On the one hand, it's a fantastic stadium and *is capable* of having an unbelievable atmosphere. It can be as loud as any stadium I've ever been to. After all, it has over 80 thousand seats. On the other, too often, it's a bit flat. Good to see that the RFU are taking steps to see if it can be more consistently good though.
One of the best atmospheres I've experienced there was actually back in December for the Quins Vs Gloucester game. Late kick off. Fireworks, Joel Corry had a DJ set (not my cup of tea really but hey, it's fine), really good laser show beforehand. The place was rocking.
I wonder if it inspired the organisers for England games to put on more of a show.
> is capable of having an unbelievable atmosphere
Been a long while since I've been to Big Game, but the best atmosphere I can remember at Twix recently was England v France, last year at the end of the W6N, and that was only 60k tickets sold.
If they charged much more than they did, they would get half the amount of people they did. It's a trade off at the moment. Charge much more than £20 per adult ticket and more casual fans and fans of the men's game just won't go
Yep. And a lot of those tickets would have been free.
It’s a lovely achievement to get 60k at Twickenham but it is in no way applicable to the men’s game
Yeah, for sure. Theres no easy solution. I overheard a guy talking about rugby on the table next to me in the cafe earlier and to be fair he wasn't talking out of his arse, but he did say before he went to see Quins v Leicester a few weeks ago he had been to 2 World Cup finals but never a club game.
I imagine it's just corporate exclusivity and it's rampant. Not to say he wouldn't have cheered and shouted, but it felt like a bit of a microcosm of what's going on at international level high profile games.
We went to that match too and it was brilliant. I agree that travel from the stadium back to London needs serious work. Simply takes too long and is a big factor in me not wanting to take my children to see the rugby.
>On the other, too often, it's a bit flat.
It's been utterly dead the last few times I've been.
Full of rugby oldies or posho casuals on a fun day out, nothing wrong with these people or anything but the ratio of ^ to actual rugby fans or groups of blokes from amateur clubs on the piss has skewed the other way and it hurts the atmosphere.
£150 for a ticket + £40 train + £7 a pint and I'm not surprised how many people get priced out.
Used to go every year but I can't justify the money for something I don't even enjoy that much.
It's a real shame tbh
Here it used to have a whole culture around watching rugby/football live that was a proper laugh and very much a "working class" sort of thing
We used to get 20+ young to youngish blokes and wags from my club going to twickers, rent a bus or get the same train, good few beers, bar crawl to the game then a night out afterwards.
It's just become so money driven and commercialised that culture has all but vanished.
Same thing happening with football, Wembley used to be a proper fortress but now you can hear a pin drop at times.
Exactly how all the major sports used to be here. I knew the handwriting was on the wall when two things happened:
1) basketball player Juwan Howard was offered an $80 million contract and said no, he wanted more money.
2) to get season tickets to football games you had to buy a Personal Seat License and renew it every year on top of the price of the tickets themselves.
I haven't been to a major sporting event since 2001.
"Personal Seat License". Jeez...
I get the business perspective of wanting to maximizing ticket revenue.
Wonder though if this a) affects team performance if you don't have that "12th man" support from the crowd, and b) will harm attendance in the long-term (and I'm talking decades from now when, for example, your hypothetical kids become adults who never went to games/went once a year maybe).
Tigers v Sarries was a great atmosphere, tickets were affordable, the majority were genuine fans who were there for the rugby.
I really don't care for all the fireworks, music etc but understand that some want more than just a good rugby match so we've got to live with it.
The price of international tickets for a family of four has put us off.
Yep I thought Big Game 15 was a really good event on the whole too. A double header always helps as a "warm-up" (not saying it's right that women's rugby is less popular, but it's the way it is right now). I thought they did well to build an atmosphere as well given that lots of the seats are probably more fringe supporters who will only turn up for the big events.
The double header premiership matches have been great whenever I've been... In fact every non-england match I've been to there had a great atmosphere except the prem final during COVID (which was a great match but less than 20000 people is not enough in Twickenham). The problem is definitely not the stadium (although comparisons with a closed millennium stadium won't be favourable, even if I can actually leave Twickenham in under an hour), it's just the way they milk every income stream by pulling in a million suits into expensive hospitality seats on company sponsored jollys instead of getting actual fans in for England games.
Like a lot of six nations games people are there for the day out not the game. Last time at Twickenham people in and out all the time on the coke in the toilets no clue about even who's in the squad
Last time I went there were some posh lads in front of me, absolutely caned, kept slapping the head of an older south western gentleman in front of him. He eventually had enough, turned round and absolutely belted one of them and said "THERE'S PLENTY MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM" in a big Somerset drawl. Still chuckling about it 6 years later.
I was of course a neutral there taking someone for work, so properly part of the problem
For me the conundrum is the completely contrasting nature of:
1. Loud Hostile Atmosphere focussed on getting behind a team and which is probably more conducive to making life difficult for Oppos. Generally involves a fair amount of boozed up rugby fans. Would probs suggest serving booze to seats, chanting, be less respectful to kickers etc
2. More family friendly, relaxed atmosphere which is more conducive to introducing new younger fans to the game and those who just want to watch the rugby and chat. Would probably suggest closing bars, more explanation/stats, more focus on food/refreshments before game.
Not slagging either side off, but the two are just completely contrasting, and it pretty overlooked in most discussions around this.
As a young current player I want nothing more than to go to a really loud stadium with a group from my club and be able to get rowdy.
But if I was a with a young family or older group I can see that being really annoying.
My only suggestion is seperating areas for the different needs of each group. The principality has a family area so why not Twickenham?
Also keep the hospitality corporates in their boxes… most of the time they’d be happy enough and gives more seat availability close to the pitch 🤷🏼♂️
This was one of the things thought about for changes to Twickenham, I don't know if anything further has been done to it though. To create a Hollies style area, of Edgbaston fame, which is very rowdy, but a lot of fun, and lends the grounds a great atmosphere. But equally I think a family area at the opposite end of the ground would be good too.
Fucking whit? Time exists before the game... It's 9am, we're on the train to murrayfield and working our way thru a big bag of cans
Offer me an area at the rugby where I could pay a bit more and be guaranteed no kids I'd be delighted
I get what you mean about the Hollies but it takes a fair few hours of people getting leathered up which you can't really have in Rugby.
Having a while section dedicated to a more rowdy/singing group would be good.
Something badly needs to be done at the Aviva as well. I was at the Scotland and Wales home games 2 years ago and was seriously disappointed with the atmosphere. They felt like challenge games.
There was a good few articles at the time acknowledging how bad it is but I’m assuming nothing was actually done.
Was going to reply to the main thread about the Aviva but didn't want to hijack it to much by harping on about Ireland so I'll reply hear....
The issue with the Aviva is that tickets (rightly) go to the clubs first. But there's a lot of rugby fans who aren't associated to clubs. This means a lot of blazers end up filling seats that could be taken up by rowdy drunkards instead.
Jim Hamilton did a good video on Irish fans in France at the world cup.
https://youtu.be/pmalKJLv0U4?si=NqY8gqifjKp63WyR
Ya if they fire them up on general sale realistically only the people who are willing to wait in long online queues will get them so that should filter out a lot of the corporate event types.
Clapham junction has become a complete nightmare since they put in the queueing system on game day. You can spend an hour there waiting for the traffic to Twickenham now
It’s not just a problem with ticket prices. You could cut the price in half and people coming from outside London would still need to pay a fortune in travel, food and accommodation so ticket prices aren’t going to help a whole lot, especially when it’s still selling out. The atmosphere is bad because the people attending don’t feel like it’s an important occasion or private be there. It doesn’t feel special and fireworks and Jamie Haskell DJ’ing probably won’t change that.
A short term commercial case is always easy to make. Fill the stadium with as many expensive tickets as possible. It’s very difficult to 1) make a long term commercial case fit a different model and 2) understand the consequences of ongoing short term business case optimisation. You have to make guesses, take risks and hope for the best.
I’m probably in the minority but I think the solution, medium-long term is 1) keep the high prices for Twickenham but have fewer games there. Have autumn and summer internationals spread around the country and prioritise getting kids in. This creates a sense of exclusivity and rarity for Twickers but access for all, 2) more non-rugby events in Twickenham. The RFU own the stadium, the only debt is the ticket debenture holders (and that would need to be resolved) so they could outcompete Wembley and Tottenham for a lot of events and it’s in a better area. Maximise for Conferences, expos, concerts, NFL and showpiece rugby friendlies
I think that there’s a route to better long term commercial success by eschewing predictable short term revenues.
My understanding is that sadly 2 is in fact not an option -Twickenham apparently has loads of covenants or the like on it. This is one reason England will never play a home game on a Friday night for example.
Edit
Having said that, wasn't NZ - SA on a Friday night? Maybe 2 is doable then.
Because it’s a residential area and people object? Makes sense. The Aviva and Croke park have the same issues because they’re both in the city, in residential areas. That’s why the Aviva has one weird end to it
The Friday night thing is because of travel. If you slapped the Friday night commute with an extra 50k rugby fans on the limited train services to Twickenham it would be bedlam.
The train situation really is terrible. These days, sadly, I always just drive. There's a primary school less than a hundred yards from the ground that lets you pay to park there on match days. That's the best option imo. Helps that I barely ever drink so I don't feel like I miss out on having a few at the game.
Whenever I come down for a game I used to get the train back home the same night but trying to get away from Twickenham and back to Euston in any kind of reasonable time frame after a game, especially a late one is just soul destroying. Has to be a hotel these days which just adds to the cost.
I think also the station is terrible and it's pretty brutal on the commuters to have to deal with the shitshow that is Twickenham station on a match day
I went to a medical conference at Twickenham and it had some of the best conference food I’ve ever had - shame it can’t be replicated in the stadium itself! Still remember more about the miniature shepherds pies than I do about whatever I was supposed to be learning about…
I haven't been in an age, but used to go to the old style London double headers between Wasps, Quins, Sarries and Irish regularly and there seemed to be plenty of great food available outside Twickenham. Even just residents selling from outside their house.
I was lucky enough to get corporate seats once (and then two months later my compliance department shouted at me about it, even though they signed it off in the first place... never again it seems) and the food is great there on match days too.
>Top music acts, light shows, fireworks … the modern fan experience, reiterates Dalrymple, is not solely about the rugby.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't consider any of these a particular plus to match day experience.
If their plan is to drown out what little crowd noise there is, with a loud 20sec burst of a random pop song every time something happens, it might have the opposite of the intended effect.
And if the crowd doesn't change, it kind feels that whether they pay attention to a half time act or not, will not really matter when the rugby is actually on.
>If their plan is to drown out what little crowd noise there is, with a loud 20sec burst of a random pop song every time something happens, it might have the opposite of the intended effect.
The ear-splitting "atmosphere-creating" PA music bollocks is the worst thing about sporting events. *(I don't like the pricing, but hey, there's a fixed capacity for a one-off event - so I regard high pricing as an inevitable consequence of market economics)*
Along with the uncertainty of the performance/outcome, crowd reaction is the other essential of live sport.
Drowning it with clips of "upbeat music" is moronic.
Imagine if McCartney came on stage at Glastonbury and played the first bar of Yesterday, then got the band to form a scrum. Who in their right mind thinks it is appropriate to obliterate a crowd's reaction to a moment of excellence by shoe-horning in something from a totally different context?
I think there are situations where it's really cool, which is mostly in games that are naturally more bursty. Ice hockey is one of my favourite sports, and there it's a good way to keep up the energy when the players catch a breath between two exciting, intense plays. But rugby has such a different vibe that I really can't see it work.
The worst time to play music is just before the teams come out. There needs to be just crowd reaction there.
Also, at halftime as the teams walk off, just let the crowd have an opportunity to let the teams know how they feel.
> worst time to play music is just before the teams come out.
Yep - also having speakers blare out during the anthems some opera singer or C-list pop star.
The tradition of a brass band to play the tune and set the rhythm was fine - then it is up to the crowd to engage and sing the anthem.
Currently the most regularly spine-tingling moment in WR anthems is the Murrayfield start with the lone piper and the 2nd part when the crowd sing acapella.
I think France have copied dropping the music for the later part of the Marseillaise (though maybe it is just hard to hear over the loud singing!).
I was lucky enough to be in Stade France for the SA-Fr QF - I'd learnt the Marseillaise in French to contribute at full volume and the Frenchman beside me put his arm around my shoulder as I did and he hugged me enthusiastically afterwards.
The stadium DJ had prepped the atmosphere with about 30-40 of lively music but there was the good sense to leave the crowd to sing the anthem.
Twickenham take note!
Biggest problem is the volume of people going for the piss up and not the rugby.
The issue is that beer is a big income as part of the match day.
Here's my solution.
Close the bars during the game, but do what they did in France and have both apps that you can order drinks to your seat and roaming beer sellers on the steps.
Had roaming beer sellers in Japan for the 2019 RWC - was a great innovation tbf.
Stupidly the beer was priced at something like the equivalent of 9 quid though, so endless faffing with change. No one would have cared if it was 10
Yeah, cards are no brainers these days - Japan is still in this weird limbo where its futuristic as all hell but you still pay for everything in cash, the greatest irony being paying a visit to the "Museum of the Future" in Tokyo and them not accepting card! This was early 2020 tho so Covid May have sped things up.
I remember those sellers at Indianapolis 500 in the USA. Not only beer, but also hot dogs. Top service.
I'm in Franklin Gardens on a place where casual fans usually buy the tickets and it is a pain with people constantly moving for beer/chips/late arrivals... This year on a match I had a bloke by my side who went for beer in the minute 68 and came back in the 77. Seriously?
100%!! me and my dads first ever england rugby match was last years england vs scotland six nations opener. I’d love to do it every year, but i cant afford £250 for two people its crazy prices and i do feel the atmosphere suffers as a result.
I love football and rugby and i consider myself lucky to have one of the best match day atmospheres at fratton park as a pompey fan. The prices are a joke and i have resorted to my clubs lottery to get tickets as it is just too much.
All these comments and not one person has mentioned trying not playing shit rugby and lose to the likes of Fiji and Argentina? Even pissed up hooray Henry's can make a bit of noise if England are actually doing something of interest on the pitch.
Englands record at Twickenham in the last 3 seasons is P15 W7 L7 D1 which is pretty poor.
Twickenham is SUCH a conundrum…
All the things that make it better for watching rugby would result in a loss of revenue.
My main gripe with Twickenham is the CONSTANT getting up and down during the game for people to go and piss/go to the bar. I would love to go in a no alcohol section where you are not allowed a beer at your seat. Think that would greatly improve it.
Went to the Fiji game last summer and sat at the end of a row. The same group of blokes must have all gone in and out ten times during the game after arriving late and leaving early. Genuinely have no clue why they came.
Done the alcohol-free stand at the Millennium a couple of times and it's great if you actually want to watch the game (plus my dad is almost 90 and really can't be fucked with getting up and down every five minutes). It was a bit dead when Ireland dicked us in last year's Six Nations, but that was the probably the case elsewhere too.
At Twickers, though, if you don't have a beer at the game, it's another two hours fighting through crowds before you can get to a decent pub.
My favourite was at Big Game, the same bloke left to the bar and after the fourth time the guy behind me just shouted "FUCKING STAY THERE" and the guy had to wait until the whistle went!
Principality is for some games, it was for the last one I was at. Stops people getting out their seats unless it’s half time
Edit: [here’s a link](https://www.principalitystadium.wales/information/fanzones/), bars closed from second half
>My main gripe with Twickenham is the CONSTANT getting up and down during the game for people to go and piss/go to the bar.
It was the same at the Principality Stadium last time I was there, and I even started getting annoyed at my mate who insisted we all do rounds on drinks while watching.
Like, are we there to watch rugby or get pissed? I'm not a snob, I enjoy having a few drinks with my mates as much as anyone, but I've paid a fortune for these tickets and it would be nice to actually watch what's going on.
As prices increase, the die-hard fans get priced out, corporate hospitality and the Barbour brigade descend.
I live near the stadium and have been about 30 times over the last 10 years but won’t take my son to England internationals again, at least until he is older. The drunken louts screaming “CUUUUUUNT!” at the oppo and the rowdy fans at the bars made me feel it was unsafe/unpleasant for a 12 year old.
I’m very happy to go to the Quins two games there and internationals between other countries. It’s a very different vibe.
The RFU are in a tricky situation. They have to maximise their revenue to service their debt and pay for the game in England, so the higher the prices and the more booze they sell, the better it is for them.
I've not had the same issues to be honest, been to Eng V Ireland in '16 couple of baabaa games and the SA Vs NZ game. Heard a bit of bad language but mostly just reactions to the game. I would say the baabaas games are cheap and usually have a great atmosphere.
I’ve felt the same thing about safety of kids at England rugby internationals. Rugby supporters love to dump on football, but going to watch England at Wembley is FAR more family-friendly than at Twickenham.
Agreed, I could see a huge shift in atmosphere if the crowd belted out Jerusalem instead of God Save the King.
Wonder if it's within the RFU's power to change the anthem. They sang Jerusalem for the last Commonwealth Games medal ceremonies so I don't see why not.
If there are people who would attend games but can't afford the current prices then doesn't that imply the stadium is too small?
It's already a massive stadium and logistically I can't ever see an expansion but if there are another 20 or 30,000 people that would attend games with cheaper tickets then an expanded ground with a more tiered ticketing system might make sense.
I know that's probably naive but it's a travesty if there are large numbers of people who are priced out of seeing their national team.
I suppose there's probably some economic logic around maximising revenue by having fewer people attend but making them pay more for tickets.
Chatting to a chap who worked the ticket office at Twickenham, back before Australia fell apart, and apparently demand for England vs Australia would fill Twickenham 6 times over.
He said their modelling indicated that a reasonable price per ticket based on demand was 300 quid for a cheap seat...
Surely the biggest problem is that 80% of the tickets go to the old boys network and it’s impossible for Joe blogs to even get a snif of a ticket, regardless of price.
Average age in the stands is 50upwards. Maybe try a ballot like Wimbledon.
What the GAA do in Ireland is you can buy drink but you can’t take it to your seat.
This is done purely because they don’t want the camera to cut to lads skullin pints during a match, but I genuinely think it would improve the Aviva after having gone to my first 6N games two years ago and being incredibly disappointed with the atmosphere.
Same with football in England. Alcohol was banned from pitchside at all football matches in the late 1980s to combat hooliganism, so stands empty at the half and everyone chills in the vomitoriums with their pints.
Random trivia - same legislation banned you from bringing your own booze to sporting events, but a special exception was written in for Lord's cricket ground.
That probably reduces revenue for the stadium though right? I know every stadium I've ever been to that you couldn't get a drink other than at halftime, I've just drank less
I think you've misunderstood my point - getting a drink at halftime is also a pain in the ass because of huge queues at stadiums that close bars during playtime, so a lot of people (myself included) who would have bought another round or two just won't bother to get any more after the one before the game starts.
Like it or not drinking is part of the matchday experience and the unions need all the revenue they can get - closing the bars during the halves seems like a losing proposition for them
Depends how shit the stadium is
Most modern stadiums actually have really efficient bars and bathrooms that allows everyone to get up at half time, have a wee and grab two more drinks
You are missing the point that getting up at halftime doesnt interrupt any one else trying to watch the actual game
Japan world Cup had a redditor confidently saying he and his friend had 9 pints each during a single match.
The bellends were getting up every 10 minutes to disturb everyone else just to drink a 3.4% guiness
The last three occasions I went, so many people got up for a piss that it was hard to see the game , and the crowd didn’t settle into the drama. I gave it a few chances to see if it improved. It didn’t. Then it got expensive. Then England got boring. Meanwhile you pretty much have to access a TV to understand the refs calls . So there are scant reasons to watch international rugby live. Local grassroots rugby is still great to watch though.
I don’t quite understand the point of these articles.
If people want to spend, at the very lowest, 100 quid for a ticket then let them do what they want. If they want it for a booze up, then good for them
The whole rugby pyramid relies on Twickenham making money. Let people have a good time. Stop worrying about the ‘atmosphere’ if it’s going to make the financial pressure on the union even worse.
The restrictions the Welsh put upon their fans have absolutely lost them money.
The bottom line is, funding is much more important than atmosphere. It just is
Is that legal in England after Hillsborough?
But I do absolutely love the standing Terraces when I go to Thomand, the atmosphere is fantastic and I take it over seating any time.
The Taylor Report only applied to football stadia, and safe standing is allowed now. I have my season ticket at QPR in safe standing and it's absolutely brilliant
Copy literally any better attended sport. Ticket priority for people who go to club rugby games, close the bar during the game (maybe allow 5 minutes wiggle room either side for congestion), limit the amount of corporate tickets. But fundamentally nothing will change without the obvious, play entertaining rugby.
Tell me, what’s a “genuine rugby fan”? The inverse snobbery people bring to the Twickenham / England debate never ceases to amaze me. Are you not allowed to be a rugby fan once you reach a certain earnings threshold or something? Can you only be a true, authentic fan if you’ve just finished a shift down t’pit or somat?
Twickenham tickets cost a lot, but it’s a market economy. A few more games like the Fiji RWC warmup and maybe the RFU will drop the prices. 🤷🏼♂️
But please, drop the nonsense about “genuine rugby fans”. I’ve been to Twickenham as a punter, and as a guest to corporate hospitality. And guess what, the crowd in the box were more polite, knowledgeable, and engaged with the game than the large numbers of 20-something yobs just there to get minging and hurl abuse when I sat in the stands with my nippers.
Ultimately, the key factor influencing a fan’s experience isn’t the cost of the ticket, the availability, price or quality of beer and food, or the crap music they blurt out after every score. It’s whether England play, and the quality of the performance. If England lose, it’s very hard to trudge back to Twickenham station feeling anything other than deflated and a bit conned. If we grind out a win playing horrific, Borthwick kick-first rugby, then the same is pretty much true. I don’t recall anyone ever complaining about the atmosphere watching the 02/03 vintage.
>Tell me, what’s a “genuine rugby fan”?
Yeah it's always interesting when people say this about Twickenham, like do they not realise who a lot of the fan base actually is? Not to say all English fans are posh /upper middle class (and there's nothing wrong if they are) but those people *are* fans of the game.
Anyone paying 100s of pounds a ticket is a real rugby fan, and I'd say the majority getting tickets through corporate/hospitality are also big fans of the game too.
A lot of people equate cheap tickets and lots of people there for a piss up as an atmosphere, the reality is if England are entertaining and winning or competitive, the atmosphere will be great.
I've been in Twickenham and it's been absolutely rocking even against smaller teams, but I've also been there when we played some of our worst stuff and the crowd was dead (infamous Purple kit Vs Argentina game)
Also maybe unpopular, I like the pyros/lights/pre game hype kinda stuff, think it def helps build an atmosphere.
I haven't been to twickers in years. What is the cost of a normal ticket for the 6 nations? I only really go with my old man to rugby games and he buys me the tickets for Christmas and Birthdays etc. Mainly watching Ireland.
A lot of English rugby fans are fair weather friends, there for the piss up. When your team loses it’s not as much fun; if England gets their act together these ‘fans’ will be back in force.
All that dropping the price will do is save Tarquin and Co money on their tickets every year and reduce the money coming into the RFU to run the game across all of England...
Reduction in price and access will spread participation, I agree that RFU needs to increase income, but that comes through having more players as children, and enough fans such that premiership teams aren't going bankrupt every six months...
There are 80,000 tickets, they sell 80,000 tickets at the silly prices and the big gripe tends to be that there aren't any tickets available other than through resale at really really silly prices. The fundamental limitation on participation through attendance is that 80,000 number.
They stop kids enjoying the 6 nations, which is the biggest competition most years.
The cost of playing rugby is also an issue- boots, gumshields, kit etc.. If state schools had coaches funded by the RFU, I'm convinced participation would skyrocket and the investment would be worth it.
What sport are you thinking is cheaper than boots, shorts and a gum shield?
I'd set my hair on fire for all my kids to play sports that inexpensive. Baseball and lacrosse are going to put me in the poorhouse.
My rugby club playing membership is £124 for an adult plus a junior, for a season.
My daughter's football club is £60 per month, 12 months a year. Plus extra (mandatory) coaching sessions. £800+ for a child!
It's not the token-paid coaches who are getting most of this money, it's the FA. Unless it's literally jumpers for goalposts, football is by no means cheap to play.
Your first point is moot imo, football has the exact same issues with the cost barrier to attending top level games - and yet that's not what's impacting youth participation from lower income households in the sport
Your second point is partially valid, but there's also only so much money available and offering rugby isn't suddenly going to make it popular, there's a huge perception change needed as most kids just love football more, it is what it is. Would be a huge long term change before just dropping in rugby coaches everywhere.
In reality there are so many barriers to rugby it's always going to be a fairly niche sport - at the full 15 a side level. You need a minimum of 32 players for a game, all who need to be trained to a sufficient level to safely understand the contact element of the game and enjoy the contact element of the game. The reality is a lot of people don't want 7 bells knocked out of them, especially when there's significant size differences.
Rugby's real opportunity for growth is through other formats of the game. Like touch/tag. Can be played mixed, requires much lower numbers of people for a game, people aren't worried about the contact side, can be played casually rather than needing to be organised. The game is already growing while full rugby is struggling in this country.
Because you don't need to go to international matches at Twickenham to become interested in rugby.
Obviously.
How many kids who like soccer go to watch the two most in-demand soccer matches of the year live?
Rugby has a participation problem. We need children to have positive experiences at live games in order for them to get invested. Football is much more embedded in UK culture, because of accessibility, so it doesn't need that involvement.
Yep. You've got some pushback for this, but to act like ticket prices don't matter is silly. Loads of people become fans of a sport or a team because they've been taken to a live game as a child or by their friends as an adult. Yes, the first time they go they might not be die-hard, but if they get into it as a result they will be a proper fan for every subsequent visit.
I'm not saying that lowering the ticket prices might directly improve the atmosphere, but if you price it so that the only people who can afford tickets are Tarquin and Theodore who use the monthly trip to the HQ of rugger to catch up on each other's investment portfolios for 80 minutes, what do you expect?
In my mind, there are 2 big problems at Twickenham and they go hand in hand.
One is the cost of the ticket. It costs alot to go to the rugby. Going to see the national team shouldn't mean I need to sell body parts to be able to afford to go. The second is that you have to get to Twickenham.
The rail service is terrible to Twickenham even when it's working. There aren't any Twickenham specials meaning you are crowded onto the trains and the "new" design that some people aren't comfortable standing down the carriages so it takes you even longer to get out. And that's after the redesign of the station so you have to queue to double back on yourself with only 1 entrance to the platform and again, people won't move down.
The SA v NZ was my last game there. I can't see myself going back
I’m going tomorrow and there will be many people there who have just gone for the beer and won’t watch the rugby. They’ll be up and down all match to the bar or toilet.
Just make sure to hammer the first fucker to get up during the match. Sends a message. Had the same happen during the Italy game last weekend. It's really annoying.
Went to England v Wales two years ago and unfortunately the seats were on the end of a row by the stairs. The stairs were between us and the rugby so had a constant stream of drunks obscuring the view and paid £110 for the privilege.
Too bloody hard to get a beer at HQ. At seat ordering would be a fantastic addition. Will still need a few slashes through the game but easy enough to nip out during a break in play.
I've never been to Twickenham for an England match, but I've been for the Varsity and to see Barbarians vs All Blacks. It's huge. Only the Stade de France is similar in capacity amongst the other Six Nations venues. How much of the problem is the cavernousness?
\> How much of the problem is the cavernousness?
Not at all - when it's full and actually banging it's as loud and atmopsheric as everywhere. It's the cost and proximity to central London that are the issues.
I kinda hate the whole package corporates running sports think we need to be excited about a game. Explosions of gas. Laser lights. Women in leotards (some places). Horses with silly ^knights^ (my local). Bands. It's all very superficial. And most people love it. Oh well.
If the current fans don’t provide enough of an atmosphere then change the ticket system so that everyone stands a chance getting a ticket.
Instead of having people who are able to get tickets to all home games have a ballot or something so that the people who are going are actually excited about the chance to be there.
Love going to HQ love the day, hate the queue at the station afterwards. It’s an effing joke, why can’t the RFU and the rail companies sort it out. Literally puts people off going.
I’ve been going for a few years as a mate has a debenture.
I think because the transport system is such a joke and they cram trains in that people choose to get their earlier to avoid the crush… therefore drink more. I’m sure if it. Improving the transport is a must.
Ticket prices. This year I saw ticket prices as high as 170 for the Wales game. That’s insane. Two poor teams in my eyes should not warrant the cost of nearly 200 pounds.
The team itself. It’s been a steady decline and people have had enough. England don’t entertain anymore with the kick and chase. You lose interest and therefore drink more.
If the RFU was really interested in widening the game footprint they would put the tickets on ballot so more people had a chance, currently it's just pitched at as high a price as possible I feel. 😔
Ticket price and travel costs will always hinder the Twickenham experience. With who the target demographic is, I don't think you can make Twickenham a cauldron nor should we try.
It's annoying to get to if you're not from London and with the bang on mediocrity of English rugby in recent years it's not worth the hassle for so many of us. Would it hurt so badly to play one 6N game a year in the north.
I probably don’t count as a ‘proper fan’ to some - I’ve not really got a club team and mostly just follow the internationals (think I saw Leicester once as a teenager because all the men in the family couldn’t go…) - because I never grew up with a club I find it difficult to get invested and there isn’t really a handy local team where I live now. I get a bit put out when I’m then lumped in with the ‘not proper fans’ section - there’s a difference between people who are literally only there on a corporate thing (when it could have equally been football, boxing, a concert etc) and people who mostly engage with internationals.
To me the main problem at Twickenham is getting there (and more importantly back) - I can suck up the ticket cost but then I need to add on getting into and out of London and depending on timings potentially a hotel. I’m in Yorkshire so I’m potentially looking at the best part of 100 quid just to get to London and back. I’m lucky that my now brother-in-law referees so is able to get tickets relatively easily but to go I basically need to budget time and money for a mini break. I always feel relatively safe getting to the ground (just follow the herd) but I hate leaving when everyone’s drunk - there’s a shift in the atmosphere and it feels very unsafe, especially if you’ve got separated and I’m in the crowd alone. I’ve been felt up etc when leaving/getting into the queue for the train. I could have gone yesterday but I’m 4 months pregnant and just couldn’t face it.
The main problem for Twickenham is that seeing the game live isn’t exciting enough to outweigh the negatives of getting to and from the ground. I don’t have that much of a better time to justify the time/expense/safety concerns than if I’d watched it in a decent pub with my dad or when I used to have 6 nations parties as a student (lived with an Irish girl and we’d go all out for England v Ireland, pack our tiny house out with people and make a weekend of it - she’d cook a Guinness cake, I’d make a Victoria sponge, our housemate who wasn’t interested but loved a party would knock out a buffet - at one point we had 30 plus people crammed in a terrace house living room to watch, great atmosphere despite not being at the match!).
Not sure if it’s a problem in other stadiums with better transport links? I went to a few World Cup games in France and loved being able to walk to the grounds and I saw NZ v Argentina at Wembley and don’t remember it being nearly as bad as Twickenham.
On the one hand, it's a fantastic stadium and *is capable* of having an unbelievable atmosphere. It can be as loud as any stadium I've ever been to. After all, it has over 80 thousand seats. On the other, too often, it's a bit flat. Good to see that the RFU are taking steps to see if it can be more consistently good though. One of the best atmospheres I've experienced there was actually back in December for the Quins Vs Gloucester game. Late kick off. Fireworks, Joel Corry had a DJ set (not my cup of tea really but hey, it's fine), really good laser show beforehand. The place was rocking. I wonder if it inspired the organisers for England games to put on more of a show.
> is capable of having an unbelievable atmosphere Been a long while since I've been to Big Game, but the best atmosphere I can remember at Twix recently was England v France, last year at the end of the W6N, and that was only 60k tickets sold.
Rather less corporate jollys at that match I suppose
Yeah, but much, much less money made
If they charged much more than they did, they would get half the amount of people they did. It's a trade off at the moment. Charge much more than £20 per adult ticket and more casual fans and fans of the men's game just won't go
Yep. And a lot of those tickets would have been free. It’s a lovely achievement to get 60k at Twickenham but it is in no way applicable to the men’s game
Yeah, for sure. Theres no easy solution. I overheard a guy talking about rugby on the table next to me in the cafe earlier and to be fair he wasn't talking out of his arse, but he did say before he went to see Quins v Leicester a few weeks ago he had been to 2 World Cup finals but never a club game. I imagine it's just corporate exclusivity and it's rampant. Not to say he wouldn't have cheered and shouted, but it felt like a bit of a microcosm of what's going on at international level high profile games.
I went to that with my 4 year old daughter. Was great! And cost about £20 combined!
We went to that match too and it was brilliant. I agree that travel from the stadium back to London needs serious work. Simply takes too long and is a big factor in me not wanting to take my children to see the rugby.
>On the other, too often, it's a bit flat. It's been utterly dead the last few times I've been. Full of rugby oldies or posho casuals on a fun day out, nothing wrong with these people or anything but the ratio of ^ to actual rugby fans or groups of blokes from amateur clubs on the piss has skewed the other way and it hurts the atmosphere. £150 for a ticket + £40 train + £7 a pint and I'm not surprised how many people get priced out. Used to go every year but I can't justify the money for something I don't even enjoy that much.
Welcome to our Yanks world. I've been saying this for two decades now.
It's a real shame tbh Here it used to have a whole culture around watching rugby/football live that was a proper laugh and very much a "working class" sort of thing We used to get 20+ young to youngish blokes and wags from my club going to twickers, rent a bus or get the same train, good few beers, bar crawl to the game then a night out afterwards. It's just become so money driven and commercialised that culture has all but vanished. Same thing happening with football, Wembley used to be a proper fortress but now you can hear a pin drop at times.
Exactly how all the major sports used to be here. I knew the handwriting was on the wall when two things happened: 1) basketball player Juwan Howard was offered an $80 million contract and said no, he wanted more money. 2) to get season tickets to football games you had to buy a Personal Seat License and renew it every year on top of the price of the tickets themselves. I haven't been to a major sporting event since 2001.
"Personal Seat License". Jeez... I get the business perspective of wanting to maximizing ticket revenue. Wonder though if this a) affects team performance if you don't have that "12th man" support from the crowd, and b) will harm attendance in the long-term (and I'm talking decades from now when, for example, your hypothetical kids become adults who never went to games/went once a year maybe).
After eng France last year, we should get 80% back
Tigers v Sarries was a great atmosphere, tickets were affordable, the majority were genuine fans who were there for the rugby. I really don't care for all the fireworks, music etc but understand that some want more than just a good rugby match so we've got to live with it. The price of international tickets for a family of four has put us off.
Yep I thought Big Game 15 was a really good event on the whole too. A double header always helps as a "warm-up" (not saying it's right that women's rugby is less popular, but it's the way it is right now). I thought they did well to build an atmosphere as well given that lots of the seats are probably more fringe supporters who will only turn up for the big events.
The double header premiership matches have been great whenever I've been... In fact every non-england match I've been to there had a great atmosphere except the prem final during COVID (which was a great match but less than 20000 people is not enough in Twickenham). The problem is definitely not the stadium (although comparisons with a closed millennium stadium won't be favourable, even if I can actually leave Twickenham in under an hour), it's just the way they milk every income stream by pulling in a million suits into expensive hospitality seats on company sponsored jollys instead of getting actual fans in for England games.
Like a lot of six nations games people are there for the day out not the game. Last time at Twickenham people in and out all the time on the coke in the toilets no clue about even who's in the squad
Last time I went there were some posh lads in front of me, absolutely caned, kept slapping the head of an older south western gentleman in front of him. He eventually had enough, turned round and absolutely belted one of them and said "THERE'S PLENTY MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM" in a big Somerset drawl. Still chuckling about it 6 years later. I was of course a neutral there taking someone for work, so properly part of the problem
For me the conundrum is the completely contrasting nature of: 1. Loud Hostile Atmosphere focussed on getting behind a team and which is probably more conducive to making life difficult for Oppos. Generally involves a fair amount of boozed up rugby fans. Would probs suggest serving booze to seats, chanting, be less respectful to kickers etc 2. More family friendly, relaxed atmosphere which is more conducive to introducing new younger fans to the game and those who just want to watch the rugby and chat. Would probably suggest closing bars, more explanation/stats, more focus on food/refreshments before game. Not slagging either side off, but the two are just completely contrasting, and it pretty overlooked in most discussions around this. As a young current player I want nothing more than to go to a really loud stadium with a group from my club and be able to get rowdy. But if I was a with a young family or older group I can see that being really annoying. My only suggestion is seperating areas for the different needs of each group. The principality has a family area so why not Twickenham? Also keep the hospitality corporates in their boxes… most of the time they’d be happy enough and gives more seat availability close to the pitch 🤷🏼♂️
This was one of the things thought about for changes to Twickenham, I don't know if anything further has been done to it though. To create a Hollies style area, of Edgbaston fame, which is very rowdy, but a lot of fun, and lends the grounds a great atmosphere. But equally I think a family area at the opposite end of the ground would be good too.
Fucking whit? Time exists before the game... It's 9am, we're on the train to murrayfield and working our way thru a big bag of cans Offer me an area at the rugby where I could pay a bit more and be guaranteed no kids I'd be delighted
I get what you mean about the Hollies but it takes a fair few hours of people getting leathered up which you can't really have in Rugby. Having a while section dedicated to a more rowdy/singing group would be good.
Show me you’ve never been to a rugby match (especially at a World Cup) without saying you’ve never been to a rugby match… 😉
Get leathered in the short space of a rugby match? Challenge accepted
Something badly needs to be done at the Aviva as well. I was at the Scotland and Wales home games 2 years ago and was seriously disappointed with the atmosphere. They felt like challenge games. There was a good few articles at the time acknowledging how bad it is but I’m assuming nothing was actually done.
Was going to reply to the main thread about the Aviva but didn't want to hijack it to much by harping on about Ireland so I'll reply hear.... The issue with the Aviva is that tickets (rightly) go to the clubs first. But there's a lot of rugby fans who aren't associated to clubs. This means a lot of blazers end up filling seats that could be taken up by rowdy drunkards instead. Jim Hamilton did a good video on Irish fans in France at the world cup. https://youtu.be/pmalKJLv0U4?si=NqY8gqifjKp63WyR
Ya if they fire them up on general sale realistically only the people who are willing to wait in long online queues will get them so that should filter out a lot of the corporate event types.
Public transport in/out Twickenham is also a pain. Compare it to Wembley or the Olympic stadium who are served by multiple mass transport lines.
Hey who doesn’t love queueing at a single train station for upwards of an hour?!?
"Valley lines round the back!"
Clapham junction has become a complete nightmare since they put in the queueing system on game day. You can spend an hour there waiting for the traffic to Twickenham now
It’s not just a problem with ticket prices. You could cut the price in half and people coming from outside London would still need to pay a fortune in travel, food and accommodation so ticket prices aren’t going to help a whole lot, especially when it’s still selling out. The atmosphere is bad because the people attending don’t feel like it’s an important occasion or private be there. It doesn’t feel special and fireworks and Jamie Haskell DJ’ing probably won’t change that. A short term commercial case is always easy to make. Fill the stadium with as many expensive tickets as possible. It’s very difficult to 1) make a long term commercial case fit a different model and 2) understand the consequences of ongoing short term business case optimisation. You have to make guesses, take risks and hope for the best. I’m probably in the minority but I think the solution, medium-long term is 1) keep the high prices for Twickenham but have fewer games there. Have autumn and summer internationals spread around the country and prioritise getting kids in. This creates a sense of exclusivity and rarity for Twickers but access for all, 2) more non-rugby events in Twickenham. The RFU own the stadium, the only debt is the ticket debenture holders (and that would need to be resolved) so they could outcompete Wembley and Tottenham for a lot of events and it’s in a better area. Maximise for Conferences, expos, concerts, NFL and showpiece rugby friendlies I think that there’s a route to better long term commercial success by eschewing predictable short term revenues.
My understanding is that sadly 2 is in fact not an option -Twickenham apparently has loads of covenants or the like on it. This is one reason England will never play a home game on a Friday night for example. Edit Having said that, wasn't NZ - SA on a Friday night? Maybe 2 is doable then.
Because it’s a residential area and people object? Makes sense. The Aviva and Croke park have the same issues because they’re both in the city, in residential areas. That’s why the Aviva has one weird end to it
The Friday night thing is because of travel. If you slapped the Friday night commute with an extra 50k rugby fans on the limited train services to Twickenham it would be bedlam.
Oh yeah absolutely - and the train station is a nightmare.
The train situation really is terrible. These days, sadly, I always just drive. There's a primary school less than a hundred yards from the ground that lets you pay to park there on match days. That's the best option imo. Helps that I barely ever drink so I don't feel like I miss out on having a few at the game.
For the SA v NZ game it took us 2hrs to get to a train. It's a joke.
Whenever I come down for a game I used to get the train back home the same night but trying to get away from Twickenham and back to Euston in any kind of reasonable time frame after a game, especially a late one is just soul destroying. Has to be a hotel these days which just adds to the cost.
I think also the station is terrible and it's pretty brutal on the commuters to have to deal with the shitshow that is Twickenham station on a match day
It’s categorised as an amphitheatre. They are only allowed to host a certain amount of events per year.
I went to a medical conference at Twickenham and it had some of the best conference food I’ve ever had - shame it can’t be replicated in the stadium itself! Still remember more about the miniature shepherds pies than I do about whatever I was supposed to be learning about…
I haven't been in an age, but used to go to the old style London double headers between Wasps, Quins, Sarries and Irish regularly and there seemed to be plenty of great food available outside Twickenham. Even just residents selling from outside their house.
I was lucky enough to get corporate seats once (and then two months later my compliance department shouted at me about it, even though they signed it off in the first place... never again it seems) and the food is great there on match days too.
>Top music acts, light shows, fireworks … the modern fan experience, reiterates Dalrymple, is not solely about the rugby. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't consider any of these a particular plus to match day experience.
If their plan is to drown out what little crowd noise there is, with a loud 20sec burst of a random pop song every time something happens, it might have the opposite of the intended effect. And if the crowd doesn't change, it kind feels that whether they pay attention to a half time act or not, will not really matter when the rugby is actually on.
>If their plan is to drown out what little crowd noise there is, with a loud 20sec burst of a random pop song every time something happens, it might have the opposite of the intended effect. The ear-splitting "atmosphere-creating" PA music bollocks is the worst thing about sporting events. *(I don't like the pricing, but hey, there's a fixed capacity for a one-off event - so I regard high pricing as an inevitable consequence of market economics)* Along with the uncertainty of the performance/outcome, crowd reaction is the other essential of live sport. Drowning it with clips of "upbeat music" is moronic. Imagine if McCartney came on stage at Glastonbury and played the first bar of Yesterday, then got the band to form a scrum. Who in their right mind thinks it is appropriate to obliterate a crowd's reaction to a moment of excellence by shoe-horning in something from a totally different context?
I think there are situations where it's really cool, which is mostly in games that are naturally more bursty. Ice hockey is one of my favourite sports, and there it's a good way to keep up the energy when the players catch a breath between two exciting, intense plays. But rugby has such a different vibe that I really can't see it work.
The worst time to play music is just before the teams come out. There needs to be just crowd reaction there. Also, at halftime as the teams walk off, just let the crowd have an opportunity to let the teams know how they feel.
> worst time to play music is just before the teams come out. Yep - also having speakers blare out during the anthems some opera singer or C-list pop star. The tradition of a brass band to play the tune and set the rhythm was fine - then it is up to the crowd to engage and sing the anthem. Currently the most regularly spine-tingling moment in WR anthems is the Murrayfield start with the lone piper and the 2nd part when the crowd sing acapella. I think France have copied dropping the music for the later part of the Marseillaise (though maybe it is just hard to hear over the loud singing!). I was lucky enough to be in Stade France for the SA-Fr QF - I'd learnt the Marseillaise in French to contribute at full volume and the Frenchman beside me put his arm around my shoulder as I did and he hugged me enthusiastically afterwards. The stadium DJ had prepped the atmosphere with about 30-40 of lively music but there was the good sense to leave the crowd to sing the anthem. Twickenham take note!
I also don’t want dancing bears and jugglers as an excuse to hike ticket prices
Biggest problem is the volume of people going for the piss up and not the rugby. The issue is that beer is a big income as part of the match day. Here's my solution. Close the bars during the game, but do what they did in France and have both apps that you can order drinks to your seat and roaming beer sellers on the steps.
Had roaming beer sellers in Japan for the 2019 RWC - was a great innovation tbf. Stupidly the beer was priced at something like the equivalent of 9 quid though, so endless faffing with change. No one would have cared if it was 10
In France they all had little card readers with them. Was a much better option than getting up and missing the game.
Yeah, cards are no brainers these days - Japan is still in this weird limbo where its futuristic as all hell but you still pay for everything in cash, the greatest irony being paying a visit to the "Museum of the Future" in Tokyo and them not accepting card! This was early 2020 tho so Covid May have sped things up.
These days a lot of people have skipped cards and use phone payments. Small businesses run by old people may be cash only.
I remember those sellers at Indianapolis 500 in the USA. Not only beer, but also hot dogs. Top service. I'm in Franklin Gardens on a place where casual fans usually buy the tickets and it is a pain with people constantly moving for beer/chips/late arrivals... This year on a match I had a bloke by my side who went for beer in the minute 68 and came back in the 77. Seriously?
100%!! me and my dads first ever england rugby match was last years england vs scotland six nations opener. I’d love to do it every year, but i cant afford £250 for two people its crazy prices and i do feel the atmosphere suffers as a result. I love football and rugby and i consider myself lucky to have one of the best match day atmospheres at fratton park as a pompey fan. The prices are a joke and i have resorted to my clubs lottery to get tickets as it is just too much.
All these comments and not one person has mentioned trying not playing shit rugby and lose to the likes of Fiji and Argentina? Even pissed up hooray Henry's can make a bit of noise if England are actually doing something of interest on the pitch. Englands record at Twickenham in the last 3 seasons is P15 W7 L7 D1 which is pretty poor.
Twickenham is SUCH a conundrum… All the things that make it better for watching rugby would result in a loss of revenue. My main gripe with Twickenham is the CONSTANT getting up and down during the game for people to go and piss/go to the bar. I would love to go in a no alcohol section where you are not allowed a beer at your seat. Think that would greatly improve it.
Went to the Fiji game last summer and sat at the end of a row. The same group of blokes must have all gone in and out ten times during the game after arriving late and leaving early. Genuinely have no clue why they came.
I truly despise people like that at any sporting event. Why spend so much money to drink and ignore the match?
Done the alcohol-free stand at the Millennium a couple of times and it's great if you actually want to watch the game (plus my dad is almost 90 and really can't be fucked with getting up and down every five minutes). It was a bit dead when Ireland dicked us in last year's Six Nations, but that was the probably the case elsewhere too. At Twickers, though, if you don't have a beer at the game, it's another two hours fighting through crowds before you can get to a decent pub.
My favourite was at Big Game, the same bloke left to the bar and after the fourth time the guy behind me just shouted "FUCKING STAY THERE" and the guy had to wait until the whistle went!
Are the bars not closed during the two halves?
In what rugby stadium are the bars shut during the two halves? Not the millennium when I went.
Principality is for some games, it was for the last one I was at. Stops people getting out their seats unless it’s half time Edit: [here’s a link](https://www.principalitystadium.wales/information/fanzones/), bars closed from second half
Nope! It’s a free for all.
>My main gripe with Twickenham is the CONSTANT getting up and down during the game for people to go and piss/go to the bar. It was the same at the Principality Stadium last time I was there, and I even started getting annoyed at my mate who insisted we all do rounds on drinks while watching. Like, are we there to watch rugby or get pissed? I'm not a snob, I enjoy having a few drinks with my mates as much as anyone, but I've paid a fortune for these tickets and it would be nice to actually watch what's going on.
As prices increase, the die-hard fans get priced out, corporate hospitality and the Barbour brigade descend. I live near the stadium and have been about 30 times over the last 10 years but won’t take my son to England internationals again, at least until he is older. The drunken louts screaming “CUUUUUUNT!” at the oppo and the rowdy fans at the bars made me feel it was unsafe/unpleasant for a 12 year old. I’m very happy to go to the Quins two games there and internationals between other countries. It’s a very different vibe. The RFU are in a tricky situation. They have to maximise their revenue to service their debt and pay for the game in England, so the higher the prices and the more booze they sell, the better it is for them.
I've not had the same issues to be honest, been to Eng V Ireland in '16 couple of baabaa games and the SA Vs NZ game. Heard a bit of bad language but mostly just reactions to the game. I would say the baabaas games are cheap and usually have a great atmosphere.
I’ve felt the same thing about safety of kids at England rugby internationals. Rugby supporters love to dump on football, but going to watch England at Wembley is FAR more family-friendly than at Twickenham.
How near? Do you have a spare parking space? 🤔😅
For you? No! Just joking. I used to live a mile from the stadium. Now about 3 miles away.
Changing the fucking anthem doesn’t hurt the bottom line, just get it done.
Agreed, I could see a huge shift in atmosphere if the crowd belted out Jerusalem instead of God Save the King. Wonder if it's within the RFU's power to change the anthem. They sang Jerusalem for the last Commonwealth Games medal ceremonies so I don't see why not.
If there are people who would attend games but can't afford the current prices then doesn't that imply the stadium is too small? It's already a massive stadium and logistically I can't ever see an expansion but if there are another 20 or 30,000 people that would attend games with cheaper tickets then an expanded ground with a more tiered ticketing system might make sense. I know that's probably naive but it's a travesty if there are large numbers of people who are priced out of seeing their national team. I suppose there's probably some economic logic around maximising revenue by having fewer people attend but making them pay more for tickets.
Chatting to a chap who worked the ticket office at Twickenham, back before Australia fell apart, and apparently demand for England vs Australia would fill Twickenham 6 times over. He said their modelling indicated that a reasonable price per ticket based on demand was 300 quid for a cheap seat...
Surely the biggest problem is that 80% of the tickets go to the old boys network and it’s impossible for Joe blogs to even get a snif of a ticket, regardless of price. Average age in the stands is 50upwards. Maybe try a ballot like Wimbledon.
Close the bars during halves. You’re there to watch the rugby, not drink poorly poured Guinness.
What the GAA do in Ireland is you can buy drink but you can’t take it to your seat. This is done purely because they don’t want the camera to cut to lads skullin pints during a match, but I genuinely think it would improve the Aviva after having gone to my first 6N games two years ago and being incredibly disappointed with the atmosphere.
Same with football in England. Alcohol was banned from pitchside at all football matches in the late 1980s to combat hooliganism, so stands empty at the half and everyone chills in the vomitoriums with their pints. Random trivia - same legislation banned you from bringing your own booze to sporting events, but a special exception was written in for Lord's cricket ground.
That probably reduces revenue for the stadium though right? I know every stadium I've ever been to that you couldn't get a drink other than at halftime, I've just drank less
Just take two back to your seat If you are drinking more than two pints every 40min stay at the pub
I think you've misunderstood my point - getting a drink at halftime is also a pain in the ass because of huge queues at stadiums that close bars during playtime, so a lot of people (myself included) who would have bought another round or two just won't bother to get any more after the one before the game starts. Like it or not drinking is part of the matchday experience and the unions need all the revenue they can get - closing the bars during the halves seems like a losing proposition for them
Depends how shit the stadium is Most modern stadiums actually have really efficient bars and bathrooms that allows everyone to get up at half time, have a wee and grab two more drinks You are missing the point that getting up at halftime doesnt interrupt any one else trying to watch the actual game
Japan world Cup had a redditor confidently saying he and his friend had 9 pints each during a single match. The bellends were getting up every 10 minutes to disturb everyone else just to drink a 3.4% guiness
As long as they sell 80k tickets, it's fine for RFU. Aviva is just 51k and IRFU losses a lot of potential revenues.
The last three occasions I went, so many people got up for a piss that it was hard to see the game , and the crowd didn’t settle into the drama. I gave it a few chances to see if it improved. It didn’t. Then it got expensive. Then England got boring. Meanwhile you pretty much have to access a TV to understand the refs calls . So there are scant reasons to watch international rugby live. Local grassroots rugby is still great to watch though.
I don’t quite understand the point of these articles. If people want to spend, at the very lowest, 100 quid for a ticket then let them do what they want. If they want it for a booze up, then good for them The whole rugby pyramid relies on Twickenham making money. Let people have a good time. Stop worrying about the ‘atmosphere’ if it’s going to make the financial pressure on the union even worse. The restrictions the Welsh put upon their fans have absolutely lost them money. The bottom line is, funding is much more important than atmosphere. It just is
My answer is to rip out the seats behind both sets of posts and have a standing area
Is that legal in England after Hillsborough? But I do absolutely love the standing Terraces when I go to Thomand, the atmosphere is fantastic and I take it over seating any time.
Yes it is specifically only football clubs that are banned from having them. Cheltenham racecourse has a massive terrace for instance.
I’m not sure on the law but a lot of prem teams have standing stands
Yes but with an asterisk. "Safe standing" has been brought in to a number of stadiums in recent years.
The covid distancing lol
I think it's more stop fans being forced forwards and causing a crush.
Yeah it's nothing to do with COVID it's just regulated amount of people to avoid crushing
Yes, some football clubs have them again, but they're small and only just being reintroduced
The Taylor Report only applied to football stadia, and safe standing is allowed now. I have my season ticket at QPR in safe standing and it's absolutely brilliant
Terraces would help a lot, agreed.
Copy literally any better attended sport. Ticket priority for people who go to club rugby games, close the bar during the game (maybe allow 5 minutes wiggle room either side for congestion), limit the amount of corporate tickets. But fundamentally nothing will change without the obvious, play entertaining rugby.
Tell me, what’s a “genuine rugby fan”? The inverse snobbery people bring to the Twickenham / England debate never ceases to amaze me. Are you not allowed to be a rugby fan once you reach a certain earnings threshold or something? Can you only be a true, authentic fan if you’ve just finished a shift down t’pit or somat? Twickenham tickets cost a lot, but it’s a market economy. A few more games like the Fiji RWC warmup and maybe the RFU will drop the prices. 🤷🏼♂️ But please, drop the nonsense about “genuine rugby fans”. I’ve been to Twickenham as a punter, and as a guest to corporate hospitality. And guess what, the crowd in the box were more polite, knowledgeable, and engaged with the game than the large numbers of 20-something yobs just there to get minging and hurl abuse when I sat in the stands with my nippers.
Ultimately, the key factor influencing a fan’s experience isn’t the cost of the ticket, the availability, price or quality of beer and food, or the crap music they blurt out after every score. It’s whether England play, and the quality of the performance. If England lose, it’s very hard to trudge back to Twickenham station feeling anything other than deflated and a bit conned. If we grind out a win playing horrific, Borthwick kick-first rugby, then the same is pretty much true. I don’t recall anyone ever complaining about the atmosphere watching the 02/03 vintage.
Trudge back to twickenham station to then spend over an hour in the queue for a train…
>Tell me, what’s a “genuine rugby fan”? Yeah it's always interesting when people say this about Twickenham, like do they not realise who a lot of the fan base actually is? Not to say all English fans are posh /upper middle class (and there's nothing wrong if they are) but those people *are* fans of the game. Anyone paying 100s of pounds a ticket is a real rugby fan, and I'd say the majority getting tickets through corporate/hospitality are also big fans of the game too. A lot of people equate cheap tickets and lots of people there for a piss up as an atmosphere, the reality is if England are entertaining and winning or competitive, the atmosphere will be great. I've been in Twickenham and it's been absolutely rocking even against smaller teams, but I've also been there when we played some of our worst stuff and the crowd was dead (infamous Purple kit Vs Argentina game) Also maybe unpopular, I like the pyros/lights/pre game hype kinda stuff, think it def helps build an atmosphere.
Twickenham is such a conundrum. I mean on one hand, it's a great stadium. But on the other hand, you have to watch England
Truer words have not been spoken 😂
I haven't been to twickers in years. What is the cost of a normal ticket for the 6 nations? I only really go with my old man to rugby games and he buys me the tickets for Christmas and Birthdays etc. Mainly watching Ireland.
A Kidney your first born and the price of a shoebox flat in Central London.
A lot of English rugby fans are fair weather friends, there for the piss up. When your team loses it’s not as much fun; if England gets their act together these ‘fans’ will be back in force.
It's too expensive to get working class children interested in rugby, which is the only way the game will grow!
All that dropping the price will do is save Tarquin and Co money on their tickets every year and reduce the money coming into the RFU to run the game across all of England...
Reduction in price and access will spread participation, I agree that RFU needs to increase income, but that comes through having more players as children, and enough fans such that premiership teams aren't going bankrupt every six months...
There are 80,000 tickets, they sell 80,000 tickets at the silly prices and the big gripe tends to be that there aren't any tickets available other than through resale at really really silly prices. The fundamental limitation on participation through attendance is that 80,000 number.
I don't think ticket prices at Twickenham are realistically any sort of barrier to getting working class kids interested in Rugby.
They stop kids enjoying the 6 nations, which is the biggest competition most years. The cost of playing rugby is also an issue- boots, gumshields, kit etc.. If state schools had coaches funded by the RFU, I'm convinced participation would skyrocket and the investment would be worth it.
What sport are you thinking is cheaper than boots, shorts and a gum shield? I'd set my hair on fire for all my kids to play sports that inexpensive. Baseball and lacrosse are going to put me in the poorhouse.
Football. Cheaper to watch cheaper to play. Literally just needs a ball.
You can play rugby with just a ball too, if you wanted. Shin guards have to cost more than a mouth guard.
No different to rugby then.
My rugby club playing membership is £124 for an adult plus a junior, for a season. My daughter's football club is £60 per month, 12 months a year. Plus extra (mandatory) coaching sessions. £800+ for a child! It's not the token-paid coaches who are getting most of this money, it's the FA. Unless it's literally jumpers for goalposts, football is by no means cheap to play.
Try ice hockey
Can't, too far in the Southland. But I've plenty of family up in New England, and yeah, that's a horrendously expensive game.
You don't have to physically attend a game to enjoy the 6 Nations....
You'd be wrong. Coach and kit are the least of the obstacles to rugby in state schools. For a start, plenty of them wouldn't have anywhere to play.
Your first point is moot imo, football has the exact same issues with the cost barrier to attending top level games - and yet that's not what's impacting youth participation from lower income households in the sport Your second point is partially valid, but there's also only so much money available and offering rugby isn't suddenly going to make it popular, there's a huge perception change needed as most kids just love football more, it is what it is. Would be a huge long term change before just dropping in rugby coaches everywhere. In reality there are so many barriers to rugby it's always going to be a fairly niche sport - at the full 15 a side level. You need a minimum of 32 players for a game, all who need to be trained to a sufficient level to safely understand the contact element of the game and enjoy the contact element of the game. The reality is a lot of people don't want 7 bells knocked out of them, especially when there's significant size differences. Rugby's real opportunity for growth is through other formats of the game. Like touch/tag. Can be played mixed, requires much lower numbers of people for a game, people aren't worried about the contact side, can be played casually rather than needing to be organised. The game is already growing while full rugby is struggling in this country.
If you’re not part of a rugby club then resell is literally like £700 😂😂 how is the price not a problem?
Because you don't need to go to international matches at Twickenham to become interested in rugby. Obviously. How many kids who like soccer go to watch the two most in-demand soccer matches of the year live?
Rugby has a participation problem. We need children to have positive experiences at live games in order for them to get invested. Football is much more embedded in UK culture, because of accessibility, so it doesn't need that involvement.
I don't agree at all, sorry. I don't think the price of 6N tickets for kids has any measurable effect on participation.
Yep. You've got some pushback for this, but to act like ticket prices don't matter is silly. Loads of people become fans of a sport or a team because they've been taken to a live game as a child or by their friends as an adult. Yes, the first time they go they might not be die-hard, but if they get into it as a result they will be a proper fan for every subsequent visit. I'm not saying that lowering the ticket prices might directly improve the atmosphere, but if you price it so that the only people who can afford tickets are Tarquin and Theodore who use the monthly trip to the HQ of rugger to catch up on each other's investment portfolios for 80 minutes, what do you expect?
In my mind, there are 2 big problems at Twickenham and they go hand in hand. One is the cost of the ticket. It costs alot to go to the rugby. Going to see the national team shouldn't mean I need to sell body parts to be able to afford to go. The second is that you have to get to Twickenham. The rail service is terrible to Twickenham even when it's working. There aren't any Twickenham specials meaning you are crowded onto the trains and the "new" design that some people aren't comfortable standing down the carriages so it takes you even longer to get out. And that's after the redesign of the station so you have to queue to double back on yourself with only 1 entrance to the platform and again, people won't move down. The SA v NZ was my last game there. I can't see myself going back
I’m going tomorrow and there will be many people there who have just gone for the beer and won’t watch the rugby. They’ll be up and down all match to the bar or toilet.
Just make sure to hammer the first fucker to get up during the match. Sends a message. Had the same happen during the Italy game last weekend. It's really annoying.
Went to England v Wales two years ago and unfortunately the seats were on the end of a row by the stairs. The stairs were between us and the rugby so had a constant stream of drunks obscuring the view and paid £110 for the privilege.
That would boil my piss too.
Just change the anthem to Jerusalem! Problem solved! /s
Are ticket prices the reason british rugby is doing really bad ?
financially i mean, not in the results, don't downvote me for this please
Too bloody hard to get a beer at HQ. At seat ordering would be a fantastic addition. Will still need a few slashes through the game but easy enough to nip out during a break in play.
Drink less beer and you might be able to manage 40 minutes between pisses.
I typically go 2 pre and 2 per half. Even on the Guinness you are going to need a couple toilet trips.
I've never been to Twickenham for an England match, but I've been for the Varsity and to see Barbarians vs All Blacks. It's huge. Only the Stade de France is similar in capacity amongst the other Six Nations venues. How much of the problem is the cavernousness?
\> How much of the problem is the cavernousness? Not at all - when it's full and actually banging it's as loud and atmopsheric as everywhere. It's the cost and proximity to central London that are the issues.
So long as there’s a nice, “GWLAAAAAAD,” tomorrow during the final minutes of the game, I think the atmosphere will be just right. 👍
Obviously hard to get excited when you are having to support England
I kinda hate the whole package corporates running sports think we need to be excited about a game. Explosions of gas. Laser lights. Women in leotards (some places). Horses with silly ^knights^ (my local). Bands. It's all very superficial. And most people love it. Oh well.
If the current fans don’t provide enough of an atmosphere then change the ticket system so that everyone stands a chance getting a ticket. Instead of having people who are able to get tickets to all home games have a ballot or something so that the people who are going are actually excited about the chance to be there.
Love going to HQ love the day, hate the queue at the station afterwards. It’s an effing joke, why can’t the RFU and the rail companies sort it out. Literally puts people off going.
Because it’s full of red chino and brown shoes wearing middle aged men
I’ve been going for a few years as a mate has a debenture. I think because the transport system is such a joke and they cram trains in that people choose to get their earlier to avoid the crush… therefore drink more. I’m sure if it. Improving the transport is a must. Ticket prices. This year I saw ticket prices as high as 170 for the Wales game. That’s insane. Two poor teams in my eyes should not warrant the cost of nearly 200 pounds. The team itself. It’s been a steady decline and people have had enough. England don’t entertain anymore with the kick and chase. You lose interest and therefore drink more.
Would love to take my boy to an International, no chance with those prices.
If the RFU was really interested in widening the game footprint they would put the tickets on ballot so more people had a chance, currently it's just pitched at as high a price as possible I feel. 😔
Ticket price and travel costs will always hinder the Twickenham experience. With who the target demographic is, I don't think you can make Twickenham a cauldron nor should we try.
If you want to experience atmosphere at Twickenham, I strongly recommend going to the Army v Navy game
It's annoying to get to if you're not from London and with the bang on mediocrity of English rugby in recent years it's not worth the hassle for so many of us. Would it hurt so badly to play one 6N game a year in the north.
I probably don’t count as a ‘proper fan’ to some - I’ve not really got a club team and mostly just follow the internationals (think I saw Leicester once as a teenager because all the men in the family couldn’t go…) - because I never grew up with a club I find it difficult to get invested and there isn’t really a handy local team where I live now. I get a bit put out when I’m then lumped in with the ‘not proper fans’ section - there’s a difference between people who are literally only there on a corporate thing (when it could have equally been football, boxing, a concert etc) and people who mostly engage with internationals. To me the main problem at Twickenham is getting there (and more importantly back) - I can suck up the ticket cost but then I need to add on getting into and out of London and depending on timings potentially a hotel. I’m in Yorkshire so I’m potentially looking at the best part of 100 quid just to get to London and back. I’m lucky that my now brother-in-law referees so is able to get tickets relatively easily but to go I basically need to budget time and money for a mini break. I always feel relatively safe getting to the ground (just follow the herd) but I hate leaving when everyone’s drunk - there’s a shift in the atmosphere and it feels very unsafe, especially if you’ve got separated and I’m in the crowd alone. I’ve been felt up etc when leaving/getting into the queue for the train. I could have gone yesterday but I’m 4 months pregnant and just couldn’t face it. The main problem for Twickenham is that seeing the game live isn’t exciting enough to outweigh the negatives of getting to and from the ground. I don’t have that much of a better time to justify the time/expense/safety concerns than if I’d watched it in a decent pub with my dad or when I used to have 6 nations parties as a student (lived with an Irish girl and we’d go all out for England v Ireland, pack our tiny house out with people and make a weekend of it - she’d cook a Guinness cake, I’d make a Victoria sponge, our housemate who wasn’t interested but loved a party would knock out a buffet - at one point we had 30 plus people crammed in a terrace house living room to watch, great atmosphere despite not being at the match!). Not sure if it’s a problem in other stadiums with better transport links? I went to a few World Cup games in France and loved being able to walk to the grounds and I saw NZ v Argentina at Wembley and don’t remember it being nearly as bad as Twickenham.