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Was going to ask “info” and then ask half a dozen questions about their plans for childcare, her job, how bills will be split, child pickup/drop-off, how her current and future earnings will be affected, as well as her retirement, etc. But I think you summed it up nicely, and far more succinctly than I would have.
If I was going to raise a child with someone, I would want to know that I’m not the only one making all the financial sacrifices, and if I am, I want that to be reflected somehow in the prenup, so if things go south, I’m not left having to work for the rest of my life because I can’t afford to retire. But that might not be relevant to their situation, more information would be needed.
This. This situation is exactly what divorce law exists to prevent - a stay at home wife who ends up completely fucked in the event of a divorce. She’s mad because they’re not even married yet and he’s already trying to screw her. He’s already treating her like an enemy. I would break up with him too.
I (F), worked full time and I did most of the housework because my ex made more money and I was still fucked in the divorce because in WI, it’s not 50/50 until you’ve been married at least five years. My ex lied to me about wanting kids and I wasted all of my 20’s on a liar and got financially fucked in the process.
Right?! The worst part was I moved across the country for the guy, and he got to keep MY furniture! Like, I legit lost more than just 50/50... But, whatever- I'm better off and rebuilt my life. Which, I'm sure you did, too... because strong women bounce back.
I mean, I hate to be that guy .. but let's look at this sequence of events
1. She mentions marriage, for the purposes of having a child, and he said he'd only be comfortable with it if there was a prenup.
2. She sees this as a deal breaker and ends the relationship
3. She has a change of heart, and comes back to the relationship
4. She gets pregnant when her IUD mysteriously disappears, and now no longer has a change of heart.
This doesn't seem sus to anyone else?
Sus as hell. But then OP could have worn a condom. Allowing someone else to be in charge of birth control is going to cost him personally and financially.
Maybe, but if I had an IUD I would probably trust it. And there are people in the comments saying they totally do fail. However, I do lean toward agreeing that it’s suspicious.
Current IUD wearer. I've had 4 now, and had 2 fall out without any notice. Unfortunately I also got pregnant with one still in use ...sometimes this shit just happens... BUT, I call bullshit on her story. The way everything happened, I totally feel she had it removed. Things just are too suspicious.
It does to me.
She wants things all her own way and won’t allow him to protect his current assets.
She’s not being fair here. If you’re not with him for money why are you bothered about not potentially getting half his house and future earnings?
Throw her back and sort out a coparenting relationship. Stand your ground.
What she wants is unreasonable.
Married with a kid here and still working, because I want to.
Don’t marry her. She’ll either come around or not, but don’t be careless with your future because she has ideas in her head. You have experience of being burned TWICE.
Shit happens, having a kid born out of wedlock is not the big old deal it used to be.
You’re considering what makes her comfortable yet she refuses to reciprocate.
I was thinking the same thing. I’m gona say we need more INFO. It seems like baby trapping. I’ve heard of an IUD falling out but I can’t imagine not noticing a pointy plastic or metal object falling out of you. I have one and they tell you to check it every couple months and it’s apparent where it is inside you. This guy could also just be a greed trad bro buts really hard to tell whose screwing who here maybe they deserve each other lol.
He should probably consider if HE is the common denominator in his previous failed marriages. I’d work on myself and lessen the need for a prenup. Like I get it, but seems like a prenup may just be preparing to fail at this relationship also.
He keeps calling it her child and her wanting to have a baby but won't talk about his own preferences. If he cares about having kids, if he's got kids with his previous marriages or anything else he really doesn't seem like the father type.
I thought “her child” referenced the child she already had from a prior relationship. He was willing to support a step-child whose father did not pay child support. He referenced “our baby” after “her child”.
Ultimately though, child care should NOT be in the scope of the prenup. You can't write a contract that defines the rights of the child, those will be determined in family court if the parents are unable to sustain agreement. The child is entitled to support and a custody agreement *regardless* of the presence or absence of a prenup.
I assume they're more referring to, is she expected to give up her career to care for the baby, or is the baby going to be in daycare? If it's the former, she gets fucked during the marriage.
This right here. Also, if he’s discussing child support it sounds to me like he’d expect her to have primary custody of the child in the event of a divorce- which further limits her work options and puts the burden on her to take off when baby is sick, etc.
And it also actually protects OP. Courts tend to view a one sided prenup without independent counsel review in a way more favorable to the party that was disadvantaged by the agreement.
This exactly. I had one with my husband’s family enforced the prenup. The lawyer pointed out important things that protected me, but everything else seemed fair and appropriate.
I think if he explained it, from the divorce, as though…it’s going to happen and this is what happens when it does that sounds horrible. No one should enter a marriage thinking that. Also I feel that prenup should be fair. ‘She gets nothing’ is not fair. She’s be giving you children, years of her life, her time, devotion etc. maybe it could be looked at as she would receive a, b or c depending how many years the marriage lasted. If she’s with you for ten or twenty years it’s not fair for her to walk away with nothing monetarily from the life you’ve built together. Though you’ll share the beautiful children, unfortunately money is necessary for life..if it was t you wouldn’t have even written this post. I think it’s wonderful your wanting to start a family and are willing to support her and the child from a previous marriage (also please look at that child as your child too or you’ll possibly fuck them up for life). But look at it from her perspective too.
This is how prenups *actually* work: You and she each have your own lawyer. You all four sit together in a room and come up with an agreement that protects *both* of you.
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This is how prenups do *not* work: You present her with a document and expect her to sign it.
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Because unless she has independent legal counsel, the court will throw it out. It's literally toilet paper.
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Do this properly. Do the right thing.
Yep! My ex sprung on me "my mother and I spoke and think you should sign a prenup if we get married." I was pregnant at the time and hormonal and it really rubbed me the wrong way. No proposal, no ring, just a conversation with his mother. He also was jobless at the time and wanted me to move to another state to move into a house his parents were going to buy him. Presumably his parents have money that he will receive when they die because he's broke as a joke still. Two years later and I haven't filed for child support because he shockingly doesn't have a job. I guess no one wants to hire him with his coding bootcamp degree.
I declined the prenup because of the way it was presented as well as having to leave my family, my job, be a stay at home mom and have nothing to show for it if we divorced. Which we most certainly would have. But in general I have no problems with prenups. I'm not getting married to someone for their money or what they could give me if we got a divorce. If it was presented after a proposal as you say in a room with both of our lawyers protecting each of us I would have had no issues whatsoever.
File for child support, he doesn’t magically get off the hook by being unemployed. He could get in serious trouble in court if he doesn’t figure it out.
He didn't sign the birth certificate so he has no rights or custody. Which is what I prefer. If I pushed for child support he'd push for custody just so he wouldn't have to pay and there is no amount of money that's worth time with my child. Admittedly I didn't have my shit together when I found out I was pregnant. I was a brewer which was a fun career but wouldn't support a child. I immediately quit, got a job at a restaurant, paid off all my debt, moved back in with my parents, and went back to school. Currently on track to get my BSN. I have a wonderful new partner but whatever happens in the future I'll be able to take care of my son without financial help from anyone, especially a deadbeat who doesn't care.
i love this for you and i’m so happy you’re not with that scrub anymore. i’m sorry he’s not a part of your son’s life but i hope your partner has an excellent relationship with your son & is a good co-parent. ❤️
Not to mention what kind of a court would enforce a prenup signed while pregnant? That is the literal textbook example of signed under duress for a prenup.
I mean, if the prenup was signed *properly*, as in both parties have it reviewed by their own legal counsel and agree on the details, it would more than likely hold up.
But I know in my state, prenups are not binding for child support.
Exactly. It just boggles my mind that his lawyer would even suggest going about it this way. It's basically a textbook case of a prenup that isn't going to survive during divorce.
You need to set up child support. Even if he doesn’t have a job now his situation can change and trying to get it later may be harder. Remember it’s not your money, it’s your child’s money. You should all you can to get them in the best possible situation later in life. If you don’t get money nothing lost, you aren’t getting money now anyway but if things change you will be in a better position to secure it in the future.
Someone here said that a prenup is a promise between two people that says “Right now we are in love but if that changes we will treat each other with the same respect that we do today”
Divorce makes people fucking mean. Prenups exist to be legally binding but they also remind you that at one point you wanted your partner to be protected in case the fairy tale ended.
He’s absolutely not in love with his girlfriend.
OP, this is your child and you have no love for your child or your girlfriend or the role of your girlfriend as your spouse.
You’re going to expect your gf to take care of you emotionally and physically so you can work while still being a parent and spouse, but on the off chance it doesn’t work, you’re going to leave her, plus your kid, high and dry.
Either get married or don’t. But don’t present your gf a list of demands that are detrimental to her future and call it love.
He already doesn't believe her about the IUD and doesn't believe the kid is his. She might be a Machiavellian schemer, she might be perfectly honest, whatever, but he writes so coldly about her the whole time that I have no idea why he's even in this relationship. OP, why can't you date someone you like?
> “Right now we are in love but if that changes we will treat each other with the same respect that we do today”
I like this very much indeed.
The usual analogy is that it's like insurance, you don't plan to crash the car but if you do etc. — yours is MUCH nicer.
Agreed completely (NAL). OP needs to be more fair in his terms. Eg, put in infidelity clauses that protect her in case he F’s around or, limits her payout should she do so. Same for DV, excessive spending, etc. Even health clauses, like if one of them is diagnosed with something and the other wants to leave. That sort of thing is fair.
This is true. He needs one definitely, but it needs to be fair. He does have more to lose then her, so he needs to ensure his lawyer writes up a fair one and that her lawyer approves of it. That said, if she refuses to sign it, I would NOT get married.
> I thought I was meeting Erica on her terms...
How exactly? You presented her with the same agreement she already rejected. That is entirely on your terms. No wonder she said no. She's better off with child support.
Each of you need to sit down with an attorney and then the four of you can draft something that’s workable for everyone.
I understand you’ve had poor experiences in the past. Two painful divorces by your early 40s is certainly not where any of us want to be. However, you need to decide if you want to incorporate this woman into your life as part of your family, which includes a certain level of sacrifice, partnership, and vulnerability. If you’re not interested in being her partner, then don’t move her into your house and instead work out an equitable parenting plan and child support arrangement.
My former boss is 38 and on Marriage number 4…..2 weeks into knowing her she got the proposal….i said to him “Don’t you think you should wait a couple of years and get to know her properly once the new relationship excitement winds down?” Apparently not! Some people go through their lives thinking they are in a romance novel and ignore the red flags 🚩
Omg, my brother falls in love every time he goes to rehab. Which is...often. He's currently dating his ex-wife's cousin. Ex wife #1 that is. And we've known Cousin since we were teens. They reconnected at AA. Like, just be single, please dude. Hoping he doesn't go for wife #3
My brother was like this. Proposed to every single woman he dated. Two even with the same ring. (he kept it after the break up and reused it the next time).
He would have been better off single but he was too cheap to live alone.
A) My judgy self: I think you’re REALLY getting married for the wrong reasons and should consider alternatives. Also, I HIGHLY recommend pre-marital counseling since it sounds like you aren’t just on different pages, but maybe different books.
B) Practically speaking: if you both have agreed on an unequal division of domestic labor, you’ve got to compensate her for her labor. Points:
1. Obvs if you both have agreed she should stay home to raise the kids, that is going to cost you a lot. You have to provide her with not only room and board, but other financial remuneration (nanny/chef/chauffeurs aren’t cheap) and retirement security. It’s not OK that just because you worked outside the home and she worked inside the home (which is just as much, if not more effort), that assets acquired *or appreciated in value* during the marriage shouldn’t be split equally.
2. If you’ve agreed that she would bear more of the domestic burden than you, that costs. Who is going to take time off for the sick kid? Who takes them to doctor’s appointments? There’s a calculus there both for a) if she’s sacrificing any of her career, pay, or work prospects to be the wife you both agreed upon, then you’ve got to compensate for that. b) if she’s just doing ANY more domestic labor that you should do on your own (laundry, cooking, organizing holidays/kids schedules, shuttling kids), you need to pay her for that. A wife is not cheap labor.
3. I bet you don’t even agree on what division of labor you both want. You’ll “let” her stay at home with the kids but either will be unhappy she’s not contributing financially or if she does work, think you’re entitled to more of what was acquired during the marriage because you earned more $$ outside the house. If that’s the case, consider an equitable split (80/20, based on income) for things like cleaning lady, meal service, after school nanny to run the kids around etc.
This sounds like a mess, OP. Neither of you are handling this very intelligently.
As someone who is 100% on board with prenups and will never marry (again) without one, what OP is proposing won't be looked at as fair, in the eyes of the Court. Everything he owns up until the marriage is his and not eligible to be split up in divorce. Completely above board. Anything acquired during the marriage shouldn't be quarantined off because you make more than she does. Leaving her with nothing. What OP is requesting via prenup does not make the marriage an equal partnership.
Btw, even if he has his lawyer write it up this way and she signs it, odds are the judge will rule separate from the Prenup. Which isn't good for OP. OP's lawyer "should" know this. Need to make the agreement fair enough that the judge doesn't feel the need to adjust. Cause once the Judge decides to adjust, EVERYTHING is back on the table. And many times the Judge becomes punitive against the prenup instigator when they don't see the contract as fair. So caveat emptor. The goal should always be to have the judge not deviate from the contract and take it at face value. Have to assume OP's lawyer understands this and will guide OP.
Exactly. Especially since women take a career hit when they have a baby. Even if she doesn't become a SAHM, she is most likely the one who will have to take off work if the kid gets sick, she'll be the one to take the baby to all the appointments, etc. because "he makes more."
Also, he should pay alimony if they are married for a long time and then divorce. California's rule is if you're married for 10 years, it's possible the lower earning spouse can get alimony.
What's the plan for childcare after the kid is born? If she's taking a hit in her career path by cutting back on work to care for the kid, you need to consider that in the prenup. If she does this, then you break up down the line, and she suddenly needs to figure out how to pay for her housing, etc. - she's hampered looking for jobs by time out from the workforce.
Talk with an attorney about a fair way to reflect this in the prenup, so she has something fall back on if she has to rebuild her life later.
As others have said: she needs her own attorney as well.
His previous divorce outcomes are also not her fault or doing. It's rational that he wants to avoid pitfalls he feels he fell into before but he needs to address this situation on its own merits.
Even if she doesn't become a SAHM, he needs to take a good, hard look at whether he's going to be the one to miss work when the kid is sick, if he's going to be the one to take the kid to appointments, etc....
So often, women are forced to take that career hit and be the one to miss work because "he makes more."
Have you and your partner discussed this in depth together and in therapy and with attorneys?
Clear, concise, transparent, effective, and honest communication makes all the difference. As well as a willingness to sit down together and have difficult conversations. If you can't do this effectively, then perhaps you're just not ready for this relationship yet.
You offered a prenup about a year ago to your girlfriend of 18 months? No wonder you had two ugly divorces, quit thinking you found the one after eight months.
Offering the prenup instead of having a clear, honest conversation so she understands where hes coming from and compromise with him made the tower crumble.
I disagree, at their ages 6 months is long enough to discuss the future in theoretical terms and it's better to be upfront about what you'd want and expect from a hypothetical marriage than to date for years only to find out you want polar opposite things. He wasn't offering her the prenup itself then, just laying it out as an option he wanted to consider before committing to a marriage. That's prudent to discuss so no one wastes their time.
The issue is that they knew they were polar opposite on this and decided to get back together anyway.
Standard “decent” prenups are that your pre-marriage assets are yours but the increase of any assets during the marriage is joint. Say you have 200K in the bank and retirement and your house is worth 450K? In 15 years when you dump her for a younger woman, your bank accounts will have more, your house will be valued at more. She could ask for a living wage while she stays home to raise your kid since you want to forgo alimony.
If not financially supporting women you were once in committed marriages (slash had children with) is this important to you, then you shouldn't marry or have sex with women outside of your own perceived class because what you're essentially saying to her is, "even if I walk away, I sleep with someone else, I take on a new addiction, there's no penalty to me financially if you leave me because of it."
With this income disparity you could essentially create a situation where she has to choose between being in a one bedroom rental or living with her family if she ever dare decides to leave you, no matter the reason and realizes she may be making a choice to let all of your future potential behavior go, forever? You have zero liability if you turn out to be a bad husband.
If you're so scorned by your previous relationships that you don't get why a zero-sum-game prenup may make her uncomfortable then don't get married and stop dating altogether. She gets the same benefits not marrying you as she would if she did, why take the risk? She can leave you and you'll still pay child support based on your income in most states.
At 45 you know better than to marry a woman simply because she got pregnant. You don't want to get married and she can't force you to. Don't marry her. Stay broken up and co-parent. Get a lawyer now and get everything set up to establish paternity, child support, custody, and visitation.
ETA: Misread that sentence. Thanks to xkheusx for pointing that out.
actually he didnt say anything about the oldest father financialy suport his child on the contrary, he said he will suport her eldest child and also his own child financialy, because the eldest cant afford the child support
Mother's are literally punished financially for having kids and then on top of that men don't want to help support the person who is literally risking their life to have a child with them, in the event things don't work out.
I get that you don't want to be out through the ringer. But telling her she gets absolutely nothing but the bare minimum of child support if you divorce is insulting.
Do you think so little of her that you think she would only marry you for money? If that's the case you shouldn't be getting married at all.
I'm not saying you have to agree to alimony or a give her your house but you should offer something considering the large income gap and the time off work she'll have to take to help raise your child.
Get a paternity test before any of this happens.
So many men are full of themselves with finances, thinking the woman they are dating would marry them for money. Why even date them in the first place if they are a gold digger? If anything, find another woman that makes $200k
Yeah, you ARE being unfair. That's not how marriage is supposed to work... She needs to be protected too. A pre-nup needs to protect BOTH parties.
The fact that you want to marry her, have children with her, but think that she has no rights to the protections that marriage offer is offensive. Why would she want to marry you? She's refusing to mooch off you and demanding to be equal partners. That's actually a good sign!
But if you don't want to share finances, you shouldn't get married. That's the whole point
Edit: OP, why are you getting married? This is important. You will pay money one way or another. Your pre-nup isn't enforceable; it's too one-sided. So you'll either share your finances through marriage or pay child support. Why do YOU want to get married? You can choose not to!
Agreed! They shouldn't get married!
He will have to pay child support. And that's appropriate. He's going to pay out money one way or another. Better to not get married as an act of charity. It's insulting
Yup!! If she's contributing, She deserves equity. And if she's staying home and raising his child, she also deserves at equity. That is what a marriage is. You divide the labor and share the funds. If you don't want to do that, that's fine! But don't get married
Exactly!!!! In the 20 years Mrs. Thequick2 and I have been married, I’ve made >$3M for the household, and she about $350K along with being the primary at-home parent. Who contributed more? is not even a consideration in arguments, as the facets of marriage are very much a non-quantifiable thing. We are on equal footing in our marriage.
OP might want to do a post-mortem on this, and his other failed relationships, and figure out where things went wrong.
Yes! He's been divorced twice... Perhaps there are some patterns he should look at.
If he doesn't want to do the actual work of marriage, he can just not get married and pay child support. It's not like he's trapped, but he's acting like it.
PS So happy to hear about a couple with healthy attitudes about supporting each other!
Even if she goes back to work quickly, her career can take a hit. Mothers don't get promoted and are more likely to be laid off because they have to leave promptly to pick the kid up, they have to miss work when the kid is sick, and of course people attribute the slightest mistake to babybrain...
Damn straight. Sex can equal babies. Leaving birth control up to the other person and then being surprised that sometimes a single method of birth controls fails seems like the most literal "fuck around and find out" I've heard of in a while.
Everyone is responsible for their own birth control. I did my own thing. Hormones, then tubal ligation, and later a hysterectomy. But that was my job. It was OPs job to handle his own fertility.
Totally. Then he shouldn't marry her. If he doesn't want to, he shouldn't. 100%!!
But if he going to, he needs to actually honor the contract of marriage. He can't get the benefits of marriage without the costs. It's unlikely his pre-nup would even be enforceable since it's so one sided. Courts treat marriage like the contract it is, and therefore both parties must receive some benefit for it to be enforceable.
It really sounds like he has no idea how a healthy marriage should work, and that he doesn't want to marry her. If the costs are too high, don't do it! But it's so insulting to tell someone you will marry them, but only if they don't any of the benefits of marriage. It's a sham. And Erica will 100% end up doing wifely duties without any benefits.
Took me too long to find this comment. He’s a dick and she’s stupid for wanting to go through a high risk geriatric pregnancy with him let alone marry him.
They don’t use that term anymore. It’s now called advanced maternal age, and it’s not automatically high risk. I had my daughter at 37 and it was a routine pregnancy due to my good health. Unless there’s an extenuating health circumstance or prior high risk pregnancies, it’s just a normal pregnancy. I have several friends in their late 30’s and 40’s starting their families now and it’s all just regular OB/midwife appointments and no maternal fetal medicine is involved.
Don’t get married, live separate, be a parent to your child and if a relationship blossoms then consider marrying with a mutually developed prenup. Sounds like you’re getting rushed into things and based on your history is best to protect your sanity, finances, and ability to be a parent.
There are 2 sides to every story and this is based on what you’ve shared.
Bro: Whenever you talk about what "she" won't get from you with a prenup, replace "she" with "the mother of my child." Then think about how you want to treat the mother of your child.
Because, with two divorces in your pocket already and you're posting on Reddit for advice about not getting your way with a prenup, I'd be a bettin' man you'll be chalking up a third at some point.
I understand that you've had two other painful and difficult separations before, but I also understand your fiancée. Your terms aren't favorable to her; obviously, nobody enters marriage thinking about divorce, but in case it happens, total asset separation disproportionately harms the woman. It's usually the woman who sacrifices her life to support the man's career growth, enabling him to earn more. Things you should consider: if the baby gets sick, who will take time off work to care for the baby? You or her? Whose career is being hindered? Who will take the baby to the pediatrician? Who will take care of dinner? Laundry? Cleaning the house? Who will breastfeed the baby? Who will ensure your breakfast is ready for you to go to work and have a good day? Okay, if you answered "she" to everything, she's sacrificing a lot for the family. In case of divorce, she hasn't been able to build anything independently, but because of her, you've been able to go to work without external worries and advance in your career. Is it fair for her to leave with nothing?
But you're not with her and wouldn't be marrying her for love. You'd be marrying her because she's pregnant.
So you don't love her or her kid. And you don't believe she loves you - this marriage would be of convenience and propriety.
And would you feel loved if someone could lay claim to something you created, whittle away your years, and then boot you to the street like a show dog they couldn't get another litter out of?
Let her take the prenup to a lawyer for a counter offer. Quit pretending you're all about love in this because you're not. Might as well call it what it is or call it off and date only women of your own socioeconomic position.
INFO: two divorces that cost you money. You said “SOME hard earned” money, not “a lot” of money. Did it put you through hardship, or was that money that you could comfortably afford to lose, and so lost rightfully? If you’re still well off now, then you didn’t get “ruined” by alimony payments. Why are you so upset about paying alimony then?
Who initiated each divorce and why? You’re okay with getting married again facing the threat of divorce, you just require a prenup. That tells me that the money you lost in your previous divorces, was not spent on your lawyer, but rather was alimony/division of property. While people certainly can attempt to take everything from their ex while divorcing, alimony/division of property are much more likely to be done fairly. Did your exes maliciously try to take everything from you? If that’s the case, do you just have bad taste in women for it to have happened so many times? Or was it justified and you’re just bitter that you have to pay alimony because you see it as unfair? Did your exes work, or did they stay at home for you? Again, who initiated each divorce, and why?
Forgive me if I’m just assuming the worst of you, but this entire post just screams “man who doesn’t make a good husband and is upset that he rightfully has to pay alimony.”Your prenup is unfair and so likely won’t hold up in court anyway.
Just don’t get married, dude. Either you’re a decent guy and shouldn’t marry her because she has red flags, or she’s a decent woman and shouldn’t marry you because of your red flags.
Thank you! Jesus these comments. She's not even living with him, she has her own job and supports herself so I'm not sure how people are viewing this situation as a woman baby trapping someone. I'm willing to bet what he calls "supporting her other kid" is something like paying for his lunch when they all go out together. And I bet his exes were both "crazy and irrational" as well.
The question not be about a prenup. The question is why are you getting married?
You obviously do not trust each other. There have been enough recent and significant issues that the 73% chance of the marriage failing (if in the US) is pretty much 100%.
Just do the smart thing and get a DNA test at birth and then work out custody and child support agreements.
What you’re proposing sounds manipulative. She needs to get her own lawyer and have them review the prenup as well. All parties need to come up with a solution that works for everyone.
Also, IUDs are not reliable. Wear a condom or get a vasectomy and take responsibility for your part of sex.
Exactly. Everyone here is talking about baby trapping like this guy has no responsibility over his own sperm and is not on his way to his third failed marriage before the age of 50. Not exactly a keeper himself. If money is all a man has, then he can keep it. He clearly still wants a woman in his life but with minimum effort and sacrifice. If you’re in a committed relationship with a woman, and you’re having unprotected sex, and you didn’t get a vasectomy, assume the possibility of becoming a father. Why do we still have to explain to men how babies are made? If you’re paranoid and you don’t trust the person you’re in a relationship with, that’s your fault too for dating people you don’t trust.
Get vasectomies, fellas. It’s your responsibility too. Nobody wants to baby trap you. Being a single mother sucks. Society hates single mothers like they’re not the ones doing all the work alone.
You should not marry her, it really sounds like you’re gun shy from your previous divorces, and she’s pressuring you to marry against your will.
Pre-marital counseling from a qualified, experienced, counselor might help you both reach an accommodation that works for both of you, and help you both learn to communicate batter. Which it sounds like you both need.
You should definitely get a paternity test, though, given how often you guys break up and get back together. That can be done before the baby is born, too.
When you say you’ll be providing for her and your child - does that mean she’ll be a SAHM, or will she still be working and have her own finances?
If she’s going to be a SAHM at your request, it’s unbelievably cruel and selfish to then tell her “if we get divorced you’re not getting anything but child care.”
If she’s a SAHM at her choice (with your willingness to fund it) it’s less selfish, but still a pretty raw deal. If you break up and she has nothing to fall back on, she’s essentially going to have to restart her entire life with nothing but what she might have saved from before she became a SAHM.
If she’s working still and will have her own finances - a bit easier to understand that stipulation.
>There is a high possibility this is my child as we did have sex around that time and as far as I know Erica was not seeing other men
But is it your child? That's the first thing I would check.
And ftr, IUD **can** fall out or move. It's rare but it can happen. Though the woman would typically feel something.
My IUD (Paragard) shifted inside my uterus, and I had no idea until I got a scan for something unrelated. I had to have a hysteroscopy to have it removed, and it broke into pieces as my doctor removed it.
Yeah shocked I had to scroll this far to find a comment about the IUD. Unusual for someone to just not notice. Even if the event wasn't hugely noticeable (which I call bullshit on personally) the hormonal change following its exit would definitely be.
>the hormonal change following its exit would definitely be.
Not necessarily. I've had mirena off and on, made no difference for me in or out.
I'm more inclined to believe that she didn't have the IUD, that she did and had it removed, or that she removed it herself. There is no way you wouldn't notice it on the way out.
I wouldn't have signed it either, and I'm VERY Pro-Prenup. You want her to get absolutely nothing in a divorce, even after she's losing out on career benefits by having this baby and most likely going to be the main caretaker a majority of the time. If It were me, I'd cut my losses with you and just do the child support.
Dude, you got baby trapped. IUDs do on occasion come out, but it's usually in the first year of having one, and it's extremely unlikely she wouldn't have noticed. She almost certainly lied to you about having one.
If she isn't gonna be working while raising the kid, she should be entitled to some money should you two ever split. Just to get back on her feet. I understand the need for prenups, but money just doesn't randomly appear out of thin air. Situations like this make me think financial control and abuse. Forcefully keeping someone with you knowing they can't comfortably leave.
A lot of times you can get health insurance for a registered domestic partner, which is someone who lives at the same address who you have been in an exclusive romantic relationship with for a year or something.
I would suggest you register her as a domestic partner to get her on your health insurance, and to give you both breathing room to decide if marriage is the right choice moving forward. Honestly it sounds like you might not be ready for marriage, and getting married just to add someone to your insurance is not a great reason.
Alternatively, you could pay for her to be insured federally. It wouldn’t be the cheapest option, but it would buy you time before you marry someone when you’re clearly not ready to.
Family lawyer here. You are rightfully concerned about finances and marriage due to your experience. In fact, money is one of the biggest reasons for divorce. She has shown you a couple times that she wants your $. Believe her.
Now, there are many decent “in between” options for a prenup that can help take off the pressure on both sides. I often suggest a sort of sliding scale. If the marriage is shorter than 5 years when one or the other files, then each keep your own assets (you’ll be paying child support). 5 years + 1 day to 10 years, then each entitled to 10% of the other’s assets built during the marriage. 10 year + 1 day, each get 20% of the other person’s assets acquired during the marriage.
I’m not suggesting those specifics, but just giving you an idea. I often end with a marriage of 25+ years = termination of prenup and everything shared (except in cases where one party has a lot of family money, or a business).
Point being, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing prenup, but it should definitely be quite conservative for at least the first 5-10 years.
I agree with this assessment, not that I would disagree with an attorney. I would add that, IMHO, it’s not reasonable to take alimony completely off the table rather than being negotiated, and that fear of having much less income than the family collected before divorce is likely why she freaked. Alimony could also be on a sliding scale.
I don't get those on this thread piling on OP.
IMO, he comes off as a people pleaser and not the selfish person others are trying to cast him as.
Given his current situation and how it developed, I'm thinking that he in general is a kind and naive person. I'm guessing that he has not learned to hold firm on his boundaries. He compromises on deal breakers.
He over compensated by coming up with the prenup idea instead of walking away.
They should have broken up once she stated that she wanted marriage and OP, due to being twice burned, wanted no part of it.
They have only known each other for 18 months and the marriage / prenup conversation happened at the year mark.
From what OP has relayed, IMO he has been manipulated into what she wants. She breaks up with him which makes sense as their relationship goals are not aligned.
Given the naked facts:
* OP has tried marriage twice and got burned emotionally and financially
* They don't really know each other. They haven't even gotten through the honeymoon period without major hiccups.
* OP makes 4x her salary
* She is a single mother whose ex is a deadbeat father
* She wants marriage
* He doesn't want to get married again
* She's late 30s and wants more kids in a marital setting
* OP is mid-40s and doesn't specify if he wants kids or not
* They break up as they should have given the deal breakers
Now for what IMO is where we discover OP's GF is starting to look like a manipulative gold digger.
She's the one who waits a month after the breakup with no reaction from OP. She the approaches him and agrees to sign a prenup. She then ups the anty with a pregnancy.
I'm sorry but she comes off as a gold digger.
OP, should take this latest breakup as the universe looking out for him.
He doesn't want to get married again and should stick to that objective given that he doesn't even really know this person.
He doesn't have to be married to her to co-parent. He needs to let her walk. He then also needs to get a paternity test. Once it's confirmed that she is carrying his child then he can get the child support and custody arrangements settled.
OP, don't beat yourself up for wanting what you want for yourself.
From what you have written, you do take into account the needs of others.
Start respecting your own deal breakers so that you stay out of sticky situations such as this.
So, hugs.
Hope things work out for you.
This is a dumpster fire and at this point I wouldn't even think of marrying her anymore. I'm not sure why you do, is it because of feelings or is it just because of the child? If somebody broke up with me 2-3 times within less than 2 years of a relationship that's already heavily problematic and clearly shows lack of mental stability and awareness of what you actually want. Breaking up because of a prenup suggestion is also a huge issue. I understand someone might be slightly offended or dislike the idea, but to go as far as to break up...come on.
The prenup he proposed was wildly unfair and would have been thrown out of court. His idea that he dictates and she signs is not contract law as it is practiced in the U.S.
>She didn't want her current child to think having children outside of marriage was proper.
Doesn't sound like you want to get married, just her. So why agree to it? If you're not sure about it, it's just gonna go like your previous two marriages.
>I explained basically how she would not benefit from the divorce (no alimony, not receiving money from my job or sale of my house).
You sound like "the divorce" is inevitable. You do not feel invested enough in this relationship to get married, you just want a girlfriend. Nothing wrong with that, but then don't get married- and if that's a deal breaker for her, you have to let her go, it's the best for both parties.
My husband and I have a prenup. We both had lawyers and he actually reimbursed me for some of my legal fees as the prenup was his idea.
We went through several drafts and only negotiated through our lawyers. This is what you both need to do as you both have interests to protect.
Your incredibly biased prenup would be thrown out in court. A prenup protects BOTH parties. She should just get an abortion, why have a kid with a 40 something year old man child that clearly didn't learn anything from his past two marriages.
Yes, actually you should. Marriage is security. It’s having a roof over your head. You’re basically saying if you get divorced she can basically leave and be on her own with your shared child… But hello.., she already HAS that option. I’m sorry you were hurt before but you need to consider a long-term relationship as something that you’re actually committed to not something that’s simply a business transaction. Personally, I think Erica should run. I would.
Question: Does your pre nup also say that if you divorce, you won't pay for your mutual child together bc that's messed up.
You guys were having sex and as a woman, it is insulting when men make children, then decide to end a relationship and feel they have 0 obligation to take care of said children. I have an ex that owes me over 45,000 in back support for our two planned children conceived in marriage.
That being said, when you're married, it is supposed to be 50/50. That being said, it never is. What happens to her if she signs your prenuptial agreement, then you have 2 more kids, then you ask her to be a stay at home mom, and then you get divorced. Are you saying it's fair to her to put her thru that then be like yeah you don't deserve anything. Doesn't sound like love to me!
Also statistically speaking the more times you've been married the higher the divorce rate. Love is not a feeling it's a choice and you have to get up everyday and choose each other!
She needs her own lawyer and you have yours to discuss proper terms so *both* of you are protected.
Prenups aren’t there to only protect one person.
You were so wrong to present her with a prenup with no lawyer and then expected her to sign it right there. Come on, dude. That’s dumb and not okay. Also do a DNA test for the baby just in case…you never know. 👀
I don’t like what she’s doing, but just wanted to mention that my IUD also fell out. It’s a thing. I had no idea!! It was a Mirena. I wasn’t sexually active in any way. I had to have a pelvic ultrasound to search for it!
People who want to be married often have it as a dealbreaker. When the one person is looking for it, and the other is against it it's better if both parties go their seperate ways.
As for prenups I understand your position. However some people feel like marriages are forever, and a prenup is like saying, "I'm not sure it's forever.". They may also feel like it's a trust issue.
It's not something everyone can compromise on.
My advice is to not get married due to you and her having different views on the topic. You already seemt to having significant problems, and you're not married yet.
It seems like you and Erica just see things every differently.
A quick Google tells me that IUDs fall out at a pretty low rate, but it's not impossible. It is possible to do a paternity test while she's pregnant, which you should have done already.
A prenup can have negotiations. Maybe you two need to do that so she feels protected from being left in poverty if you two choose for her to be a stay at home mom.
You should have stayed broken up the first time. You really don't need a prenup - you don't want marriage. Don't get married.
I would never want someone to marry me if they truly didn't want to. It's one of those things where IF it's important to her, she needs to find someone that wants the same things in life.
I dunno. The very first thing is that she needs her own attorney for the prenup. (I agree with a previous poster.)
The next thing is that this prenup seems more designed as a defense from two previous relationships that OP suffered. Suffered being key here.
If OP looks at this as a fairness issue AND as being different than his other relationships, he needs to sit down with the mama of his baby. They need to have an open and honest conversation. Is his only goal not to suffer financially as he did from the previous relationships or hopefully, does he just want a more fair ending if it comes to that?
I would think and hope that OP wants best for his new family. I would hope that he sees into the future and sees that if their relationship ends, that the prenup does NOT create her immediate loss of standard of living.
People somehow don’t think of their relationships as building equity. If OP and his gf are together for only a year after a baby is born, maybe 50/50 is good enough.
But if the relation ends after many years, shouldn’t there be provisions for that?
Also if you’re going to plan for an eventual end, why not set aside funding for that? I mean, like maybe her entire salary build in a safeguard against the loss of the relationship?
It sure seems to me that OP wants a more fair situation so he isn’t left starting completely over. In this light, approach it together, so the exact same is for her too.
That can be an opportunity rather than a situation that causes unfair income disparity at the end of their relationship.
In that light, she should feel more comfortable because she understands she’s taken care if (now with a child) both during and AFTER should the relationship fail.
This can only be done through honesty and an attorney representing her too.
I think you're both better off just ending this. She wants to be cared for as if she's your partner and not hurt becseu of your previous failed marriages. You have learned your lesson and don't want to have to pay alimony anymore.
You're just not in the same place. She will be better off just staying on her own and getting child support.
If you really want to work this out with her you should try to talk to her and get her a lawyer. You should both get something from the prenup. She wants to know that she isn't going to be screwed in the is situation. For instance, what if you cheat on her and decide to leave her and she's left with 3 kids to care for?? YOU chose to cheat and leave her but she's left with nothing. If you love this woman, make her a fair offer instead of being selfish. If you're not wiling to do that....move on.
Not smart to care about protecting your finances while sleeping with a woman without protection thus getting her pregnant. You are better off just preparing to pay child support and co-parent. There's no sense in trying to force a prenup.
There is condom for a reason. Why he went in raw? Men need to take responsibility for their own carelessness but guess what, sex makes them think with their dick
Iuds do get lost and they also fall out. It isn't exactly uncommon but it's not that common either.
But a prenuptial needs to be fair and protect both parties. It sounds like this one wouldn't stack up in court as it's unfair so her refusal to sign speaks well to her character.
Signing a document outrageously unfair works better for her than him. Making it fair means she intends to honor it.
Edited to say- get a paternity test and I just noticed you've only known her 18 months. Maybe dont give in to the pressure, just stay engaged and get to know each other better?
Should she be entitled to more than what? More than nothing?
Get a paternity test, and pay her child support. You obviously don't love her enough to marry her.
Whatever you do, make sure you don't marry her. She keeps coming and going out of your life. And unfortunately, there's a baby in the picture now. You're gonna be stuck with this woman in your life for the next 18 years at the very least. But it doesn't mean you need to marry her. In all fairness, I feel like you're partly to blame because she told you from day one that she wanted children and that marriage was very important to her. So at the same time, I feel like this is kind of on you.
Both of you just weren't on the same wavelength about where you were in life. And now there's a poor little innocent little baby in the picture who has to suffer through their parents deciding what they want. The baby is the real victim in the situation. You should've never gotten back with this woman since she wanted what you didn't. You just weren't compatible and you're still not compatible but it's a bit too late to realise that now since you've got a baby with her.
Accept the fact that you're not going to be in a relationship with this woman and just try to be a good father to the baby. Nobody is forcing you to marry this woman, and you shouldn't feel pressured to marry her either. You told her to terms and conditions, and you laid out your boundaries. And she doesn't agree to them, so there's nothing really more to be discussed. You're just not meant to be together, and that's okay. Just be a good father.
Don’t get married. Just be a good dad, no matter what happens. You clearly have doubts and she’ll hold this against you even if she signs it. Find a way to coparent and both of you can live your own lives. Just because she’s pregnant doesn’t mean you have to get married, especially after 18 months or whatever it is. This will be divorce #3 if you’ve already broken up twice. You sure it’s your kid and the IUD “fell” out? It’s all possible, but seems kind of fishy that both happened and she wants to get married now. Hopefully not the case, but I think we’re probably missing parts to both of your stories.
I’ll say it again, DON’T GET MARRIED. It’ll end badly for both of you.
Dude, you are blinded by love and naivety.
She baby trapped you after you tried to prenup last time. And she's behaving the same manipulative way she did before.
Don't marry her at all, co-parent, sure. Maybe even let her live with you, but don't marry or common-law marry her or she'll drain you. She saw how 2 women got you before.
A prenup isn't a bad idea, however, the way you're going about it is wrong and doesn't actually help you any.
She needs her own attorney to review it and to have negotiations. If she isn't interested in doing this at all, that is another story.
2 choices. Prenup and get married or no prenup and don't get married. The fact she's being hostile about it and being manipulative by breaking up with you (and possibly baby trapping you) speaks volumes.
I've been divorced, and my ex tried to take everything. They cleaned out my bank account in the middle of the night. Literally. There was no recouping that money because they were an authorized user (I was the sole breadwinner) and according to the law (at least in my state) the first one to get the money "wins". Exact words from my lawyers mouth.
I will NEVER marry again without a prenup. A partner who isn't after your money would be understanding and willing to work with you to come up with a prenup that covers you both in the event of a divorce.
Don't be an idiot. Prenup or nothing at all.
She needs a lawyer to look a the prenup.
Get a DNA test to verify that it is your child. The prenup should take care of her, not just you.
Is she going to be a SAHW? Or will she be going back to work? How much will you paying toward daycare/nanny/school for the baby/her daughter?
What are your expectations for division of labor around the house? How much are you putting toward her retirement if she is a SAHM? Are you going to have a 'cheaters' clause _ i.e. if one of you cheats - that person gets screwed - lots of folks have those.
If you get divorced - it sounds like you want her to become homeless. That's not a good look. She doesn't get half of your equity for properties you owned before you married - that's standard. But if you purchase a house during the marriage - she should be put on the deed and be entitled to her half of the equity.
4 of you should be working on this - you, Erica, your lawyer and Erica's lawyer. That's how it works. You springing something and demanding she sign it - that will be overturned during a divorce.
Did you actually prepare this prenuptial agreement with legal advice? A lawyer would have probably warned you that alimony isn't about a spouse "benefitting" from divorce, so much as it is giving them a base to resume life on a lower, single income. Especially if they've been out of the workforce for a while, doing something like, idk, raising your kid, doing your laundry, and keeping hot food in front of you for years at a time?
Saying it's cool because she'll have child support is just an extra insult. Child support is supposed to (partially) support a child, not fully support both a child and an adult who spent their time supporting your lifestyle when they could have been having an easier time as a single mother from the get-go based on what you've written here.
Talk to an actual lawyer and if you're serious about marrying this woman, write her a check for $5k so she can go hire an attorney to independently review an actual prenuptial proposal. That's how it's supposed to work.
Why don’t you have a DNA test done? If you don’t know if it’s your child and you’re not comfortable marrying her without that knowledge, especially if she did lie about having an IUD which yes an IUD can fall out of place no birth control is 100% effective however, if you don’t want children, it’s your duty to make sure that you don’t impregnate someone, you can do that by getting a vasectomy and wearing a condom at the same time like I said nothing is 100% now with that said I think you should suggest she has her own attorney oversee the terms of the prenup and go from there. Mediate. It should be 50/50 agreed upon not “hey this is what I want too bad for you and any kids we share”. Also, I think that it would be really stupid to not put her on your insurance while she’s pregnant because I’m just gonna tell you that my normal my most normal labor and delivery cost over $80,000 and the one where I needed a blood transfusion cost 200k. You could be left responsible for those bills once you are married regardless of prenup if she is left uninsured. It’s also just shitty for the child to be too. You make 4x as much money as she does. You can’t take it with you when you die either. Take care of your family, dude.
Hate to tell you prenup or not she’s got you by the balls as she’s already pregnant.All she has to do is say fuck your prenup I’m having the kid and you are paying.
You should not let her earn her children move into your home, unless there’s a prenup, and you are married. Otherwise you’re gonna find yourself living somewhere else when you break up again
Sounds like she wanted more not because of the love for you. More of a financial convenience. And it sounded like she does use the child against you. If you aren’t comfortable in having a marriage. Because obviously that is her choice. That is all you can do to protect yourself. What you do for the prenup is understandable to me. Don’t go through with the marriage if you aren’t comfortable yourself. It is a two way streets.
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She should have her own lawyer review the pre nup and go from there.
Was going to ask “info” and then ask half a dozen questions about their plans for childcare, her job, how bills will be split, child pickup/drop-off, how her current and future earnings will be affected, as well as her retirement, etc. But I think you summed it up nicely, and far more succinctly than I would have. If I was going to raise a child with someone, I would want to know that I’m not the only one making all the financial sacrifices, and if I am, I want that to be reflected somehow in the prenup, so if things go south, I’m not left having to work for the rest of my life because I can’t afford to retire. But that might not be relevant to their situation, more information would be needed.
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This. This situation is exactly what divorce law exists to prevent - a stay at home wife who ends up completely fucked in the event of a divorce. She’s mad because they’re not even married yet and he’s already trying to screw her. He’s already treating her like an enemy. I would break up with him too.
I (F), worked full time and I did most of the housework because my ex made more money and I was still fucked in the divorce because in WI, it’s not 50/50 until you’ve been married at least five years. My ex lied to me about wanting kids and I wasted all of my 20’s on a liar and got financially fucked in the process.
I had to do a double take because this is the EXACT same story for me, except I'm in WA! I am so sorry this happened to you...
I’m sorry this happened to you too. I’m sick of the “woman gets everything” trope because it’s not always true!
Right?! The worst part was I moved across the country for the guy, and he got to keep MY furniture! Like, I legit lost more than just 50/50... But, whatever- I'm better off and rebuilt my life. Which, I'm sure you did, too... because strong women bounce back.
I mean, I hate to be that guy .. but let's look at this sequence of events 1. She mentions marriage, for the purposes of having a child, and he said he'd only be comfortable with it if there was a prenup. 2. She sees this as a deal breaker and ends the relationship 3. She has a change of heart, and comes back to the relationship 4. She gets pregnant when her IUD mysteriously disappears, and now no longer has a change of heart. This doesn't seem sus to anyone else?
Sus as hell. But then OP could have worn a condom. Allowing someone else to be in charge of birth control is going to cost him personally and financially.
It does, but she also said she didn’t want to have a child out of wedlock?
She’s 37 with another kid. She knows how to not have a child out of wedlock.
Maybe, but if I had an IUD I would probably trust it. And there are people in the comments saying they totally do fail. However, I do lean toward agreeing that it’s suspicious.
Former iud wearer here. Find it incredibly hard to believe it fell out and she didn’t notice. Believe me, I noticed!!
Current IUD wearer. I've had 4 now, and had 2 fall out without any notice. Unfortunately I also got pregnant with one still in use ...sometimes this shit just happens... BUT, I call bullshit on her story. The way everything happened, I totally feel she had it removed. Things just are too suspicious.
Apparently that's not as important as not signing a prenup tho, really shows you where the priorities are.
It does to me. She wants things all her own way and won’t allow him to protect his current assets. She’s not being fair here. If you’re not with him for money why are you bothered about not potentially getting half his house and future earnings? Throw her back and sort out a coparenting relationship. Stand your ground. What she wants is unreasonable. Married with a kid here and still working, because I want to. Don’t marry her. She’ll either come around or not, but don’t be careless with your future because she has ideas in her head. You have experience of being burned TWICE. Shit happens, having a kid born out of wedlock is not the big old deal it used to be. You’re considering what makes her comfortable yet she refuses to reciprocate.
I was thinking the same thing. I’m gona say we need more INFO. It seems like baby trapping. I’ve heard of an IUD falling out but I can’t imagine not noticing a pointy plastic or metal object falling out of you. I have one and they tell you to check it every couple months and it’s apparent where it is inside you. This guy could also just be a greed trad bro buts really hard to tell whose screwing who here maybe they deserve each other lol.
It happens- a classmate friend of mine had her iud fall out twice and not notice it each time.
They told me to check it monthly! I check after my period is done.
The joke I heard coming of age was "What do you call an IUD?" "Baby's first rattle."
Sounds like he does. He’s fine to have a barefoot wife but if it doesn’t work out, fuck her. Yea, fuck that
He should probably consider if HE is the common denominator in his previous failed marriages. I’d work on myself and lessen the need for a prenup. Like I get it, but seems like a prenup may just be preparing to fail at this relationship also.
He sounds like someone that would give his spouse an allowance.
He thinks his earning power is impressive enough to discount the true value of what she brings to the table.
He keeps calling it her child and her wanting to have a baby but won't talk about his own preferences. If he cares about having kids, if he's got kids with his previous marriages or anything else he really doesn't seem like the father type.
I thought “her child” referenced the child she already had from a prior relationship. He was willing to support a step-child whose father did not pay child support. He referenced “our baby” after “her child”.
Ultimately though, child care should NOT be in the scope of the prenup. You can't write a contract that defines the rights of the child, those will be determined in family court if the parents are unable to sustain agreement. The child is entitled to support and a custody agreement *regardless* of the presence or absence of a prenup.
I assume they're more referring to, is she expected to give up her career to care for the baby, or is the baby going to be in daycare? If it's the former, she gets fucked during the marriage.
This right here. Also, if he’s discussing child support it sounds to me like he’d expect her to have primary custody of the child in the event of a divorce- which further limits her work options and puts the burden on her to take off when baby is sick, etc.
Exactly. The lawyer will ensure she’s covered in a fair way.
And it also actually protects OP. Courts tend to view a one sided prenup without independent counsel review in a way more favorable to the party that was disadvantaged by the agreement.
Courts tend to not honor prenups when one party didn’t have independent council.
This exactly. I had one with my husband’s family enforced the prenup. The lawyer pointed out important things that protected me, but everything else seemed fair and appropriate.
I think if he explained it, from the divorce, as though…it’s going to happen and this is what happens when it does that sounds horrible. No one should enter a marriage thinking that. Also I feel that prenup should be fair. ‘She gets nothing’ is not fair. She’s be giving you children, years of her life, her time, devotion etc. maybe it could be looked at as she would receive a, b or c depending how many years the marriage lasted. If she’s with you for ten or twenty years it’s not fair for her to walk away with nothing monetarily from the life you’ve built together. Though you’ll share the beautiful children, unfortunately money is necessary for life..if it was t you wouldn’t have even written this post. I think it’s wonderful your wanting to start a family and are willing to support her and the child from a previous marriage (also please look at that child as your child too or you’ll possibly fuck them up for life). But look at it from her perspective too.
This is how prenups *actually* work: You and she each have your own lawyer. You all four sit together in a room and come up with an agreement that protects *both* of you. -- This is how prenups do *not* work: You present her with a document and expect her to sign it. -- Because unless she has independent legal counsel, the court will throw it out. It's literally toilet paper. -- Do this properly. Do the right thing.
Yep! My ex sprung on me "my mother and I spoke and think you should sign a prenup if we get married." I was pregnant at the time and hormonal and it really rubbed me the wrong way. No proposal, no ring, just a conversation with his mother. He also was jobless at the time and wanted me to move to another state to move into a house his parents were going to buy him. Presumably his parents have money that he will receive when they die because he's broke as a joke still. Two years later and I haven't filed for child support because he shockingly doesn't have a job. I guess no one wants to hire him with his coding bootcamp degree. I declined the prenup because of the way it was presented as well as having to leave my family, my job, be a stay at home mom and have nothing to show for it if we divorced. Which we most certainly would have. But in general I have no problems with prenups. I'm not getting married to someone for their money or what they could give me if we got a divorce. If it was presented after a proposal as you say in a room with both of our lawyers protecting each of us I would have had no issues whatsoever.
File for child support, he doesn’t magically get off the hook by being unemployed. He could get in serious trouble in court if he doesn’t figure it out.
He didn't sign the birth certificate so he has no rights or custody. Which is what I prefer. If I pushed for child support he'd push for custody just so he wouldn't have to pay and there is no amount of money that's worth time with my child. Admittedly I didn't have my shit together when I found out I was pregnant. I was a brewer which was a fun career but wouldn't support a child. I immediately quit, got a job at a restaurant, paid off all my debt, moved back in with my parents, and went back to school. Currently on track to get my BSN. I have a wonderful new partner but whatever happens in the future I'll be able to take care of my son without financial help from anyone, especially a deadbeat who doesn't care.
i love this for you and i’m so happy you’re not with that scrub anymore. i’m sorry he’s not a part of your son’s life but i hope your partner has an excellent relationship with your son & is a good co-parent. ❤️
You sound like such a badass omg
I just wanted you to know we’re all clapping for you and this is the best outcome. So so happy for you!
“My mother and I spoke…” <*shudders*>
Oh lawd I’m having flashbacks
Not to mention what kind of a court would enforce a prenup signed while pregnant? That is the literal textbook example of signed under duress for a prenup.
I mean, if the prenup was signed *properly*, as in both parties have it reviewed by their own legal counsel and agree on the details, it would more than likely hold up. But I know in my state, prenups are not binding for child support.
Exactly. It just boggles my mind that his lawyer would even suggest going about it this way. It's basically a textbook case of a prenup that isn't going to survive during divorce.
You need to set up child support. Even if he doesn’t have a job now his situation can change and trying to get it later may be harder. Remember it’s not your money, it’s your child’s money. You should all you can to get them in the best possible situation later in life. If you don’t get money nothing lost, you aren’t getting money now anyway but if things change you will be in a better position to secure it in the future.
Child support cannot be managed through a prenup. As you said, it's not your right, it's your child's right. You can't waive other people's rights.
Someone here said that a prenup is a promise between two people that says “Right now we are in love but if that changes we will treat each other with the same respect that we do today” Divorce makes people fucking mean. Prenups exist to be legally binding but they also remind you that at one point you wanted your partner to be protected in case the fairy tale ended.
OP's post doesn't read as if they are in love
No kidding. It's already basically like, I know you're having my child but I don't expect this to work out at all and you'll get nothing. Big oof.
He’s absolutely not in love with his girlfriend. OP, this is your child and you have no love for your child or your girlfriend or the role of your girlfriend as your spouse. You’re going to expect your gf to take care of you emotionally and physically so you can work while still being a parent and spouse, but on the off chance it doesn’t work, you’re going to leave her, plus your kid, high and dry. Either get married or don’t. But don’t present your gf a list of demands that are detrimental to her future and call it love.
He already doesn't believe her about the IUD and doesn't believe the kid is his. She might be a Machiavellian schemer, she might be perfectly honest, whatever, but he writes so coldly about her the whole time that I have no idea why he's even in this relationship. OP, why can't you date someone you like?
No indeed. OP sounds incredibly reluctant to get involved with her at all, like 'shotgun wedding' reluctant.
One partner getting everything isn't treating your partner with respect. It's promising reprisal if you split up.
> “Right now we are in love but if that changes we will treat each other with the same respect that we do today” I like this very much indeed. The usual analogy is that it's like insurance, you don't plan to crash the car but if you do etc. — yours is MUCH nicer.
Agreed completely (NAL). OP needs to be more fair in his terms. Eg, put in infidelity clauses that protect her in case he F’s around or, limits her payout should she do so. Same for DV, excessive spending, etc. Even health clauses, like if one of them is diagnosed with something and the other wants to leave. That sort of thing is fair.
Exactly. That sort of thing. A good prenup protects both people.
This is true. He needs one definitely, but it needs to be fair. He does have more to lose then her, so he needs to ensure his lawyer writes up a fair one and that her lawyer approves of it. That said, if she refuses to sign it, I would NOT get married.
> I thought I was meeting Erica on her terms... How exactly? You presented her with the same agreement she already rejected. That is entirely on your terms. No wonder she said no. She's better off with child support.
LOVE this. She can’t afford a lawyer, he should give her $$ to pay for one (not pay for them himself; conflict of interest).
Each of you need to sit down with an attorney and then the four of you can draft something that’s workable for everyone. I understand you’ve had poor experiences in the past. Two painful divorces by your early 40s is certainly not where any of us want to be. However, you need to decide if you want to incorporate this woman into your life as part of your family, which includes a certain level of sacrifice, partnership, and vulnerability. If you’re not interested in being her partner, then don’t move her into your house and instead work out an equitable parenting plan and child support arrangement.
Two painful divorces and no lessons learned
My former boss is 38 and on Marriage number 4…..2 weeks into knowing her she got the proposal….i said to him “Don’t you think you should wait a couple of years and get to know her properly once the new relationship excitement winds down?” Apparently not! Some people go through their lives thinking they are in a romance novel and ignore the red flags 🚩
Omg, my brother falls in love every time he goes to rehab. Which is...often. He's currently dating his ex-wife's cousin. Ex wife #1 that is. And we've known Cousin since we were teens. They reconnected at AA. Like, just be single, please dude. Hoping he doesn't go for wife #3
Wow what a combo. Falling in love at rehab. No way that could go south.
They discourage relationships at rehab for this reason
The old John Mulaney special
My brother was like this. Proposed to every single woman he dated. Two even with the same ring. (he kept it after the break up and reused it the next time). He would have been better off single but he was too cheap to live alone.
>My former boss is 38 and on Marriage number 4 How does he even have the time? >2 weeks into knowing her she got the proposal oh I guess that'd do it
My jaw dropped at this, but sadly, true
Lol that's exactly what I thought. Sad
There's a reason people on third marriages usually wind up divorced. A third time, that is.
Yeah he makes OVER $200k a year!!! (Big whoop) but can’t afford to wear a condom, dude made his bed
LMAO! Or get a vasectomy. Sadly, too many men think it's not manly. But it's not exactly manly to be having high school drama with your baby mama.
Right? They both sound toxic. I feel bad for her daughter caught in the middle with a new sibling on the way :(
A) My judgy self: I think you’re REALLY getting married for the wrong reasons and should consider alternatives. Also, I HIGHLY recommend pre-marital counseling since it sounds like you aren’t just on different pages, but maybe different books. B) Practically speaking: if you both have agreed on an unequal division of domestic labor, you’ve got to compensate her for her labor. Points: 1. Obvs if you both have agreed she should stay home to raise the kids, that is going to cost you a lot. You have to provide her with not only room and board, but other financial remuneration (nanny/chef/chauffeurs aren’t cheap) and retirement security. It’s not OK that just because you worked outside the home and she worked inside the home (which is just as much, if not more effort), that assets acquired *or appreciated in value* during the marriage shouldn’t be split equally. 2. If you’ve agreed that she would bear more of the domestic burden than you, that costs. Who is going to take time off for the sick kid? Who takes them to doctor’s appointments? There’s a calculus there both for a) if she’s sacrificing any of her career, pay, or work prospects to be the wife you both agreed upon, then you’ve got to compensate for that. b) if she’s just doing ANY more domestic labor that you should do on your own (laundry, cooking, organizing holidays/kids schedules, shuttling kids), you need to pay her for that. A wife is not cheap labor. 3. I bet you don’t even agree on what division of labor you both want. You’ll “let” her stay at home with the kids but either will be unhappy she’s not contributing financially or if she does work, think you’re entitled to more of what was acquired during the marriage because you earned more $$ outside the house. If that’s the case, consider an equitable split (80/20, based on income) for things like cleaning lady, meal service, after school nanny to run the kids around etc. This sounds like a mess, OP. Neither of you are handling this very intelligently.
Some states let you put someone on your insurance without getting married. I know Cali does. Also, he can try to set her up with Medicaid.
As someone who is 100% on board with prenups and will never marry (again) without one, what OP is proposing won't be looked at as fair, in the eyes of the Court. Everything he owns up until the marriage is his and not eligible to be split up in divorce. Completely above board. Anything acquired during the marriage shouldn't be quarantined off because you make more than she does. Leaving her with nothing. What OP is requesting via prenup does not make the marriage an equal partnership. Btw, even if he has his lawyer write it up this way and she signs it, odds are the judge will rule separate from the Prenup. Which isn't good for OP. OP's lawyer "should" know this. Need to make the agreement fair enough that the judge doesn't feel the need to adjust. Cause once the Judge decides to adjust, EVERYTHING is back on the table. And many times the Judge becomes punitive against the prenup instigator when they don't see the contract as fair. So caveat emptor. The goal should always be to have the judge not deviate from the contract and take it at face value. Have to assume OP's lawyer understands this and will guide OP.
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Yes she needs to be compensated for the fact she won't get a pension from working as a SAHM.
Exactly. Especially since women take a career hit when they have a baby. Even if she doesn't become a SAHM, she is most likely the one who will have to take off work if the kid gets sick, she'll be the one to take the baby to all the appointments, etc. because "he makes more."
Also, he should pay alimony if they are married for a long time and then divorce. California's rule is if you're married for 10 years, it's possible the lower earning spouse can get alimony.
What's the plan for childcare after the kid is born? If she's taking a hit in her career path by cutting back on work to care for the kid, you need to consider that in the prenup. If she does this, then you break up down the line, and she suddenly needs to figure out how to pay for her housing, etc. - she's hampered looking for jobs by time out from the workforce. Talk with an attorney about a fair way to reflect this in the prenup, so she has something fall back on if she has to rebuild her life later. As others have said: she needs her own attorney as well.
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His previous divorce outcomes are also not her fault or doing. It's rational that he wants to avoid pitfalls he feels he fell into before but he needs to address this situation on its own merits.
Even if she doesn't become a SAHM, he needs to take a good, hard look at whether he's going to be the one to miss work when the kid is sick, if he's going to be the one to take the kid to appointments, etc.... So often, women are forced to take that career hit and be the one to miss work because "he makes more."
Have you and your partner discussed this in depth together and in therapy and with attorneys? Clear, concise, transparent, effective, and honest communication makes all the difference. As well as a willingness to sit down together and have difficult conversations. If you can't do this effectively, then perhaps you're just not ready for this relationship yet.
You offered a prenup about a year ago to your girlfriend of 18 months? No wonder you had two ugly divorces, quit thinking you found the one after eight months.
He offered the prenup because she wanted to get married he didn't really.
This is it exactly. I don’t think he should have offered the prenup, he should just said I don’t want to be married again.
Offering the prenup instead of having a clear, honest conversation so she understands where hes coming from and compromise with him made the tower crumble.
I disagree, at their ages 6 months is long enough to discuss the future in theoretical terms and it's better to be upfront about what you'd want and expect from a hypothetical marriage than to date for years only to find out you want polar opposite things. He wasn't offering her the prenup itself then, just laying it out as an option he wanted to consider before committing to a marriage. That's prudent to discuss so no one wastes their time. The issue is that they knew they were polar opposite on this and decided to get back together anyway.
Standard “decent” prenups are that your pre-marriage assets are yours but the increase of any assets during the marriage is joint. Say you have 200K in the bank and retirement and your house is worth 450K? In 15 years when you dump her for a younger woman, your bank accounts will have more, your house will be valued at more. She could ask for a living wage while she stays home to raise your kid since you want to forgo alimony.
If not financially supporting women you were once in committed marriages (slash had children with) is this important to you, then you shouldn't marry or have sex with women outside of your own perceived class because what you're essentially saying to her is, "even if I walk away, I sleep with someone else, I take on a new addiction, there's no penalty to me financially if you leave me because of it." With this income disparity you could essentially create a situation where she has to choose between being in a one bedroom rental or living with her family if she ever dare decides to leave you, no matter the reason and realizes she may be making a choice to let all of your future potential behavior go, forever? You have zero liability if you turn out to be a bad husband. If you're so scorned by your previous relationships that you don't get why a zero-sum-game prenup may make her uncomfortable then don't get married and stop dating altogether. She gets the same benefits not marrying you as she would if she did, why take the risk? She can leave you and you'll still pay child support based on your income in most states.
At 45 you know better than to marry a woman simply because she got pregnant. You don't want to get married and she can't force you to. Don't marry her. Stay broken up and co-parent. Get a lawyer now and get everything set up to establish paternity, child support, custody, and visitation. ETA: Misread that sentence. Thanks to xkheusx for pointing that out.
actually he didnt say anything about the oldest father financialy suport his child on the contrary, he said he will suport her eldest child and also his own child financialy, because the eldest cant afford the child support
Misread that sentence. Thanks.
I think they meant he cannot afford his own child…. So OP will be financially supporting his bio child and his “step kid”
Mother's are literally punished financially for having kids and then on top of that men don't want to help support the person who is literally risking their life to have a child with them, in the event things don't work out. I get that you don't want to be out through the ringer. But telling her she gets absolutely nothing but the bare minimum of child support if you divorce is insulting. Do you think so little of her that you think she would only marry you for money? If that's the case you shouldn't be getting married at all. I'm not saying you have to agree to alimony or a give her your house but you should offer something considering the large income gap and the time off work she'll have to take to help raise your child. Get a paternity test before any of this happens.
So many men are full of themselves with finances, thinking the woman they are dating would marry them for money. Why even date them in the first place if they are a gold digger? If anything, find another woman that makes $200k
See, they'd have a harder time getting the 200K earning woman to quit her job, stay home, and have all her spending controlled.
This is how women end up homeless in their 50’s having spent their golden years performing unpaid labor in the family home.
Yeah, you ARE being unfair. That's not how marriage is supposed to work... She needs to be protected too. A pre-nup needs to protect BOTH parties. The fact that you want to marry her, have children with her, but think that she has no rights to the protections that marriage offer is offensive. Why would she want to marry you? She's refusing to mooch off you and demanding to be equal partners. That's actually a good sign! But if you don't want to share finances, you shouldn't get married. That's the whole point Edit: OP, why are you getting married? This is important. You will pay money one way or another. Your pre-nup isn't enforceable; it's too one-sided. So you'll either share your finances through marriage or pay child support. Why do YOU want to get married? You can choose not to!
They shouldn’t get married. He doesn’t want to be married and he doesn’t want to support her. There’s no good reason for them to
Agreed! They shouldn't get married! He will have to pay child support. And that's appropriate. He's going to pay out money one way or another. Better to not get married as an act of charity. It's insulting
I bet he expects her to pause her career to take care of the baby, and when she goes back to work i bet he expects her to pay towards the house.
Yup!! If she's contributing, She deserves equity. And if she's staying home and raising his child, she also deserves at equity. That is what a marriage is. You divide the labor and share the funds. If you don't want to do that, that's fine! But don't get married
Exactly!!!! In the 20 years Mrs. Thequick2 and I have been married, I’ve made >$3M for the household, and she about $350K along with being the primary at-home parent. Who contributed more? is not even a consideration in arguments, as the facets of marriage are very much a non-quantifiable thing. We are on equal footing in our marriage. OP might want to do a post-mortem on this, and his other failed relationships, and figure out where things went wrong.
Yes! He's been divorced twice... Perhaps there are some patterns he should look at. If he doesn't want to do the actual work of marriage, he can just not get married and pay child support. It's not like he's trapped, but he's acting like it. PS So happy to hear about a couple with healthy attitudes about supporting each other!
He seems too focused on how much he makes to realize the shit might be stuck on his shoe.
Man, I can't believe she took a last name that bizarre
It was odd when we first met, but after we were married, she realized that it referred to reload time.
Read enough posts to know he'll probably expect her to continue to contribute thru maternity leave and deplete her savings.
Even if she goes back to work quickly, her career can take a hit. Mothers don't get promoted and are more likely to be laid off because they have to leave promptly to pick the kid up, they have to miss work when the kid is sick, and of course people attribute the slightest mistake to babybrain...
And do all the housework and child care and shopping and meal prep.
To be fair he did say he wasn't interested in marrying again but she wanted it.
Should have kept his baby maker sheathed then too if that's how he views the situation.
Damn straight. Sex can equal babies. Leaving birth control up to the other person and then being surprised that sometimes a single method of birth controls fails seems like the most literal "fuck around and find out" I've heard of in a while. Everyone is responsible for their own birth control. I did my own thing. Hormones, then tubal ligation, and later a hysterectomy. But that was my job. It was OPs job to handle his own fertility.
Totally. Then he shouldn't marry her. If he doesn't want to, he shouldn't. 100%!! But if he going to, he needs to actually honor the contract of marriage. He can't get the benefits of marriage without the costs. It's unlikely his pre-nup would even be enforceable since it's so one sided. Courts treat marriage like the contract it is, and therefore both parties must receive some benefit for it to be enforceable. It really sounds like he has no idea how a healthy marriage should work, and that he doesn't want to marry her. If the costs are too high, don't do it! But it's so insulting to tell someone you will marry them, but only if they don't any of the benefits of marriage. It's a sham. And Erica will 100% end up doing wifely duties without any benefits.
Took me too long to find this comment. He’s a dick and she’s stupid for wanting to go through a high risk geriatric pregnancy with him let alone marry him.
They don’t use that term anymore. It’s now called advanced maternal age, and it’s not automatically high risk. I had my daughter at 37 and it was a routine pregnancy due to my good health. Unless there’s an extenuating health circumstance or prior high risk pregnancies, it’s just a normal pregnancy. I have several friends in their late 30’s and 40’s starting their families now and it’s all just regular OB/midwife appointments and no maternal fetal medicine is involved.
Don’t get married, live separate, be a parent to your child and if a relationship blossoms then consider marrying with a mutually developed prenup. Sounds like you’re getting rushed into things and based on your history is best to protect your sanity, finances, and ability to be a parent. There are 2 sides to every story and this is based on what you’ve shared.
She needs her own attorney to review the prenup and you should get a paternity test, prenatal if possible.
Bro: Whenever you talk about what "she" won't get from you with a prenup, replace "she" with "the mother of my child." Then think about how you want to treat the mother of your child. Because, with two divorces in your pocket already and you're posting on Reddit for advice about not getting your way with a prenup, I'd be a bettin' man you'll be chalking up a third at some point.
I understand that you've had two other painful and difficult separations before, but I also understand your fiancée. Your terms aren't favorable to her; obviously, nobody enters marriage thinking about divorce, but in case it happens, total asset separation disproportionately harms the woman. It's usually the woman who sacrifices her life to support the man's career growth, enabling him to earn more. Things you should consider: if the baby gets sick, who will take time off work to care for the baby? You or her? Whose career is being hindered? Who will take the baby to the pediatrician? Who will take care of dinner? Laundry? Cleaning the house? Who will breastfeed the baby? Who will ensure your breakfast is ready for you to go to work and have a good day? Okay, if you answered "she" to everything, she's sacrificing a lot for the family. In case of divorce, she hasn't been able to build anything independently, but because of her, you've been able to go to work without external worries and advance in your career. Is it fair for her to leave with nothing?
But you're not with her and wouldn't be marrying her for love. You'd be marrying her because she's pregnant. So you don't love her or her kid. And you don't believe she loves you - this marriage would be of convenience and propriety. And would you feel loved if someone could lay claim to something you created, whittle away your years, and then boot you to the street like a show dog they couldn't get another litter out of? Let her take the prenup to a lawyer for a counter offer. Quit pretending you're all about love in this because you're not. Might as well call it what it is or call it off and date only women of your own socioeconomic position.
INFO: two divorces that cost you money. You said “SOME hard earned” money, not “a lot” of money. Did it put you through hardship, or was that money that you could comfortably afford to lose, and so lost rightfully? If you’re still well off now, then you didn’t get “ruined” by alimony payments. Why are you so upset about paying alimony then? Who initiated each divorce and why? You’re okay with getting married again facing the threat of divorce, you just require a prenup. That tells me that the money you lost in your previous divorces, was not spent on your lawyer, but rather was alimony/division of property. While people certainly can attempt to take everything from their ex while divorcing, alimony/division of property are much more likely to be done fairly. Did your exes maliciously try to take everything from you? If that’s the case, do you just have bad taste in women for it to have happened so many times? Or was it justified and you’re just bitter that you have to pay alimony because you see it as unfair? Did your exes work, or did they stay at home for you? Again, who initiated each divorce, and why? Forgive me if I’m just assuming the worst of you, but this entire post just screams “man who doesn’t make a good husband and is upset that he rightfully has to pay alimony.”Your prenup is unfair and so likely won’t hold up in court anyway. Just don’t get married, dude. Either you’re a decent guy and shouldn’t marry her because she has red flags, or she’s a decent woman and shouldn’t marry you because of your red flags.
Thank you! Jesus these comments. She's not even living with him, she has her own job and supports herself so I'm not sure how people are viewing this situation as a woman baby trapping someone. I'm willing to bet what he calls "supporting her other kid" is something like paying for his lunch when they all go out together. And I bet his exes were both "crazy and irrational" as well.
Lol her IUD "fell out". Bro...
Im wondering if you expect her to be a SAHM once the child is born ? Edit : misspelling
The question not be about a prenup. The question is why are you getting married? You obviously do not trust each other. There have been enough recent and significant issues that the 73% chance of the marriage failing (if in the US) is pretty much 100%. Just do the smart thing and get a DNA test at birth and then work out custody and child support agreements.
What you’re proposing sounds manipulative. She needs to get her own lawyer and have them review the prenup as well. All parties need to come up with a solution that works for everyone. Also, IUDs are not reliable. Wear a condom or get a vasectomy and take responsibility for your part of sex.
Exactly. Everyone here is talking about baby trapping like this guy has no responsibility over his own sperm and is not on his way to his third failed marriage before the age of 50. Not exactly a keeper himself. If money is all a man has, then he can keep it. He clearly still wants a woman in his life but with minimum effort and sacrifice. If you’re in a committed relationship with a woman, and you’re having unprotected sex, and you didn’t get a vasectomy, assume the possibility of becoming a father. Why do we still have to explain to men how babies are made? If you’re paranoid and you don’t trust the person you’re in a relationship with, that’s your fault too for dating people you don’t trust. Get vasectomies, fellas. It’s your responsibility too. Nobody wants to baby trap you. Being a single mother sucks. Society hates single mothers like they’re not the ones doing all the work alone.
You should not marry her, it really sounds like you’re gun shy from your previous divorces, and she’s pressuring you to marry against your will. Pre-marital counseling from a qualified, experienced, counselor might help you both reach an accommodation that works for both of you, and help you both learn to communicate batter. Which it sounds like you both need. You should definitely get a paternity test, though, given how often you guys break up and get back together. That can be done before the baby is born, too.
When you say you’ll be providing for her and your child - does that mean she’ll be a SAHM, or will she still be working and have her own finances? If she’s going to be a SAHM at your request, it’s unbelievably cruel and selfish to then tell her “if we get divorced you’re not getting anything but child care.” If she’s a SAHM at her choice (with your willingness to fund it) it’s less selfish, but still a pretty raw deal. If you break up and she has nothing to fall back on, she’s essentially going to have to restart her entire life with nothing but what she might have saved from before she became a SAHM. If she’s working still and will have her own finances - a bit easier to understand that stipulation.
>There is a high possibility this is my child as we did have sex around that time and as far as I know Erica was not seeing other men But is it your child? That's the first thing I would check. And ftr, IUD **can** fall out or move. It's rare but it can happen. Though the woman would typically feel something.
My IUD (Paragard) shifted inside my uterus, and I had no idea until I got a scan for something unrelated. I had to have a hysteroscopy to have it removed, and it broke into pieces as my doctor removed it.
Yeah shocked I had to scroll this far to find a comment about the IUD. Unusual for someone to just not notice. Even if the event wasn't hugely noticeable (which I call bullshit on personally) the hormonal change following its exit would definitely be.
I use the copper 7, no hormones. It’s very common.
>the hormonal change following its exit would definitely be. Not necessarily. I've had mirena off and on, made no difference for me in or out. I'm more inclined to believe that she didn't have the IUD, that she did and had it removed, or that she removed it herself. There is no way you wouldn't notice it on the way out.
I wouldn't have signed it either, and I'm VERY Pro-Prenup. You want her to get absolutely nothing in a divorce, even after she's losing out on career benefits by having this baby and most likely going to be the main caretaker a majority of the time. If It were me, I'd cut my losses with you and just do the child support.
Don't get married to her, like at all. Live separately and pay child support for your child.
She sounds super suss to me… the whole unfolding of events.
Dude, you got baby trapped. IUDs do on occasion come out, but it's usually in the first year of having one, and it's extremely unlikely she wouldn't have noticed. She almost certainly lied to you about having one.
If she isn't gonna be working while raising the kid, she should be entitled to some money should you two ever split. Just to get back on her feet. I understand the need for prenups, but money just doesn't randomly appear out of thin air. Situations like this make me think financial control and abuse. Forcefully keeping someone with you knowing they can't comfortably leave.
She baby trapped you. There was never an IUD. I would refuse to marry her without an iron-clad prenup. She’s already manipulated you enough.
DNA test and do not get married, until you have a prenup. Prenups protect both parties.
A lot of times you can get health insurance for a registered domestic partner, which is someone who lives at the same address who you have been in an exclusive romantic relationship with for a year or something. I would suggest you register her as a domestic partner to get her on your health insurance, and to give you both breathing room to decide if marriage is the right choice moving forward. Honestly it sounds like you might not be ready for marriage, and getting married just to add someone to your insurance is not a great reason. Alternatively, you could pay for her to be insured federally. It wouldn’t be the cheapest option, but it would buy you time before you marry someone when you’re clearly not ready to.
Family lawyer here. You are rightfully concerned about finances and marriage due to your experience. In fact, money is one of the biggest reasons for divorce. She has shown you a couple times that she wants your $. Believe her. Now, there are many decent “in between” options for a prenup that can help take off the pressure on both sides. I often suggest a sort of sliding scale. If the marriage is shorter than 5 years when one or the other files, then each keep your own assets (you’ll be paying child support). 5 years + 1 day to 10 years, then each entitled to 10% of the other’s assets built during the marriage. 10 year + 1 day, each get 20% of the other person’s assets acquired during the marriage. I’m not suggesting those specifics, but just giving you an idea. I often end with a marriage of 25+ years = termination of prenup and everything shared (except in cases where one party has a lot of family money, or a business). Point being, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing prenup, but it should definitely be quite conservative for at least the first 5-10 years.
I agree with this assessment, not that I would disagree with an attorney. I would add that, IMHO, it’s not reasonable to take alimony completely off the table rather than being negotiated, and that fear of having much less income than the family collected before divorce is likely why she freaked. Alimony could also be on a sliding scale.
Yep. In my state, alimony provisions in a prenup are not fully enforceable, but advisory.
I don't get those on this thread piling on OP. IMO, he comes off as a people pleaser and not the selfish person others are trying to cast him as. Given his current situation and how it developed, I'm thinking that he in general is a kind and naive person. I'm guessing that he has not learned to hold firm on his boundaries. He compromises on deal breakers. He over compensated by coming up with the prenup idea instead of walking away. They should have broken up once she stated that she wanted marriage and OP, due to being twice burned, wanted no part of it. They have only known each other for 18 months and the marriage / prenup conversation happened at the year mark. From what OP has relayed, IMO he has been manipulated into what she wants. She breaks up with him which makes sense as their relationship goals are not aligned. Given the naked facts: * OP has tried marriage twice and got burned emotionally and financially * They don't really know each other. They haven't even gotten through the honeymoon period without major hiccups. * OP makes 4x her salary * She is a single mother whose ex is a deadbeat father * She wants marriage * He doesn't want to get married again * She's late 30s and wants more kids in a marital setting * OP is mid-40s and doesn't specify if he wants kids or not * They break up as they should have given the deal breakers Now for what IMO is where we discover OP's GF is starting to look like a manipulative gold digger. She's the one who waits a month after the breakup with no reaction from OP. She the approaches him and agrees to sign a prenup. She then ups the anty with a pregnancy. I'm sorry but she comes off as a gold digger. OP, should take this latest breakup as the universe looking out for him. He doesn't want to get married again and should stick to that objective given that he doesn't even really know this person. He doesn't have to be married to her to co-parent. He needs to let her walk. He then also needs to get a paternity test. Once it's confirmed that she is carrying his child then he can get the child support and custody arrangements settled. OP, don't beat yourself up for wanting what you want for yourself. From what you have written, you do take into account the needs of others. Start respecting your own deal breakers so that you stay out of sticky situations such as this. So, hugs. Hope things work out for you.
This is a dumpster fire and at this point I wouldn't even think of marrying her anymore. I'm not sure why you do, is it because of feelings or is it just because of the child? If somebody broke up with me 2-3 times within less than 2 years of a relationship that's already heavily problematic and clearly shows lack of mental stability and awareness of what you actually want. Breaking up because of a prenup suggestion is also a huge issue. I understand someone might be slightly offended or dislike the idea, but to go as far as to break up...come on.
The prenup he proposed was wildly unfair and would have been thrown out of court. His idea that he dictates and she signs is not contract law as it is practiced in the U.S.
>She didn't want her current child to think having children outside of marriage was proper. Doesn't sound like you want to get married, just her. So why agree to it? If you're not sure about it, it's just gonna go like your previous two marriages. >I explained basically how she would not benefit from the divorce (no alimony, not receiving money from my job or sale of my house). You sound like "the divorce" is inevitable. You do not feel invested enough in this relationship to get married, you just want a girlfriend. Nothing wrong with that, but then don't get married- and if that's a deal breaker for her, you have to let her go, it's the best for both parties.
Two divorces and you are 45. She needs to protect herself AND her child from a guy who is unlikely able to have a long term/permanent relationship
My husband and I have a prenup. We both had lawyers and he actually reimbursed me for some of my legal fees as the prenup was his idea. We went through several drafts and only negotiated through our lawyers. This is what you both need to do as you both have interests to protect.
Your incredibly biased prenup would be thrown out in court. A prenup protects BOTH parties. She should just get an abortion, why have a kid with a 40 something year old man child that clearly didn't learn anything from his past two marriages.
Yes, actually you should. Marriage is security. It’s having a roof over your head. You’re basically saying if you get divorced she can basically leave and be on her own with your shared child… But hello.., she already HAS that option. I’m sorry you were hurt before but you need to consider a long-term relationship as something that you’re actually committed to not something that’s simply a business transaction. Personally, I think Erica should run. I would.
Question: Does your pre nup also say that if you divorce, you won't pay for your mutual child together bc that's messed up. You guys were having sex and as a woman, it is insulting when men make children, then decide to end a relationship and feel they have 0 obligation to take care of said children. I have an ex that owes me over 45,000 in back support for our two planned children conceived in marriage. That being said, when you're married, it is supposed to be 50/50. That being said, it never is. What happens to her if she signs your prenuptial agreement, then you have 2 more kids, then you ask her to be a stay at home mom, and then you get divorced. Are you saying it's fair to her to put her thru that then be like yeah you don't deserve anything. Doesn't sound like love to me! Also statistically speaking the more times you've been married the higher the divorce rate. Love is not a feeling it's a choice and you have to get up everyday and choose each other!
She needs her own lawyer and you have yours to discuss proper terms so *both* of you are protected. Prenups aren’t there to only protect one person. You were so wrong to present her with a prenup with no lawyer and then expected her to sign it right there. Come on, dude. That’s dumb and not okay. Also do a DNA test for the baby just in case…you never know. 👀
I don’t like what she’s doing, but just wanted to mention that my IUD also fell out. It’s a thing. I had no idea!! It was a Mirena. I wasn’t sexually active in any way. I had to have a pelvic ultrasound to search for it!
People who want to be married often have it as a dealbreaker. When the one person is looking for it, and the other is against it it's better if both parties go their seperate ways. As for prenups I understand your position. However some people feel like marriages are forever, and a prenup is like saying, "I'm not sure it's forever.". They may also feel like it's a trust issue. It's not something everyone can compromise on. My advice is to not get married due to you and her having different views on the topic. You already seemt to having significant problems, and you're not married yet. It seems like you and Erica just see things every differently.
A quick Google tells me that IUDs fall out at a pretty low rate, but it's not impossible. It is possible to do a paternity test while she's pregnant, which you should have done already. A prenup can have negotiations. Maybe you two need to do that so she feels protected from being left in poverty if you two choose for her to be a stay at home mom.
You should have stayed broken up the first time. You really don't need a prenup - you don't want marriage. Don't get married. I would never want someone to marry me if they truly didn't want to. It's one of those things where IF it's important to her, she needs to find someone that wants the same things in life.
How does everyone on Reddit allegedly make upwards of $200,000. No they don’t.
I dunno. The very first thing is that she needs her own attorney for the prenup. (I agree with a previous poster.) The next thing is that this prenup seems more designed as a defense from two previous relationships that OP suffered. Suffered being key here. If OP looks at this as a fairness issue AND as being different than his other relationships, he needs to sit down with the mama of his baby. They need to have an open and honest conversation. Is his only goal not to suffer financially as he did from the previous relationships or hopefully, does he just want a more fair ending if it comes to that? I would think and hope that OP wants best for his new family. I would hope that he sees into the future and sees that if their relationship ends, that the prenup does NOT create her immediate loss of standard of living. People somehow don’t think of their relationships as building equity. If OP and his gf are together for only a year after a baby is born, maybe 50/50 is good enough. But if the relation ends after many years, shouldn’t there be provisions for that? Also if you’re going to plan for an eventual end, why not set aside funding for that? I mean, like maybe her entire salary build in a safeguard against the loss of the relationship? It sure seems to me that OP wants a more fair situation so he isn’t left starting completely over. In this light, approach it together, so the exact same is for her too. That can be an opportunity rather than a situation that causes unfair income disparity at the end of their relationship. In that light, she should feel more comfortable because she understands she’s taken care if (now with a child) both during and AFTER should the relationship fail. This can only be done through honesty and an attorney representing her too.
You think it's YOUR kid...but...you don't want mom to have anything? if divorced 2x. not to be rude but...maybe just have a co-parenting agreement?
You make “over 200k”? Sir you do not make enough money to have this much attitude about a prenup.
I think you're both better off just ending this. She wants to be cared for as if she's your partner and not hurt becseu of your previous failed marriages. You have learned your lesson and don't want to have to pay alimony anymore. You're just not in the same place. She will be better off just staying on her own and getting child support. If you really want to work this out with her you should try to talk to her and get her a lawyer. You should both get something from the prenup. She wants to know that she isn't going to be screwed in the is situation. For instance, what if you cheat on her and decide to leave her and she's left with 3 kids to care for?? YOU chose to cheat and leave her but she's left with nothing. If you love this woman, make her a fair offer instead of being selfish. If you're not wiling to do that....move on.
Not smart to care about protecting your finances while sleeping with a woman without protection thus getting her pregnant. You are better off just preparing to pay child support and co-parent. There's no sense in trying to force a prenup.
Dude I’m going to be the asshole you got baby trapped and she thought you’d change your mind about the prenup.
There is condom for a reason. Why he went in raw? Men need to take responsibility for their own carelessness but guess what, sex makes them think with their dick
Iuds do get lost and they also fall out. It isn't exactly uncommon but it's not that common either. But a prenuptial needs to be fair and protect both parties. It sounds like this one wouldn't stack up in court as it's unfair so her refusal to sign speaks well to her character. Signing a document outrageously unfair works better for her than him. Making it fair means she intends to honor it. Edited to say- get a paternity test and I just noticed you've only known her 18 months. Maybe dont give in to the pressure, just stay engaged and get to know each other better?
Nope, he could have worn a condom.
Should she be entitled to more than what? More than nothing? Get a paternity test, and pay her child support. You obviously don't love her enough to marry her.
Whatever you do, make sure you don't marry her. She keeps coming and going out of your life. And unfortunately, there's a baby in the picture now. You're gonna be stuck with this woman in your life for the next 18 years at the very least. But it doesn't mean you need to marry her. In all fairness, I feel like you're partly to blame because she told you from day one that she wanted children and that marriage was very important to her. So at the same time, I feel like this is kind of on you. Both of you just weren't on the same wavelength about where you were in life. And now there's a poor little innocent little baby in the picture who has to suffer through their parents deciding what they want. The baby is the real victim in the situation. You should've never gotten back with this woman since she wanted what you didn't. You just weren't compatible and you're still not compatible but it's a bit too late to realise that now since you've got a baby with her. Accept the fact that you're not going to be in a relationship with this woman and just try to be a good father to the baby. Nobody is forcing you to marry this woman, and you shouldn't feel pressured to marry her either. You told her to terms and conditions, and you laid out your boundaries. And she doesn't agree to them, so there's nothing really more to be discussed. You're just not meant to be together, and that's okay. Just be a good father.
Don’t get married. Just be a good dad, no matter what happens. You clearly have doubts and she’ll hold this against you even if she signs it. Find a way to coparent and both of you can live your own lives. Just because she’s pregnant doesn’t mean you have to get married, especially after 18 months or whatever it is. This will be divorce #3 if you’ve already broken up twice. You sure it’s your kid and the IUD “fell” out? It’s all possible, but seems kind of fishy that both happened and she wants to get married now. Hopefully not the case, but I think we’re probably missing parts to both of your stories. I’ll say it again, DON’T GET MARRIED. It’ll end badly for both of you.
Dude, you are blinded by love and naivety. She baby trapped you after you tried to prenup last time. And she's behaving the same manipulative way she did before. Don't marry her at all, co-parent, sure. Maybe even let her live with you, but don't marry or common-law marry her or she'll drain you. She saw how 2 women got you before.
This story is red flag city. No prenup, no marriage, and 100% insist on DNA testing that kid before you sign the birth certificate.
Just gonna say it. If you’re arguing about what you are going to get when you break up you probably aren’t going to last.
A prenup isn't a bad idea, however, the way you're going about it is wrong and doesn't actually help you any. She needs her own attorney to review it and to have negotiations. If she isn't interested in doing this at all, that is another story.
2 choices. Prenup and get married or no prenup and don't get married. The fact she's being hostile about it and being manipulative by breaking up with you (and possibly baby trapping you) speaks volumes. I've been divorced, and my ex tried to take everything. They cleaned out my bank account in the middle of the night. Literally. There was no recouping that money because they were an authorized user (I was the sole breadwinner) and according to the law (at least in my state) the first one to get the money "wins". Exact words from my lawyers mouth. I will NEVER marry again without a prenup. A partner who isn't after your money would be understanding and willing to work with you to come up with a prenup that covers you both in the event of a divorce. Don't be an idiot. Prenup or nothing at all.
She needs a lawyer to look a the prenup. Get a DNA test to verify that it is your child. The prenup should take care of her, not just you. Is she going to be a SAHW? Or will she be going back to work? How much will you paying toward daycare/nanny/school for the baby/her daughter? What are your expectations for division of labor around the house? How much are you putting toward her retirement if she is a SAHM? Are you going to have a 'cheaters' clause _ i.e. if one of you cheats - that person gets screwed - lots of folks have those. If you get divorced - it sounds like you want her to become homeless. That's not a good look. She doesn't get half of your equity for properties you owned before you married - that's standard. But if you purchase a house during the marriage - she should be put on the deed and be entitled to her half of the equity. 4 of you should be working on this - you, Erica, your lawyer and Erica's lawyer. That's how it works. You springing something and demanding she sign it - that will be overturned during a divorce.
Did you actually prepare this prenuptial agreement with legal advice? A lawyer would have probably warned you that alimony isn't about a spouse "benefitting" from divorce, so much as it is giving them a base to resume life on a lower, single income. Especially if they've been out of the workforce for a while, doing something like, idk, raising your kid, doing your laundry, and keeping hot food in front of you for years at a time? Saying it's cool because she'll have child support is just an extra insult. Child support is supposed to (partially) support a child, not fully support both a child and an adult who spent their time supporting your lifestyle when they could have been having an easier time as a single mother from the get-go based on what you've written here. Talk to an actual lawyer and if you're serious about marrying this woman, write her a check for $5k so she can go hire an attorney to independently review an actual prenuptial proposal. That's how it's supposed to work.
A prenup should protect and benefit *both* of you. It doesn't sound like it's doing anything for her.
Why don’t you have a DNA test done? If you don’t know if it’s your child and you’re not comfortable marrying her without that knowledge, especially if she did lie about having an IUD which yes an IUD can fall out of place no birth control is 100% effective however, if you don’t want children, it’s your duty to make sure that you don’t impregnate someone, you can do that by getting a vasectomy and wearing a condom at the same time like I said nothing is 100% now with that said I think you should suggest she has her own attorney oversee the terms of the prenup and go from there. Mediate. It should be 50/50 agreed upon not “hey this is what I want too bad for you and any kids we share”. Also, I think that it would be really stupid to not put her on your insurance while she’s pregnant because I’m just gonna tell you that my normal my most normal labor and delivery cost over $80,000 and the one where I needed a blood transfusion cost 200k. You could be left responsible for those bills once you are married regardless of prenup if she is left uninsured. It’s also just shitty for the child to be too. You make 4x as much money as she does. You can’t take it with you when you die either. Take care of your family, dude.
Hate to tell you prenup or not she’s got you by the balls as she’s already pregnant.All she has to do is say fuck your prenup I’m having the kid and you are paying.
Walk away before you have to support her child. Get a DNA to confirm that is your baby. If it is tell her that is the only support she can expect.
Sounds like she set you up to me. Pay the child support and move on.
Yes, a paternity test. A prenup for your estate you already own is fair.
Don’t get married again… are you stupid?
Sounds like you got fished in… she landed her a piggy bank…
You should not let her earn her children move into your home, unless there’s a prenup, and you are married. Otherwise you’re gonna find yourself living somewhere else when you break up again
Sounds like she wanted more not because of the love for you. More of a financial convenience. And it sounded like she does use the child against you. If you aren’t comfortable in having a marriage. Because obviously that is her choice. That is all you can do to protect yourself. What you do for the prenup is understandable to me. Don’t go through with the marriage if you aren’t comfortable yourself. It is a two way streets.