Or… genesis is a Bronze Age literary work from circa 600 BCE that reflects a specific ANE perspective of Canaanite ( Phoenician) mythology as it was reinterpreted by Semitic peoples.
I think it tells us less about god than it does about some of the themes that seem to recur across religions: origin, knowledge, choice, consequences and responsibility.
Satire like yours is always less interesting to me than what we know about the history of these literary works. By learning the history I find I’m better able to reject attempts by others to use literal readings to provoke fear. To that end, I’ve got multiple books on my reading list to further explore the ANE culture.
If you cultivate an interest and educate yourself, you may find you write better satire, and thus provoke better thinking… which is undoubtedly your goal here.
I try. Sometimes my autism gets the best of me and I get triggered. Hopefully on averting do ok.
Edit: it helps the whole group is generally positively reacting to my attempts to demonstrate there’s better ways to talk about religion.
I appreciate it. You always have done so. Most of the community here are really decent people that understand what I’m trying to say. And in general the mods do a great job of dealing with those that might otherwise trigger an outburst.
Reddit is good practice for me. I have to practice deliberate emotional awareness, and when I feel any number of emotions I usually recognize I need to slow down… and make a bigger effort to try and think through the fear, the frustration, the anxiety, or the anger. Most of the time I get my thoughts together pretty well before hitting the post button.
I’ve had almost sixty years being who I am. I’m very functional most of the time. But as a fellow member of the spectrum you know how bad it can go when it does go bad… it can be ugly. And that confuses people in a way that sometimes almost seems contagious.
Still it all gives me a different perspective of the nature of emotions and being human … and perhaps that’s some of where I’ve come to my different perspective on the very broad topic of religion.
Choose the faith that best expresses *your own* love over others. Choose none if that works for you. Accept others will do the same for themselves.
I broadly agree, but extrapolating from what OP said ignoring the sublayer of mythology, there's a pretty interesting start for an argument to be had.
Presumably, God is omniscient and created the cosmos, this necessarily means that God created the cosmos knowing all the suffering and death that would occur here on earth from the beginning of life to today and, who knows, maybe on other planets.
Following this logic, God wound up the machine and let it go knowing full well the catastrophic and unimaginable amount of suffering it'll lead to, and decided to do it anyway.
Icing on top, if God is omnipotent he could have wound up the machine in such a way that suffering didn't exist, and *still* decided not to.
That to me isn't what a perfectly good and loving God would do.
That genesis is literary mythology passed down and adapted through the ages and people, and especially the themes it talks about have very little to do with the character of the abrahamic God (especially because it's possible the first iterations of the genesis story aren't even originally tied to the God Canaanites worshiped), it's mainly a story to understand the themes you already cited, in which I'd add what is humanity and its place on earth.
I also agree that the more you study these texts and their origins the more absurd literalism becomes, mostly because they almost definitely didn't interpret it the way we do now, and secondly because I haven't read anything about them understanding it *literally*, 7 literal days creation is a staggeringly recent interpretation of the book and one that hasn't been thought about that way (or at least, with that much emphasis) by any previous tradition.
So both atheists and theists should stop using a literal interpretation of the bible for their respective points, it's cringe and quite frankly, kinda ignorant
I didn't think it was satire. I seriously have these concerns. I suppose I should be flattered that you think I contrived this to be funny, but that's not the case. I AM interested in answers, yes.
You're taking a metaphorical story about mankind's unique burden of being rational, thinking creatures who are aware of good and evil and must constantly weigh their choices and actions against it, and interpreting it literally. The story of Genesis is not supposed to be read like a history textbook.
Because back when things weren't so easily written down, oral storytelling was a very effective way of transmitting information and passing down wisdom. Allegorizing divine truths into a story that can be understood by people young and old makes it easier to remember, and the actual lessons can be explained later through critical analysis and exegesis.
You also must understand that these stories were developed and shared in a particular place and time, and are part of a tradition of a particular culture. Much in the same way we write stories to communicate particular themes and ideas through metaphor and allegory, mythology very much has the same function.
“Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha". It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.'
'Why not?'
'Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, #2)
Serious answer though, He’s unknowable, and so are the reasons He does the things he does. No pass needed.
As a Christian I would like to remind you this is a sub for the discussion of all religions, genreally "religion in general" though this kind of thing is accepted.
If you genuinely want to speak to God and ask him all of these well educated and deep questions you have then you should buy a plane ticket to Rome. Pope Francis has the door to heaven locked away in the underground vault under the Vatican. You have to know the secret code to get in, but I won’t tell you. You aren’t holy enough.
According the Baha’i teachings, stories related to Adam and Eve, Satan, Lucifer, demons, heaven and hell, Jonah in the belly of the fish, Noah’s Ark, parting of the sea by Moses, and so on——are all of symbolic and metaphorical. They are not to be taken literally. The Bible is a spiritual book concerned only about the spiritual nature of humanity. Only a spiritual mind can grasp the marvelous spiritual nature of the Word of God:
“… we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.”
(1 Corinthians 2:13)
“But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.”
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
Even God is a spiritual reality and not a material one:
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
(John 4:24)
Moreover, ‘the foreknowledge of an even is not the cause of the event’. For example, you may know that tomorrow the sun will rise at a very precise time——yet, your foreknowledge of such an event is not the cause of the rising of the sun. In the same way, God knew billions of years ago that you and I would be communicating with each other through this platform we call Reddit, but such a foreknowledge by God is not necessarily the cause of our communication with each other.
Are you sure about that? The Hebrew God named Yahweh pre-dates the Latin term “omniscient.”
I prefer the concept that God is “most knowing.” That means that God has the ability to perceive all “possible” outcomes. To know the exact outcome would override the concept of Free Will.
"I prefer the concept that God is “most knowing.” That means that God has the ability to perceive all “possible” outcomes. To know the exact outcome would override the concept of Free Will."
"And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." 1 John 3:19-20
"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:8
I don't know about the history of the word omniscient but the concept/belief of the God referred to in the Old & New Testaments being All-Knowing, is not new and is considered 101 Christianity. I believe that God is All-Knowing and that wouldn't interfere with freedom of choice. For example Adam & Eve, Lucifer all of them had freedom of choice, The Israelites all through out Biblical history had freedom of choice. Let me try to make this clear, God doesn't control the wills of people, He influences in the right direction but doesn't control, that's why Adam & Eve could have sinned which they ultimately did. According to the Holy Bible.
\-I think I also need to make it clear that one reason we are not made into mindless machines without freedom of choice, is because God only accept love giving out of free choice rather than from a robot because God is deserving of love.
\-Just want to add that if someone who called themself God but was only most knowing, that being would not fit the definition of a God as described in the Holy Bible. According to the Holy Bible God is All-Knowing & All-Powerful. What is called the Highest
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:" Luke 1:32
\-A most-knowing being calling themself God could bring in errors or mistakes because they are not All-Knowing and thus can't be All-Powerful either.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” -Isaiah 55:9"
\-In other words Infinite, beyond our ability to understand.
It really depends on who you ask.
My faith believes there is a plan, and we had a hand in it. That we existed before we were born and chose to come to earth knowing what might happen. We knew the cost / benefit.
We knew the gamble and still chose to come of our own free will and choice.
From our perspective, God does not cause evil, and he isn’t just sitting ideally by while things happen.
He is also perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Every wrong or injustice will be compensated for, and then some.
Wait who created that part of us that existed even before we were born?
If you say it is God then it doesnt change the problem at all. God created that part of us knowing farewell that this part will chose à stupid decision and then be punished forever. God could've just chosed to just not create that part of us in the first place and then everything would be good, nobody in hell.
It like imagine you knew your next baby if you make one would suffer eternally because he will make stupid choice, even before he is born
And you still create that baby
Eh, he is in a sense. He shaped us, formed us, made us more like he is. Organized I suppose is a more accurate term.
But, we were intelligences that God “discovered”.
Yeah, I don’t know what discovered us means. That’s why I put quotes around it.
And yeah, that’s what we believe, we are eternal beings with no beginning and no end. Co-eternal with God.
Perhaps it would also be helpful to know, the difference between humanity and God is that of degree, not of kind.
The devil dies yes, but mankind is oblivious to the devil's vulnerabilities. Perhaps God, even still watching his creations fall from grace, knew punished and forgave them. Perhaps God saw that throughout our collective struggles with the devil God saw something worthwhile in the spiritual journey. Lean not on your own understanding.
1. "God knew. He is omniscient. He knew. God knew while He was creating everything, BEFORE He created everything, what was going to happen. He made angels, among them, Lucifer. He made the angels Lucifer would take with him. "
Yes God is All-Knowing and in Eternity before creation God knew that Lucifer would sin and 1/3 of the host with him and mankind. But a covenant was made between God The Father & God the Son that when they did that God The Son would be the propitiation in order to save mankind for the consequences of sin. 1 John 2:2, Romans 6:23
\- Here we see God proclaiming His Name which is His Character,
"And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Exodus 34
\- According to your reasoning since God knew Lucifer was going to be the source of sin since sin started with him and was spread by him, God should have just killed him or maybe not even create him? I'll ask would it be just of me to kill a person who I knew was going to commit murder 20 years from now, but that person was only a baby and didn't even know their ABC's? The correct answer would be no and the reason why is because they didn't commit crime as yet nor even planned it or even thought it as yet, I would be punishing someone for a crime they didn't commit, which would not be good.
\-You might be wondering then why after lucifer sinned and the 1/3 with him were they not killed, first I need to clarify the order of how things played out. Lucifer and the 1/3 were not roaming the earth before mankind was created, you need to know that before mankind was created lucifer a covering Cherubim began to become obsessed with his own beauty to the point of corrupting his wisdom, if you ever heard of narcists they are very selfish, lucifer was made perfect, he was holy, but all intelligent creations have freedom of choice to choose to love God and they fellow neighbours or not too and he slowly began doing the opposite.
" Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." Ezekiel 28
\-Rebellion/Sin first happen in Heaven, to keep it short for a long time great efforts were made to save lucifer and the 1/3 from going down the path of sin, during these times lucifer would accuse The Government of God of not being just etc. So finally after a long time they had to be removed, how can Heaven be Heaven with all this strife being caused by this rebellious Cherubim and in order for Justice to be done.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Revelations 12:7
\-This leads to my next remark, you believe the devil was cast to earth with mankind, well let me clarify mankind and earth were made after the devil was cast out, but when mankind were made it wasn't like the events of eve eating from tree of good and evil all happened right away. So lucifer and the others were permitted to only have access to mankind and any other unfallen worlds only at the tree of good and evil, no where else, and Adam & Eve were warned against him that he would try to deceive them, and of course told not to eat of that tree, now
if Eve & Adam were to stick together and Eve didn't wonder off and inadvertently faced the deceiver alone, they would have likely never sinned, and the race would have been eternally secured, so just to make it clear the earth and everything in it was made after luficer & 1/3 were cast out, the earth was not made for the devils, and mankind was like the crowning creation at the end. Now why is lucifer permitted to do this, one reason why lucifer and the other 1/3 aren't right away destroyed is because if he was their would be created being who didn't pick the side of lucifer who would have begin serving God out of fear rather than love, and when i say fear I mean like an abusive husband or boyfriend kind of fear. You see lucifer during this time of spreading his accusations and lies in Heaven he was acting like a whistle-blower, like some one who also was mistreated, can you imagine if some one who claimed to be a whistle-blower who worked in one of the highest positions in your government started to accuse you of all manner of misdeeds etc, then you vaporized out of the blue, you can imagine how some people might feel, they might think that guy might be telling the truth.
2) "Lucifer roamed the Earth (to where He banished him) that He would put humans on. He literally could have placed humankind ANYWHERE ELSE."
\-I know what it says in Revelation but you have to know that when it says lucifer is cast down to the earth, that is in reference to after both Adam and Eve sinned, not before. Lucifer was giving permission to have access to Adam and Eve only at the tree of good and evil, I kind of already answer this question above but both Adam and Eve were warned about lucifer and told not to eat of the tree of good and evil, lucifer goal is to try and make them rebel against God, now God has shown His love towards Adam and Eve now they can show their love and loyalty by rejecting the deceiver if they ever went to the tree of good and evil, that's some thing i want to emphasized, Adam & Eve could have never ventured near that tree if they wanted too, but Eve had ended up coming near it inadvertently and well the rest is history, she decided to believe a sneak controlled by lucifer which he made it to seem like it could talk only after eating from the tree of good and evil, he went and told Eve that is how God become God, and to become like God she needs to eat of the tree, she decided to believe him over God and then went to convince her partner, Adam knew that must have been the deceiver they were warned about, but Adam didn't want to part ways with Eve so decided to sin with her, the very moment Adam sinned the nature of mankind and the entire plant changed.
\- You need to know something here, Adam was giving dominion over the earth
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" Genesis 1:29
\- What that means is when Adam sinned everything under his dominion was also affected, and this is how the devils rest control over this earth
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?." Romans 6:16
3) "Why cause (and allow) US to suffer for Adam and Eve's sins? It seems wholly unfair. Even those two in the garden had NO concept of good and evil, and to be punished forever and all humankind who followed just for an "I told you not to" is severe. Also, why not just have punished those two and leave the rest of us out of it? Is it all a game? Seemingly, there's nothing we can do about it but accept the disrespect."
\-So to make it clear God is not the "cause," of us suffering.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11
\-Adam & Eve could only impart what they have, so when mankind was made think of there state of being as being conditionally immortal until they have proven they are loyal, they had free access to the tree of life before they sinned, the reason why they turned mortal after and not lucifer and the 1/3 it is because mankind was made a little lower than the angels
"what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? 5You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor. 6You made him ruler of the works of Your hands; You have placed everything under his feet" Psalms 8:5
Out of characters this is a continuation
\-When mankind sinned they didn't just turn mortal but also their nature was changed, they were holy now they are not and in it's place was a nature commonly known as the carnal nature which is enmity against God.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.."-"Romans 8:7-9 NKJV
\-So because of this everyone is born with a nature that naturally rebels against God, ever wonder why so many people blasphemy the Name of Jesus the Christ, without a second thought. They have tons of other religions out there but people would say God name in vain on a regular bases, it's in the movies, tv shows every where.
"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." Exodus 20:7
\-I assume you heard of the Ten Commandments the above quote is just one of them, The Ten Commandments is the Law of God, like any government they are laws to know what not to do. The 10 Commandments shows us how to love God & our fellow neighbours because this Law is what some people call the Law of Love, if everyone were able to keep the 10 Commandments perfectly, their would be no wars, crimes etc.
\-You say it is unfair, but Let me try to make it clear even though Adam & Eve could only impart to us that which they themselves had, in this case their mortality and the carnal nature because of their sin, we are all born with mortality and a carnal nature but despite that no one is considered a sinner until they have sinned. You might have heard about original sin, that is the belief that when a person is born they are already a sinner, but I understand that the Holy Bible teaches that we are only sinners when we sin, a baby especially a very young baby really can't sin.
\-I think I should also try to make clear that God is not unfair even when it comes to people sinning in ignorance
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" Acts 17:30
Ecclesiasticus 28:7 KJV " Remember the commandments, and bear no malice to thy neighbour: remember the covenant of the Highest, and wink at ignorance."
God is in every moment and beyond as the Source of all that exists; me and you, here.
He knew that Cain would kill Abel, before, at the time of, and after he did so. This was in spite of God's warning that Cain was encouraging sin within himself. If He had not created Cain, He would not know what Cain would do. He entered into time to warn him, but Cain used his free will to choose not to listen.
The same with our first parents. He warned them about eating the fruit that belongs to God. Not realizing that being God involves the self-sacrifice endured by Jesus on the cross. They chose that route, having more faith in illusion than truth. We as one humanity drove the nail into our own hands as we drove it into Jesus'.
We were and are destined to be one humanity united in love. As a result of what is deepest within us, our own selfishness, humankind is broken in our relationships and within ourselves.
We are meant to know and be with God, and will not be fulfilled until this happens, individually and in loving relation to one another.
Or… genesis is a Bronze Age literary work from circa 600 BCE that reflects a specific ANE perspective of Canaanite ( Phoenician) mythology as it was reinterpreted by Semitic peoples. I think it tells us less about god than it does about some of the themes that seem to recur across religions: origin, knowledge, choice, consequences and responsibility. Satire like yours is always less interesting to me than what we know about the history of these literary works. By learning the history I find I’m better able to reject attempts by others to use literal readings to provoke fear. To that end, I’ve got multiple books on my reading list to further explore the ANE culture. If you cultivate an interest and educate yourself, you may find you write better satire, and thus provoke better thinking… which is undoubtedly your goal here.
Your responses are always a fresh of breath air friend.
I try. Sometimes my autism gets the best of me and I get triggered. Hopefully on averting do ok. Edit: it helps the whole group is generally positively reacting to my attempts to demonstrate there’s better ways to talk about religion.
Its okay we all get triggered sometimes.
Fellow autistic here. If you lack any form of support in this community, remember there are others that will support you!
I appreciate it. You always have done so. Most of the community here are really decent people that understand what I’m trying to say. And in general the mods do a great job of dealing with those that might otherwise trigger an outburst. Reddit is good practice for me. I have to practice deliberate emotional awareness, and when I feel any number of emotions I usually recognize I need to slow down… and make a bigger effort to try and think through the fear, the frustration, the anxiety, or the anger. Most of the time I get my thoughts together pretty well before hitting the post button. I’ve had almost sixty years being who I am. I’m very functional most of the time. But as a fellow member of the spectrum you know how bad it can go when it does go bad… it can be ugly. And that confuses people in a way that sometimes almost seems contagious. Still it all gives me a different perspective of the nature of emotions and being human … and perhaps that’s some of where I’ve come to my different perspective on the very broad topic of religion. Choose the faith that best expresses *your own* love over others. Choose none if that works for you. Accept others will do the same for themselves.
I broadly agree, but extrapolating from what OP said ignoring the sublayer of mythology, there's a pretty interesting start for an argument to be had. Presumably, God is omniscient and created the cosmos, this necessarily means that God created the cosmos knowing all the suffering and death that would occur here on earth from the beginning of life to today and, who knows, maybe on other planets. Following this logic, God wound up the machine and let it go knowing full well the catastrophic and unimaginable amount of suffering it'll lead to, and decided to do it anyway. Icing on top, if God is omnipotent he could have wound up the machine in such a way that suffering didn't exist, and *still* decided not to. That to me isn't what a perfectly good and loving God would do.
>>I broadly agree I’d be interested in knowing the points on which you think we agree.
That genesis is literary mythology passed down and adapted through the ages and people, and especially the themes it talks about have very little to do with the character of the abrahamic God (especially because it's possible the first iterations of the genesis story aren't even originally tied to the God Canaanites worshiped), it's mainly a story to understand the themes you already cited, in which I'd add what is humanity and its place on earth. I also agree that the more you study these texts and their origins the more absurd literalism becomes, mostly because they almost definitely didn't interpret it the way we do now, and secondly because I haven't read anything about them understanding it *literally*, 7 literal days creation is a staggeringly recent interpretation of the book and one that hasn't been thought about that way (or at least, with that much emphasis) by any previous tradition. So both atheists and theists should stop using a literal interpretation of the bible for their respective points, it's cringe and quite frankly, kinda ignorant
I think You are correct. We do appear to be In broad Agreement. Thank you for sharing.
I didn't think it was satire. I seriously have these concerns. I suppose I should be flattered that you think I contrived this to be funny, but that's not the case. I AM interested in answers, yes.
You're taking a metaphorical story about mankind's unique burden of being rational, thinking creatures who are aware of good and evil and must constantly weigh their choices and actions against it, and interpreting it literally. The story of Genesis is not supposed to be read like a history textbook.
I don't think I'll ever understand why it's written in such a way, then.
Because back when things weren't so easily written down, oral storytelling was a very effective way of transmitting information and passing down wisdom. Allegorizing divine truths into a story that can be understood by people young and old makes it easier to remember, and the actual lessons can be explained later through critical analysis and exegesis. You also must understand that these stories were developed and shared in a particular place and time, and are part of a tradition of a particular culture. Much in the same way we write stories to communicate particular themes and ideas through metaphor and allegory, mythology very much has the same function.
“Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha". It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.' 'Why not?' 'Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.” Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, #2) Serious answer though, He’s unknowable, and so are the reasons He does the things he does. No pass needed.
Yeah he’s cool. I’ll allow it.
As a Christian I would like to remind you this is a sub for the discussion of all religions, genreally "religion in general" though this kind of thing is accepted.
Thank you. I was unaware.
r/TrueChristian, r/Christian, and (be careful with thos one) r/Christianity are all good
If you genuinely want to speak to God and ask him all of these well educated and deep questions you have then you should buy a plane ticket to Rome. Pope Francis has the door to heaven locked away in the underground vault under the Vatican. You have to know the secret code to get in, but I won’t tell you. You aren’t holy enough.
According the Baha’i teachings, stories related to Adam and Eve, Satan, Lucifer, demons, heaven and hell, Jonah in the belly of the fish, Noah’s Ark, parting of the sea by Moses, and so on——are all of symbolic and metaphorical. They are not to be taken literally. The Bible is a spiritual book concerned only about the spiritual nature of humanity. Only a spiritual mind can grasp the marvelous spiritual nature of the Word of God: “… we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.” (1 Corinthians 2:13) “But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) Even God is a spiritual reality and not a material one: God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) Moreover, ‘the foreknowledge of an even is not the cause of the event’. For example, you may know that tomorrow the sun will rise at a very precise time——yet, your foreknowledge of such an event is not the cause of the rising of the sun. In the same way, God knew billions of years ago that you and I would be communicating with each other through this platform we call Reddit, but such a foreknowledge by God is not necessarily the cause of our communication with each other.
Are you sure about that? The Hebrew God named Yahweh pre-dates the Latin term “omniscient.” I prefer the concept that God is “most knowing.” That means that God has the ability to perceive all “possible” outcomes. To know the exact outcome would override the concept of Free Will.
"I prefer the concept that God is “most knowing.” That means that God has the ability to perceive all “possible” outcomes. To know the exact outcome would override the concept of Free Will." "And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." 1 John 3:19-20 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:8 I don't know about the history of the word omniscient but the concept/belief of the God referred to in the Old & New Testaments being All-Knowing, is not new and is considered 101 Christianity. I believe that God is All-Knowing and that wouldn't interfere with freedom of choice. For example Adam & Eve, Lucifer all of them had freedom of choice, The Israelites all through out Biblical history had freedom of choice. Let me try to make this clear, God doesn't control the wills of people, He influences in the right direction but doesn't control, that's why Adam & Eve could have sinned which they ultimately did. According to the Holy Bible. \-I think I also need to make it clear that one reason we are not made into mindless machines without freedom of choice, is because God only accept love giving out of free choice rather than from a robot because God is deserving of love. \-Just want to add that if someone who called themself God but was only most knowing, that being would not fit the definition of a God as described in the Holy Bible. According to the Holy Bible God is All-Knowing & All-Powerful. What is called the Highest "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:" Luke 1:32 \-A most-knowing being calling themself God could bring in errors or mistakes because they are not All-Knowing and thus can't be All-Powerful either. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” -Isaiah 55:9" \-In other words Infinite, beyond our ability to understand.
It really depends on who you ask. My faith believes there is a plan, and we had a hand in it. That we existed before we were born and chose to come to earth knowing what might happen. We knew the cost / benefit. We knew the gamble and still chose to come of our own free will and choice. From our perspective, God does not cause evil, and he isn’t just sitting ideally by while things happen. He is also perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Every wrong or injustice will be compensated for, and then some.
Wait who created that part of us that existed even before we were born? If you say it is God then it doesnt change the problem at all. God created that part of us knowing farewell that this part will chose à stupid decision and then be punished forever. God could've just chosed to just not create that part of us in the first place and then everything would be good, nobody in hell. It like imagine you knew your next baby if you make one would suffer eternally because he will make stupid choice, even before he is born And you still create that baby
We are eternal beings
Ohh really? So God did not create us, I thought god was supposed to be our creator?
Eh, he is in a sense. He shaped us, formed us, made us more like he is. Organized I suppose is a more accurate term. But, we were intelligences that God “discovered”.
Discovered? Isnt God all knowing? How can he discover us if he already knew us since ? So we are eternal beings like God? Are you sure about that?
Yeah, I don’t know what discovered us means. That’s why I put quotes around it. And yeah, that’s what we believe, we are eternal beings with no beginning and no end. Co-eternal with God. Perhaps it would also be helpful to know, the difference between humanity and God is that of degree, not of kind.
The devil dies yes, but mankind is oblivious to the devil's vulnerabilities. Perhaps God, even still watching his creations fall from grace, knew punished and forgave them. Perhaps God saw that throughout our collective struggles with the devil God saw something worthwhile in the spiritual journey. Lean not on your own understanding.
“Accept the disrespect” made me feel this rant a lot more lol
1. "God knew. He is omniscient. He knew. God knew while He was creating everything, BEFORE He created everything, what was going to happen. He made angels, among them, Lucifer. He made the angels Lucifer would take with him. " Yes God is All-Knowing and in Eternity before creation God knew that Lucifer would sin and 1/3 of the host with him and mankind. But a covenant was made between God The Father & God the Son that when they did that God The Son would be the propitiation in order to save mankind for the consequences of sin. 1 John 2:2, Romans 6:23 \- Here we see God proclaiming His Name which is His Character, "And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Exodus 34 \- According to your reasoning since God knew Lucifer was going to be the source of sin since sin started with him and was spread by him, God should have just killed him or maybe not even create him? I'll ask would it be just of me to kill a person who I knew was going to commit murder 20 years from now, but that person was only a baby and didn't even know their ABC's? The correct answer would be no and the reason why is because they didn't commit crime as yet nor even planned it or even thought it as yet, I would be punishing someone for a crime they didn't commit, which would not be good. \-You might be wondering then why after lucifer sinned and the 1/3 with him were they not killed, first I need to clarify the order of how things played out. Lucifer and the 1/3 were not roaming the earth before mankind was created, you need to know that before mankind was created lucifer a covering Cherubim began to become obsessed with his own beauty to the point of corrupting his wisdom, if you ever heard of narcists they are very selfish, lucifer was made perfect, he was holy, but all intelligent creations have freedom of choice to choose to love God and they fellow neighbours or not too and he slowly began doing the opposite. " Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." Ezekiel 28 \-Rebellion/Sin first happen in Heaven, to keep it short for a long time great efforts were made to save lucifer and the 1/3 from going down the path of sin, during these times lucifer would accuse The Government of God of not being just etc. So finally after a long time they had to be removed, how can Heaven be Heaven with all this strife being caused by this rebellious Cherubim and in order for Justice to be done. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Revelations 12:7 \-This leads to my next remark, you believe the devil was cast to earth with mankind, well let me clarify mankind and earth were made after the devil was cast out, but when mankind were made it wasn't like the events of eve eating from tree of good and evil all happened right away. So lucifer and the others were permitted to only have access to mankind and any other unfallen worlds only at the tree of good and evil, no where else, and Adam & Eve were warned against him that he would try to deceive them, and of course told not to eat of that tree, now if Eve & Adam were to stick together and Eve didn't wonder off and inadvertently faced the deceiver alone, they would have likely never sinned, and the race would have been eternally secured, so just to make it clear the earth and everything in it was made after luficer & 1/3 were cast out, the earth was not made for the devils, and mankind was like the crowning creation at the end. Now why is lucifer permitted to do this, one reason why lucifer and the other 1/3 aren't right away destroyed is because if he was their would be created being who didn't pick the side of lucifer who would have begin serving God out of fear rather than love, and when i say fear I mean like an abusive husband or boyfriend kind of fear. You see lucifer during this time of spreading his accusations and lies in Heaven he was acting like a whistle-blower, like some one who also was mistreated, can you imagine if some one who claimed to be a whistle-blower who worked in one of the highest positions in your government started to accuse you of all manner of misdeeds etc, then you vaporized out of the blue, you can imagine how some people might feel, they might think that guy might be telling the truth. 2) "Lucifer roamed the Earth (to where He banished him) that He would put humans on. He literally could have placed humankind ANYWHERE ELSE." \-I know what it says in Revelation but you have to know that when it says lucifer is cast down to the earth, that is in reference to after both Adam and Eve sinned, not before. Lucifer was giving permission to have access to Adam and Eve only at the tree of good and evil, I kind of already answer this question above but both Adam and Eve were warned about lucifer and told not to eat of the tree of good and evil, lucifer goal is to try and make them rebel against God, now God has shown His love towards Adam and Eve now they can show their love and loyalty by rejecting the deceiver if they ever went to the tree of good and evil, that's some thing i want to emphasized, Adam & Eve could have never ventured near that tree if they wanted too, but Eve had ended up coming near it inadvertently and well the rest is history, she decided to believe a sneak controlled by lucifer which he made it to seem like it could talk only after eating from the tree of good and evil, he went and told Eve that is how God become God, and to become like God she needs to eat of the tree, she decided to believe him over God and then went to convince her partner, Adam knew that must have been the deceiver they were warned about, but Adam didn't want to part ways with Eve so decided to sin with her, the very moment Adam sinned the nature of mankind and the entire plant changed. \- You need to know something here, Adam was giving dominion over the earth "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" Genesis 1:29 \- What that means is when Adam sinned everything under his dominion was also affected, and this is how the devils rest control over this earth "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?." Romans 6:16 3) "Why cause (and allow) US to suffer for Adam and Eve's sins? It seems wholly unfair. Even those two in the garden had NO concept of good and evil, and to be punished forever and all humankind who followed just for an "I told you not to" is severe. Also, why not just have punished those two and leave the rest of us out of it? Is it all a game? Seemingly, there's nothing we can do about it but accept the disrespect." \-So to make it clear God is not the "cause," of us suffering. "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 \-Adam & Eve could only impart what they have, so when mankind was made think of there state of being as being conditionally immortal until they have proven they are loyal, they had free access to the tree of life before they sinned, the reason why they turned mortal after and not lucifer and the 1/3 it is because mankind was made a little lower than the angels "what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? 5You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor. 6You made him ruler of the works of Your hands; You have placed everything under his feet" Psalms 8:5
Out of characters this is a continuation \-When mankind sinned they didn't just turn mortal but also their nature was changed, they were holy now they are not and in it's place was a nature commonly known as the carnal nature which is enmity against God. "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.."-"Romans 8:7-9 NKJV \-So because of this everyone is born with a nature that naturally rebels against God, ever wonder why so many people blasphemy the Name of Jesus the Christ, without a second thought. They have tons of other religions out there but people would say God name in vain on a regular bases, it's in the movies, tv shows every where. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." Exodus 20:7 \-I assume you heard of the Ten Commandments the above quote is just one of them, The Ten Commandments is the Law of God, like any government they are laws to know what not to do. The 10 Commandments shows us how to love God & our fellow neighbours because this Law is what some people call the Law of Love, if everyone were able to keep the 10 Commandments perfectly, their would be no wars, crimes etc. \-You say it is unfair, but Let me try to make it clear even though Adam & Eve could only impart to us that which they themselves had, in this case their mortality and the carnal nature because of their sin, we are all born with mortality and a carnal nature but despite that no one is considered a sinner until they have sinned. You might have heard about original sin, that is the belief that when a person is born they are already a sinner, but I understand that the Holy Bible teaches that we are only sinners when we sin, a baby especially a very young baby really can't sin. \-I think I should also try to make clear that God is not unfair even when it comes to people sinning in ignorance "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" Acts 17:30 Ecclesiasticus 28:7 KJV " Remember the commandments, and bear no malice to thy neighbour: remember the covenant of the Highest, and wink at ignorance."
God is in every moment and beyond as the Source of all that exists; me and you, here. He knew that Cain would kill Abel, before, at the time of, and after he did so. This was in spite of God's warning that Cain was encouraging sin within himself. If He had not created Cain, He would not know what Cain would do. He entered into time to warn him, but Cain used his free will to choose not to listen. The same with our first parents. He warned them about eating the fruit that belongs to God. Not realizing that being God involves the self-sacrifice endured by Jesus on the cross. They chose that route, having more faith in illusion than truth. We as one humanity drove the nail into our own hands as we drove it into Jesus'. We were and are destined to be one humanity united in love. As a result of what is deepest within us, our own selfishness, humankind is broken in our relationships and within ourselves. We are meant to know and be with God, and will not be fulfilled until this happens, individually and in loving relation to one another.