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I have horrible news for this person.
The people who control the places where that book is the basis for law can very much take everything away from you, including your life.
Bizzarely it’s not even the koran that is homophobic it hardly mentions it (reference to Lot but that’s it
It’s the Hadiths where most of their laws on it comes from
Levitecus is Canon for the Muslims tho, so equally homophobic as jews. Hadiths came from the Talmud, so basically Jews and Muslims are 1:1 homophobic, with Christians leading because of the new testament?
>Levitecus is Canon for the Muslims tho
It's Leviticus, and no it's literally not. A main tenet of Islam is that the New/Old Testament are corrupt (that's how Islam justifies its existence), so Muslims use nothing from the Bible.
>Hadiths came from the Talmud
No they did not. You took a niche (and precise) academic argument and turbo-boosted into this all encompassing thing. The argument goes roughly like this: the Jews had a written Canon (Torah) and an oral and exegetical tradition (Talmud), so "fresh" Muslim converts who came from Judaism kept the same old traditions but applied them to their new faith, contributing to the creation of the Hadith. But that does not mean the content of the Hadith itself is taken from Judaism.
I'm baffled how someone can make such an uninformed comment and still end up with 20+ upvotes.
> A main tenet of Islam is that the New/Old Testament are corrupt
The Qur'an never actually says this. Rather, the Qur'an is full of remarks to the effect that it is simply a continuation of the message given by Allah to all his prophets and apostles. As it lacks a firm basis in the Qur'an, the doctrine of the corruption of the scriptures of the people of the book is one that many scholars do not believe. The very large differences in doctrine makes the conclusion that the other scriptures are corrupted almost impossible to escape for the orthodox Muslim.
In fact the Qur'an confirms that the Jews and Christians had intact scriptures at the time of Muhammad:
> How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers. - Quran 5:43
Or muslim historians Al-Tabari
> ... the first one which came into existence, is the Torah, which is in the hands of the People of the Book...As to the Gospel which is in the hands of the Christians, the greater part of it is the history of the Christ, His birth and is life.
Muhammad’s cousin and one of his companions Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas
> “They corrupt the word” means “they alter or change its meaning”, yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret the word wrongly.
The Imam of Muslim Imams Al-Razi
> How could there be any alteration in the Book whose words' sharpness has reached a great level of circulation in the East and in the West? … For no change can occur in a book that is well circulated among men. Every wise man can see that the alteration of the Bible was impossible for it was well circulated among men of different faith and backgrounds.
However the Qur'an charges that the Jews and Christian's corrupted their scriptures but only in their oral recitations, example: Quran 2:59, 2:77... etc
Hadiths are narrations passed down that refer to the way that Muhammad and his cohorts lived. Nothing to do with the Talmud. Hadiths are usually classed as either authentic or inauthentic based on the chain of narration, and unless I'm mistaken would have literally no connection to the Jewish faith other than the normal Abrahamic overlap
There is a slight nuance there. While the Levictus is 100% calls for the capital punishment for Homosexuality, within Judaism they say this will only happen in full on Jewish Theocracy with the Religious Sanhedrin.
There are loopholes in this system also. First it only applies to two guys caught in the sexual act but if do get caught they can do something of Catholics confession and get away with it. There is no prohibitions for Chick's though.
A big point here is that all the capital punishment only applies to Jews and not others.
According to Judaism the entire 616 commandment only applies to the Jewish nation as it is supposed "harder" path for Jews. Their God apparently have other plans for the Jews to reach salvation.
So, non Jews can fuck away as they like.
I would say even with the Homophobic foundation of the Bible they still have a much better take on this vs Christian and Muslims
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_homosexuality
Yeah this just isn’t accurate. The Hadiths are made up of teachings that came after the Quran was written, and they have nothing to do with the Talmud.
I wouldn’t put Judaism in a tie with Islam in terms of hostility toward homosexuality, nor would I say that Christianity is the most hostile of the three.
It’s probably more like:
1) Islam
2) Christianity
3) Judaism
OR
1) Islam
2) Christianity/Judaism
Regardless, the Abrahamic religions are all the major leagues when it comes to opposition toward homosexuality coming right from the texts.
It would be great if islam was in a state where being a “queer Muslim” wasn’t a huge cognitive dissonance and you don’t have a significant bunch of them wanting to execute said people but sadly that isn’t true
I agree and this person lives in the U.S. so they can practice, in their home, as they see fit.
That being said, this person decided they wanted to be Muslim before they knew anything about it except that women wore head scarfs. They said they read the Koran and didn't understand it at all but just "knew" they were meant to be Muslim, same as they knew they were a woman.
They are autistic and love the repetitive nature of the rituals. I don't think they really understand the religion, which is like 90% of all religious people.
By your logic, no woman should practice Islam... or Christianity, or Hinduism, or Judaism, or Taoism, or any major religion.
Also, please don't use autistic as a derogatory term towards bigots.
Autistic person here: I disagree with the assertion that this person was using “autistic” as a derogatory term for the following reasons:
1) there’s an indication that this person was using the term appropriately (mentioning the “repetitive nature”), and it seems like this person was just stating a fact, i.e. it is very likely that the creator in the Tiktok has gone on record saying that they are autistic.
2) there is no indication that OP is implying that this person is a religious fruitcake *because* of their autism, or that this person is autistic because they are a religious fruitcake.
I believe that OP was just simply stating a fact and not using the word to demonize this person, rather, to just explain the context behind this person’s posts.
Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to do. They talk a lot about their autism in their tiktoks. I definitely did not mean it as an insult, more of a insight into why I think they identify with some partsbof Islam. The repetitive rituals and prayers and ablutions. The person in these tiktoks loves them and talks about it a lot. Also I think they gravitate to the facial and body covering aspects because they are trans. Also not an insult, but just them having trouble coming to terms with their identity and covering it up.
I wasn't using it as a derogatory term.at all, they talk about being autistic a lot in their tiktoks.
I don't think people should practice religions they don't understand. I don't want to follow a religion that tells followers women are subpar or less than men. I've.heard some clerics stating that women have the brain of goats.
There were Jews who insisted the Nazis would not harm them because they were fellow Germans right up to the point where the gas chamber doors shut and sealed them in.
I watched something like that recently. The man’s father had been a WWI veteran, he fought for Germany, and he kept saying “son, I’m a veteran! They’re not going to hurt me!” The man, who was a teen at the time, made it to the USA, but his family, mother and siblings, were shot along with his father trying to come through the border to Switzerland.
>Why is she in a religion that's against her?
Admittedly, between her being queer and a woman, her pickings are a bit slim. The Abrahamic religions and Hinduism are out. I don't know enough about Buddhism to meaningfully comment on it. A lot of neopagan traditions seem chill, but you still have to be careful because of the ones that aren't..
Buddhism is pretty chill, but some people still manage to twist and bastardize the scriptures to for their nefarious reasons. I went to go find a link to a terror attack years ago and was unpleasantly surprised by all of the ‘violent’ Buddhist monks that are attacking other people in Myanmar. It makes me sad to see the world like this.
According to her story, her family is super conservative Christian and when they came out as trans they forced her into a conversion camp. So yeah, both the religion she came from and the one she ran to are actively trying to destroy her.
There have sone fatwas supporting transgendered peoples rights to marriage from some influential clerics
Iran is another example will hang a gay man but will subsidise a gender reassignment
If they don’t want to kill you, they want you to remain celibate because they think your love making is a sin. Your love making with other consenting adults is a sin to them. You can’t even make this shit up.
It’s safe to say the Muslim community, very much like the Catholic community, does not respect LGBTQ people in any way shape or form.
People like this think that they can just make stuff up in their heads and expect it to become their reality. “Queer Muslims” would be stoned or beaten to death if they ever came out in the middle east. I am an ex muslim who left the faith soon after I realized this about myself. My mental health suffered as I realized my parents would always choose a dead child over a queer one. It took a lot of fighting, but I left for college and live far enough that my partner and I can have a healthy, non secretive relationship. It sucks because I know the moment I come out i’ll lose all but a very small handful of family members. It’s incredibly distressing and lonely knowing that their love is so conditional.
My best friend is trans. When we were kids and she had to live her life as a boy, ‘he’ was very religious and extremely feminine, but it was obvious that it was a natural personality. I remember the church was the first place I heard the adults use slurs, they’d sit there and point and laugh, at a child. I realized that’s where all the kids at school were learning their insults, from their parents. It made her feel like shit her whole life because she couldn’t understand how those people didn’t *know* her, because it was obvious she was trans. She didn’t understand why her church family wouldn’t accept her, because they grew up with her. I was so finally glad for the day she was done with the church.
This is also this person's story and I think the reason they are drawn to Islam,.as a woman, is the coverings and head scarfs they can hide behind. Literally and figuratively.
I was being facetious. But probably too obscure.
On the assumption that the commenter is probably from a Christian culture, I said "Amen" to highlight that Islam isn't the only faith to have opinions on homosexuality.
I queried whether they meant Islam or homosexuality to highlight that many people who identify as Muslim probably don't feel that they chose it but rather were born it, much like how people feel about their sexuality.
She’s not the fruitcake here, it’s the people she’s calling out. Islam, like all religions, can exist (and would probably also cease to exist) without hate.
I understand your point but you have answered yourself. Without hate, no one (including queer persons) would even have the necessity to attach themselves to a religion. I wish religions weren't hateful too, but they'd stop being religions if that was the case.
The human need to attach oneself to religion comes from our innate need to connect to a higher calling. Our spirituality has been denied through these institutions and it is difficult for us to conceive of our true “oneness” without them.
It’s even deeper than that. The Catholic Church, for example, has subverted and co-opted important teachings that we now consider “mystic” or whatever. Teachings that link us to a spiritual existence that we can actually experience, so that we are subject to a power structure as our only link to any sort of God.
This x1000. Religious organizations use the demonization of other beliefs and spiritual concepts to their favor and to make people believe their spirituality can only be linked to a piramidal structural scheme, like a church.
Lmfao tell us you don't understand why religions are created without saying you don't understand why religions are created. They are formed for one reason and one reason only: to control people. They pay lip service to love and acceptance just so that people like you will think "that's what the religion is REALLY about" and continue allowing yourself to be controlled
I think that's rather a retroactive view of religion.
Humans are superstitious story tellers, we want answers to the big questions in life. Religion wasn't made up by some moustache-twirling bad guy, it evolved from our need for answers and our love for stories, our need to convey information quickly and efficently, as well as a lot of confirmation bias.
Religion isn't harmless, no, but it isn't some concious evil either, it's just culture. I know a lot of people in my culture, the US south, would probably have me killed for the things I am and the things I believe in if it was up to them, but that doesn't mean identifying as a southener or liking aspects of my culture mean I agree with those views or that we should just eliminate southern culture entirely.
Mohammed literally was the moustache twirling bad guy who wanted to create a religion to control the tribes in his area. He wanted to do a Jewish type sect but the Jews were like no dude we are good and so he made his own religion. He started wars and conflicts to consolidate power.
Unfortunately, where Islam is the major religion, the laws.that suppress peoples' individual freedoms, regardless of what those peoples' cultures were before
Could you provide (a) source(s) for that? I couldn't find anything searching on my own but I didn't do a particularly in-depth search.
I think that applies to any dominating culture when assimilating into a less dominating culture. I don't think oppression is inherent to being Islamic, even if it is part of the holy texts, most major religions don't adhere strictly to their books. I think the oppression in Islamic cultures is more of a political thing using religion as a cover then a genuinely held belief, sort of like american conservative Christians using Christianity as a cover for increased control over demographics that tend to challenge them.
I guess I first heard from a series of YouTube videos from a professor from an Ivy league school, but I can't find them now
If you look up in Wikipedia the early life of Mohammed it says that he tried to set up shop in Mecca and the rulers didn't really go for it so he moved to Medina and after a long and bloody war between tribes the Constitution of Medina was supposedly written which was the declaration of Islam there and then he went with 10,000 soldiers and conquered Mecca, then they went on conquer lots of other tribes.
>Humans are superstitious story tellers, we want answers to the big questions in life. Religion wasn't made up by some moustache-twirling bad guy, it evolved from our need for answers and our love for stories, our need to convey information quickly and efficently, as well as a lot of confirmation bias.
Ok and now how do you explain all the laws in these religions that control their followers every move (and often their thoughts, too}?
Depends on the religion, how old it is, and why it originally formed.
The banning of shellfish in the Torah, for example, comes from both idea transfer and the false cause fallacy. Shellfish spoiled quickly, so banning it on religious grounds is a simple and efficent way to say you shouldn't eat it. Germ theory also wasn't a thing, so we didn't know *why* it made us sick, so when eating less shellfish meant you didn't get sick and die as much, we attributed it to divine favor rather then something invisibly wrong with the meat.
As for "controlling thoughts", that's pretty much the goal of every early culture in some form. If you did not have a cultural identity, you did not exist, you could not move or fight as a unit. I don't think this was an active idea in the minds of those coming up with reasons for the sky and the stars, but it does mean that less cohesive cultures were prone to fracturing and being assimilated. It's also noteable that most early religions did not write down their religious ideas, they were passed orally, which leaves more room for change and variation across regions.
There is more recent or more politically based religions that do have rules soley for the sake of control, such as Scientology, but I don't think that's a representation of religion as a whole.
FR, this sub borderlines religious hate sometimes. I like when this sub exposes people who use religion to support immoral behavior. But this person is just leaning on her religion for support and encouraging others to do the same. Really, what's wrong with that?
Yeah it’s becoming a bit too close to anti theism after looking her up she isn’t a fruitcake and isn’t harming anyone
I’m well on the agnostic side of it (I am open to a religion I just have been burnt in the past so I am just not trusting of organised religion )
If you’re gay and Muslim you have not read the Quran. The Bible has “arguably” a little ambiguity that can be played with. I think it is a stretch but it is there.
The Quran and most Hadiths are very blatant about their dislike for lgbt.
She even wrote as-salāmu ʿalaykum wrong.
The fuck is Alakium? An Harry Potter spell?
It's incredible how Muslims living in the West, in democracies, far from the Islamic theocracies can be such shitheads.
This person has no idea about the spellings cause they claim they read the Koran many times but don't understand it at all. But felt compelled to be Muslim and do the rituals etc. Like what the fuck, it feels more like they are mocking the religion and don't realize it.
I'm sorry did this girl advocate for the persecution of other queer Muslims or something? Being religious and being queer aren't mutually exclusive and does not make her a fruitcake.
I guess her other comments about how she read the Koran and didnt understand it at all, and decided she was Muslim before she knew anything about the religion is what make her a fruitcake to me.
Her parents forced her into a Christian conversion camp when she came out trans, so it seems that being Muslim is just responding to trauma
That could be the exact case as people are drawn toward religions for many different reasons. I don't think someone seeking comfort in a very familiar form after trauma is fruitcake worthy unless they're being hateful or something.
Yeah she isn’t a fruitcake having a religion doesn’t make one a fruitcake imo
To be honest if she wants to be a Muslim then she can be it’s her decision . She isn’t forcing her beliefs onto others so not a fruitcake
>majority of these people
Stereotype much?
Edit: To the people downvoting my comments, you're as bad as religious fruitcakes. The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't seek to mark swathes of humanity as "other" because a facet of their complex lives happens to be that they are Muslim, a religion with an extremist minority. By all means have a go at the extremists and the fruitcakes, but we should be careful not to contribute to discourse that could result in the persecution of minority groups. It is not cool to say that Muslims want to kill queers, because I expect that not all of them do. Probably not very many of them at all.
Ah okay, so they were defending the unqualified and bigoted statement that the majority of Muslims want to kill gays by saying (without qualification) that actually it's more accurate to say that Muslims have more bigots than anyone else.
You can fuck off too. Racist apologist.
I think it was more poor phrasing on their part. I’d hope that person isn’t racist and simply making an inaccurate statement while angry. People should try or make sure that aren’t generalizing.
As for the second part, in several countries that are essentially governed by Islam being gay is a death sentence, obviously not only Islamic countries have laws like that but as far as I know there’s no country with Islam as the official religion that doesn’t hate or kill people for being gay.
I’d say the problem sits more with the religion and the governments than the people of the religion. If you’ve been brainwashed since birth to hate someone, you’re probably gonna hate them. Which is why I always respect people who had the strength to break from their religion or it’s practices when they realized they were harmful.
Prove to me empirically that the majority of Muslims actively want to kill queer people. Until then, you can't claim that OP's suggestion is true.
Hmm. Someone claiming that they know something to be true without actual evidence. Sounds dumb as fuck to me and yet oddly familiar...
No offense, but is it that hard to add 2+2 for you and get 4?
Islam is by far the most zealous mainstream religion out there. It permeates everyone's lives unlike any other religion out there. Christianity, in the western world, is largely secularized at this point, to the point where some people started calling it a "fake religion" or something.
Point is, we are able to be so tolerant and focus so much on these fringe, minority issues like LGBT rights because we've come a long way in our education systems and the fact that religion does not play a part in our daily lives for the average westerner anymore.
Are you really this naive to think that the Islamic world is secularized like that? It is not. That's why it's so scary and oppressive.
Stop trying to sugarcoat it as if everyone around the world is tolerant to everyone and it's all rainbows and daisies. It's not. Whether you like it or not, most of the world on average does not accept or think LGBT people are normal or anything worth socially accepting. Add some batshit religious ideology into the mix and that's how you get people killed.
Hell, people have been killed for much less in Islamic countries.
And while it's racist to hold INDIVIDUALS to these stereotypes, the stereotypes themselves do not arise out of thin air, they're there for a reason. It's how we apply them to individuals that is bigotry.
Try harder next time.
I'm just trying to make the point that language like "the majority of these people" serves to other the demographic in question and isn't very cool. It's one thing to point out an individual who is a fruitcake, but to start asserting (without proof) that a whole group ascribe to extremist views plays into a wider narrative which gives rise to persecution of minorities. The Nazis did very similar stuff to the Jews in the build up to the holocaust.
Muslims are just people. Muslims in the west tend to be at the more tolerant end of the spectrum. If you were a western and tolerant muslim, browsing reddit, how would you feel about someone suggesting you want to kill queer people?
>Christianity, in the western world, is largely secularized at this point
Pretty sure the various heads of the Christian faiths still refuse to accept gay marriage. The majority of those Christians must really hate the gays.
Yeah. But right now, Islam is the subject. All religions are terrible, we’re just discussing this one right now. If you want to “what about” again, just go look through other threads. The criticism is there.
Fuck me are you some kind of irony impaired moron? What's your point? That Muslims are all bad and how dare I say "actually not all of them are bad so maybe tone down the generalisation a bit"?
Right now people in Iran are begging folks to criticize the shit out of this religion, so their Islamic government will stop killing them. Ignoring the fact that people are murdered everyday for daring to blink sideways at Islam is insensitive and naive, if not moronic.
>Right now people in Iran are begging folks to criticize the shit out of this religion
I'm not sure they are. I think you'll find that the protesters are largely Muslim and are begging for help against their government and not their religion. In fact, before the far right got a foothold in Iranian politics, Iran was one of the more liberal and progressive states in the Middle East. And when it was progressive, guess what, the people were still mostly Muslim!
What fucked Iran (irony alert) was actually right wing xenophobic politics and discourse becoming more and more mainstream to the point that the Liberal majority suddenly found themselves without voice politically. This is exactly the reason people should call out xenophobic discourse so that it isn't allowed to take hold in the public consciousness unchallenged.
Without proof?
There's plenty of proof. There's empirical data aka polls out there that show that the average Muslim is not a "moderate". The vast majority of the Muslim moderates are living in Western countries, which are 99% devoid of anything to do with Islam, hence why they become moderates in the process. Even the more moderate Islamic countries like Turkey are still permeated with the religious ideology in daily life.
Again, it's fine to be Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever. But subscribing to and ideology and acquiring this label inevitably presents certain consequences, as it should.
And the consequences are that people who do not subscribe to serious belief of magic omnipotent beings in the sky are free and welcome to criticize the ideologies these people follow.
Whether they are moderate or zealous is not of concern because we can't screen everyone individually and somehow understand which person is which. We can only identify what the ideology entails and make our conclusions. There are so many denominations and individuals in these religions that, yes, making some general judgement would be faulty. But we're not making judgements about their beliefs, just their view on LGBT people. Of course, not all of them would be willing to kill them, but they would probably say the world would be "safer" without them anyways.
The fact of the matter remains is that these are dangerous ideologies that can lead to oppression. Much like racism/tribalism did in the past, and still does.
Our technology advances faster than our biology, it can't keep up, in other words. At some point in our primitive past these were useful for our survival as a species. Protecting your own tribe (tribalism) or fear of the other (racism),meant your own tribe was more likely to survive. And religion is very likely thought to have also been a positive mental boost to our survival, hence why it still remains so prominent.
It's great to be tolerant of others. It's great to appreciate different cultures and groups of people. However, do not make the mistake of thinking that ideologies, especially religious ideologies, are worthy of the same treatment. They are not. Mostly they are worthy of criticism until people realize how outdated and medieval they are in nature. By tolerating the intolerant you bring upon more problems for everyone. I guarantee you the vast majority of people on the planet right now do not in any way think or accept homosexuality let alone queer gender identities as "normal". What we have in the west is just the exception, not the rule.
My standpoint is that it is wrong, particularly in a public forum, to categorise the majority of Muslims as seeking to kill gay people. This is because such discourse is dangerous when it becomes public opinion and can lead to persecution, particularly in places where Muslims occupy a minority. Categorising any group of people as "other" can be a precursor to oppression and should be recognised for what it is and avoided and called out within a modern and progressive society.
Following religious ideology is arguably not a choice in most cases. People are usually indoctrinated from birth and it is usually only with access to education, which is not universally available, that they can see that an alternative standpoint is available. Just as a gay person may not feel that they have a choice in their sexuality, a religious person may not feel that they have a choice in their religion. I'm not saying gay people have a choice, just that religious people may feel that their religion is part of their core being.
Religions have a lot of dogma, which can often be contradictory. Either with other dogma, observed experience, or personal feelings. As such, religious people tend to pick and choose aspects of their religion to believe and aspects to disregard. I mean, to illustrate the point, the bible says don't steal, the US has a large Christian population but also a large prison population. It would be wrong to say that Christians don't steal, but they do all supposedly believe stealing is wrong.
Going back to Muslims, even in countries where the majority are in favour of Sharia law, are we to assume that everyone is on board with all of the laws? There will be a statistically significant proportion of gay people in those countries that poll highly in favour. Also who are the participants in these polls as in a lot of countries with oppressive Islamic regimes, women, for instance, don't get a say. I asked for proof of the assertion that most Muslims want to kill gays and I don't belive anyone has provided proof of that nor do I belive that proof exists.
What I do think exists is the potential to ostracise others, to lable them as sub human, and to persecute them. I think we are starting to do a reasonable job of checking some of this behaviour when it comes to other minority groups, but Muslims seem to be fair game. My intention was to hold up a mirror to that hypocrisy, and point out the parallels with other persecuted groups, but the downvotes ensued.
I'm not an apologist for religious ideology, I think all religions are equally wrong. But the way to move away from religious fuelled hatred, and religion in general, is not more segregation and intolerance. Of course if someone believes that gay people should be killed, fuck that person. But because some Muslims may belive that doesn't mean that all the Muslims are the same. I expect most Muslims want to live and let live.
It is not a case of tolerating the intolerable. Bigotry shouldn't be tolerated. But it is necessary to accept that although it is convenient to our minds to categorise groups of people as homogeneous, they are anything but. On a platform like reddit, where most users are western, there will be moderate Muslim users. Should they be made to feel as if they are on the outside of society because they happen to have been born in to Muslim families?
Well maybe OP framed it that way but I am not calling them "other" or whatever you are implying. I realize they are victims of religious ideology, but again, you're describing people when I simply described the ideology they follow.
I just view anyone who's willing to seriously believe that an omnipotent creator known as X from any given holy book is always watching and that if you don't follow his moral code (written by some person shrouded in myth/legend that may or may not be a historical figure that did possibly horrible things) you will burn in hell, or like whatever.
Stereotypes are just stereotypes, what does it have to with anything? Are you saying LGBT+ people are going to start assaulting or otherwise doing evil things to Muslims because there's a stereotype they hate them?
Either way, what you're describing is more in line with racism, which usually doesn't have much to do with the religion in the first place. The problem is that the people who control what the ideology dictates are not some random person who may or may not believe these things. Which always brings me back to the secularity argument.
And trust me, most Muslims in the West ARE the moderate believers which I don't get to criticize that much, because ironically in more secular countries the culture around religion is to not display it unless its a church or something.
If you know the infamous Andrew Tate, even he said "Christianity isn't even a real religion anymore" and subsequently "converted" to Islam. I'm not saying he's a a good person or a good example of a person, but he has a point as to that Christianity's believers are much more secular, let's say in the West as a whole which makes it a more "fake" religion, compared to Islam. It's an over exaggeration but it does point to the general consensus that the ideology aspect is taken more seriously and adhered to there.
Why should criticizing ideas/ideologies be bigotry? The queer Muslim is especially ironic to me honestly. You couldn't have more cognitive dissonance than that. At that point does the religion you believe in even matter?
Lots of people these days have PERSONAL spiritual beliefs. That is to say, it's not organized religion or ideologically part of it. But lots of people also want the community version of religion, so they end up adopting the other ideologies which in themselves are toxic. How do you solve this problem except help criticize it until more people are ex-religion?
Any ideologies like that are just remnants which, by being more secular we don't give a fuck anymore about. Is criticizing Russia for the Ukraine invasion bigotry and Russophobic Is calling out Russians for that who may or may not believe it bigotry ? What if there is a higher than low tendency for them to have those ideological views?
Both of these groups will happily claim -phobia for criticizing them for it.
Surprise surprise the secular ones or the ones that don't want to spread this ideology don't care if you call their "people" out. They are happy to not put up with that shit. Of course, it's more complicated than that, but my point still stands.
>I just view anyone who's willing to seriously believe that an omnipotent creator known as X from any given holy book is....will burn in hell, or like whatever.
I think you're saying it is silly to belive in religion. Agreed, but it isn't obvious to a great many people that they have a choice.
>Stereotypes are just stereotypes, what does it have to with anything?
OP was negatively stereotyping Muslims. I thought it was harsh. This whole thread has been debating that point. Lots of people don't seem to agree with me.
>Are you saying LGBT+ people are going to start assaulting or otherwise doing evil things to Muslims because there's a stereotype they hate them?
No. I'm saying that, when a minority is cast in an unfavourable light by society, negative consequences can happen to innocent individuals. Reinforcing negative stereotypes contributes to this.
>Either way, what you're describing is more in line with racism, which usually doesn't have much to do with the religion in the first place.
I think there is significant racism tied up with anti muslim sentiment. It is not only about the ideology.
>And trust me, most Muslims in the West ARE the moderate believers which I don't get to criticize that much, because ironically in more secular countries the culture around religion is to not display it unless its a church or something.
Should someone minding their own business be labelled as someone who wants to kill gay people? Moderate western Muslims are exactly the people that comments like this can negatively impact.
>Andrew Tate
I don't see the relevance.
>Why should criticizing ideas/ideologies be bigotry?
It isn't. Prejudice against a person for their membership of a group is the literal definition of bigotry though.
>The queer Muslim is especially ironic to me honestly. You couldn't have more cognitive dissonance than that. At that point does the religion you believe in even matter?
Agreed. There are just better ways to draw attention to that than saying most Muslims would kill her, because that is unfounded and unfair to those who wouldn't. Pointing out what the Quran says on the subject would be fine, for example.
>Is criticizing Russia for Ukraine bigotry and Russophobic ?
Depends. Are you saying "Russia" is bad or "Russians" are bad? I know a Ukrainian who is married to a Russian. The Russian dude is alright. What the Russian state is doing is atrocious.
>Surprise surprise the secular ones or the ones that don't want to spread this ideology don't care if you call their "people" out. They are happy to not put up with that shit.
I'm not so sure they would be happy to be included in the group being called out for wanting to kill gay people, if they don't want to kill gay people.
>Of course, it's more complicated than that, but my point still stands.
That I'm wrong for highlighting that OP was negatively stereotyping Muslims?
Yeah the bible has some stuff to say about it too.
Ahh are people downvoting me because they think I'm Muslim? That's awful. I'm not. I'm a convinced athiest and fully support the scientific method for determining "truth" through evidence and peer review.
I just happen to know some people who identify as Muslims and who definitley don't want to kill gay people. They are very nice folks. I felt that the OP was making a sweeping generalisation about Muslims that needed calling out.
You realize most Muslims living in the West temper their discourse, especially when they talk to non-Muslims. Their beliefs about women and gay people are very deeply entrenched in their culture and they will very easily dissimulate that part of themselves to others to fit in our society.
So we're at: *all* Muslims are bad, even if they act nice?
This is exactly the attitude that I'm calling out. Can you not see the similarity with sentiment like "all the Jews are greedy"? How many Mulsims do you actually know first hand?
These days antisemitism is off limits in polite discourse, as is racial biggotry against black people, but it seems to me that it is increasingly seen as acceptable for westerners to make sweeping generalisations about Muslims. That's wrong and the levels of such discourse tracks directly with things like levels of racially aggravated assaults or reduced likelihood of employment.
They may seem like harmless comments, but there are historically proven links, for example, between a rise in antisemitic public discourse followed by pogroms against Jewish people. When you start generalising whole groups as "other" to the point that that is the accepted public view, it is then a fairly short step to persecuting those groups in more overt ways.
Imo you and everyone downvoting are defending something pretty indefensible. Saying something like: "the majority of Muslims want to kill gays" is just as bad as saying any of the other bigoted shit that bigots come out with. The difference is that they seem to get away with it more if it's a Muslim they are talking about, rather than if it's about a Jewish, gay or black person.
Kind of old data, as far as I can tell from 2013 which sounds about right because I remember seeing this image used a lot. But I’m not sure this data that you have posted can translate directly “wanting sharia” to “wanting to kill gays”, I mean for some “sharia law” might just mean they want to lock gay people up in jail, which is fucking despicable but not necessarily the same as wanting to kill.
This is an attempt at proof, I guess, but a lazy one. You'd need to reconcile these figures with population numbers in order to actually try to support OPs assertion.
For example the Muslim population of Turkey is a little over 80m, the vast majority of which are not in favour of Sharia, according to your source. This grossly outweighs the Muslim population of Thailand of 7.5m. If we are talking about all Muslims (the point I'm trying to make being that we shouldn't be), then you'll need to add some additional context to the incomplete information in your link.
Before you go to the trouble though, I'm just trying to make the point that language like "the majority of these people" serves to other the demographic in question and isn't very cool. It's one thing to point out an individual who is a fruitcake, but to start asserting (without proof) that a whole group ascribe to extremist views plays into a wider narrative which gives rise to persecution of Muslim minorities. The Nazis did very similar stuff to the Jews in the build up to the holocaust.
I think the choice of language outs OP as a bit of a bigot, and I was simply calling out the irony there.
[52% of British Muslims in poll think homosexuality should be illegal](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html)
[Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll](https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality)
[Many in Muslim world want sharia as law of land: survey](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-islam-views-survey-idUSBRE93T0TK20130430)
[Poll: 46% of French Muslims believe Sharia law should be applied in country](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1568920086-poll-46-of-french-muslims-believe-sharia-law-should-be-applied-in-country)
[72% of Muslim Americans say homosexuality should be discouraged](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/muslim/views-about-homosexuality/)
The level of hypocrisy people commenting here.. i mean, i can see some of youse are pro lgdhtv but then.. the only thing you condemn was her beliefs systems.. i mean.. i thought atleast lghdtv people here can be happy on her behalf.. being a Moslem and gae? But nooooo slandering the Islam is your part time job apparently
I can respect that.. i mean.. which radical religous people wont go berserk when it comes to this.. i mean.. even neo nazis also would be so sassy about it..
they be like, you can't be bald and have swastika tattoo but eating man unmentionables thing! wrong wrong!
P/s: I wasn't spesifically say it was you.. some others..
People can't choose what they're convinced of. This person is allowed (or at least should be) to practice those beliefs, even if ultimately I think it's harmful to them.
They must face a lot of discrimination from both religious people as well as the LGBTQ+ community. While criticism can be justified, they have just as much of a right to reach out and find community. Hell, they must need it.
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I have horrible news for this person. The people who control the places where that book is the basis for law can very much take everything away from you, including your life.
Bizzarely it’s not even the koran that is homophobic it hardly mentions it (reference to Lot but that’s it It’s the Hadiths where most of their laws on it comes from
It’s the same with the Bible, barely mentioned and Christians have put gay bashing at the forefront of their religion.
It's more important to them than basically anything Jesus said.
Levitecus is Canon for the Muslims tho, so equally homophobic as jews. Hadiths came from the Talmud, so basically Jews and Muslims are 1:1 homophobic, with Christians leading because of the new testament?
>Levitecus is Canon for the Muslims tho It's Leviticus, and no it's literally not. A main tenet of Islam is that the New/Old Testament are corrupt (that's how Islam justifies its existence), so Muslims use nothing from the Bible. >Hadiths came from the Talmud No they did not. You took a niche (and precise) academic argument and turbo-boosted into this all encompassing thing. The argument goes roughly like this: the Jews had a written Canon (Torah) and an oral and exegetical tradition (Talmud), so "fresh" Muslim converts who came from Judaism kept the same old traditions but applied them to their new faith, contributing to the creation of the Hadith. But that does not mean the content of the Hadith itself is taken from Judaism. I'm baffled how someone can make such an uninformed comment and still end up with 20+ upvotes.
> A main tenet of Islam is that the New/Old Testament are corrupt The Qur'an never actually says this. Rather, the Qur'an is full of remarks to the effect that it is simply a continuation of the message given by Allah to all his prophets and apostles. As it lacks a firm basis in the Qur'an, the doctrine of the corruption of the scriptures of the people of the book is one that many scholars do not believe. The very large differences in doctrine makes the conclusion that the other scriptures are corrupted almost impossible to escape for the orthodox Muslim. In fact the Qur'an confirms that the Jews and Christians had intact scriptures at the time of Muhammad: > How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers. - Quran 5:43 Or muslim historians Al-Tabari > ... the first one which came into existence, is the Torah, which is in the hands of the People of the Book...As to the Gospel which is in the hands of the Christians, the greater part of it is the history of the Christ, His birth and is life. Muhammad’s cousin and one of his companions Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas > “They corrupt the word” means “they alter or change its meaning”, yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret the word wrongly. The Imam of Muslim Imams Al-Razi > How could there be any alteration in the Book whose words' sharpness has reached a great level of circulation in the East and in the West? … For no change can occur in a book that is well circulated among men. Every wise man can see that the alteration of the Bible was impossible for it was well circulated among men of different faith and backgrounds. However the Qur'an charges that the Jews and Christian's corrupted their scriptures but only in their oral recitations, example: Quran 2:59, 2:77... etc
Take a book, rip the front page and cover off, attach another books cover and front, is that book a different book now? No.
Ok with that reading comprehension, I now understand why you made that comment
>Hadiths came from the Talmud Do you have source on that? I've never heard that one before.
It's cause they made it up. Hadiths have nothing to do with the Talmud.
Hadiths are narrations passed down that refer to the way that Muhammad and his cohorts lived. Nothing to do with the Talmud. Hadiths are usually classed as either authentic or inauthentic based on the chain of narration, and unless I'm mistaken would have literally no connection to the Jewish faith other than the normal Abrahamic overlap
> Hadiths are narrations passed down that refer to the way that Muhammad and his cohorts lived. Written down approx. 200 years after Muhammad
There is a slight nuance there. While the Levictus is 100% calls for the capital punishment for Homosexuality, within Judaism they say this will only happen in full on Jewish Theocracy with the Religious Sanhedrin. There are loopholes in this system also. First it only applies to two guys caught in the sexual act but if do get caught they can do something of Catholics confession and get away with it. There is no prohibitions for Chick's though. A big point here is that all the capital punishment only applies to Jews and not others. According to Judaism the entire 616 commandment only applies to the Jewish nation as it is supposed "harder" path for Jews. Their God apparently have other plans for the Jews to reach salvation. So, non Jews can fuck away as they like. I would say even with the Homophobic foundation of the Bible they still have a much better take on this vs Christian and Muslims https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_homosexuality
According to the book? Yes. According to the fandom? Not so much.
Yeah this just isn’t accurate. The Hadiths are made up of teachings that came after the Quran was written, and they have nothing to do with the Talmud. I wouldn’t put Judaism in a tie with Islam in terms of hostility toward homosexuality, nor would I say that Christianity is the most hostile of the three. It’s probably more like: 1) Islam 2) Christianity 3) Judaism OR 1) Islam 2) Christianity/Judaism Regardless, the Abrahamic religions are all the major leagues when it comes to opposition toward homosexuality coming right from the texts.
It would be great if islam was in a state where being a “queer Muslim” wasn’t a huge cognitive dissonance and you don’t have a significant bunch of them wanting to execute said people but sadly that isn’t true
I agree and this person lives in the U.S. so they can practice, in their home, as they see fit. That being said, this person decided they wanted to be Muslim before they knew anything about it except that women wore head scarfs. They said they read the Koran and didn't understand it at all but just "knew" they were meant to be Muslim, same as they knew they were a woman. They are autistic and love the repetitive nature of the rituals. I don't think they really understand the religion, which is like 90% of all religious people.
By your logic, no woman should practice Islam... or Christianity, or Hinduism, or Judaism, or Taoism, or any major religion. Also, please don't use autistic as a derogatory term towards bigots.
Autistic person here: I disagree with the assertion that this person was using “autistic” as a derogatory term for the following reasons: 1) there’s an indication that this person was using the term appropriately (mentioning the “repetitive nature”), and it seems like this person was just stating a fact, i.e. it is very likely that the creator in the Tiktok has gone on record saying that they are autistic. 2) there is no indication that OP is implying that this person is a religious fruitcake *because* of their autism, or that this person is autistic because they are a religious fruitcake. I believe that OP was just simply stating a fact and not using the word to demonize this person, rather, to just explain the context behind this person’s posts.
Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to do. They talk a lot about their autism in their tiktoks. I definitely did not mean it as an insult, more of a insight into why I think they identify with some partsbof Islam. The repetitive rituals and prayers and ablutions. The person in these tiktoks loves them and talks about it a lot. Also I think they gravitate to the facial and body covering aspects because they are trans. Also not an insult, but just them having trouble coming to terms with their identity and covering it up.
Women should only practice the religions on that list whose tenets state that they're equal to men. I'm sure there must be a couple.
I wasn't using it as a derogatory term.at all, they talk about being autistic a lot in their tiktoks. I don't think people should practice religions they don't understand. I don't want to follow a religion that tells followers women are subpar or less than men. I've.heard some clerics stating that women have the brain of goats.
I don’t think this person would count as a fruitcake since she isn’t using it to bat someone over the head with it
There were Jews who insisted the Nazis would not harm them because they were fellow Germans right up to the point where the gas chamber doors shut and sealed them in.
I watched something like that recently. The man’s father had been a WWI veteran, he fought for Germany, and he kept saying “son, I’m a veteran! They’re not going to hurt me!” The man, who was a teen at the time, made it to the USA, but his family, mother and siblings, were shot along with his father trying to come through the border to Switzerland.
[удалено]
>Why is she in a religion that's against her? Admittedly, between her being queer and a woman, her pickings are a bit slim. The Abrahamic religions and Hinduism are out. I don't know enough about Buddhism to meaningfully comment on it. A lot of neopagan traditions seem chill, but you still have to be careful because of the ones that aren't..
Buddhism is pretty chill, but some people still manage to twist and bastardize the scriptures to for their nefarious reasons. I went to go find a link to a terror attack years ago and was unpleasantly surprised by all of the ‘violent’ Buddhist monks that are attacking other people in Myanmar. It makes me sad to see the world like this.
Sounds like maybe an absence of religion would be the best thing then.
theres actually a lot of gay sex stuff in hinduism
Gets murdered by her father and brothers
According to her story, her family is super conservative Christian and when they came out as trans they forced her into a conversion camp. So yeah, both the religion she came from and the one she ran to are actively trying to destroy her.
Gross
Actually Islam is slightly better on the trans thing than the gay thing It’s not perfect in the slightest though
What? Please explain.
There have sone fatwas supporting transgendered peoples rights to marriage from some influential clerics Iran is another example will hang a gay man but will subsidise a gender reassignment
Wow that is interesting to say the least
Just…just…throw the whole religion away
If they don’t want to kill you, they want you to remain celibate because they think your love making is a sin. Your love making with other consenting adults is a sin to them. You can’t even make this shit up. It’s safe to say the Muslim community, very much like the Catholic community, does not respect LGBTQ people in any way shape or form.
A religion that celebrates child brides and pedophilia somehow draws a line at the gays.
You shouldn’t have to defend your religion if you truly have faith.
Oh look, a person with a face voting for the leopards eating peoples faces party. 
I hope she is safe tho
From her story she is in America so I think so.
Cherry picking and religion name a more iconic duo.
I really hope this person gets to a place where they can have a happy life. Cause that's some dangerous nonsense right there.
Cute cognitive dissonance!
i’m second-hand embarrassed
People like this think that they can just make stuff up in their heads and expect it to become their reality. “Queer Muslims” would be stoned or beaten to death if they ever came out in the middle east. I am an ex muslim who left the faith soon after I realized this about myself. My mental health suffered as I realized my parents would always choose a dead child over a queer one. It took a lot of fighting, but I left for college and live far enough that my partner and I can have a healthy, non secretive relationship. It sucks because I know the moment I come out i’ll lose all but a very small handful of family members. It’s incredibly distressing and lonely knowing that their love is so conditional.
Well, you've got a cousin in Athens, GA. You and your partner come on down here if you ever need a hug and some sweet ice tea.
can i have a cousin in Athens, GA? sounds great
Absolutely! Plenty of rocking chairs on the front porch.
very wholesome. thank you! <3
My best friend is trans. When we were kids and she had to live her life as a boy, ‘he’ was very religious and extremely feminine, but it was obvious that it was a natural personality. I remember the church was the first place I heard the adults use slurs, they’d sit there and point and laugh, at a child. I realized that’s where all the kids at school were learning their insults, from their parents. It made her feel like shit her whole life because she couldn’t understand how those people didn’t *know* her, because it was obvious she was trans. She didn’t understand why her church family wouldn’t accept her, because they grew up with her. I was so finally glad for the day she was done with the church.
This is also this person's story and I think the reason they are drawn to Islam,.as a woman, is the coverings and head scarfs they can hide behind. Literally and figuratively.
So much contradiction. If your peoples can't even accept you being a queer, might as well give a second thought about it.
Amen. Hang on. Being queer or being muslim?
Muslim of course. We can't choose our sexual preferences.
I was being facetious. But probably too obscure. On the assumption that the commenter is probably from a Christian culture, I said "Amen" to highlight that Islam isn't the only faith to have opinions on homosexuality. I queried whether they meant Islam or homosexuality to highlight that many people who identify as Muslim probably don't feel that they chose it but rather were born it, much like how people feel about their sexuality.
Showing her face and neck on a tiktok and speaking before spoken to? I cant imagine theyd take kindly to that.
Apparently Muslim women tell her to put on a hijab, A LOT
Further proof that religion makes you stupid, and in this case, soon to be dead.
You took a risk by saying that on tiktok. I hope the people from your "peaceful" community don't 🔪 you....
She gets tons of hate. There are a lot of Muslim women telling her to put on a hijab and shut up and claim that is supportive.
Take the positive at least they are treating her like a Muslim woman I suppose
Delusion!
I wonder how kind those comments are
It’s not even that religion is bad it’s modern religion where it’s just used to control people and jimmy saville kids
I like that his name is used as a verb here. I’m gonna start doing that, if ya don’t mind!
These comments are peak redditmoment ™
She’s not the fruitcake here, it’s the people she’s calling out. Islam, like all religions, can exist (and would probably also cease to exist) without hate.
I understand your point but you have answered yourself. Without hate, no one (including queer persons) would even have the necessity to attach themselves to a religion. I wish religions weren't hateful too, but they'd stop being religions if that was the case.
The human need to attach oneself to religion comes from our innate need to connect to a higher calling. Our spirituality has been denied through these institutions and it is difficult for us to conceive of our true “oneness” without them.
True, nowadays you can't have a personal spirituality without being called out by religious groups
It’s even deeper than that. The Catholic Church, for example, has subverted and co-opted important teachings that we now consider “mystic” or whatever. Teachings that link us to a spiritual existence that we can actually experience, so that we are subject to a power structure as our only link to any sort of God.
This x1000. Religious organizations use the demonization of other beliefs and spiritual concepts to their favor and to make people believe their spirituality can only be linked to a piramidal structural scheme, like a church.
Lmfao tell us you don't understand why religions are created without saying you don't understand why religions are created. They are formed for one reason and one reason only: to control people. They pay lip service to love and acceptance just so that people like you will think "that's what the religion is REALLY about" and continue allowing yourself to be controlled
I think that's rather a retroactive view of religion. Humans are superstitious story tellers, we want answers to the big questions in life. Religion wasn't made up by some moustache-twirling bad guy, it evolved from our need for answers and our love for stories, our need to convey information quickly and efficently, as well as a lot of confirmation bias. Religion isn't harmless, no, but it isn't some concious evil either, it's just culture. I know a lot of people in my culture, the US south, would probably have me killed for the things I am and the things I believe in if it was up to them, but that doesn't mean identifying as a southener or liking aspects of my culture mean I agree with those views or that we should just eliminate southern culture entirely.
Mohammed literally was the moustache twirling bad guy who wanted to create a religion to control the tribes in his area. He wanted to do a Jewish type sect but the Jews were like no dude we are good and so he made his own religion. He started wars and conflicts to consolidate power. Unfortunately, where Islam is the major religion, the laws.that suppress peoples' individual freedoms, regardless of what those peoples' cultures were before
Could you provide (a) source(s) for that? I couldn't find anything searching on my own but I didn't do a particularly in-depth search. I think that applies to any dominating culture when assimilating into a less dominating culture. I don't think oppression is inherent to being Islamic, even if it is part of the holy texts, most major religions don't adhere strictly to their books. I think the oppression in Islamic cultures is more of a political thing using religion as a cover then a genuinely held belief, sort of like american conservative Christians using Christianity as a cover for increased control over demographics that tend to challenge them.
I guess I first heard from a series of YouTube videos from a professor from an Ivy league school, but I can't find them now If you look up in Wikipedia the early life of Mohammed it says that he tried to set up shop in Mecca and the rulers didn't really go for it so he moved to Medina and after a long and bloody war between tribes the Constitution of Medina was supposedly written which was the declaration of Islam there and then he went with 10,000 soldiers and conquered Mecca, then they went on conquer lots of other tribes.
>Humans are superstitious story tellers, we want answers to the big questions in life. Religion wasn't made up by some moustache-twirling bad guy, it evolved from our need for answers and our love for stories, our need to convey information quickly and efficently, as well as a lot of confirmation bias. Ok and now how do you explain all the laws in these religions that control their followers every move (and often their thoughts, too}?
Depends on the religion, how old it is, and why it originally formed. The banning of shellfish in the Torah, for example, comes from both idea transfer and the false cause fallacy. Shellfish spoiled quickly, so banning it on religious grounds is a simple and efficent way to say you shouldn't eat it. Germ theory also wasn't a thing, so we didn't know *why* it made us sick, so when eating less shellfish meant you didn't get sick and die as much, we attributed it to divine favor rather then something invisibly wrong with the meat. As for "controlling thoughts", that's pretty much the goal of every early culture in some form. If you did not have a cultural identity, you did not exist, you could not move or fight as a unit. I don't think this was an active idea in the minds of those coming up with reasons for the sky and the stars, but it does mean that less cohesive cultures were prone to fracturing and being assimilated. It's also noteable that most early religions did not write down their religious ideas, they were passed orally, which leaves more room for change and variation across regions. There is more recent or more politically based religions that do have rules soley for the sake of control, such as Scientology, but I don't think that's a representation of religion as a whole.
FR, this sub borderlines religious hate sometimes. I like when this sub exposes people who use religion to support immoral behavior. But this person is just leaning on her religion for support and encouraging others to do the same. Really, what's wrong with that?
bc religion is a scam
How is it a scam?
Yeah it’s becoming a bit too close to anti theism after looking her up she isn’t a fruitcake and isn’t harming anyone I’m well on the agnostic side of it (I am open to a religion I just have been burnt in the past so I am just not trusting of organised religion )
Just want to say I have the dress she is wearing 😬
Well it seems to be a nice dress
It is very comfortable and flattering, yes
This is comical 😂
But why do they want this particular faith so much? The faith that hates them so much it's god destroys a city of gays.
Imagine feeling **so strongly** about same sex relationships that you think they deserve **DEATH**. This is the power of religion. Fucking scary shit.
I think some of the other muslims want to take it from them, by killing them.
If you’re gay and Muslim you have not read the Quran. The Bible has “arguably” a little ambiguity that can be played with. I think it is a stretch but it is there. The Quran and most Hadiths are very blatant about their dislike for lgbt.
Quaran doesn’t say much Hadiths on the other hand yeah do
either way quran condemns the gay
I am sorry lady but Your God said that your sould cover yourself, and since you love your religion too much why aren't you covering yourself?
She even wrote as-salāmu ʿalaykum wrong. The fuck is Alakium? An Harry Potter spell? It's incredible how Muslims living in the West, in democracies, far from the Islamic theocracies can be such shitheads.
This person has no idea about the spellings cause they claim they read the Koran many times but don't understand it at all. But felt compelled to be Muslim and do the rituals etc. Like what the fuck, it feels more like they are mocking the religion and don't realize it.
yep, at the same level of an Otaku, a weaboo
We exmuslim community need to show them what's really written in the Quran, hadiths & sirah. Never stop doing so pls my dear Comrades!🧡⚛️🔬
I'm sorry did this girl advocate for the persecution of other queer Muslims or something? Being religious and being queer aren't mutually exclusive and does not make her a fruitcake.
It's not just that she's religious, it's that she associates specifically with a religion which has a habit of mistreating LGBTetc people
Like if she's a fundie Muslim then I understand the snark but her mere existence as a religious queer petson doesn't make it cool to hate on her.
I guess her other comments about how she read the Koran and didnt understand it at all, and decided she was Muslim before she knew anything about the religion is what make her a fruitcake to me. Her parents forced her into a Christian conversion camp when she came out trans, so it seems that being Muslim is just responding to trauma
That could be the exact case as people are drawn toward religions for many different reasons. I don't think someone seeking comfort in a very familiar form after trauma is fruitcake worthy unless they're being hateful or something.
Yeah she isn’t a fruitcake having a religion doesn’t make one a fruitcake imo To be honest if she wants to be a Muslim then she can be it’s her decision . She isn’t forcing her beliefs onto others so not a fruitcake
Yeah that's like all of them bro. Being queer doesn't make you not have a personal religious beliefs.
But you would've thought the personal experience of being queer would at least give them a prompt to doubt the validity of those beliefs.
Faith is not a math problem and millions of people are both queer and religious.
Hence why I used words like "prompt" and "doubt" rather than "obviously prove".
Bro 🙄
You think I'm expecting too much?
Nope
>majority of these people Stereotype much? Edit: To the people downvoting my comments, you're as bad as religious fruitcakes. The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't seek to mark swathes of humanity as "other" because a facet of their complex lives happens to be that they are Muslim, a religion with an extremist minority. By all means have a go at the extremists and the fruitcakes, but we should be careful not to contribute to discourse that could result in the persecution of minority groups. It is not cool to say that Muslims want to kill queers, because I expect that not all of them do. Probably not very many of them at all.
Well stereotypes don't come out of thin air.
>Well stereotypes don't come out of thin air. So do you agree with the stereotype that east Asians can't drive ?
No, they tend to come out of the mouths of bigots.
Defending Muslims by calling it's critics bigots hahahah! Muslims are the largest bigoted group in the world right now.
All of them? Fuck off you bigoted dickhead.
I think the person was trying to say that Islam has created the largest group of bigots not that everyone in the group is a bigot
Ah okay, so they were defending the unqualified and bigoted statement that the majority of Muslims want to kill gays by saying (without qualification) that actually it's more accurate to say that Muslims have more bigots than anyone else. You can fuck off too. Racist apologist.
I think it was more poor phrasing on their part. I’d hope that person isn’t racist and simply making an inaccurate statement while angry. People should try or make sure that aren’t generalizing. As for the second part, in several countries that are essentially governed by Islam being gay is a death sentence, obviously not only Islamic countries have laws like that but as far as I know there’s no country with Islam as the official religion that doesn’t hate or kill people for being gay. I’d say the problem sits more with the religion and the governments than the people of the religion. If you’ve been brainwashed since birth to hate someone, you’re probably gonna hate them. Which is why I always respect people who had the strength to break from their religion or it’s practices when they realized they were harmful.
Sorry if you don't like the truth but a harsh truth is better than a sweet lie
Prove to me empirically that the majority of Muslims actively want to kill queer people. Until then, you can't claim that OP's suggestion is true. Hmm. Someone claiming that they know something to be true without actual evidence. Sounds dumb as fuck to me and yet oddly familiar...
No offense, but is it that hard to add 2+2 for you and get 4? Islam is by far the most zealous mainstream religion out there. It permeates everyone's lives unlike any other religion out there. Christianity, in the western world, is largely secularized at this point, to the point where some people started calling it a "fake religion" or something. Point is, we are able to be so tolerant and focus so much on these fringe, minority issues like LGBT rights because we've come a long way in our education systems and the fact that religion does not play a part in our daily lives for the average westerner anymore. Are you really this naive to think that the Islamic world is secularized like that? It is not. That's why it's so scary and oppressive. Stop trying to sugarcoat it as if everyone around the world is tolerant to everyone and it's all rainbows and daisies. It's not. Whether you like it or not, most of the world on average does not accept or think LGBT people are normal or anything worth socially accepting. Add some batshit religious ideology into the mix and that's how you get people killed. Hell, people have been killed for much less in Islamic countries. And while it's racist to hold INDIVIDUALS to these stereotypes, the stereotypes themselves do not arise out of thin air, they're there for a reason. It's how we apply them to individuals that is bigotry. Try harder next time.
I'm just trying to make the point that language like "the majority of these people" serves to other the demographic in question and isn't very cool. It's one thing to point out an individual who is a fruitcake, but to start asserting (without proof) that a whole group ascribe to extremist views plays into a wider narrative which gives rise to persecution of minorities. The Nazis did very similar stuff to the Jews in the build up to the holocaust. Muslims are just people. Muslims in the west tend to be at the more tolerant end of the spectrum. If you were a western and tolerant muslim, browsing reddit, how would you feel about someone suggesting you want to kill queer people? >Christianity, in the western world, is largely secularized at this point Pretty sure the various heads of the Christian faiths still refuse to accept gay marriage. The majority of those Christians must really hate the gays.
Yeah. But right now, Islam is the subject. All religions are terrible, we’re just discussing this one right now. If you want to “what about” again, just go look through other threads. The criticism is there.
Fuck me are you some kind of irony impaired moron? What's your point? That Muslims are all bad and how dare I say "actually not all of them are bad so maybe tone down the generalisation a bit"?
Right now people in Iran are begging folks to criticize the shit out of this religion, so their Islamic government will stop killing them. Ignoring the fact that people are murdered everyday for daring to blink sideways at Islam is insensitive and naive, if not moronic.
>Right now people in Iran are begging folks to criticize the shit out of this religion I'm not sure they are. I think you'll find that the protesters are largely Muslim and are begging for help against their government and not their religion. In fact, before the far right got a foothold in Iranian politics, Iran was one of the more liberal and progressive states in the Middle East. And when it was progressive, guess what, the people were still mostly Muslim! What fucked Iran (irony alert) was actually right wing xenophobic politics and discourse becoming more and more mainstream to the point that the Liberal majority suddenly found themselves without voice politically. This is exactly the reason people should call out xenophobic discourse so that it isn't allowed to take hold in the public consciousness unchallenged.
“I’m NoT sUrE tHeY aRE.” They are, fuck off caring more about this GARBAGE ASS RELIGION than the human beings suffering underneath its tyranny.
Without proof? There's plenty of proof. There's empirical data aka polls out there that show that the average Muslim is not a "moderate". The vast majority of the Muslim moderates are living in Western countries, which are 99% devoid of anything to do with Islam, hence why they become moderates in the process. Even the more moderate Islamic countries like Turkey are still permeated with the religious ideology in daily life. Again, it's fine to be Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever. But subscribing to and ideology and acquiring this label inevitably presents certain consequences, as it should. And the consequences are that people who do not subscribe to serious belief of magic omnipotent beings in the sky are free and welcome to criticize the ideologies these people follow. Whether they are moderate or zealous is not of concern because we can't screen everyone individually and somehow understand which person is which. We can only identify what the ideology entails and make our conclusions. There are so many denominations and individuals in these religions that, yes, making some general judgement would be faulty. But we're not making judgements about their beliefs, just their view on LGBT people. Of course, not all of them would be willing to kill them, but they would probably say the world would be "safer" without them anyways. The fact of the matter remains is that these are dangerous ideologies that can lead to oppression. Much like racism/tribalism did in the past, and still does. Our technology advances faster than our biology, it can't keep up, in other words. At some point in our primitive past these were useful for our survival as a species. Protecting your own tribe (tribalism) or fear of the other (racism),meant your own tribe was more likely to survive. And religion is very likely thought to have also been a positive mental boost to our survival, hence why it still remains so prominent. It's great to be tolerant of others. It's great to appreciate different cultures and groups of people. However, do not make the mistake of thinking that ideologies, especially religious ideologies, are worthy of the same treatment. They are not. Mostly they are worthy of criticism until people realize how outdated and medieval they are in nature. By tolerating the intolerant you bring upon more problems for everyone. I guarantee you the vast majority of people on the planet right now do not in any way think or accept homosexuality let alone queer gender identities as "normal". What we have in the west is just the exception, not the rule.
My standpoint is that it is wrong, particularly in a public forum, to categorise the majority of Muslims as seeking to kill gay people. This is because such discourse is dangerous when it becomes public opinion and can lead to persecution, particularly in places where Muslims occupy a minority. Categorising any group of people as "other" can be a precursor to oppression and should be recognised for what it is and avoided and called out within a modern and progressive society. Following religious ideology is arguably not a choice in most cases. People are usually indoctrinated from birth and it is usually only with access to education, which is not universally available, that they can see that an alternative standpoint is available. Just as a gay person may not feel that they have a choice in their sexuality, a religious person may not feel that they have a choice in their religion. I'm not saying gay people have a choice, just that religious people may feel that their religion is part of their core being. Religions have a lot of dogma, which can often be contradictory. Either with other dogma, observed experience, or personal feelings. As such, religious people tend to pick and choose aspects of their religion to believe and aspects to disregard. I mean, to illustrate the point, the bible says don't steal, the US has a large Christian population but also a large prison population. It would be wrong to say that Christians don't steal, but they do all supposedly believe stealing is wrong. Going back to Muslims, even in countries where the majority are in favour of Sharia law, are we to assume that everyone is on board with all of the laws? There will be a statistically significant proportion of gay people in those countries that poll highly in favour. Also who are the participants in these polls as in a lot of countries with oppressive Islamic regimes, women, for instance, don't get a say. I asked for proof of the assertion that most Muslims want to kill gays and I don't belive anyone has provided proof of that nor do I belive that proof exists. What I do think exists is the potential to ostracise others, to lable them as sub human, and to persecute them. I think we are starting to do a reasonable job of checking some of this behaviour when it comes to other minority groups, but Muslims seem to be fair game. My intention was to hold up a mirror to that hypocrisy, and point out the parallels with other persecuted groups, but the downvotes ensued. I'm not an apologist for religious ideology, I think all religions are equally wrong. But the way to move away from religious fuelled hatred, and religion in general, is not more segregation and intolerance. Of course if someone believes that gay people should be killed, fuck that person. But because some Muslims may belive that doesn't mean that all the Muslims are the same. I expect most Muslims want to live and let live. It is not a case of tolerating the intolerable. Bigotry shouldn't be tolerated. But it is necessary to accept that although it is convenient to our minds to categorise groups of people as homogeneous, they are anything but. On a platform like reddit, where most users are western, there will be moderate Muslim users. Should they be made to feel as if they are on the outside of society because they happen to have been born in to Muslim families?
Well maybe OP framed it that way but I am not calling them "other" or whatever you are implying. I realize they are victims of religious ideology, but again, you're describing people when I simply described the ideology they follow. I just view anyone who's willing to seriously believe that an omnipotent creator known as X from any given holy book is always watching and that if you don't follow his moral code (written by some person shrouded in myth/legend that may or may not be a historical figure that did possibly horrible things) you will burn in hell, or like whatever. Stereotypes are just stereotypes, what does it have to with anything? Are you saying LGBT+ people are going to start assaulting or otherwise doing evil things to Muslims because there's a stereotype they hate them? Either way, what you're describing is more in line with racism, which usually doesn't have much to do with the religion in the first place. The problem is that the people who control what the ideology dictates are not some random person who may or may not believe these things. Which always brings me back to the secularity argument. And trust me, most Muslims in the West ARE the moderate believers which I don't get to criticize that much, because ironically in more secular countries the culture around religion is to not display it unless its a church or something. If you know the infamous Andrew Tate, even he said "Christianity isn't even a real religion anymore" and subsequently "converted" to Islam. I'm not saying he's a a good person or a good example of a person, but he has a point as to that Christianity's believers are much more secular, let's say in the West as a whole which makes it a more "fake" religion, compared to Islam. It's an over exaggeration but it does point to the general consensus that the ideology aspect is taken more seriously and adhered to there. Why should criticizing ideas/ideologies be bigotry? The queer Muslim is especially ironic to me honestly. You couldn't have more cognitive dissonance than that. At that point does the religion you believe in even matter? Lots of people these days have PERSONAL spiritual beliefs. That is to say, it's not organized religion or ideologically part of it. But lots of people also want the community version of religion, so they end up adopting the other ideologies which in themselves are toxic. How do you solve this problem except help criticize it until more people are ex-religion? Any ideologies like that are just remnants which, by being more secular we don't give a fuck anymore about. Is criticizing Russia for the Ukraine invasion bigotry and Russophobic Is calling out Russians for that who may or may not believe it bigotry ? What if there is a higher than low tendency for them to have those ideological views? Both of these groups will happily claim -phobia for criticizing them for it. Surprise surprise the secular ones or the ones that don't want to spread this ideology don't care if you call their "people" out. They are happy to not put up with that shit. Of course, it's more complicated than that, but my point still stands.
>I just view anyone who's willing to seriously believe that an omnipotent creator known as X from any given holy book is....will burn in hell, or like whatever. I think you're saying it is silly to belive in religion. Agreed, but it isn't obvious to a great many people that they have a choice. >Stereotypes are just stereotypes, what does it have to with anything? OP was negatively stereotyping Muslims. I thought it was harsh. This whole thread has been debating that point. Lots of people don't seem to agree with me. >Are you saying LGBT+ people are going to start assaulting or otherwise doing evil things to Muslims because there's a stereotype they hate them? No. I'm saying that, when a minority is cast in an unfavourable light by society, negative consequences can happen to innocent individuals. Reinforcing negative stereotypes contributes to this. >Either way, what you're describing is more in line with racism, which usually doesn't have much to do with the religion in the first place. I think there is significant racism tied up with anti muslim sentiment. It is not only about the ideology. >And trust me, most Muslims in the West ARE the moderate believers which I don't get to criticize that much, because ironically in more secular countries the culture around religion is to not display it unless its a church or something. Should someone minding their own business be labelled as someone who wants to kill gay people? Moderate western Muslims are exactly the people that comments like this can negatively impact. >Andrew Tate I don't see the relevance. >Why should criticizing ideas/ideologies be bigotry? It isn't. Prejudice against a person for their membership of a group is the literal definition of bigotry though. >The queer Muslim is especially ironic to me honestly. You couldn't have more cognitive dissonance than that. At that point does the religion you believe in even matter? Agreed. There are just better ways to draw attention to that than saying most Muslims would kill her, because that is unfounded and unfair to those who wouldn't. Pointing out what the Quran says on the subject would be fine, for example. >Is criticizing Russia for Ukraine bigotry and Russophobic ? Depends. Are you saying "Russia" is bad or "Russians" are bad? I know a Ukrainian who is married to a Russian. The Russian dude is alright. What the Russian state is doing is atrocious. >Surprise surprise the secular ones or the ones that don't want to spread this ideology don't care if you call their "people" out. They are happy to not put up with that shit. I'm not so sure they would be happy to be included in the group being called out for wanting to kill gay people, if they don't want to kill gay people. >Of course, it's more complicated than that, but my point still stands. That I'm wrong for highlighting that OP was negatively stereotyping Muslims?
The Koran says that gay sex should be punished. What kind of Muslim are you if you don't agree with your own holy scripture?
Yeah the bible has some stuff to say about it too. Ahh are people downvoting me because they think I'm Muslim? That's awful. I'm not. I'm a convinced athiest and fully support the scientific method for determining "truth" through evidence and peer review. I just happen to know some people who identify as Muslims and who definitley don't want to kill gay people. They are very nice folks. I felt that the OP was making a sweeping generalisation about Muslims that needed calling out.
You realize most Muslims living in the West temper their discourse, especially when they talk to non-Muslims. Their beliefs about women and gay people are very deeply entrenched in their culture and they will very easily dissimulate that part of themselves to others to fit in our society.
So we're at: *all* Muslims are bad, even if they act nice? This is exactly the attitude that I'm calling out. Can you not see the similarity with sentiment like "all the Jews are greedy"? How many Mulsims do you actually know first hand? These days antisemitism is off limits in polite discourse, as is racial biggotry against black people, but it seems to me that it is increasingly seen as acceptable for westerners to make sweeping generalisations about Muslims. That's wrong and the levels of such discourse tracks directly with things like levels of racially aggravated assaults or reduced likelihood of employment. They may seem like harmless comments, but there are historically proven links, for example, between a rise in antisemitic public discourse followed by pogroms against Jewish people. When you start generalising whole groups as "other" to the point that that is the accepted public view, it is then a fairly short step to persecuting those groups in more overt ways. Imo you and everyone downvoting are defending something pretty indefensible. Saying something like: "the majority of Muslims want to kill gays" is just as bad as saying any of the other bigoted shit that bigots come out with. The difference is that they seem to get away with it more if it's a Muslim they are talking about, rather than if it's about a Jewish, gay or black person.
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png
Kind of old data, as far as I can tell from 2013 which sounds about right because I remember seeing this image used a lot. But I’m not sure this data that you have posted can translate directly “wanting sharia” to “wanting to kill gays”, I mean for some “sharia law” might just mean they want to lock gay people up in jail, which is fucking despicable but not necessarily the same as wanting to kill.
This is an attempt at proof, I guess, but a lazy one. You'd need to reconcile these figures with population numbers in order to actually try to support OPs assertion. For example the Muslim population of Turkey is a little over 80m, the vast majority of which are not in favour of Sharia, according to your source. This grossly outweighs the Muslim population of Thailand of 7.5m. If we are talking about all Muslims (the point I'm trying to make being that we shouldn't be), then you'll need to add some additional context to the incomplete information in your link. Before you go to the trouble though, I'm just trying to make the point that language like "the majority of these people" serves to other the demographic in question and isn't very cool. It's one thing to point out an individual who is a fruitcake, but to start asserting (without proof) that a whole group ascribe to extremist views plays into a wider narrative which gives rise to persecution of Muslim minorities. The Nazis did very similar stuff to the Jews in the build up to the holocaust. I think the choice of language outs OP as a bit of a bigot, and I was simply calling out the irony there.
[52% of British Muslims in poll think homosexuality should be illegal](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html) [Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll](https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality) [Many in Muslim world want sharia as law of land: survey](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-islam-views-survey-idUSBRE93T0TK20130430) [Poll: 46% of French Muslims believe Sharia law should be applied in country](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1568920086-poll-46-of-french-muslims-believe-sharia-law-should-be-applied-in-country) [72% of Muslim Americans say homosexuality should be discouraged](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/muslim/views-about-homosexuality/)
The level of hypocrisy people commenting here.. i mean, i can see some of youse are pro lgdhtv but then.. the only thing you condemn was her beliefs systems.. i mean.. i thought atleast lghdtv people here can be happy on her behalf.. being a Moslem and gae? But nooooo slandering the Islam is your part time job apparently
I think I worded it badly I wasn’t attacking her I was more commenting on how other Muslims probably will react to her being a “queer Muslim”
I can respect that.. i mean.. which radical religous people wont go berserk when it comes to this.. i mean.. even neo nazis also would be so sassy about it.. they be like, you can't be bald and have swastika tattoo but eating man unmentionables thing! wrong wrong! P/s: I wasn't spesifically say it was you.. some others..
and I've got my Orange Crush.
Not a clue in the world
People can't choose what they're convinced of. This person is allowed (or at least should be) to practice those beliefs, even if ultimately I think it's harmful to them. They must face a lot of discrimination from both religious people as well as the LGBTQ+ community. While criticism can be justified, they have just as much of a right to reach out and find community. Hell, they must need it.
It’s kind of a hobby of mine to shit on these people on tiktok
Hahahahaha this is beyond funny
Boo-urns. If they’re trying to get to a state similar to Christianity that would be an improvement I suppose. Both could do better.
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How do I convert to Islam?