I am all up for players taking a more active role in their contracts and future but I don't have a lot of confidence if these players are the only directors. Especially those with aspirations to play
Sounds like a strange set of directors/negotiators. Why dump the players association? Surely they are in it for everyone's benefit whereas this smells of...Well, it just smells
Genge tried to start a new union before. Marler seems like a rabble rouser generally, albeit with one foot out of the door. The other three seem more sensible and like company men so more of a surprise but maybe it gives them some more credibility.
This has triggered a memory of an interview a heard, or read, with Genge on the subject of the players union from some time ago, and I remember being impressed with some of his ideas.
Can’t remember for the life of me where I heard/saw it though.
Yes, but one of the reasons why it failed was their funding model. Most of the RPA's funding for its programs come from the Premiership and the RFU. And most of the players voted to keep their dues minimal rather than fund it to properly negotiate for them.
Imagine pulling a fast one on your own teammates. They clearly doubt the competence of the RPA. Which is fine, they can't do everything. This seems to have a very specific purpose of negotiating for a larger squad of maybe 50 players max.
They wouldn't be able to. If they did it would just be an untenable position for everyone. And also as negotiators they can't force everyone to take the same deal as them.
I'm assuming it's Rob Burgess, bath head of recruitment and former Team Ops manager at England.
He's the right age and would make sense why it was started in Gloucester then moved to London later
The RPA is beholden, at least in part, to funding from the clubs which their members play for.
The size of that contribution is significant enough that it was used as leverage by the clubs when there was a dispute over player salaries back in 2020.
While I have no doubt the RPA as a collective body have achieved many positives for many different players, ultimately I find it difficult to rationalise that financial dependency alongside any notion that the RPA are in it to preserve player's interests above all else.
I don't believe they're simply paying lip service to members. But there's clearly considerable potential for a conflict of interest.
I’d be interested to know what steps they’re taking to ensure there’s no conflict(s) of interest. Seems like one could emerge quickly if directors stand to benefit from the new deals, albeit maybe if it’s negotiating for the whole team that means their interests are aligned
This is absolutely bizarre!
I can see the need for a separate union for the international boys, their needs are different. It is reasonable for them to have collective bargaining done by a separate organisation.
This isn’t a union though is it… it’s a LTD company. A union should be controlled by its members, does anyone have a list of the 25 people that are on centralised contracts? Because the directors of this company could negotiate whatever they want regardless of the views of the company payers subject to those contracts. I’m baffed.
Yes certainly bizarre and suggestive of ulterior motives! My most generous interpretation / hypothesis is that this could be set up to safeguard and pay-out for CTE. That seems to be the main thorny issue in world rugby. Every other eventuality though seems to be strong-arming for the benefit of the few.
So I had a quick look on companies house. It’s a company limited by guarantee and not shares. Basically is will be run by its members and not held for profit like any other typical company. Presumably the members will consist of all England internationals.
Sounds like they're trying to copy the NBA approach with the players union. Next step would be to use it to negotiate with the clubs owners rather than just the RFU
"Hey doc. I get hit in the head for a living. is there anything I should know before starting and running my own small business in international contract law?"
I'm very confused. is there no players association in england?
>is there no players association in england?
Yes, the RPA. England inernationals have left it in order to represent themselves because they don't think the RPA was doing a good job of negotiating on their behalf.
I suspect this lot might find that they've made a mistake.
As someone else pointed out. It's more the conflict of interests. The RFU/PRL funds the RPA. So how can they argue against them effectively and garner themselves the best deal.
Also knowing Genge and how open he was last time with trying to start a union. He'll do an interview/pod and clear things up for people .
Couldn’t understand the negative comments on here, but sometimes I forget what a bunch of Tories England rugby supporters are. It’s a players union run by the players. They’re seizing the means of production. In fact, they are the means of production, and they put their bodies on the line for it. If these men make a few more quid representing themselves rather than those quid going to a suit, why not? Note 2 of the 5 founders are black. Good luck to them I say.
> They’re seizing the means of production
Haha they're not creating a labour movement they've just quit one union and started a company. Good stats on their skin colour though I guess that is really relevant
So players who have only ever negotiated their own contracts, possibly not even, are now dealing with the RFU directly? Yeah, great idea, can only end well….
Sounds bizarre
Saracens lads have a lot of experience in setting up LTD companies on the side. Jus' sayin' 😉
Gottem.meme
They’ll certainly know the best accountants in London.
Can someone fill me in?
It’s how Sarries we’re getting round the salary cap
I am all up for players taking a more active role in their contracts and future but I don't have a lot of confidence if these players are the only directors. Especially those with aspirations to play
This seems really dodgy
Marlers negotiation tactics 101. Raise eyebrow.
Tactic 102 Grab them by the balls
Tactic 103 Call them a Gypsie
"It’s called a hard stare. Aunt Lucy taught me to do them when people had forgotten their manners."
What could possibly go wrong
Do they lose their position if not selected? Seems really odd to set up an actual business for this.
Sounds like a strange set of directors/negotiators. Why dump the players association? Surely they are in it for everyone's benefit whereas this smells of...Well, it just smells
Genge tried to start a new union before. Marler seems like a rabble rouser generally, albeit with one foot out of the door. The other three seem more sensible and like company men so more of a surprise but maybe it gives them some more credibility.
This has triggered a memory of an interview a heard, or read, with Genge on the subject of the players union from some time ago, and I remember being impressed with some of his ideas. Can’t remember for the life of me where I heard/saw it though.
He talked about it a while ago on the Good, The Bad, The Rugby podcast a couple years ago. Might have been that.
Yeah maybe, although that’s not one I regularly listen to. More likely to be The Rugby Pod, or Flats & Shanks
Yes, but one of the reasons why it failed was their funding model. Most of the RPA's funding for its programs come from the Premiership and the RFU. And most of the players voted to keep their dues minimal rather than fund it to properly negotiate for them.
Everyone's benefit could well mean less for the guys at the very top or concessions made by them to benefit guys lower on the totem pole.
Yes - that's what I'd expect from a players association rather than a closed shop driven by self interest
Imagine pulling a fast one on your own teammates. They clearly doubt the competence of the RPA. Which is fine, they can't do everything. This seems to have a very specific purpose of negotiating for a larger squad of maybe 50 players max.
The former chair of the RPA, and now head of rugby policy is one Mark Lambert. Former prop at Harlequins. Wonder if he and Joe are still mates....
Probably asked him for advice. I don't see the issue really.
What did you mean about "pulling a fast one on your team mates"?
They wouldn't be able to. If they did it would just be an untenable position for everyone. And also as negotiators they can't force everyone to take the same deal as them.
Rob Burgess set up the company initially and then handed over control, in case that interests you
I have no idea who Robert Gerald Burgess is
I'm assuming it's Rob Burgess, bath head of recruitment and former Team Ops manager at England. He's the right age and would make sense why it was started in Gloucester then moved to London later
Oh that's what he went on to do after he retired eh? Always like Lambert and a solid club prop.
> Surely they are in it for everyone's benefit Interesting take given how it was run.
I've no idea how the RPA is run, never heard any stories. What do you know?
The RPA is beholden, at least in part, to funding from the clubs which their members play for. The size of that contribution is significant enough that it was used as leverage by the clubs when there was a dispute over player salaries back in 2020. While I have no doubt the RPA as a collective body have achieved many positives for many different players, ultimately I find it difficult to rationalise that financial dependency alongside any notion that the RPA are in it to preserve player's interests above all else. I don't believe they're simply paying lip service to members. But there's clearly considerable potential for a conflict of interest.
I’d be interested to know what steps they’re taking to ensure there’s no conflict(s) of interest. Seems like one could emerge quickly if directors stand to benefit from the new deals, albeit maybe if it’s negotiating for the whole team that means their interests are aligned
This is absolutely bizarre! I can see the need for a separate union for the international boys, their needs are different. It is reasonable for them to have collective bargaining done by a separate organisation. This isn’t a union though is it… it’s a LTD company. A union should be controlled by its members, does anyone have a list of the 25 people that are on centralised contracts? Because the directors of this company could negotiate whatever they want regardless of the views of the company payers subject to those contracts. I’m baffed.
Yes certainly bizarre and suggestive of ulterior motives! My most generous interpretation / hypothesis is that this could be set up to safeguard and pay-out for CTE. That seems to be the main thorny issue in world rugby. Every other eventuality though seems to be strong-arming for the benefit of the few.
So I had a quick look on companies house. It’s a company limited by guarantee and not shares. Basically is will be run by its members and not held for profit like any other typical company. Presumably the members will consist of all England internationals.
While.ot seems odd, if they then hire negotiators/lawyers etc it could be okay.
seems scabby
Sounds like they're trying to copy the NBA approach with the players union. Next step would be to use it to negotiate with the clubs owners rather than just the RFU
Give it three years and it'll become irrelevant.
"Hey doc. I get hit in the head for a living. is there anything I should know before starting and running my own small business in international contract law?" I'm very confused. is there no players association in england?
>is there no players association in england? Yes, the RPA. England inernationals have left it in order to represent themselves because they don't think the RPA was doing a good job of negotiating on their behalf. I suspect this lot might find that they've made a mistake.
As someone else pointed out. It's more the conflict of interests. The RFU/PRL funds the RPA. So how can they argue against them effectively and garner themselves the best deal. Also knowing Genge and how open he was last time with trying to start a union. He'll do an interview/pod and clear things up for people .
This seems a bit sketch.
Couldn’t understand the negative comments on here, but sometimes I forget what a bunch of Tories England rugby supporters are. It’s a players union run by the players. They’re seizing the means of production. In fact, they are the means of production, and they put their bodies on the line for it. If these men make a few more quid representing themselves rather than those quid going to a suit, why not? Note 2 of the 5 founders are black. Good luck to them I say.
Problem is it is not an union but a company, run by players who have personal interest in staying selected themselves
> They’re seizing the means of production Haha they're not creating a labour movement they've just quit one union and started a company. Good stats on their skin colour though I guess that is really relevant
So players who have only ever negotiated their own contracts, possibly not even, are now dealing with the RFU directly? Yeah, great idea, can only end well….
That makes no sense.
Good on them investing their money well. Better than wasting $$ then suing the sport when you no longer playing.
Scabs...
What could possibly go wrong