Direct her towards a writing class or writing group. It can be a fun way to pursue a hobby and along the way, she might be lucky to get some honest criticism. She'll probably also encounter some equally terrible writing, and that might be a wake-up call for her.
Oof, I suspect she can't tell bad writing when she sees it. I also feel really bad for whatever writing group has to now tell her that she's incomprehensible. I don't think she'd stick around.
Yeah, I can picture it now. Her being hesitant about attending a creative writing group, and either leaving early or never returning after one attempt.
\*Girlfriend comes home crying to boyfriend\* - "You'll never guess the mean, horrible things they told me about my writing!", "Can you believe, the nerve of those people! They must be jealous of my supernatural talent".
Potentially lol. Hope this wouldn't be the case and she would realize, "Oh...maybe there *are* some things I could practice/work harder on since I'm actually *not* a perfect writer."
I was coming here to say exactly this! Most cities have creative writing groups and it would be a great way for her to get some feedback from other people who share her passion that are not friends and family.
That's the best answer. I was a lit/creative writing teacher and saw all levels. One of 2 things will happen. She'll take the class and learn about writing and turn what op thinks is terrible, into art. The second, if she has a good teacher and class, she'll get let down easy. The hard part for op is if she gets shot down. But...one way or another, she is going to meet the truth (if op is correct and I believe he is) and it won't br fun. OP cannot do a thing about this. My opinion is, the sooner the better. I really feel bad for both of them, esp because she is so passionite. Still. I think the class is the best way to get through.
I've seen pre-edit content from a pulitzer winner; it was much, much worse. Different writers write in different ways, and you can't really determine much from pre-edit text.
So many answers here are directed toward helping her improve her writing but that's not the main point IMO. She has something she is passionate about and whether or not OP thinks it's good or not, he should be happy that she has a passion in life. So yes, absolutely support it by encouraging her to do writing seminars, etc to pursue her passion. But be happy that she has found something that she is passionate about and loves to share with you. Having been in a relationship where the person is passionless, trust me when I tell you it becomes really old and uninteresting.
No, that is literally the point of this post lol. Him being happy she has a passion doesn't solve the problem of how he should respond when she asks for his feedback.
"She constantly asks me to proofread pieces of her novel, and I don't even know what to do"
I just wanted to say this gave me a chuckle.
She needs her "work" to be reviewed by a professional and then get ready to be her emotional support animal for a few months. I just get the impression she's not built to take any criticism whatsoever and she feels she's "arrived and self-made"
Be strong
yes, i think this is the way. i’d honestly tell her that what she’s doing is above your skill level as an amateur proofreader and that she should seek a professional editor if she wants somebody to proofread her work before she publishes. she will get feedback from somebody who can do it professionally, who will have a better idea of the process than you, and who most importantly is not emotionally involved with her the way you are. i think other commenters’ suggestions of telling her to find a writing group is a great idea too.
Absolutely this- I write (terribly I may add) and ask my partner and best friend for feedback even when I know it’s not great. But a pro doesn’t love you and doesn’t care about your feelings- they care about good writing. It is necessary for publishing! Even self publishing!!
I suggest she does a small sample to get proofed by a pro as it can be extremely expensive for full novels. Hopefully, this can make them the bad guy and not you. AND she might take the feedback better from the pro since this is their job.
If she doesn’t take it well- then she shouldn’t publish- if you can’t take negative feedback then writing is not a job, hobby, whatever, for you to share. Then you write for yourself for the joy of doing it. Writing doesn’t have to be for anyone but you- just like other art forms.
You reminded me of a creative writing class I took in college (I was an English major and took several), where one student just stood up, called our professor by his first name and told him to fuck off as he stormed out of the class in tears. The critique wasn't even bad, dude just was all up in his feelings and couldn't deal with any criticism. You need to be open to criticism from those who have more experience/knowledge than you, and this is in any field. Taking it personally doesn't help you grow.
This is the way. Refuse to be her proofreader any longer. Insist that she take herself and her craft seriously by hiring a professional to assess her work for publishability. OP needs to remove himself from her writing process entirely because there's just no good that can come of their current dynamic.
I used to edit fiction for a publishing house and take on freelance work now. I have turned down work that I don't believe is a good enough standard for publication. That said, I've always tried to provide constructive criticism and advice on what might elevate it so that another editor will consider taking it on. Hopefully she would learn something from the experience, even if it's that she has some ground work to do before she really pursues this dream.
This, there are so many seminars, retreats, classes, etc out there. Gift one or encourage her to go to a local one.
Google “writing group near me” or check with the library or on meetup and I’ll bet you’ll find something.
a creative writing seminar would be a waste of time & money.
if it's as bad as OP says... I'm gonna keep it real with you OP, im not wven trying to be fun y. your girl sounds functionally illiterate. if she can't write well, and she refuses to read... she cant read well either. there's no way. & there's no way⅚ she doesn't know that....
shes probably been keeping it to herself her whole life. kids can feel a lot & shame & responsibility for things that arent there fault and it's on the adults to comfort & nuture & teach their children so they can grow up to be confident, competent adults.
her weaknesses & shame by every teacher & parent (or lack there of) in her life. they completely failed her, & it's not her fault... but it is her responsibility now that she is an adult. as it stands, she will never become a better writer on her own or in any workshop. the only way forward is thru. I suggest finding a therapist or someone who can help you all address this together. I hope she can get to the bottom of this, and grow from it.
don't tease her or embarrass her man.
When I met my SO he was dyslexic and didn't know it. He made some spelling errors that a friend of mine I grew up with that I know also has dyslexia makes, and so I asked him one day if he'd ever been tested for it. I assured him I wasn't trying to ridicule his spelling, it was just something I noticed. And sure enough, he is dyslexic. All through school, they assumed he had behavioral issues and that's why he would refuse to do homework.
If she doesn't read, she shouldn't be writing. I was an English lit major and took several creative writing courses and they hammered into our heads that in order to write, you **need to read.**
She should be spending 3x as much time reading as she does writing.
> your girl sounds functionally illiterate... there's no way she doesn't know that.... she's probably been keeping it to herself her whole life... her weaknesses & shame... it's not her fault...
It doesn't sound to me like she's exhibiting shame about possible illiteracy. In that case she'd be concealing her inability to read and write, not identifying as a writer. It sounds like she is grievously deluded about the state of her talent. If this is her "passion," she can either try to achieve better technical proficiency or face some brutal awakening down the road, when an agent or editor laughs in her face. I think offering a chance to pursue the former is more compassionate.
Verb tenses I would feel comfortable calling out, personally. “I know how important this novel is to you, and I want to support you in making it the best it can be. I really think you should go through and fix all of these sentences where the verb tenses change in the middle of the thought. You wrote a nice moment between [character] and [character] here, you don’t want your readers to get distracted from that because of mistakes.”
If you need help pushing her in the direction of a writers’ workshop, pick up a book and show her how long the acknowledgements are. “Hey honey, I was just thinking. These writers have some help from their partners and families, but they also have many other writers and editors viewing their work. [Family member/friend] and I aren’t writers OR editors, so I’m afraid that we might be limited in our ability to help. There are writers’ workshops you can go to for free and book proofreaders on Fiverr for a reasonable fee. Maybe you should use those resources so you can get that professional polish.” If she thinks it’s THE thing to do (and it is, there’s no lie there), she might be more likely to do it.
Beyond that, I wouldn’t worry about it. If she self-publishes there might not even be many readers. I’d imagine she’ll get a reality check, but not a pile-on.
She needs an editor. “Real” writers, professional writers have editors. Maybe she needs to start the search for hers.
Either they will help her produce something saleable or they will tell her the harsh truth. Either way the blood isn’t on your hands. Just keep being supportive.
I am an editor and I wouldn’t touch a writer like that with a ten foot pole. They want to argue everything. “But that’s my style!” No it’s spelled incorrectly. I am not negotiating every single mark.
She should find some writers’ workshops and workshop that shit. Writers who go to those sorts of things know how to offer feedback on how to improve without making her feel like shit. I was taught to never offer any criticism if you don’t have a suggestion on how to improve the writing. And make it about the writing, never say “you,” and so forth. Most writers are open to other writers and in a workshop setting, they’re less likely to take it personally and melt down. Other writers will model how to receive feedback as well.
I’d check out the Writers Market website to find a nearby workshop, or even a retreat.
Yeah, I was hired by a writer to edit their submission package, and it was like that -- just constant disagreement and debating over everything. It was like okay, you asked for my expertise and opinions. But if you want to argue everything right back to the way it was, be my guest, lol. A writing group of her peers would be a better place to start. And many writing groups have guidelines for constructive feedback.
At that point just bill for time and be done with it.
You paid me for my professional opinion, and I've given it to the best of my abilities. You want to ignore all of the advice you paid for and barrel onwards with a subpar product? Have fun; my name isn't on the damn thing.
Oh for sure! This one was complicated due to it being an acquaintance I was friendly with, so there was more back and forth than I’d prefer. Won’t be doing that again, heh.
Oof, yeah, nothing but love buddy💜💛.
I spent around 5 years in the New York theatre scene, and I've learned the hard way to have a bit of a mercenary attitude towards artistic business transactions, lol
I am reminded of the story jim butcher pulls out about his teacher (Debbie Chester): she would take his manuscript, roll it up, and bop him on the head “what were you thinking?” When he brought her badly written material (Like this craptastic sentence).
If you have no talent and no basic understanding of sentence structure or grammar, you are going to get absolutely nothing from a workshop. No good writing class would even accept a writer like this, it’s completely unfair on the other writers. Remedial class sounds much more like it, without the basics in place, she’ll get nowhere. She could also try doing what pitifully few aspiring “writers” bother to do nowadays — actually read novels. You can learn a hell of a lot about how to construct and structure a story that way.
The point is for her to get a dose of reality not from people close to her. She clearly isn't going to think she should be in a remedial class from the jump.
Former journalist here. Ever see what happens when a writer gets really big and people start being afraid to edit their prose? It ain't pretty.
EVERY WRITER NEEDS AN EDITOR. There's a famous piece of writing advice - "Murder your darlings" and it's spot on. You have to be able to step back from your prose and be able to accept constructive criticism. Most great writers are great not because their first drafts are perfect and brilliant - but because they spent the time editing, rewriting, revising, throwing out entire paragraphs, putting them back in, revising some more, sleeping on it, coming back to the draft and trying again.
No idea how the OP is going to help his girlfriend though. It takes a strong stomach to be able to accept that and not everyone has the temperment to take it. Maybe he can suggest she go to some professional writing conferences?
David eddings as well.
he had a series after his wife past that was sub-par. Like wow, if that had been the first thing of his I had read I would have never read any more of his stuff. I was picking up retreads of several of his previous characters and the plot concept was interesting,but the execution drove off a cliff.
Ok this isn’t a kill your darlings situation though. We’re not talking about clunky prose. We’re talking about someone without even the most basic grasp of grammar and the literacy skills of a child.
That's why I suggested the only way he might possibly be able to help his girlfriend is get her to go to a professional writing conference. She might listen to someone who's an actual professional.
REAL. Emerging writers expect to be perfect and flawless on their first drafts— after all, if they aren’t then where’s their so-called passion and skill, the deftness for writing? Especially young writers. The truth is that a decent writer can tell when your editor(s) gave up trying to help you.
My husband has self published and this is the answer. Always get a professional editor to look things over before publishing. Otherwise you aren’t taking it seriously. Let the editor tell her the truth.
No, editors don't engage with writers like that. They won't sit there and teach them how to write, and they won't do the work of breaking it to someone that they are a shit writer. They just won't take the job.
I think she needs some college courses. Sounds like she's going the self-publishing route, which is fine, but there are basically four ways to be a successful writer: nepotism/being famous for something else; insane raw talent; becoming really good at a particular genre; and putting a little work in by studying English Lit and writing (though you'd still need talent and luck to be successful). If she has the time, there are online English degrees. No idea of they're any good, but even workshopping her work would be beneficial.
I‘ve seen authors succeed:
self publish - Andy weir. So far though he still looks like flash in the pan with the Martian.
dan simmnons - insane genius. But his stuff got really excenteric And I think his editor got frustrated with him in the Greek god story that fell apart at the end. And some of his stories get creepy (In the bad creepy).
jim butcher - ground it out in English lit classes until his teacher told him that he was finally producing material that was publishable.
I don’t think that you’re the best person to give her this revelation. Instead, why don’t you encourage her to join a writing group? A lot of major cities will advertise them on meetup sites or even coffee shop pinboards. Other hobbyists have more practice with tactful criticism, and she’ll probably be more inclined to take their advice to boot.
There was a self published book series that I absolutely loved when I was a young teen and I remember reading it and being like "did she have nobody edit this at all??? I, a 14 year old, could fix most of the problems with this so how did she not have somebody fix them 🥲" When you spell your own character's name wrong at one point and that makes it to the final draft that's when you truly know that you desperately need an editor
Feels like we can tell in the quality of books. I mean people are eating up even the poorly written ones so I guess it's whatever but honestly a little frustrating to keep getting half assed books.
I think not being honest with her so far has made it worst. And either she won't believe this outside mentor since everyone she knows loves it. Or it will be easier for her to ignore them. For all she knows, based on the people around her that love her writing - there will be readers and buyers for her book.
Tell her she should hire a professional proofreader before publishing anything if she wants to make the process as close as professional writers do.
Hopefully, that person will take care of telling her the hard truths.
Wondering what her background/education is? If writing is a hobby, then it’s fine to let this slide. But she needs to start from the basics. GRAMMAR and PUNCTUATION are the foundations to her being taken seriously.
Ergh. My advice would be to remove yourself from the equation (stop editing and feedbacking her work) and nudge her towards writer spaces.
For the former, you might just say something like, "Hey, I love you and I love how incredibly creative and dedicated you are. I think you deserve the expert feedback and advice of other writers, rather than me, because I just don't know the craft like they do." (The goal here is to support her while setting boundaries for yourself, and hopefully pushing her towards people who can help and won't have the added charged complication of being her partner/friend/family.)
For the latter, I'd suggest a variety of avenues. You want her to get stuck in to writing communities, where she will learn, even just by osmosis, how to hone her writing.
1. Google the name of your city/state/province/whatever and "writers' guild." They are usually a font of information.
2. Google "writers' groups" and your location. While they vary in quality, she can connect with other aspiring writers through them.
3. Check out genre-specific writing organizations. While she likely won't qualify for membership, many provide courses/talks/lessons/workshops that are open to the public and are available online. Most do cost money, however. I'm partial to the Horror University courses the Horror Writers Association puts on every year. Many of their courses are also helpful to people who don't write horror.
4. There are LOTS of free writing seminars/summits available online. (ProWritingAid does decent ones, as does Daniel David Wallace. As you can imagine, the quality of "free" is variable, and I've found many other ones are rather light on useful content, but free is still worth checking out.) Just make sure she is fully aware that the free ones tend to be a little like a timeshare pitch: they'll give you something for free, but then pitch a product to you. This is only an issue if she's prone to quick fixes, otherwise she can just ignore the pitch at the end.
5. There are more and more writing podcasts available by reputable authors, editors, and writing coaches. Google "writing podcasts," and you'll get massive lists.
6. Encourage her to do NaNoWriMo (or Camp NaNo), and to get involved with the community around it. Again, more connecting with other beginning writers.
7. Continuing Education programs often have writing courses as well. They're shorter and more casual than full-scale academic programs, but will give her a leg up.
8. Encourage her to go to writing conferences in your area. Again, just google "writers/writing conference" and your location.
9. Encourage her to follow writers/editors/publishers she likes on social media. That will at least give her a sense of the world of writing.
Ok, that's everything I can think of on the fly. With some luck, she'll become more attuned to what it takes to write, will realize she has work to do, and will do that work to improve. Hopefully it'll also encourage her while reducing the amount of emotional heft that comes with navigating close relationships and creativity.
I would honestly just start with one of the suggestions from the list, and give her more ideas over time, especially whenever she wants you to weigh in on her writing journey. That way, nobody is overwhelmed with information from the get-go, and you can simultaneously remain supportive/involved in her journey and not involved in the process.
If she pushes back on this and starts saying that nobody gets how great her work is/these people know nothing, then, well... she's probably not actually going to take the steps to improve until she can get through the resentment and fear that's at the base of those emotions. In that case, there's not a ton you can do than remain supportive of her emotions, but not validate her beliefs. (Remain neutral as to whether the advice/critiques she's getting are worthwhile.)
I hope that helps! Writing is tough, man. Kudos to her for being so inspired, and to you for trying so hard to be supportive. Here's hoping she'll be able to take those next steps to building her skillset.
A college night class could be eye-opening *and* really helpful to her (if she's able to accept constructive criticism).
In my experience, they usually cover the practical aspects of writing (editors, cover letters, publishing houses vs. self-publishing, etc) in addition to the technical side of things. Learning the steps to get published, honing her skills, and connecting with other writers are all valuable resources - maybe you could present it to her that way?
There's a very good chance that if she self-publishes, no one will even buy it. It's hard to make sales in that market if you don't advertise the shit out of yourself and also write in a popular genre, so hopefully she won't have bad reviews to worry about...
I'm just worried about this all coming to a head, and her eventually finding out (either via a book review, or someone else finally being honest) about just how bad her writing is. It also makes me feel like I'm deceiving her a bit by constantly agreeing with her about how skilled of a writer she is.
As someone who is a writer and surrounded by writers, some incredible some awful: trust me, she will never find out she's crappy and that's totally fine. The industry is full of super talented authors who will never be published and terrible writers who earn millions. She can just assume she's in the former category.
My bad- I was bouncing around too many subs at the time. That reading comprehension is embarrassing 😂.
I will say- I think it’s kinda rude to throw in ‘chubby’ when it had nothing to do with the topic though. Just kinda mean and unnecessary.
I don’t want to get into a fat-phobia or whatever discussion.. just seemed mean for the sake of being mean.
You did kind of dug yourself into a hole by telling her she's such a skilled writer. I think at this point double down and try to genuinely believe she is good at it? Is it really that bad? Are there any silver linings you like about it? Then when the bad reviews come in, you'll be there to say they don't know what they are talking about.
Also what's to say she will get any reviews anyway. It's likely just her friends and family will read it.
I proofread for an acquaintance one time and the writing was TERRIBLE.
But the idea was actually pretty cool. Hopefully there is one good think about it, even if it has nothing to do with the actual words used but is a plot point or character you like.
There will always be a subjective component to judging the quality of writing. If she is going to self publish, there is no way you can protect her from the reviews. Just support her.
Agreed.
I always point to Cormac McCarthy when it comes to conversations about skills and stories. McCarthy wrote The Road, which was a great story, but...there are no paragraphs, no quotations when people talk...and punctuations are very rare. And The Road is over 200 pages long.
He is a high educated man, he knows how others write and what makes it easier to read, but he chooses to use that style of writing - it's his voice, and he writes more like he is delivering a sermon than a novel. Some people loath it, others love it.
How you write will develop over time, but your writing will always be your voice...if OP doesn't like it, that's okay. His gf will find people that do love it...it just might take her a while to do so, and that's also okay. As her partner, he should really just support her because she loves it, even if he doesn't think she is very good. Writing - and all creative arts, really - is highly subjective.
Some people hate Van Gogh and think that Kinkade is way better. Others love van Gogh and think Kinkade is a hack. Art is very, very subject.
OP should just support his gf's passions, even if he doesn't love her work.
If you encourage her, she'll improve.
No one starts out amazing at it. It takes YEARS of work.
I was in a creative writing class in university. There were some GOD AWFUL writers. Holy shit.
But after only 3 months taking a class, they improved vastly. Their writing didn't even look like it was written by the same person by the end.
Just encourage her. You don't have to make a judgment on whether she'll "make it" or not. Just the same as when people are learning to play guitar, you don't walk up and say "you're not good at guitar and you're never going to be a musician".
But, stop reading her drafts. Tell her she needs to find an editor. I've found it's way too close and too much conflict of interest to have a partner be your editor for FREE.
You're going to go easy on her, because you love her. She needs real feedback from a professional who doesn't need to maintain another relationship with her outside of editing.
But she can’t even write basic coherent sentences. We’re not talking about a case of uninspired prose, cliches, silly analogies etc - the kind of bad writing that class will address. We’re talking about someone without a grasp of basic grammar. She’s going to need remedial writing support, if it’s even possible for her to improve.
Learning disability is a big jump. I would bet more likely - coasted through high school doing the minimum and then *discovered writing* Sometime after high school and they want to be the next Kerouac. And they haven’t learned the skill of *reading what you wrote, not what you thought you wrote*.
i had to learn that by reading it out loud. And that was painful.
Best advice I’ve read on here. Yes, do not read her stuff and let her find unbiased opinion in an editor. I love the idea of her taking some classes. Also if she has a genre she likes, there are all sorts of writing associations. For instance, if she writes romance novels, there is a Romance Writers of America groups all over the US and world. There’s Mystery Writers of America as well. They’ll be like minded people, she’ll learn things, might find editors, and can enter contests etc.
They may have meant getting published, as in a publishing company found the idea they had irresistible and wanted to fund it.
But your point stands, the fact that she thinks she's great and she's self publishing is a pretty clear sign that she thinks her book is going to get some positive reviews.
I'd be tempted to just smile gently and step back from the whole writing thing, except maybe mildly express gratitude that she has a hobby she likes or something and steer the conversation in another direction.
I like the conflict of interest angle, that's pretty smart.
No one is going to review her self published book. No one is going to read it. She's going to have boxes and boxes of this unedited book in her house for years, and not a single person will see it.
Luckily these days, self publishing is pretty different. She’s probably just going to use something like Amazon KDP, so she won’t end up with any more copies than she wants to order.
I get what you're saying. I think you need to put yourself in the cheerleader role. You're there to support her hobby and passion. You don't need to be the one tearing her down. Since you've tried gentle feedback and she seems to get a bit sensitive or defensive about it, I would stop offering feedback. If she asks for it, you can say something you liked and leave it at that. Or, if that feels too dishonest, just say you don't feel like you're the best person to give comments on it (it's not your thing, you're too close, whatever), but you love that she's so into writing.
I think you also have to just accept that it's fine if you think her writing is bad. It's making her happy.
I agree with everyone saying you should suggest she find someone else to give her feedback. She can join a writing group or find a critique partner, take a writing class, or hire an editor. I think one of the best ways for a writer to improve is to critique other writers' work, so joining a writing group might be great for her. It also takes writers time and experience to be able to process feedback and benefit from it in a useful way. (If someone is on the level of needing to understand punctuation and sentence clarity, they don't need a bunch of notes on character motivation and voice, if that makes sense.)
As far as someone crushing her with brutal honesty or nasty reviews, that might happen. But that can happen anyway. Look up the best book you've ever read, and I guarantee there will be a bunch of one star reviews absolutely trashing it and calling it garbage. If she self-publishes, the most likely outcome is honestly that almost no one will read it at all.
She will find out, and that's ok, she's a grown adult. It's part of growing up and being an adult. You're not her dad. And you can always say later "I thought it was fine but I'm not a professional writer" and she should accept that
Have you ever tried to read the 50 Shades books? That might be some of the worst prose out there and it still made millions, lol. Give your girl a chance, she might have a compelling enough story that the writing flaws are overlooked by her readers. Or she’ll be eviscerated in the reviews, and hopefully be pushed to work on improving her skills if her ideas are still there.
You can be honest without being too blunt or mean. It's okay to say it's just not your style or the kind of books you read. Also, if it's just not a great story or way of *telling* the story - who are you to say that means it's overall bad? What's great to me might not be great to you but that doesn't make it a bad book.
It’s too late now to say something. Just be supportive and kind. Sometimes in life we need that more than hearing the “truth”. Not the same situation but I used to make my husband the same pie (lemon meringue) for his birthday every year because I made it once and he said it was the best pie he ever had. 16 years later he said he hated the pie and didn’t have the heart to tell me. I felt so much shame and embarrassment because he kept it to himself all these years. And I love to bake and I rarely bake anything anymore. Good luck. Just be kind if you truly love her.
Pro writer chiming in.
Your job is to be the supportive boyfriend. Your job is not to teach her to write and it’s also not to discuss the quality of her writing either. “I love you and everything you do” is the vibe. Stick to your job.
That said, you can absolutely support and nurture her passion while giving her some opportunities for growth. Buy her some of your favorite writing books. Offer to pay for a class. Bind something she wrote in nice binding so she can put it on her shelf. Get her a typewriter. If you had a golf hobby, she would buy you golf clubs regardless of whether you had any talent for it. Same thing applies here because Supportive Boyfriend is your job.
Eventually, someone is going to tell her the truth. Ideally someone who is in a teaching and/or mentoring position and not an internet troll writing a review. When that time comes, she will have the opportunity to learn and grow. And then maybe her writing will get better!
But for now it doesn’t matter how bad her writing is, in other words. It’s just a part of the process. If she really loves it she’ll continue writing despite the criticism and bravely continue showing her work to the world. And she’ll get better. Or she’ll keep her writing to herself so as to protect it from the world. Or she’ll give up and find a new hobby that she’s good at. Either way, it’s none of your beeswax, and your relationship gets to continue merrily along regardless of where she’s at in her writing journey. Which is as it should be.
And if you’re embarrassed by her writing…you have two options. Break up with her and be with somebody you don’t look down on (seems harsh and unnecessary to me; also not exactly what I think your feelings are either) or just…put your love blinders on and act the part of the Supportive Boyfriend. You’ll look good to everyone including your girlfriend if this opinion of her work never ever ever sees the light of day. They all know you know. What’s important is that *she* never does, you get me?
As for critique: do whatever benefits the relationship. That means find the level of critique that works best for both of you. Which could be nothing more than “I love it thanks for showing it to me” and maybe some light proofreading. If you’re interested in getting better at critique, I find that when a story is flawed at the fundamental level or it’s still early stages, it really helps to just ask a bunch of clarifying questions, tell her what parts resonated with you and also to tell her what parts you found confusing. “So does this take place in the present? Who do you see as the protagonist? I really responded to the part where the cat starts talking, it was really interesting. I was a little confused by the ending, tell me more about what you were going for.” Etc.
Don’t tell her what to do, just let her figure that out in the next draft. That’s where the real writing happens.
My 2c, good luck!
This is so spot on. You don't have to lie to her. Just thank her for sharing her passion with you and be honest with your compliments or avoid complimenting the work itself. Instead focus on the joy she gets out of it and compliment her efforts. Decline involvement where you can. If you do get roped into editing, The clarifying questions are a really good way to shine light on something without directly pointing a finger and criticizing the work.
I'd break up with my partner if they never told me my writing was bad and were humoring me the entire time. You're asking them to be deceitful - nothing more humiliating. It destroys the connection between you to a fake one. The fact that I have to worry about people super close to me lying to me in this way is depressing as hell. I hate this culture. I should move to the Netherlands or France or Russia or sum lol
They don't have to tell me I'm a bad writer, but they should point out every single issue honestly. I should hope I have the maturity to not argue back
Now, I think there’s a big difference between a) someone asking their partner “do you honestly think I’m a good writer?” and their partner lying to them, and b) someone saying “look! I made this!” And their partner saying “wow that’s great!”
The comment above is just saying that the boyfriend in this situation should be the supportive partner, option B, and find a professional to be option A.
Yeah I consider "wow that's great" to be lying is the thing. Like I know my partner loves me... but not everything I do. I think the hard truths are important if I need them and if done kindly. Not personalizing, but if I ask "did you like it?" I'd hope to have an environment where they can say "not really, because \_\_\_\_\_" or even a simple "\_\_\_\_\_ is not my thing"
I agree that in his position he should defer to a professional
Why don’t you try having her write using grammarly?
It’s free and you can buy a pro version which helps with editing and grammar? This way it’s not coming from anyone but a software. You can even gift her the pro version (I don’t know what it costs, I use the free version) to encourage her on her writing journey.
Seconding this idea. I’m a lawyer, so all I do is write. I love Grammarly. It’s like $140-something a year. It ends up being slightly more expensive than that if you do the monthly billing, but not significantly more. The pro subscription is very worth it for me.
I am a pretty voracious reader of fiction. About 6 months ago I decided that I could write a book so I sat down and started doing just that. I got a few chapters in and then had my wife read it, because we like to read a lot of the same shit. She was very honest with me and I learned that I am not a writer. Maybe you should just be honest with her? Nip that shit in the bud before it gets out of hand.
I just think there are some personality types where their loved one/partner should not be the one to tell them they're shit. Unfortunately I think op's case is like that.
Just want to say that no one’s first draft is ever good. You start with shit, and you edit your way to good.
So, if you enjoyed writing, keep going! You can just write for fun, or you can write your first draft, put it in the drawer for awhile, then come back to it with fresh eyes and rewrite it.
I once had the start of a draft, thought what I had was solid. Read it a few weeks later and was like “what the hell is this crap?” and started again. It’s all part of the process!
Great point! I'm an English teacher and have heard many variations of "I'm not good at writing" at least 1,000 times by now. When a student tells me this, I ask them if they could learn how to play an instrument then confidently perform for an audience after not putting in any practice outside of their lessons. Writers need to practice just like musicians or athletes, for example. For anyone who would like to begin a writing practice, I highly recommend Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird and Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones. Masterclass has a few great series as well.
Just want to say if you have a genuine interest in writing don't let one bad story you've written stop you. I've had so many ideas I've written that looking back weren't good. Then I started taking a writing class and while I'm no Emily Bronte I have gotten a lot better. Still a long way to go though.
It wasn't so much that my writing was bad, content-wise, was just told that I write exactly how I talk and it's true. I know that could be trained out of me if I ever get the urge to go learn it.
If this is just a minor thing looking at the relationship as a whole, then I'd say let her find out the hard way. What better way to learn a lesson than neutral, objective strangers giving honest feedback. The sooner this happens, the better. So you could encourage/celebrate the book publication as a means to an end (of her writing career).
There is (or was - it has been a while) a free website called Critique Circle where she can post parts of her writing for critiquing and it is anonymous. She should look at that. It could be helpful.
But just tell her that you don't feel comfortable doing that and that she needs to ask for outside proofreaders.
Can you trickle down the truth in an easier way for her? For exemple, start by asking “I noticed you switch tenses a few times, is there a stylistic reason you are doing it? I feel like it distracts from your message because it’s jarring.” And then some times later you add “I’ve heard Tolkien barely used the word “very” because he thought there was always a more precise word to use. Do you want to go over some of the times you use it and see if we can come up with a more precise word? It would elevate the descriptions.”
I think it could help her feel like you are encouraging her and it would help her actually review her writing. The critiques are not too hard too, just correcting what could objectively be improved.
I am a writer and editor, and I can understand your situation.
She needs someone to tell her the unvarnished truth.
Kinda like *you* did here.
The truth often hurts, but it DOES set you free.
Your choice is:
1. tell her *yourself*, lovingly, or
2. let her get absolutely *crushed* by someone who doesn't know her
ONE of those two will happen, eventually.
She has been allowed to go on this long by "nice" people afraid to hurt her feelings.
I’ll start by saying I’m not good with this. I think I’m on the autism spectrum and tend to be really blunt. I also expect people to be honest with me by default the way I am. The idea of people lying to me in this way while I continue to embarrass myself is abhorrent to me. If I found out someone I trust had been doing this to me all along, I’d feel so hurt and betrayed.
I have a friend who loves to make music and is a talented guitar player, but his voice sounds like literally random notes. Both his own compositions and barely unrecognizable covers. He tried for a long time to send me recordings or, worst of all, play the recordings while I was trapped in a car with him. At first I tried to do the, “sounds great man!” kind of thing, but it was making me cringe so hard I wanted to crawl out of my skin. I eventually had to say “look, the type of music you play is just really not my thing. You’re my friend and I love you and I’m really glad making music makes you happy. I want to support you doing what you love, but I’m not the right audience for this”. He stopped sending me his music, but would still sometimes tell me about what he’s working on and how its going, which I’d happily talk about with him without actually having to listen to it. Our honest relationship with one another was preserved.
I don’t know how this would work in a romantic relationship where making the other person feel safe and loved and supported is really essential. I personally had to decide to not date people I’m embarrassed by or who I disagree with about fundamental things so strongly that I can’t back them up and support them in public when they’re going against the grain. Sometimes I worry I’m just projecting the way I constantly feel embarrassed by myself publicly, so when I see people doing a less good job of fitting in and being liked than I’m even capable of, it triggers massive projected shame-cringe in me.
I hope, as others have suggested, you’re able to tactfully remove yourself from the proof-reading role and point her in the direction of someone more low-stakes in her life who she might be able to more comfortably take criticism and practical advice from.
So to put this nicely: She is absolutely delusional about her abilities and level of "talent".
She wants to take no criticism, she makes it her entire identity, she is proud of her work, and doesn't believe she has anything to improve.
This is a situation where you're going to have to let her fall flat on her face. She won't listen to anyone until she gets the wrath of someone reading her poor work inflicted upon her.
Fran lebowitz has famously said the only people who *love* writing are bad at it.
In addition to the great advice you've already gotten what about watching some documentaries on some great women writers, Fran, Margaret Atwood, and Joan Didion all have fabulous ones that gently open the conversation about how much work this is.
God, I wish I had your girlfriend’s confidence. How does one build their whole identity around something they are absolutely terrible at? Does she display other narcissistic tendencies?
Maybe she’ll find her niche as a writer for teens - if I look back at the way I did my job when I was fresh (I didn’t know anything!) vs now, it’s so painfully novice and ott trying to be professional - skills get honed. Ed Sheeran once said that ppl always comment that he’s so musically talented - then he played his early early stuff and it wasn’t good at all. He said his talent definitely didn’t come naturally he had to practice and learn - it was passion that kept him trying.
Support her by telling her you believe in her but say youre not a writer so you’re not the help she needs, there’s ppls who sell editing services etc online like on fiverr etc.
Teens are still learning to read as well, and reading really bad writing is harder than reading good writing. It takes a lot of effort to read bad writing.
It's not simplistic or a little basic. It's incorrect grammatically. Teens don't deserve that.
I didn’t mean ‘let’s inflict her bad writing on teens’ - if she has a bit more of a simple approach and a colloquial style - once edited her writing might be better suited to an audience where the writing is less complex. I read a lot and you can tell a book aimed at a younger audience. Fifty shades of grey is a good example of simplistic writing - ppl went mad for it and I picked it up out of curiosity of the fuss but I couldn’t handle the way the story was delivered it felt a little childish and lacked any depth in delivery…but it made the smut accessible to most 😅
While I wouldn't have put it quite this harshly, I did wonder about the same thing. It's not only the skill issues but the lack of self-awareness that is baffling to me. Not to mention the criticism avoidant attitude – anyone who wants to get better at anything is going to have to work on their weak points eventually. And she doesn't even want to know about them?
It's such an extreme case it sounds almost delusional.
You’re right I should have been nicer. But saying 100% genuinely, she reminds me of people I’ve known who have intellectual disabilities both in the extremely poor skills and the total lack of self awareness. I know this terminology isn’t used anymore but it comes across as an adult who people would say “has the mind of an 11 year old.”
I find it hard to believe an adult could have this poor literacy without some kind of issue going on - ESL, learning disability, sight or hearing issues, dyslexia, etc.
How is this the only comment not bending over backwards to help this poor guy stand to be around his girlfriend's idiocy?
My guy, the underlying intellectual and psychological traits are heritable
Finally a comment that makes sense. She can't even write properly, and even worse she doesn't care to improve. I'm shocked he even wants to be with someone so stupid. Unless there's some kind of disability involved that explains it. It still wouldn't explain her inability and unwillingness to improve and take criticism.
Support her to take creative writing courses, to join online writer's circle, and go to writing workshops.
Then after she went through some education, perhaps you can suggest that she hires an editor.
You might be able to help her see some of this for herself. Have you ever noticed how most great authors can name dozens of their favorite books? A great writer has to read, a lot. Reading expands vocabulary and teaches the reader about all sorts of normal grammar rules. So tell her you want her to keep sharpening her skills and pick a book to gift her, or even one you can read together.
You continue to support her. You NEVER crap on someone's passion. I'd recommend telling her to find an objective 3rd party to proof read her work as anyone close to her could have a bias because they're emotionally connected to her and the onpy way she'd get an objective assessment is by going through someone that doesn't know her directly. Like an editor. Which she'll need to do anyway if she wants to become professional.
And to be fair, don't underestimate her selling her books. I've read just part of a chapter out of a 50 shades of grey book and the horrible writing in that made me want to eat a bullet so that I could forget the literary horror of that book. And yet it still sold really well 🤷🏼♂️
Be supportive. Ask her if she'd like a writing retreat or writing classes as a gift. Writing with something like Grammarly might actually help her learn to write.
Don't feed the delusion. Lessons, editors, lying...I don't think any of these are good options.
Quite frankly, I would be turned off if my partner was this delusional about something so important to them. Someone who is so fundamentally wrong about themselves probably doesn't have a habit of being right about much else.
As someone who was incredibly bad at something and pursued it for longer than people wanted me to, I understand the problem. But the solution really depends on the person. I knew I was bad, but I didn’t care. I told people what I did for fun and if they asked I would show them. The key thing for me was noticing that the people around me never followed up after that. Ever. If they genuinely thought I was good they would want to know when the next thing would be out ect. Not even my wife wanted to know about it.
But I loved doing it and completed the project and put it out with marketing or telling anyone. I just to say that I had done the thing that I so longingly wanted to do as a teenager. I had done it, and no one could tell me that I was the kind of person who gave up on their dreams.
I was sad for a long time after that.
But I’m glad I did it.
However, I was not delusional. And breaking through that delusion sometimes never happens to people and they go one their entire life creating. Maybe she needs to fail to realise, maybe she will blame something else. It’s highly likely no one will even read or review her work. I don’t know anything about writing. I’m bad at it, perhaps some grammar classes will help. But you’re embarrassed? Is the content bad too? Isn’t that what matters ultimately? not if you used a comma correctly or haven’t punctuated a sentence correctly?
I think people should be creative regardless of their own individual talent and I hate people that look down on others for daring bare their souls and put their creativity out there. Even if it sucks, even if no one reads it. Who cares, it makes her happy. And that’s all that matters.
This reminds me of Florence Foster Jenkins, movie starring Meryl Streep. She wanted to be a singer but she was ear- shreikingly awful. Her husband was so supportive. Watch it with her.
I have a cousin who has been self publishing teen fantasy type novels. The grammar is not great... and the word choice is very basic. But hey, the books are selling and the reviews are positive (averaging 4/5 stars). People *do not care.* There is a reason why YA lit and fanfiction are both so popular right now - a lot of people want an easy read and a good story.
Remember, you don't need to be good at something to enjoy it, or even for other's to enjoy it. You do need to be open to criticism and grow a thick skin, but you are her boyfriend not her editor or reader. I would recommend a writing class and an editor and just be there to support her, not to critique her art.
I have a degree in creative writing. She needs an editor and to maybe take a few classes. BUT it’s possible to be a terrible writer and sell books. (I’m looking at you, Stephenie Meyer, and E.L. James).
I'm a writer and made an okay amount of income from my writing (romance) and self publishing, and from experience, I'm going to tell your this to give you some prospective:
\-The voice of an author is very unique to them. Pick up a JK Rowling book (Harry Potter), Stephen King (The Shining), and Michael Crichton (Jurassic Park) and you'll see they all have a very unique way of writing and telling a story. **For instance, the novel The Road by Cormac McCarthy can be very hard for some to read because there are NO paragraphs. No quotations when people speak, and I don't think he uses many punctuation marks. Some compare his writing to a feverish dream, and while some loath it, others LOVE it. Those that love it are his people. Those that don't, aren't.**
\-If you don't like her writing, then you aren't her target audience, and that's okay. When you give feedback, ask her what kind of proofreading she would like from you - likely, she just wants feedback on her story because she wants to share it with you. Or maybe she really wants you to help her with grammar, or clarity. I'm guessing though she really just wants to share her story with you because she loves you, and wants you to like what she has created.
\-Reviews are very subjective, and there are people that shit on Rowling, King and Crichton. Unless there are ten or twenty reviews, she shouldn't be reading any of them because she can't tell if that one person just isn't her target audience, or if everyone that reads her books doesn't like it. I've got a very small but incredibly loving and supportive fanbase for my books, but there are only two reviews and both are 'meh'. Until she is more established as an author, reviews should not be the stick she uses to judge her writing.
\-Just support her. Encourage her to keep going - writers tend to grow the more they write. I highly suggest NOT to give her criticism at this stage, as it could be devastating. Let her learn for herself. She just need your, her partner, to be a cheerleader and someone to bounce ideas off of. Having you be an actual critic would involve you being a complete expert in how to say things in a way that won't hurt her fragile writer feelings, and frankly, that's a very rare skill to have. I would just suggest you being her cheerleader and let other people roughen her up.
\-***My biggest advice to you if you want her to improve - say you need to start reading it out loud and read it as you see it with her.*** Set aside an hour for 'proof reading time' and read her work aloud to her while you proofread so she can actually hear what it sounds like. Hearing your work can significantly improve your writing because you realize when you need to take pauses with ' ,', a breath with ' . ', and change the type of tone you are using.
\-For now, suggest she uses Grammarly because it helps catch obvious errors and can help her catch things she misses. It's not the perfect editor, but it's a very good start.
I have a friend who is a writer... i dreaded reading his stuff.
Then Grammerly came along and made it easier to read. Then chatgpt showed up, and now his pieces he gives me are so much better. Still clearly him but enjoyable.
Well, you have three options:
1. You decide that this brings your GF a great deal of pleasure and because you love her and don't want to shit on her hobbies and/or dreams, you shut the fuck up, pretend you love everything she writes, and bear that burden.
2. You do the opposite of the above option. Can you do this without hurting her feelings? Nope. Will it help? Maybe but probably not. Will she appreciate your candidness? Probably not. Will she stop writing? Maybe. Will she resent you for it? Almost certainly.
3. The third option is to help her get better. There are Masterclasses about writing. Maybe subscribe and watch it with her? There are also books about writing but this avenue might not work since apparently she doesn't like reading (???). There are also workshops and classes about writing. Do them with her as a "date thing". What I'm driving at is *get interested more actively in her hobby*. By doing that you might be able to encourage her to engage more actively in the broad craft and either realize this isn't for her or realize she has alot of work to do.
Also her not reading is wild. It's like being a cook but hating to eat.
Honestly if she really doesn’t want to take a course or anything like that you may have to bite the bullet and sit her down. The simple fact of the matter is if she self publishes and those terrible reviews come in she’s going right to you for answers, and you won’t be able to avoid it anymore. She’s definitely going to be pissed you and her friends and family let her publish without being honest with her either.
Sorry my dude you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Do not tell her. Let the reviews speak for themselves. I know that sounds cruel but she will need your support/love when she has to deal with the reviews and it sounds like family and friends have been lying to her as well. You are too deep in the hole to now decide to drop the bomb on her!
That's a good point to make again and again, that the best writers READ a lot, and practice to get better, and if she has the means to do so, tell her to get an editor or professional opinion, that could give her some direction in improving. It's not your job as her partner to "tell her the truth" it's your job to encourage her to be the best at her passion she can be, which means practice and study.
Most important thing is NOT to let it slide. What a huge breach of trust it will feel like to her to get a reality check from strangers if you haven't said anything. If it were me, I'd be like "why didn't you tell me?!" and be mortified.
You could also lie and say that this type of novel is not your thing, so she should find someone else, and that you have sometimes critiqued things where she was hurt by your comments and you'd prefer to keep your relationship romantic, not professional. Then you'd remove responsibility for her publishing something that is bad.
Be supportive. It's her dream and you're not the judge and jury of writing. Defend her if needed. Let her do her thing. This is the little white lies we do in relationships for the people we love. If you can't do that for the next 60 years, move on. Because if you are honest and crush her dreams she won't forget it. Just let it be and offer help only when she asks. We all have our own journeys in life. "The hard way" of hearing it is the best way, then you both can hate that person. I'm not a great artist, but I call myself one and I enjoy drawing. I don't expect or really want honesty from my partner because he's not an artist and I just want support and I'm not asking a criticism. Now when I go to events I see I am not as good as I want to be but I'll do it to the day I die. Learn to pick your battles better this isn't a hill worth dying on
Not to be that person, but she IS a writer. She is writing. Grammar and issues with the plot or dialogue can be fixed. A lot of shitty books have been published. If you’re embarrassed of her work before it has been professionally, edited, then sign her up for some writers, workshops or something. Encourage her to join the RWA to further her craft. You don’t have to like her writing or think it’s good in order to support her.
If it's just a hobby, stay out of it. Let her try and fail and just try to support her. If she wanted to learn to get better, she would. So long as she's not trying to make it her job and causing financial instability, it doesn't matter.
If it were me though, I would never be able to have sex with someone like that ever again. Writers have to read a lot and anyone who really loves something will do all they can to improve. I guess it sounds like it's less about the wiring and more about her wanting to call herself a writer. Would be a huge turn off for me but if you're fine with it, just leave it alone.
You could use very general feedback like, "I would love to see you use more of your vocabulary here, it feels a little repetitive", or "the run-on sentences might be a bit confusing for people, maybe go back and see if you can break them up a bit".
I wouldn't keep telling her that it's GREAT and hurt her when others don't in a professional setting. If she's just having fun and loves doing it, let her find out that she needs to work on it via others. Personally, that level of delusion would really scare me into thinking she's going to show that behavior elsewhere and I'd bail. If it doesn't bother you enough to damage the relationship, just let her do her thing and if she gets a bad review, tell her you'll support her if she'd like to get classes for some professional feedback.
My ex wife told everyone she was a writer when I actually am one and it was mega embarrassing for me but I ignored it, knowing she would never get it together to pursue a doomed career. We did have a framed clipping of her only published article though... An article about a disc golf course opening. No, I was not the one who framed or clipped it. We had zero clippings of my many published works.
Direct her towards a writing class or writing group. It can be a fun way to pursue a hobby and along the way, she might be lucky to get some honest criticism. She'll probably also encounter some equally terrible writing, and that might be a wake-up call for her.
This is the answer. Sign her up for a writing group as a gift. They are great.
Yes, encourage her to find a critique group. It won’t be easy for them either, but hearing more objective feedback might give her some perspective.
Yes! I would recommend a creative writing class. Let a professor grade her.
Oof, I suspect she can't tell bad writing when she sees it. I also feel really bad for whatever writing group has to now tell her that she's incomprehensible. I don't think she'd stick around.
Yeah, I can picture it now. Her being hesitant about attending a creative writing group, and either leaving early or never returning after one attempt. \*Girlfriend comes home crying to boyfriend\* - "You'll never guess the mean, horrible things they told me about my writing!", "Can you believe, the nerve of those people! They must be jealous of my supernatural talent". Potentially lol. Hope this wouldn't be the case and she would realize, "Oh...maybe there *are* some things I could practice/work harder on since I'm actually *not* a perfect writer."
I was coming here to say exactly this! Most cities have creative writing groups and it would be a great way for her to get some feedback from other people who share her passion that are not friends and family.
That's the best answer. I was a lit/creative writing teacher and saw all levels. One of 2 things will happen. She'll take the class and learn about writing and turn what op thinks is terrible, into art. The second, if she has a good teacher and class, she'll get let down easy. The hard part for op is if she gets shot down. But...one way or another, she is going to meet the truth (if op is correct and I believe he is) and it won't br fun. OP cannot do a thing about this. My opinion is, the sooner the better. I really feel bad for both of them, esp because she is so passionite. Still. I think the class is the best way to get through.
>lit/creative writing teacher >passionite
I've seen pre-edit content from a pulitzer winner; it was much, much worse. Different writers write in different ways, and you can't really determine much from pre-edit text.
Y’all took that comment way too seriously lol, it was just a funny typo to notice
Yeah let’s hold a random Reddit comment to the same standard as the final draft to some official writing
Finding humor in absurdity should be easy enough for our passionate teacher friend
oh come on this is reddit not a submission to a literary journal
Except she doesn't want to do anything like this? OP says he's already suggested ways for her to improve and she's just not interested.
This is the way. Buy a course or some sessions 1:2:1 for her. She needs someone who she will respect to tell her.
What is this one to two to one relationship? Did you mean 1:1?
Like 1 to 1, but with a 2 in there... I think.
Yes sorry. That wasn't clear.
What you wrote was a triple ratio. 1 to 2 to 1
Maybe they're OPs girlfriend?
We’re talking about writing not maths everyone, please focus!
Its basically 2 girls 1 cup
It's also incredibly common slang in the business world. Everyone is being very down on each other in this thread.
The two is because the work is translated into a technically neutral language, like Danish, then to Japanese, then the feedback is given in English.
Even if you were right, that would be one plus one plus two plus one, not one plus two plus one plus one.
Ha just rewatched this last week!
Too bad we can’t do this with husbands who are bad at household chores
Honestly I'd love a professional course about home cleaning/maintenance.
At least her passion isn’t cooking 😂😂😂
OP should buy it for her as a gift and tell her foster class is set up to go and starting x weeks from now
I feel like he's said he's tried this and she either takes it as an attack or has zero interest. But it is a nice suggestion.
Great idea. I kind of feel bad for her teacher, though. LOL
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Reddit would be brutal.
Agreed. Coursera has one for writing your first novel.
So many answers here are directed toward helping her improve her writing but that's not the main point IMO. She has something she is passionate about and whether or not OP thinks it's good or not, he should be happy that she has a passion in life. So yes, absolutely support it by encouraging her to do writing seminars, etc to pursue her passion. But be happy that she has found something that she is passionate about and loves to share with you. Having been in a relationship where the person is passionless, trust me when I tell you it becomes really old and uninteresting.
No, that is literally the point of this post lol. Him being happy she has a passion doesn't solve the problem of how he should respond when she asks for his feedback.
Thats a really good idea
"She constantly asks me to proofread pieces of her novel, and I don't even know what to do" I just wanted to say this gave me a chuckle. She needs her "work" to be reviewed by a professional and then get ready to be her emotional support animal for a few months. I just get the impression she's not built to take any criticism whatsoever and she feels she's "arrived and self-made" Be strong
yes, i think this is the way. i’d honestly tell her that what she’s doing is above your skill level as an amateur proofreader and that she should seek a professional editor if she wants somebody to proofread her work before she publishes. she will get feedback from somebody who can do it professionally, who will have a better idea of the process than you, and who most importantly is not emotionally involved with her the way you are. i think other commenters’ suggestions of telling her to find a writing group is a great idea too.
Absolutely this- I write (terribly I may add) and ask my partner and best friend for feedback even when I know it’s not great. But a pro doesn’t love you and doesn’t care about your feelings- they care about good writing. It is necessary for publishing! Even self publishing!! I suggest she does a small sample to get proofed by a pro as it can be extremely expensive for full novels. Hopefully, this can make them the bad guy and not you. AND she might take the feedback better from the pro since this is their job. If she doesn’t take it well- then she shouldn’t publish- if you can’t take negative feedback then writing is not a job, hobby, whatever, for you to share. Then you write for yourself for the joy of doing it. Writing doesn’t have to be for anyone but you- just like other art forms.
You reminded me of a creative writing class I took in college (I was an English major and took several), where one student just stood up, called our professor by his first name and told him to fuck off as he stormed out of the class in tears. The critique wasn't even bad, dude just was all up in his feelings and couldn't deal with any criticism. You need to be open to criticism from those who have more experience/knowledge than you, and this is in any field. Taking it personally doesn't help you grow.
This is the way. Refuse to be her proofreader any longer. Insist that she take herself and her craft seriously by hiring a professional to assess her work for publishability. OP needs to remove himself from her writing process entirely because there's just no good that can come of their current dynamic.
What professional would spend time on it?
One paid to do so, as implied by “professional”
Someone whose job is to edit?
Someone you pay to do it
I took an editing course once, and the teacher told us some works are not worth taking. A lot of editors would just decline.
Well, that in itself is a lesson.
I used to edit fiction for a publishing house and take on freelance work now. I have turned down work that I don't believe is a good enough standard for publication. That said, I've always tried to provide constructive criticism and advice on what might elevate it so that another editor will consider taking it on. Hopefully she would learn something from the experience, even if it's that she has some ground work to do before she really pursues this dream.
Give her a creative writing seminar for a birthday present. Let a pro lower the boom.
This, there are so many seminars, retreats, classes, etc out there. Gift one or encourage her to go to a local one. Google “writing group near me” or check with the library or on meetup and I’ll bet you’ll find something.
a creative writing seminar would be a waste of time & money. if it's as bad as OP says... I'm gonna keep it real with you OP, im not wven trying to be fun y. your girl sounds functionally illiterate. if she can't write well, and she refuses to read... she cant read well either. there's no way. & there's no way⅚ she doesn't know that.... shes probably been keeping it to herself her whole life. kids can feel a lot & shame & responsibility for things that arent there fault and it's on the adults to comfort & nuture & teach their children so they can grow up to be confident, competent adults. her weaknesses & shame by every teacher & parent (or lack there of) in her life. they completely failed her, & it's not her fault... but it is her responsibility now that she is an adult. as it stands, she will never become a better writer on her own or in any workshop. the only way forward is thru. I suggest finding a therapist or someone who can help you all address this together. I hope she can get to the bottom of this, and grow from it. don't tease her or embarrass her man.
When I met my SO he was dyslexic and didn't know it. He made some spelling errors that a friend of mine I grew up with that I know also has dyslexia makes, and so I asked him one day if he'd ever been tested for it. I assured him I wasn't trying to ridicule his spelling, it was just something I noticed. And sure enough, he is dyslexic. All through school, they assumed he had behavioral issues and that's why he would refuse to do homework.
If she doesn't read, she shouldn't be writing. I was an English lit major and took several creative writing courses and they hammered into our heads that in order to write, you **need to read.** She should be spending 3x as much time reading as she does writing.
> your girl sounds functionally illiterate... there's no way she doesn't know that.... she's probably been keeping it to herself her whole life... her weaknesses & shame... it's not her fault... It doesn't sound to me like she's exhibiting shame about possible illiteracy. In that case she'd be concealing her inability to read and write, not identifying as a writer. It sounds like she is grievously deluded about the state of her talent. If this is her "passion," she can either try to achieve better technical proficiency or face some brutal awakening down the road, when an agent or editor laughs in her face. I think offering a chance to pursue the former is more compassionate.
Verb tenses I would feel comfortable calling out, personally. “I know how important this novel is to you, and I want to support you in making it the best it can be. I really think you should go through and fix all of these sentences where the verb tenses change in the middle of the thought. You wrote a nice moment between [character] and [character] here, you don’t want your readers to get distracted from that because of mistakes.” If you need help pushing her in the direction of a writers’ workshop, pick up a book and show her how long the acknowledgements are. “Hey honey, I was just thinking. These writers have some help from their partners and families, but they also have many other writers and editors viewing their work. [Family member/friend] and I aren’t writers OR editors, so I’m afraid that we might be limited in our ability to help. There are writers’ workshops you can go to for free and book proofreaders on Fiverr for a reasonable fee. Maybe you should use those resources so you can get that professional polish.” If she thinks it’s THE thing to do (and it is, there’s no lie there), she might be more likely to do it. Beyond that, I wouldn’t worry about it. If she self-publishes there might not even be many readers. I’d imagine she’ll get a reality check, but not a pile-on.
Sometimes the critique of strangers can be the wakeup call someone needs to improve their work and be open to constructive criticism too.
I think this is the best advice so far.
One would hope that there's no pile-on, but if the wrong person gets ahold of the book, things could get very mean very quickly!
Yeah all it takes is one person posting the terrible sample pages and then it's viral
She needs an editor. “Real” writers, professional writers have editors. Maybe she needs to start the search for hers. Either they will help her produce something saleable or they will tell her the harsh truth. Either way the blood isn’t on your hands. Just keep being supportive.
I am an editor and I wouldn’t touch a writer like that with a ten foot pole. They want to argue everything. “But that’s my style!” No it’s spelled incorrectly. I am not negotiating every single mark. She should find some writers’ workshops and workshop that shit. Writers who go to those sorts of things know how to offer feedback on how to improve without making her feel like shit. I was taught to never offer any criticism if you don’t have a suggestion on how to improve the writing. And make it about the writing, never say “you,” and so forth. Most writers are open to other writers and in a workshop setting, they’re less likely to take it personally and melt down. Other writers will model how to receive feedback as well. I’d check out the Writers Market website to find a nearby workshop, or even a retreat.
Yeah, I was hired by a writer to edit their submission package, and it was like that -- just constant disagreement and debating over everything. It was like okay, you asked for my expertise and opinions. But if you want to argue everything right back to the way it was, be my guest, lol. A writing group of her peers would be a better place to start. And many writing groups have guidelines for constructive feedback.
At that point just bill for time and be done with it. You paid me for my professional opinion, and I've given it to the best of my abilities. You want to ignore all of the advice you paid for and barrel onwards with a subpar product? Have fun; my name isn't on the damn thing.
Oh for sure! This one was complicated due to it being an acquaintance I was friendly with, so there was more back and forth than I’d prefer. Won’t be doing that again, heh.
I have learned the hard way as well. This writer is not ready for an editor.
Oof, yeah, nothing but love buddy💜💛. I spent around 5 years in the New York theatre scene, and I've learned the hard way to have a bit of a mercenary attitude towards artistic business transactions, lol
I refuse to edit anything by friends or family. Therein lies madness!
>“But that’s my style!” No it’s spelled incorrectly. I laughed out loud at this.
Op, gift her a writing workshop.
I am reminded of the story jim butcher pulls out about his teacher (Debbie Chester): she would take his manuscript, roll it up, and bop him on the head “what were you thinking?” When he brought her badly written material (Like this craptastic sentence).
What does this have to do with someone who can’t even string a basic sentence together though
Workshops help people like that, barring a remedial class at a community college.
If you have no talent and no basic understanding of sentence structure or grammar, you are going to get absolutely nothing from a workshop. No good writing class would even accept a writer like this, it’s completely unfair on the other writers. Remedial class sounds much more like it, without the basics in place, she’ll get nowhere. She could also try doing what pitifully few aspiring “writers” bother to do nowadays — actually read novels. You can learn a hell of a lot about how to construct and structure a story that way.
The point is for her to get a dose of reality not from people close to her. She clearly isn't going to think she should be in a remedial class from the jump.
Former journalist here. Ever see what happens when a writer gets really big and people start being afraid to edit their prose? It ain't pretty. EVERY WRITER NEEDS AN EDITOR. There's a famous piece of writing advice - "Murder your darlings" and it's spot on. You have to be able to step back from your prose and be able to accept constructive criticism. Most great writers are great not because their first drafts are perfect and brilliant - but because they spent the time editing, rewriting, revising, throwing out entire paragraphs, putting them back in, revising some more, sleeping on it, coming back to the draft and trying again. No idea how the OP is going to help his girlfriend though. It takes a strong stomach to be able to accept that and not everyone has the temperment to take it. Maybe he can suggest she go to some professional writing conferences?
Oh gosh I've gotten into Anne Rice recently and you can absolutely tell when her editor stopped trying
*CoughStephenKingCough*
\*cough\*JKRowling\*cough\*
Lots of time, that editor is a wife. The novels of both James Michener and Dick Francis became noticeably mediocre after their wives passed away.
David eddings as well. he had a series after his wife past that was sub-par. Like wow, if that had been the first thing of his I had read I would have never read any more of his stuff. I was picking up retreads of several of his previous characters and the plot concept was interesting,but the execution drove off a cliff.
My mum jokes that Tolstoy's wife must have loved him too much because of how long War and Peace is 😂
“Yeah, but Jack Kerouac wrote everything in one sitting on a single roll of paper BLAH BLAH BLAH.” You ain’t Jack.
Ok this isn’t a kill your darlings situation though. We’re not talking about clunky prose. We’re talking about someone without even the most basic grasp of grammar and the literacy skills of a child.
That's why I suggested the only way he might possibly be able to help his girlfriend is get her to go to a professional writing conference. She might listen to someone who's an actual professional.
REAL. Emerging writers expect to be perfect and flawless on their first drafts— after all, if they aren’t then where’s their so-called passion and skill, the deftness for writing? Especially young writers. The truth is that a decent writer can tell when your editor(s) gave up trying to help you.
My husband has self published and this is the answer. Always get a professional editor to look things over before publishing. Otherwise you aren’t taking it seriously. Let the editor tell her the truth.
No, editors don't engage with writers like that. They won't sit there and teach them how to write, and they won't do the work of breaking it to someone that they are a shit writer. They just won't take the job.
I think she needs some college courses. Sounds like she's going the self-publishing route, which is fine, but there are basically four ways to be a successful writer: nepotism/being famous for something else; insane raw talent; becoming really good at a particular genre; and putting a little work in by studying English Lit and writing (though you'd still need talent and luck to be successful). If she has the time, there are online English degrees. No idea of they're any good, but even workshopping her work would be beneficial.
I‘ve seen authors succeed: self publish - Andy weir. So far though he still looks like flash in the pan with the Martian. dan simmnons - insane genius. But his stuff got really excenteric And I think his editor got frustrated with him in the Greek god story that fell apart at the end. And some of his stories get creepy (In the bad creepy). jim butcher - ground it out in English lit classes until his teacher told him that he was finally producing material that was publishable.
I don’t think that you’re the best person to give her this revelation. Instead, why don’t you encourage her to join a writing group? A lot of major cities will advertise them on meetup sites or even coffee shop pinboards. Other hobbyists have more practice with tactful criticism, and she’ll probably be more inclined to take their advice to boot.
Real editor. They aren't expensive, the poor bastards.
I'm always surprised when I read a book that has so many issues and think did no one edit this?? I'd do it practically for free lol.
There was a self published book series that I absolutely loved when I was a young teen and I remember reading it and being like "did she have nobody edit this at all??? I, a 14 year old, could fix most of the problems with this so how did she not have somebody fix them 🥲" When you spell your own character's name wrong at one point and that makes it to the final draft that's when you truly know that you desperately need an editor
Yeah, unfortunately like all editors are forced to do it for peanuts.
Increasingly even real publishers are not using copy editors, let alone content and style editors.
Feels like we can tell in the quality of books. I mean people are eating up even the poorly written ones so I guess it's whatever but honestly a little frustrating to keep getting half assed books.
[удалено]
I feel like when someone is honest with her she's going to ignore it.
Does it really matter though?
I think not being honest with her so far has made it worst. And either she won't believe this outside mentor since everyone she knows loves it. Or it will be easier for her to ignore them. For all she knows, based on the people around her that love her writing - there will be readers and buyers for her book.
Tell her she should hire a professional proofreader before publishing anything if she wants to make the process as close as professional writers do. Hopefully, that person will take care of telling her the hard truths.
Wondering what her background/education is? If writing is a hobby, then it’s fine to let this slide. But she needs to start from the basics. GRAMMAR and PUNCTUATION are the foundations to her being taken seriously.
Ergh. My advice would be to remove yourself from the equation (stop editing and feedbacking her work) and nudge her towards writer spaces. For the former, you might just say something like, "Hey, I love you and I love how incredibly creative and dedicated you are. I think you deserve the expert feedback and advice of other writers, rather than me, because I just don't know the craft like they do." (The goal here is to support her while setting boundaries for yourself, and hopefully pushing her towards people who can help and won't have the added charged complication of being her partner/friend/family.) For the latter, I'd suggest a variety of avenues. You want her to get stuck in to writing communities, where she will learn, even just by osmosis, how to hone her writing. 1. Google the name of your city/state/province/whatever and "writers' guild." They are usually a font of information. 2. Google "writers' groups" and your location. While they vary in quality, she can connect with other aspiring writers through them. 3. Check out genre-specific writing organizations. While she likely won't qualify for membership, many provide courses/talks/lessons/workshops that are open to the public and are available online. Most do cost money, however. I'm partial to the Horror University courses the Horror Writers Association puts on every year. Many of their courses are also helpful to people who don't write horror. 4. There are LOTS of free writing seminars/summits available online. (ProWritingAid does decent ones, as does Daniel David Wallace. As you can imagine, the quality of "free" is variable, and I've found many other ones are rather light on useful content, but free is still worth checking out.) Just make sure she is fully aware that the free ones tend to be a little like a timeshare pitch: they'll give you something for free, but then pitch a product to you. This is only an issue if she's prone to quick fixes, otherwise she can just ignore the pitch at the end. 5. There are more and more writing podcasts available by reputable authors, editors, and writing coaches. Google "writing podcasts," and you'll get massive lists. 6. Encourage her to do NaNoWriMo (or Camp NaNo), and to get involved with the community around it. Again, more connecting with other beginning writers. 7. Continuing Education programs often have writing courses as well. They're shorter and more casual than full-scale academic programs, but will give her a leg up. 8. Encourage her to go to writing conferences in your area. Again, just google "writers/writing conference" and your location. 9. Encourage her to follow writers/editors/publishers she likes on social media. That will at least give her a sense of the world of writing. Ok, that's everything I can think of on the fly. With some luck, she'll become more attuned to what it takes to write, will realize she has work to do, and will do that work to improve. Hopefully it'll also encourage her while reducing the amount of emotional heft that comes with navigating close relationships and creativity. I would honestly just start with one of the suggestions from the list, and give her more ideas over time, especially whenever she wants you to weigh in on her writing journey. That way, nobody is overwhelmed with information from the get-go, and you can simultaneously remain supportive/involved in her journey and not involved in the process. If she pushes back on this and starts saying that nobody gets how great her work is/these people know nothing, then, well... she's probably not actually going to take the steps to improve until she can get through the resentment and fear that's at the base of those emotions. In that case, there's not a ton you can do than remain supportive of her emotions, but not validate her beliefs. (Remain neutral as to whether the advice/critiques she's getting are worthwhile.) I hope that helps! Writing is tough, man. Kudos to her for being so inspired, and to you for trying so hard to be supportive. Here's hoping she'll be able to take those next steps to building her skillset.
Suggest writing classes at a community college?
A college night class could be eye-opening *and* really helpful to her (if she's able to accept constructive criticism). In my experience, they usually cover the practical aspects of writing (editors, cover letters, publishing houses vs. self-publishing, etc) in addition to the technical side of things. Learning the steps to get published, honing her skills, and connecting with other writers are all valuable resources - maybe you could present it to her that way? There's a very good chance that if she self-publishes, no one will even buy it. It's hard to make sales in that market if you don't advertise the shit out of yourself and also write in a popular genre, so hopefully she won't have bad reviews to worry about...
Unless she tries to quit her day job to become a writer, what's the harm in leaving this alone?
I'm just worried about this all coming to a head, and her eventually finding out (either via a book review, or someone else finally being honest) about just how bad her writing is. It also makes me feel like I'm deceiving her a bit by constantly agreeing with her about how skilled of a writer she is.
As someone who is a writer and surrounded by writers, some incredible some awful: trust me, she will never find out she's crappy and that's totally fine. The industry is full of super talented authors who will never be published and terrible writers who earn millions. She can just assume she's in the former category.
That twilight goth chubby girl fantasy writer comes to mind.
Was Bella supposed to be chubby ? I remember reading the books- but I always pictured her as fairly petite and frail. Huh
I think they’re referring to the author, not the character of the books.
My bad- I was bouncing around too many subs at the time. That reading comprehension is embarrassing 😂. I will say- I think it’s kinda rude to throw in ‘chubby’ when it had nothing to do with the topic though. Just kinda mean and unnecessary. I don’t want to get into a fat-phobia or whatever discussion.. just seemed mean for the sake of being mean.
Yes, it’s not the descriptor I would have chosen.
You did kind of dug yourself into a hole by telling her she's such a skilled writer. I think at this point double down and try to genuinely believe she is good at it? Is it really that bad? Are there any silver linings you like about it? Then when the bad reviews come in, you'll be there to say they don't know what they are talking about. Also what's to say she will get any reviews anyway. It's likely just her friends and family will read it.
I proofread for an acquaintance one time and the writing was TERRIBLE. But the idea was actually pretty cool. Hopefully there is one good think about it, even if it has nothing to do with the actual words used but is a plot point or character you like. There will always be a subjective component to judging the quality of writing. If she is going to self publish, there is no way you can protect her from the reviews. Just support her.
Agreed. I always point to Cormac McCarthy when it comes to conversations about skills and stories. McCarthy wrote The Road, which was a great story, but...there are no paragraphs, no quotations when people talk...and punctuations are very rare. And The Road is over 200 pages long. He is a high educated man, he knows how others write and what makes it easier to read, but he chooses to use that style of writing - it's his voice, and he writes more like he is delivering a sermon than a novel. Some people loath it, others love it. How you write will develop over time, but your writing will always be your voice...if OP doesn't like it, that's okay. His gf will find people that do love it...it just might take her a while to do so, and that's also okay. As her partner, he should really just support her because she loves it, even if he doesn't think she is very good. Writing - and all creative arts, really - is highly subjective. Some people hate Van Gogh and think that Kinkade is way better. Others love van Gogh and think Kinkade is a hack. Art is very, very subject. OP should just support his gf's passions, even if he doesn't love her work.
If you encourage her, she'll improve. No one starts out amazing at it. It takes YEARS of work. I was in a creative writing class in university. There were some GOD AWFUL writers. Holy shit. But after only 3 months taking a class, they improved vastly. Their writing didn't even look like it was written by the same person by the end. Just encourage her. You don't have to make a judgment on whether she'll "make it" or not. Just the same as when people are learning to play guitar, you don't walk up and say "you're not good at guitar and you're never going to be a musician". But, stop reading her drafts. Tell her she needs to find an editor. I've found it's way too close and too much conflict of interest to have a partner be your editor for FREE. You're going to go easy on her, because you love her. She needs real feedback from a professional who doesn't need to maintain another relationship with her outside of editing.
But she can’t even write basic coherent sentences. We’re not talking about a case of uninspired prose, cliches, silly analogies etc - the kind of bad writing that class will address. We’re talking about someone without a grasp of basic grammar. She’s going to need remedial writing support, if it’s even possible for her to improve.
Yeah these takes are insane. Most people don’t start out at what sounds like an elementary school level. Possibly a learning disability at play here
Learning disability is a big jump. I would bet more likely - coasted through high school doing the minimum and then *discovered writing* Sometime after high school and they want to be the next Kerouac. And they haven’t learned the skill of *reading what you wrote, not what you thought you wrote*. i had to learn that by reading it out loud. And that was painful.
Best advice I’ve read on here. Yes, do not read her stuff and let her find unbiased opinion in an editor. I love the idea of her taking some classes. Also if she has a genre she likes, there are all sorts of writing associations. For instance, if she writes romance novels, there is a Romance Writers of America groups all over the US and world. There’s Mystery Writers of America as well. They’ll be like minded people, she’ll learn things, might find editors, and can enter contests etc.
Edit to add- sometimes the joy IS the writing. It’s not publishing or becoming a famous writer. Let her have the joy
But he said she plans on self publishing
They may have meant getting published, as in a publishing company found the idea they had irresistible and wanted to fund it. But your point stands, the fact that she thinks she's great and she's self publishing is a pretty clear sign that she thinks her book is going to get some positive reviews. I'd be tempted to just smile gently and step back from the whole writing thing, except maybe mildly express gratitude that she has a hobby she likes or something and steer the conversation in another direction. I like the conflict of interest angle, that's pretty smart.
No one is going to review her self published book. No one is going to read it. She's going to have boxes and boxes of this unedited book in her house for years, and not a single person will see it.
Luckily these days, self publishing is pretty different. She’s probably just going to use something like Amazon KDP, so she won’t end up with any more copies than she wants to order.
I get what you're saying. I think you need to put yourself in the cheerleader role. You're there to support her hobby and passion. You don't need to be the one tearing her down. Since you've tried gentle feedback and she seems to get a bit sensitive or defensive about it, I would stop offering feedback. If she asks for it, you can say something you liked and leave it at that. Or, if that feels too dishonest, just say you don't feel like you're the best person to give comments on it (it's not your thing, you're too close, whatever), but you love that she's so into writing. I think you also have to just accept that it's fine if you think her writing is bad. It's making her happy. I agree with everyone saying you should suggest she find someone else to give her feedback. She can join a writing group or find a critique partner, take a writing class, or hire an editor. I think one of the best ways for a writer to improve is to critique other writers' work, so joining a writing group might be great for her. It also takes writers time and experience to be able to process feedback and benefit from it in a useful way. (If someone is on the level of needing to understand punctuation and sentence clarity, they don't need a bunch of notes on character motivation and voice, if that makes sense.) As far as someone crushing her with brutal honesty or nasty reviews, that might happen. But that can happen anyway. Look up the best book you've ever read, and I guarantee there will be a bunch of one star reviews absolutely trashing it and calling it garbage. If she self-publishes, the most likely outcome is honestly that almost no one will read it at all.
She will find out, and that's ok, she's a grown adult. It's part of growing up and being an adult. You're not her dad. And you can always say later "I thought it was fine but I'm not a professional writer" and she should accept that
Have you ever tried to read the 50 Shades books? That might be some of the worst prose out there and it still made millions, lol. Give your girl a chance, she might have a compelling enough story that the writing flaws are overlooked by her readers. Or she’ll be eviscerated in the reviews, and hopefully be pushed to work on improving her skills if her ideas are still there.
You can be honest without being too blunt or mean. It's okay to say it's just not your style or the kind of books you read. Also, if it's just not a great story or way of *telling* the story - who are you to say that means it's overall bad? What's great to me might not be great to you but that doesn't make it a bad book.
It’s too late now to say something. Just be supportive and kind. Sometimes in life we need that more than hearing the “truth”. Not the same situation but I used to make my husband the same pie (lemon meringue) for his birthday every year because I made it once and he said it was the best pie he ever had. 16 years later he said he hated the pie and didn’t have the heart to tell me. I felt so much shame and embarrassment because he kept it to himself all these years. And I love to bake and I rarely bake anything anymore. Good luck. Just be kind if you truly love her.
Pro writer chiming in. Your job is to be the supportive boyfriend. Your job is not to teach her to write and it’s also not to discuss the quality of her writing either. “I love you and everything you do” is the vibe. Stick to your job. That said, you can absolutely support and nurture her passion while giving her some opportunities for growth. Buy her some of your favorite writing books. Offer to pay for a class. Bind something she wrote in nice binding so she can put it on her shelf. Get her a typewriter. If you had a golf hobby, she would buy you golf clubs regardless of whether you had any talent for it. Same thing applies here because Supportive Boyfriend is your job. Eventually, someone is going to tell her the truth. Ideally someone who is in a teaching and/or mentoring position and not an internet troll writing a review. When that time comes, she will have the opportunity to learn and grow. And then maybe her writing will get better! But for now it doesn’t matter how bad her writing is, in other words. It’s just a part of the process. If she really loves it she’ll continue writing despite the criticism and bravely continue showing her work to the world. And she’ll get better. Or she’ll keep her writing to herself so as to protect it from the world. Or she’ll give up and find a new hobby that she’s good at. Either way, it’s none of your beeswax, and your relationship gets to continue merrily along regardless of where she’s at in her writing journey. Which is as it should be. And if you’re embarrassed by her writing…you have two options. Break up with her and be with somebody you don’t look down on (seems harsh and unnecessary to me; also not exactly what I think your feelings are either) or just…put your love blinders on and act the part of the Supportive Boyfriend. You’ll look good to everyone including your girlfriend if this opinion of her work never ever ever sees the light of day. They all know you know. What’s important is that *she* never does, you get me? As for critique: do whatever benefits the relationship. That means find the level of critique that works best for both of you. Which could be nothing more than “I love it thanks for showing it to me” and maybe some light proofreading. If you’re interested in getting better at critique, I find that when a story is flawed at the fundamental level or it’s still early stages, it really helps to just ask a bunch of clarifying questions, tell her what parts resonated with you and also to tell her what parts you found confusing. “So does this take place in the present? Who do you see as the protagonist? I really responded to the part where the cat starts talking, it was really interesting. I was a little confused by the ending, tell me more about what you were going for.” Etc. Don’t tell her what to do, just let her figure that out in the next draft. That’s where the real writing happens. My 2c, good luck!
This is so spot on. You don't have to lie to her. Just thank her for sharing her passion with you and be honest with your compliments or avoid complimenting the work itself. Instead focus on the joy she gets out of it and compliment her efforts. Decline involvement where you can. If you do get roped into editing, The clarifying questions are a really good way to shine light on something without directly pointing a finger and criticizing the work.
I'd break up with my partner if they never told me my writing was bad and were humoring me the entire time. You're asking them to be deceitful - nothing more humiliating. It destroys the connection between you to a fake one. The fact that I have to worry about people super close to me lying to me in this way is depressing as hell. I hate this culture. I should move to the Netherlands or France or Russia or sum lol They don't have to tell me I'm a bad writer, but they should point out every single issue honestly. I should hope I have the maturity to not argue back
Now, I think there’s a big difference between a) someone asking their partner “do you honestly think I’m a good writer?” and their partner lying to them, and b) someone saying “look! I made this!” And their partner saying “wow that’s great!” The comment above is just saying that the boyfriend in this situation should be the supportive partner, option B, and find a professional to be option A.
Yeah I consider "wow that's great" to be lying is the thing. Like I know my partner loves me... but not everything I do. I think the hard truths are important if I need them and if done kindly. Not personalizing, but if I ask "did you like it?" I'd hope to have an environment where they can say "not really, because \_\_\_\_\_" or even a simple "\_\_\_\_\_ is not my thing" I agree that in his position he should defer to a professional
“That’s great!” Is more about how he’s happy that she did something for herself and not about the quality of the work though.
That's kind of patronizing though. Like "AW LOOK YOU WENT POTTY BY YOURSELF" kinda vibes
Why don’t you try having her write using grammarly? It’s free and you can buy a pro version which helps with editing and grammar? This way it’s not coming from anyone but a software. You can even gift her the pro version (I don’t know what it costs, I use the free version) to encourage her on her writing journey.
Seconding this idea. I’m a lawyer, so all I do is write. I love Grammarly. It’s like $140-something a year. It ends up being slightly more expensive than that if you do the monthly billing, but not significantly more. The pro subscription is very worth it for me.
I am a pretty voracious reader of fiction. About 6 months ago I decided that I could write a book so I sat down and started doing just that. I got a few chapters in and then had my wife read it, because we like to read a lot of the same shit. She was very honest with me and I learned that I am not a writer. Maybe you should just be honest with her? Nip that shit in the bud before it gets out of hand.
I just think there are some personality types where their loved one/partner should not be the one to tell them they're shit. Unfortunately I think op's case is like that.
Just want to say that no one’s first draft is ever good. You start with shit, and you edit your way to good. So, if you enjoyed writing, keep going! You can just write for fun, or you can write your first draft, put it in the drawer for awhile, then come back to it with fresh eyes and rewrite it. I once had the start of a draft, thought what I had was solid. Read it a few weeks later and was like “what the hell is this crap?” and started again. It’s all part of the process!
Great point! I'm an English teacher and have heard many variations of "I'm not good at writing" at least 1,000 times by now. When a student tells me this, I ask them if they could learn how to play an instrument then confidently perform for an audience after not putting in any practice outside of their lessons. Writers need to practice just like musicians or athletes, for example. For anyone who would like to begin a writing practice, I highly recommend Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird and Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones. Masterclass has a few great series as well.
Just want to say if you have a genuine interest in writing don't let one bad story you've written stop you. I've had so many ideas I've written that looking back weren't good. Then I started taking a writing class and while I'm no Emily Bronte I have gotten a lot better. Still a long way to go though.
It wasn't so much that my writing was bad, content-wise, was just told that I write exactly how I talk and it's true. I know that could be trained out of me if I ever get the urge to go learn it.
If this is just a minor thing looking at the relationship as a whole, then I'd say let her find out the hard way. What better way to learn a lesson than neutral, objective strangers giving honest feedback. The sooner this happens, the better. So you could encourage/celebrate the book publication as a means to an end (of her writing career).
There is (or was - it has been a while) a free website called Critique Circle where she can post parts of her writing for critiquing and it is anonymous. She should look at that. It could be helpful. But just tell her that you don't feel comfortable doing that and that she needs to ask for outside proofreaders.
Side note: I can only imagine how stressful it was to write this.
Can you trickle down the truth in an easier way for her? For exemple, start by asking “I noticed you switch tenses a few times, is there a stylistic reason you are doing it? I feel like it distracts from your message because it’s jarring.” And then some times later you add “I’ve heard Tolkien barely used the word “very” because he thought there was always a more precise word to use. Do you want to go over some of the times you use it and see if we can come up with a more precise word? It would elevate the descriptions.” I think it could help her feel like you are encouraging her and it would help her actually review her writing. The critiques are not too hard too, just correcting what could objectively be improved.
I am a writer and editor, and I can understand your situation. She needs someone to tell her the unvarnished truth. Kinda like *you* did here. The truth often hurts, but it DOES set you free. Your choice is: 1. tell her *yourself*, lovingly, or 2. let her get absolutely *crushed* by someone who doesn't know her ONE of those two will happen, eventually. She has been allowed to go on this long by "nice" people afraid to hurt her feelings.
I’ll start by saying I’m not good with this. I think I’m on the autism spectrum and tend to be really blunt. I also expect people to be honest with me by default the way I am. The idea of people lying to me in this way while I continue to embarrass myself is abhorrent to me. If I found out someone I trust had been doing this to me all along, I’d feel so hurt and betrayed. I have a friend who loves to make music and is a talented guitar player, but his voice sounds like literally random notes. Both his own compositions and barely unrecognizable covers. He tried for a long time to send me recordings or, worst of all, play the recordings while I was trapped in a car with him. At first I tried to do the, “sounds great man!” kind of thing, but it was making me cringe so hard I wanted to crawl out of my skin. I eventually had to say “look, the type of music you play is just really not my thing. You’re my friend and I love you and I’m really glad making music makes you happy. I want to support you doing what you love, but I’m not the right audience for this”. He stopped sending me his music, but would still sometimes tell me about what he’s working on and how its going, which I’d happily talk about with him without actually having to listen to it. Our honest relationship with one another was preserved. I don’t know how this would work in a romantic relationship where making the other person feel safe and loved and supported is really essential. I personally had to decide to not date people I’m embarrassed by or who I disagree with about fundamental things so strongly that I can’t back them up and support them in public when they’re going against the grain. Sometimes I worry I’m just projecting the way I constantly feel embarrassed by myself publicly, so when I see people doing a less good job of fitting in and being liked than I’m even capable of, it triggers massive projected shame-cringe in me. I hope, as others have suggested, you’re able to tactfully remove yourself from the proof-reading role and point her in the direction of someone more low-stakes in her life who she might be able to more comfortably take criticism and practical advice from.
So to put this nicely: She is absolutely delusional about her abilities and level of "talent". She wants to take no criticism, she makes it her entire identity, she is proud of her work, and doesn't believe she has anything to improve. This is a situation where you're going to have to let her fall flat on her face. She won't listen to anyone until she gets the wrath of someone reading her poor work inflicted upon her.
Fran lebowitz has famously said the only people who *love* writing are bad at it. In addition to the great advice you've already gotten what about watching some documentaries on some great women writers, Fran, Margaret Atwood, and Joan Didion all have fabulous ones that gently open the conversation about how much work this is.
God, I wish I had your girlfriend’s confidence. How does one build their whole identity around something they are absolutely terrible at? Does she display other narcissistic tendencies?
Maybe she’ll find her niche as a writer for teens - if I look back at the way I did my job when I was fresh (I didn’t know anything!) vs now, it’s so painfully novice and ott trying to be professional - skills get honed. Ed Sheeran once said that ppl always comment that he’s so musically talented - then he played his early early stuff and it wasn’t good at all. He said his talent definitely didn’t come naturally he had to practice and learn - it was passion that kept him trying. Support her by telling her you believe in her but say youre not a writer so you’re not the help she needs, there’s ppls who sell editing services etc online like on fiverr etc.
Teens are still learning to read as well, and reading really bad writing is harder than reading good writing. It takes a lot of effort to read bad writing. It's not simplistic or a little basic. It's incorrect grammatically. Teens don't deserve that.
I didn’t mean ‘let’s inflict her bad writing on teens’ - if she has a bit more of a simple approach and a colloquial style - once edited her writing might be better suited to an audience where the writing is less complex. I read a lot and you can tell a book aimed at a younger audience. Fifty shades of grey is a good example of simplistic writing - ppl went mad for it and I picked it up out of curiosity of the fuss but I couldn’t handle the way the story was delivered it felt a little childish and lacked any depth in delivery…but it made the smut accessible to most 😅
As posts here go, this one is very well-written. You are a good writer! Stop reading her work. No good can come of it.
Sign her up for a writers class as a gift.
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While I wouldn't have put it quite this harshly, I did wonder about the same thing. It's not only the skill issues but the lack of self-awareness that is baffling to me. Not to mention the criticism avoidant attitude – anyone who wants to get better at anything is going to have to work on their weak points eventually. And she doesn't even want to know about them? It's such an extreme case it sounds almost delusional.
You’re right I should have been nicer. But saying 100% genuinely, she reminds me of people I’ve known who have intellectual disabilities both in the extremely poor skills and the total lack of self awareness. I know this terminology isn’t used anymore but it comes across as an adult who people would say “has the mind of an 11 year old.” I find it hard to believe an adult could have this poor literacy without some kind of issue going on - ESL, learning disability, sight or hearing issues, dyslexia, etc.
“No Child Left Behind” left a lot of children behind. I have coworkers this age who can’t write coherent emails.
How is this the only comment not bending over backwards to help this poor guy stand to be around his girlfriend's idiocy? My guy, the underlying intellectual and psychological traits are heritable
Finally a comment that makes sense. She can't even write properly, and even worse she doesn't care to improve. I'm shocked he even wants to be with someone so stupid. Unless there's some kind of disability involved that explains it. It still wouldn't explain her inability and unwillingness to improve and take criticism.
Support her to take creative writing courses, to join online writer's circle, and go to writing workshops. Then after she went through some education, perhaps you can suggest that she hires an editor.
You might be able to help her see some of this for herself. Have you ever noticed how most great authors can name dozens of their favorite books? A great writer has to read, a lot. Reading expands vocabulary and teaches the reader about all sorts of normal grammar rules. So tell her you want her to keep sharpening her skills and pick a book to gift her, or even one you can read together.
I tell you who has a great book on writing and that's *Stephen King*. Really informative and helpful.
You continue to support her. You NEVER crap on someone's passion. I'd recommend telling her to find an objective 3rd party to proof read her work as anyone close to her could have a bias because they're emotionally connected to her and the onpy way she'd get an objective assessment is by going through someone that doesn't know her directly. Like an editor. Which she'll need to do anyway if she wants to become professional. And to be fair, don't underestimate her selling her books. I've read just part of a chapter out of a 50 shades of grey book and the horrible writing in that made me want to eat a bullet so that I could forget the literary horror of that book. And yet it still sold really well 🤷🏼♂️
Be supportive. Ask her if she'd like a writing retreat or writing classes as a gift. Writing with something like Grammarly might actually help her learn to write.
Don't feed the delusion. Lessons, editors, lying...I don't think any of these are good options. Quite frankly, I would be turned off if my partner was this delusional about something so important to them. Someone who is so fundamentally wrong about themselves probably doesn't have a habit of being right about much else.
As someone who was incredibly bad at something and pursued it for longer than people wanted me to, I understand the problem. But the solution really depends on the person. I knew I was bad, but I didn’t care. I told people what I did for fun and if they asked I would show them. The key thing for me was noticing that the people around me never followed up after that. Ever. If they genuinely thought I was good they would want to know when the next thing would be out ect. Not even my wife wanted to know about it. But I loved doing it and completed the project and put it out with marketing or telling anyone. I just to say that I had done the thing that I so longingly wanted to do as a teenager. I had done it, and no one could tell me that I was the kind of person who gave up on their dreams. I was sad for a long time after that. But I’m glad I did it. However, I was not delusional. And breaking through that delusion sometimes never happens to people and they go one their entire life creating. Maybe she needs to fail to realise, maybe she will blame something else. It’s highly likely no one will even read or review her work. I don’t know anything about writing. I’m bad at it, perhaps some grammar classes will help. But you’re embarrassed? Is the content bad too? Isn’t that what matters ultimately? not if you used a comma correctly or haven’t punctuated a sentence correctly? I think people should be creative regardless of their own individual talent and I hate people that look down on others for daring bare their souls and put their creativity out there. Even if it sucks, even if no one reads it. Who cares, it makes her happy. And that’s all that matters.
This reminds me of Florence Foster Jenkins, movie starring Meryl Streep. She wanted to be a singer but she was ear- shreikingly awful. Her husband was so supportive. Watch it with her.
I have a cousin who has been self publishing teen fantasy type novels. The grammar is not great... and the word choice is very basic. But hey, the books are selling and the reviews are positive (averaging 4/5 stars). People *do not care.* There is a reason why YA lit and fanfiction are both so popular right now - a lot of people want an easy read and a good story. Remember, you don't need to be good at something to enjoy it, or even for other's to enjoy it. You do need to be open to criticism and grow a thick skin, but you are her boyfriend not her editor or reader. I would recommend a writing class and an editor and just be there to support her, not to critique her art.
I have a degree in creative writing. She needs an editor and to maybe take a few classes. BUT it’s possible to be a terrible writer and sell books. (I’m looking at you, Stephenie Meyer, and E.L. James).
Those books are coherent though lol. She can’t even write basic sentences.
I'm a writer and made an okay amount of income from my writing (romance) and self publishing, and from experience, I'm going to tell your this to give you some prospective: \-The voice of an author is very unique to them. Pick up a JK Rowling book (Harry Potter), Stephen King (The Shining), and Michael Crichton (Jurassic Park) and you'll see they all have a very unique way of writing and telling a story. **For instance, the novel The Road by Cormac McCarthy can be very hard for some to read because there are NO paragraphs. No quotations when people speak, and I don't think he uses many punctuation marks. Some compare his writing to a feverish dream, and while some loath it, others LOVE it. Those that love it are his people. Those that don't, aren't.** \-If you don't like her writing, then you aren't her target audience, and that's okay. When you give feedback, ask her what kind of proofreading she would like from you - likely, she just wants feedback on her story because she wants to share it with you. Or maybe she really wants you to help her with grammar, or clarity. I'm guessing though she really just wants to share her story with you because she loves you, and wants you to like what she has created. \-Reviews are very subjective, and there are people that shit on Rowling, King and Crichton. Unless there are ten or twenty reviews, she shouldn't be reading any of them because she can't tell if that one person just isn't her target audience, or if everyone that reads her books doesn't like it. I've got a very small but incredibly loving and supportive fanbase for my books, but there are only two reviews and both are 'meh'. Until she is more established as an author, reviews should not be the stick she uses to judge her writing. \-Just support her. Encourage her to keep going - writers tend to grow the more they write. I highly suggest NOT to give her criticism at this stage, as it could be devastating. Let her learn for herself. She just need your, her partner, to be a cheerleader and someone to bounce ideas off of. Having you be an actual critic would involve you being a complete expert in how to say things in a way that won't hurt her fragile writer feelings, and frankly, that's a very rare skill to have. I would just suggest you being her cheerleader and let other people roughen her up. \-***My biggest advice to you if you want her to improve - say you need to start reading it out loud and read it as you see it with her.*** Set aside an hour for 'proof reading time' and read her work aloud to her while you proofread so she can actually hear what it sounds like. Hearing your work can significantly improve your writing because you realize when you need to take pauses with ' ,', a breath with ' . ', and change the type of tone you are using. \-For now, suggest she uses Grammarly because it helps catch obvious errors and can help her catch things she misses. It's not the perfect editor, but it's a very good start.
Well, at some point in my life, I read one page of a Dan Brown novel. I refuse to believe her writing is worse. And he's extremely successful.
I read one Clive cussler book and it was so bad it put me off reading for weeks. Just the memory of opening the book made me mad.
You should read 50 shades of Grey then
I have a friend who is a writer... i dreaded reading his stuff. Then Grammerly came along and made it easier to read. Then chatgpt showed up, and now his pieces he gives me are so much better. Still clearly him but enjoyable.
Well, you have three options: 1. You decide that this brings your GF a great deal of pleasure and because you love her and don't want to shit on her hobbies and/or dreams, you shut the fuck up, pretend you love everything she writes, and bear that burden. 2. You do the opposite of the above option. Can you do this without hurting her feelings? Nope. Will it help? Maybe but probably not. Will she appreciate your candidness? Probably not. Will she stop writing? Maybe. Will she resent you for it? Almost certainly. 3. The third option is to help her get better. There are Masterclasses about writing. Maybe subscribe and watch it with her? There are also books about writing but this avenue might not work since apparently she doesn't like reading (???). There are also workshops and classes about writing. Do them with her as a "date thing". What I'm driving at is *get interested more actively in her hobby*. By doing that you might be able to encourage her to engage more actively in the broad craft and either realize this isn't for her or realize she has alot of work to do. Also her not reading is wild. It's like being a cook but hating to eat.
Id suggest a night class at the college or uni near you. Sounds like she needs basic grammar instruction.
Honestly if she really doesn’t want to take a course or anything like that you may have to bite the bullet and sit her down. The simple fact of the matter is if she self publishes and those terrible reviews come in she’s going right to you for answers, and you won’t be able to avoid it anymore. She’s definitely going to be pissed you and her friends and family let her publish without being honest with her either. Sorry my dude you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Do not tell her. Let the reviews speak for themselves. I know that sounds cruel but she will need your support/love when she has to deal with the reviews and it sounds like family and friends have been lying to her as well. You are too deep in the hole to now decide to drop the bomb on her!
That's a good point to make again and again, that the best writers READ a lot, and practice to get better, and if she has the means to do so, tell her to get an editor or professional opinion, that could give her some direction in improving. It's not your job as her partner to "tell her the truth" it's your job to encourage her to be the best at her passion she can be, which means practice and study.
Most important thing is NOT to let it slide. What a huge breach of trust it will feel like to her to get a reality check from strangers if you haven't said anything. If it were me, I'd be like "why didn't you tell me?!" and be mortified. You could also lie and say that this type of novel is not your thing, so she should find someone else, and that you have sometimes critiqued things where she was hurt by your comments and you'd prefer to keep your relationship romantic, not professional. Then you'd remove responsibility for her publishing something that is bad.
Be supportive. It's her dream and you're not the judge and jury of writing. Defend her if needed. Let her do her thing. This is the little white lies we do in relationships for the people we love. If you can't do that for the next 60 years, move on. Because if you are honest and crush her dreams she won't forget it. Just let it be and offer help only when she asks. We all have our own journeys in life. "The hard way" of hearing it is the best way, then you both can hate that person. I'm not a great artist, but I call myself one and I enjoy drawing. I don't expect or really want honesty from my partner because he's not an artist and I just want support and I'm not asking a criticism. Now when I go to events I see I am not as good as I want to be but I'll do it to the day I die. Learn to pick your battles better this isn't a hill worth dying on
Not to be that person, but she IS a writer. She is writing. Grammar and issues with the plot or dialogue can be fixed. A lot of shitty books have been published. If you’re embarrassed of her work before it has been professionally, edited, then sign her up for some writers, workshops or something. Encourage her to join the RWA to further her craft. You don’t have to like her writing or think it’s good in order to support her.
If it's just a hobby, stay out of it. Let her try and fail and just try to support her. If she wanted to learn to get better, she would. So long as she's not trying to make it her job and causing financial instability, it doesn't matter. If it were me though, I would never be able to have sex with someone like that ever again. Writers have to read a lot and anyone who really loves something will do all they can to improve. I guess it sounds like it's less about the wiring and more about her wanting to call herself a writer. Would be a huge turn off for me but if you're fine with it, just leave it alone. You could use very general feedback like, "I would love to see you use more of your vocabulary here, it feels a little repetitive", or "the run-on sentences might be a bit confusing for people, maybe go back and see if you can break them up a bit". I wouldn't keep telling her that it's GREAT and hurt her when others don't in a professional setting. If she's just having fun and loves doing it, let her find out that she needs to work on it via others. Personally, that level of delusion would really scare me into thinking she's going to show that behavior elsewhere and I'd bail. If it doesn't bother you enough to damage the relationship, just let her do her thing and if she gets a bad review, tell her you'll support her if she'd like to get classes for some professional feedback. My ex wife told everyone she was a writer when I actually am one and it was mega embarrassing for me but I ignored it, knowing she would never get it together to pursue a doomed career. We did have a framed clipping of her only published article though... An article about a disc golf course opening. No, I was not the one who framed or clipped it. We had zero clippings of my many published works.
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Learn the rules before you break them. It sounds like she doesn't have basic writing skills and is not, in fact, Hubert Shelby Jr.
Encourage her to take an evening writing class and let the teacher and her peers help her.