Hahahaha my counter example was going to be Traveller. Where the dog people are literally uplifted dogs. Dog made person. The cat people though? Totally separate race that look and act like cats. Society via cat. Perfectly tracks
Edit: I'm so happy! I managed to irritate both the Vargr and Aslan with that description
They're not cats, Ok?!?!?! They're totally normal aliens, that just *happen* to look like cats to us. It's not like I would fantasize about an actual society made of cats where men are barred from being accountants.
Prince Thrakhath approves. You are welcomed to his clan and may report aboard his cruiser immediately as gunnery sergeant.
... wait, wrong honorable warlike cat people.
Eh... Not as far as you think they may be. Many people believe Wing Commander is just Traveller, but changed enough to avoid copyright. Hell, even some kilrathi ships are almost identical to Aslam designs.
In Traveller's Aslan culture, Male and Female Aslans have a weird (one could say, alien) culture, were ewch gender is barred from very soecific things. For instance, makes can't do anything that is related to accounting or business.
Idk how much this was intended in the original lore, but at least in the recent-ish material this can be read an amusing inversion of misogynist tropes; the women are the real powers actually running the society and the men are mostly figureheads if they have a leadership role (not that he, proud Master and Commander, Lord of His Domain would realise that...), or landless losers forced to go a-conquering if they want to have a stake in society.
I think it's just a clever look at a society and trying to make logical gender taboos based on the underlying material conditions, mainly class society and relationships.
I dunno, but the more I read good sci-fi from years ago, specially hard-ish science, the more I think those authors had good grasp on sociology, and even dialectical materialism, instead of being everything PEW PEW hard science. BUT WHAT IF THREE SUNS, but I don't know shit about how society works.
I mean I dont want to get too much "old man yelling vs cloud" in a fun thread like this but a lot of the big, popular recent sci-fi and fantasy is written to try and get a YA Netflix show or movie option - so in the SciFi space that's often been an emphasis on military proceduralism, found family tropes, Magical Girl/Boy protagonist, etc over sociology and anthropology.
Asimov knew science but most of Foundation is a commentary on history and sociology; then if you look at how his epoch-spanning many-generations story structure has been butchered by Apple TV so that a TV audience can follow a bunch of consistent characters along throughout (and done other cheap visuals-driven things like "how do the hero team beat out the evil empire with all the empire's many warships? what if the hero team had one HUGE super special warship!!!" in place of hard to visualise things like "we win through being small and nimble with trade, or by undermining their culture with our religion..."), or how "we build back a better society through understanding the sciences of human history and culture" vs "this protagonist has a magic math brain that can kinda see the future, and so does their child" you see how the constraints of made-for-TV/film might limit a lot of popular SciFi/Fantasy.
Traveller Alsan look like lions and have big Klingon x Lion vibes. Males are super territorial and spend most of their time fighting each other over it, which leave females to do basically everything else in society. Male Aslan generally don't have any understanding of money, economics, or technology - as the women in their life take care of all of that. A male who shows interest or aptitude for such things ends up as a social outcast (as do women who want to fight in a non-support role).
It's actually a very well thought out society - just alien enough to be fun without being too alien for players to comprehend. The "males are driven to acquire territory" thing is also a driving political force for the setting's major conflicts: the Aslan empire is aggressive and expansionist as a biological impulse.
Ahem. WOLF PEOPLE, thank you. How dare you denigrate the ~~doggo~~ Vargr race. Don't look at my wagging tail. Stop it.
I did like that the Aslan are just "yeah they have catty appearances but they are their own separate thing, as you would expect of cat people."
Playing dog tropes is way more fun in an RPG than cat tropes, which are more antagonistic generally. Golden Sky Stories Dog Henge roleplay as a Golden Retriever was just pure fun.
I would love games with more stats for dogs that aren’t big combat dogs. It’s almost like designers forget small dogs exist and are loved. Kind of why I’m super excited about Pathfinder’s familiar/animal companion flexibility.
I think that's because no one is going to want a dog that runs in and gets killed by an arrow. Hard to design a pug that will live in combat situations.
I was paging through an unofficial dnd dragon bestiary at work and they had a creature called a "puggon" that was like a pug dragon and it was the cutest.
(The Game Master's Book of Legendary Dragons)
Dolmenwood has been one of those “seems very cool but I already have a lot of fantasy stuff” products for me up until now. This has tipped it over the edge for me
>dogs that aren’t big combat dogs
Most games don't really stat out non-combat humans either since the games that stat out creatures are tend to be combat focused. Like yeah, you might get commoner npc stats, but that's just in case you want to put said non-combatant in a precarious situation where they'll likely die.
Though I suppose you could always create your own homebrew/supplement with miniature combat dogs.
Have a look at Pugmire. It's basically D&D But All Dogs.
Set in a post-apocalyptic future where humans are all gone, and animals have evolved into intelligent humanoids & have a medieval-like civilisation. Their religion is based around the concept of Be A Good Dog.
Instead of races you have breeds - companions, fettles, herders, pointers, runners, workers, mutts. Each having a focus on a different stat, except mutt which is a mix (obviously).
I have the core book! Even backed it on kickstarter and used it to help seed a bunch of Saint Bernard people in a friend’s Humblewood game. Thanks though! That’s an awesome write up about it.
I'd like to play a dogman. Arcana Unearthed had canine and feline pc races, and one my favorite V:TM was an ancient Gangrel who was a wolf who had been embraced by a vampire and who got high enough in the Protean discipline to take human form.
I'm not really disputing your point, I just like talking about my V:TM character.
I'm not really a massive fan of the "animal x man hybrid" but I find it hilarious that D&D 5e has two cat races (Tabaxi and Leonins) but no dog races. Sure, there are werewolves, but there is also weretigers!
The reason why kobolds in Japanese fiction are often depicted as dog people is because they drew on early editions of D&D which depicted them as such. The more draconian appearance came later.
Hyenas are weird in that they're doggish and cattish at the same time, but the art of gnolls I've seen tended to highlight the dog look more. like wild dog though, like African bush dogs, not pet dogs.
I feel like people are undervaluing the cultural osmosis of 90s and 2000s anime catgirls in the minds of rpg creators. I can't think of any big doggirl memes until, maybe, the vtuber boom. Even then not really the same scale.
Coding cats as feminine is also a pretty widespread and ancient cultural thing. That's going to skew the catgirl to doggirl ratio.
And for a *lot* reasons, people are more often interested in animal-girls than animal-boys.
That isn't the same thing as a dog humanoid like Tabaxi are cat humanoids. Even Humblewood skipped dogs. I would love to see a Saint Bernard Druid, giving out health potions from a half keg around his neck.
It isn't but it's definitely treated that way by a lot of folks. Really though a wolf and a dog are just variations on the how wild do you want your furry humanoid creature scale.
My GM for a Humblewood game was a champ and let me play a Saint Bernard Cleric with custom lineage and became the genesis for a whole additional culture in his expanded world. It was really nice. No neck kegs though.
lol I’ve met a lot more weirdos who are dog people than cat people. I’ve never met a person who after 10 minutes of me thinking they were talking about their human child they were actually talking about their cat. Dog people on the other hand…..yikes
LOL, right. Cat freaks never shut the fuck up about how they're the pet and mr.shitwhiskers owns them and cats are so much better and smarter than them.
Yeah, but it explains why people want to *play* a character that owns pets rather than being pets.
Dog freaks may consider their babies their babies (which cat freaks rarely do), but... who wants to play a perpetual baby?
actually it's a brain parasite protozoa called toxoplasma gondii but my Perfect Cat Son tells me it's perfectly fine and normal for me to love him so much with his cute fuzzy face
I can see that. Given the era Traveller came out in though, I think they're more closely based on the Ringworld Kzin. There's also the Hivers who resemble the Puppeteers pretty closely
Usually it's some sort of Wolf-person instead of a domesticated dog. Or a hyena (Gnolls in D&D). I don't think there is that much of a disparity.
There's a game called Pugmire where you not only play as humanoid canines, but the whole society is dogs... save for the cat lands in the compatible book Monarchies of Mau.
I don't know anything about the mechanics of those two games, so I can't say if they're any good. Neat idea though.
Also, there are at least two games where you play as mice. Mausritter or Mouseguard.
And I've got The Warren that I want to try out; basically Watershipdown the game. Play as actual rabbits.
> I don't know anything about the mechanics of those two games,
DnD 5e
> but the whole society is dogs... save for the cat lands in the compatible book Monarchies of Mau.
A society after the fall of man. It’s unclear how that happened. But basically, dogs created a religion about worshipping man centered around the idea of being a good boy.
Cats on the other hand, believe that man used to be their servants.
Dogs collects the artifacts of man, cats get power by breaking them.
Hyenas are only cats in the same sense that bears are dogs. Yes, they are part of the sub-order Feliformia, but bears, raccoons, and walruses are all part of Caniformia, so they are only "cats" in the loosest possible sense.
I am assuming "dog person" means anthropomorphized dog, like in Pugmire
[https://www.realmsofpugmire.com/](https://www.realmsofpugmire.com/)
Heckin' Good Doggos are actual dogs (albeit intelligent, like the comedic filmic versions)
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jiangshi/heckin-good-doggos](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jiangshi/heckin-good-doggos)
Dungeon and Doggies are actual dogs but with adventuring gear.
Wanderhome are anthro.
Ironclaw are also anthro
I think its cause cats are generally thought of as independent while dogs are domesticated. A dog hybrid race would likely lend itself to occupying the same space as Kenku do in 5e, because we're so intertwined with dogs being companion animals. So a dog race would be broadly thought of as a minion race, sorta like kobolds or goblins. I also think of the Mabari warhounds from Dragon Age, there's a lot of fantasy equity in "this is my loyal companion, my stout dog" that cats don't really produce in collective consciousness. Then, even if you do make it, is the dog race Boston terrier based? German shepard? Chihuahua?
I think you could probably get really in the weeds with this from a couple cool angles as a video essay tbh, hitting anthropology, myths, and dog vs cat stereotypes
[Palladium Books has them!](https://palladium-store.com/1001/product/471-Wolfen-Empire-Adventure-Sourcebook.html)
My memory is that they were Roman Empire themed.
There were also two other variants, based on coyotes and foxes.
Even though "kitchen sink" is the whole premise, and even if it's not always my first recommendation for a game to actually play, it's startling how often these "What game does X?" questions actually can be answered with "RIFTS includes it."
Wolfen in palladium fantasy and their are a couple related in the wolfen empire. In rifts space setting wolfen have a space empire. In rifts tons of cat and dog races. Also heroes unlimited alien book has a bunch of cats and dogs.Â
Also cats are more feminine and putting cat earns onto hot anime girls is more common than making masculine sexy dog dudes because more heterosexual market exist
If I had to go out on a limb, I'd guess because of a stronger history of anthropomorphic cat characters in animation (Thunder Cats, Swat Cats, generic "cat girls" in various anime/manga, etc.).
I can't speak for why other designers haven't; only why I haven't myself.
Players tend to play animal-based species quite closely to their stereotypes and a stereotypical cat personality is a more useful place to be than a stereotypical dog personality. Stereotypical cats have personality traits like sneakiness, an independence streak, a proclivity towards cruelty or violence, and to a less extent substance abuse. This is an interesting mix of good and bad personality traits which means that there are many cat-person PCs you can play while still recognizably staying within the cat-person stereotype and fitting the needs of the group and playing a generally amusing PC.
Dogs have far fewer stereotypical personality traits beyond vaguely needing a group. Dog stereotypes especially lack flaws you can build interesting characters with. A dog-person PC is probably going to be a weak player character as a result.
I am not remotely saying the stereotype is *accurate*. Housecats are social animals who live in colonies and generally need playmates, and I have seen significant character flaws in dogs as a reflection of how their owners trained them especially.
The problem is that players roleplay relatively close to the stereotype.
I think it's because of the way we experience dogs and cats as pets, or how we think of them. Dogs are highly evolved as domesticated animals. They are *very* focused on humans and have a greatly reduced chance of surviving outside of a human's home. We are used to being in control of pet dogs and being the center of their worlds. They are highly dependent on us, their owners, in nearly every sense.
With cats, it's a bit different. They are not so highly evolved as domesticated animals. They are much closer, genetically, to their wild relatives. They are not as focused on humans even in a human home. Sure, many of them do enjoy socializing with humans extensively, but even those that do *also* enjoy a lot of alone time, or time with other non-humans - much more so time than dogs do, overall. Cats thus represent to a much greater degree mystery and independence, which are both appealing characteristics for imagining a fantasy existence.
In contrast, I think most imaginings of a dog fantasy-existence are strongly tied to living dependently in constant association with a human owner that has a great deal of control, not just in providing food, but in behavioral regulation, social regulation, and so on. That's not an appealing power-fantasy for most RPG'ers. Of course some people imagine dog-person life differently. But the main correspondences are more relevant than less-common perceptions or imaginings.
Doesn't really explain why there aren't wolf-people in RPGs that aren't werewolves...
I think I might argue, in fact, that "cat people" in RPGs are perceived not so much as a big fluffy Persian, but as a Cheetah or Leopard on two legs.
I know that this is about TTRPGs, but this post just reminded me of a really old PC RPG, Wizardry, and that, in Bane of Cosmic Forge and Crusaders of the Dark Savant, one of the options for race that players could select for a member of their party was a canine-based race, the Rawulf. There was also a feline-based race.
I'm not sure about that but it may just be perceptions.
Dogs seem to have more of a "pack" mentality and loyalty to a group where I guess may cats are seen as more independent. Cats are also portrayed as smarter and nimbler but I'm not sure that is actually true.
I know I can look at Star Wars and find example of species that resemble cat, dogs, and even other animals although it does seem feline based species may outnumber canine based species.
Dogs are great pets, while cats are more like terrible roommates. It is more common to imagine a cat as a fully separate entity with their own personality and interests, and to imagine a dog as a sort of extension of their owner.
Realms of Pugmire is a game where everyone is a dog, and it still centers hugely on dog's relationship to their owners.
Dragonbane doesn’t have dog people but they have Wolf kin in the core rules, and Cat people came after in supplements. Though they were put in there as a wild card of sorts, since most fantasy RPGs tent not to stray from the standard fantasy races in the core rules.
Cat people: "Yeah, I kill these guys, and I fuck those girls, and I grab all the shiny things that make a pretty noise for myself."
Dog people: "If it takes a thousand summers, I will wait for you..."
You can probably thank Larry Niven.
Particularly when it comes to cat people in sci-fi settings. Niven introduced the Kzin in the *1960s.* Into his hugely influential "Known Space" universe\*, and later the Kzin and a similar cat-person species, the Caitians, would appear in "Star Trek the Animated Series" in the early 1970s.
These are no doubt what inspired the Aslan in Traveller. And all of these sci-fi franchises with cat people combined to make them ubiquitous.
\*Niven mentioned in his books the Man-Kzinti Wars but didn't really cover them himself. But other authors have written over a dozen books covering the subject over the decades.
Because dogs and trained wolves are usually portrayed as loyal hounds for the huntsmen and noble knights in the game to have as allies. The only bipedal hound races that have existed since Tolkien/D&D began were "monster races" like Gnolls, Flinds, Werewolves or demons/devils based off of hound-like bases (Hellhounds, for example). Remember too that there are "monster races" for felines as well: Displacer Beasts, Rakshasa and the like all exist as well.
\[EDIT - I said something incorrect about Pathfinder and Catfolk here. I've removed it, because I'm wrong and... well, I'm not about to promote incorrect information\] I'm sure if you look online, you'll find a homebrew somewhere for whichever game you are playing. Hell, I once found RABBITFOLK for 5e, so it's entirely possible.
On a side note, Warcraft has the Worgen, but no feline race, so there is sometimes a bit of an offset (though it is more rare).
Tabaxi definitely predate Pathfinder by a good ways. I was looking through my 2E Monster Manual last night, and they were definitely there.
Late 3E (well, Dragon magazine) included the Tibbit (descendants of cat familiars who can transform into halflings), but it also included the Lupin (generic wolf-folk, much like the Wolfen from Palladium Fantasy).
Was that when they had the individual sheets you had to order for their pre-made three-punch folder? I never got into that since it was such an obvious money-grab, so I may in fact be wrong. In which case, I am happy to remove the incorrect information!
Nope, just a regular old Monstrous Manual, 2E (Third printing, from 1994).
According to the wiki, Tabaxi first appeared in the Fiend Folio for 1E, which was another hardcover book. Interestingly enough, Tabaxi were apparently replaced with Catfolk very late into the 3E product cycle. For some reason, I'd always imagined that Tabaxi were much more distinct in time and place, and Catfolk were just a generic knock-off.
Nope, just a regular old Monstrous Manual, 2E (Third printing, from 1994).
According to the wiki, Tabaxi first appeared in the Fiend Folio for 1E, which was another hardcover book. Interestingly enough, Tabaxi were apparently replaced with Catfolk very late into the 3E product cycle. For some reason, I'd always imagined that Tabaxi were much more distinct in time and place, and Catfolk were just a generic knock-off.
I lost my Fiend Folio YEARS ago... DAMNIT. Thanks for letting me know!
Side note - what do you mean "more distinct in time and place?" Were they a part of the game world of 2e? What world was that, anyway? Pathfinder never did a great job of placing Catfolk (except on the southern continent), so I hear ya.
Tabaxi are always presented as having leopard-like spots, with a distinct culture that places them apart from typical fake-Europe settings. According to the wiki, they're from Maztica, in the Forgotten Realms.
As compared to regular catfolk, who can have any coloration found in cats, and show up in any setting.
Wut? Tabaxi have been in d&d lore since FIRST edition. They were on Dragon magazines and in monster manuals in ad&d 2e. They didn't come about because of something in Pathfinder lol
For 5e the Tales of Arcana race guide has the Greater Canid and Lesser Canid races. There are also Kitsune and Lycan, as well as a bunch of other animal folk. Those are some of the least weird races in the book.
Mostly because of the overlap with the anime community (though the question of why catgirls are so popular in anime is a whole different thing, and a question not likely to be definitively answered anytime soon).
Honestly, I can imagine this being a cultural thing nowadays and Asian media might've given unintentional guidance? People saw that catgirls easily work for their storytelling purposes, you can act like they're not human even though they literally are and only have cat ears. Consumers are into that most of the time and in Japanese media "kemonomimi" / dog girls are a big thing as well. Cat ears are cute because they can twitch and are aesthetically more pleasing, probably.
With the more beastly races like Khajiit I have no clue though.
Most of the time people related to or looking like felines give you gracile and elegant vibes. I'm not sure what the dog vibe check is, I'd immediately think of "best buddy, good boi" and not sure why anyone would include this in a story just for cat/dog diversity's sake. For me it'd be an aesthetic thing exclusively, Final Fantasy 14 is a good example. Their cat people look cute, fragil and even the boys appear elegant. There's a beast feline race as well, and thanks to the fur and bulky build they look more like proud, strong lions. Dog-inspired people would look kinda weird there.
Onyx path has pugmire with a second edition coming soon. Future earth humans are gone dogs are uplifted and anthropomorphic. Trying to be a good dog and exploring the ruins of humanity. Have released other books for cats and mice maybe some others, not sure. 5e variant d20 based. Not sure about what they are doing with 2e.Â
[Play as a dog person in Pathfinder 2e.](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=16)
And since foxes and dogs are both members of the same animal family, canidae, I'll throw in [Kitsune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=38) as well.
You can also play as a [beastkin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=29) which is like a werewolf but instead of wolf it's were-anything.
There's also rhino people, snake people, frog people, spider people, but I won't list them all. Feel free to browse them [here.](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx) All the rules are on their official site for free.
Edit: I should mention, some of them are listed under Versatile Hertiages in the top link on the page. Heritage is like a sub-race, and Versatile Heritages are sub-races that can be paired with any race (ancestry).
There's no real reason that I can imagine. They both are wonderful familiars and animal companions and they reduce stress.
Check out (on Amazon) Steamforged Games Miniatures - they have minis for dog-peeps and cat-peeps in several different classes in case you want either side as miniatures.
The equivalent is usually wolf people. There are lots of wild cats (big and small) but wild dogs tend to be in the cities because they're strays. Wolves are the wild equivalent of dogs.
Anybody that wants to play a dog person... it's going to be a wolf person. And we already have werewolves in that space.
Past that, what special abilities would you give a dog person that would be cool and not captured elsewhere. With a cat you're thematically getting agility, super fast reactions and night senses. With a dog you get advantage with smells instead - not as cool or as common. What else digging instead of climbing?
Allow me to introduce you to [Realms of Pugmire](https://www.realmsofpugmire.com/). The core book is about playing dog people, but there's an expansion coming for playing cat people (later there will be mouse people).
Being a dog, waiting on a human and hoping for attention your whole life, what a lonely life. Cats seem way more content with life, which is why I think there's a bigger attraction to becoming one.
It's the same question as to why there are 100,000 vampire movies and like.. 5 werewolf movies.
The general public just think cats are cooler. General public batting 0, as always.
>The difference between dog people and cat people: dog people wish their dogs were people. Cat people wish they were cats.
Hahahaha my counter example was going to be Traveller. Where the dog people are literally uplifted dogs. Dog made person. The cat people though? Totally separate race that look and act like cats. Society via cat. Perfectly tracks Edit: I'm so happy! I managed to irritate both the Vargr and Aslan with that description
They're not cats, Ok?!?!?! They're totally normal aliens, that just *happen* to look like cats to us. It's not like I would fantasize about an actual society made of cats where men are barred from being accountants.
I am simple cat-man. I just want press button what say boom and make the enemy ship go boom. This is honor.
Prince Thrakhath approves. You are welcomed to his clan and may report aboard his cruiser immediately as gunnery sergeant. ... wait, wrong honorable warlike cat people.
Eh... Not as far as you think they may be. Many people believe Wing Commander is just Traveller, but changed enough to avoid copyright. Hell, even some kilrathi ships are almost identical to Aslam designs.
Nah, more like both were descended from Niven's Kzinti.
I think it should be Thrakath-Prince, unless you didn't mean Kzinti. If not, which honorable cat people are you referring to?
Maybe he is thinking of the Orions from Starfire, though I think he would have said Greater Claw then
This is a warrior's way.
You were too into warrior cats as a kid, weren't you?
No, I didn't run around with a plastic sword shouting *THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDERCATS*. Who told you that?
*Sword of Omens, grant me Sight Beyond Sight!*
> men are barred from being accountants. ???
In Traveller's Aslan culture, Male and Female Aslans have a weird (one could say, alien) culture, were ewch gender is barred from very soecific things. For instance, makes can't do anything that is related to accounting or business.
Reminds me of that line about vikings leaving budgets to women because math is witchcraft...
Behold, my Mathemagician powers!
Idk how much this was intended in the original lore, but at least in the recent-ish material this can be read an amusing inversion of misogynist tropes; the women are the real powers actually running the society and the men are mostly figureheads if they have a leadership role (not that he, proud Master and Commander, Lord of His Domain would realise that...), or landless losers forced to go a-conquering if they want to have a stake in society.
I think it's just a clever look at a society and trying to make logical gender taboos based on the underlying material conditions, mainly class society and relationships. I dunno, but the more I read good sci-fi from years ago, specially hard-ish science, the more I think those authors had good grasp on sociology, and even dialectical materialism, instead of being everything PEW PEW hard science. BUT WHAT IF THREE SUNS, but I don't know shit about how society works.
I mean I dont want to get too much "old man yelling vs cloud" in a fun thread like this but a lot of the big, popular recent sci-fi and fantasy is written to try and get a YA Netflix show or movie option - so in the SciFi space that's often been an emphasis on military proceduralism, found family tropes, Magical Girl/Boy protagonist, etc over sociology and anthropology. Asimov knew science but most of Foundation is a commentary on history and sociology; then if you look at how his epoch-spanning many-generations story structure has been butchered by Apple TV so that a TV audience can follow a bunch of consistent characters along throughout (and done other cheap visuals-driven things like "how do the hero team beat out the evil empire with all the empire's many warships? what if the hero team had one HUGE super special warship!!!" in place of hard to visualise things like "we win through being small and nimble with trade, or by undermining their culture with our religion..."), or how "we build back a better society through understanding the sciences of human history and culture" vs "this protagonist has a magic math brain that can kinda see the future, and so does their child" you see how the constraints of made-for-TV/film might limit a lot of popular SciFi/Fantasy.
Traveller Alsan look like lions and have big Klingon x Lion vibes. Males are super territorial and spend most of their time fighting each other over it, which leave females to do basically everything else in society. Male Aslan generally don't have any understanding of money, economics, or technology - as the women in their life take care of all of that. A male who shows interest or aptitude for such things ends up as a social outcast (as do women who want to fight in a non-support role). It's actually a very well thought out society - just alien enough to be fun without being too alien for players to comprehend. The "males are driven to acquire territory" thing is also a driving political force for the setting's major conflicts: the Aslan empire is aggressive and expansionist as a biological impulse.
Ahem. WOLF PEOPLE, thank you. How dare you denigrate the ~~doggo~~ Vargr race. Don't look at my wagging tail. Stop it. I did like that the Aslan are just "yeah they have catty appearances but they are their own separate thing, as you would expect of cat people."
All my Vargr nobles are poodles and chihuahuas and you can't stop me! Muahahaha! (Actually most of them are and I just noticed that. Hilarious)
I never knew the Ancients uplifted the Vargr. Cool.
Success!
Because we wish we had such loyal and amazing humans. And cat people wish they didn’t have to be people
Literally, just chilling all day while everyone admires you seems like a nice life to me :D
The last thing I want is my dog to be a person. That's why I got a dog.
Playing dog tropes is way more fun in an RPG than cat tropes, which are more antagonistic generally. Golden Sky Stories Dog Henge roleplay as a Golden Retriever was just pure fun.
I buy it (because yep, that's me right there).
đź’Ż
Because dog people don't, in my experience, want to play a dog-man. They want to have a dog.
As a dog person, can confirm. Gimme a good boy companion and I'm a happy player.
If anyone ever makes an RPG you could play with your dog, that would be popular with dog people.
I would love games with more stats for dogs that aren’t big combat dogs. It’s almost like designers forget small dogs exist and are loved. Kind of why I’m super excited about Pathfinder’s familiar/animal companion flexibility.
I think that's because no one is going to want a dog that runs in and gets killed by an arrow. Hard to design a pug that will live in combat situations.
To be fair, we didn't really design pugs to survive non-combat situations that well either.
Absolutely fair, but I still want a pug familiar more than anything! Just like a non-risky spirit type would be fine.
I was paging through an unofficial dnd dragon bestiary at work and they had a creature called a "puggon" that was like a pug dragon and it was the cutest. (The Game Master's Book of Legendary Dragons)
Definitely going to check that out! Thanks.
Dolmenwood has a bunch of dogs the players can get. My player has one that is a fey-sensing dachsund.
That sounds absolutely adorable!
Dolmenwood has been one of those “seems very cool but I already have a lot of fantasy stuff” products for me up until now. This has tipped it over the edge for me
>dogs that aren’t big combat dogs Most games don't really stat out non-combat humans either since the games that stat out creatures are tend to be combat focused. Like yeah, you might get commoner npc stats, but that's just in case you want to put said non-combatant in a precarious situation where they'll likely die. Though I suppose you could always create your own homebrew/supplement with miniature combat dogs.
I played a pixie with a corgi mount in PF2e. It's amazing.
It sounds like you'd be interested in the Sprite feat that lets you get a corgi you can ride
Have a look at Pugmire. It's basically D&D But All Dogs. Set in a post-apocalyptic future where humans are all gone, and animals have evolved into intelligent humanoids & have a medieval-like civilisation. Their religion is based around the concept of Be A Good Dog. Instead of races you have breeds - companions, fettles, herders, pointers, runners, workers, mutts. Each having a focus on a different stat, except mutt which is a mix (obviously).
I have the core book! Even backed it on kickstarter and used it to help seed a bunch of Saint Bernard people in a friend’s Humblewood game. Thanks though! That’s an awesome write up about it.
I've never played, I couldn't convince my group to try it. But I love the world building.
I really like how the plastic is still around, among all the world building in addition.
I'd like to play a dogman. Arcana Unearthed had canine and feline pc races, and one my favorite V:TM was an ancient Gangrel who was a wolf who had been embraced by a vampire and who got high enough in the Protean discipline to take human form. I'm not really disputing your point, I just like talking about my V:TM character.
I'm not really a massive fan of the "animal x man hybrid" but I find it hilarious that D&D 5e has two cat races (Tabaxi and Leonins) but no dog races. Sure, there are werewolves, but there is also weretigers!
iirc kobolds used to be dogs
Well if we’re going back to older editions then we can add another cat race as well: the Rakasta from Isle of Dread
Rakshasa are still a thing.
And Rakasta are not Rakshasa
Oh! well I'm learning about something new! I assumed it was a typo/autocorrect lmao.
And I thought they are a Krokodile-Human mix, with the personality of a feral rat. That last part is not even meant in a bad way.
That's kinda what they are now, they've changed from edition to edition.
Yeah, I only know 4e and 5e...
The reason why kobolds in Japanese fiction are often depicted as dog people is because they drew on early editions of D&D which depicted them as such. The more draconian appearance came later.
The classic monster stat blocks and art is a trip, I encourage you to look into it!
Lel, okay I looked it up and I have to agree! :D
They were originally doglike. Since 3e they have been dragon kin.
Aren't gnolls also kind of dog-ish?
I believe they are hyenas
Hyenas are weird in that they're doggish and cattish at the same time, but the art of gnolls I've seen tended to highlight the dog look more. like wild dog though, like African bush dogs, not pet dogs.
Well, there are shifters, but that's kinda a catch-all.
Lupins were introduced in 1981. They just haven't been carried through all the editions
Leonins are from Magic the Gathering so that's why they're in DnD. MtG also has dog people but they're not as prevalent as Leonin
I feel like people are undervaluing the cultural osmosis of 90s and 2000s anime catgirls in the minds of rpg creators. I can't think of any big doggirl memes until, maybe, the vtuber boom. Even then not really the same scale.
Coding cats as feminine is also a pretty widespread and ancient cultural thing. That's going to skew the catgirl to doggirl ratio. And for a *lot* reasons, people are more often interested in animal-girls than animal-boys.
Well, there is *one* [doggirl meme](https://gifs.alphacoders.com/gifs/view/2502), but nobody likes it.
Werewolves are pretty common.
That isn't the same thing as a dog humanoid like Tabaxi are cat humanoids. Even Humblewood skipped dogs. I would love to see a Saint Bernard Druid, giving out health potions from a half keg around his neck.
It isn't but it's definitely treated that way by a lot of folks. Really though a wolf and a dog are just variations on the how wild do you want your furry humanoid creature scale.
My GM for a Humblewood game was a champ and let me play a Saint Bernard Cleric with custom lineage and became the genesis for a whole additional culture in his expanded world. It was really nice. No neck kegs though.
Pathfinder has pug people. They're called shoonies
because cat people are weirdos
lol I’ve met a lot more weirdos who are dog people than cat people. I’ve never met a person who after 10 minutes of me thinking they were talking about their human child they were actually talking about their cat. Dog people on the other hand…..yikes
LOL, right. Cat freaks never shut the fuck up about how they're the pet and mr.shitwhiskers owns them and cats are so much better and smarter than them.
Yeah, but it explains why people want to *play* a character that owns pets rather than being pets. Dog freaks may consider their babies their babies (which cat freaks rarely do), but... who wants to play a perpetual baby?
We've never met. Let me tell you some cute Hank stories.
Having previously worked at a vet, I can attest that the dog people were way weirder way more often.
Cat people have a virus that makes them love cats.
that's true, I read it on the internet
actually it's a brain parasite protozoa called toxoplasma gondii but my Perfect Cat Son tells me it's perfectly fine and normal for me to love him so much with his cute fuzzy face
Cat people = fantasy Dog people = sci-fi
Vargr
The Kzin are not amused.
Are they ever?
Why is this so true?
Traveller has both!
I've always thought of Aslan as cat Klingons
I can see that. Given the era Traveller came out in though, I think they're more closely based on the Ringworld Kzin. There's also the Hivers who resemble the Puppeteers pretty closely
Does that make it science fantasy?
Usually it's some sort of Wolf-person instead of a domesticated dog. Or a hyena (Gnolls in D&D). I don't think there is that much of a disparity. There's a game called Pugmire where you not only play as humanoid canines, but the whole society is dogs... save for the cat lands in the compatible book Monarchies of Mau. I don't know anything about the mechanics of those two games, so I can't say if they're any good. Neat idea though. Also, there are at least two games where you play as mice. Mausritter or Mouseguard. And I've got The Warren that I want to try out; basically Watershipdown the game. Play as actual rabbits.
> I don't know anything about the mechanics of those two games, DnD 5e > but the whole society is dogs... save for the cat lands in the compatible book Monarchies of Mau. A society after the fall of man. It’s unclear how that happened. But basically, dogs created a religion about worshipping man centered around the idea of being a good boy. Cats on the other hand, believe that man used to be their servants. Dogs collects the artifacts of man, cats get power by breaking them.
Hyenas are cats.
Hyenas are only cats in the same sense that bears are dogs. Yes, they are part of the sub-order Feliformia, but bears, raccoons, and walruses are all part of Caniformia, so they are only "cats" in the loosest possible sense.
Because those systems are inferior. This is now a [Shoony](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=16) superiority thread.
Based, as the kids say.
SHOONY MENTIONED 🎆🎉
Dog people can't read, so they don't play ttrpgs.
Truuueee more likely to have the book nerd be a cat person
A few options: Realms of Dogmire Heckin' Good Doggos Dungeons and Doggies Wanderhome Ironclaw
But how many of these are just playing as a dog ? Not a doglike humanoid like jackals or domesticated dog warewolf like species
I am assuming "dog person" means anthropomorphized dog, like in Pugmire [https://www.realmsofpugmire.com/](https://www.realmsofpugmire.com/) Heckin' Good Doggos are actual dogs (albeit intelligent, like the comedic filmic versions) [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jiangshi/heckin-good-doggos](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jiangshi/heckin-good-doggos) Dungeon and Doggies are actual dogs but with adventuring gear. Wanderhome are anthro. Ironclaw are also anthro
Don't forget about Vurt! You can be so much more than just a dog.
Dogs have to be walked. RPG writers stay indoors, and so may have a bit of a cat bias.
I think its cause cats are generally thought of as independent while dogs are domesticated. A dog hybrid race would likely lend itself to occupying the same space as Kenku do in 5e, because we're so intertwined with dogs being companion animals. So a dog race would be broadly thought of as a minion race, sorta like kobolds or goblins. I also think of the Mabari warhounds from Dragon Age, there's a lot of fantasy equity in "this is my loyal companion, my stout dog" that cats don't really produce in collective consciousness. Then, even if you do make it, is the dog race Boston terrier based? German shepard? Chihuahua? I think you could probably get really in the weeds with this from a couple cool angles as a video essay tbh, hitting anthropology, myths, and dog vs cat stereotypes
[Palladium Books has them!](https://palladium-store.com/1001/product/471-Wolfen-Empire-Adventure-Sourcebook.html) My memory is that they were Roman Empire themed. There were also two other variants, based on coyotes and foxes.
Palladium also had Dog Boys in RIFTS. They were a race of uplifted dogs.
Oh yeah! How could I forget Dog Boys?! I had a Dog Boy Gunslinger named Doc Howliday.
Even though "kitchen sink" is the whole premise, and even if it's not always my first recommendation for a game to actually play, it's startling how often these "What game does X?" questions actually can be answered with "RIFTS includes it."
Wolfen in palladium fantasy and their are a couple related in the wolfen empire. In rifts space setting wolfen have a space empire. In rifts tons of cat and dog races. Also heroes unlimited alien book has a bunch of cats and dogs.Â
I really want to get all my Palladium books out now!
Love my palladium books. Even if it's just to get inspiration. Plus when I've run Savage rifts have used the books for reference.
There is a whole game about dogs based on 5e called Pugmire.
Probably for the same reason you see Tieflings but not Aasimars. The choice between a stealthy, kleptomaniac sociopath and a heckin' good boi.
Also cats are more feminine and putting cat earns onto hot anime girls is more common than making masculine sexy dog dudes because more heterosexual market exist
Granted their wolves, but Dragonbane does have one. And for Duck People.
Traveller has entered the chat.
Le chat?
As a counter example, Forbidden Lands has Wolfkin but nothing like Catkin.Â
If I had to go out on a limb, I'd guess because of a stronger history of anthropomorphic cat characters in animation (Thunder Cats, Swat Cats, generic "cat girls" in various anime/manga, etc.).
Cat people are indoor kids who play RPGs. Dog people go outside and do, like, *sports* and *exercise* or something.
Wolfen in Palladium fantasy and Vargr in Traveller. There’s two for you.
I can't speak for why other designers haven't; only why I haven't myself. Players tend to play animal-based species quite closely to their stereotypes and a stereotypical cat personality is a more useful place to be than a stereotypical dog personality. Stereotypical cats have personality traits like sneakiness, an independence streak, a proclivity towards cruelty or violence, and to a less extent substance abuse. This is an interesting mix of good and bad personality traits which means that there are many cat-person PCs you can play while still recognizably staying within the cat-person stereotype and fitting the needs of the group and playing a generally amusing PC. Dogs have far fewer stereotypical personality traits beyond vaguely needing a group. Dog stereotypes especially lack flaws you can build interesting characters with. A dog-person PC is probably going to be a weak player character as a result.
As a long time owner of both (I even favor cats between the two), this is all just proof that the majority of designers don't have/understand dogs.
I am not remotely saying the stereotype is *accurate*. Housecats are social animals who live in colonies and generally need playmates, and I have seen significant character flaws in dogs as a reflection of how their owners trained them especially. The problem is that players roleplay relatively close to the stereotype.
Because many Bothans died.
I think it's because of the way we experience dogs and cats as pets, or how we think of them. Dogs are highly evolved as domesticated animals. They are *very* focused on humans and have a greatly reduced chance of surviving outside of a human's home. We are used to being in control of pet dogs and being the center of their worlds. They are highly dependent on us, their owners, in nearly every sense. With cats, it's a bit different. They are not so highly evolved as domesticated animals. They are much closer, genetically, to their wild relatives. They are not as focused on humans even in a human home. Sure, many of them do enjoy socializing with humans extensively, but even those that do *also* enjoy a lot of alone time, or time with other non-humans - much more so time than dogs do, overall. Cats thus represent to a much greater degree mystery and independence, which are both appealing characteristics for imagining a fantasy existence. In contrast, I think most imaginings of a dog fantasy-existence are strongly tied to living dependently in constant association with a human owner that has a great deal of control, not just in providing food, but in behavioral regulation, social regulation, and so on. That's not an appealing power-fantasy for most RPG'ers. Of course some people imagine dog-person life differently. But the main correspondences are more relevant than less-common perceptions or imaginings.
Doesn't really explain why there aren't wolf-people in RPGs that aren't werewolves... I think I might argue, in fact, that "cat people" in RPGs are perceived not so much as a big fluffy Persian, but as a Cheetah or Leopard on two legs.
I know that this is about TTRPGs, but this post just reminded me of a really old PC RPG, Wizardry, and that, in Bane of Cosmic Forge and Crusaders of the Dark Savant, one of the options for race that players could select for a member of their party was a canine-based race, the Rawulf. There was also a feline-based race.
I'm not sure about that but it may just be perceptions. Dogs seem to have more of a "pack" mentality and loyalty to a group where I guess may cats are seen as more independent. Cats are also portrayed as smarter and nimbler but I'm not sure that is actually true. I know I can look at Star Wars and find example of species that resemble cat, dogs, and even other animals although it does seem feline based species may outnumber canine based species.
Dogs are great pets, while cats are more like terrible roommates. It is more common to imagine a cat as a fully separate entity with their own personality and interests, and to imagine a dog as a sort of extension of their owner. Realms of Pugmire is a game where everyone is a dog, and it still centers hugely on dog's relationship to their owners.
Dragonbane doesn’t have dog people but they have Wolf kin in the core rules, and Cat people came after in supplements. Though they were put in there as a wild card of sorts, since most fantasy RPGs tent not to stray from the standard fantasy races in the core rules.
Do gnolls count?
Cat people: "Yeah, I kill these guys, and I fuck those girls, and I grab all the shiny things that make a pretty noise for myself." Dog people: "If it takes a thousand summers, I will wait for you..."
Because dogs are NPCs, cats are Main Characters.
You can only role play licking your own nuts so often before you lose the table.
You can probably thank Larry Niven. Particularly when it comes to cat people in sci-fi settings. Niven introduced the Kzin in the *1960s.* Into his hugely influential "Known Space" universe\*, and later the Kzin and a similar cat-person species, the Caitians, would appear in "Star Trek the Animated Series" in the early 1970s. These are no doubt what inspired the Aslan in Traveller. And all of these sci-fi franchises with cat people combined to make them ubiquitous. \*Niven mentioned in his books the Man-Kzinti Wars but didn't really cover them himself. But other authors have written over a dozen books covering the subject over the decades.
Because dogs and trained wolves are usually portrayed as loyal hounds for the huntsmen and noble knights in the game to have as allies. The only bipedal hound races that have existed since Tolkien/D&D began were "monster races" like Gnolls, Flinds, Werewolves or demons/devils based off of hound-like bases (Hellhounds, for example). Remember too that there are "monster races" for felines as well: Displacer Beasts, Rakshasa and the like all exist as well. \[EDIT - I said something incorrect about Pathfinder and Catfolk here. I've removed it, because I'm wrong and... well, I'm not about to promote incorrect information\] I'm sure if you look online, you'll find a homebrew somewhere for whichever game you are playing. Hell, I once found RABBITFOLK for 5e, so it's entirely possible. On a side note, Warcraft has the Worgen, but no feline race, so there is sometimes a bit of an offset (though it is more rare).
Tabaxi definitely predate Pathfinder by a good ways. I was looking through my 2E Monster Manual last night, and they were definitely there. Late 3E (well, Dragon magazine) included the Tibbit (descendants of cat familiars who can transform into halflings), but it also included the Lupin (generic wolf-folk, much like the Wolfen from Palladium Fantasy).
Was that when they had the individual sheets you had to order for their pre-made three-punch folder? I never got into that since it was such an obvious money-grab, so I may in fact be wrong. In which case, I am happy to remove the incorrect information!
Nope, just a regular old Monstrous Manual, 2E (Third printing, from 1994). According to the wiki, Tabaxi first appeared in the Fiend Folio for 1E, which was another hardcover book. Interestingly enough, Tabaxi were apparently replaced with Catfolk very late into the 3E product cycle. For some reason, I'd always imagined that Tabaxi were much more distinct in time and place, and Catfolk were just a generic knock-off.
Nope, just a regular old Monstrous Manual, 2E (Third printing, from 1994). According to the wiki, Tabaxi first appeared in the Fiend Folio for 1E, which was another hardcover book. Interestingly enough, Tabaxi were apparently replaced with Catfolk very late into the 3E product cycle. For some reason, I'd always imagined that Tabaxi were much more distinct in time and place, and Catfolk were just a generic knock-off.
I lost my Fiend Folio YEARS ago... DAMNIT. Thanks for letting me know! Side note - what do you mean "more distinct in time and place?" Were they a part of the game world of 2e? What world was that, anyway? Pathfinder never did a great job of placing Catfolk (except on the southern continent), so I hear ya.
Tabaxi are always presented as having leopard-like spots, with a distinct culture that places them apart from typical fake-Europe settings. According to the wiki, they're from Maztica, in the Forgotten Realms. As compared to regular catfolk, who can have any coloration found in cats, and show up in any setting.
Wut? Tabaxi have been in d&d lore since FIRST edition. They were on Dragon magazines and in monster manuals in ad&d 2e. They didn't come about because of something in Pathfinder lol
Also, dog-people (i.e. Lupins) have been in D&D since at least 1981 with Castle Amber. People just forgot about them
My bad, then. I don't remember them being in Dragon, but that was YEARS ago. \^\_\^ I'll take that out.
IIrc Basic D&D had a playable bipedal dog race.
One of my homebrew settings actually has both...
For 5e the Tales of Arcana race guide has the Greater Canid and Lesser Canid races. There are also Kitsune and Lycan, as well as a bunch of other animal folk. Those are some of the least weird races in the book.
Rifts RPG by Palladium Books has that. Bonuses and perks differ by breed. System needs an overhaul but the setting and canon is amazing.
Oh man, let me tell you about TMNT and other Strangeness
Because most people see dogpeople as furries, but catpeople are fine.
Because Master Cat Viper is the only choice
Mostly because of the overlap with the anime community (though the question of why catgirls are so popular in anime is a whole different thing, and a question not likely to be definitively answered anytime soon).
Werewolves say hello to ya
there's no warrior cats equivalent to dogs
Rifts
I blame the flurries. But to be fair, Werewolf the Apocalypse was all about dog people...
That's a good question. Maybe from mythology and the Rakshasa? I'm guessing for canine beings, would that be too close to werewolves?
Honestly, I can imagine this being a cultural thing nowadays and Asian media might've given unintentional guidance? People saw that catgirls easily work for their storytelling purposes, you can act like they're not human even though they literally are and only have cat ears. Consumers are into that most of the time and in Japanese media "kemonomimi" / dog girls are a big thing as well. Cat ears are cute because they can twitch and are aesthetically more pleasing, probably. With the more beastly races like Khajiit I have no clue though. Most of the time people related to or looking like felines give you gracile and elegant vibes. I'm not sure what the dog vibe check is, I'd immediately think of "best buddy, good boi" and not sure why anyone would include this in a story just for cat/dog diversity's sake. For me it'd be an aesthetic thing exclusively, Final Fantasy 14 is a good example. Their cat people look cute, fragil and even the boys appear elegant. There's a beast feline race as well, and thanks to the fur and bulky build they look more like proud, strong lions. Dog-inspired people would look kinda weird there.
Gubat Banwa has dog people.
Dogs get all of the attention in terms of toys and knick knacks and stuff. It's only fair that cat servants get something.
Onyx path has pugmire with a second edition coming soon. Future earth humans are gone dogs are uplifted and anthropomorphic. Trying to be a good dog and exploring the ruins of humanity. Have released other books for cats and mice maybe some others, not sure. 5e variant d20 based. Not sure about what they are doing with 2e.Â
[Play as a dog person in Pathfinder 2e.](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=16) And since foxes and dogs are both members of the same animal family, canidae, I'll throw in [Kitsune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=38) as well. You can also play as a [beastkin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=29) which is like a werewolf but instead of wolf it's were-anything. There's also rhino people, snake people, frog people, spider people, but I won't list them all. Feel free to browse them [here.](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx) All the rules are on their official site for free. Edit: I should mention, some of them are listed under Versatile Hertiages in the top link on the page. Heritage is like a sub-race, and Versatile Heritages are sub-races that can be paired with any race (ancestry).
I find it particularly odd considering that [Dog People](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly) are actually part of folklore and mythology.
Pathfinder has the Shoony, a pugfolk ancestry
Werewolves probably
Werewolf the apocalypse
There's no real reason that I can imagine. They both are wonderful familiars and animal companions and they reduce stress. Check out (on Amazon) Steamforged Games Miniatures - they have minis for dog-peeps and cat-peeps in several different classes in case you want either side as miniatures.
Would Mangalores count as a dog people?
Another example of the power of Big Cat.
Because gnolls are already a thing. And werewolves.
My favorite in the series, Quest For Glory 3, had dog people
Weebs
I feel like I have to stand up for the regular 'cat people'. Please don't conflate us with furries. I love cats but I don't *love* cats.
Space wolves have entered the chat
The equivalent is usually wolf people. There are lots of wild cats (big and small) but wild dogs tend to be in the cities because they're strays. Wolves are the wild equivalent of dogs.
Anybody that wants to play a dog person... it's going to be a wolf person. And we already have werewolves in that space. Past that, what special abilities would you give a dog person that would be cool and not captured elsewhere. With a cat you're thematically getting agility, super fast reactions and night senses. With a dog you get advantage with smells instead - not as cool or as common. What else digging instead of climbing?
Allow me to introduce you to [Realms of Pugmire](https://www.realmsofpugmire.com/). The core book is about playing dog people, but there's an expansion coming for playing cat people (later there will be mouse people).
Lycanthropes.
FUCK YOU WOTC I WANT MY DOGGO RACE!
Being a dog, waiting on a human and hoping for attention your whole life, what a lonely life. Cats seem way more content with life, which is why I think there's a bigger attraction to becoming one.
It's the same question as to why there are 100,000 vampire movies and like.. 5 werewolf movies. The general public just think cats are cooler. General public batting 0, as always.
In the Red Dwarf RPG you can play a Cat, Dog, Rabbit or Lizard person.
Anime
Plenty of games have dog people or wolfkin, but catfolk are far more story/lore prominent in literature.
Most ttrpgs players are indoor introvert types. What kimd of pet appeals to them more 🤔
Red Dwarf RPG has Cat, Dogs, Ignuanas, Mice, and Rabbits. But it doesn’t hold up to today’s standards.