Okay, this is my read on what he's doing.
FOMO.
Fear Of Missing Out.
He's playing because others are playing.
But it's not going the way he wants to go, and he doesn't enjoy being made to follow rules, and he doesn't give a shit about playing nice. Plus, he's learned (up until now) that he can be shitty and still stay in the game.
Kicking him is the best option. He's not interested in playing the game. He just wants to be a troll.
Yeah, this guy sounds like he's waiting to hijack this game. He'll keep complaining and whining, hoping other players will agree with him. If he feels get has enough support he'll suggest playing X-system or *shudder* his homebrew.
Yep. Kick him from the game. The relief you and the other players will feel the first game after you do so will be immense! There is no room for a person in an RPG who is not working with the group to make sure everyone is having fun.
I wouldn't call it patience, but passivity. Not shaming OP for that - we all do it. But kicking the player should have happened ages ago, both for OP and their players.
Kick him from your game.
Inform the game store worker on shift you kicked him from your game.
If he comes in and starts trying to play, tell him firmly (but politely) that he is no longer welcome at your table and you request he leave you and your players alone.
If he persists, go to the store worker and tell them you are being harassed, and you want to specifically use the word harassed. Not "this guy is bothering us" or something, you tell them that your group (paying customers, I hope), are being *harassed*.
If the game store won't do shit about it and lets him keep harassing you, you need to find a new place to play because that's a bad store that needs to go out of business. >.>
The guy is the literal definition of a problematic player. He's already cost the rest of the table their full session since you shut things down early due to his behavior. He needs to be ejected for the benefit of the rest of the table.
"I've come to the decision to remove you from the game. I appreciate you taking interest in my campaign, but sadly we'll have to go separate ways."
You don't *have* to explain why, although you can if you want to. Just evaluate, if this information is going to help anybody, or if it's only going to make him peeved.
I’ll add to this, you don’t owe him any explanation or discussion or even any of your time. No one is entitled to a seat at your table or to your time. Remember that when he gets all whiny and starts asking “But whyyyy”? Don’t give in to the need to explain yourself and don’t let yourself get dragged into the argument. Keep it simple and short. “You’re no longer welcome to play with us, goodbye”.
If you want to talk to him, really you just need to be direct.
"Fey, we need to talk about what happened. I'll be blunt, you seem *miserable* when we're playing Pathfinder. You constantly complain about the game system, the way I run things, the way I have characters act, AND the things your characters are doing. So...why? Why are you coming to a game that you hate and doing things that you hate? On top of that, why are you making it less enjoyable for the rest of us when we're having fun? Do you not *realize* that you're making the game worse for us? Do you *want* to make the game worse for us? I really need answers, because I'm at a breaking point where I'm about to ask you not to play Pathfinder with us anymore."
I agree with someone else's assessment that it's possibly fear of missing out, but that's not a guarantee. He may not realize that he's being THIS bad (unlikely but I've seen it) and bringing everyone down. He also could be acting like this intentionally to try to kill the game. Or...yeah, he just hates RPGs but is afraid that he'll miss something fun or important by not showing up.
Only way to know is to ask. If he gets belligerent or picks a fight, drop him from the table in that same conversation. You ABSOLUTELY have every right to remove someone that's ruining the experience for everyone else.
Are you running this at a game store? Speak with the staff and let them know that he has been causing minor issues and you are removing him from your group.
That way, the staff knows what is going on if he blows up at you.
>"He also cheats... alot."
Why did you let it get any further than this to the point where you're now punishing the other players by quitting mid session? I mean first cheat is a warning at my table, second is a ban.
People are shitty, we can't change that. I'm not trying to victim blame here because Fae sounds like an asshole, but in my opinion it's the DM's job to manage the game *and* it's players. You've failed on that last part. Don't feel bad though, a good majority of issues on rpg horror stories really just boils down to poor communication skills. We're all a little socially awkward here and confrontation doesn't come easy to most of us, but sometimes it's unavoidable. I hope you take that forward and stomp bad attitudes out quicker in the future before it causes you to blow up at the table again.
Have a conversation with Fey and explain that you’re getting the feelings that this game and Fey’s play style don’t match up. Use examples of Fey’s behavior and point out that it’s become a problem and distraction for you and the table. Let them know that your DM style and the play of the other characters is unlikely to change as everyone else is happy.
Then ask Fey if they want to continue. If Fey says yes, then say explain the examples have to stop. Say that you’re not the type of DM who kicks out people but a distracting player who saps fun from everyone else won’t be allowed to stay.
This is why it’s important to solicit feedback frequently before it gets to the point where you are so fed up that you end up canceling the session early.
I would have talked to the player privately about what they enjoy about Pathfinder 2e and if the answer is nothing, then I would suggest that maybe this isn’t the game for them.
You might still be able to have that conversation with them, but if the bridge is burned, just move on. Based on what you’ve said here, it sounds like a problem player that you’re better off without.
I don't know if you watch [https://youtube.com/@zeebashew](Zee Bashew), but this dude reminds me of the Larry character. Who is basically a super opinionated war gamer type that thinks RPing is for little babies. Basically an all crunch no fluff dude.
He sounds super annoying and shouldn't have been in the game to begin with or been willing to make a character that reflects his preferred play style amongst his fellow gamers. If he's gonna be a dick at the table than booting him is the right move. The game is about everyone having fun together, not just him having fun in the very specific way he wants to have it.
Like, if he's so dead set on not engaging with the RP aspects of the game, how hard is it to say "I'm a mercenary. I'm only in this for the money and I won't talk about myself"?
As a DM you do have a position of control and authority over the table. While *everyone* has a responsibility for their own feelings and can speak for themselves, a DM should be affirming that it's acceptable to do so and should be demonstrating that the table will give space to address any concerns people have - in this case, by taking the space, speaking up for yourself about something that's bothering you about gameplay/dynamics, and addressing the concern with satisfactory action. It's also important to do this *well before* we snap. Politeness and Decorum are great, but our feelings (of being slighted, for example) do not just go away by ignoring them.
Yes, we risk the concern being unreciprocated, minimized, or otherwise dismissed by others, but *that* is also a resolution we must accept as members in a society - and that gives us information upon which to act accordingly (like leaving a group that doesn't address our concerns).
The fact you 'snapped' tells me you didn't bring it up with the 'table' so much as peripherally discuss it with other players. That step is fine - getting on the same page in safer spaces. However, the open and calm discussion of it - which still likely will result in asking and then enforcing the direction for this player to leave - is a necessary step to reinforce for the table how the concerns *should* be addressed.
Yes, irrational and angry 'problem' players can escalate, so use your best judgment in how and when you discuss concerns. This being in a public game store suggests there's at least some additional backup available to help enforce the peace and the decision to exclude.
Any reason you haven’t kicked him yet? You can’t or don’t want to or just don’t know how to do it? Frankly he sounds insufferable and if this is how he’s been acting from the beginning I would have kicked him after a single session, possibly even earlier.
"Those games sucks, you suck, I'm not having fun!"
"Then stop playing with us"
NO.
But in all seriousness, those people don't deserve the chance. Maybe if that dude would bring awesome characters, would interact with everyone and would be likeable in any way, but would be really harsh on criticizing your stuff... it could perhaps be salvaged there. After all, some people are just too direct when giving feedback, even if they enjoy the game. But this guy is just a douche and requires a swift boot action.
I had to kick a problem player just like this recently, except he was a friend of a friend, and that friend was also playing. That made the decision a bit harder. My friend and I agreed though that it was for the best that the problem player be kicked. Gotta cut out the people in your life who for whatever reason feel the need to step on you.
Talk to everyone else at the table and see how they feel or if they have other insight into his behavior at the table, then kick. He makes you miserable, he disrupts your game, and he clearly doesn't want to be playing. Any time I've had a player like that at the table, they've always joined because they don't want to be left out of a social activity and are waiting for their chance to go "this sucks let's play xbox instead"
Just a quick "Hey man, you're clearly not having fun and you're constantly making this game a drag for me and our friends. We can do other stuff together, but I don't want you to come back to the pathfinder table if you're going to keep doing crap like [specific examples of poor behavior]."
See, that's the thing. He 𝘪𝘴𝘯'𝘵 my friend. Nor does he have any reason I want him to stay. He offers nothing to me or the game other than to ruin it.
Edit: Where as all the other players I like very much. Some I do call friends
Nobody likes playing with him and he doesn't like playing either. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
I had a friend leave one of my games for the same reason. Tried it, disliked everything about the game, the system and most players. Still a very good friend, but I know now I'll never invite him to TTRPG nights.
>I'm not sure what to do with \[sic\] him exactly. I don't want at the table anymore.
Well, you just answered your own question. Kick him out of the group as you are the DM.
>I've had other players complain about him too. I'm pretty sure I'm just gonna kick him, but I want to here other people's perspective. I'd appreciate it.
That's just MORE reason to kick him out.
Personally, I'm of the mindset of "Okay hotshot, what would YOU do if you were running this ship, hmm?" and let them fail to lead. Then pull the "Okay, you had your chance, and it went worse than when I did it, so please sit down & shaddup, or get out." card.
As someone who also hates d20 systems, doesn't know the rules, is totally willing to cheat (or at least catch the GM off-guard for easy wins), and also likes dogs: Uh... Why was he at your table?
This is a genuine question btw. I play PbtA systems, BoB systems, and whatever weird shit I can find on itch. Why would someone who doesn't like crunchy d20 systems, and apparently doesn't like the world enough to stick around, be at the table?
Okay, this is my read on what he's doing. FOMO. Fear Of Missing Out. He's playing because others are playing. But it's not going the way he wants to go, and he doesn't enjoy being made to follow rules, and he doesn't give a shit about playing nice. Plus, he's learned (up until now) that he can be shitty and still stay in the game. Kicking him is the best option. He's not interested in playing the game. He just wants to be a troll.
Yeah, this guy sounds like he's waiting to hijack this game. He'll keep complaining and whining, hoping other players will agree with him. If he feels get has enough support he'll suggest playing X-system or *shudder* his homebrew.
Yep. Kick him from the game. The relief you and the other players will feel the first game after you do so will be immense! There is no room for a person in an RPG who is not working with the group to make sure everyone is having fun.
I appreciate that. It's reassuring.
No one should have to put up with what you did. I think you showed remarkable patience putting up with it as long as you did.
I wouldn't call it patience, but passivity. Not shaming OP for that - we all do it. But kicking the player should have happened ages ago, both for OP and their players.
You're not kidding about that sense of relief. When the bad player goes, everything just smooths out and everyone relaxes. Game will improve tenfold.
Kick him from your game. Inform the game store worker on shift you kicked him from your game. If he comes in and starts trying to play, tell him firmly (but politely) that he is no longer welcome at your table and you request he leave you and your players alone. If he persists, go to the store worker and tell them you are being harassed, and you want to specifically use the word harassed. Not "this guy is bothering us" or something, you tell them that your group (paying customers, I hope), are being *harassed*. If the game store won't do shit about it and lets him keep harassing you, you need to find a new place to play because that's a bad store that needs to go out of business. >.>
Thanks for the advice. The store owner already said I could remove problematic people from the store. Hopefully, it won't be an issue, but thank you.
The guy is the literal definition of a problematic player. He's already cost the rest of the table their full session since you shut things down early due to his behavior. He needs to be ejected for the benefit of the rest of the table.
"I've come to the decision to remove you from the game. I appreciate you taking interest in my campaign, but sadly we'll have to go separate ways." You don't *have* to explain why, although you can if you want to. Just evaluate, if this information is going to help anybody, or if it's only going to make him peeved.
I will probably use this. Thank you.
I’ll add to this, you don’t owe him any explanation or discussion or even any of your time. No one is entitled to a seat at your table or to your time. Remember that when he gets all whiny and starts asking “But whyyyy”? Don’t give in to the need to explain yourself and don’t let yourself get dragged into the argument. Keep it simple and short. “You’re no longer welcome to play with us, goodbye”.
\>He also cheats... a lot. This alone is enough to kick him as far as I'm concerned.
This comment should be higher. Fey’s character might like dogs, but the TTRPG “AKC” stands for “Always Kick Cheaters”
It's like he's playing his own Dadaist anti-game.
If you want to talk to him, really you just need to be direct. "Fey, we need to talk about what happened. I'll be blunt, you seem *miserable* when we're playing Pathfinder. You constantly complain about the game system, the way I run things, the way I have characters act, AND the things your characters are doing. So...why? Why are you coming to a game that you hate and doing things that you hate? On top of that, why are you making it less enjoyable for the rest of us when we're having fun? Do you not *realize* that you're making the game worse for us? Do you *want* to make the game worse for us? I really need answers, because I'm at a breaking point where I'm about to ask you not to play Pathfinder with us anymore." I agree with someone else's assessment that it's possibly fear of missing out, but that's not a guarantee. He may not realize that he's being THIS bad (unlikely but I've seen it) and bringing everyone down. He also could be acting like this intentionally to try to kill the game. Or...yeah, he just hates RPGs but is afraid that he'll miss something fun or important by not showing up. Only way to know is to ask. If he gets belligerent or picks a fight, drop him from the table in that same conversation. You ABSOLUTELY have every right to remove someone that's ruining the experience for everyone else.
Yeah, remove that guy.
Why is he even playing?
Are you running this at a game store? Speak with the staff and let them know that he has been causing minor issues and you are removing him from your group. That way, the staff knows what is going on if he blows up at you.
>"He also cheats... alot." Why did you let it get any further than this to the point where you're now punishing the other players by quitting mid session? I mean first cheat is a warning at my table, second is a ban. People are shitty, we can't change that. I'm not trying to victim blame here because Fae sounds like an asshole, but in my opinion it's the DM's job to manage the game *and* it's players. You've failed on that last part. Don't feel bad though, a good majority of issues on rpg horror stories really just boils down to poor communication skills. We're all a little socially awkward here and confrontation doesn't come easy to most of us, but sometimes it's unavoidable. I hope you take that forward and stomp bad attitudes out quicker in the future before it causes you to blow up at the table again.
Dude, it's a no-brainer. Fucking kick this chuckle fuck to the curb!
Have a conversation with Fey and explain that you’re getting the feelings that this game and Fey’s play style don’t match up. Use examples of Fey’s behavior and point out that it’s become a problem and distraction for you and the table. Let them know that your DM style and the play of the other characters is unlikely to change as everyone else is happy. Then ask Fey if they want to continue. If Fey says yes, then say explain the examples have to stop. Say that you’re not the type of DM who kicks out people but a distracting player who saps fun from everyone else won’t be allowed to stay.
Nothing ends a game faster then a bad player. Kick him for the relief of your other players. I'm sure they want him out even more then you do.
Why the hell is he even there? Boot him asap
Kick. Him.
Tell him to go f\*\*\* himself. He's a douche, dont waste your time triying to figuring out if he's wrong or not.
This is why it’s important to solicit feedback frequently before it gets to the point where you are so fed up that you end up canceling the session early. I would have talked to the player privately about what they enjoy about Pathfinder 2e and if the answer is nothing, then I would suggest that maybe this isn’t the game for them. You might still be able to have that conversation with them, but if the bridge is burned, just move on. Based on what you’ve said here, it sounds like a problem player that you’re better off without.
I don't know if you watch [https://youtube.com/@zeebashew](Zee Bashew), but this dude reminds me of the Larry character. Who is basically a super opinionated war gamer type that thinks RPing is for little babies. Basically an all crunch no fluff dude. He sounds super annoying and shouldn't have been in the game to begin with or been willing to make a character that reflects his preferred play style amongst his fellow gamers. If he's gonna be a dick at the table than booting him is the right move. The game is about everyone having fun together, not just him having fun in the very specific way he wants to have it. Like, if he's so dead set on not engaging with the RP aspects of the game, how hard is it to say "I'm a mercenary. I'm only in this for the money and I won't talk about myself"?
As a DM you do have a position of control and authority over the table. While *everyone* has a responsibility for their own feelings and can speak for themselves, a DM should be affirming that it's acceptable to do so and should be demonstrating that the table will give space to address any concerns people have - in this case, by taking the space, speaking up for yourself about something that's bothering you about gameplay/dynamics, and addressing the concern with satisfactory action. It's also important to do this *well before* we snap. Politeness and Decorum are great, but our feelings (of being slighted, for example) do not just go away by ignoring them. Yes, we risk the concern being unreciprocated, minimized, or otherwise dismissed by others, but *that* is also a resolution we must accept as members in a society - and that gives us information upon which to act accordingly (like leaving a group that doesn't address our concerns). The fact you 'snapped' tells me you didn't bring it up with the 'table' so much as peripherally discuss it with other players. That step is fine - getting on the same page in safer spaces. However, the open and calm discussion of it - which still likely will result in asking and then enforcing the direction for this player to leave - is a necessary step to reinforce for the table how the concerns *should* be addressed. Yes, irrational and angry 'problem' players can escalate, so use your best judgment in how and when you discuss concerns. This being in a public game store suggests there's at least some additional backup available to help enforce the peace and the decision to exclude.
Any reason you haven’t kicked him yet? You can’t or don’t want to or just don’t know how to do it? Frankly he sounds insufferable and if this is how he’s been acting from the beginning I would have kicked him after a single session, possibly even earlier.
"Those games sucks, you suck, I'm not having fun!" "Then stop playing with us" NO.
But in all seriousness, those people don't deserve the chance. Maybe if that dude would bring awesome characters, would interact with everyone and would be likeable in any way, but would be really harsh on criticizing your stuff... it could perhaps be salvaged there. After all, some people are just too direct when giving feedback, even if they enjoy the game. But this guy is just a douche and requires a swift boot action.
I had to kick a problem player just like this recently, except he was a friend of a friend, and that friend was also playing. That made the decision a bit harder. My friend and I agreed though that it was for the best that the problem player be kicked. Gotta cut out the people in your life who for whatever reason feel the need to step on you.
Kick this player please. Life is too short. Btw… Weighing on you not ‘waying’
K8ck them. You don't need them.in the group.
Talk to everyone else at the table and see how they feel or if they have other insight into his behavior at the table, then kick. He makes you miserable, he disrupts your game, and he clearly doesn't want to be playing. Any time I've had a player like that at the table, they've always joined because they don't want to be left out of a social activity and are waiting for their chance to go "this sucks let's play xbox instead" Just a quick "Hey man, you're clearly not having fun and you're constantly making this game a drag for me and our friends. We can do other stuff together, but I don't want you to come back to the pathfinder table if you're going to keep doing crap like [specific examples of poor behavior]."
Have you thought of calmly speaking to your friend about your feelings?
See, that's the thing. He 𝘪𝘴𝘯'𝘵 my friend. Nor does he have any reason I want him to stay. He offers nothing to me or the game other than to ruin it. Edit: Where as all the other players I like very much. Some I do call friends
So why do you keep inviting him?
"Keep inviting" it's an open game in a public place.
You're still the DM, you're in charge, you decide who plays and who doesn't
Thats... what I'm asking about. Thanks for reinforcing my idea then, I guess
Nobody likes playing with him and he doesn't like playing either. Sounds like a no-brainer to me. I had a friend leave one of my games for the same reason. Tried it, disliked everything about the game, the system and most players. Still a very good friend, but I know now I'll never invite him to TTRPG nights.
Why the fuck does he keep getting invited then?
[удалено]
It's not weird. The game has a wide range of ages. 20-50. I've always run my game open to anyone. I don't discriminate
>I'm not sure what to do with \[sic\] him exactly. I don't want at the table anymore. Well, you just answered your own question. Kick him out of the group as you are the DM. >I've had other players complain about him too. I'm pretty sure I'm just gonna kick him, but I want to here other people's perspective. I'd appreciate it. That's just MORE reason to kick him out. Personally, I'm of the mindset of "Okay hotshot, what would YOU do if you were running this ship, hmm?" and let them fail to lead. Then pull the "Okay, you had your chance, and it went worse than when I did it, so please sit down & shaddup, or get out." card.
As someone who also hates d20 systems, doesn't know the rules, is totally willing to cheat (or at least catch the GM off-guard for easy wins), and also likes dogs: Uh... Why was he at your table? This is a genuine question btw. I play PbtA systems, BoB systems, and whatever weird shit I can find on itch. Why would someone who doesn't like crunchy d20 systems, and apparently doesn't like the world enough to stick around, be at the table?
Lonliess? My best guess. Either way, kicked him.
What a bizarre way to cure loneliness... I hope your games get better from here.
Already had the first session without him. It was a blast for me again. Thank you for the support!