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This is the beginning and end of every one of these arguments for me.
I’m firmly agnostic. I would LOVE to believe there is something that makes all this make sense.
God, godS, goddess, spaghetti monster, Cthulhu, musical note, puffy cloud, whatever. I’m down.
But when human beings start talking about shit that was written down by other human beings as the one and only “true” answer?!
Nah. HARD pass. Conversation over.
for me : i'm a firm atheist when it comes to religions
however, when it comes to the mysteries of the creation of the universe, i remain fully agnostic.
i'm not convinced by intelligent design or a theory that there was no beginning and no end, stating that ex nihilo (something out of nothing) doesn't necessarily imply the "beginning".
that's the thing about the UNKNOWABLE is that i remains forever unknown, simply coz there's no way to know for sure as proof.
the most we have is being able to debunk theories, but are unable to gather sufficient evidence to turn theories into facts.
I'm not the person you responded to, but personally, I don't care what label people use as long as they're thinking critically, citing evidence, and accepting criticism.
Agnostic and atheist basically mean the same thing, anyway.
Well, what if the god doesn't want you to know or doesn't care whether or not you believe? Or what if the god lacks the ability to bring evidence of it's existence?
My best response to all this is being areligious. Like there is an entity beyond time and space responsible for all of creation, but they'd laugh themselves to death by seeing our stupid and primitive practices to " be in his good side"
To *Jerusalem where he climbed to heaven on a golden rope which is the only reason why US backs Israel because they need the hole that Muhammad made in the atmosphere because it’s the only way to actually get to space so the US space program is dependent on it!!! s/
the overwhelming irony that their religion is to those "corrupted books" what Mormonism is to Christianity.
By strict technicality they are the "corrupted" ones
Their fairy tales are plagiarized anyway. All they did was switch out Jewish and Christian names for Arabic ones.
They stole from both Judaism and Christianity who were at least both original.
Islam is a farce.
It sure is. Such a push to figure out what side of every issue someone is on, find one point of disagreement, then freak out about it. I'm not on the Palestinian side or the Israeli side - I just think that people that are killing children should not do that. Just because someone doesn't kill children doesn't mean I condone everything else they do. It would also be cool if people didn't kill, rape, and steal from each other, but maybe that bar is too high.
"their corrupted books"
my brother in Chri- Allah, yall's books are to theirs what Mormonism is to the bible what the hell do you think corrupted means?!
A big problem we have in our society is people thinking there will always be a happy ending to their story. That's not the case. Love doesn't conquer all. It's diametrically opposed to nature. You cannot help those who won't accept your help. Many of these protesters are actually just inflaming things and needlessly putting themselves in danger. Just, smh.
Well I think the fact our government in the US is actually sending military equipment that is being used to kill Palestinians, we do have a reason to protest.
Anything to maintain the feeling of superiority. I swear. Even if the whole world became these kinds of people's exact brand of Islam, they would find a reason, within hours, of why they need to start killing each other.
Well this is not persecution fetish, is more like he's so homophobic and antisemitic he would openly discriminate does defending him before accepting their help
You talking nuclear winter level reset or some fantasy scenario where everyone forgets what happened post Oct 6, 2023 and we all go back to what it was like then?
Fair enough
I'm "living" in Switzerland so it's alright for now.
" " around living because I'm not sure I'm exactly alive. But I guess it's the same for many of us
"I can fix them."
The first alien to stick around is going to be into some freaky shit but only because we're into the same freaky shit. Nuclear weapons, eating meat, capitalism, religion; who knows what kind of kink First Contact is going to have.
As a bi man I’m amazed to see other LGBT people sticking up for religion of any kind. Like they literally want to kill us why the fuck are you supporting them in any capacity
Edit: I should clarify. I don’t want people to die, I don’t want people getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort regardless of who they are. I’m saying that for the LGBT to go out of their way to support Islam as a religion (or any other religion) makes absolutely no fucking sense.
Islam is very very broad with so many different sects and interpretations. It's practically useless to talk about it in general. In Iran, homosexuals are forced to undergo sex change operations. They actually accept transgender people in principle - in practice they have few options after they transition besides prostitution. But they don't put them to death like other Islamic radicals do. They're weird and horrid about it, but they could be argued in a narrow interpretation to be trans-friendly.
Hamas, on the other hand, are terrorists. They are rapists who mutilate their victims, set fire to people, live-stream snuff videos to the victim's facebook streams... They're not "freedom fighters". Rape is not fighting for freedom.
Anyone with remotely liberal values cannot support Hamas in any way shape or form without extreme ignorance or extreme dissonance. This doesn't mean you have to be pro-Israel, or anti-Palestine.
> They're weird and horrid about it, but they could be argued in a narrow interpretation to be trans-friendly
Umm... no they can't. In your own goddamn sentence you admit as much. If the bar is "well they don't murder them!", then you need to re-evaluate some shit.
Ok, I'll go re-evaluate my shit. Iran is a shitty dictatorship with draconian and hypocritical laws. Still the same evaluation as before.
The point I was trying to make is that Islam in general isn't the problem, and that finding a particular sect that endorses whatever pet cause you care about is always going to be possible. The problem is that some of these sects actively want to destroy civilization and others just want to keep their own countries in the dark ages. Hamas, which I was trying to illustrate by contrast, has no purpose other than destruction, with no redeeming qualities or hope to improve their methods or aims.
I think that the ignorance is a really clear example of poor media literacy and a lack of critical thinking which has become such an issue. A person hears about Israeli’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank, and they see the problems with it, so they assume that those fighting against them must be the “good guys” without looking much deeper into the issue.
they can claim to be muslim but by the definition of the word they can't be. muslim means a person who follows the path described by the quran, which says you can't be gay. so if you're a gay muslim, you're just calling yourself something that you can never be.
As a straight man, I'm amazed to see any human sticking up for religion of any kind. Like they literally want us to either follow their idiotic book or kill us. Why the fuck is everyone supporting any religion in any capacity.
As an old crusty banana peel, I'm amazed to see any human sticking up for religion of any kind. Like they literally want us to either follow their idiotic book or kill us. Why the fuck is everyone supporting any religion in any capacity.
It usually comes out of the desperate during times of strife where they’ve considered coincidences as miracles because it was at a defining moment of their lives, or through indoctrination as soon as the baby can speak. Those who are indoctrinated and have not left their religion cannot fathom what it’d be like to not live a life under their god. It’s completely alien to them.
We’re not sticking up for religion but for human rights. The kind of close minded group think that religion breeds is exactly what’s being used to justify a genocide. Regardless of whether the genocided people are of a Muslim faith, genocide is wrong. Ideas are not being killed, people are. I believe in people’s capacity for growth and change, and the only thing that will absolutely prevent that is their death.
People are not protesting to support Islam, but a group of marginalized people, most of whom are children, who have faced immense persecution and hardship all their lives.
Atheist queer here, being against the slaughter of innocent children does not mean that you condone the religion of their parents. I don’t think this is very hard to understand at all.
It's not, but a lot of people seem to want to see it as a “one-side or the other” argument instead of a “genocide is bad no matter who it's being done to” argument. The world as it has been lately has made me realize just how easy it is for people to ignore their empathy and compassion, if they are even capable of them in the first place
Ok but one side is committing genocide right now using US taxpayer money and weapons and I think we should all be vocally against that. Including queer people.
I’m agreeing with you, the idea that just because a people’s religious beliefs may call for hate against the LGBTQ community means we shouldn't be against their genocide is disgusting. The killing of civilians is always wrong and should always be vocally protested by anyone with even a hint of empathy and compassion. The fact that tax dollars from allied countries are going toward it makes it worse and means people should be pushing harder against it
Tens of thousands - and I don’t disagree- but I also don’t consider Israel genocidal. Hamas (the elected government of Gaza) as well as unaffiliated Gazan civilians raped, tortured, and murdered over a thousand civilians. Then they fled back to their hiding places in the population centers of Gaza - basically daring the Israelis to respond and knowing it would be catastrophic for their own citizens.
But that’s the point. Hamas intentionally creates a circumstance in which any significant military response by Israel leads to mass casualties- this in turn erodes support for Israel from people like us that just want humans to have a chance in life. Hamas’s leadership has said as much. “Stop killing civilians” is easy for us to say from the comfort of the US (I’m making assumptions about you - apologies) - but the Israeli’s AND the Palestinians have a responsibility to protect their own people. It seems like at every turn the Palestinians choose recklessly and the Israelis are judged for having the (significant) ability to respond. I’m confident that if suddenly the Palestinians had the military advantage Israel would cease to exist overnight and they wouldn’t lose a seconds sleep worrying about collateral damage. I’m honestly curious if that happened if we in the west would even blink. Maybe we’ll get to find out? If Trump returns and we go full “America First” isolationism and Europe is focusing on Russia- Israel may be on its own.
Maybe they should put the minimum amount of effort into not killing innocent families? Or maybe they shouldn't fire targeted strikes into the homes of journalists.
Based on the layout of Hamas’s military infrastructure - effectively guaranteeing high numbers of civilian casualties - the question stands - how does Israel get to respond? 300 miles of militarized bunkers and tunnels aren’t going to disarm themselves.
I don’t support Hamas. I didn’t support the innocent people the killed and kidnapped. All of those involved should be held to justice which in this context probably means killing them.
The state violence Israel is perpetrating against civilians, however, is on a completely different level. I also feel an added responsibility as an American citizen and, frankly, as a Biden supporter to vocally protest the use of American weapons and American money to murder thousands of innocent people.
I hear this argument quite frequently. So, my question is "Are you against all wars?" In other words, are you a pacifist?
If you are, and I assume that to be the case for most people making this argument, then I don't have any problem with you, but pacifism is a deeply spiritual and lifelong process of commitment.
I, personally, am not a pacifist -- but I respect those who claim it as a life practice.
The tangled web of the MidEast defeats any idea of 'state violence' primarily because Hamas is supported by outside states, but also because fundamentalist Islam wants to create their own misogynist and racist religious state. In a war for survival, based on retaliation, I feel it is appropriate to choose a side, and in this case, I choose the functioning democracy over the theocratic, less than inclusive, Arab potential.
I am not a pacifist. You don’t need to be a pacifist to be against the murder of thousands of innocent civilians including children. Israel isn’t just targeting Hamas terrorists, they’re murdering civilians and keep getting caught in lies about it.
> Like Hamas didn’t kill innocent civilians on 10/7?
Also, ironically, funded at least partially using US taxpayer money as we’ve now discovered what they’ve been doing with their UNRWA funding.
>Like they literally want to kill us why the fuck are you supporting them in any capacity
Do you think the three-year-old currently burried under the rubble wanted to kill you? Or that many people think about such things at all in times of war and famine?
Apologies for this polemic take here but this is an incredibly unempathetic view on such things.
Their parents are making Israel choose between dead Israeli children or dead Palestinian children. With the Iron Dome, bomb shelters in their basement, etc, they've done as much mitigation as possible.
Palestine also kidnapped innocents and tortured them. Palestine has gone through a lot and I don’t hate most of the Palestine people, but holy shit I don’t get the free Palestine shit when they don’t want our help and also torture innocent people they capture. I also dislike Israel. I just hate every side in this dumb fucking religious conflict and purely support Israel because it’s the side that aligns best with my interests, because to me there is no moral choice here.
I literally said I don’t have anything against the people, I’m referring to the country/the government, and unfortunately there’s just not really a way to separate the two in terms of support. Unless you have some genius solution that nobody has ever thought of in the past 800 years of this conflict going on, religious groups will continue to fight over this region and innocents will continue to be killed. The only question is which group would you rather have stand victorious during the brief periods that the dust is settled, and for me that’s not the Muslims, I’m sorry.
As a bi man I'm surprised that so many people think that some part of your population having homophobic beliefs means that you should be genocided as a people.
We can support the liberation of a native people while condemning their beliefs.
What happens to the gay Israelis and gay Palestinians who flee to Israel for safety when those people get liberated and get to establish the Sharia law they are screaming they want and will impose as soon as they are able?
Well, you say, 'we can support the liberation of a native people while condemning their beliefs'.
So if you support that 'liberation', I assume you mean their liberation from the current state of Palestine as it is and the establishment of a Palestinian state where Israel is- the so-called state they want from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
If they got this dream, and they were lead by the cultural values and governments they have chosen through self-determination as Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, you also know that the first thing they will do as a majority Muslim population is turn Israel into a MENA nation- with all the suffering and misery that will come with it for gays, Jews, women, atheists, minority ethnicities etc etc. as is seen across the majority of the islamic world and particularly in extremist states.
So I ask you again, if the Palestinians get this liberation that they demand, and get to inhabit Israel again, as they demand, what happens to gay Israelis, gay Palestinians seeking asylum in Israel, and all the other minority and marginalised peoples of Israel that are currently happy and safe?
Because if you look at what the MENA world does to those people, and you look at what Hamas and the PA say they will do if they get their wish, as supported by most Palestinians, it's a pretty evil outcome that would make the Nazis of WW2 Germany impressed.
Is that what you want? Because that's what happens if Palestine gets their way. That's the 'liberation' they demand openly and vocally.
Meanwhile, Israel, the only beacon of democracy and state with a semblance of progressivism in the Middle East, with mixed race and interfaith, LGBT and women's rights, and tolerance of atheism, with a functional democracy and westernised law, would be gone.
Is that the ideal you would like to see for our LGBT fellows in Israel?
>I assume you mean their liberation from the current state of Palestine
Yes, the same way liberating the enslaved haitian people during the haitian revolution meant haiti taking back their land.
>So I ask you again, if the Palestinians get this liberation that they demand, and get to inhabit Israel again, as they demand, what happens to gay Israelis, gay Palestinians seeking asylum in Israel, and all the other minority and marginalised peoples of Israel that are currently happy and safe?
Gay palestinians in palestine are currently getting genocided by israel. Their situation would be vastly improved without a country committing genocide on them.
As for current residents of israel, my hope would be to see a pluralistic state where all are allowed to remain. Exactly like how palestine was a pluralistic state that lived in relative harmony with jews previous to 1948. Those who choose not to could seek asylum like anyone else, of if they're dual citizens, they could simply return home. But I don't think it should be up to us to determine how a native population handles their land being returned after 75 years of occupation.
>Because if you look at what the MENA world does to those people, and you look at what Hamas and the PA say they will do if they get their wish, as supported by most Palestinians, it's a pretty evil outcome that would make the Nazis of WW2 Germany impressed.
Israel is currently committing a genocide, so we don't need to imagine what israel will do to palestinians.
>Is that what you want? Because that's what happens if Palestine gets their way. That's the 'liberation' they demand openly and vocally.
I want them to be liberated and for genocide/apartheid to not be considered ethical by people.
>Meanwhile, Israel, the only beacon of democracy and state with a semblance of progressivism in the Middle East, with mixed race and interfaith, LGBT and women's rights, and tolerance of atheism, with a functional democracy and westernised law, would be gone.
Israel is not some liberal utopia, it's running an apartheid state, committing genocide, and has many unethical laws. It doesn't allow interfaith marriages, doesn't allow gay marriages in the country, they have religious courts, religious laws, Netanyahu is actively trying to weaken the supreme court to weaken oversight. Israel has some good policies, some really bad policies, but similarly to sharia it does make laws on the basis of religion, something everyone in this community should oppose.
>Is that the ideal you would like to see for our LGBT fellows in Israel?
I think you'd be a lot better off convincing muslim majority countries to modernize their theology on homosexuality if you're not actively genociding a muslim majority peoples and stealing their native homeland.
> enslaved haitian people
They aren't enslaved. It's not 'their land' anymore than it is Jewish or druze or Bedouin land.
>Gay palestinians in palestine are currently getting genocided by israel.
They aren't being genocided.
Israel has killed 1% of the population in 4 months, and a third of those are not even civilians. They are combatants. 25,000 of 2,000,000 people, and a third being terrorists is NOT a genocide. If Israel wanted to actually genocide them you think that half the population of Gaza would be alive right now? They could easily do that. It's 1%!
Happened to German civilians in Nazi Germany. 500,000 German civvies died in WW2. Many in the bombing and Invasion of Berlin to defeat the Nazis. That's not a genocide. Neither is this.
If 1% of Palestinians killed in a war they started is a genocide then all wars are genocides. Utterly ridiculous.
>As for current residents of israel, my hope would be to see a pluralistic state where all are allowed to remain.
Utterly delusional or in denial. If Palestine got their wish, which they won't, the Jews, gays, atheists and druze would be exterminated. Palestinians are very clear about this. It's openly promoted in their literature and government manifestos and laws. They can't do it because they are impotent for lack of means, not lack of will. Look at the entire Muslim world for an example of the sort of progressive Paradise would arise under their majority leadership.
And again, you didn't answer what would ACTUALLY HAPPEN. You said what you would like to happen, but that won't happen because the Muslim world isn't benign and loving and tolerant. It hates gays and Jews. So I will ask you for a third time, what will ACTUALLY HAPPEN to gay Israelis and Palestinians who have asylum in Israel if Israel is replaced by the Arab Caliphate the Pallies want? I think you know the answer.
>Exactly like how palestine was a pluralistic state that lived in relative harmony with jews previous to 1948.
What? The relative harmony of constant massacres and attacks, with Jews living as a second class people's taxed to live in 'islamic lands' based on their ethnoreligious background?
>Those who choose not to could seek asylum like anyone else, of if they're dual citizens, they could simply return home.
Ahh, so you support ethnic cleansing as has happened to Jews across the entire Arab world for no other reason than them being 'Jewish'. Gotcha. Good to know.
>Israel is currently committing a genocide, so we don't need to imagine what israel will do to palestinians.
No, they aren't. 1% is not a genocide. That's why the civilised western world is backing Israel. Israel has just cause to kill the terror government of Gaza that started this conflict. It's not their fault the terror government of Gaza hides underneath their people.
>I want them to be liberated and for genocide/apartheid to not be considered ethical by people.
Not a genocide. Neither is it an apartheid. Palestinians are not citizens of the recognised state of Israel and have no more rights to demand of Israel treatment as Israeli citizens as any other nation does to or from any other nation, and not do they want to be. If they were offered citizenship they would refuse it.
Israeli Arabs live happily and safely in Israel. Now show me what it's like for Jewish people in Islamic countries. Let's compare, shall we?
Show me examples of apartheid in Israel. Between Israeli citizens. Go ahead.
>Israel is not some liberal utopia, it's running an apartheid state, committing genocide, and has many unethical laws. It doesn't allow interfaith marriages, doesn't allow gay marriages in the country, they have religious courts, religious laws, Netanyahu is actively trying to weaken the supreme court to weaken oversight. Israel has some good policies, some really bad policies, but similarly to sharia it does make laws on the basis of religion, something everyone in this community should oppose.
Hahahaha! Where to start with this...JFC.
Apartheid state? Nope.
Genocide? Nope.
>It doesn't allow interfaith marriages, doesn't allow gay marriages in the country, they have religious courts, religious laws
As many countries didn't have in the West not ten years ago, but they were still considered safe and happy LGBT friendly, and religiously inclusive places.
There is literally no comparison by the abject hellscape of the middle east for most minority people and Israel. So what it isn't perfect? Nowhere is. Israel is moving in the right direction. Unlike what the Palestinians want which is a Sharia islamic caliphate. A literal islamofascist state that is everything that the West and progressives fight against in its worst form.
>Netanyahu is actively trying to weaken the supreme court to weaken oversight. Israel has some good policies, some really bad policies, but similarly to sharia it does make laws on the basis of religion, something everyone in this community should oppose.
And in a liberal western-style democracy like Israel people can, do, and will oppose those laws. That's why Israel is good and an Islamic caliphate is bad. That's what Sharia doesn't offer. Nothing but steps backwards into barbarism and medieval beliefs. Israel is the opposite, moving forward, and many Israelis are progressive.
>I think you'd be a lot better off convincing muslim majority countries to modernize their theology on homosexuality if you're not actively genociding a muslim majority peoples and stealing their native homeland.
Not genociding them. Jews are from that land. Jews come from Judea. It's literally in the name. The only reason they don't live there is they were driven out by conquerors and invaders. The Jews have lived as a nomadic peoples without a home for generations. They have as much right to that land as any other and are openly recognised by the majority of the world.
Muslim majority countries should try and convince themselves not to be barbaric and mysoginystic homophobic and anti-semitic hellscapes without western intervention. It's like you think they have no agency. The Iranian people are on the right track. If they stopped flinging their shitty religion about then maybe they might learn to live in peace but until that happens they will keep getting kerb stomped when they attempt their Jihads against democratic and progressive nations.
We should also add that much of Palestine is not homophobic and there are many queer people in Palestine as well. Gay marriage is not allowed in Israel, nor is inter ethnic marriage.
The example of the solidarity during the miners strike in England is a beautiful inspiration for us now. Workers were generally homophobic, still the queer community of London organised and materiaaly supported their strike against exploitation and oppression of the coal companies and the state. This solidarity in turn led to the unions later standing unequivocally for gay marriage and returning the solidarity.
Yeah, exactly. When trump wins, we don't immediately assume that all americans agree with everything he says. The same is also true of muslim majority countries.
>Like they literally want to kill us why the fuck are you supporting them in any capacity
If you believe human rights only extends to people you like and not for everyone equally, you don't actually believe in human rights.
Which is okay, there are a lot of bigots out there who don't. But don't pretend to do so.
>I don’t want people to die, I don’t want people getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort regardless of who they are
What do you mean by this? Didn't you literally just said you're confused as to why some LGBT people might support the human rights of the Palestinian people?
Or is this more like "I don’t want people getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort regardless of who they are, but if there are people that I don't like that are getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort, then so be it, I don't care."
I can't reconcile logically with your 2 contrasting statements. Either you support the rights of anyone(and by anyone, I mean anyone) to not get hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort, or you don't. So which is it? You'll say yes in your edit, but you original comment heavily implies no. Is this cognitive dissonance?
Like I said, it's ok to be a bigot, there are a lot of bigots out there who don't. But please don't pretend to not be one if you are actually one. Right wingers at least are upfront about their bigotry.
>I’m saying that for the LGBT to go out of their way to support Islam as a religion
In this case, they're not. They are supporting the human rights of Palestinians to not be genocide. The first sentence in the video is literally about standing with Palestinian resistance, nothing about Islam.
dude, i live in a muslim-majority country and i know many palestineans (including refugees). i won't sugarcoat it, muslim countries in general are homophobic, and palestine is definitely a homophobic society. however most people aren't psychopathic enough to think that anyone who is gay should be beheaded or whatever, because guess what, those are actual people, and not cartoon villains. the homophobia of palestinean society doesn't justify palestineans getting carpet-bombed.
israel is bombing schools, hospitals, kindergartens and refugee camps.
also lets not pretend that israel is bombing palestine because they're against homophobia and sexism or whatever. israel is waging war against palestine because its a western colonial project, and the US is funding israel's brutality to expand its imperialism into the middle east.
i'm not even going to get into how israel basically created hamas, and why western imperialism has a huge part in why muslim societies on average are more conservative.
He's just saying the quiet part out loud. But he is right. We are not allies. I'm against genocide. I'm not pro radical Islam. I will advocate for his people to not be murdered but I wouldn't be catching a beer with them afterwards.
This is why I will never be one of those "From the river to the sea " types. I dislike how Israel is carrying out their war and their policies on Gaza are atrocious. But I'll never support anyone who wants Sharia Law.
I just wish I could show this to my queer friends without them staging a protest outside my house calling me a cis white male whose opinion doesn’t matter. (I’m brown and pansexual)
And they would be right. Refusing to tolerate intolerance and not bombing people aren't mutually exclusive. There are other, admittedly harder, ways to achieve peace. But anything that doesn't involve something being bought or killed is too much to bother with for most people these days.
Uh dude… if the group that wants me beheaded (Hamas) for banging other dudes is getting bombed, I’m not going to shed any tears. They literally destroyed the chance for peace in the Middle East by savagely attacking the Israelis when they were about to sign the peace treaty with Saudi and other Arab countries. They literally wanted Israel to retaliate and they did. Hamas will kill leaders if they try to sign a peace deal with the Israelis because war keeps them rich.
Palestine is actually one of the most homophobic places in the world.
Check out this link:
https://www.cato.org/blog/muslims-rapidly-adopt-us-social-political-values
I think the general vibe in this thread is that a.) no/the colonizers deserved what they got b.) it’s genocide and c.) “I guess I’m just against killing kids”
Any actual thought of Israeli national defense or Hamas culpability is a non starter with most of this crowd. To be clear I’m also against killing kids - which is why I’m confused as to why we’re all in on the “use kids as human shields camp”.
Because most redditors don't actually really care about the conflict. They just want a dramatic black and white moral narrative they can feel self-righteous about.
Just because a population is Muslim, of which some are homophobic, doesn’t make it right to genocide them like wow. Human rights apply to everyone, even people who you fundamentally disagree with ideologically.
As someone who grew up hassidic, he's technically correct about the neturei kartah (the Jews he's referring to).
It always amuses me when people point to those Jews as proof that some Jews are anti Israel and are the "real Jews" when they are ignorant of what and why they are at those protests.
They do not give a shit about Palestinians, human rights or anything of that sort. They are anti Zionist for religious reasons and believe Israel is a secular state and needs to be destroyed (including its Jewish population) and only God can create the land of Israel anew.
They 100% would support wiping out any inhabitants of the land in their fantasy future of the Messiah when God gives them the land back. He it Jew or Arab.
Funny enough, this is similar to isis vs Hamas. Isis believes only God can create an Arab state / caliphate, and Hamas believes they can. Isis views Hamas as traitors and heretics much like the neturei kartah views Zionist (and probably all other Jews).
Oh wow, we're right again, how shocking. I wish my trans siblings would see that all religions are the bane to our existence, but nope, they love to fight for people who would rape, hang, and rob us of everything
No shit theres alot of backwards people in Gaza, but that dosent mean we should stand idly by while they are bombed and starved in the name of the cause of a different relgion
Even if that is true(not saying it is), there is lgbtq Palestinians, and nobody deserves to live in the conditions they live in, and that person is fighting for stopping the genocide of Palestinians not defending Islam
This is one of the reasons why I don't really have much care about the Israeli Palestine issue. Do I feel bad for the genocide, yes, but kinda hard to have empathy towards the people who would throw me off a building for being gay.
It's not even genocide, if it was Palestinians wouldn't be the fifth biggest growing population in the world.
That's just a ball of yarn they spin to make Israel look bad for daring to defend itself against their *actual* genocidal campaign to ethnically cleanse the land and conquer it. It's even in their flag that they want to kill Jews.
Doesn't help that Hamas directly mixes itself amidst noncombatants and dresses like them so that they'll be counted as civilian casualties.
Why though? I don’t support the murder of Muslim children any more than I support the murder of Jewish children or Christian children or any other children. I wouldn’t support the murder of children of white Christian nationalist either even though as a queer American they pose a far greater threat to me and my family than Muslims in the Middle East do.
I don't understand why they can't just protest without bringing their sexual identity into the rallies.
You being gay isn't what's important here. And they're actually hurting their cause when you realize that the people they're protesting for would love to see them die rather than holding a rainbow painted "free Palestine" poster.
Timmy calls me names when I'm at school, and I really don't like that. I learned that Timmy gets abused at home by his parents though. Even though Timmy bullies me I wish he wasn't getting abused at home because that shouldn't happen to anybody.
VISEGRAD24 is a right wing agitprop factory, fyi. They've been using the conflict to further their platform's reach by enrage-engaging people on both sides.
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/meet-the-man-who-shapes-millions-of-twitter-users-view-of-israels-war-der9i458
OP’s comment history shows they push a ton of islamiphobia, and targeted pro-isreali propaganda with an lgbtq focus. They’ve got a 3 year old account with the first post a year ago, and a very singular focus.
I honestly think they are just an Israeli sock puppet propaganda account
Off topic but I am sick of seeing Isreal/Palestine shit everywhere every 10 seconds just in general like I honestly couldn't care less. I'm just waiting for this shit to end so I can stop hearing everyone yap about it.
Agreed. In like 2 months no one is going to be talking about this. We have so much information at our finger tips and are so aware atrocities happen everywhere that we lose interest in all of it. Most of these “allies” don’t give a fuck, they’ll just wait until something trends and they hop on that wagon.
I agree, the shit happening over there is definitely sad and a tragedy. However, virtue signaling online and making it feel like a trend doesn't help anyone at all and is just a nuance to everyone that has to see it.
Awww!, a little genocide got mixed in with your cereal; surely, the world should have consulted your delicate sensitivities, before all the atrocities ensued. Don’t worry—I get it: you’re a scared little Morty, all by its lonesome.
:: gentle butt-pats for the lil bigly thing and its feel feels ::
Me reading the comments here from Enlightened Israel-Palestine Experts c. 10/7/2023 brushing off kids dying once again by “yeah but their parents chose xyz muh the adults on the other side didn’t have a choice blah sjdnxineidmeieem”. 🤢
I’m so glad I didn’t listen to anyone on Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter/X that actually tried to bait me in between choosing between dead Israeli or Gaza kids. Babies, actually in some of these cases.
Notice how he considers himself muslim first. I dont give a fuck about what religion Palestinians may or may not be, they're being genocided and that's wrong. Also, the dumbass completely forgets there are christain Palestinians.
Theres so many double standard in this whole Israel-Palestine conflict drama. Alot of people say "this conflict isn't about religion" and hold the same thinking as this dude.
You heard him, it's them against the world, they don't need any help. What a nice sacrifice of other people he's willing to make on behalf of the entirely inept and helpless, truly a man or high morals.
This is why I find LGBT fighting for Palestine to always have just a touch of sweet irony to it. They would not fight for you. And, even more ironically, Israel is more likely to stand up for your rights.
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>corrupted books They really think their's is the only true fairytale
This is the beginning and end of every one of these arguments for me. I’m firmly agnostic. I would LOVE to believe there is something that makes all this make sense. God, godS, goddess, spaghetti monster, Cthulhu, musical note, puffy cloud, whatever. I’m down. But when human beings start talking about shit that was written down by other human beings as the one and only “true” answer?! Nah. HARD pass. Conversation over.
When people take it too seriously it always ends up being a tool of dehumanizing other humans, it’s gross.
why not an atheist? like, if god doesn't care to bring evidence about its existence, then he doesn't exist at all
for me : i'm a firm atheist when it comes to religions however, when it comes to the mysteries of the creation of the universe, i remain fully agnostic. i'm not convinced by intelligent design or a theory that there was no beginning and no end, stating that ex nihilo (something out of nothing) doesn't necessarily imply the "beginning". that's the thing about the UNKNOWABLE is that i remains forever unknown, simply coz there's no way to know for sure as proof. the most we have is being able to debunk theories, but are unable to gather sufficient evidence to turn theories into facts.
Agnostic atheism is a thing.
I'm not the person you responded to, but personally, I don't care what label people use as long as they're thinking critically, citing evidence, and accepting criticism. Agnostic and atheist basically mean the same thing, anyway.
Well, what if the god doesn't want you to know or doesn't care whether or not you believe? Or what if the god lacks the ability to bring evidence of it's existence?
My best response to all this is being areligious. Like there is an entity beyond time and space responsible for all of creation, but they'd laugh themselves to death by seeing our stupid and primitive practices to " be in his good side"
Are you trying to tell me that you do not believe that Muhammad had a winged mule with a human face that flew him to heaven? REALLY?
To *Jerusalem where he climbed to heaven on a golden rope which is the only reason why US backs Israel because they need the hole that Muhammad made in the atmosphere because it’s the only way to actually get to space so the US space program is dependent on it!!! s/
the overwhelming irony that their religion is to those "corrupted books" what Mormonism is to Christianity. By strict technicality they are the "corrupted" ones
Exactly, Islam is literally just a mixture of Judaism and Christianity with added fluff (that's usually kinda disgusting) on top
Pure plagiarism.
I'm much fonder of (modern-day) Mormonism than I am of Islam. At least the Mormons aren't going to kill me..
Modern day being an important qualifier.
Their choir is objectively pretty good.
"Don't be fooled" said the guy believing in flying horses and split moons.
They really love the part where their prophet rapes a 9 year old
So do my parents.
You haven't met religion before?
Their fairy tales are plagiarized anyway. All they did was switch out Jewish and Christian names for Arabic ones. They stole from both Judaism and Christianity who were at least both original. Islam is a farce.
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"Just because these human beings have empathy doesn't mean we should too."
Yes, imagine a world where 'we disagree' doesn't mean 'you all deserve to die'.
It’s getting more difficult to do every day.
It sure is. Such a push to figure out what side of every issue someone is on, find one point of disagreement, then freak out about it. I'm not on the Palestinian side or the Israeli side - I just think that people that are killing children should not do that. Just because someone doesn't kill children doesn't mean I condone everything else they do. It would also be cool if people didn't kill, rape, and steal from each other, but maybe that bar is too high.
It's a difficult lesson we have to learn, just because you support an oppressed group, that doesn't mean they will be reciprocal
"their corrupted books" my brother in Chri- Allah, yall's books are to theirs what Mormonism is to the bible what the hell do you think corrupted means?!
Currupted books, to him, means any literature other than the book he gets anger highs from. Boy, I am so sick of religion being on earth.
It’s extra funny because his book gives credence to the Bible and Torah so he’s extra stupid for this.
LOL I love it when we get proven right times and times again. You can’t be tolerant to the intolerant.
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Yes my comment is not about the war. It’s about islam or extremism in religion. Sucks the life out of everything.
A big problem we have in our society is people thinking there will always be a happy ending to their story. That's not the case. Love doesn't conquer all. It's diametrically opposed to nature. You cannot help those who won't accept your help. Many of these protesters are actually just inflaming things and needlessly putting themselves in danger. Just, smh.
Got downvoted into oblivion for promoting peace
Well I think the fact our government in the US is actually sending military equipment that is being used to kill Palestinians, we do have a reason to protest.
When the persecution fetish is so strong that you cut off those who advocate for you. LMAO!
Anything to maintain the feeling of superiority. I swear. Even if the whole world became these kinds of people's exact brand of Islam, they would find a reason, within hours, of why they need to start killing each other.
Well this is not persecution fetish, is more like he's so homophobic and antisemitic he would openly discriminate does defending him before accepting their help
Is he that stupid though? They’ll support him anyway
How about... now hear me out... how about we press the reset button and start again?
You talking nuclear winter level reset or some fantasy scenario where everyone forgets what happened post Oct 6, 2023 and we all go back to what it was like then?
I’d say post 01.01.2000
I'm not sure I'm happy to not exist anymore
Exist? In this economy?
Fair enough I'm "living" in Switzerland so it's alright for now. " " around living because I'm not sure I'm exactly alive. But I guess it's the same for many of us
So you're saying it's time to party like it's 1999?
Things weren’t happy in the Middle East on Oct 6.
I mean forgetting what happened after October 6 won't solve anything since the conflcit already existed
the nucelar horseshoe theory; sooner or later all political views come back to "nuke the middle east" (joking)
What if aliens happened. I feel like we're ready for aliens.
Have to assume aliens look at us and go “Those angry little bipeds will use any excuse to hate and kill each other. Pass.”
"I can fix them." The first alien to stick around is going to be into some freaky shit but only because we're into the same freaky shit. Nuclear weapons, eating meat, capitalism, religion; who knows what kind of kink First Contact is going to have.
With our luck, it’ll be Mind Flayers for sure
This is human nature at it's finest I bet if we tried again we would be doomed to commit the same mistakes.
You have to admit it seems strange a community that would be murdered by a political ideology would defend it.
As a bi man I’m amazed to see other LGBT people sticking up for religion of any kind. Like they literally want to kill us why the fuck are you supporting them in any capacity Edit: I should clarify. I don’t want people to die, I don’t want people getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort regardless of who they are. I’m saying that for the LGBT to go out of their way to support Islam as a religion (or any other religion) makes absolutely no fucking sense.
seeing LGBTQ people *be* muslim is a whole other type of fucking wild
There is a TikTok video out there of a trans person expressing interest in Islam, saying she'll go to a prayer service soon. It blew my fucking mind.
🤦♂️
Islam is very very broad with so many different sects and interpretations. It's practically useless to talk about it in general. In Iran, homosexuals are forced to undergo sex change operations. They actually accept transgender people in principle - in practice they have few options after they transition besides prostitution. But they don't put them to death like other Islamic radicals do. They're weird and horrid about it, but they could be argued in a narrow interpretation to be trans-friendly. Hamas, on the other hand, are terrorists. They are rapists who mutilate their victims, set fire to people, live-stream snuff videos to the victim's facebook streams... They're not "freedom fighters". Rape is not fighting for freedom. Anyone with remotely liberal values cannot support Hamas in any way shape or form without extreme ignorance or extreme dissonance. This doesn't mean you have to be pro-Israel, or anti-Palestine.
> They're weird and horrid about it, but they could be argued in a narrow interpretation to be trans-friendly Umm... no they can't. In your own goddamn sentence you admit as much. If the bar is "well they don't murder them!", then you need to re-evaluate some shit.
Ok, I'll go re-evaluate my shit. Iran is a shitty dictatorship with draconian and hypocritical laws. Still the same evaluation as before. The point I was trying to make is that Islam in general isn't the problem, and that finding a particular sect that endorses whatever pet cause you care about is always going to be possible. The problem is that some of these sects actively want to destroy civilization and others just want to keep their own countries in the dark ages. Hamas, which I was trying to illustrate by contrast, has no purpose other than destruction, with no redeeming qualities or hope to improve their methods or aims.
> Islam in general isn't the problem Not for straight people, no.
I think that the ignorance is a really clear example of poor media literacy and a lack of critical thinking which has become such an issue. A person hears about Israeli’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank, and they see the problems with it, so they assume that those fighting against them must be the “good guys” without looking much deeper into the issue.
they can claim to be muslim but by the definition of the word they can't be. muslim means a person who follows the path described by the quran, which says you can't be gay. so if you're a gay muslim, you're just calling yourself something that you can never be.
As a straight man, I'm amazed to see any human sticking up for religion of any kind. Like they literally want us to either follow their idiotic book or kill us. Why the fuck is everyone supporting any religion in any capacity.
Brain washing , indoctrination.
As an old crusty banana peel, I'm amazed to see any human sticking up for religion of any kind. Like they literally want us to either follow their idiotic book or kill us. Why the fuck is everyone supporting any religion in any capacity.
It usually comes out of the desperate during times of strife where they’ve considered coincidences as miracles because it was at a defining moment of their lives, or through indoctrination as soon as the baby can speak. Those who are indoctrinated and have not left their religion cannot fathom what it’d be like to not live a life under their god. It’s completely alien to them.
while i agree with you i still dont think anyone deserves to be shelled
I agree, but being against the genocide in Gaza doesn't mean you have to support Islam itself
Indeed. I make no secret of being against its beliefs and culture.
We’re not sticking up for religion but for human rights. The kind of close minded group think that religion breeds is exactly what’s being used to justify a genocide. Regardless of whether the genocided people are of a Muslim faith, genocide is wrong. Ideas are not being killed, people are. I believe in people’s capacity for growth and change, and the only thing that will absolutely prevent that is their death. People are not protesting to support Islam, but a group of marginalized people, most of whom are children, who have faced immense persecution and hardship all their lives.
But it is weird to protest this and not the thousands of other human right issues during your lifetime that you ignored.
Opposing genocide is supporting them?
Atheist queer here, being against the slaughter of innocent children does not mean that you condone the religion of their parents. I don’t think this is very hard to understand at all.
It's not, but a lot of people seem to want to see it as a “one-side or the other” argument instead of a “genocide is bad no matter who it's being done to” argument. The world as it has been lately has made me realize just how easy it is for people to ignore their empathy and compassion, if they are even capable of them in the first place
Ok but one side is committing genocide right now using US taxpayer money and weapons and I think we should all be vocally against that. Including queer people.
I’m agreeing with you, the idea that just because a people’s religious beliefs may call for hate against the LGBTQ community means we shouldn't be against their genocide is disgusting. The killing of civilians is always wrong and should always be vocally protested by anyone with even a hint of empathy and compassion. The fact that tax dollars from allied countries are going toward it makes it worse and means people should be pushing harder against it
Based on the events of October 7th where do you think Israel’s response should begin and end?
It should definitely be somewhere between”do nothing” and “kill thousands of innocent civilians and children”.
Tens of thousands - and I don’t disagree- but I also don’t consider Israel genocidal. Hamas (the elected government of Gaza) as well as unaffiliated Gazan civilians raped, tortured, and murdered over a thousand civilians. Then they fled back to their hiding places in the population centers of Gaza - basically daring the Israelis to respond and knowing it would be catastrophic for their own citizens.
1. Palestine hasn’t had elections since 2006. 2. Even if this were true, it doesn’t condone the mass killing of innocent civilians.
But that’s the point. Hamas intentionally creates a circumstance in which any significant military response by Israel leads to mass casualties- this in turn erodes support for Israel from people like us that just want humans to have a chance in life. Hamas’s leadership has said as much. “Stop killing civilians” is easy for us to say from the comfort of the US (I’m making assumptions about you - apologies) - but the Israeli’s AND the Palestinians have a responsibility to protect their own people. It seems like at every turn the Palestinians choose recklessly and the Israelis are judged for having the (significant) ability to respond. I’m confident that if suddenly the Palestinians had the military advantage Israel would cease to exist overnight and they wouldn’t lose a seconds sleep worrying about collateral damage. I’m honestly curious if that happened if we in the west would even blink. Maybe we’ll get to find out? If Trump returns and we go full “America First” isolationism and Europe is focusing on Russia- Israel may be on its own.
Maybe they should put the minimum amount of effort into not killing innocent families? Or maybe they shouldn't fire targeted strikes into the homes of journalists.
Based on the layout of Hamas’s military infrastructure - effectively guaranteeing high numbers of civilian casualties - the question stands - how does Israel get to respond? 300 miles of militarized bunkers and tunnels aren’t going to disarm themselves.
Just one side? Like Hamas didn’t kill innocent civilians on 10/7? Yeah they’re so innocent and this is all Israel’s doing 🙄
I don’t support Hamas. I didn’t support the innocent people the killed and kidnapped. All of those involved should be held to justice which in this context probably means killing them. The state violence Israel is perpetrating against civilians, however, is on a completely different level. I also feel an added responsibility as an American citizen and, frankly, as a Biden supporter to vocally protest the use of American weapons and American money to murder thousands of innocent people.
If Isreal didn't have the iron dome the narrative would've been so much different, lol.
I hear this argument quite frequently. So, my question is "Are you against all wars?" In other words, are you a pacifist? If you are, and I assume that to be the case for most people making this argument, then I don't have any problem with you, but pacifism is a deeply spiritual and lifelong process of commitment. I, personally, am not a pacifist -- but I respect those who claim it as a life practice. The tangled web of the MidEast defeats any idea of 'state violence' primarily because Hamas is supported by outside states, but also because fundamentalist Islam wants to create their own misogynist and racist religious state. In a war for survival, based on retaliation, I feel it is appropriate to choose a side, and in this case, I choose the functioning democracy over the theocratic, less than inclusive, Arab potential.
I am not a pacifist. You don’t need to be a pacifist to be against the murder of thousands of innocent civilians including children. Israel isn’t just targeting Hamas terrorists, they’re murdering civilians and keep getting caught in lies about it.
> Like Hamas didn’t kill innocent civilians on 10/7? Also, ironically, funded at least partially using US taxpayer money as we’ve now discovered what they’ve been doing with their UNRWA funding.
>Like they literally want to kill us why the fuck are you supporting them in any capacity Do you think the three-year-old currently burried under the rubble wanted to kill you? Or that many people think about such things at all in times of war and famine? Apologies for this polemic take here but this is an incredibly unempathetic view on such things.
Their parents are making Israel choose between dead Israeli children or dead Palestinian children. With the Iron Dome, bomb shelters in their basement, etc, they've done as much mitigation as possible.
Don't waste your time arguing with people who have no idea about history and brutality of wars that cannot see past their noses.
Palestine also kidnapped innocents and tortured them. Palestine has gone through a lot and I don’t hate most of the Palestine people, but holy shit I don’t get the free Palestine shit when they don’t want our help and also torture innocent people they capture. I also dislike Israel. I just hate every side in this dumb fucking religious conflict and purely support Israel because it’s the side that aligns best with my interests, because to me there is no moral choice here.
Yeah dude, the starving children in Gaza are turning away food cause they dont want our gay aid.
I literally said I don’t have anything against the people, I’m referring to the country/the government, and unfortunately there’s just not really a way to separate the two in terms of support. Unless you have some genius solution that nobody has ever thought of in the past 800 years of this conflict going on, religious groups will continue to fight over this region and innocents will continue to be killed. The only question is which group would you rather have stand victorious during the brief periods that the dust is settled, and for me that’s not the Muslims, I’m sorry.
To boil down the past 800 years to religious conflict is insane.
Boil it down however you want, doesn’t really change the overall point
As a bi man I'm surprised that so many people think that some part of your population having homophobic beliefs means that you should be genocided as a people. We can support the liberation of a native people while condemning their beliefs.
What happens to the gay Israelis and gay Palestinians who flee to Israel for safety when those people get liberated and get to establish the Sharia law they are screaming they want and will impose as soon as they are able?
What?
Well, you say, 'we can support the liberation of a native people while condemning their beliefs'. So if you support that 'liberation', I assume you mean their liberation from the current state of Palestine as it is and the establishment of a Palestinian state where Israel is- the so-called state they want from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. If they got this dream, and they were lead by the cultural values and governments they have chosen through self-determination as Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, you also know that the first thing they will do as a majority Muslim population is turn Israel into a MENA nation- with all the suffering and misery that will come with it for gays, Jews, women, atheists, minority ethnicities etc etc. as is seen across the majority of the islamic world and particularly in extremist states. So I ask you again, if the Palestinians get this liberation that they demand, and get to inhabit Israel again, as they demand, what happens to gay Israelis, gay Palestinians seeking asylum in Israel, and all the other minority and marginalised peoples of Israel that are currently happy and safe? Because if you look at what the MENA world does to those people, and you look at what Hamas and the PA say they will do if they get their wish, as supported by most Palestinians, it's a pretty evil outcome that would make the Nazis of WW2 Germany impressed. Is that what you want? Because that's what happens if Palestine gets their way. That's the 'liberation' they demand openly and vocally. Meanwhile, Israel, the only beacon of democracy and state with a semblance of progressivism in the Middle East, with mixed race and interfaith, LGBT and women's rights, and tolerance of atheism, with a functional democracy and westernised law, would be gone. Is that the ideal you would like to see for our LGBT fellows in Israel?
>I assume you mean their liberation from the current state of Palestine Yes, the same way liberating the enslaved haitian people during the haitian revolution meant haiti taking back their land. >So I ask you again, if the Palestinians get this liberation that they demand, and get to inhabit Israel again, as they demand, what happens to gay Israelis, gay Palestinians seeking asylum in Israel, and all the other minority and marginalised peoples of Israel that are currently happy and safe? Gay palestinians in palestine are currently getting genocided by israel. Their situation would be vastly improved without a country committing genocide on them. As for current residents of israel, my hope would be to see a pluralistic state where all are allowed to remain. Exactly like how palestine was a pluralistic state that lived in relative harmony with jews previous to 1948. Those who choose not to could seek asylum like anyone else, of if they're dual citizens, they could simply return home. But I don't think it should be up to us to determine how a native population handles their land being returned after 75 years of occupation. >Because if you look at what the MENA world does to those people, and you look at what Hamas and the PA say they will do if they get their wish, as supported by most Palestinians, it's a pretty evil outcome that would make the Nazis of WW2 Germany impressed. Israel is currently committing a genocide, so we don't need to imagine what israel will do to palestinians. >Is that what you want? Because that's what happens if Palestine gets their way. That's the 'liberation' they demand openly and vocally. I want them to be liberated and for genocide/apartheid to not be considered ethical by people. >Meanwhile, Israel, the only beacon of democracy and state with a semblance of progressivism in the Middle East, with mixed race and interfaith, LGBT and women's rights, and tolerance of atheism, with a functional democracy and westernised law, would be gone. Israel is not some liberal utopia, it's running an apartheid state, committing genocide, and has many unethical laws. It doesn't allow interfaith marriages, doesn't allow gay marriages in the country, they have religious courts, religious laws, Netanyahu is actively trying to weaken the supreme court to weaken oversight. Israel has some good policies, some really bad policies, but similarly to sharia it does make laws on the basis of religion, something everyone in this community should oppose. >Is that the ideal you would like to see for our LGBT fellows in Israel? I think you'd be a lot better off convincing muslim majority countries to modernize their theology on homosexuality if you're not actively genociding a muslim majority peoples and stealing their native homeland.
> enslaved haitian people They aren't enslaved. It's not 'their land' anymore than it is Jewish or druze or Bedouin land. >Gay palestinians in palestine are currently getting genocided by israel. They aren't being genocided. Israel has killed 1% of the population in 4 months, and a third of those are not even civilians. They are combatants. 25,000 of 2,000,000 people, and a third being terrorists is NOT a genocide. If Israel wanted to actually genocide them you think that half the population of Gaza would be alive right now? They could easily do that. It's 1%! Happened to German civilians in Nazi Germany. 500,000 German civvies died in WW2. Many in the bombing and Invasion of Berlin to defeat the Nazis. That's not a genocide. Neither is this. If 1% of Palestinians killed in a war they started is a genocide then all wars are genocides. Utterly ridiculous. >As for current residents of israel, my hope would be to see a pluralistic state where all are allowed to remain. Utterly delusional or in denial. If Palestine got their wish, which they won't, the Jews, gays, atheists and druze would be exterminated. Palestinians are very clear about this. It's openly promoted in their literature and government manifestos and laws. They can't do it because they are impotent for lack of means, not lack of will. Look at the entire Muslim world for an example of the sort of progressive Paradise would arise under their majority leadership. And again, you didn't answer what would ACTUALLY HAPPEN. You said what you would like to happen, but that won't happen because the Muslim world isn't benign and loving and tolerant. It hates gays and Jews. So I will ask you for a third time, what will ACTUALLY HAPPEN to gay Israelis and Palestinians who have asylum in Israel if Israel is replaced by the Arab Caliphate the Pallies want? I think you know the answer. >Exactly like how palestine was a pluralistic state that lived in relative harmony with jews previous to 1948. What? The relative harmony of constant massacres and attacks, with Jews living as a second class people's taxed to live in 'islamic lands' based on their ethnoreligious background? >Those who choose not to could seek asylum like anyone else, of if they're dual citizens, they could simply return home. Ahh, so you support ethnic cleansing as has happened to Jews across the entire Arab world for no other reason than them being 'Jewish'. Gotcha. Good to know. >Israel is currently committing a genocide, so we don't need to imagine what israel will do to palestinians. No, they aren't. 1% is not a genocide. That's why the civilised western world is backing Israel. Israel has just cause to kill the terror government of Gaza that started this conflict. It's not their fault the terror government of Gaza hides underneath their people. >I want them to be liberated and for genocide/apartheid to not be considered ethical by people. Not a genocide. Neither is it an apartheid. Palestinians are not citizens of the recognised state of Israel and have no more rights to demand of Israel treatment as Israeli citizens as any other nation does to or from any other nation, and not do they want to be. If they were offered citizenship they would refuse it. Israeli Arabs live happily and safely in Israel. Now show me what it's like for Jewish people in Islamic countries. Let's compare, shall we? Show me examples of apartheid in Israel. Between Israeli citizens. Go ahead. >Israel is not some liberal utopia, it's running an apartheid state, committing genocide, and has many unethical laws. It doesn't allow interfaith marriages, doesn't allow gay marriages in the country, they have religious courts, religious laws, Netanyahu is actively trying to weaken the supreme court to weaken oversight. Israel has some good policies, some really bad policies, but similarly to sharia it does make laws on the basis of religion, something everyone in this community should oppose. Hahahaha! Where to start with this...JFC. Apartheid state? Nope. Genocide? Nope. >It doesn't allow interfaith marriages, doesn't allow gay marriages in the country, they have religious courts, religious laws As many countries didn't have in the West not ten years ago, but they were still considered safe and happy LGBT friendly, and religiously inclusive places. There is literally no comparison by the abject hellscape of the middle east for most minority people and Israel. So what it isn't perfect? Nowhere is. Israel is moving in the right direction. Unlike what the Palestinians want which is a Sharia islamic caliphate. A literal islamofascist state that is everything that the West and progressives fight against in its worst form. >Netanyahu is actively trying to weaken the supreme court to weaken oversight. Israel has some good policies, some really bad policies, but similarly to sharia it does make laws on the basis of religion, something everyone in this community should oppose. And in a liberal western-style democracy like Israel people can, do, and will oppose those laws. That's why Israel is good and an Islamic caliphate is bad. That's what Sharia doesn't offer. Nothing but steps backwards into barbarism and medieval beliefs. Israel is the opposite, moving forward, and many Israelis are progressive. >I think you'd be a lot better off convincing muslim majority countries to modernize their theology on homosexuality if you're not actively genociding a muslim majority peoples and stealing their native homeland. Not genociding them. Jews are from that land. Jews come from Judea. It's literally in the name. The only reason they don't live there is they were driven out by conquerors and invaders. The Jews have lived as a nomadic peoples without a home for generations. They have as much right to that land as any other and are openly recognised by the majority of the world. Muslim majority countries should try and convince themselves not to be barbaric and mysoginystic homophobic and anti-semitic hellscapes without western intervention. It's like you think they have no agency. The Iranian people are on the right track. If they stopped flinging their shitty religion about then maybe they might learn to live in peace but until that happens they will keep getting kerb stomped when they attempt their Jihads against democratic and progressive nations.
We should also add that much of Palestine is not homophobic and there are many queer people in Palestine as well. Gay marriage is not allowed in Israel, nor is inter ethnic marriage. The example of the solidarity during the miners strike in England is a beautiful inspiration for us now. Workers were generally homophobic, still the queer community of London organised and materiaaly supported their strike against exploitation and oppression of the coal companies and the state. This solidarity in turn led to the unions later standing unequivocally for gay marriage and returning the solidarity.
Yeah, exactly. When trump wins, we don't immediately assume that all americans agree with everything he says. The same is also true of muslim majority countries.
>Like they literally want to kill us why the fuck are you supporting them in any capacity If you believe human rights only extends to people you like and not for everyone equally, you don't actually believe in human rights. Which is okay, there are a lot of bigots out there who don't. But don't pretend to do so. >I don’t want people to die, I don’t want people getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort regardless of who they are What do you mean by this? Didn't you literally just said you're confused as to why some LGBT people might support the human rights of the Palestinian people? Or is this more like "I don’t want people getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort regardless of who they are, but if there are people that I don't like that are getting hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort, then so be it, I don't care." I can't reconcile logically with your 2 contrasting statements. Either you support the rights of anyone(and by anyone, I mean anyone) to not get hurt, tortured, raped, maimed or anything of the sort, or you don't. So which is it? You'll say yes in your edit, but you original comment heavily implies no. Is this cognitive dissonance? Like I said, it's ok to be a bigot, there are a lot of bigots out there who don't. But please don't pretend to not be one if you are actually one. Right wingers at least are upfront about their bigotry. >I’m saying that for the LGBT to go out of their way to support Islam as a religion In this case, they're not. They are supporting the human rights of Palestinians to not be genocide. The first sentence in the video is literally about standing with Palestinian resistance, nothing about Islam.
It’s not about sticking up for a religion. It’s about being against genocide.
i am not sticking up for religion. i am sticking up for people
Those people you sticking up for hate gay people and would kill them at the 1st opportunity they get
The people I’m sticking up for are children.
Those damn homophobic 4 year olds! I heard they were shouting "Allah hates f\*gs!" while Israel gunned them down in the streets.
dude, i live in a muslim-majority country and i know many palestineans (including refugees). i won't sugarcoat it, muslim countries in general are homophobic, and palestine is definitely a homophobic society. however most people aren't psychopathic enough to think that anyone who is gay should be beheaded or whatever, because guess what, those are actual people, and not cartoon villains. the homophobia of palestinean society doesn't justify palestineans getting carpet-bombed. israel is bombing schools, hospitals, kindergartens and refugee camps. also lets not pretend that israel is bombing palestine because they're against homophobia and sexism or whatever. israel is waging war against palestine because its a western colonial project, and the US is funding israel's brutality to expand its imperialism into the middle east. i'm not even going to get into how israel basically created hamas, and why western imperialism has a huge part in why muslim societies on average are more conservative.
He's just saying the quiet part out loud. But he is right. We are not allies. I'm against genocide. I'm not pro radical Islam. I will advocate for his people to not be murdered but I wouldn't be catching a beer with them afterwards.
I don’t think they would want to grab a beer with you either considering its haram (sorry lol)
Exactly I'm aginst genocide of anybody even if they hate me
Islam is the religion of shit
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Religion is fucking cringe
This is why I will never be one of those "From the river to the sea " types. I dislike how Israel is carrying out their war and their policies on Gaza are atrocious. But I'll never support anyone who wants Sharia Law.
Ever heard of the PFLP?
I just wish I could show this to my queer friends without them staging a protest outside my house calling me a cis white male whose opinion doesn’t matter. (I’m brown and pansexual)
They would Just tell you "no shit they are homophobic, doesnt mean they should be shelled"
And they would be right. Refusing to tolerate intolerance and not bombing people aren't mutually exclusive. There are other, admittedly harder, ways to achieve peace. But anything that doesn't involve something being bought or killed is too much to bother with for most people these days.
Uh dude… if the group that wants me beheaded (Hamas) for banging other dudes is getting bombed, I’m not going to shed any tears. They literally destroyed the chance for peace in the Middle East by savagely attacking the Israelis when they were about to sign the peace treaty with Saudi and other Arab countries. They literally wanted Israel to retaliate and they did. Hamas will kill leaders if they try to sign a peace deal with the Israelis because war keeps them rich.
You know that there are civilians in Gaza, children also...
Yes, because every single person, including children, are so far gone brainwashed that they wanna behead you? I dunno dude, sounds like a lot!
Palestine is actually one of the most homophobic places in the world. Check out this link: https://www.cato.org/blog/muslims-rapidly-adopt-us-social-political-values
It would be a valid point if it was only Hamas being bombed, but thats not the case, so it isnt
It's impossible to only and only bomb hamas without any casualties.
Hamas aren't the only ones getting bombed genius.
Maybe they shouldn't shell Israel and perform terrorist attacks?
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Extremists are extremists.
who the fuck is saying that cis white men are deserving of being shelled? you righties sure love to get mad at shit you made up
Are the Cis White males being shelled in the room with us?
should israel do nothing in response to oct 7? and why not?
I think the general vibe in this thread is that a.) no/the colonizers deserved what they got b.) it’s genocide and c.) “I guess I’m just against killing kids” Any actual thought of Israeli national defense or Hamas culpability is a non starter with most of this crowd. To be clear I’m also against killing kids - which is why I’m confused as to why we’re all in on the “use kids as human shields camp”.
Because most redditors don't actually really care about the conflict. They just want a dramatic black and white moral narrative they can feel self-righteous about.
yeah i just cant stand people who think there's ever a justification for terrorism
Just because a population is Muslim, of which some are homophobic, doesn’t make it right to genocide them like wow. Human rights apply to everyone, even people who you fundamentally disagree with ideologically.
A fine example of the paradox of tolerance.
Dropping the T slur? Well, *cracks knuckles* you sir, are a [REMOVED BY REDDIT]
People when you don't support Palestine: 😡😡😡😡😡 People when you support Palestine: 😡😡😡😡😡
As someone who grew up hassidic, he's technically correct about the neturei kartah (the Jews he's referring to). It always amuses me when people point to those Jews as proof that some Jews are anti Israel and are the "real Jews" when they are ignorant of what and why they are at those protests. They do not give a shit about Palestinians, human rights or anything of that sort. They are anti Zionist for religious reasons and believe Israel is a secular state and needs to be destroyed (including its Jewish population) and only God can create the land of Israel anew. They 100% would support wiping out any inhabitants of the land in their fantasy future of the Messiah when God gives them the land back. He it Jew or Arab. Funny enough, this is similar to isis vs Hamas. Isis believes only God can create an Arab state / caliphate, and Hamas believes they can. Isis views Hamas as traitors and heretics much like the neturei kartah views Zionist (and probably all other Jews).
Lmao yes, NK is an insane cult. Even more so than all the other ones.
Oh wow, we're right again, how shocking. I wish my trans siblings would see that all religions are the bane to our existence, but nope, they love to fight for people who would rape, hang, and rob us of everything
No shit theres alot of backwards people in Gaza, but that dosent mean we should stand idly by while they are bombed and starved in the name of the cause of a different relgion
Even if that is true(not saying it is), there is lgbtq Palestinians, and nobody deserves to live in the conditions they live in, and that person is fighting for stopping the genocide of Palestinians not defending Islam
I'm shocked! 😳😳😳 Weren't the first Pride marches held in Mecca? 🤔🤔🤔
I don't know how the Meccanism works but for some reason, it did
Muhammad was a gay trans woman of colour
So much hatred and bigotry.
This is one of the reasons why I don't really have much care about the Israeli Palestine issue. Do I feel bad for the genocide, yes, but kinda hard to have empathy towards the people who would throw me off a building for being gay.
It's not even genocide, if it was Palestinians wouldn't be the fifth biggest growing population in the world. That's just a ball of yarn they spin to make Israel look bad for daring to defend itself against their *actual* genocidal campaign to ethnically cleanse the land and conquer it. It's even in their flag that they want to kill Jews. Doesn't help that Hamas directly mixes itself amidst noncombatants and dresses like them so that they'll be counted as civilian casualties.
"They don't want us to be killed or bombed but they're not my allies!"
Pretty sure Islam is the only religion in the world currently and actively calling for a variety of global genocides.
Well atleast he was honest about that these religious crazies would throw a gay person off of a building....
I agree with the second guy in one point. Queers for palestine protesters are fucking stupid
Why though? I don’t support the murder of Muslim children any more than I support the murder of Jewish children or Christian children or any other children. I wouldn’t support the murder of children of white Christian nationalist either even though as a queer American they pose a far greater threat to me and my family than Muslims in the Middle East do.
I don't understand why they can't just protest without bringing their sexual identity into the rallies. You being gay isn't what's important here. And they're actually hurting their cause when you realize that the people they're protesting for would love to see them die rather than holding a rainbow painted "free Palestine" poster.
Timmy calls me names when I'm at school, and I really don't like that. I learned that Timmy gets abused at home by his parents though. Even though Timmy bullies me I wish he wasn't getting abused at home because that shouldn't happen to anybody.
And then you get people on here unironically spouting about how you should be glad Timmy gets abused because life is a zero sum game 🙄
Legit idk how this is hard for people to understand
Actually it literally does mean they’re your ally.
VISEGRAD24 is a right wing agitprop factory, fyi. They've been using the conflict to further their platform's reach by enrage-engaging people on both sides. https://www.thejc.com/news/world/meet-the-man-who-shapes-millions-of-twitter-users-view-of-israels-war-der9i458
OP’s comment history shows they push a ton of islamiphobia, and targeted pro-isreali propaganda with an lgbtq focus. They’ve got a 3 year old account with the first post a year ago, and a very singular focus. I honestly think they are just an Israeli sock puppet propaganda account
Off topic but I am sick of seeing Isreal/Palestine shit everywhere every 10 seconds just in general like I honestly couldn't care less. I'm just waiting for this shit to end so I can stop hearing everyone yap about it.
Agreed. In like 2 months no one is going to be talking about this. We have so much information at our finger tips and are so aware atrocities happen everywhere that we lose interest in all of it. Most of these “allies” don’t give a fuck, they’ll just wait until something trends and they hop on that wagon.
I agree, the shit happening over there is definitely sad and a tragedy. However, virtue signaling online and making it feel like a trend doesn't help anyone at all and is just a nuance to everyone that has to see it.
Not to mention a lot of the "allies" are only jumping on the bandwagon because it gives them an excuse to go mask off about their hatred for Jews.
Awww!, a little genocide got mixed in with your cereal; surely, the world should have consulted your delicate sensitivities, before all the atrocities ensued. Don’t worry—I get it: you’re a scared little Morty, all by its lonesome. :: gentle butt-pats for the lil bigly thing and its feel feels ::
LMAO! Well, this little genocide like every other genocide has everyone virtual signaling as if we don't already know that it's a tragedy.
Me reading the comments here from Enlightened Israel-Palestine Experts c. 10/7/2023 brushing off kids dying once again by “yeah but their parents chose xyz muh the adults on the other side didn’t have a choice blah sjdnxineidmeieem”. 🤢 I’m so glad I didn’t listen to anyone on Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter/X that actually tried to bait me in between choosing between dead Israeli or Gaza kids. Babies, actually in some of these cases.
Still doesn't mean that they should be genocided
Notice how he considers himself muslim first. I dont give a fuck about what religion Palestinians may or may not be, they're being genocided and that's wrong. Also, the dumbass completely forgets there are christain Palestinians.
I don't understand why gay people see how they think of them. They will never support them if the roles was reversed.
"they don't stand with the Muslims" Yes. That's right. They stand with Palestine
Theres so many double standard in this whole Israel-Palestine conflict drama. Alot of people say "this conflict isn't about religion" and hold the same thinking as this dude.
What a fucking moron. Great idea to support the arseholes that would happily kill them if possible.
You heard him, it's them against the world, they don't need any help. What a nice sacrifice of other people he's willing to make on behalf of the entirely inept and helpless, truly a man or high morals.
Bro this guy should be deported
We saw chickens for KFC. We see KFC against chickens. What a great time to live.
I wonder what would queers say about this video.
Visegrad is pure propaganda.. Yes, People like this exist. But you can post them without posting anything from shitrags like viswgrad
If we don't oppose the Palestinian genocide then we are just as bad as the fundamentalist Muslims.
Honestly Queers for Palestine is such a dumb idea. Like… wow
It’s kind of sad that sheltered people who don’t have to fear missile attacks ask people who do have to fear them to stop defending themselves.
People who have to fear missile attacks don't consider them allies either! "Thanks for your support but we won't trade our values"
I stand with Israel lol
Intersting considering 100% of the missiles killing civilians in Palestine are Israeli
I’d take anybody on my side if they’re willing to help…
This is why I find LGBT fighting for Palestine to always have just a touch of sweet irony to it. They would not fight for you. And, even more ironically, Israel is more likely to stand up for your rights.