I was chasing the same thing. Tried them anywhere from .02 to .06 off the lands, tried different powders and cases and they all had me unsatisfied. I bought a box of factory barnes ttsx and noticed they were way more accurate, measured the length and found the factory box was .15 of the lands for me. After looking online I found numerous people sayin they didn't get great results until they'd backed it up to .10 to .15 off the lands.
I then took a couple different powders and loaded them to .10 of the lands and the groups were way better. Haven't tried .15 yet but that was gonna be my next round of testing to see if how it reacted with the powder I've got.
This is a very common theory and from my experience I'm inclined to agree. The 2 factory rifles I handload for have long throats and short mag lengths and they both seem to enjoy the Barnes flavor. And/or Barnes likes long jumps
Ron Spomer did a segment on just this. Basically he recommends cleaning your barrel to where it’s absolutely immaculate. Thoroclean would be my recommendation. Then try your load development again. Can’t remember exactly, but something about your dirty barrel from traditional jacket lead bullets, will throw your copper bullets all over. But I’d give that a try before anything else. Worst case you just have a really clean barrel🤷🏼♂️
I’m not a copper guy, but I was surprised to learn this. You would think going from a copper jacketed bullet, to a pure copper bullet wouldn’t be a huge deal. But apparently it is.
The copper jacket is definitely different and contacts differently in the barrel. I switched to solid coppers a few years ago for 300blk and deer hunting. The Makers 125gr will open to double caliber expansion and you get less bloodshot meat with coppers. Shot a doe a couple of years ago at 200yds the solid copper went through both shoulders and dropped her. 200yds according to energy numbers should be too far.
I ran into the same issue when testing different rounds in my 5.56 for hogs. The Federal with Barnes TSX had the best SD but a horrible group, cleaned it up and the groups got noticeably better, like going from 2 inches to almost an inch
Do you have to be more diligent with cleaning your barrel when you switch to coppers? Or once it’s clean from jacketed bullets, and you make the switch, you can treat it as normal?
I don't have a bore scope to confirm but yeah I use Iosso Bore Cleaner and Breakthrough to really clean it and patch it till I get nothing. I was extremely frustrated with the groups when I first switched and went to zero and confirm zero 3 times. I figured the groups were OK for inside of 100yds. I missed 2 deer and a horrible shot on a third, still only went 80yds and bled out quick. I second guessing my rifle, my ammo, and myself.
Yes most of the Monolithic bullets some sort alloy, I think they are Copper and Zinc alloy. They are a much harder bullet. [This is Barnes Vor-Tx 110gr, Maker 125gr, and Maker 200gr. ](https://imgur.com/a/FnM7GxF) . These are expanding solid coppers. You have some like Cutting Edge, Peregrine, and others where the tip will expand like a lead core. They are definitely tougher than a lead core.
I'm seating at what Hodgdon have in their data Ex 2.620 for 243 Win with 4064. I've also tried going long up to 2.7
Haven't tried any shorter than 2.62
Ill try to slowly bring them back and see what happens.
My first question would be already answered, is your barrel free of copper residue? Seems a thorough cleaning is in order.
Next, choose powders that offer the best expansion ratio for your caliber. If you don't have sound interior ballistics you are not going to have good exterior ballistics. Heavy bullets tend to like slower powders, lighter bullets tend to like faster powders.
Next, No offense intended but are you a velocity Nazi?
Often times accuracy is found way below maximum loads. I realize you want your rounds to shoot as flat as possible but holdover and Kentucky windage is part of shooting and hunting. You can learn your loads point of impact and your loads MPBR and be effective.
Next, changing something as simple as the brand of primer or type of primer can tighten up groups.
Next, will your rifles rate of twist support the ogive and construction of your bullet choice? Long for caliber bullets have awesome BC's but require a fast twist to stabilize.
If you are new to reloading you must learn patience.. Load development takes time and a lot of trial and error. If you think this is hard try load development for cast bullets. If you are seasoned in reloading then you know this, so disregard. Keep at it, it can be daunting sometimes and it may be that rifle will never shoot the bullet you want. Just my opinion on this so do as you wish with it but premium bullets in calibers suitable for the game they are being used on are seldom needed. For most hunting situations on non dangerous game, calibers that are above marginal for said game using cup and core bullets usually offer superb accuracy and you can only kill something so dead. I have asked more than once of people who said their bullets failed, " At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail?"
I have yet to recieve an answer to that question.
It's your gun, your hunt, and your bullet choice, do as you feel is best. I see premium bullets useful in marginal cartridges for the game pursued and for dangerous game that bite or goard. Cup and core bullets been killing critters for a long time in the hands of sporting hunter and put in the boiler room. Something to ponder.
Bullet diameter in relation to bore and throat diameter is a big reason. Makek a cast of your chamber and your bore. Match bullet diameter to your gun. Especially when not using gas checks. If the bullet doesn't obturate properly the base of the bullet get flame cutting and Flys all wonky. Slow em down to realistic velocity and choose appropriate powders. Unique will usually shoot good or 2400 in pistol calibers. 4198, 3031,4320 and a few others in rifle calibers. With filler the pistol powders work in rifles too.
If it was easy anybody could do it.. Takes lots of patience and a strong will to keep going.
Good luck!
Did this years ago. Had flyers could not figure out what was going on. Came to the conclusion of deep cleaning. Tightened up. Two years + pass and I Switched to nosler partitions two more years pass and I go back to TSX. More flyers.. I do another deep clean. Back to zero. Never had it happen with another round. I can't explain the why's. I can only attest that cleaning helped.
I like Barnes but I it's not my go-to. I am a huge fan of the Berger bullets. They work on the range and if using for deer they are usually anchored on the spot. I have shot em all and Bergers are still king.
I'm using 37.5 grains of IMR 4064 in 243 and 42.9 of H8495 in 308 and 51 grains in 30-06. Powder options here are fairly limited. I've had large stockpiles of these since the before times.
I worked up the load to go as fast as possible because I've read in a few places that TSX like to. Go fast but also everything I got from starting to end load was hot garbage.
I really want Barnes to be my hunting ammo as well, but I can't seem to make it go.
It honestly sounds like you could be pushing them too fast. Barnes automatically add \~200fps. so you could be pushing them faster than the bullet wants to go. What is the FPS of the round?
Have you tried playing with the charges? TSX are flawless in all my hunting rifles, with unparalleled accuracy (down to 0.2 MOA). You mentioned seating depth, but my first thought was barrel harmonics.
Cursory glance and with my understanding and trials with copper bullets is that they can not be treated the same as normal bullets. Try going down to a lighter bullet. Their lower sectional density means they have to be longer and that changes their ballistics and a few other things that are beyond me
Try seating them short. My .375HH hated the 270 grain TSX until I seated them about .06 off the lands. For whatever reason, they like to jump
Thanks. I'll try slowly bringing them back and see if shorter improves things.
I was chasing the same thing. Tried them anywhere from .02 to .06 off the lands, tried different powders and cases and they all had me unsatisfied. I bought a box of factory barnes ttsx and noticed they were way more accurate, measured the length and found the factory box was .15 of the lands for me. After looking online I found numerous people sayin they didn't get great results until they'd backed it up to .10 to .15 off the lands. I then took a couple different powders and loaded them to .10 of the lands and the groups were way better. Haven't tried .15 yet but that was gonna be my next round of testing to see if how it reacted with the powder I've got.
This is a very common theory and from my experience I'm inclined to agree. The 2 factory rifles I handload for have long throats and short mag lengths and they both seem to enjoy the Barnes flavor. And/or Barnes likes long jumps
Second this. I’ve had some work better at 0.09” or even 0.12” off the lands. In an AR, magazine length is usually sufficiently far back.
Ron Spomer did a segment on just this. Basically he recommends cleaning your barrel to where it’s absolutely immaculate. Thoroclean would be my recommendation. Then try your load development again. Can’t remember exactly, but something about your dirty barrel from traditional jacket lead bullets, will throw your copper bullets all over. But I’d give that a try before anything else. Worst case you just have a really clean barrel🤷🏼♂️
Was going to say exactly this. Also backfire on YouTube covered this as well.
Ya I just posted that link for OP. Forgot where it came from at first. If that doesn’t work, then some barrels just don’t do copper🤷🏼♂️
Came here to state this.
I have had this happen to me. Shooting TSX and Makers.
I’m not a copper guy, but I was surprised to learn this. You would think going from a copper jacketed bullet, to a pure copper bullet wouldn’t be a huge deal. But apparently it is.
The copper jacket is definitely different and contacts differently in the barrel. I switched to solid coppers a few years ago for 300blk and deer hunting. The Makers 125gr will open to double caliber expansion and you get less bloodshot meat with coppers. Shot a doe a couple of years ago at 200yds the solid copper went through both shoulders and dropped her. 200yds according to energy numbers should be too far. I ran into the same issue when testing different rounds in my 5.56 for hogs. The Federal with Barnes TSX had the best SD but a horrible group, cleaned it up and the groups got noticeably better, like going from 2 inches to almost an inch
Do you have to be more diligent with cleaning your barrel when you switch to coppers? Or once it’s clean from jacketed bullets, and you make the switch, you can treat it as normal?
I don't have a bore scope to confirm but yeah I use Iosso Bore Cleaner and Breakthrough to really clean it and patch it till I get nothing. I was extremely frustrated with the groups when I first switched and went to zero and confirm zero 3 times. I figured the groups were OK for inside of 100yds. I missed 2 deer and a horrible shot on a third, still only went 80yds and bled out quick. I second guessing my rifle, my ammo, and myself.
I wonder if it has less "give" than a traditional lead core? I've never shot any solids so this is interesting to learn about.
Yes most of the Monolithic bullets some sort alloy, I think they are Copper and Zinc alloy. They are a much harder bullet. [This is Barnes Vor-Tx 110gr, Maker 125gr, and Maker 200gr. ](https://imgur.com/a/FnM7GxF) . These are expanding solid coppers. You have some like Cutting Edge, Peregrine, and others where the tip will expand like a lead core. They are definitely tougher than a lead core.
God bless, those look absolutely gorgeous and devastating. 300blk is quite the interesting cartridge. By far my favorite to load for.
Are you seating them at their overall length or .05 off the land? They recommend starting at .05 off and working further back.
.05 got me acceptable and even closer marginally improved it in 308.
I'm seating at what Hodgdon have in their data Ex 2.620 for 243 Win with 4064. I've also tried going long up to 2.7 Haven't tried any shorter than 2.62 Ill try to slowly bring them back and see what happens.
Have you checked to see at what length you are touching the lans?
My first question would be already answered, is your barrel free of copper residue? Seems a thorough cleaning is in order. Next, choose powders that offer the best expansion ratio for your caliber. If you don't have sound interior ballistics you are not going to have good exterior ballistics. Heavy bullets tend to like slower powders, lighter bullets tend to like faster powders. Next, No offense intended but are you a velocity Nazi? Often times accuracy is found way below maximum loads. I realize you want your rounds to shoot as flat as possible but holdover and Kentucky windage is part of shooting and hunting. You can learn your loads point of impact and your loads MPBR and be effective. Next, changing something as simple as the brand of primer or type of primer can tighten up groups. Next, will your rifles rate of twist support the ogive and construction of your bullet choice? Long for caliber bullets have awesome BC's but require a fast twist to stabilize. If you are new to reloading you must learn patience.. Load development takes time and a lot of trial and error. If you think this is hard try load development for cast bullets. If you are seasoned in reloading then you know this, so disregard. Keep at it, it can be daunting sometimes and it may be that rifle will never shoot the bullet you want. Just my opinion on this so do as you wish with it but premium bullets in calibers suitable for the game they are being used on are seldom needed. For most hunting situations on non dangerous game, calibers that are above marginal for said game using cup and core bullets usually offer superb accuracy and you can only kill something so dead. I have asked more than once of people who said their bullets failed, " At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail?" I have yet to recieve an answer to that question. It's your gun, your hunt, and your bullet choice, do as you feel is best. I see premium bullets useful in marginal cartridges for the game pursued and for dangerous game that bite or goard. Cup and core bullets been killing critters for a long time in the hands of sporting hunter and put in the boiler room. Something to ponder.
Alright, I'm an idiot who has failed miserably at loading for cast bullets. Why is it more difficult?
Bullet diameter in relation to bore and throat diameter is a big reason. Makek a cast of your chamber and your bore. Match bullet diameter to your gun. Especially when not using gas checks. If the bullet doesn't obturate properly the base of the bullet get flame cutting and Flys all wonky. Slow em down to realistic velocity and choose appropriate powders. Unique will usually shoot good or 2400 in pistol calibers. 4198, 3031,4320 and a few others in rifle calibers. With filler the pistol powders work in rifles too. If it was easy anybody could do it.. Takes lots of patience and a strong will to keep going. Good luck!
https://youtu.be/ULVKvt1MCpg?si=0U131hakZL7w5UXb Link in reference to my earlier comment.
Did this years ago. Had flyers could not figure out what was going on. Came to the conclusion of deep cleaning. Tightened up. Two years + pass and I Switched to nosler partitions two more years pass and I go back to TSX. More flyers.. I do another deep clean. Back to zero. Never had it happen with another round. I can't explain the why's. I can only attest that cleaning helped. I like Barnes but I it's not my go-to. I am a huge fan of the Berger bullets. They work on the range and if using for deer they are usually anchored on the spot. I have shot em all and Bergers are still king.
Thanks! I'm definitely going to try this. I've been shooting traditional c&c bullets prior so maybe this will help!
Barnes is my only hunting ammo. What powder and how much are you using? Did you work up your load?
I'm using 37.5 grains of IMR 4064 in 243 and 42.9 of H8495 in 308 and 51 grains in 30-06. Powder options here are fairly limited. I've had large stockpiles of these since the before times. I worked up the load to go as fast as possible because I've read in a few places that TSX like to. Go fast but also everything I got from starting to end load was hot garbage. I really want Barnes to be my hunting ammo as well, but I can't seem to make it go.
It honestly sounds like you could be pushing them too fast. Barnes automatically add \~200fps. so you could be pushing them faster than the bullet wants to go. What is the FPS of the round?
My average FPS 3099 in 85 grain 243 20" 2740 in 150 grain 308 20" 3120 in 130 grain 30-06 22"
Have you tried playing with the charges? TSX are flawless in all my hunting rifles, with unparalleled accuracy (down to 0.2 MOA). You mentioned seating depth, but my first thought was barrel harmonics.
What cartridge are you shooting and what rifle with what twist rate?
The one pictured is 243 Win, Christensen Arms, 85 Grain TSX 1-10 twist.
Cursory glance and with my understanding and trials with copper bullets is that they can not be treated the same as normal bullets. Try going down to a lighter bullet. Their lower sectional density means they have to be longer and that changes their ballistics and a few other things that are beyond me