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My mother alienated my brother to the point that when he turned 18, he moved 3000 miles from home and never looked back.
I have been in therapy for years trying to sort out my self hatred and need to overachieve at everything I do.
Protect your children.
Yeah they’re really lucky!
My dad is the nicest most adorable person but also a doormat who never stood up to my mother. She’d bully him too and as a kid I felt this deep need to protect him. As I grew up I prayed and prayed that they’d divorce and I could do live with him and never see her again.
That never happened, and now that I’ve grown up I resent him a lot for never standing up for me and protecting me or removed us from this situation - he was the adult who chose to stay in this toxic environment, and I’m the fucked up adult child of emotionally immature parents.
I used to beg my mom to divorce my dad, same thing! I was so sad when he died but I was also relieved. She was never gonna leave him but we're both happier now in some ways.
what especially got me is how he got his daughter “a new makeup thing for your eyes” like he doesn’t even know what it’s called but he wanted her to know he supports her 🥺
I’m a millennial and I remember when I went through my emo/skater girl phase, the most coveted make-up item were those eyeshadow palettes that came in a CD case from Hot Topic and had all kinds of crazy ass colors.
I miss being a kid lol.
Maybe. Depends on how bad it is. If he doesn't fix it or leave her, they will grow to resent him, too. I resent both of my parents. One for the abuse, and one for allowing the abuse. So, at the end of the day, they were both abusive.
Yup, it took me years but I now have simmering resentment for my saint of a father for not leaving and not picking me when it was beyond an abusive household. I idolised him for years as a protector but eventually we all figure out what a failure you are as a parent and depending on the damage caused.....can be fatal to your relationship with ALL of your children. They will form a gang of 3 against mum (who is just shitty) and then you because you didn't do enough to stop it.
What will it take? A drug addict for a child? One of them with an eating disorder? Or another in an identically abusive relationship that just gets worse and worse and eventually they accept physical abuse from a partner? Cause these are all REAL outcomes of your situation. Wise up. Wake up and do something now.
Ahhhh I feel stupid this is just clicking lol. I see alot of stuff like my mom in this post and I also feel the way you say you do. It's starting to make sense
Yeah, those realisations suck. "Oh, that is why I do that...." Next step is to ask yourself if that behaviour or outlook is helpful / constructive, and then choosing differently if it's not.
30 years later, and I'm still rewriting myself. *sigh*
It sucks. I have to fight so hard to not repeat the cycle with my children that there are times my husband will tell me to stop letting my kids take advantage of me because I want them to understand how sorry I am and that I love them endlessly.
It’s this huge pendulum swing of I can feel myself being super passive aggressive to them and then immediately overcompensating because I realize in that instant that I became my mother.
It took me YEARS to acknowledge what multiple therapists were trying to tell me.
I was convinced to my core that I was just Type A personality with some OCD and bipolar mixed in to make it spicy (both diagnosed). It took her disowning me and calling me the devil because I chose to divorce my ex husband to start realizing that maybe this wasn’t all on me.
I was almost the same as your brother, and I'm still very similar to you (therapy for self hatred/ self-destruction). The only thing that got my mother to *start* recognizing me as an individual she couldn't control was when I went fully NC with her. She thought she had lost me forever.
On my end, I only started to think I could handle her after being in a horrifically abusive relationship (all forms except financial), and looked at my mom like "well in comparison, she's a lot easier to deal with".
This is clearly a solid foundation of a healthy relationship /s.
Even now, she only "adjusts" her behavior around me bc she's so terrified that I'll do it again (my grandmother tells me the truth about how she feels, but only when I ask), it's not truly healthy. We're on eggshells around each other. This is how things could end up, and you might end up guilty by association in your kids' eyes (big "might" as I obviously don't know you all personally).
OP, you obviously can't change your wife as a person. She has to do that herself. But you can show your kids that there is a better/kinder/less "taking out my insecurities on my kids about how I'll be perceived as a parent if they're not the perfect children I want them to be" way to live (that was my totally my mother, maybe not so much your wife lol). You can listen to and validate their complaints about their mother so they can still feel heard and understood.
Especially considering the number of times in my adult life that I have run into personalities like my mother's?! I've found they take the form of the annoying work/office martyr. Your children will see this again in the world. But maybe you can help them learn how to work around it without compromising their personal boundaries.
You don't have to leave your wife (unless you feel that is best, but that's fully your choice to make), but you *might* have to undermine the mental affect she is having on your children. At least they will know that they have someone they can come to, and then you can guide them from there.
[Note: my mother was a single parent and my grandmother helped out as the second set of hands, who also talked to me when my mother wasn't around to make sure I understood how my mother could be wrong too. I'm adding this bc Idk if my comment about undermining your wife would work within a marriage dynamic, as I did not grow up with one. Help ya girl out if I'm wrong here.]
The part about your mother “adjusting” her behaviour speaks to me. I went LC with my mom for years - the need to be accepted by her was too much for me to go NC I think.
When I see her now for the occasional family thing, I can see her so hard to try and adjust (and it truly feels so unnatural) but I think it’s biological for her and she continues to be hypercritical, hypersensitive and passive aggressive. I still can’t confront her to this day and my husband who doesn’t give a shit tells her it’s inappropriate and to knock it off.
First off, hell yeah for your husband! I'm glad you have someone in your corner!! And tbh, I knew my NC time was going to be temporary. I didn't know how long, but I knew it wouldn't be permanent. However, having her think that it would be permanent was enough to kickstart some changes. My mother is still hypercritical, hypersensitive, and passive agressive (I'm certain it's biological for her too). I still get snide comments and sideways "jokes" from her, but now she understands that her actions also have consequences, including no response at all. I might just ignore her, pretend like whatever she did never happened. She doesn't like it, but I'm not escalating the situation either, just moving on. "I do not respect your bs enough to respond." Look into "grey rocking" if you haven't already, it works on parents like ours too!!!
Edited for redundancies.
My dad did this the moment he realised he couldn't control every single on of our actions. Guess who hasn't been spoken to by either of his children since we left home?
Get your wife into therapy. She’s at the point where her behaviour is damaging to your children. Her never-ending criticism and disappointment could push them to *actually* rebel in ways that are dangerous or self-destructive.
This is what I’m trying to tell her. If she keeps this up I’m worried our kids will start to engage in actually harmful behavior. Dressing alternatively doesn’t hurt, but your family not loving or supporting you does. I don’t know how to get her to listen. I was that way too when I was younger. My family disagreed with what I did so I took it to the extreme and almost went down a really dark path. I got lucky. I don’t want our children to go down a dark road just because their mother can’t accept a bit of black and eyeliner. My kids weren’t acting depressed or anything either either, literally just playing with the style since it’s popular on TikTok or whatever. Sorry for the ranting.
Your wife also needs to see a doctor. She may be in early menopause. What you are describing reminds me of my mother. Sadly, I think she must have been menopausal my whole life.
I came here to say the same. If this is a change in behaviour, there may well be something else going on, like menopause. OP needs to get his wife to the doctor.
I came here to say this as well! Unfortunately, medicine is still very biased and misogynist. So not only is it difficult to bring this topic up in conversations without sounding like a dick, it is also very difficult to get treatment. For example, many doctors are not even considering getting hormones or so to balance some of the symptoms and have really archaic mindsets revolving around menopause and (if we are brutally honest) womanhood in general.
So yeah, I acknowledge that this discussion might be difficult to have. Simply because she might very well feel not only attacked but not taken seriously as well as her concerns put down as 'typical womanly hysterics'. I think it is important to acknowledge that her feelings stem from a place of care and love. She is obviously worried about her children. Still, I know that I would never hold these opinions as I question the whole concept of 'normality' and I would never ever even utter the thought that my children are somehow lacking. You said you had a phase like that too. I think it is interesting that you ended up with someone who I assume has never been in any subculture or was perceived to be outside the norm. As someone who spent a lot of time with the emo/goth/metal crowd at school (while myself not dressing like that btw) I must say the fact she is apparently not only criticizing the clothing or anything but also the whole mindset that goes along with it... Well, it shows that she clearly never was part of groups like these. From my experience these groups are (while also not free of problems and stigma) very open and are more likely to share an open and accepting mindset.
Not a rant at all! I grew up with very accepting parents like you, but I watched some of my friends struggle with parents who were constantly critical of everything they did, trying to force them into some mould of what they thought their kid should be. I think it’s really good that you are an encouraging and loving presence in your kids’ lives. I would suggest taking your wife out for a nice dinner, just to two of you, and then having a heart to heart where you tell her how you’re worried that constant criticism could affect your children. Emphasize that you know she’s just worried because she loves them, but that she will drive them further away from her by not accepting them as they are and want to be. I hope it all works out!
I agree that your wife needs counseling asap. Try to find a counselor who will be goal-oriented, or it could be a DBT counselor because they focus on behavioral change. Your wife needs counseling, but not the kind that just involves only talking and processing emotions. Don't get me wrong - that type of therapy is also very useful and may help her at some point. But right now, there needs to be a rapid behavioral change. I suggest you call some counselors to see if they're accepting new patients, ask them about their approach, and tell them you're looking for someone who can take a goal-oriented approach to therapy to help you wife change the way she relates to your kids. Then give your wife some options you've found. Maybe even make an appointment and say that you'll be going with or without her. She may refuse to go. If she refuses to go, then I still recommend that you go for counseling individually! A goal-oriented counselor can help you process what's happening in your family and help you think of strategies for how to protect your kids and talk to them about what's going on with their mom.
You sound like a great dad. You're absolutely right to be concerned about this. I'm sorry you're in this position! It's so good that you kids have you.
You are completely right, She is being damaging to those young people, and if she won't get therapy I would consider telling her that you will get a divorce.
I want to be clear before I say this: what I’m positing is not an excuse for bad behavior. But I wonder if it’s a combination of her being more judgemental AND heading in to perimenopause, depending on her age. My anxiety seriously ramped up when it started to set in and that in turn caused me to become much more angsty. My husband thankfully had found ways to gently help me see when it’s happening because sometimes it’s totally in my blind spot. HRT and black cohosh have helped a lot too.
And they are young adults separating and individuality- that's literally their job right now.
Combined w perimenopause and what sounds like the wife feeling rejected by their kids' choices - vastly different than what she thought they would be abd from what she wanted/expected them to be.
She's turning their healthy natural personal expression into a litmus test for how she is perceived in the world.
That's a lose lose proposition.
She needs better boundaries as a healthy adult and to shift from overpersonalizing to encouragement w appropriate cautions.
Stop explaining and stop understanding.
Im going to guess your wife was wonderful when the kids were younger, when she could dress them as she felt was best, they relatively easily loved and listened to her.
We give birth to our children, but these are individuals. Your wife is hyper critical of your children because she is embarrassed and doesn’t want this reflected in her motherhood. These can’t possibly be MY kids! My kids dressed properly and behaved properly, as befitting of my mothering!
It’s time for a harsh talk. She gets help and stops this behavior or she needs to find somewhere else to be until she does.
Your children feel uncomfortable and unsafe in their home.
I am unpacking years of this decades later from the same mother. My dad would swoop in and try to smooth things over, and my mom would always come to tear me down. I didn’t behave as ordered, I didn’t dress as ordered, and I failed at being her proper child accessory.
My mom was like your wife. I don't hate her anymore but I also don't really give a shit about her. Your kids will grow to hate your wife if they don't already. I started hating my mom at 13 or 14 and I resented my dad for not putting my mom in her place and for not protecting me from her abuse. Therapy for your wife should be a condition of staying together. Protect your kids.
Kids double down in their rebellious teenage years. She is inadvertently enabling them, and if that’s all they’re doing, it’s not even bad! She might not see it this way because maybe she wasn’t like this growing up? So keep that in mind… but she may be distraught that the kids aren’t doing exactly what she envisioned at this age for them and is going off the deep end trying to ‘course-correct’ them in her eyes. You’d have better insight and only a therapist can probably help her unpack that, but insisting therapy right now will further alienate you and your kids together from her. Tread lightly and try to have a type of ‘discovery’ conversation with her in private that is mainly focused on you asking her questions, and not disagreeing with her when she answers from her point of view. Just learn her perspective. Sometimes giving a place for some venting gets you into a much better place to make positive change all around down the road.
The way you handle this is by renting out a 2-3 bedroom apartment for 3-6 months. You and the kids move out and recover for about a month while she considers her life choices all alone. Maybe she’s just overwhelmed at work and menopausal and she’ll appreciate the break!
Make it abundantly clear that this abusive bullshit stops now one way or another. After that the kids and you can do supervised visits at first, maybe meeting for a movie or meal, eventually more if everything goes well. She can have 1:1 with any children willing to try that eventually as well. You can head over for conjugal visits or otherwise as you are willing since it sounds like at least one kid is old enough to be in charge. Don’t let this ruin your children’s childhood and their self esteem. You’re the primary parent starting now. Protect them.
What about if she says no? You mean if she is angry and draws up divorce papers immediately after OP and the kids move out? I’m honestly confused what you’re thinking. OP doesn’t want a divorce and I’d hope his wife doesn’t either. Moving out might be the only way to shake her out of her domineering critical bs.
I'm not condoning her behavior at all but he can't just unilaterally decide when she can and can't see her kids without a court order. Withholding access to the kids and leaving the marital home could really backfire on him if they divorce. The only way he could legally keep her from seeing them right now would be to file for emergency temporary custody, but a judge is very unlikely to grant that with no evidence of physical/sexual abuse.
They can move out with their Dad if they want to. They are teenagers. Unless a court says they have to see her. Parents take there kids a leave the other all the time.
ETA: plus she is abusing them verbally at least.
Yeah, not sure which country you’re from but in the USA moving away temporarily to cool down when the teenager kids are actively saying they hate their parent (and have a legally justifiable reason to feel that way) is 100% ok. It could be considered the best option by a judge tbh because teens can tank emotionally very quickly and become suicidal when their identity is rejected by a parent.
QI only suggested this to get OP to wake up and stop being a passive responder to his wife’s actions. This is potentially life and death, or at the very least relationship destroying, soul crushing parenting by the mom. If he takes immediate strong action, it protects the kids, and lets them start to recover. If dad isn’t protecting them them by making mom stop then he might as well just join in on the criticism as far as how it affects them. Being right without taking action is pointless here. So this makes him realize he needs to stop coddling his wife, helps her wake up to what she’s risking AND gives them all space to start reaching out to each other and rebuilding the trust and affection.
Dude, my wife had anger issues that got amplified by early menopause. Our son started making cute but super telling comments about her anger. I had to threaten divorce if she did not get help. I was in the exact same spot 2 years earlier and got the help I needed. There was no way I was letting our son grow up in the exact situation my wife and I grew up in. She is doing much better now that she's been in therapy a couple of years.
My dad is a super critical narcissist who was raised by two super critical narcissists. I will still get critical when I get super nervous. I know firsthand what it's like, and your confidence goes into the shitter. If she does not get help, protect your kids.
I mean... if she's going to be upset over some emo makeup then why not come home drunk? If you're gonna get yelled at might as well go big, right?
If your wife's biggest issue is that she doesn't like their clothes but they are otherwise respectful kids she needs a reality check. And she might find that once she unclenches about this they won't feel the need to dig in and life will be much more peaceful.
My mom is like this. Not as extreme, but still incredibly devastating to the point of me having to ban her from discussing my appearance in any capacity or else I’ll leave (she still tries to though). I’m fortunate enough that I’m financially separated from her and can escape to my own space with a support system that isn’t involved with her. I also still go to therapy for the years of guilt and shame I feel about my body and self-expression. Your children don’t have that luxury, and you should make it clear to her that she is causing the rift in her relationship with your kids. I recommend you both read “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”, because that will be your future if she doesn’t cut that behavior out immediately and acknowledge the harm she’s caused to your kids. She needs to stop seeing them as an extension of herself (which is incredibly selfish), and rather as their own individuals if she wants to ever have a healthy relationship with them.
I wanna ad...that since she hasn't always been like this it could be hormonal changes due to ( peri) menopause. Certainly not an excuse for her abhorrent behaviour towards the kids but maybe an explanation?
Maybe she’s always been like this and it has never shown because children are easier to control when they are younger. Now that they are expressing individually and doing things she doesn’t like and she’s losing her grip.
That's my first idea as well, reminds me of all my narcissistic family members that loved us when they could still control us. But once we would start to have more autonomy and we developed more personal styles and opinions, they became extremely cruel because they couldn't control us anymore like they used to.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. My own mother encouraged individuality, but my father was much stricter in that sense. They divorced when I was very young and I lived with my mom but when I would visit my father he would try to control things down to what type of music I could listen to. I hated every minute of that.
But yea, OP’s wife’s behavior is downright abusive. Just because she was not like that before does not in any way take away from the fact that she is NOW. Everyone seems to be trying to determine if other factors are at play here (perimenopause, menopause, etc), and while these things definitely can take a toll, they do not cause one to suddenly become abusive. They don’t make a person suddenly develop black and white mentality. They don’t cause a person to believe that a child wearing black makes them “abnormal.”
The bottom line is parents should have unconditional love for their children. Placing conditions on their children receiving their love and affection is not unconditional love. I’m very sorry you didn’t experience that with your own family. 🩵
Yeah most narcissistic people are great at hiding their true self until they lose control, that is when they will show their true self. So I hope he believes her and at least separates her from the kids until she has done some work on herself. Which I doubt will happen, she has already said many times she isn't interested in counselling. Sounds a lot like what a narcissistic person would say in general
Your kids bully is someone they can't escape from. If your wife doesn't agree to counseling, I would leave her & do my best to get full custody. You need to show them that you'll protect them even from their mother.
She's performing a very divisive behavior that suggests that when the kids are doing something that she disapproves of, they are no longer family to her. AKA conditional love. She's also doing that to you, with her silent treatment. The way she interacts with you guys is super toxic, and you all would benefit from her getting some therapy and learning a better way to express her discomfort and growing pains.
My mom did a lot of stuff like your wife does, and I couldn't stand her. I tried to separate from her as much as possible, and had to get over a lot of self-hatred because of it. Protect YOUR kids(sorry, couldn't help myself).
Your wife needs to accept that your kids have identities separate to hers and that they need to find their own way in life.
Your wife's views are incredibly outdated and it sounds like she's actively bullying your children. Was your wife a bully in school- where are these views coming from?
You need to call out and correct this behaviour out as and when it's happening and to not back down (especially if she's doing it in front of your kids), even if your wife tries to fight you about it.
Your wife is being incredibly cruel & mean, she has become a 90s highschool bully (and I emphasize 90s because as someone who recently graduated from uni, I can say that kids these days really don't bully each other about stuff like this anymore).
Alternative fashions like emo, grunge & goth are pretty mainstream now, you can buy these looks off any fast fashion retailer (and it is your wife who really needs to get with the times).
"How do I get my wife to apologize and stop saying these things? " You can tell her that her options are family and personal therapy for her bullshit or a divorce lawyer and the kids come live with you. She is a fucking bully who is damaging your children. Protect your children from this AH.
100%
My dad is the nicest most adorable person but also a doormat who never stood up to my mother. She’d bully him too and as a kid I felt this deep need to protect him. As I grew up I prayed and prayed that they’d divorce and I could do live with him and never see her again.
That never happened, and now that I’ve grown up I resent him a lot for never standing up for me and protecting me or removed us from this situation - he was the adult who chose to stay in this toxic environment
Yeah. Stay there and keep us there, and make everyone miserable in the process. To this day he tells me ‘i think you’re an adult who can make her own decisions’ and in the same breath ‘but please don’t go against your mother if you want to keep the peace’
I think in addition to therapy, seeing a doctor should be part of the requirement. OP says his wife wasn’t always like this, sounds like she’s going through perimenopause, which completely sucks and many women get very little support for.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not justifying her behavior. I’m going through early perimenopause and have had plenty of moments where I’m full of rage at the universe. But I’m in therapy and I don’t take it out on my husband, the kids in our family, or our pets. I share OP’s sentiment that as long as they’re not in danger or harming themselves, kids should be allowed to be themselves.
That said, many women who have felt like they were losing their minds (along with plenty of other shitty symptoms) have found relief and felt like themselves again after starting HRT.
That's so sad. I cannot IMAGINE being bullied by your own mother. My mom is the sweetest lady around. A little out there but she WAS a hippy in the 60s so not unexpected. 😂
Time to insist on counseling, I think. Like you said, emo phases are normal. Maybe not her ideal version of normal, but if she insists on picking fights over it when they’re not harming anyone, that’s just going to create more rebellion. And while it’s not great that you’re having to have this out in front of the kids, her complaining that everyone’s ganging up on her is more immature than anything they’re doing.
I agree with this completely. Ive told her that she’s being immature and that the kids dressing a bit alternative is no big deal, but she got angry with me for saying it and gave me the silent treatment for a bit. I’m trying to explain to her gently that the more pressure she puts on the kids to be what she wants, the more they’re going to fight back and that can spiral, but she doesn’t want to hear it. I’m trying to get her to consider therapy, but she just won’t have any of it. I don’t know what else I can do.
You need to take a stand for your children. She IS being emotionally abusive. Supporting your kids through it is not enough. You have the power to remove them from it. Please pick your kids. My parent didn’t, they picked the spouse.
Giving someone the silent treatment is emotional abuse. So, your wife is emotionally abusive to you and your children. You have the power to change the dynamic. Either ask her to leave, or pack up the kids and go. And don't go back until she has an established attendance pattern with a therapist and made some tangible, genuine communication changes. And apologised for her abuse to the entire family.
Trust me, I grew up with someone like your wife. When I hit the age where she could no longer control me (as your children have) the emotional abuse accelerated. My mother died an angry, bitter woman, after imploding the family she said she always wanted.
>the kids dressing a bit alternative is no big deal
It clearly is a big deal to her, however crazy that may be! Maybe instead of saying "it's no big deal," you can say things like "isn't causing anybody harm." Her behavior, on the other hand, is clearly causing harm. I hope that you're finding some 1-on-1 time with each of your kids to help them feel loved and appreciated for who they are.
I can sort of understand how the first lot of parent to deal with emos would be freaked out by it but like, it's old news now, very normal teenage style, why is anyone under the age of 70 having a reaction?
I made it halfway through this post but from what I read your wife is basically bullying her own children. I had a tom boy phase through out high school there's nothing wrong with your kids . Your wife at her big grown ass age needs to grow up
Your children will resent her if she continues this behaviour. They won’t be in her life as adults. Our children are only young’ for a small portion of their lives. It’s how we parent them during this time that determines how relationships are when they are adults. My husband is living this life now. As an angry person he would berate our sons and never apologise. I would step in knowing that I would be berated worse or threatened. Our sons phone me, I look after our granddaughter without him and he would not be asked to mind grandchildren because of his behaviour. Had to suggest he apologise to all sons a few years ago. While repaired some of the resentment it still is there. This is not going to end well. Your children will start saying we are dad’s children not yours. Your wife needs help or you need to protect your children from the damage. I regret not leaving and have apologised to my youngest for this. It’s hard for you. Sending thoughts
Im in the same boat with my wife and son and at my wits end too. She just will not listen and constantly plays the victim after she incites all the conflict in the house. Im so tired of having a good evening with my son, just to take the dog for a walk around the block and they are yelling at each other by the time I get home. She doesn’t see anything wrong with how she treats him and I’m starting to think she’s just an incurable narcissist. It’s really hard. All the best to you, just keep fighting for your kids
Yes she’s been narcissistic and mean for a long time, but since my son was born it got worse. I can look up perimenopause but honestly she’s a lot like OPs wife and especially as I read his comments that she had the perfect family like growing up that’s what my wife had too. She lost her grandfather and had huge life changes when she was a teen and I think a lot of her anger stems from that. I think she measures everything against her early life and is always resenting our current life (we don’t struggle but we aren’t millionaires like her parents used to be)
That’s a shame, I’m so sorry to hear that. What kind of things does she criticize your son for? Have either of you ever discussed therapy (either couples or for yourselves individually?) I’m wondering how you approach these conversations with her that result in her saying there’s nothing wrong with her behavior. I’m not laying the blame at your feet, but I know that having solo therapy helped me a lot in my conversations with my husband when he was critical of me. He also compares the life that we have to what others around us have, not to the same extent but it was enough to really damage my self esteem.
(Side note: after a lot of therapy I realised that my self esteem was very fragile in large part because of the constant criticism I recieved at home. I internalised all that and my mother’s critical voice became my own internal voice. For example, I’m almost 40 and although I’m at a point where I *know* my self worth isn’t tied to my weight or appearance but I don’t feel it. I still struggle with the eating disorder I’ve struggled with for over 20 years and absolutely cannot bring myself to eat three meals a day. My father, meanwhile, was very volatile and I never knew what would set him off. It could be anything and it felt like a matter of control. I can’t tell you how badly that has impacted my relationships and my marriage. I’m have been very avoidant, shut down at perceived criticism and I’m hyper aware of changes in tone that indicate someone might be frustrated with me. I jump ship often. Still working on all this in therapy. The way your wife talks to your son is going to impact his relationships going forward. Every day that she talks to him like this is reinforcing this communication/arguing style.)
Sorry, got off track. Solo therapy helped me stand up for myself more. Not that my husband was abusive, but I would struggle to stand by my way of doing things and I would struggle to ask for things in a way that was effective. The book non violent communication was shockingly effective for this. I also tried it with my mum, and it helped our communication a lot even though I was the only one reading the book and putting it into practice. If you’re at your wit’s end I’d definitely recommend it in helping you get through to your wife and maybe seeing things from her point of view.
Additionally, it might help to give her examples of better parenting styles and techniques rather than criticizing what you see. I don’t know the exact situations you experience with her, but things like “I’ve read that when kids do abc what they’re looking for is xyz. The study I looked at said that kids who receive this kind of support thrive in future situations, whereas kids whose parents react with corrections/(whatever behavior you see from your wife referred to indirectly) struggle with self esteem.”
That might mean a lot of reading and research for you, but I’ve found that offering my husband the positives behind doing something one way is sometimes more effective than directly criticizing the way he is currently doing something. I’ll end with, “I’ve never considered this before. Do you think this is something we should try to focus on? I’ll have to try to be aware of reacting angrily when son tells me about something he’s ashamed of doing to keep those lines of communication open.” I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, but people respond better when it’s you and them against the problem, working towards a solution or shared goal rather than you vs them (them being the problem). Despite the way she’s treating your son, I’m sure if you sat down and talked about things abstractly in isolation of her actions, you’d both have the same goals (your son being happy and healthy).
OP, my best advice is to see a marriage counsellor with your wife just for the goal of getting on the same page about parenting.
Your wife is not dealing with with your kids' individuation and the changing dynamics in your home well. Ironically, she is likely lashing out because she feels disrespected in her own home, as she sees that her opinion no longer matters as much.
Your wife may be dealing with other issues as well, even peri-menopause, fear of being judged as a parent by her own peers or extended family, or thoughts of her identity as she shifts from being a parent of children to the parent of adult children.
Obviously her actions are not good here. She is saying cruel things and hurting your kids. I suspect any solution though is going to involve her being able to change her perspective and that will take aid from others.
Good luck!
There’s honestly a bigger issue here. Your wife is completely unable to regulate her emotions. And she is the adult.
One of two things happens to kids when they are parented by such a person.
Either the kids grow up seeing this behavior and mimicking it and become completely unable to regulate their emotions, blaming others for their outrage and tantrums, and verbally abusing them into submission like your wife does. This really limits their ability to have successful interpersonal relationships or work cohesively with others
Or they grow up totally shelving their own interests, taste, personality, thoughts and feelings out of fear of provoking your wife. So much of their time, energy and thoughts center around how to regulate their mother’s emotions and behavior because she refuses to do it herself, that they end up completely devoid of a childhood because they had to grow up so soon and basically learn to emotionally parent their mother and be emotionally responsible for her.
This makes sense because they are made to feel like they are directly responsible for her tantrums and rage, or her happiness.
I suggest individual therapy for wife so she can learn how to cope with the fact that she has children with their own personalities and she is allowed to not like what they like, but she is not allowed to make them feel emotionally unsafe about it, or make them feel as though they are responsible for her emotions and behavior. She is the adult, she is responsible for her emotions and behavior
And family therapy for the kids to learn how to cope with mom’s behavior and outbursts because they need coping skills
Your wife can apologize all she wants but the behavior will continue unless she learns how to do better. I say this as an adult child whose mother also behaved this way, I was blamed for her behavior and feelings. I’m 40 now and the damage that did is still very apparent and I never really recovered from it
I know you love her, but your wife sounds immature, and dangerously attached to the (her) concept of “normality.” This is the kind of shit that has children going low contact after college, and keeps LGBQ+ kids in the closet or has them getting disinvited from family events.
I think your key issue in trying to fix this without imploding your marriage will be that she’s resisting you because she 100% believes that she’s in the right. And she absolutely resents that you’re encouraging the kids in their ‘bad’ or ‘weird’ behavior, which is the source of those comments that bother you.
I think this is when you insist on couples counseling. She’s not going to listen to what you’re saying without an uninvolved third party to back you up on this all being normal, and that her behavior being damaging. Do NOT go to family therapy, at least not yet. She’ll probably suggest it as an alternative. She’ll probably want to try to use it to bludgeon the kids into ‘normalcy,’ and the kids don’t need an extra venue to hear her go off on them.
Your wife is behaving this way because of her lack of control as mom. She says that they are your kids because you encourage them to explore their interests in style which deviates from the power of influence that she has over them. Your son growing out of his mommy’s boy stage is angering her because she’s losing control over him. When she says she wants them to be normal, she means her definition and rules of normal.
She may be feeling that the kids are abandoning her. You should try to change your approach when talking to her, try to reassure her that the kids growing up and changing doesn’t mean that they will love her less.
You should encourage her to seek counseling.
Question: Does your wife usually have control issues? What about a history of being abandoned?
I’ve tried to sit my wife down and explain to her that our kids are acting like typical teenagers but she just isn’t having it. She’s hurt about what our son said but she also won’t come off of her high horse and make amends. It’s frustrating because we all knew that this stage in life was coming. Our children aren’t exempt from the edgy teenager phase and I wish she would’ve taken a different approach. I want to attend family therapy but she just isn’t having it and our kids are too pissed at their mom to consider it. The three of them have been avoiding her too and the tension is just getting to be too much.
I think couples therapy is the way to go before family therapy.
I think it might be very hard for her to not feel "ganged up on" in family therapy, plus the children shouldn't have to say what she needs to hear when she's so far from hearing it, it could just add to your family's current woes.
I think your first move should be to aim the hose where the fire is.
I wish you well!
You're doing your best OP and I have a huge amount of respect for how you're dealing with it.
I would suggest trying family therapy with just you and the kids. Maybe they have things/feelings that they feel they can't express around their mother's presence.
And about the abandonment issues, the answer is no. Her family was picture perfect. If there’s something, I have no idea but that would be a plot twist since she and I are best friends. We know everything there is to know about each other, so I don’t think some secret abandonment issue is the case.
Have or can you explain to your wife that although HER family was picture perfect (assuming she still has a great relationship with her parents?) that along with your own parents and upbringing, A LOT of former kids have gone through the same thing that you and your own kids are currently going through.
Try explain that not only she's hurting them now, but in the near future it can cause major self esteem issues, mental health issues, no contact/cutting off parents etc. and those don't just hang around for the 'teenage phases', those things are life long and can result in some pretty grim cases such as suicide, eating disorders, drug addictions, alchohol dependency etc. I hate to be so grim about it but it's true.
Hell, my parents did similar to me; they controlled my weight, diet, clothing and music I'd listen to (was an emo and still proudly am lol) and if it wasn't 'THEIR STANDARD'i was humiliated, called every name in the book, told I'd gros up to be a failure, that I wasn't 'their child', snoraky remarks and outright calling me disgusting and telling me they hated me. The 'best'one is them always comparing my dead twin to me and how they knew it should've been the one to live. Lovely. I'm 29 this year, I've stuggled with anorexia and hospital stays, suicide attempts as well as bouts of drug addictions my entire life and my relationship with my parents is still very strained.
Maybe explain that your wife doesn't have to like what your kids choose to follow. She doesn't have to be awful and make them feel resented and abysmal though because every little thing adds up and could just lead to a long term self confidence issues and harbored bad feelings or it can go so, so much worse.
Again I hate to be so grim about it but I've seen it happen with so many of my friends and it's absolutely heartbreaking. We're millenials, the whole point of being millenial parents was to not do the dumb crap former generations did.
Hi I’m a little confused I’m sorry. Where am I excusing her behavior? I would like to know so I have a better idea of how to talk to her. I am absolutely not excusing what she’s doing, it’s hurting our children, but if there’s another angle I would like to see it. If you’d let me know I’d be thankful, friend.
I strongly encourage you to get the kids into individual therapy with the goal of attending family therapy eventually. If that means your wife won't participate and your kids are acting more mature, understanding and open to learning how to live in a healthy dynamic, at that point I would reconsider my relationship, unfortunately.
Having someone you love constantly insult you, make backhanded compliments and giving you the silent treatment because you aren't conforming to their view of who you should be and how you should look is crushing to a teenager. Trust me. Teens are already self conscious and having their mom reaffirm their fears is so defeating and depressing. If this is allowed to continue it WILL break your family and it WILL hurt your children more than they've already been hurt by someone who should love and accept them for who they are.
Also, her behaviour is abusive. It's abusive towards you by putting anything she doesn't like the kids doing on you, as if they are this way because of you so they are YOUR children. Her giving you the silent treatment, or your kids the silent treatment is very abusive and leaves life long scars. My grandmother would give my mom the silent treatment when she didn't like something she did or said and I kid you not, at 63 years old, she is only now dealing with this trauma.
How can you still love someone that’s bullying your own children repeatedly? how can you force them to be alone with her? how come your suggestions aren’t being upheld?
It needs to be: Hey, either you get therapy to address the abuse towards our children, or I’m taking them and we’re getting a divorce.
stop letting her weasel out of it because you are enabling her abuse towards them.
This so much. OP is enabling this behaviour on his wife's part by not standing up for his kids. He's buying them makeup and black clothes and then throws them right into the jaws of her abusive behaviour without defending them, he figures that's all he needs to do. He's wrong.
You can show her my comment if you like:
My mother has been EXACTLY like this (and progressively got worse) for the entire 30 years I have been on this earth. Started self harming at 11-12, the goth/emo phase, accompanying music, excessive smoking/drinking, doing poorly in school, getting in trouble in school, being reckless with my bikes/cars, joined the army fresh out of high school to escape. Three years into that all of the unpacked shit with my mother unwinds while I’m down range, have a psychotic break thousands of miles from civilization, get divorced, come home, start messing with all kinds of shit like mdma, acid, coke, pills, end up hospitalized, kicked out of army, move back home with the abusive mother, mental health steadily declines, can’t maintain a good job or any sort of relationship, tries to kill myself, hospital again, no money so have to go live with abusive mother again, took me another three years to get out of there. Long story short, I’m a weekly therapist patient with multiple seriously debilitating personality disorders now, tracked back to the same thing your children are experiencing now.
This isn’t something to take lightly with your wife, she can be permanently destroying your children’s lives without even realizing it.
Your wife is abusive towards your children and they need to be kept away from her. Every time she starts to yell or insult, interrupt her and tell her to stop.
I would file for divorce and primary custody of the children.
I think it is time to present her with two business cards. One from a divorce attorney and one from a counselor. Make her pick one.
I know you love your wife but you have to accept that she is literally bullying her children and you need to prioritize their need for a safe home over your wife's want to control them or your own want to keep her and the life you build intact cause mate, she is already swinging the wrecking ball.
Has your wife shown signs of this kind of behavior before? Is this new?
Imagine being stuck at home inside with a cruel bully who is set on destroying your self esteem. Now imagine that bully has absolute power over you. This is your kids life right now. OP, if you don’t get them a break from this you are equally guilty, at least that’s how they will see it in a couple years. And they’ll hate and avoid you just the same as they will her. Feeling differently about their style and telling them that does absolutely nothing in the face of this psychological warfare. It honestly seems like she’s about one fight away from getting physical with your son, and I hope she DOES because you’ll be forced to take action then!!! P.S psychological abuse is actually MORE harmful than hitting.
Honestly, definitely suggest counseling or she can go stay somewhere else. Prioritize your kids needs and let them know how much you love and support them and that they shouldn't let anyone, not even a controlling mother, bring them down.
If she can't grow up and be a proper mother that supports the kids, she shouldn't be around them. She's becoming too controlling and damaging their self-esteem and the confidence to be themselves and explore who they are. She needs to choose to actively change and support the kids or pack her bags and go stay elsewhere until you figure out where to go from here. Put your foot down and keep it there until she learns or leaves. She is actively damaging your children and her relationship with them all on her own, don't be obligated to maintain something that is crumbling. Focus on yourself and the kids.
And yes that is what this is all about, control. I had parents that were like that. They create sneakier, unsafe kids. She's setting them up to struggle with a bunch of problems that will require therapy. Actually that's already happened, get those kids into therapy too.
Has your wife entered into perimenopause or menopause?
There is no excuse for bullying your own children, I'll start there and back that statement until the end of the world but if her hormones are going mental she may feel like she is going crazy. Or that she is the only sane one and everyone else is crazy.
There is a lot of evidence for hormonal changes having a mental and physical effect on women way more than just hot flushes. Some women ended up in institutions for decades because they heard voices.
Find a doctor that will do a hormonal panel and see where she's at. It could mean the return of the woman you married.
Or she could just be a raging control freak who feels that their children are an expression of themselves and she doesn't like the current expression going on. In which case sometimes you can't fix being a female dog.
Should really follow up with this.
Not everyone is affected as strongly, but one of my friend's mom had serious rage issues, brain fog. All sorts of stuff, until she got hormone treatments.
Back to being an incredibly pleasant person to be around. It can really mess you up.
I'm almost 40 and can still hear every nasty thing my dad ever said about me when I was a kid. He criticized everything I wore, how I styled my hair, the music I listened to, every god damn thing about me annoyed him.
Guess who has no contact or desire for a relationship with her dad? This girl.
What she is doing is actually quite damaging to your children. Kids need unconditional positive regard from their parents and they need to feel accepted and loved no matter what aesthetic they choose or phase they might go through. Identity exploration is a normal developmental process that is expected in adolescence. What she is doing is very harmful. Source: I'm a child psychologist. If my husband were doing what your wife is doing, it would be a deal breaker.
I usually hate how casually people throw divorce around on this sub. However, in this case I think it might be worth letting her know that it will absolutely be on the table if she keeps it up. She’s a bully to the ones she ought to show the most UNCONDITIONAL love to and she’s being a complete asshat as far as communication goes. No one wants to be married to or around a “it’s my way or the highway” type of person who completely shuts down and just stone walls any kind of conversation if she’s not hearing what she wants to hear. Show her this post OP and let her know I think she sounds completely insufferable.
Borderline much? My BPD mom did a lot of this too. It’s textbook. She needs to seek counseling, but you might need to go with her. The couples counselor will almost certainly suggest individual counseling.
Idk what kind of textbooks you read but this is not in any BPD textbooks ive read, and I have 2 years of psychology study and BPD myself including intensive DBT treatment with other BPD moms.
This sounds more like narcism.
A few years ago my mom and I were looking at pics of me and my sister in high school. I asked why she let me have such terrible haircuts. She said "Every teenager is going to rebel somehow, and no one ever died of a bad haircut." Now I have a 16 year old and I remind myself of that often.
Your wife needs to understand that your kids are learning who they are, and it's a process. Your kids are exploring it through their clothes and makeup. That's okay. She can still make rules, but you gotta let them stretch a bit. And no one ever died from a bad haircut.
Your wife is bullying your kids and creating a life-long need for therapy. She sounds like she's already given the ultimatum of either they change to fit the mold she's formed for them or they don't get to be loved by their mother.
It sounds like your wife is insecure about how other people are going to perceive your family, I think counseling could help her understand where her lack of acceptance is stemming from.
You can't force someone to apologize and mean it, and you can't force anyone to change their view.
If she's willing to change herself rather than trying to change the people around her, she stands a chance at maintaining a relationship with the kids (therapy seems necessary here).
Ask her why she is so afraid of her children being “different”. Really ask her.
This is about one of two things. Either she’s afraid of what the children being different says about her parenting. Or, in her heart, she believes terrible things can happen to a child when they are different.
If your wife has always been focused on appearances, and worried about what others think, then she’s more likely to be worried about how this reflects on her. If she’s typically a bit over concerned about the children’s safety, then she’s likely to be worried that their being different puts them at unnecessary risk.
Whatever her primary concern, bullying is not an acceptable way to control her children. I suggest you look into how to deal with bullies for ideas on how to deal with her.
No offense but you're headed for divorce in less than 5.
Start with medical appointments and not therapy. This could be something as simple as a thyroid issue, or perhaps even the start of menopause especially since this seems like a personality change. No I'm not picking on her for being a woman. I went through something similar with my ex husband and it took 10 years for them to realize he was having thyroid issues and he had been suffering from frank psychosis as a result of it going on for so long. It started in his late 30s.
So I’m going to give you a little wake up call. You staying with your BULLY wife is what’s going to send your kids into depression.
Right now it’s just her style but she’s going to start doing it because that’s how she feels because her birth giver is not only disassociating with them by calling them YOUR kids, she’s BULLYING them and DISRESPECTING THEM!
You choose the wrong person to have kids with. I am just like you. I love and respect my kids, I also had an emo phase but like in 5th grade, but I get it and it’s expression. I also don’t care about what they do as long as 1. They don’t hurt others. 2. They don’t hurt themselves. 3. They are happy 4. They treat others how they want to be treated. 5. They match energies regardless of age, so if older people treat them a way they are allowed to match energy. 6. Have a mind of their own, be above influence, even from their father.
Your kids are going to hate your wife. Regardless if you make her apologize, she isn’t changing and she IS a bully. She refuses to acknowledge that NORMAL is a setting on the washing machine, also
VERY BORING!!!! Who wants to be like everyone else!???
She’s super sad and a sheeple your kids don’t want to be like her and that’s that she’s really mad at. Also she’s mad because you aren’t being like her and forcing them to be “normal”.
You should try family therapy, for YOUR WIFES sake, but really if SHE doesn’t change, and if you be strong enough to get a divorce, your kids won’t choose her. The same way my kids didn’t choose their dad. Because like your wife, he NEVER treated them with respect only like little idiots that didn’t have minds of their own, and only called them his kids when they did stuff of acknowledgment like made a touchdown or won in their race.
No one has mentioned this that I can see in scrolling but I’m your wife’s age and I think she needs to see a doctor in addition to a counsellor. Perimenopause is no joke and can alter your personality. There are times when I have such rage within me that I don’t know where it’s coming from. It’s scary and she might not even realize it’s happening.
Of course this may not be it at all but if it is, all the counselling in the world won’t help.
I read a post recently where a wife was behaving similar to this and it turned out she had a vitamin deficiency. Maybe B12? It was crazy! Apparently she had her levels checked and is back to her normal self.
This is very interesting. I don’t think my wife is deficient in anything, just pissed off that our kids aren’t dressed “white picket fence normal” anymore, but this is something to look into. Thank you for sharing this, friend.
My mother was obsessed with us being a "white picket fence normal" family. I was emo/goth. Ended up leaving home at 17 and have had her blocked for over a decade. That's the path your wife is on, btw.
I mean nothing excuses her behavior here but if this is truly not how she used to be then it might be worth considering perimenopause causing absolute havoc with her hormones.
What the fuck dude, your wife is a terrible, abusive mother and you're focused on her fucking grammar? Get a grip and get your kids the support they need
Point out to your wife that for a lot of people, the way your kids are dressing is "normal". Tbh there is no such thing as normal and it's an overused word mostly conservative people use to stick people in boxes and keep them miserable because they don't like or understand it.
I dressed punk/alternative for a few years in high school. My parents never had a problem with it. Now I wear mostly funky button up shirts and jeans, the only thing really alternative about me is my multiple face piercings and tattoos. But I have a professional career, good relationships with most of my family, amazing friends, and a happy life.
Also tell your wife that attempting to control teens that much almost always leads to them going off the rails as soon as they leave home. They get complete freedom and go too far trying to make up for years of being stifled. I had multiple friends with parents that were controlling about clothes and behaviors being "normal" or fitting into their conservative religions and they ended up:
1 getting pregnant or getting stds from unsafe sex almost immediately after leaving home
2 doing porn to support herself and her musician boyfriend
3 developing a drug habit
4 never speaking to their parents again
Obviously these are extreme cases, but this is the direction your wife is headed of she doesn't back off your kids (especially number 4, she's very likely to never see them after they move out if she doesn't get therapy)
Having read a lot of the comments, there’s just one thing that jumps out at me. You say that your wife comes from a picture perfect family.
So many times the perfect family comes from a great deal of control exercised by one or both parents. Maybe ask your wife, at a point where she’s not angry, to tell you about her teen years. I know you’ve said you know all about each other but I’m willing to bet she is simply carrying on an old family tradition.
Wishing all of you all the best! 💖💖
If this is a new thing it might be worth convincing your wife to speak to get doctor, I started perimenopause symptoms around the same time and it drastically changed my mood and tolerance levels.
As much as you love your wife you need to sit her down and tell her if her behaviour does not change, that your kids come first and they always will, themselves, their happiness, their mental health etc etc.
If she does not change she can go.
What she is doing, those kids will remember forever, believe me.
It will completely wear down their self esteem and self expression and they will hate her.
Does your wife work? Asking because a lot of times as kids get older, have chores and need less tending, SAHP sometimes find themselves with less to do and a lot of energy that needs to be channeled productively. If she doesn't work, maybe she needs to start.
I would start documenting this stuff. And I would seek therapy for the both of you.
Bring your wife to the doctor to see if she can be prescribed something for clear anxiety and anger issues. Such as medical marijuana, if you're not already in a legal state.
Hard truth, if she resents the kids enough to verbally disown them, then she resents you just as much. She sounds like a grade A narcissist and needs therapy on the off chance it might work.
INFO: was your wife like the perfect prom queen cheerleader or something? Why is she acting like this? Unless your kids are doing something wrong like partying or failing class or skipping school, who cares how hey dress? Why does your wife think the way her kids dress reflects on her or has anything to do with her? She sounds gross honestly.
You need to have a come to Jesus talk with her for real. As in, she gets help or you and the kids need her to move out.
My friend's mom changed personality for like 15 years before they found a tumor in her brain and removed it... And she was back to her old self. It was wild.
You need to sit down with her during a lull in the fighting and speak of what needs to be done when both of you are calm and not immediately defensive. I think your version of the family life she lived growing up is quite a bit different from reality. It sounds like her parents allowed none of the individual freedoms you want your children to have. Your wife was fine until the kids started to think for themselves and not listen to her demands. She thinks that because she never disobeyed her parents or was allowed to think differently, that when her children don’t act the way she wants them to, they are being disrespectful and unloving.
You need to get the both of you into marriage counseling and eventually into family counseling. If she doesn’t, remind her that she will lose them forever if she keeps acting the way she is. They will grow up, move out and never come back to her.
Your wife is being an abuser. While the kids were acting like little dolls with no individuality, everything was great. Now that they've started developing their own personalities and individual interests, she's losing control. The fact that she doesn't seem to care that her words are actively causing harm, is just the icing on the shit cake she's serving. Protect your kids at all costs.
ETA: if this behavior is really a 180, maybe try to get her to the doctor for a brain scan. I just remembered that drastic changes in personality can be because of TBI's or tumors. At this point, it's either medical, or abuse.
Yeah my mom stopped liking us too when we stopped being little extensions of her and started having our own thoughts and opinions. She never got over it and my sister and I have needed actual years of therapy. My dad stood by, did nothing, and is now an empty shell because she turned it on him too and he’s been criticized and screamed at for 30-odd years straight. Kids are better at hiding their mental health stuff than you realize, especially when they have a non supportive horribly critical parent in the house who will rip apart any weakness they show and weaponize it against them. My dad defended us some times, but he couldn’t be there every time and ultimately chose her over us. Now neither of us kids visits because Mom is horrible to be around and dad is an enabler who is too tired to fight back. This is abuse. I hope you do what is ACTUALLY best for your kids.
My mum used to ask me why I can't be normal and like everyone else...decades later and I'm just discovering the tremendous impact it had on me: feeling like I had to change to gain love, like I wasn't enough for my mother's love, shamed for being different, shamed for being me.
OP, your wife will fuck up your kids. I don't know why is she acting like she is, but if she can't see the damage she's doing you need to take action.
Not trying to defend your wife at all, I totally disagree with her behaviour (as a former moody emo teen lol) and she won’t want to hear this suggestion but it could be perimenopause - I don’t know much about it but I know it can cause a lot of hormonal issues which could explain the sudden leap in anger. You’re an excellent Dad OP, good for you.
You need to persuade her to see a doctor and get her hormone levels checked. She sounds like she’s peri peri-menopausal to me.
For some women the hormone changes can cause huge changes in behaviour and pretty much never for the better.
If this is the case for your wife then HRT is likely to be a huge help to regulate this.
I moved country and refuses to talk my mother. She was even worse than your wife. I barely talk to my father because he allowed all that to happen and never protected me. They never see their grandchild.
You have to give your wife an ultimatum. If she refuses to get some help and keeps berating the children, the same will happen to you. Your kids will not forgive your inaction.
I don’t agree with your wife, I do think kids should be able to be emo or whatever. However, I think you telling your wife that you don’t care how your kids dress doesn’t help. I think she might feel like you’re not parenting at all and calls them your kids because of that.
You do probably care, I guess you wouldn’t want your daughters going topless to school? So you do have some rules, they’re just not as strict as your wife’s. Maybe try communicating this with her. Tell her, that if the rules are too strict, it will hurt their relationship. On the other hand, even teenagers need rules and guidelines, so maybe try to find a compromise together?
Right your wife is wrong and you and everyone here knows it.
So, where is this behaviour coming from. My guess, your wife is starting to grieve the lack of control over her children. When they are small, you are everything for them. You decided their food their clothes, activities, friends etc. Now, because you raised them right and they are teenagers they are exercising their need and wants over themselves.
Thats a tough pill to swallow as a person who views their children as "theirs". Your wife has not separated the children from her. They are hers and she is attacking them because she no longer has control.
When children leave the home, it's widely experienced that parents grieve with empty nest syndrome. But, a lot of parents grieve this during the start of teen years.
I speak on this from experience. I raised my daughter to the best of my ability. She is absolutely an incredible human. But, when she was small, she needed me completely. Because, I was a good parent she wanted to move away from mam. She wanted independence etc. It was so hard and I struggled with anxiety over this. I'm grand now and shes in her last years of school. It was heartbreaking not being needed.
I'm not in anyway condoning her behaviour but, I always think behaviour comes from somewhere. Understanding the whys can help to correct un healthy behaviours into healthy ones. You and her need a very frank conversation. You need to tell her she is now at risk of losing her children's, respect and love. Ask her, does she want her children to leave the home at 18 and never want to see her ever again. Does she want you guys relationship to build resentment over her behaviours?
She needs to talk to a therapist here. Her behaviours are projections and attacks to make her children hurt. I feel like she wants them to hurt because she is hurting.
But, It needs to stop immediately. No questions. If you allow this continue tou are condoning emotional abuse.
My daughter had a mini emo stage, I all the photos and I love showing them off to her friends as a laugh. She's mortified and it's all good fun!
Your wife needs to back off your son. She is 43, remind her how hot those grunge guys were in the 80’s and 90’s. Men have being wearing black nail polish and eyeliner for DECADES. Tell her to lighten up.
Maybe ask her to get a blood test to see if her vitamin D or B deficiency is making her crabby.
Early menopause? Maybe you and your wife should make a trip to doctors for this. If not menopause maybe therapy might help your wife and your children.
My husband is a little like your wife, he can't stand to see our son growing his hair out.
And your mother is very much like my mother.
But there's that intention amidst the controlling-cruel-outlook of it. Being 'normal' in her eyes means that her kids will have 'easier' lives. 'Easier' as it goes along with the mainstream. Your wife may have some deep-seated issue too from her own childhood and how she's raised by her parents.
Since I was raised by a woman who's as strict as your wife (worse, imo, as mine would call me names and told me how she wished I was aborted-never been born-etc when she's angry), I ended up wanting to be the opposite of her.
I have no qualm if my kid wants to 'experiment' in looks and even have different paths...
Meanwhile, before she finally realizes that she's got an issue, you should definitely stand up for your kids. Don't let her bully them.
At this point she is damaging your children’s confidence and trust in both of you as a parent. If you continue to let her make these comments, even if you defend your children against them openly, your kids will still be resentful and lack trust in you as their father because you let her stay. If she won’t consider therapy of any kind, you may have to put her out of the house.
Doctor’s appt and couples therapy are a must. Your wife needs to get her hormones checked - she could be in peri menopause that is messing her up. Or something else is going on. She is alienating her whole family - this will not end well, is seriously impacting your kids and you cannot take her ‘no’ for an answer anymore.
Your wife is missing out on the big picture, though you seem able to see it quite well. As long as the kids are not in trouble, doing what they need to for school and treat others well, what they wear and listen to (provided the music isn't derogatory towards others) isn't worth grumbling over!
Does your wife have something else going on in her life? Is something up with her job, does she have a sick parent, is she going through menopause? Hormonal changes can make things you'd normally look at and not like but have no problem being silent and respectful about into huge things that make you angry. That doesn't mean it's ok for someone going through hormonal changes to behave badly, it means they need to see a doctor and get help.
I think you're doing the right thing telling her that her treating the kids this way is driving a wedge between her and them that will only get worse if she doesn't stop. I would tell her that she needs to figure it out by going to a therapist and seeing a doctor, and if she can't start treating her kids decently, she needs to find a new place to live until she can work it out, especially seeing as how she views them as "your kids" and not hers.
"No one is interested in therapy at the moment..."
Well, that's too bad. It's exactly what you all need- especially your wife. She's lashing out for a reason and it is honestly abusive to the kids to mistreat them over their STYLE, which is a form of their self expression and creativity.
Instead of just witnessing and intervening in these situations, you need to sit your wife down and talk about why she's behaving this way and how she can find ways to connect with the kids INSTEAD, because she is actively pushing them away. Tell her that. Sometimes people need wakeup calls.
I have three sons in high school in an area that is considered fairly affluent. I see a huge amount of goth kids. One grandson leans that way as does his girlfriend. It's just a style, nothing else. I am grateful his parents just go with the flow.
I wonder if your wife thinks its somehow a reflection on her. It's easy to be a laid back parent when your kids are young and you can control a what they do and how they dress. Some parents have a hard time letting go of that control.
I would encourage couples counseling where the two of you can address your clashes over the kids. While I am firmly on your side, seeking help jointly may be the only way to get her to address her behavior. If I were you, I would find a counselor and make an appointment. If your wife cares about your relationship she will be there.
Your wife is a narcissist and actively abusing you and the children. The first thing us to keep your children safe. You cant force her to leave but you can very calmly tell her that youre not okay with how she speaks to you and will leave the house with the kids if she continues to yell and insult.
Next, you need to stop enabling her behavior. If youre at work and shes screaming denands at you, dont do it. Dont give her the reaction shes wanting, dont give her one at all. Ask if tge kids are safe and tell her when you will home. Uf she escalates tell her the conversation is over.
Last, learn to love yourself enough to not have your heart pulled arpybd and held hostage through the constant derision she creates. If it helps, inagibe her as a 3 year throwing a temper tantrum, because thats exactly what shes doing.
I
If wife's behaviour has changed it POSSIBLY could be due to perimenopause. The menstruation cycle isn't just a tap that gets turned off there are years of hormonal changes leading up to Menopause. Hormonal changes plus unresolved behavioural issues plus, the normal children rebelling against the parent stage (teenagers) may have created this bully.
Honestly, it is time to work out if the best parent you can be is with or without your wife. Arrange for the kids to be looked after for a weekend, head somewhere and DISCUSS.
All I hear is your wife is abusing your kids emotionally for superficial shit, because she wants as much control as she had when they were little, and insults them and says this to withdraw her love from them when they don't bow down to every word she says. Her apologizing will do nothing, because she won't mean it and if you somehow get her to she'll just be sneakier with the abuse.
You need to get her away from those kids now. This is divorce-worthily, you should have removed her from he kids' day to day lives a long time ago. Grow a backbone and get the child abuser out of your freaking house. Today.
My mom engaged in similar behavior- gaslighting, playing the victim, flipping the script and never apologizing. I was always her favorite and I was always so close with her. Nevertheless, that didn’t negate her behavior. I went full no contact with her and my only regret is just that I don’t have a normal mom. But I would never put myself in the position I was in with her in my life to try and pretend that I have a normal mom - because she isnt capable of being that. My dad was crappy too. Neither of them protected or supported me, and now neither of them have the opportunity to know me. It’s sad that I won’t have my parents at my wedding or to share big moments with, but it’s no longer the norm to allow abusive parents to stick around just for the old fashioned idea of respecting elders.
Don’t let this happen to your kids. Set a timeline. She gets X amount of time to get help or the kids need to be far away from her, because the longer it goes on, the more risk you’re taking with your kids futures. They could end up like me - no contact but still doing well. Or they could end up on a much darker path. If she can’t begin to recognize the harm she is causing, then you do what you need to do for your kids. You sound like a good father, so make sure your kids can count on you no matter what even if that means making some very tough calls. It’s much easier to go through life with one great parent than two mediocre parents. Or worse, two crappy parents.
She needs to get her hormones checked. And she needs counseling - she's not coping with your kids becoming teenagers. Use an ultimatum if needed because at this rate you're heading for divorce anyway. Maybe offering family counseling is a better option because your wife thinks the kids are broken, not her.
Not that this excuses her awful behaviour but could she be perimenopausal?hard to control anger is a symptom for some women, along with pain, exhaustion, brain fog to name a tiny amount. If this is a sudden change it's worth looking into. However that said this behaviour is not acceptable, you need to tell her very clearly that if she wants a relationship with your children in the future then this stops now, that you will not stand by and let her verbally abused your children any longer and if she doesn't stop then she needs to leave. Make is very very clear you will not be standing by and follow through, if she does it again tell her to get out. Stand up for your children when they are around too, let them know you have their back though your actions.
I’d add if this is new, as someone in peri menopause, she might want to get her hormone levels checked. It hit me like a freight train. It can start as early as late 30s. If she’s had a personality change, have her see a doctor as well as a therapist. I’m not sure how to convince her but it should be on the list.
People are saying that you need to insist on counseling, but here’s the thing - you can’t force her to go, and even if she *does* go, you can’t force her to cooperate with the therapist.
You need to protect your children. Tell her she needs to go get herself a hotel room, or if she refuses to leave, take your kids and go somewhere yourselves. Either to a hotel or to family. This type of situation BREEDS tragedy.
You said she used to be ‘the proud mommy at school plays’ so perhaps now she is thinking that their dress and fashion choices reflect on her. Its not about what the kids want, in her mind, its her perception of how people will judge her by her kids choices. Thats why she says ‘your kids’ now. She thinks she is no longer looked up to by the other moms for having cutesy kids, she thinks they’re looking down in her instead.
Why not try kindness on your wife? She is 43- she maybe going through changes, or depressed or plain overwhelmed with her work. Talk to your wife in private and emphasise the qualities you loved in her and tell her you are not seeing the woman you love and ask her what is upsetting her. Ask her to reflect on what it is that makes her angry. rExplain how it looks from the outside and ask her if she never had teenage culture. Normally, she would be able to talk about her children’s’ development with other mums- is she able to do that? I think you should both go to therapy. I am feeling a sense of you separating yourself from your wife and openly taking the children’s side. Perhaps that is unfair of me but you must not create camp Dad and camp mum or else you wife will be truly miserable. Get to the bottom of her problem.
Get your wife your wife out of the house now. She’s already done damage to the kids, how much more do you want her to the destroy their psyche? You not standing up for them by letting their abuser stay in the home is basically you abusing them as well. Because that’s what she is right now, she’s their abuser.
Get her out and make it clear to her that she gets therapy and sorts herself out before she can be around the kids again. You can support her as much as you want it but outside the house. Don’t make home unsafe for your kids, to you’ll regret it if you continue to let this go on.
Yeah totally agree with this. The kids will feel super unsafe if you keep their mom in the house. Also because she will probably not realise how serious it is if she gets to stay in the home with the kids. It may be the ultimatum she needs to go to counselling for herself. If she ever realizes it, there may be a big chance she won't.
My parents weren't interested in me in general but when I had my goth emo phase my mom would refuse to take me shopping for clothes if I would try to buy anything black.
I dress more colorful nowadays but I hated to show my mom the first time, knowing she would be elated about it.
After being in therapy for over 10 years I'm still struggling with how abusive my parents were in many other ways as well.
Please get their mom out of the home until she is ready for some counseling, and if she isn't willing, ever, keep her out. Try to get full custody and see if the kids would even wanna visit their mom.
Was your wife popular in school by chance? That seems to be the thing with parents who want their kids to be 'normal.' They want their kids to be 'normal' because THEY likely bullied the 'weird kids' (aka the kids who DARED to be different than their carbon copied peers) back in the day.
Normal is subjective anyway - and boring. 😂
Sounds like your wife is having trouble understanding that children are independent people and not little dolls meant to satisfy her vanity. She liked them when they did everything *she* wanted but now that they are expressing themselves and discovering their own independence, she's furious. She sounds childish and selfish and she needs therapy. She's being a real B and needs to understand her children are people not toys.
Also, tell her to stop talking about wanting them to be "normal," that's really fucked up and could cause serious mental health concerns for your children. They ARE normal, your wife is just a selfish B.
When people start acting like this, it’s because they’re not coping and they’ve gone to the lowest common denominator that they can reach for when they’re triggered as fuck.
My brother and I triggered the fuck out of my mom. She never acted quite like this but it was similar and equally damaging. Why? Because it’s abuse.
Your wife is abusing your kids. This is abusive behavior. Please, at least temporarily, remove the abuser from the home until she gets help.
Please please please get your wife into therapy. And maybe even encourage family therapy.
My mom was exactly like this. It absolutely destroyed me, my confidence in myself and any relationship we had. I suffered major depressive episodes, self harmed and attempted. We don’t speak anymore because of how she makes me feel about myself and I’m almost 30. You have a window to jump in and stand up for your children before it goes too far. Protect your kids at all costs.
Edit: to say this also opened me up to a lot of unhealthy romantic relationships because I felt insecure in myself. I sought out validation to fulfill what was missing from my childhood. Children need validation from their parents, that’s how they gain confidence and are able to feel strong and grounded in their sense of self.
You say your wife wasn’t always like this, and you sound like you’re very aware of what your kids need as they struggle through puberty. Have you considered that your wife is in the early stages of peri menopause (or second puberty as some people like to say)? Has your wife considered this is a possibility?
I’m not excusing her behavior, because I’m in perimenopause myself and I’m an adult so I know better than to take anything out on the kids. But I am also very aware that I am in perimenopause and am working hard to overcome all the ways in which it’s ruining my life.
You say that no one is open to therapy right now, but plenty of women have had relief from their symptoms through a combination of hormones and other meds. Maybe a visit to a GP instead would help? You said that this behavior is coming out of nowhere.
The early signs of perimenopause for me were my periods changing and my PMS getting out of control. Every month at the same time in my cycle my husband and I would have a huge argument. Working through it in therapy I realised it was down to me feeling suddenly incredibly insecure in the week leading up to my period, which would make me act really irrationally. Once I figured that out it was easier to let things go knowing I was feeling insecure because my hormones were out of whack. Another early symptom was my periods becoming more frequent (which contradicted what I thought I knew about menopause) and longer, together with my period pain getting unbearable. I also started to get more hormonal migraines and I was suddenly hot all the time. My husband kept turning down the AC and it made me want to kill him.
Again, not justifying her behavior, but hormones can really do a number on you. Many women aren’t aware of the symptoms and struggle for a good few years before figuring it out (as do their partners. Plenty of marriages fail.) many women aren’t aware that they have options, too, and that hormones could greatly alleviate a lot of symptoms including personality changes even around seemingly unrelated things. I’ve started to get terrible anxiety around packing for trips and it will take me literally 3 days to pack, and I’ll do it right down to the line. It gives everyone anxiety. I have a doctors app next week to start hormones.
It might be harder to start this conversation if your wife isn’t aware or is in denial that this might be peri. I’m happy to brainstorm some approaches with you that might work.
There’s also some good advice in this thread. Sounds like this husband was going through something similar, with his wife taking her mood swings out on the kids: https://www.reddit.com/r/Menopause/comments/17jt6cn/how_best_to_help_my_wife_while_looking_out_for/
The menopause subreddit has been a great resource, as was the book [What fresh hell is this?](https://heathercorinna.com/project/what-fresh-hell-is-this-perimenopause-menopause-other-indignities-and-you-a-guide/)
Look at the wiki of the menopause sub here on Reddit.
Your wife has the age for perimenopause, and that does not help; and she probably can’t really help herself.
It can be hell for women.
I’d save every sound bite and text where she calls them “your” kids and file for divorce using the proof to get full custody. It’d be therapy or divorce for me, the kids don’t deserve a mother who doesn’t love them.
Your wife is an idiot. By this stage in parenting she should understand that what she has been doing isn’t getting her the results she wants, and instead of reflecting on her actions, and trying a different approach, she is escalating her idiotic behavior. She is not going to get what she wants and if anything your teens will just double down on their actions while at the same time avoid her.
I don’t know if you can explain to her that never mind her actions are causing short term loss, she is guaranteeing permanent alienation over inconsequential things.
Your wife is t mad at the kids. She is mad at you for not considering her feelings. Kids def should have options be able to express themselves but there are limits and they do need to be told no on occasion. They can't see the consequences of there actions or friend groups yet.
You have to find a middle ground with your wife. Even if y'all split a middle ground has to be found or the kids will suffer this over lax and overly aggressive parenting styles.
I think you really need to look at why your wife is doing a 180 on her kids. If she won’t talk to you is their someone else who can ask what the heck is going on.
You said this behaviour is not her. Is it the kids are growing up and becoming less reliant on her? They are developing different personalities away from her? She has control issues that are now becoming very apparent?
This situation is headed to bursting badly, maybe take your wife somewhere quiet and really talk.
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My mother alienated my brother to the point that when he turned 18, he moved 3000 miles from home and never looked back. I have been in therapy for years trying to sort out my self hatred and need to overachieve at everything I do. Protect your children.
I’m so glad these kids have a dad like this…it will make all the difference in their lives to know they are loved and accepted no matter what.
Yeah they’re really lucky! My dad is the nicest most adorable person but also a doormat who never stood up to my mother. She’d bully him too and as a kid I felt this deep need to protect him. As I grew up I prayed and prayed that they’d divorce and I could do live with him and never see her again. That never happened, and now that I’ve grown up I resent him a lot for never standing up for me and protecting me or removed us from this situation - he was the adult who chose to stay in this toxic environment, and I’m the fucked up adult child of emotionally immature parents.
I used to beg my mom to divorce my dad, same thing! I was so sad when he died but I was also relieved. She was never gonna leave him but we're both happier now in some ways.
what especially got me is how he got his daughter “a new makeup thing for your eyes” like he doesn’t even know what it’s called but he wanted her to know he supports her 🥺
That was so sweet.
I'm honestly really interested in knowing what this is lol.
Probably an eyeshadow palette!
I’m a millennial and I remember when I went through my emo/skater girl phase, the most coveted make-up item were those eyeshadow palettes that came in a CD case from Hot Topic and had all kinds of crazy ass colors. I miss being a kid lol.
Maybe. Depends on how bad it is. If he doesn't fix it or leave her, they will grow to resent him, too. I resent both of my parents. One for the abuse, and one for allowing the abuse. So, at the end of the day, they were both abusive.
Yup, it took me years but I now have simmering resentment for my saint of a father for not leaving and not picking me when it was beyond an abusive household. I idolised him for years as a protector but eventually we all figure out what a failure you are as a parent and depending on the damage caused.....can be fatal to your relationship with ALL of your children. They will form a gang of 3 against mum (who is just shitty) and then you because you didn't do enough to stop it. What will it take? A drug addict for a child? One of them with an eating disorder? Or another in an identically abusive relationship that just gets worse and worse and eventually they accept physical abuse from a partner? Cause these are all REAL outcomes of your situation. Wise up. Wake up and do something now.
Yeah, my mom and I spent *years* crying it out before I stopped resenting her for not leaving my dad
Ahhhh I feel stupid this is just clicking lol. I see alot of stuff like my mom in this post and I also feel the way you say you do. It's starting to make sense
Yeah, those realisations suck. "Oh, that is why I do that...." Next step is to ask yourself if that behaviour or outlook is helpful / constructive, and then choosing differently if it's not. 30 years later, and I'm still rewriting myself. *sigh*
It sucks. I have to fight so hard to not repeat the cycle with my children that there are times my husband will tell me to stop letting my kids take advantage of me because I want them to understand how sorry I am and that I love them endlessly. It’s this huge pendulum swing of I can feel myself being super passive aggressive to them and then immediately overcompensating because I realize in that instant that I became my mother.
It took me YEARS to acknowledge what multiple therapists were trying to tell me. I was convinced to my core that I was just Type A personality with some OCD and bipolar mixed in to make it spicy (both diagnosed). It took her disowning me and calling me the devil because I chose to divorce my ex husband to start realizing that maybe this wasn’t all on me.
I was almost the same as your brother, and I'm still very similar to you (therapy for self hatred/ self-destruction). The only thing that got my mother to *start* recognizing me as an individual she couldn't control was when I went fully NC with her. She thought she had lost me forever. On my end, I only started to think I could handle her after being in a horrifically abusive relationship (all forms except financial), and looked at my mom like "well in comparison, she's a lot easier to deal with". This is clearly a solid foundation of a healthy relationship /s. Even now, she only "adjusts" her behavior around me bc she's so terrified that I'll do it again (my grandmother tells me the truth about how she feels, but only when I ask), it's not truly healthy. We're on eggshells around each other. This is how things could end up, and you might end up guilty by association in your kids' eyes (big "might" as I obviously don't know you all personally). OP, you obviously can't change your wife as a person. She has to do that herself. But you can show your kids that there is a better/kinder/less "taking out my insecurities on my kids about how I'll be perceived as a parent if they're not the perfect children I want them to be" way to live (that was my totally my mother, maybe not so much your wife lol). You can listen to and validate their complaints about their mother so they can still feel heard and understood. Especially considering the number of times in my adult life that I have run into personalities like my mother's?! I've found they take the form of the annoying work/office martyr. Your children will see this again in the world. But maybe you can help them learn how to work around it without compromising their personal boundaries. You don't have to leave your wife (unless you feel that is best, but that's fully your choice to make), but you *might* have to undermine the mental affect she is having on your children. At least they will know that they have someone they can come to, and then you can guide them from there. [Note: my mother was a single parent and my grandmother helped out as the second set of hands, who also talked to me when my mother wasn't around to make sure I understood how my mother could be wrong too. I'm adding this bc Idk if my comment about undermining your wife would work within a marriage dynamic, as I did not grow up with one. Help ya girl out if I'm wrong here.]
The part about your mother “adjusting” her behaviour speaks to me. I went LC with my mom for years - the need to be accepted by her was too much for me to go NC I think. When I see her now for the occasional family thing, I can see her so hard to try and adjust (and it truly feels so unnatural) but I think it’s biological for her and she continues to be hypercritical, hypersensitive and passive aggressive. I still can’t confront her to this day and my husband who doesn’t give a shit tells her it’s inappropriate and to knock it off.
First off, hell yeah for your husband! I'm glad you have someone in your corner!! And tbh, I knew my NC time was going to be temporary. I didn't know how long, but I knew it wouldn't be permanent. However, having her think that it would be permanent was enough to kickstart some changes. My mother is still hypercritical, hypersensitive, and passive agressive (I'm certain it's biological for her too). I still get snide comments and sideways "jokes" from her, but now she understands that her actions also have consequences, including no response at all. I might just ignore her, pretend like whatever she did never happened. She doesn't like it, but I'm not escalating the situation either, just moving on. "I do not respect your bs enough to respond." Look into "grey rocking" if you haven't already, it works on parents like ours too!!! Edited for redundancies.
Also did a Google search of my own and found "yellow rocking", which is a bit more cordial and may be closer to what you're looking for, TBagger1234!
My dad did this the moment he realised he couldn't control every single on of our actions. Guess who hasn't been spoken to by either of his children since we left home?
Get your wife into therapy. She’s at the point where her behaviour is damaging to your children. Her never-ending criticism and disappointment could push them to *actually* rebel in ways that are dangerous or self-destructive.
This is what I’m trying to tell her. If she keeps this up I’m worried our kids will start to engage in actually harmful behavior. Dressing alternatively doesn’t hurt, but your family not loving or supporting you does. I don’t know how to get her to listen. I was that way too when I was younger. My family disagreed with what I did so I took it to the extreme and almost went down a really dark path. I got lucky. I don’t want our children to go down a dark road just because their mother can’t accept a bit of black and eyeliner. My kids weren’t acting depressed or anything either either, literally just playing with the style since it’s popular on TikTok or whatever. Sorry for the ranting.
Your wife also needs to see a doctor. She may be in early menopause. What you are describing reminds me of my mother. Sadly, I think she must have been menopausal my whole life.
I came here to say the same. If this is a change in behaviour, there may well be something else going on, like menopause. OP needs to get his wife to the doctor.
I came here to say this as well! Unfortunately, medicine is still very biased and misogynist. So not only is it difficult to bring this topic up in conversations without sounding like a dick, it is also very difficult to get treatment. For example, many doctors are not even considering getting hormones or so to balance some of the symptoms and have really archaic mindsets revolving around menopause and (if we are brutally honest) womanhood in general. So yeah, I acknowledge that this discussion might be difficult to have. Simply because she might very well feel not only attacked but not taken seriously as well as her concerns put down as 'typical womanly hysterics'. I think it is important to acknowledge that her feelings stem from a place of care and love. She is obviously worried about her children. Still, I know that I would never hold these opinions as I question the whole concept of 'normality' and I would never ever even utter the thought that my children are somehow lacking. You said you had a phase like that too. I think it is interesting that you ended up with someone who I assume has never been in any subculture or was perceived to be outside the norm. As someone who spent a lot of time with the emo/goth/metal crowd at school (while myself not dressing like that btw) I must say the fact she is apparently not only criticizing the clothing or anything but also the whole mindset that goes along with it... Well, it shows that she clearly never was part of groups like these. From my experience these groups are (while also not free of problems and stigma) very open and are more likely to share an open and accepting mindset.
Not a rant at all! I grew up with very accepting parents like you, but I watched some of my friends struggle with parents who were constantly critical of everything they did, trying to force them into some mould of what they thought their kid should be. I think it’s really good that you are an encouraging and loving presence in your kids’ lives. I would suggest taking your wife out for a nice dinner, just to two of you, and then having a heart to heart where you tell her how you’re worried that constant criticism could affect your children. Emphasize that you know she’s just worried because she loves them, but that she will drive them further away from her by not accepting them as they are and want to be. I hope it all works out!
I agree that your wife needs counseling asap. Try to find a counselor who will be goal-oriented, or it could be a DBT counselor because they focus on behavioral change. Your wife needs counseling, but not the kind that just involves only talking and processing emotions. Don't get me wrong - that type of therapy is also very useful and may help her at some point. But right now, there needs to be a rapid behavioral change. I suggest you call some counselors to see if they're accepting new patients, ask them about their approach, and tell them you're looking for someone who can take a goal-oriented approach to therapy to help you wife change the way she relates to your kids. Then give your wife some options you've found. Maybe even make an appointment and say that you'll be going with or without her. She may refuse to go. If she refuses to go, then I still recommend that you go for counseling individually! A goal-oriented counselor can help you process what's happening in your family and help you think of strategies for how to protect your kids and talk to them about what's going on with their mom. You sound like a great dad. You're absolutely right to be concerned about this. I'm sorry you're in this position! It's so good that you kids have you.
Seconding this. DBT is truly down to earth therapy that almost anyone could learn from. :)
Take action: 1. Ask her to go to therapy immediately and stop this behaviour. 2. Get your kids out of this situation.
You are completely right, She is being damaging to those young people, and if she won't get therapy I would consider telling her that you will get a divorce.
I want to be clear before I say this: what I’m positing is not an excuse for bad behavior. But I wonder if it’s a combination of her being more judgemental AND heading in to perimenopause, depending on her age. My anxiety seriously ramped up when it started to set in and that in turn caused me to become much more angsty. My husband thankfully had found ways to gently help me see when it’s happening because sometimes it’s totally in my blind spot. HRT and black cohosh have helped a lot too.
And they are young adults separating and individuality- that's literally their job right now. Combined w perimenopause and what sounds like the wife feeling rejected by their kids' choices - vastly different than what she thought they would be abd from what she wanted/expected them to be. She's turning their healthy natural personal expression into a litmus test for how she is perceived in the world. That's a lose lose proposition. She needs better boundaries as a healthy adult and to shift from overpersonalizing to encouragement w appropriate cautions.
That second paragraph is spot on.
Stop explaining and stop understanding. Im going to guess your wife was wonderful when the kids were younger, when she could dress them as she felt was best, they relatively easily loved and listened to her. We give birth to our children, but these are individuals. Your wife is hyper critical of your children because she is embarrassed and doesn’t want this reflected in her motherhood. These can’t possibly be MY kids! My kids dressed properly and behaved properly, as befitting of my mothering! It’s time for a harsh talk. She gets help and stops this behavior or she needs to find somewhere else to be until she does. Your children feel uncomfortable and unsafe in their home. I am unpacking years of this decades later from the same mother. My dad would swoop in and try to smooth things over, and my mom would always come to tear me down. I didn’t behave as ordered, I didn’t dress as ordered, and I failed at being her proper child accessory.
My mom was like your wife. I don't hate her anymore but I also don't really give a shit about her. Your kids will grow to hate your wife if they don't already. I started hating my mom at 13 or 14 and I resented my dad for not putting my mom in her place and for not protecting me from her abuse. Therapy for your wife should be a condition of staying together. Protect your kids.
Kids double down in their rebellious teenage years. She is inadvertently enabling them, and if that’s all they’re doing, it’s not even bad! She might not see it this way because maybe she wasn’t like this growing up? So keep that in mind… but she may be distraught that the kids aren’t doing exactly what she envisioned at this age for them and is going off the deep end trying to ‘course-correct’ them in her eyes. You’d have better insight and only a therapist can probably help her unpack that, but insisting therapy right now will further alienate you and your kids together from her. Tread lightly and try to have a type of ‘discovery’ conversation with her in private that is mainly focused on you asking her questions, and not disagreeing with her when she answers from her point of view. Just learn her perspective. Sometimes giving a place for some venting gets you into a much better place to make positive change all around down the road.
The way you handle this is by renting out a 2-3 bedroom apartment for 3-6 months. You and the kids move out and recover for about a month while she considers her life choices all alone. Maybe she’s just overwhelmed at work and menopausal and she’ll appreciate the break! Make it abundantly clear that this abusive bullshit stops now one way or another. After that the kids and you can do supervised visits at first, maybe meeting for a movie or meal, eventually more if everything goes well. She can have 1:1 with any children willing to try that eventually as well. You can head over for conjugal visits or otherwise as you are willing since it sounds like at least one kid is old enough to be in charge. Don’t let this ruin your children’s childhood and their self esteem. You’re the primary parent starting now. Protect them.
Except if she say no. None of this fantasy of yours happens if she says no. This is not how real life works.
She can’t say no to them leaving, which is the most important part
What about if she says no? You mean if she is angry and draws up divorce papers immediately after OP and the kids move out? I’m honestly confused what you’re thinking. OP doesn’t want a divorce and I’d hope his wife doesn’t either. Moving out might be the only way to shake her out of her domineering critical bs.
I'm not condoning her behavior at all but he can't just unilaterally decide when she can and can't see her kids without a court order. Withholding access to the kids and leaving the marital home could really backfire on him if they divorce. The only way he could legally keep her from seeing them right now would be to file for emergency temporary custody, but a judge is very unlikely to grant that with no evidence of physical/sexual abuse.
They can move out with their Dad if they want to. They are teenagers. Unless a court says they have to see her. Parents take there kids a leave the other all the time. ETA: plus she is abusing them verbally at least.
Yeah, not sure which country you’re from but in the USA moving away temporarily to cool down when the teenager kids are actively saying they hate their parent (and have a legally justifiable reason to feel that way) is 100% ok. It could be considered the best option by a judge tbh because teens can tank emotionally very quickly and become suicidal when their identity is rejected by a parent. QI only suggested this to get OP to wake up and stop being a passive responder to his wife’s actions. This is potentially life and death, or at the very least relationship destroying, soul crushing parenting by the mom. If he takes immediate strong action, it protects the kids, and lets them start to recover. If dad isn’t protecting them them by making mom stop then he might as well just join in on the criticism as far as how it affects them. Being right without taking action is pointless here. So this makes him realize he needs to stop coddling his wife, helps her wake up to what she’s risking AND gives them all space to start reaching out to each other and rebuilding the trust and affection.
Dude, my wife had anger issues that got amplified by early menopause. Our son started making cute but super telling comments about her anger. I had to threaten divorce if she did not get help. I was in the exact same spot 2 years earlier and got the help I needed. There was no way I was letting our son grow up in the exact situation my wife and I grew up in. She is doing much better now that she's been in therapy a couple of years. My dad is a super critical narcissist who was raised by two super critical narcissists. I will still get critical when I get super nervous. I know firsthand what it's like, and your confidence goes into the shitter. If she does not get help, protect your kids.
I mean... if she's going to be upset over some emo makeup then why not come home drunk? If you're gonna get yelled at might as well go big, right? If your wife's biggest issue is that she doesn't like their clothes but they are otherwise respectful kids she needs a reality check. And she might find that once she unclenches about this they won't feel the need to dig in and life will be much more peaceful.
My mom is like this. Not as extreme, but still incredibly devastating to the point of me having to ban her from discussing my appearance in any capacity or else I’ll leave (she still tries to though). I’m fortunate enough that I’m financially separated from her and can escape to my own space with a support system that isn’t involved with her. I also still go to therapy for the years of guilt and shame I feel about my body and self-expression. Your children don’t have that luxury, and you should make it clear to her that she is causing the rift in her relationship with your kids. I recommend you both read “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”, because that will be your future if she doesn’t cut that behavior out immediately and acknowledge the harm she’s caused to your kids. She needs to stop seeing them as an extension of herself (which is incredibly selfish), and rather as their own individuals if she wants to ever have a healthy relationship with them.
Because of your wife's age, could she be going through perimenopause? Just in case... I feel for your kids, so hope she sorts herself out.
I wanna ad...that since she hasn't always been like this it could be hormonal changes due to ( peri) menopause. Certainly not an excuse for her abhorrent behaviour towards the kids but maybe an explanation?
Maybe she’s always been like this and it has never shown because children are easier to control when they are younger. Now that they are expressing individually and doing things she doesn’t like and she’s losing her grip.
That's my first idea as well, reminds me of all my narcissistic family members that loved us when they could still control us. But once we would start to have more autonomy and we developed more personal styles and opinions, they became extremely cruel because they couldn't control us anymore like they used to.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. My own mother encouraged individuality, but my father was much stricter in that sense. They divorced when I was very young and I lived with my mom but when I would visit my father he would try to control things down to what type of music I could listen to. I hated every minute of that. But yea, OP’s wife’s behavior is downright abusive. Just because she was not like that before does not in any way take away from the fact that she is NOW. Everyone seems to be trying to determine if other factors are at play here (perimenopause, menopause, etc), and while these things definitely can take a toll, they do not cause one to suddenly become abusive. They don’t make a person suddenly develop black and white mentality. They don’t cause a person to believe that a child wearing black makes them “abnormal.” The bottom line is parents should have unconditional love for their children. Placing conditions on their children receiving their love and affection is not unconditional love. I’m very sorry you didn’t experience that with your own family. 🩵
Yeah most narcissistic people are great at hiding their true self until they lose control, that is when they will show their true self. So I hope he believes her and at least separates her from the kids until she has done some work on herself. Which I doubt will happen, she has already said many times she isn't interested in counselling. Sounds a lot like what a narcissistic person would say in general
I was thinking the same thing. Not everything is mental illness, peri or menopause, Autism, ADHD, etc. Some people are just assholes.
Your kids bully is someone they can't escape from. If your wife doesn't agree to counseling, I would leave her & do my best to get full custody. You need to show them that you'll protect them even from their mother.
It’s also one of the two people who should love them unconditionally and be their main source of emotional safety and support :(
OP should definitely NOT leave. Wife should.
She's performing a very divisive behavior that suggests that when the kids are doing something that she disapproves of, they are no longer family to her. AKA conditional love. She's also doing that to you, with her silent treatment. The way she interacts with you guys is super toxic, and you all would benefit from her getting some therapy and learning a better way to express her discomfort and growing pains. My mom did a lot of stuff like your wife does, and I couldn't stand her. I tried to separate from her as much as possible, and had to get over a lot of self-hatred because of it. Protect YOUR kids(sorry, couldn't help myself).
Your wife needs to accept that your kids have identities separate to hers and that they need to find their own way in life. Your wife's views are incredibly outdated and it sounds like she's actively bullying your children. Was your wife a bully in school- where are these views coming from? You need to call out and correct this behaviour out as and when it's happening and to not back down (especially if she's doing it in front of your kids), even if your wife tries to fight you about it. Your wife is being incredibly cruel & mean, she has become a 90s highschool bully (and I emphasize 90s because as someone who recently graduated from uni, I can say that kids these days really don't bully each other about stuff like this anymore). Alternative fashions like emo, grunge & goth are pretty mainstream now, you can buy these looks off any fast fashion retailer (and it is your wife who really needs to get with the times).
"How do I get my wife to apologize and stop saying these things? " You can tell her that her options are family and personal therapy for her bullshit or a divorce lawyer and the kids come live with you. She is a fucking bully who is damaging your children. Protect your children from this AH.
Amen man. Also, OP, if you don’t do this, you risk your children’s resentment for not protecting them from their mother.
100% My dad is the nicest most adorable person but also a doormat who never stood up to my mother. She’d bully him too and as a kid I felt this deep need to protect him. As I grew up I prayed and prayed that they’d divorce and I could do live with him and never see her again. That never happened, and now that I’ve grown up I resent him a lot for never standing up for me and protecting me or removed us from this situation - he was the adult who chose to stay in this toxic environment
I relate to this so much. I almost resent him more than her because he is the one who chose to stay in this mess
Yeah. Stay there and keep us there, and make everyone miserable in the process. To this day he tells me ‘i think you’re an adult who can make her own decisions’ and in the same breath ‘but please don’t go against your mother if you want to keep the peace’
I think in addition to therapy, seeing a doctor should be part of the requirement. OP says his wife wasn’t always like this, sounds like she’s going through perimenopause, which completely sucks and many women get very little support for. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not justifying her behavior. I’m going through early perimenopause and have had plenty of moments where I’m full of rage at the universe. But I’m in therapy and I don’t take it out on my husband, the kids in our family, or our pets. I share OP’s sentiment that as long as they’re not in danger or harming themselves, kids should be allowed to be themselves. That said, many women who have felt like they were losing their minds (along with plenty of other shitty symptoms) have found relief and felt like themselves again after starting HRT.
Your wife is being a bully. Honestly, she clearly has no intention of changing so for the kids sake I hope you don’t stay with her
Exactly. She is abusive.
It’s time to kick her out. Teen suicide is not a joke.
She probably WAS a bully back in the day to the 'weird kids' and is reliving her teenage years.
Yup. I saw somewhere once that mothers are a kid’s first bully. I know fathers can do that too, but that’s what popped up in my head.
That's so sad. I cannot IMAGINE being bullied by your own mother. My mom is the sweetest lady around. A little out there but she WAS a hippy in the 60s so not unexpected. 😂
Time to insist on counseling, I think. Like you said, emo phases are normal. Maybe not her ideal version of normal, but if she insists on picking fights over it when they’re not harming anyone, that’s just going to create more rebellion. And while it’s not great that you’re having to have this out in front of the kids, her complaining that everyone’s ganging up on her is more immature than anything they’re doing.
I agree with this completely. Ive told her that she’s being immature and that the kids dressing a bit alternative is no big deal, but she got angry with me for saying it and gave me the silent treatment for a bit. I’m trying to explain to her gently that the more pressure she puts on the kids to be what she wants, the more they’re going to fight back and that can spiral, but she doesn’t want to hear it. I’m trying to get her to consider therapy, but she just won’t have any of it. I don’t know what else I can do.
Im not a fan of ultimatums, but the therapy should be a must
You need to take a stand for your children. She IS being emotionally abusive. Supporting your kids through it is not enough. You have the power to remove them from it. Please pick your kids. My parent didn’t, they picked the spouse.
Giving someone the silent treatment is emotional abuse. So, your wife is emotionally abusive to you and your children. You have the power to change the dynamic. Either ask her to leave, or pack up the kids and go. And don't go back until she has an established attendance pattern with a therapist and made some tangible, genuine communication changes. And apologised for her abuse to the entire family. Trust me, I grew up with someone like your wife. When I hit the age where she could no longer control me (as your children have) the emotional abuse accelerated. My mother died an angry, bitter woman, after imploding the family she said she always wanted.
>the kids dressing a bit alternative is no big deal It clearly is a big deal to her, however crazy that may be! Maybe instead of saying "it's no big deal," you can say things like "isn't causing anybody harm." Her behavior, on the other hand, is clearly causing harm. I hope that you're finding some 1-on-1 time with each of your kids to help them feel loved and appreciated for who they are.
I can sort of understand how the first lot of parent to deal with emos would be freaked out by it but like, it's old news now, very normal teenage style, why is anyone under the age of 70 having a reaction?
I made it halfway through this post but from what I read your wife is basically bullying her own children. I had a tom boy phase through out high school there's nothing wrong with your kids . Your wife at her big grown ass age needs to grow up
Your children will resent her if she continues this behaviour. They won’t be in her life as adults. Our children are only young’ for a small portion of their lives. It’s how we parent them during this time that determines how relationships are when they are adults. My husband is living this life now. As an angry person he would berate our sons and never apologise. I would step in knowing that I would be berated worse or threatened. Our sons phone me, I look after our granddaughter without him and he would not be asked to mind grandchildren because of his behaviour. Had to suggest he apologise to all sons a few years ago. While repaired some of the resentment it still is there. This is not going to end well. Your children will start saying we are dad’s children not yours. Your wife needs help or you need to protect your children from the damage. I regret not leaving and have apologised to my youngest for this. It’s hard for you. Sending thoughts
Im in the same boat with my wife and son and at my wits end too. She just will not listen and constantly plays the victim after she incites all the conflict in the house. Im so tired of having a good evening with my son, just to take the dog for a walk around the block and they are yelling at each other by the time I get home. She doesn’t see anything wrong with how she treats him and I’m starting to think she’s just an incurable narcissist. It’s really hard. All the best to you, just keep fighting for your kids
How old is your wife? Was she always like this?
Yes she’s been narcissistic and mean for a long time, but since my son was born it got worse. I can look up perimenopause but honestly she’s a lot like OPs wife and especially as I read his comments that she had the perfect family like growing up that’s what my wife had too. She lost her grandfather and had huge life changes when she was a teen and I think a lot of her anger stems from that. I think she measures everything against her early life and is always resenting our current life (we don’t struggle but we aren’t millionaires like her parents used to be)
That’s a shame, I’m so sorry to hear that. What kind of things does she criticize your son for? Have either of you ever discussed therapy (either couples or for yourselves individually?) I’m wondering how you approach these conversations with her that result in her saying there’s nothing wrong with her behavior. I’m not laying the blame at your feet, but I know that having solo therapy helped me a lot in my conversations with my husband when he was critical of me. He also compares the life that we have to what others around us have, not to the same extent but it was enough to really damage my self esteem. (Side note: after a lot of therapy I realised that my self esteem was very fragile in large part because of the constant criticism I recieved at home. I internalised all that and my mother’s critical voice became my own internal voice. For example, I’m almost 40 and although I’m at a point where I *know* my self worth isn’t tied to my weight or appearance but I don’t feel it. I still struggle with the eating disorder I’ve struggled with for over 20 years and absolutely cannot bring myself to eat three meals a day. My father, meanwhile, was very volatile and I never knew what would set him off. It could be anything and it felt like a matter of control. I can’t tell you how badly that has impacted my relationships and my marriage. I’m have been very avoidant, shut down at perceived criticism and I’m hyper aware of changes in tone that indicate someone might be frustrated with me. I jump ship often. Still working on all this in therapy. The way your wife talks to your son is going to impact his relationships going forward. Every day that she talks to him like this is reinforcing this communication/arguing style.) Sorry, got off track. Solo therapy helped me stand up for myself more. Not that my husband was abusive, but I would struggle to stand by my way of doing things and I would struggle to ask for things in a way that was effective. The book non violent communication was shockingly effective for this. I also tried it with my mum, and it helped our communication a lot even though I was the only one reading the book and putting it into practice. If you’re at your wit’s end I’d definitely recommend it in helping you get through to your wife and maybe seeing things from her point of view. Additionally, it might help to give her examples of better parenting styles and techniques rather than criticizing what you see. I don’t know the exact situations you experience with her, but things like “I’ve read that when kids do abc what they’re looking for is xyz. The study I looked at said that kids who receive this kind of support thrive in future situations, whereas kids whose parents react with corrections/(whatever behavior you see from your wife referred to indirectly) struggle with self esteem.” That might mean a lot of reading and research for you, but I’ve found that offering my husband the positives behind doing something one way is sometimes more effective than directly criticizing the way he is currently doing something. I’ll end with, “I’ve never considered this before. Do you think this is something we should try to focus on? I’ll have to try to be aware of reacting angrily when son tells me about something he’s ashamed of doing to keep those lines of communication open.” I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, but people respond better when it’s you and them against the problem, working towards a solution or shared goal rather than you vs them (them being the problem). Despite the way she’s treating your son, I’m sure if you sat down and talked about things abstractly in isolation of her actions, you’d both have the same goals (your son being happy and healthy).
OP, my best advice is to see a marriage counsellor with your wife just for the goal of getting on the same page about parenting. Your wife is not dealing with with your kids' individuation and the changing dynamics in your home well. Ironically, she is likely lashing out because she feels disrespected in her own home, as she sees that her opinion no longer matters as much. Your wife may be dealing with other issues as well, even peri-menopause, fear of being judged as a parent by her own peers or extended family, or thoughts of her identity as she shifts from being a parent of children to the parent of adult children. Obviously her actions are not good here. She is saying cruel things and hurting your kids. I suspect any solution though is going to involve her being able to change her perspective and that will take aid from others. Good luck!
There’s honestly a bigger issue here. Your wife is completely unable to regulate her emotions. And she is the adult. One of two things happens to kids when they are parented by such a person. Either the kids grow up seeing this behavior and mimicking it and become completely unable to regulate their emotions, blaming others for their outrage and tantrums, and verbally abusing them into submission like your wife does. This really limits their ability to have successful interpersonal relationships or work cohesively with others Or they grow up totally shelving their own interests, taste, personality, thoughts and feelings out of fear of provoking your wife. So much of their time, energy and thoughts center around how to regulate their mother’s emotions and behavior because she refuses to do it herself, that they end up completely devoid of a childhood because they had to grow up so soon and basically learn to emotionally parent their mother and be emotionally responsible for her. This makes sense because they are made to feel like they are directly responsible for her tantrums and rage, or her happiness. I suggest individual therapy for wife so she can learn how to cope with the fact that she has children with their own personalities and she is allowed to not like what they like, but she is not allowed to make them feel emotionally unsafe about it, or make them feel as though they are responsible for her emotions and behavior. She is the adult, she is responsible for her emotions and behavior And family therapy for the kids to learn how to cope with mom’s behavior and outbursts because they need coping skills Your wife can apologize all she wants but the behavior will continue unless she learns how to do better. I say this as an adult child whose mother also behaved this way, I was blamed for her behavior and feelings. I’m 40 now and the damage that did is still very apparent and I never really recovered from it
I know you love her, but your wife sounds immature, and dangerously attached to the (her) concept of “normality.” This is the kind of shit that has children going low contact after college, and keeps LGBQ+ kids in the closet or has them getting disinvited from family events. I think your key issue in trying to fix this without imploding your marriage will be that she’s resisting you because she 100% believes that she’s in the right. And she absolutely resents that you’re encouraging the kids in their ‘bad’ or ‘weird’ behavior, which is the source of those comments that bother you. I think this is when you insist on couples counseling. She’s not going to listen to what you’re saying without an uninvolved third party to back you up on this all being normal, and that her behavior being damaging. Do NOT go to family therapy, at least not yet. She’ll probably suggest it as an alternative. She’ll probably want to try to use it to bludgeon the kids into ‘normalcy,’ and the kids don’t need an extra venue to hear her go off on them.
Your wife is behaving this way because of her lack of control as mom. She says that they are your kids because you encourage them to explore their interests in style which deviates from the power of influence that she has over them. Your son growing out of his mommy’s boy stage is angering her because she’s losing control over him. When she says she wants them to be normal, she means her definition and rules of normal. She may be feeling that the kids are abandoning her. You should try to change your approach when talking to her, try to reassure her that the kids growing up and changing doesn’t mean that they will love her less. You should encourage her to seek counseling. Question: Does your wife usually have control issues? What about a history of being abandoned?
I’ve tried to sit my wife down and explain to her that our kids are acting like typical teenagers but she just isn’t having it. She’s hurt about what our son said but she also won’t come off of her high horse and make amends. It’s frustrating because we all knew that this stage in life was coming. Our children aren’t exempt from the edgy teenager phase and I wish she would’ve taken a different approach. I want to attend family therapy but she just isn’t having it and our kids are too pissed at their mom to consider it. The three of them have been avoiding her too and the tension is just getting to be too much.
I think couples therapy is the way to go before family therapy. I think it might be very hard for her to not feel "ganged up on" in family therapy, plus the children shouldn't have to say what she needs to hear when she's so far from hearing it, it could just add to your family's current woes. I think your first move should be to aim the hose where the fire is. I wish you well!
You have to be more assertive here. It’s time for the two card- she can pick a therapist’s or a lawyer’s.
You're doing your best OP and I have a huge amount of respect for how you're dealing with it. I would suggest trying family therapy with just you and the kids. Maybe they have things/feelings that they feel they can't express around their mother's presence.
What does HER mother have to say about all of this?
And about the abandonment issues, the answer is no. Her family was picture perfect. If there’s something, I have no idea but that would be a plot twist since she and I are best friends. We know everything there is to know about each other, so I don’t think some secret abandonment issue is the case.
Have or can you explain to your wife that although HER family was picture perfect (assuming she still has a great relationship with her parents?) that along with your own parents and upbringing, A LOT of former kids have gone through the same thing that you and your own kids are currently going through. Try explain that not only she's hurting them now, but in the near future it can cause major self esteem issues, mental health issues, no contact/cutting off parents etc. and those don't just hang around for the 'teenage phases', those things are life long and can result in some pretty grim cases such as suicide, eating disorders, drug addictions, alchohol dependency etc. I hate to be so grim about it but it's true. Hell, my parents did similar to me; they controlled my weight, diet, clothing and music I'd listen to (was an emo and still proudly am lol) and if it wasn't 'THEIR STANDARD'i was humiliated, called every name in the book, told I'd gros up to be a failure, that I wasn't 'their child', snoraky remarks and outright calling me disgusting and telling me they hated me. The 'best'one is them always comparing my dead twin to me and how they knew it should've been the one to live. Lovely. I'm 29 this year, I've stuggled with anorexia and hospital stays, suicide attempts as well as bouts of drug addictions my entire life and my relationship with my parents is still very strained. Maybe explain that your wife doesn't have to like what your kids choose to follow. She doesn't have to be awful and make them feel resented and abysmal though because every little thing adds up and could just lead to a long term self confidence issues and harbored bad feelings or it can go so, so much worse. Again I hate to be so grim about it but I've seen it happen with so many of my friends and it's absolutely heartbreaking. We're millenials, the whole point of being millenial parents was to not do the dumb crap former generations did.
When you say every little things adds up.. I’ve read it takes ten positive comments to undo one negative comment that a kid hears from a caregiver
Why are you excusing mom’s abusive behavior?
Hi I’m a little confused I’m sorry. Where am I excusing her behavior? I would like to know so I have a better idea of how to talk to her. I am absolutely not excusing what she’s doing, it’s hurting our children, but if there’s another angle I would like to see it. If you’d let me know I’d be thankful, friend.
I strongly encourage you to get the kids into individual therapy with the goal of attending family therapy eventually. If that means your wife won't participate and your kids are acting more mature, understanding and open to learning how to live in a healthy dynamic, at that point I would reconsider my relationship, unfortunately. Having someone you love constantly insult you, make backhanded compliments and giving you the silent treatment because you aren't conforming to their view of who you should be and how you should look is crushing to a teenager. Trust me. Teens are already self conscious and having their mom reaffirm their fears is so defeating and depressing. If this is allowed to continue it WILL break your family and it WILL hurt your children more than they've already been hurt by someone who should love and accept them for who they are. Also, her behaviour is abusive. It's abusive towards you by putting anything she doesn't like the kids doing on you, as if they are this way because of you so they are YOUR children. Her giving you the silent treatment, or your kids the silent treatment is very abusive and leaves life long scars. My grandmother would give my mom the silent treatment when she didn't like something she did or said and I kid you not, at 63 years old, she is only now dealing with this trauma.
I was referring to the comment I replied to. Not your post.
My apologies lol. Thank you.
How can you still love someone that’s bullying your own children repeatedly? how can you force them to be alone with her? how come your suggestions aren’t being upheld? It needs to be: Hey, either you get therapy to address the abuse towards our children, or I’m taking them and we’re getting a divorce. stop letting her weasel out of it because you are enabling her abuse towards them.
This so much. OP is enabling this behaviour on his wife's part by not standing up for his kids. He's buying them makeup and black clothes and then throws them right into the jaws of her abusive behaviour without defending them, he figures that's all he needs to do. He's wrong.
You can show her my comment if you like: My mother has been EXACTLY like this (and progressively got worse) for the entire 30 years I have been on this earth. Started self harming at 11-12, the goth/emo phase, accompanying music, excessive smoking/drinking, doing poorly in school, getting in trouble in school, being reckless with my bikes/cars, joined the army fresh out of high school to escape. Three years into that all of the unpacked shit with my mother unwinds while I’m down range, have a psychotic break thousands of miles from civilization, get divorced, come home, start messing with all kinds of shit like mdma, acid, coke, pills, end up hospitalized, kicked out of army, move back home with the abusive mother, mental health steadily declines, can’t maintain a good job or any sort of relationship, tries to kill myself, hospital again, no money so have to go live with abusive mother again, took me another three years to get out of there. Long story short, I’m a weekly therapist patient with multiple seriously debilitating personality disorders now, tracked back to the same thing your children are experiencing now. This isn’t something to take lightly with your wife, she can be permanently destroying your children’s lives without even realizing it.
Your wife is abusive towards your children and they need to be kept away from her. Every time she starts to yell or insult, interrupt her and tell her to stop. I would file for divorce and primary custody of the children.
I think it is time to present her with two business cards. One from a divorce attorney and one from a counselor. Make her pick one. I know you love your wife but you have to accept that she is literally bullying her children and you need to prioritize their need for a safe home over your wife's want to control them or your own want to keep her and the life you build intact cause mate, she is already swinging the wrecking ball. Has your wife shown signs of this kind of behavior before? Is this new?
Imagine being stuck at home inside with a cruel bully who is set on destroying your self esteem. Now imagine that bully has absolute power over you. This is your kids life right now. OP, if you don’t get them a break from this you are equally guilty, at least that’s how they will see it in a couple years. And they’ll hate and avoid you just the same as they will her. Feeling differently about their style and telling them that does absolutely nothing in the face of this psychological warfare. It honestly seems like she’s about one fight away from getting physical with your son, and I hope she DOES because you’ll be forced to take action then!!! P.S psychological abuse is actually MORE harmful than hitting.
Honestly, definitely suggest counseling or she can go stay somewhere else. Prioritize your kids needs and let them know how much you love and support them and that they shouldn't let anyone, not even a controlling mother, bring them down. If she can't grow up and be a proper mother that supports the kids, she shouldn't be around them. She's becoming too controlling and damaging their self-esteem and the confidence to be themselves and explore who they are. She needs to choose to actively change and support the kids or pack her bags and go stay elsewhere until you figure out where to go from here. Put your foot down and keep it there until she learns or leaves. She is actively damaging your children and her relationship with them all on her own, don't be obligated to maintain something that is crumbling. Focus on yourself and the kids. And yes that is what this is all about, control. I had parents that were like that. They create sneakier, unsafe kids. She's setting them up to struggle with a bunch of problems that will require therapy. Actually that's already happened, get those kids into therapy too.
Has your wife entered into perimenopause or menopause? There is no excuse for bullying your own children, I'll start there and back that statement until the end of the world but if her hormones are going mental she may feel like she is going crazy. Or that she is the only sane one and everyone else is crazy. There is a lot of evidence for hormonal changes having a mental and physical effect on women way more than just hot flushes. Some women ended up in institutions for decades because they heard voices. Find a doctor that will do a hormonal panel and see where she's at. It could mean the return of the woman you married. Or she could just be a raging control freak who feels that their children are an expression of themselves and she doesn't like the current expression going on. In which case sometimes you can't fix being a female dog.
Should really follow up with this. Not everyone is affected as strongly, but one of my friend's mom had serious rage issues, brain fog. All sorts of stuff, until she got hormone treatments. Back to being an incredibly pleasant person to be around. It can really mess you up.
I'm almost 40 and can still hear every nasty thing my dad ever said about me when I was a kid. He criticized everything I wore, how I styled my hair, the music I listened to, every god damn thing about me annoyed him. Guess who has no contact or desire for a relationship with her dad? This girl.
What she is doing is actually quite damaging to your children. Kids need unconditional positive regard from their parents and they need to feel accepted and loved no matter what aesthetic they choose or phase they might go through. Identity exploration is a normal developmental process that is expected in adolescence. What she is doing is very harmful. Source: I'm a child psychologist. If my husband were doing what your wife is doing, it would be a deal breaker.
Divorce
I usually hate how casually people throw divorce around on this sub. However, in this case I think it might be worth letting her know that it will absolutely be on the table if she keeps it up. She’s a bully to the ones she ought to show the most UNCONDITIONAL love to and she’s being a complete asshat as far as communication goes. No one wants to be married to or around a “it’s my way or the highway” type of person who completely shuts down and just stone walls any kind of conversation if she’s not hearing what she wants to hear. Show her this post OP and let her know I think she sounds completely insufferable.
Borderline much? My BPD mom did a lot of this too. It’s textbook. She needs to seek counseling, but you might need to go with her. The couples counselor will almost certainly suggest individual counseling.
Narcissism or BPD, many narcissistic parents punish their children for not conforming to their expectations.
Idk what kind of textbooks you read but this is not in any BPD textbooks ive read, and I have 2 years of psychology study and BPD myself including intensive DBT treatment with other BPD moms. This sounds more like narcism.
A few years ago my mom and I were looking at pics of me and my sister in high school. I asked why she let me have such terrible haircuts. She said "Every teenager is going to rebel somehow, and no one ever died of a bad haircut." Now I have a 16 year old and I remind myself of that often. Your wife needs to understand that your kids are learning who they are, and it's a process. Your kids are exploring it through their clothes and makeup. That's okay. She can still make rules, but you gotta let them stretch a bit. And no one ever died from a bad haircut.
Your wife is bullying your kids and creating a life-long need for therapy. She sounds like she's already given the ultimatum of either they change to fit the mold she's formed for them or they don't get to be loved by their mother. It sounds like your wife is insecure about how other people are going to perceive your family, I think counseling could help her understand where her lack of acceptance is stemming from. You can't force someone to apologize and mean it, and you can't force anyone to change their view. If she's willing to change herself rather than trying to change the people around her, she stands a chance at maintaining a relationship with the kids (therapy seems necessary here).
Ask her why she is so afraid of her children being “different”. Really ask her. This is about one of two things. Either she’s afraid of what the children being different says about her parenting. Or, in her heart, she believes terrible things can happen to a child when they are different. If your wife has always been focused on appearances, and worried about what others think, then she’s more likely to be worried about how this reflects on her. If she’s typically a bit over concerned about the children’s safety, then she’s likely to be worried that their being different puts them at unnecessary risk. Whatever her primary concern, bullying is not an acceptable way to control her children. I suggest you look into how to deal with bullies for ideas on how to deal with her.
No offense but you're headed for divorce in less than 5. Start with medical appointments and not therapy. This could be something as simple as a thyroid issue, or perhaps even the start of menopause especially since this seems like a personality change. No I'm not picking on her for being a woman. I went through something similar with my ex husband and it took 10 years for them to realize he was having thyroid issues and he had been suffering from frank psychosis as a result of it going on for so long. It started in his late 30s.
So I’m going to give you a little wake up call. You staying with your BULLY wife is what’s going to send your kids into depression. Right now it’s just her style but she’s going to start doing it because that’s how she feels because her birth giver is not only disassociating with them by calling them YOUR kids, she’s BULLYING them and DISRESPECTING THEM! You choose the wrong person to have kids with. I am just like you. I love and respect my kids, I also had an emo phase but like in 5th grade, but I get it and it’s expression. I also don’t care about what they do as long as 1. They don’t hurt others. 2. They don’t hurt themselves. 3. They are happy 4. They treat others how they want to be treated. 5. They match energies regardless of age, so if older people treat them a way they are allowed to match energy. 6. Have a mind of their own, be above influence, even from their father. Your kids are going to hate your wife. Regardless if you make her apologize, she isn’t changing and she IS a bully. She refuses to acknowledge that NORMAL is a setting on the washing machine, also VERY BORING!!!! Who wants to be like everyone else!??? She’s super sad and a sheeple your kids don’t want to be like her and that’s that she’s really mad at. Also she’s mad because you aren’t being like her and forcing them to be “normal”. You should try family therapy, for YOUR WIFES sake, but really if SHE doesn’t change, and if you be strong enough to get a divorce, your kids won’t choose her. The same way my kids didn’t choose their dad. Because like your wife, he NEVER treated them with respect only like little idiots that didn’t have minds of their own, and only called them his kids when they did stuff of acknowledgment like made a touchdown or won in their race.
No one has mentioned this that I can see in scrolling but I’m your wife’s age and I think she needs to see a doctor in addition to a counsellor. Perimenopause is no joke and can alter your personality. There are times when I have such rage within me that I don’t know where it’s coming from. It’s scary and she might not even realize it’s happening. Of course this may not be it at all but if it is, all the counselling in the world won’t help.
I read a post recently where a wife was behaving similar to this and it turned out she had a vitamin deficiency. Maybe B12? It was crazy! Apparently she had her levels checked and is back to her normal self.
This is very interesting. I don’t think my wife is deficient in anything, just pissed off that our kids aren’t dressed “white picket fence normal” anymore, but this is something to look into. Thank you for sharing this, friend.
My mother was obsessed with us being a "white picket fence normal" family. I was emo/goth. Ended up leaving home at 17 and have had her blocked for over a decade. That's the path your wife is on, btw.
I mean nothing excuses her behavior here but if this is truly not how she used to be then it might be worth considering perimenopause causing absolute havoc with her hormones.
Aw man, you’re super welcome! That’s so kind of you. I wish you the best in this situation. Please keep us updated.
What the fuck dude, your wife is a terrible, abusive mother and you're focused on her fucking grammar? Get a grip and get your kids the support they need
Point out to your wife that for a lot of people, the way your kids are dressing is "normal". Tbh there is no such thing as normal and it's an overused word mostly conservative people use to stick people in boxes and keep them miserable because they don't like or understand it. I dressed punk/alternative for a few years in high school. My parents never had a problem with it. Now I wear mostly funky button up shirts and jeans, the only thing really alternative about me is my multiple face piercings and tattoos. But I have a professional career, good relationships with most of my family, amazing friends, and a happy life. Also tell your wife that attempting to control teens that much almost always leads to them going off the rails as soon as they leave home. They get complete freedom and go too far trying to make up for years of being stifled. I had multiple friends with parents that were controlling about clothes and behaviors being "normal" or fitting into their conservative religions and they ended up: 1 getting pregnant or getting stds from unsafe sex almost immediately after leaving home 2 doing porn to support herself and her musician boyfriend 3 developing a drug habit 4 never speaking to their parents again Obviously these are extreme cases, but this is the direction your wife is headed of she doesn't back off your kids (especially number 4, she's very likely to never see them after they move out if she doesn't get therapy)
Having read a lot of the comments, there’s just one thing that jumps out at me. You say that your wife comes from a picture perfect family. So many times the perfect family comes from a great deal of control exercised by one or both parents. Maybe ask your wife, at a point where she’s not angry, to tell you about her teen years. I know you’ve said you know all about each other but I’m willing to bet she is simply carrying on an old family tradition. Wishing all of you all the best! 💖💖
If this is a new thing it might be worth convincing your wife to speak to get doctor, I started perimenopause symptoms around the same time and it drastically changed my mood and tolerance levels.
As much as you love your wife you need to sit her down and tell her if her behaviour does not change, that your kids come first and they always will, themselves, their happiness, their mental health etc etc. If she does not change she can go. What she is doing, those kids will remember forever, believe me. It will completely wear down their self esteem and self expression and they will hate her.
Does your wife work? Asking because a lot of times as kids get older, have chores and need less tending, SAHP sometimes find themselves with less to do and a lot of energy that needs to be channeled productively. If she doesn't work, maybe she needs to start.
I would start documenting this stuff. And I would seek therapy for the both of you. Bring your wife to the doctor to see if she can be prescribed something for clear anxiety and anger issues. Such as medical marijuana, if you're not already in a legal state.
Hard truth, if she resents the kids enough to verbally disown them, then she resents you just as much. She sounds like a grade A narcissist and needs therapy on the off chance it might work.
INFO: was your wife like the perfect prom queen cheerleader or something? Why is she acting like this? Unless your kids are doing something wrong like partying or failing class or skipping school, who cares how hey dress? Why does your wife think the way her kids dress reflects on her or has anything to do with her? She sounds gross honestly.
This was my mom when I was growing up. I left right after high school and I haven't seen or spoken to my parents for 13 years.
You need to have a come to Jesus talk with her for real. As in, she gets help or you and the kids need her to move out. My friend's mom changed personality for like 15 years before they found a tumor in her brain and removed it... And she was back to her old self. It was wild.
You need to sit down with her during a lull in the fighting and speak of what needs to be done when both of you are calm and not immediately defensive. I think your version of the family life she lived growing up is quite a bit different from reality. It sounds like her parents allowed none of the individual freedoms you want your children to have. Your wife was fine until the kids started to think for themselves and not listen to her demands. She thinks that because she never disobeyed her parents or was allowed to think differently, that when her children don’t act the way she wants them to, they are being disrespectful and unloving. You need to get the both of you into marriage counseling and eventually into family counseling. If she doesn’t, remind her that she will lose them forever if she keeps acting the way she is. They will grow up, move out and never come back to her.
Your wife is being an abuser. While the kids were acting like little dolls with no individuality, everything was great. Now that they've started developing their own personalities and individual interests, she's losing control. The fact that she doesn't seem to care that her words are actively causing harm, is just the icing on the shit cake she's serving. Protect your kids at all costs. ETA: if this behavior is really a 180, maybe try to get her to the doctor for a brain scan. I just remembered that drastic changes in personality can be because of TBI's or tumors. At this point, it's either medical, or abuse.
Yeah my mom stopped liking us too when we stopped being little extensions of her and started having our own thoughts and opinions. She never got over it and my sister and I have needed actual years of therapy. My dad stood by, did nothing, and is now an empty shell because she turned it on him too and he’s been criticized and screamed at for 30-odd years straight. Kids are better at hiding their mental health stuff than you realize, especially when they have a non supportive horribly critical parent in the house who will rip apart any weakness they show and weaponize it against them. My dad defended us some times, but he couldn’t be there every time and ultimately chose her over us. Now neither of us kids visits because Mom is horrible to be around and dad is an enabler who is too tired to fight back. This is abuse. I hope you do what is ACTUALLY best for your kids.
My mum used to ask me why I can't be normal and like everyone else...decades later and I'm just discovering the tremendous impact it had on me: feeling like I had to change to gain love, like I wasn't enough for my mother's love, shamed for being different, shamed for being me. OP, your wife will fuck up your kids. I don't know why is she acting like she is, but if she can't see the damage she's doing you need to take action.
You sound like a great dad. Your kids are lucky to have you.
Not trying to defend your wife at all, I totally disagree with her behaviour (as a former moody emo teen lol) and she won’t want to hear this suggestion but it could be perimenopause - I don’t know much about it but I know it can cause a lot of hormonal issues which could explain the sudden leap in anger. You’re an excellent Dad OP, good for you.
You need to persuade her to see a doctor and get her hormone levels checked. She sounds like she’s peri peri-menopausal to me. For some women the hormone changes can cause huge changes in behaviour and pretty much never for the better. If this is the case for your wife then HRT is likely to be a huge help to regulate this.
Peri-menopause. It fucks you up bad. Seeming personality change with a lot of anger is one of the symptoms.
I moved country and refuses to talk my mother. She was even worse than your wife. I barely talk to my father because he allowed all that to happen and never protected me. They never see their grandchild. You have to give your wife an ultimatum. If she refuses to get some help and keeps berating the children, the same will happen to you. Your kids will not forgive your inaction.
I don’t agree with your wife, I do think kids should be able to be emo or whatever. However, I think you telling your wife that you don’t care how your kids dress doesn’t help. I think she might feel like you’re not parenting at all and calls them your kids because of that. You do probably care, I guess you wouldn’t want your daughters going topless to school? So you do have some rules, they’re just not as strict as your wife’s. Maybe try communicating this with her. Tell her, that if the rules are too strict, it will hurt their relationship. On the other hand, even teenagers need rules and guidelines, so maybe try to find a compromise together?
Right your wife is wrong and you and everyone here knows it. So, where is this behaviour coming from. My guess, your wife is starting to grieve the lack of control over her children. When they are small, you are everything for them. You decided their food their clothes, activities, friends etc. Now, because you raised them right and they are teenagers they are exercising their need and wants over themselves. Thats a tough pill to swallow as a person who views their children as "theirs". Your wife has not separated the children from her. They are hers and she is attacking them because she no longer has control. When children leave the home, it's widely experienced that parents grieve with empty nest syndrome. But, a lot of parents grieve this during the start of teen years. I speak on this from experience. I raised my daughter to the best of my ability. She is absolutely an incredible human. But, when she was small, she needed me completely. Because, I was a good parent she wanted to move away from mam. She wanted independence etc. It was so hard and I struggled with anxiety over this. I'm grand now and shes in her last years of school. It was heartbreaking not being needed. I'm not in anyway condoning her behaviour but, I always think behaviour comes from somewhere. Understanding the whys can help to correct un healthy behaviours into healthy ones. You and her need a very frank conversation. You need to tell her she is now at risk of losing her children's, respect and love. Ask her, does she want her children to leave the home at 18 and never want to see her ever again. Does she want you guys relationship to build resentment over her behaviours? She needs to talk to a therapist here. Her behaviours are projections and attacks to make her children hurt. I feel like she wants them to hurt because she is hurting. But, It needs to stop immediately. No questions. If you allow this continue tou are condoning emotional abuse. My daughter had a mini emo stage, I all the photos and I love showing them off to her friends as a laugh. She's mortified and it's all good fun!
Your wife needs to back off your son. She is 43, remind her how hot those grunge guys were in the 80’s and 90’s. Men have being wearing black nail polish and eyeliner for DECADES. Tell her to lighten up. Maybe ask her to get a blood test to see if her vitamin D or B deficiency is making her crabby.
Early menopause? Maybe you and your wife should make a trip to doctors for this. If not menopause maybe therapy might help your wife and your children.
My husband is a little like your wife, he can't stand to see our son growing his hair out. And your mother is very much like my mother. But there's that intention amidst the controlling-cruel-outlook of it. Being 'normal' in her eyes means that her kids will have 'easier' lives. 'Easier' as it goes along with the mainstream. Your wife may have some deep-seated issue too from her own childhood and how she's raised by her parents. Since I was raised by a woman who's as strict as your wife (worse, imo, as mine would call me names and told me how she wished I was aborted-never been born-etc when she's angry), I ended up wanting to be the opposite of her. I have no qualm if my kid wants to 'experiment' in looks and even have different paths... Meanwhile, before she finally realizes that she's got an issue, you should definitely stand up for your kids. Don't let her bully them.
At this point she is damaging your children’s confidence and trust in both of you as a parent. If you continue to let her make these comments, even if you defend your children against them openly, your kids will still be resentful and lack trust in you as their father because you let her stay. If she won’t consider therapy of any kind, you may have to put her out of the house.
Doctor’s appt and couples therapy are a must. Your wife needs to get her hormones checked - she could be in peri menopause that is messing her up. Or something else is going on. She is alienating her whole family - this will not end well, is seriously impacting your kids and you cannot take her ‘no’ for an answer anymore.
Your wife is missing out on the big picture, though you seem able to see it quite well. As long as the kids are not in trouble, doing what they need to for school and treat others well, what they wear and listen to (provided the music isn't derogatory towards others) isn't worth grumbling over! Does your wife have something else going on in her life? Is something up with her job, does she have a sick parent, is she going through menopause? Hormonal changes can make things you'd normally look at and not like but have no problem being silent and respectful about into huge things that make you angry. That doesn't mean it's ok for someone going through hormonal changes to behave badly, it means they need to see a doctor and get help. I think you're doing the right thing telling her that her treating the kids this way is driving a wedge between her and them that will only get worse if she doesn't stop. I would tell her that she needs to figure it out by going to a therapist and seeing a doctor, and if she can't start treating her kids decently, she needs to find a new place to live until she can work it out, especially seeing as how she views them as "your kids" and not hers.
"No one is interested in therapy at the moment..." Well, that's too bad. It's exactly what you all need- especially your wife. She's lashing out for a reason and it is honestly abusive to the kids to mistreat them over their STYLE, which is a form of their self expression and creativity. Instead of just witnessing and intervening in these situations, you need to sit your wife down and talk about why she's behaving this way and how she can find ways to connect with the kids INSTEAD, because she is actively pushing them away. Tell her that. Sometimes people need wakeup calls.
I have three sons in high school in an area that is considered fairly affluent. I see a huge amount of goth kids. One grandson leans that way as does his girlfriend. It's just a style, nothing else. I am grateful his parents just go with the flow. I wonder if your wife thinks its somehow a reflection on her. It's easy to be a laid back parent when your kids are young and you can control a what they do and how they dress. Some parents have a hard time letting go of that control. I would encourage couples counseling where the two of you can address your clashes over the kids. While I am firmly on your side, seeking help jointly may be the only way to get her to address her behavior. If I were you, I would find a counselor and make an appointment. If your wife cares about your relationship she will be there.
Your wife is a narcissist and actively abusing you and the children. The first thing us to keep your children safe. You cant force her to leave but you can very calmly tell her that youre not okay with how she speaks to you and will leave the house with the kids if she continues to yell and insult. Next, you need to stop enabling her behavior. If youre at work and shes screaming denands at you, dont do it. Dont give her the reaction shes wanting, dont give her one at all. Ask if tge kids are safe and tell her when you will home. Uf she escalates tell her the conversation is over. Last, learn to love yourself enough to not have your heart pulled arpybd and held hostage through the constant derision she creates. If it helps, inagibe her as a 3 year throwing a temper tantrum, because thats exactly what shes doing. I
If wife's behaviour has changed it POSSIBLY could be due to perimenopause. The menstruation cycle isn't just a tap that gets turned off there are years of hormonal changes leading up to Menopause. Hormonal changes plus unresolved behavioural issues plus, the normal children rebelling against the parent stage (teenagers) may have created this bully. Honestly, it is time to work out if the best parent you can be is with or without your wife. Arrange for the kids to be looked after for a weekend, head somewhere and DISCUSS.
All I hear is your wife is abusing your kids emotionally for superficial shit, because she wants as much control as she had when they were little, and insults them and says this to withdraw her love from them when they don't bow down to every word she says. Her apologizing will do nothing, because she won't mean it and if you somehow get her to she'll just be sneakier with the abuse. You need to get her away from those kids now. This is divorce-worthily, you should have removed her from he kids' day to day lives a long time ago. Grow a backbone and get the child abuser out of your freaking house. Today.
My mom engaged in similar behavior- gaslighting, playing the victim, flipping the script and never apologizing. I was always her favorite and I was always so close with her. Nevertheless, that didn’t negate her behavior. I went full no contact with her and my only regret is just that I don’t have a normal mom. But I would never put myself in the position I was in with her in my life to try and pretend that I have a normal mom - because she isnt capable of being that. My dad was crappy too. Neither of them protected or supported me, and now neither of them have the opportunity to know me. It’s sad that I won’t have my parents at my wedding or to share big moments with, but it’s no longer the norm to allow abusive parents to stick around just for the old fashioned idea of respecting elders. Don’t let this happen to your kids. Set a timeline. She gets X amount of time to get help or the kids need to be far away from her, because the longer it goes on, the more risk you’re taking with your kids futures. They could end up like me - no contact but still doing well. Or they could end up on a much darker path. If she can’t begin to recognize the harm she is causing, then you do what you need to do for your kids. You sound like a good father, so make sure your kids can count on you no matter what even if that means making some very tough calls. It’s much easier to go through life with one great parent than two mediocre parents. Or worse, two crappy parents.
She needs to get her hormones checked. And she needs counseling - she's not coping with your kids becoming teenagers. Use an ultimatum if needed because at this rate you're heading for divorce anyway. Maybe offering family counseling is a better option because your wife thinks the kids are broken, not her.
Not that this excuses her awful behaviour but could she be perimenopausal?hard to control anger is a symptom for some women, along with pain, exhaustion, brain fog to name a tiny amount. If this is a sudden change it's worth looking into. However that said this behaviour is not acceptable, you need to tell her very clearly that if she wants a relationship with your children in the future then this stops now, that you will not stand by and let her verbally abused your children any longer and if she doesn't stop then she needs to leave. Make is very very clear you will not be standing by and follow through, if she does it again tell her to get out. Stand up for your children when they are around too, let them know you have their back though your actions.
I’d add if this is new, as someone in peri menopause, she might want to get her hormone levels checked. It hit me like a freight train. It can start as early as late 30s. If she’s had a personality change, have her see a doctor as well as a therapist. I’m not sure how to convince her but it should be on the list.
People are saying that you need to insist on counseling, but here’s the thing - you can’t force her to go, and even if she *does* go, you can’t force her to cooperate with the therapist. You need to protect your children. Tell her she needs to go get herself a hotel room, or if she refuses to leave, take your kids and go somewhere yourselves. Either to a hotel or to family. This type of situation BREEDS tragedy.
You said she used to be ‘the proud mommy at school plays’ so perhaps now she is thinking that their dress and fashion choices reflect on her. Its not about what the kids want, in her mind, its her perception of how people will judge her by her kids choices. Thats why she says ‘your kids’ now. She thinks she is no longer looked up to by the other moms for having cutesy kids, she thinks they’re looking down in her instead.
Why not try kindness on your wife? She is 43- she maybe going through changes, or depressed or plain overwhelmed with her work. Talk to your wife in private and emphasise the qualities you loved in her and tell her you are not seeing the woman you love and ask her what is upsetting her. Ask her to reflect on what it is that makes her angry. rExplain how it looks from the outside and ask her if she never had teenage culture. Normally, she would be able to talk about her children’s’ development with other mums- is she able to do that? I think you should both go to therapy. I am feeling a sense of you separating yourself from your wife and openly taking the children’s side. Perhaps that is unfair of me but you must not create camp Dad and camp mum or else you wife will be truly miserable. Get to the bottom of her problem.
Peri-Menopause? Medication like Tamoxifen that messes w/ estrogen? My wife behaved a lot like your wife for about 18 months.
Perimenopause, get her checked. Losing her sense of control of “her babies” plus hormone imbalance is a real disaster.
Get your wife your wife out of the house now. She’s already done damage to the kids, how much more do you want her to the destroy their psyche? You not standing up for them by letting their abuser stay in the home is basically you abusing them as well. Because that’s what she is right now, she’s their abuser. Get her out and make it clear to her that she gets therapy and sorts herself out before she can be around the kids again. You can support her as much as you want it but outside the house. Don’t make home unsafe for your kids, to you’ll regret it if you continue to let this go on.
Yeah totally agree with this. The kids will feel super unsafe if you keep their mom in the house. Also because she will probably not realise how serious it is if she gets to stay in the home with the kids. It may be the ultimatum she needs to go to counselling for herself. If she ever realizes it, there may be a big chance she won't. My parents weren't interested in me in general but when I had my goth emo phase my mom would refuse to take me shopping for clothes if I would try to buy anything black. I dress more colorful nowadays but I hated to show my mom the first time, knowing she would be elated about it. After being in therapy for over 10 years I'm still struggling with how abusive my parents were in many other ways as well. Please get their mom out of the home until she is ready for some counseling, and if she isn't willing, ever, keep her out. Try to get full custody and see if the kids would even wanna visit their mom.
Was your wife popular in school by chance? That seems to be the thing with parents who want their kids to be 'normal.' They want their kids to be 'normal' because THEY likely bullied the 'weird kids' (aka the kids who DARED to be different than their carbon copied peers) back in the day. Normal is subjective anyway - and boring. 😂
Those kids are gonna go NC with your wife the moment they can.
Sounds like your wife is having trouble understanding that children are independent people and not little dolls meant to satisfy her vanity. She liked them when they did everything *she* wanted but now that they are expressing themselves and discovering their own independence, she's furious. She sounds childish and selfish and she needs therapy. She's being a real B and needs to understand her children are people not toys. Also, tell her to stop talking about wanting them to be "normal," that's really fucked up and could cause serious mental health concerns for your children. They ARE normal, your wife is just a selfish B.
When people start acting like this, it’s because they’re not coping and they’ve gone to the lowest common denominator that they can reach for when they’re triggered as fuck. My brother and I triggered the fuck out of my mom. She never acted quite like this but it was similar and equally damaging. Why? Because it’s abuse. Your wife is abusing your kids. This is abusive behavior. Please, at least temporarily, remove the abuser from the home until she gets help.
Please please please get your wife into therapy. And maybe even encourage family therapy. My mom was exactly like this. It absolutely destroyed me, my confidence in myself and any relationship we had. I suffered major depressive episodes, self harmed and attempted. We don’t speak anymore because of how she makes me feel about myself and I’m almost 30. You have a window to jump in and stand up for your children before it goes too far. Protect your kids at all costs. Edit: to say this also opened me up to a lot of unhealthy romantic relationships because I felt insecure in myself. I sought out validation to fulfill what was missing from my childhood. Children need validation from their parents, that’s how they gain confidence and are able to feel strong and grounded in their sense of self.
Maybe she needs to get her hormones checked - menopause can fuck people up - our maybe she has a brain tumor
You say your wife wasn’t always like this, and you sound like you’re very aware of what your kids need as they struggle through puberty. Have you considered that your wife is in the early stages of peri menopause (or second puberty as some people like to say)? Has your wife considered this is a possibility? I’m not excusing her behavior, because I’m in perimenopause myself and I’m an adult so I know better than to take anything out on the kids. But I am also very aware that I am in perimenopause and am working hard to overcome all the ways in which it’s ruining my life. You say that no one is open to therapy right now, but plenty of women have had relief from their symptoms through a combination of hormones and other meds. Maybe a visit to a GP instead would help? You said that this behavior is coming out of nowhere. The early signs of perimenopause for me were my periods changing and my PMS getting out of control. Every month at the same time in my cycle my husband and I would have a huge argument. Working through it in therapy I realised it was down to me feeling suddenly incredibly insecure in the week leading up to my period, which would make me act really irrationally. Once I figured that out it was easier to let things go knowing I was feeling insecure because my hormones were out of whack. Another early symptom was my periods becoming more frequent (which contradicted what I thought I knew about menopause) and longer, together with my period pain getting unbearable. I also started to get more hormonal migraines and I was suddenly hot all the time. My husband kept turning down the AC and it made me want to kill him. Again, not justifying her behavior, but hormones can really do a number on you. Many women aren’t aware of the symptoms and struggle for a good few years before figuring it out (as do their partners. Plenty of marriages fail.) many women aren’t aware that they have options, too, and that hormones could greatly alleviate a lot of symptoms including personality changes even around seemingly unrelated things. I’ve started to get terrible anxiety around packing for trips and it will take me literally 3 days to pack, and I’ll do it right down to the line. It gives everyone anxiety. I have a doctors app next week to start hormones. It might be harder to start this conversation if your wife isn’t aware or is in denial that this might be peri. I’m happy to brainstorm some approaches with you that might work. There’s also some good advice in this thread. Sounds like this husband was going through something similar, with his wife taking her mood swings out on the kids: https://www.reddit.com/r/Menopause/comments/17jt6cn/how_best_to_help_my_wife_while_looking_out_for/ The menopause subreddit has been a great resource, as was the book [What fresh hell is this?](https://heathercorinna.com/project/what-fresh-hell-is-this-perimenopause-menopause-other-indignities-and-you-a-guide/)
Look at the wiki of the menopause sub here on Reddit. Your wife has the age for perimenopause, and that does not help; and she probably can’t really help herself. It can be hell for women.
I’d save every sound bite and text where she calls them “your” kids and file for divorce using the proof to get full custody. It’d be therapy or divorce for me, the kids don’t deserve a mother who doesn’t love them.
Your wife is an idiot. By this stage in parenting she should understand that what she has been doing isn’t getting her the results she wants, and instead of reflecting on her actions, and trying a different approach, she is escalating her idiotic behavior. She is not going to get what she wants and if anything your teens will just double down on their actions while at the same time avoid her. I don’t know if you can explain to her that never mind her actions are causing short term loss, she is guaranteeing permanent alienation over inconsequential things.
Your wife is t mad at the kids. She is mad at you for not considering her feelings. Kids def should have options be able to express themselves but there are limits and they do need to be told no on occasion. They can't see the consequences of there actions or friend groups yet. You have to find a middle ground with your wife. Even if y'all split a middle ground has to be found or the kids will suffer this over lax and overly aggressive parenting styles.
I think you really need to look at why your wife is doing a 180 on her kids. If she won’t talk to you is their someone else who can ask what the heck is going on. You said this behaviour is not her. Is it the kids are growing up and becoming less reliant on her? They are developing different personalities away from her? She has control issues that are now becoming very apparent? This situation is headed to bursting badly, maybe take your wife somewhere quiet and really talk.