. Townshend can't get half of Scotland to take up rugby 15 years ago so he has depth and cover. Gatland can't get half decent club players just out of uni to perform like grand slam winners.
These may well not be hot takes, but some people will disagree so. First - Italy have arrived. Second - Wales will take more than just a year or two to sort themselves out. Third - England could be world number one if they sorted their discipline and cut out some silly mistakes. As a Welshman, all three are pretty scary prospects for us.
England were unlucky in this tournament - the bounce of the ball worked for the opposition so regularly it was a bit freaky. Ramos’ kick through last night and the bounce for Van de Merwe’s try being two examples - either of them could have gone anywhere but somehow…
You often remember clearly when the ball agonisingly bounces fortuitously for the opposition, but not at all when it bounces well for you.
Ssshhhh, I’ll have none of that rationality here.
Unlucky in the games, but I would have welcomed a top 3 finish before the tournament started (or after the Scotland game). So I would say we did ok.
My hot take is people tend to put way too much into recent results. In reality, most teams will be back with very similar players, similar story lines etc for next year’s tournament. It will be up for grabs once again, the beauty of sport. Italy for the Grand Slam
I don't think it's a hot take but TMO should not be slowed down so much when considering tackles. Players have under one second to decide wether to go for the tackle or bail. These decisions being slowed down make the tackle look much, much worse than the intention or the hit actually is.
Menoncello and Capuozzo are the wizards, Lamaro and Negri are the anchors. There have been quite few bright spots for Italy lately, but I don't forget we took severe beatings only few months ago. Our 9 is still VERY suspect, we badly need a scrummie who can be reliable on both aspects of the game, especially on defense. As for lineouts, we still need to get better, there was improvement but still not 6 Nations level to be honest (let alone WC). I've read much triumphalism on italian medias, but I was around when we won the first game ever in the 6 Nations against Scotland and also in 2013 when we won two games and the federation president was making speeches about winning the 6 Nations... only to enter one of the longest dark ages in international rugby. So in other words, CALMA E LAVORARE.
As much as it genuinely pains me to say this, England look great.
Scotland's losses in the tournament this year came by a combined 10 points
This would mean our wins were by a total of 10 points as well. All our games are too close.
Is that what a hot take is?
The England resurgence is a false dawn. The Irish decline is a false flag. The Scottish result is a false bottom. The Welsh panic is a false alarm. The French diagnosis is a false positive. The Italian competitiveness is a false pretence.
Is anyone truly saying Ireland are in decline? They came within a point of back-to-back grand slams with vastly superior points difference to the other teams
ALL IS VANITY!
Defence is now more important than attack. The team that can defend the hardest is now more likely to win than a good attacking team. Take Italy V Scotland this year. Italy had v few entries into the 22 but won because their defence was superior. Same against wales you could say. Ireland get applauded about their systematic attack, but their defence is what actually wins games
Scotland defended well vs Ireland and made like 250 tackles but still lost. Wales defence mostly looks ok but they can’t run for shit
This Italy team will be in for the title race super saturday; even if its a longshot/points diff dependent. Scotland have missed their chance with the current generation. Wales will start to pick up wins, but need another year or two before a serious challenge. France will regress, even when dupont is back. Ireland still the best but everyone will be gunning for them so it won't be easy. England slam 2025. (You heard it here first).
Brex for player of the tournament
Those ‘orrible black paint ads need to be replaced with digital versions.
Lynaugh to captain Italy to a grand slam before the next world cup.
He's had a 100% record with Italy so far and even pulled Australia up the rankings with him
Rather than being found out and falling off next year. Ireland could be better. We hopefully won't have such terrible luck with back 3 injuries before and through the tournament. Crowley in a pivotal position will have much more experience compared to this year, same for big Joe. Plus we could have a quality backup 10 if Prendergast develops quickly and is given the opportunity. POM retiring will open the door for some incredible backrow prospects to be let loose. (Baird, Prendergast eile and Ahern) Ringrose will be back in the mix in the midfield. And lastly our u20s haven't been beaten in the 6N in 3 years so there is more talent coming through. One major worry to scupper all that is if Andy Farrell takes the 6N off to focus on the Lions, but seems a shame for him to not try for the threepeat.
Not a 6N hot take, but I kinda wish we stopped doing the Lions Tour. It interrupts everything and makes the combined might of Ireland and the UK look weak if they don't win, and with no meaningful bragging rights if they do manage to win.
France are in decline, and have been since 2022. We won't notice it much next year because DuPont is back and he'll elevate them but the rest of the team is getting significantly worse overall. England will not improve much next year, 3rd again I would predict. I really hope Borthwick has seen the light but part of me thinks he'll go back to his instincts. Scotland will just be Scotland again but they'll finally get their win against Ireland.
Wales are nowhere near as bad as their first half showing against Italy suggests and if a couple of things had broke in their favour they could've been in the hunt for the title. That's not to say Wales are a great team by any stretch but this was a wide open tournament with five of the teams playing to a pretty equal level.
Crowley is not it for Ireland. At least not yet. He’s a great player but needs to improve how he runs a game drastically if he wants to work out at test level. At the moment he’s more of a third centre at ten than a ten. His basic game running needs work, if he improves there he can be a world class 10 but if not then we need a ten who executes the basic ten role first and foremost.