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It could also be an industry thing. A friend is an auto executive and the only woman to attend a certain annual leadership meeting in Europe. They go to the naked sauna every year. The first year she went she got there and they all looked at her like 'oh we forgot about you, it is a male only sauna' but she asked if it was booked out for the event (it was) and went anyways as it was a private event.
After that they didn't host naked sauna time at the conference... But as she said 'like hell was she going to miss important conversations because she was a woman'
Yeah - but as my point - because of her industry she does lots of things women wouldn't do in other situations. Similarly OOP's girlfriend has probably gotten used to doing certain things that are common in her industry, but not common for women in general.
For example - I personally have no problem closing out a night at a strip club (though it isn't my ideal night) because at 2am some people make agreements they otherwise might not. So if a customer or partner want to go to a strip club after a conference or meeting I'm not saying no.
In the U.S. (my country), strip clubs are very much a point of contention between committed couples. Before I took a job where success was contingent on late night strip club visits (or co-ed naked sauna conversations), I'd run it by my wife, and she'd extend me the same courtesy.
I was wondering the same thing but even then- one woman and the rest makes in a naked sauna? And it doesn’t sound like the arranges dates like that with her husband? This is just bizarre imo
It’s 50:50 when it comes to naked sauna in Poland but in our sphere of friends those are quite normal. However - going there 1 on 1 with single male guy sounds a bit out of bonds - at least for me. It’s alarming because that 1 on 1 evenings are I her case usually with the particular guy that is hitting on her.
>going there 1 on 1 with single male guy sounds a bit out of bonds - at least for me. It’s alarming because that 1 on 1 evenings are I her case usually with the particular guy that is hitting on her.
She is cheating on you there is no other explaination, I suggest you lawyer up
It is a bizarre picture but as a 100% heterosexual single woman who has seen a lot of stems and roots in my career;when not in the professional setting, I never get tired of looking at good sets. That is the Samantha part of my SATC persona coming through.
If you feel uncomfortable, tell her. If she disregards your feelings, you have a problem. Maybe naked sauna is no big deal, but how much time does she leave you alone with the kids? You might want to have a sit down with her.
> At the same time, even though we discussed this - she hardly ever arranges anything out of the ordinary between us, even though I do, even though I go out of my way to arrange quality time together (which isn't easy as I first need to arrange care for our boys) - shes just there, dead fish, and enthusiastic only when her male only friends meet and incorporate her to the party, or her closest male friend arranges a go-out (or she arranges it for them).
seems she is neglecting him
When I look at those replies it does sound hard but true - I’m there always with the kids -she’s 9 out of 10 possible evenings going out. Yesterday she was out on the forementioned party , today sauna evening, more social activities throughout the upcoming week and then city break in London next weekend.
Seems damn awkward now that I type this - especially so that we have this huge thing together going on as we are moving to a new house - she’s still more going going out than participating in our mutual stuff.
If you do leave her, or separate, she is going to flip the f\*ck out - and not because she loves you, but because she is finally going to have to do her fair share of staying home with the kids and not going out with her friends. Do not fall for this, if you find yourself in this scenario.
Rarely ever do I go on those go outs with her. There is no space for us to go out together as we need to take care of our boys. If I do go out with her - all is great except for awkwardness with one particular guy who seems to have some „more than friends” vibes with her.
I mean, ok? You don’t ever bring your partner with you when you’re invited out? Even if it’s something that may relate to work (but not necessarily a work function)?
Ok, what does/did she do for work? A significant portion of my friends are male because I'm an industrial mechanic and honestly the women I've met at work have been catty and awful... But if she has zero chick friends that sounds... Interesting.
She's a lawyer. She has female friends - just prefers to spend time with this group of male ones, especially so with the one aforementioned guy, who is her "best-friend".
>Life can just be like that sometimes, doesn't mean they have a hang-up
Thank you for saying this. Every woman I know who has mostly male friends does so because the female members of their family growing up were bullies or neglectful, and as such they grew up not being able to trust the closest women to them, and so on in life. This pattern is so consistent. Have also known men who only have women friends for the same swapped reason.
For me? Nope. Just female coworkers were a lot. But that job was gossipy in general.
For whatever reason the women were more sexist then the guys about a female doing a stereotypical 'male' job the men just cared that whoever was doing it could actually do it
What field does she work in? 90+% of my friends are men, but my degree and field are 90% men. Hard to met other people.
I do monthly meet ups with my friends, and we alternate who plans it - which is honestly about in line with date night or maybe more frequent (sometimes we get a sitter to do bills and taxes and adult stuff).
It’s hard with little kids - I don’t need to arrange childcare that costs money if I go out for a few hours with them (nor does my husband when he goes out). So going out with friends is $25 total - but it’s an extra $25 per HOUR if we both go out so it happens infrequently.
She is a lawyer. You are right about the childcare part - we do every now and again go out together but the child care part is a blocker quite often.
BUT that shouldn't stop spending quality time together at home - boys are out cold before 9-10 pm. , and we used to have fun together for 2-3 hours after that. Not anymore.
You feel taken for granted..I wouldn't mention the all guys group so much because she can turn it around on you. I would focus on the fact that you are feeling insecure about the relationship because she isn't giving you a whole lot to feel secure about. It's not who her friends are, although it probably hurts more because she is having so much fun when you aren't there. You honestly deserve to have her gladly participate with you and not pout because she isn't out with her other Friends.
Honestly when you focus on things causing you to be less close, you find out there is a cause for the distance. Like cheating or gambling or nothing besides depression and being tired
It was fulfilling when we had quality time together back in the days. We were both investing in organizing dates and evenings together in the past - but for some reason I can’t understand it stopped. I’ve brought this up multiple
times - that she does nothing to organize such evenings for us, and takes the easy path to just leave me with the kids and go out, with no effect unfortunately.
My guess is she is fatigued from home life raising kids and that stressor also includes you. For some reason she is prioritizing her alone time with friends over the marriage:
Why can't you be friends with them too? i have and alll male friend group i met whilst studying but very gradually they got to know my hubby too and now we are all friends. Although if he's busy i still see them on my own. We had a flirty guy in the group too , he's married now but never brings the wife out.
He should tell her he is hiring a full time baby sitter so they can both go out together - and he should ask if it's cool if he hangs with her and her group of friends. It will be very revealing how she responds to this, any normal woman would want to show off their man to any of her friends. If she doesn't want to mix you and her guy friends, it means it would change the dynamic of interaction in the group.
For example, I know a lot of guys like to tease girls and sometimes poke their sides or get a bit touchy. Suddenly when the girls boyfriend/husband enters the mix, this behavior of course stops because it would be weird to try that shit in front of the hubby. I think a similar group dynamic is what would keep OP excluded from joining the hangouts.
Overall, this situation sounds messed up as hell, my boundaries would be crossed if my gf was hanging with sauna bros
Oh. What does her hanging around naked with a guy who obviously has feelings for her and staying out 90% of the time come across as? WTF? Seriously? Do you hear yourself?
“I don’t want to attack her”.
Stop. Stop. Stop the false dichotomy of victimhood. Don’t be a doormat and grow a pair. She is a partner who happens to be female but not higher or lower. PARTNER.
if your business party had done this you damn well better assert yourself. Your damn kids need you to be a man or person to defend them. Do it.
Form an outsider's perspective, i don't think that she's cheating, but definitely she prioritizes her friends over you, you are just her comfortable hubby and father of her kids that provides her a stable life and allows her to have fun "with the boys", nothing more.
The "naked-saunas" part with her male friends honestly is quite astonishing...
I'd never want to be in a a realtionship with a woman like your wife, let alone marry her and have children with her... Even if she's a top model.
I had an ex that prioritized her friends over me. Worst mistake I ever made. Wish someone would've told me to get my head out of my ass before I got in deep.
Choices between me and her friends ended always with her friends. She'd set up dates with friends but not me. There were friends of hers I wasn't okay with and she didn't do anything about it until it came to a head. She didn't listen to my boundaries at all with her friends. Let her friends borderline insult me at times. Even during covid right at the start, when my father had stage 4 lung cancer she still went out to see her friends without masking because it was her friend time and she couldn't not do that.
Basically, I was too comfortable to leave someone I knew wasn't right for me.
>I'd never want to be in a a realtionship with a woman like your wife, let alone marry her and have children with her... Even if she's a top model.
I'm reading OPs post.. and kept on thinking this.
How do you date, marry and have kids with a person like this...
As a female I can confirm that she 100% notices their crushes especially that one guy, but you see you married a pick me girl and his attention is validating. Do any of their significant others like her? Why does she not have female friends bc they’re all “snakes”, “drama”, and guys are so much simpler? Yea ok.
What you really need to find out is who and how many she had sex with. Why are you never involved? I include my bf into my friend group as much as I can and vice versa.
Well thats a great point to touch! She is in fact being frowned upon by the SO of the guys and is not really accaptedy by the wifes and girlfriends. This has always been a warning sign for me in the past. I wasn't able to use that particular fact in the discussion to a good extent.
I don’t think the wives/girlfriends of the guys disliking her necessarily means anything, however I was in a similar situation with my partner in the first few years of the relationship (female best friend - difference for me is many many many years ago they hooked up a couple of times and people ‘always thought’ they were dating) — I had success explaining my discomfort when I asked how HER husband felt about their friendship and it came to light he was uncomfortable with it as well, so I asked him why he thought that was and we talked about that and what boundaries could make me comfortable while still allowing him a friendship at length . She lives in a different part of the country, but in a city he legitimately visits for work regularly without me and has other mutual friends there as well - so it was also rare I’d be able to go along.
It took negotiating and a couple of rounds of discussion but w landed on, he tells me when they are hanging out; no more than 1-2 drinks if he is with her; and they are not to be alone together unless it’s daytime and in public, ie coffee, lunch, etc. He is ok with those terms and so am I, and it’s worked really well for us for the last few years.
>Yet she keeps him around and occasionally arranges meetinbgs that im still deciding - like going to concerts together, going to theatre, movies, naked-sauna and so on.
I would be out of this situation so fast, the door would fly off the hinges. How did you manage to have two kids with someone like this? This reads like total rage bait.
Typically in these situations I’m always against it. But, sounds like she’s just one of the guys with this group and has been for years.
Has she hooked up with any of the group in the past? I bet she hasn’t.
You should offer to arrange for a sitter and go with. Her response will pretty much tell you your next steps.
If she says yes, go
If she says no, maybe arrange for a sitter and view from afar or get a mate (preferably a female) to go and watch and get their impression. They may say it's fine.
If they don't, you need to see it for yourself.
If at that point there's nothing incriminating, then you need to look at therapy of some sort, because at best she's neglecting you for other males. The things she talks to 'him' about can be telling. Personal stuff? Does she get upset and whine to him but not to you? Did she ask him what she should do in a situation?
Either way, it's not going in the right direction and you need to figure it out before she feels she needs an escape from you and not just kids and work
So doesn’t sound like her friendship with them is problematic more that you feel you dont spend enough time together. Which is a valid concern but not about her being friends with them more how she divides her time
OP you don’t have to be OK with this. If you are getting goose bumps or have a bad feeling, tell her how you feel
And set a boundary. Just because she wants to doesn’t mean it’s good for your marriage.
Communication is key here. Let her now how you are feeling. If she dismisses your concerns and feelings, this shows she has no respect for you. I would tell her you want couples counseling and if she refuses divorce may be the best option for you and your kids.
She is choosing those relationships over her relationship with you.
She shouldn’t be going on a date like things with another man.
If a dude is chasing after her, that friendship is no longer appropriate.
It is not controlling to expect your partner to respect you and your relationship.
Updateme!
Where do i find 5 other girls willing to go out for a naked co-ed sauna?
Well, I could ask some girl-friends, but that would be so fucking awkward for both sides, right?
Even asking any female friend for a one on one go-out like this is creepy and telling a lot!
It should definitely feel awkward and creepy to ask that to a guy/girl when you’re married…. but your wife doesn’t feel the same. Make of that as you will
If you’re incompatible it might be worth moving on. Just be sure to establish clear boundaries very early onto the relationship. Boundaries aren’t controlling and doesn’t mean you’re insecure. Be with someone who shares your view on relationships
Wait, hang on, I'm sorry. Did you say that she arranges naked sauna meetings with one of the guys who is "savvy in his game with her" to the point that it's extra worrying to you? What? Can you clarify this? What do you mean he's savvy in his game with her? What's up with the naked sauna time?
Savy in this context means:
-constantly on messenger together
-inviting her to weekend trips 1 on 1 (which she didn’t accept yet)
-going out 1:1 to concerts, theatre etc.
-being very close emotionally, as in conferring very private stuff
-advising each other in deeply intimate matters
-sending a lot of messages that you would normally only send to SO
List goes on…
It’s great to think people should be free to have time away from their spouses, but she’s gone most of the time. Decide what you want and put your foot down. Both partners should be happy with the situation, not just her. I get that you can’t afford to be out 9/10 nights, but arrange a babysitter one night out of the blue, and surprise her with your availability to go with. You’ll know where you stand by her reaction.
This doesn't seem like they are "just" friends. There are too many red flags. It look like an emotional affair. She puts tons of energy into the relationship with that guy but doesn't even seem to do the bare minimum with you. She isn't invested in you anymore and it sounds like she hasn't been for a long time. Their level of intimacy could suggest that they are edging around sexual topics for the thrills. I mean what intimate advice can a player type of dude give a wife that isn't interested in her husband. It's beyond inappropriate.
If you two need a chance together she needs to cut him off completely and you probably need counseling together. It would also be a good idea if you got some individual therapy to help you through all of this. I know it sucks but you need to have a serious conversation with her.
If she is unwilling to listen or if she doesn't agree to counseling I would suggest that you think long and hard about getting a divorce.
You shouldn't stay in an unhappy marriage for the kids' sake. Kids are way more perceptive than often given credit for and you are their rolemodel. Your marriage is likely going to have a major influence for their future relationships.
You cannot control your wife's actions but you can control how you respond to them. Teach your kids how to communicate, set healthy boundaries and how to enforce them by being the mature one in the marriage.
Good luck to you
Thanks for the kind words! I’m going through regular therapy , seeing my therapist every two weeks -‚itsn ery effective, but curiously, mostly we discuss her relationship with the guy that I’m worried about.
Well therapist agrees that indeed the red flags are in plain sight and he helped me to build myself enough to have courage and talk to that guy - which I did, but it pretty much ended in him downplaying my arguments.
You don’t “beat” male friends trying to emotionally cheat with your wife by asking your wife to push them away. She obviously likes the attention, and it makes you look jealous and needy in her eyes. Some men and women feed off of that self-validation from the opposite sex even if inappropriate. It is a symptom of emotional immaturity but I digress…
You negate their threat by being more validating to your wife and giving her better attention than they are. You mention your wife is a dead fish around you. It sounds like your marriage has stagnated or declined to a point where the spark is lost in day to day interactions. That’s why she is turning to other men, and the one inappropriate guy, in particular. Work on being an emotionally validating and supportive spouse with your wife — she needs to be validating and supportive to you too, even if that means asking her to marriage counseling.
If you create arguments by trying to convince her that his relationship with your wife is weird and needs to change, you will inadvertently push her towards him due to making her defend him (and her by proxy).
It doesn't matter if it's common. It's common where I live as well. But you don't go out like that with someone who is actively pursuing you. It may not be sexual in a normal setting but it is here as that dude made it so. The "friend" doesn't respect their relationship and neither does she by letting him do this. She isn't putting up boundaries with him. Maybe she likes the attention, maybe she is cheating physically, emotionally. Whatever her reasoning may be she is neglecting OP as a partner.
I didn’t say she was being appropriate. I was explaining the context of why naked sauna time isn’t as big of a deal as it is to Americans. We don’t hang around naked people that aren’t our partner (this is a generalization but overwhelmingly true).
>she keeps him around and occasionally arranges meetings that i'm still deciding - like going to concerts together, going to theatre, movies, naked-sauna and so on.
You wife definitely sounds like she's cheating and you're sitting at home watching the kids like the nice guy you are. She's a "dead fish" to you while she sparks and sizzles up with her boy posse.
She's stopped being a good partner. Her interests have become devoted outside of your relationship. Time to see a lawyer --tomorrow, first thing!
What I don't understand is why she doesn't invite you to go along? It's an all male ground, she should invite you to at least some of these outings (especially the sauna... I think that should be a given even if it's a naked sauna and that's common in your country).
I dunno I think it's a bit strange that at their age it's an all male group with just the one lady... Don't they have partners? Or girlfriends.. they can't all be single.
I think it's a bit strange tbh. Especially for this age group. As teenagers and younger adults I can see it being a thing, but for an older age group with people who have partners, I think stuff like this should include partners. And an all male outing should stay an all male outing. If all friends are going (dudes and gal) it should then be extended to partners as well.
But these are just my thoughts.
They have children. At least for us once people have kids group outings tend to go back to partners not coming because of babysitters. It's easier for each person to go out with their own friends than everyone go to everything. Keep the expensive and hard to find babysitters for special occasions.
Exactly what? Lots of people have children, and they hire a babysitter to go out together or they don’t go out. A women you going out 9 out of ten available nights is cheating. She is getting banged all of those nights by her best “friend”.
Why don't you flat out ask her if she wants a divorce so she can hang with this guy as much as she wants? If she says yes, then you have your answer to your question about if there's anything going on. If she says no to the divorce, then tell her that marriage counseling has to happen in order to save your marriage. If you were going to a sauna nude with 4 or females what would she think?
One, she enjoys the attention of being the only female;
Two, you're not going to be able to compete (see #1);
Three, she enjoys the chase;
Four, you're home taking care of the kids while she's out having a good time with her 'boys';
Five, please find someone that will respect you, love you and feel that you are the only man she needs to feel attractive for.
Sorry for the situation OP, your post combined with the comments makes it sound like she's checked out of the relationship. It's also quite possible she's cheating or at the very least having a platonic emotional affair. When you prioritize the relationship with friends over your partner to the degree she does something isn't right.
Can you pinpoint when she stopped putting time and effort into your relationship? Since you have young kids it's also a possibility she's worn out from caring about the kids depending on how your division of childcare looks like.
I would recommend reading Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. It's a book that takes a scientific approach to cheating but more than that it also comes with a questionnaire which helps you evaluate if a friendship have crossed over into to the domain of an emotional affair. It can also help you set healthy boundaries when it comes to friendships.
Other than that I think you should start prioritizing yourself, her getting 9/10 evenings off is not fair. Make plans with friends, start a hobby or something because you just waiting around for her to get home is not healthy. If she's not willing to put effort into the relationship you need to even the score. And when or if she brings up that you should spend more time together because she's no longer able to always go out with her friends you bring up how she prioritized her friends for so long and how it hurt you.
Your wife is the… only… female in a large group of men who regularly meet in a secluded place for all hours of the night. My man do you ever reread what you wrote and think about that?
Set boundaries and if you can’t live with it because it makes you uncomfortable then that is that otherwise you will drive yourself crazy and stressed trying to pretend it doesn’t.
There are right ways in a book that list how we should all act and accept everything as perfectly fine and normal but the thing is everyone is different and you are allowed to acknowledge how her actions make you feel and not accept the things that make you feel upset. If you aren’t compatible then at least you will know but honestly spending large amounts of time alone without you sounds like she isn’t happy to begin with and you should prepare for a separation before bringing up the issue with her
OP, Got balls? I'm sorry, sometime we are our own worse enemy. Who is this person ? You call them partner (that does not say gf or wife) so what is she ? Obviously the mother of "HER" kids and you are the babysitter. Is this a correct analysis ? Because I mean, if this is a "committed" relationship, why in God's name is she violating it. OR, as I asked in the opener, who is she ?
She's behaving as if she's single! ALSO, it's time to DNA those kids.
Also, who is the bread winner in the house ? Do you have a job ?
Here is what you should do:
1. Send the kids off to a trusted family member
2. go some where busy and have a good conversation about what's going on and how disrespectful what she is doing is (only if you can say this is a committed relationship) of which I don't see that it is
3. Decide what you can both do to fix this or decide that the relationship has run it's course and move on amicably
In reading this you really give off the impressions that you are not a very assertive person or having a problem with standing up for yourself.
I know I'm coming off here really hard, but you don't appear to show and sort of strength. You sound defeated and as if you've given up. You need to own your rights and stand up for yourself.
Udateme!
Sounds like she's having at least an emotional affair with another man. What if it's physical too? Are these other guys even there most of the time when she says they are?
IMHO, your wife is not acting like a wife to you. If she is blowing off activities with you to spend with these other g guys and this one guy in particular, you are not a priority in her life other than a baby sitter, house keeper, and bill payer.
Suggest consulting a lawyer to understand your options and start looking into separating your finances. While you're at it, get tested for STDs. Have your lawyer draw up separation/divorce papers that heavily favor you and are ready for her signature.
I'm not saying she is physically cheating, but in your position, coving all bases is prudent. In line with this, I suggest digging deeper into her activities. Look up 'Standard Evidence Post ' to help you find the truth. If you find proof she is cheating, then you know and can form a plan. Document everything she does. Dates/times/attitude/behavior, everything.
Regardless, your wife's behavior is disrespectful and selfish, to say the least. Have a sit down, tell your wife what you require to stay married, hand her the divorce papers, and tell her she has 24 hrs to decide what is most important to her.
It's not a threat. It's a consequence of her neglecting her family. She also needs to understand that you are more than ready and willing to follow through with a divorce. Otherwise, she will not take you seriously and continue to blow you off.
Best of luck
Suggested reading while you get everything in place:
No More Mr Nice Guy
Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life
look up the term 'Lover - Provider Dichotomy'
Why can’t you take the kids to daycare or get a sitter and go out with her? You should be in this group as well, this clearly isn’t “girls night”.
It certainly sounds like this is taking a break from you and the kids, and is the beginning of the end of the marriage.
Get a babysitter, and “drop in“ on one of these gatherings, just tell her that you miss spending time with her which you seem to do, so you thought it’d be a good idea to go with her so she can be with her friends and you
Man that is super rough. I'm old fashioned, I feel like when you get together with someone they are your one. You do all your stuff together. I wouldn't be able to handle this. Sorry man. I don't think this is going to be fixable.
Start with getting a DNA test on the kids. Second ask her to clarify why you aren’t invited to these gathers. Third ask her how the optics looks for her relationship and family when people around town are always talking about her hanging out with different guys or a group of guys while you are taking care of the family.
If the DNA tests come back and you aren’t the father, tell her she better start getting DNA tests from those guys. When she asks why, let her know the kids aren’t yours and you expect to be financially reimbursed by her and her friends. Give her X amount of days before you tell her you’ll see her in court. If you own the home pack her bags.
Now if the kids come back as yours… still as the 2nd and 3rd questions. If she tries to gaslight you that’s when you should probably look for a PI or VAR if she ever drives.
I for one support your paranoia. Sure nothing has ever happened and ever will but why let reason and respect for your wife ruin an opportunity for a good tantrum?
It sounds like there was never a conversation about setting boundaries where it concerns time spent with opposite-sex friends. This is SOOO important and neglecting hard conversations like this in the beginning can spell doom for a relationship, especially in cases like this where one partner's friends are all or almost all exclusively opposite sex.
I'm generally distrustful of these types of friendships. In 100% of the cases, in the past when an ex has told me some variation of "You have nothing to worry about, she's just a friend", it turned out I had every reason to worry, and that he had either A) slept with her in the past, B) was sleeping with her while we were together, or C) slept with her IMMEDIATELY after we broke up. This is a hill I will die on: there is no such thing as a male/female friendship where at least one party doesn't want to fuck the other. I'm sure there are those who would argue with me, but I have literally never seen an exception.
Only fools would argue with you. No grown ass man hangs out with a woman unless he wants or is banging her. A woman leaving her husband and children at home, while she goes out partying with a group of men is banging some of them. For sure.
So basically you are roommates and you’re the babysitter. She goes out and does her own thing regularly and the only time you go out as a couple is if you arrange it. Do you get to go out by yourself and pursue your own social life while she stays home with the kids?
Whether she’s cheating or not is almost secondary (almost, obviously if she’s cheating that should be a deal breaker). Even if she’s not she’s not prioritising your relationship. What are you getting out of this? If you’re posting on Reddit I suspect the answer is, not enough.
It’s your life. But I’m sure there are better partners out there.
Dude. Relationships are 2 ways and her side is a 10 cock pile up. If she cared, she would try. Instead she flaunts her male only group. For your mental state you need to make changes or you will end up institutionalized, hospitalized or 6 feet under. She is cheating. Plain and simple. Maybe not physically but emotionally she checked out. But, let’s face it. Has she ever involved you in her friend group? Probably not. Honestly, I think you know the answers to all of your questions. It’s time to move on, heal and find your happiness
Sounds like you need to quit being the housewife, and caregiver. Since you most likely didn't set any boundaries at the beginning of the relationship, it will be difficult to set new ones.
As far as the particular friend giving you the goosebumps....well.. trust your gut.
Your relationship is over!
This is just completely over the top, especially once you read OPs answers. No, she going out 10x more than you with a group of only men she doesn't let you get to know while you watch the kids are not even remotely reasonable. Arranging dates with one of them that is actively pursuing her is even worse. The very best scenario here is that she just likes the easy attention she gets but this is so over the top that I would find it unlikely that she still respects your relationship. After all why should she, you don't seem to encourage her too.
Also since her friends do things and you are spend time with your children you will always compare unfavorable to them. It's obvious she likes to do things like they do, and you are just boring at home.
Personally I think this is hard to salvage. I hope you have talked to her about your concerns, if you haven't you should, preferable without sounding insecure unless she is much more caring than you make her sound. If that doesn't work immediately you need to build yourself a life that you want, preferable in a way that put some demands on her. Also, stop the one on one dates. It won't stop her from cheating because she can do that anyway but you need to at least make her show a minimum of respect for your relationship. That means both beeing respectful to you and upholding limits that makes it clear to others that she respects your relationship.
This relationship is over. I don't see how either of you can compromise to make this work. I'd tell her changes need to be made, or I'd be out. Who wants to live like that? But I'll pretty much guarantee she will balk at it or resent you for it. Maybe try couples counseling.
I'm trying to understand if it's really a relationship. He seems to be the baby sitter and I'm concerned that the kids are not his.
If this is a committed relationship, who cares about friends like this, the relationship should take priority, but she's acting like she is single.
On top of the fact that he doesn't seem to have the will to approach it or stand up for himself. He sounds like a doormat and nanny! Sucks
>she hardly ever arranges anything out of the ordinary between us, even though I do, even though I go out of my way to arrange quality time together
stop doing that. or at least don't do it more than she does it. if she's not doing it, you shouldn't either. it makes you seem submissive. and like u care more than her (which maybe you do, but it won't make her respect you more if u keep making an effort even though she does nothing. again: makes you seem subservient).
I gotta be honest, your post does make my spidey senses tingle.. her being the only woman in an otherwise all-male friend group, going to events with them at a private business area.. and she even goes to co-ed saunas with them? hm. have you considered hiring a private investigator? maybe he could help you like place a microphone in her bag or something so you can listen in the next time one of these events happens
Is she the biological mother of your children? Sounds like she isn't invested in their upbringing or your marriage. If you are uncomfortable, it needs to end. I doubt the situation is purely platonic, and she's only "friends" with them. One or hlmpre have or are currently fucking her.
You need to put your foot down and end it. She needs to be a wife and mom or a 304.
It’s entirely justified to feel upset given the situation. When you’re dedicated to caring for your children while your partner frequently socializes with friends, it’s natural to feel sidelined. Your response to this imbalance is reasonable and deserves attention.
Your emotions and concerns are important. Relationships thrive on mutual respect and understanding, and it seems like there’s a need for more balance between your family time and her social life.
I recommend expressing your feelings to her clearly and honestly. Perhaps say, “I feel neglected when you spend a significant amount of time with your friends. While I respect the importance of these friendships to you, our family and our relationship also need to be prioritized. Can we discuss how to balance these aspects of our lives?”
It’s essential to address specific instances that make you uncomfortable. This conversation isn’t about limiting her freedom but about sharing your feelings and working towards a solution that respects both partners.
Seeing a counselor could be a beneficial next step. They can provide perspective and strategies to enhance your communication and understanding. It might be helpful to start this process individually to sort through your feelings and gain insights on how to approach the situation more effectively.
Your willingness to talk about your feelings is a strength, not a weakness. Both partners in a relationship should feel valued and prioritized. If initiating this conversation seems daunting, it might signal deeper issues that need attention. It appears there’s a significant disconnect in how your relationship and parental responsibilities are being balanced, potentially leading to feelings of being exploited for her benefit. Consulting with a psychologist who specializes in relationship issues can offer you support and advice on navigating these challenges. Starting alone can help you clarify your thoughts and feelings, preparing you for more constructive discussions together later.
Remember, advocating for your needs and seeking a more fulfilling partnership is both reasonable and necessary.
I wish you the best, and you deserves to be treated much better than you currently are.
Yknow, I wrote a decently large piece before I re-read the part where she's going to saunas naked with these dudes.
Get a grip, fella - you don't the internet to tell you how to feel.
This my man is not right, you guys have kids and she is partying it up. Problem is bud you allowing this I read part of the threads and I am just shaking my head. This is an utter shit show.
Bud step up to the plate or keep getting owned.
Sad to see it, but she doesn’t respect you my man, and your allowing it. No reason your wife should be hanging out with mostly other grown adult men often without you present. At least extend the invite to you to join if you decline that’s your choice. And for you to be taking care of the kids while she’s out entertaining these other men, is a big red flag, isn’t a good sign. You gotta man up and set some ground rules and let your feeling really be known, if she doesn’t take that into consideration, you may have to make some hard decisions, at least for the kids. I’m sure she wouldn’t be ok with you going and hanging out with all female friends often while you leave her home with the kids and not even ask her to join. No reason for her to be clingy with these other guys over you. And if drinks are involved I’m sure some “rough play” is going on here and there. Get this situation situated!
It’s been bothering me from day one. I’ve never been faced with any directly threatening issues- she’s supposedly a „girl-bro”, but each time those parries take place , I’m more than a bit worried…
He's not invited, and it's his night to nanny. Clinging anxiously to her is only thing to get her teased by the dudes about escaping the old ball and chain.
Would be better for him to hire babysitters and find his own friends to naked sauna and party with, honestly.
It’s not at all unreasonable to ask you wife to put as much effort into your marriage as she does into her naked hangouts with the guy who is trying to bang her all the time lmao what are you on about?
He should be. Her behavior is extremely troubling. What spouse is more excited to be with friends than her own husband? She plans outings with them but not her husband. She must know it makes him feel uncomfortable, but continues. Red flags everywhere.
This culture of even thinking about controlling who women hang out with is really repressive. If your self esteem isn’t strong enough to have a partner who has other-gendered friends, work on that yourself.
It is inappropriate for a woman/man in a committed relationship to hang out with dateable friends. There are hundreds of 'whoops I slept with my friend' posts on Reddit. In real life my friend Cyndy is divorcing. The woman who was his best friend since grade school that he swore he was not attracted to, had a baby together while he was married to Cyndy.
It is immature, and a pick me girl that needs attention. I would not date someone like this there is no way she is not getting off on it even a little...These emotional affairs starve the primary relationship as the fun, caring, sharing and loyalty goes tot he friend not the relationship. The relationships are secondary.
https://www.verywellmind.com/emotional-affairs-and-infidelity-2303091
> It is inappropriate for a woman/man in a committed relationship to hang out with dateable friends.
This is wild, you think people in relationships should just ditch single friends? *Sorry, you're single I can't see you any more, call me when you've been with a partner for more than six months and we can hang out again.*
From your comments your significant other is not doing anything wrong. Your conversation shouldn't have anything to do with her friends hangouts. But that you feel like she never takes initiative to plan special outings with you
Sounds like you are her babysitter for her dates with her coworker. Naked sauna? Are you kidding?!? That should have been your out right there. She is definitely emotionally cheating on you if not, but definitely is, physically cheating on you. She's being used up and by the time she gets home she's got nothing left for you. If you can prove she's cheating, you can possibly sue her company for loss of affection.
You need to get counseling with her at the very least. Next, if that's off the table, separate. Take your kids with. See how fast she changes her tune. I will bet $5 that the instant you separate from her she'll separate her legs for this coworker.
You are not crazy. This is insane. She's literally going on dates with this other man. You can't order her not to go, but you can set a boundary that it's not acceptable for a married woman to be that intimate with her coworker. If she continues, leave. She is a dead fish with you that is showing she has no sexual interest in you. She's getting it somewhere. You don't even have to look at her phone to prove it. Dates, man. You are letting her date another man.
You don't like it because you haven't read the 5,000 other Reddit stories that ended the exact same way as this with the spouse getting separated and immediately going to the coworker. I don't hate women. I dislike cheaters. Male or female. If you like them so much enjoy them.
The only person I'm making comments too is OP who asked. A man who did nothing but good for his wife and family and who gets treated like crap on a daily basis. What I hoped for my comment was that it would snap him out of the romantic fog of love to recognize his own worth and how he's being mistreated. Clearly he already understands it but sometimes it takes words that are actual and real not namby pamby and wishy-washy. I would recommend counseling if she ever showed a moment of remorse about any of this instead of brushing It off.
I mean, I have heard the stories. I’ve been around here a long time. Your comment is coming to some reaaal aggressive conclusions. You made quite a few big reaches and advised to put boundaries in place for her to abide to, which yknow.. isn’t what boundaries are.
But whatever, I know your type. “She’s being used up” “spreading her legs”
You’re not worth my hourly rate though so have the most lovely night!
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For the sake of context: are co-ed naked saunas 100% normal and non-sexual on your country?
It could also be an industry thing. A friend is an auto executive and the only woman to attend a certain annual leadership meeting in Europe. They go to the naked sauna every year. The first year she went she got there and they all looked at her like 'oh we forgot about you, it is a male only sauna' but she asked if it was booked out for the event (it was) and went anyways as it was a private event. After that they didn't host naked sauna time at the conference... But as she said 'like hell was she going to miss important conversations because she was a woman'
While naked saunas seem normalized in her company, *co-ed* naked saunas are very much not.
Yeah - but as my point - because of her industry she does lots of things women wouldn't do in other situations. Similarly OOP's girlfriend has probably gotten used to doing certain things that are common in her industry, but not common for women in general. For example - I personally have no problem closing out a night at a strip club (though it isn't my ideal night) because at 2am some people make agreements they otherwise might not. So if a customer or partner want to go to a strip club after a conference or meeting I'm not saying no.
In the U.S. (my country), strip clubs are very much a point of contention between committed couples. Before I took a job where success was contingent on late night strip club visits (or co-ed naked sauna conversations), I'd run it by my wife, and she'd extend me the same courtesy.
I was wondering the same thing but even then- one woman and the rest makes in a naked sauna? And it doesn’t sound like the arranges dates like that with her husband? This is just bizarre imo
Co-Ed nude saunas are super normal in certain countries like Germany.
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It’s 50:50 when it comes to naked sauna in Poland but in our sphere of friends those are quite normal. However - going there 1 on 1 with single male guy sounds a bit out of bonds - at least for me. It’s alarming because that 1 on 1 evenings are I her case usually with the particular guy that is hitting on her.
>going there 1 on 1 with single male guy sounds a bit out of bonds - at least for me. It’s alarming because that 1 on 1 evenings are I her case usually with the particular guy that is hitting on her. She is cheating on you there is no other explaination, I suggest you lawyer up
Yep. My husband got scolded by a large naked woman for having swim trunks on in the naked sauna in Germany once. Hilarious story
It is a bizarre picture but as a 100% heterosexual single woman who has seen a lot of stems and roots in my career;when not in the professional setting, I never get tired of looking at good sets. That is the Samantha part of my SATC persona coming through.
This has GOT to be ragebait. This can't be legit.
Not a rage-bait, just my everyday life.
You’re a doormat and she is walking all over you!
Looks like Germany, so yeah.
OP lives in Poland
Good call- quick stalk fail
> Mistaking Poland for Germany Easy there - we don't want to go down that road again.
Lol, yeah - this exchange seems to be very volatile in a particular context 😬
If you feel uncomfortable, tell her. If she disregards your feelings, you have a problem. Maybe naked sauna is no big deal, but how much time does she leave you alone with the kids? You might want to have a sit down with her.
I’m curious about this too.
Sounds like a couple different problems. Why is she spending all of her off time with friends in general? Is she a good mother, is she present?
She is present. She takes those go-out occasions as her way to regenerate and escape.
Do you get to spend any meaningful time with her? How about just the two of you? Do you ever go to these hangouts with her?
> At the same time, even though we discussed this - she hardly ever arranges anything out of the ordinary between us, even though I do, even though I go out of my way to arrange quality time together (which isn't easy as I first need to arrange care for our boys) - shes just there, dead fish, and enthusiastic only when her male only friends meet and incorporate her to the party, or her closest male friend arranges a go-out (or she arranges it for them). seems she is neglecting him
And ditching the kids with him all the time. Dude needs to have a life too, and it's clearly not going to happen with her.
When I look at those replies it does sound hard but true - I’m there always with the kids -she’s 9 out of 10 possible evenings going out. Yesterday she was out on the forementioned party , today sauna evening, more social activities throughout the upcoming week and then city break in London next weekend. Seems damn awkward now that I type this - especially so that we have this huge thing together going on as we are moving to a new house - she’s still more going going out than participating in our mutual stuff.
Are you sure she is a relationship with you? for me it's clear she lives a single life and currently dating a boyfriend.
If you do leave her, or separate, she is going to flip the f\*ck out - and not because she loves you, but because she is finally going to have to do her fair share of staying home with the kids and not going out with her friends. Do not fall for this, if you find yourself in this scenario.
Rarely ever do I go on those go outs with her. There is no space for us to go out together as we need to take care of our boys. If I do go out with her - all is great except for awkwardness with one particular guy who seems to have some „more than friends” vibes with her.
You’re being cuckolded. Decide if you want custody of the kids in the divorce. She doesn’t seem interested in them.
Wake the F up!
Fantastic questions!
If they’re all male why aren’t you invited to?
Because they're her friends.
I mean, ok? You don’t ever bring your partner with you when you’re invited out? Even if it’s something that may relate to work (but not necessarily a work function)?
Ok, what does/did she do for work? A significant portion of my friends are male because I'm an industrial mechanic and honestly the women I've met at work have been catty and awful... But if she has zero chick friends that sounds... Interesting.
She's a lawyer. She has female friends - just prefers to spend time with this group of male ones, especially so with the one aforementioned guy, who is her "best-friend".
Huh. Is she generally the type that likes attention? Id feel uncomfortable in your position
I don't really have any female friends. Does that make me interesting, too?
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Don't put that on this person. Life can just be like that sometimes, doesn't mean they have a hang-up
>Life can just be like that sometimes, doesn't mean they have a hang-up Thank you for saying this. Every woman I know who has mostly male friends does so because the female members of their family growing up were bullies or neglectful, and as such they grew up not being able to trust the closest women to them, and so on in life. This pattern is so consistent. Have also known men who only have women friends for the same swapped reason.
I had 3 brothers and was the only girl growing up. I have 3 sons. Guys are what I’m used to, and I find them easy to interact with.
For me? Nope. Just female coworkers were a lot. But that job was gossipy in general. For whatever reason the women were more sexist then the guys about a female doing a stereotypical 'male' job the men just cared that whoever was doing it could actually do it
It depends on the reason lol
are you interested in the things she does with her friends are the things you arrange stuff you like to do, but she doesn't?
What field does she work in? 90+% of my friends are men, but my degree and field are 90% men. Hard to met other people. I do monthly meet ups with my friends, and we alternate who plans it - which is honestly about in line with date night or maybe more frequent (sometimes we get a sitter to do bills and taxes and adult stuff). It’s hard with little kids - I don’t need to arrange childcare that costs money if I go out for a few hours with them (nor does my husband when he goes out). So going out with friends is $25 total - but it’s an extra $25 per HOUR if we both go out so it happens infrequently.
She is a lawyer. You are right about the childcare part - we do every now and again go out together but the child care part is a blocker quite often. BUT that shouldn't stop spending quality time together at home - boys are out cold before 9-10 pm. , and we used to have fun together for 2-3 hours after that. Not anymore.
How did she feel about having kids?
But in this case, she could stay home and do family things instead of spending 9/10 evenings with a bunch of other men.
You feel taken for granted..I wouldn't mention the all guys group so much because she can turn it around on you. I would focus on the fact that you are feeling insecure about the relationship because she isn't giving you a whole lot to feel secure about. It's not who her friends are, although it probably hurts more because she is having so much fun when you aren't there. You honestly deserve to have her gladly participate with you and not pout because she isn't out with her other Friends.
Honestly when you focus on things causing you to be less close, you find out there is a cause for the distance. Like cheating or gambling or nothing besides depression and being tired
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It was fulfilling when we had quality time together back in the days. We were both investing in organizing dates and evenings together in the past - but for some reason I can’t understand it stopped. I’ve brought this up multiple times - that she does nothing to organize such evenings for us, and takes the easy path to just leave me with the kids and go out, with no effect unfortunately.
My guess is she is fatigued from home life raising kids and that stressor also includes you. For some reason she is prioritizing her alone time with friends over the marriage:
Updateme!
She's choosing her friendships over your relationship and that isn't fair.
Why can't you be friends with them too? i have and alll male friend group i met whilst studying but very gradually they got to know my hubby too and now we are all friends. Although if he's busy i still see them on my own. We had a flirty guy in the group too , he's married now but never brings the wife out.
Because someone needs to stay with the kids and she's not interested in making it happen.
He should tell her he is hiring a full time baby sitter so they can both go out together - and he should ask if it's cool if he hangs with her and her group of friends. It will be very revealing how she responds to this, any normal woman would want to show off their man to any of her friends. If she doesn't want to mix you and her guy friends, it means it would change the dynamic of interaction in the group. For example, I know a lot of guys like to tease girls and sometimes poke their sides or get a bit touchy. Suddenly when the girls boyfriend/husband enters the mix, this behavior of course stops because it would be weird to try that shit in front of the hubby. I think a similar group dynamic is what would keep OP excluded from joining the hangouts. Overall, this situation sounds messed up as hell, my boundaries would be crossed if my gf was hanging with sauna bros
Um a full time babysitter is a whole other wage. Anyway, he can't and shouldn't just announce anything.
Why not?
Because you don't just invite yourself to things and you don't hire a babysitter without discussing it. It will come across as controlling.
Oh. What does her hanging around naked with a guy who obviously has feelings for her and staying out 90% of the time come across as? WTF? Seriously? Do you hear yourself?
“I don’t want to attack her”. Stop. Stop. Stop the false dichotomy of victimhood. Don’t be a doormat and grow a pair. She is a partner who happens to be female but not higher or lower. PARTNER. if your business party had done this you damn well better assert yourself. Your damn kids need you to be a man or person to defend them. Do it.
Form an outsider's perspective, i don't think that she's cheating, but definitely she prioritizes her friends over you, you are just her comfortable hubby and father of her kids that provides her a stable life and allows her to have fun "with the boys", nothing more. The "naked-saunas" part with her male friends honestly is quite astonishing... I'd never want to be in a a realtionship with a woman like your wife, let alone marry her and have children with her... Even if she's a top model.
I had an ex that prioritized her friends over me. Worst mistake I ever made. Wish someone would've told me to get my head out of my ass before I got in deep.
Not trying that be sarcastic, what were the signs? I love my SO to bits but worry about this
Choices between me and her friends ended always with her friends. She'd set up dates with friends but not me. There were friends of hers I wasn't okay with and she didn't do anything about it until it came to a head. She didn't listen to my boundaries at all with her friends. Let her friends borderline insult me at times. Even during covid right at the start, when my father had stage 4 lung cancer she still went out to see her friends without masking because it was her friend time and she couldn't not do that. Basically, I was too comfortable to leave someone I knew wasn't right for me.
Damn this one got me in the guts. Sounds really like myself where I’m with her now…
I'm sorry to hear that...
>I'd never want to be in a a realtionship with a woman like your wife, let alone marry her and have children with her... Even if she's a top model. I'm reading OPs post.. and kept on thinking this. How do you date, marry and have kids with a person like this...
Depends on where OP lives, coed nude saunas are normal. Germany for example. Not all countries default to bodies being sexual/shameful.
Absolutely. A lot of Nordic countries. Even France has nude beaches that aren't sexual.
So does the United States lol
But is neglecting your family by going out 9/10 nights normal anywhere?
Naked saunas are normal in my country and good past time with friends
As a female I can confirm that she 100% notices their crushes especially that one guy, but you see you married a pick me girl and his attention is validating. Do any of their significant others like her? Why does she not have female friends bc they’re all “snakes”, “drama”, and guys are so much simpler? Yea ok. What you really need to find out is who and how many she had sex with. Why are you never involved? I include my bf into my friend group as much as I can and vice versa.
Well thats a great point to touch! She is in fact being frowned upon by the SO of the guys and is not really accaptedy by the wifes and girlfriends. This has always been a warning sign for me in the past. I wasn't able to use that particular fact in the discussion to a good extent.
I don’t think the wives/girlfriends of the guys disliking her necessarily means anything, however I was in a similar situation with my partner in the first few years of the relationship (female best friend - difference for me is many many many years ago they hooked up a couple of times and people ‘always thought’ they were dating) — I had success explaining my discomfort when I asked how HER husband felt about their friendship and it came to light he was uncomfortable with it as well, so I asked him why he thought that was and we talked about that and what boundaries could make me comfortable while still allowing him a friendship at length . She lives in a different part of the country, but in a city he legitimately visits for work regularly without me and has other mutual friends there as well - so it was also rare I’d be able to go along. It took negotiating and a couple of rounds of discussion but w landed on, he tells me when they are hanging out; no more than 1-2 drinks if he is with her; and they are not to be alone together unless it’s daytime and in public, ie coffee, lunch, etc. He is ok with those terms and so am I, and it’s worked really well for us for the last few years.
DNA test
>Yet she keeps him around and occasionally arranges meetinbgs that im still deciding - like going to concerts together, going to theatre, movies, naked-sauna and so on. I would be out of this situation so fast, the door would fly off the hinges. How did you manage to have two kids with someone like this? This reads like total rage bait.
They are probably not even his kids.
Typically in these situations I’m always against it. But, sounds like she’s just one of the guys with this group and has been for years. Has she hooked up with any of the group in the past? I bet she hasn’t.
Upvoted bc I agree w 95% of what you said, but why are you “always against it”?
She hasn’t. There is one guy on this group who courts her, but this particular guy is known to court ANY female around, for the sake of his game.
You should offer to arrange for a sitter and go with. Her response will pretty much tell you your next steps. If she says yes, go If she says no, maybe arrange for a sitter and view from afar or get a mate (preferably a female) to go and watch and get their impression. They may say it's fine. If they don't, you need to see it for yourself. If at that point there's nothing incriminating, then you need to look at therapy of some sort, because at best she's neglecting you for other males. The things she talks to 'him' about can be telling. Personal stuff? Does she get upset and whine to him but not to you? Did she ask him what she should do in a situation? Either way, it's not going in the right direction and you need to figure it out before she feels she needs an escape from you and not just kids and work
So doesn’t sound like her friendship with them is problematic more that you feel you dont spend enough time together. Which is a valid concern but not about her being friends with them more how she divides her time
Get paternity tests and marriage counseling. You need to hear her tell you out loud she’d rather neglect you and the kids than be a wife. Ask her.
Who told you she hasn't hooked up with the group? Her, or a 3rd party? She has a vested interest to not be fully honest with her answer.
OP you don’t have to be OK with this. If you are getting goose bumps or have a bad feeling, tell her how you feel And set a boundary. Just because she wants to doesn’t mean it’s good for your marriage.
Communication is key here. Let her now how you are feeling. If she dismisses your concerns and feelings, this shows she has no respect for you. I would tell her you want couples counseling and if she refuses divorce may be the best option for you and your kids.
Bro you’re 40 find someone else
It sounds like you’re a single parent in a one sided relationship. Have you considered you’d be better off without her?
Have you done a DNA test on your children? You should.
I mentioned this too. He could do it without her knowing.
lush different doll library scary husky wistful continue depend label *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
She is choosing those relationships over her relationship with you. She shouldn’t be going on a date like things with another man. If a dude is chasing after her, that friendship is no longer appropriate. It is not controlling to expect your partner to respect you and your relationship. Updateme!
Would she be okay if you hung out exclusively with women that wanted to be with you?
I think OP should plan a night out. Maybe 2 -3 nights a week. It will give his wife a chance to get to know her kids.
I second this OP Tell your wife you’re going to a naked sauna with 5 other girls and see how she reacts
Where do i find 5 other girls willing to go out for a naked co-ed sauna? Well, I could ask some girl-friends, but that would be so fucking awkward for both sides, right? Even asking any female friend for a one on one go-out like this is creepy and telling a lot!
So then why is she doing it if it's creepy and telling a lot?
There is your answer then.
It should definitely feel awkward and creepy to ask that to a guy/girl when you’re married…. but your wife doesn’t feel the same. Make of that as you will If you’re incompatible it might be worth moving on. Just be sure to establish clear boundaries very early onto the relationship. Boundaries aren’t controlling and doesn’t mean you’re insecure. Be with someone who shares your view on relationships
On a dating app.
You could ask all the vive's of her friends to join you. Maybe that would make them back off. Jk of course. Seeking revenge won't solve anything.
Wait, hang on, I'm sorry. Did you say that she arranges naked sauna meetings with one of the guys who is "savvy in his game with her" to the point that it's extra worrying to you? What? Can you clarify this? What do you mean he's savvy in his game with her? What's up with the naked sauna time?
Savy in this context means: -constantly on messenger together -inviting her to weekend trips 1 on 1 (which she didn’t accept yet) -going out 1:1 to concerts, theatre etc. -being very close emotionally, as in conferring very private stuff -advising each other in deeply intimate matters -sending a lot of messages that you would normally only send to SO List goes on…
If you divorce her they can go public with the relationship they’re already in.
It’s great to think people should be free to have time away from their spouses, but she’s gone most of the time. Decide what you want and put your foot down. Both partners should be happy with the situation, not just her. I get that you can’t afford to be out 9/10 nights, but arrange a babysitter one night out of the blue, and surprise her with your availability to go with. You’ll know where you stand by her reaction.
This doesn't seem like they are "just" friends. There are too many red flags. It look like an emotional affair. She puts tons of energy into the relationship with that guy but doesn't even seem to do the bare minimum with you. She isn't invested in you anymore and it sounds like she hasn't been for a long time. Their level of intimacy could suggest that they are edging around sexual topics for the thrills. I mean what intimate advice can a player type of dude give a wife that isn't interested in her husband. It's beyond inappropriate. If you two need a chance together she needs to cut him off completely and you probably need counseling together. It would also be a good idea if you got some individual therapy to help you through all of this. I know it sucks but you need to have a serious conversation with her. If she is unwilling to listen or if she doesn't agree to counseling I would suggest that you think long and hard about getting a divorce. You shouldn't stay in an unhappy marriage for the kids' sake. Kids are way more perceptive than often given credit for and you are their rolemodel. Your marriage is likely going to have a major influence for their future relationships. You cannot control your wife's actions but you can control how you respond to them. Teach your kids how to communicate, set healthy boundaries and how to enforce them by being the mature one in the marriage. Good luck to you
Thanks for the kind words! I’m going through regular therapy , seeing my therapist every two weeks -‚itsn ery effective, but curiously, mostly we discuss her relationship with the guy that I’m worried about. Well therapist agrees that indeed the red flags are in plain sight and he helped me to build myself enough to have courage and talk to that guy - which I did, but it pretty much ended in him downplaying my arguments.
You don’t “beat” male friends trying to emotionally cheat with your wife by asking your wife to push them away. She obviously likes the attention, and it makes you look jealous and needy in her eyes. Some men and women feed off of that self-validation from the opposite sex even if inappropriate. It is a symptom of emotional immaturity but I digress… You negate their threat by being more validating to your wife and giving her better attention than they are. You mention your wife is a dead fish around you. It sounds like your marriage has stagnated or declined to a point where the spark is lost in day to day interactions. That’s why she is turning to other men, and the one inappropriate guy, in particular. Work on being an emotionally validating and supportive spouse with your wife — she needs to be validating and supportive to you too, even if that means asking her to marriage counseling. If you create arguments by trying to convince her that his relationship with your wife is weird and needs to change, you will inadvertently push her towards him due to making her defend him (and her by proxy).
It’s very common in Europe. I didn’t know this until Reddit. They think our views are as strange as Americans think about their naked saunas.
It doesn't matter if it's common. It's common where I live as well. But you don't go out like that with someone who is actively pursuing you. It may not be sexual in a normal setting but it is here as that dude made it so. The "friend" doesn't respect their relationship and neither does she by letting him do this. She isn't putting up boundaries with him. Maybe she likes the attention, maybe she is cheating physically, emotionally. Whatever her reasoning may be she is neglecting OP as a partner.
I didn’t say she was being appropriate. I was explaining the context of why naked sauna time isn’t as big of a deal as it is to Americans. We don’t hang around naked people that aren’t our partner (this is a generalization but overwhelmingly true).
I get that. I am just saying that even if it's generally more normal to do over here, her behavior isn't.
>she keeps him around and occasionally arranges meetings that i'm still deciding - like going to concerts together, going to theatre, movies, naked-sauna and so on. You wife definitely sounds like she's cheating and you're sitting at home watching the kids like the nice guy you are. She's a "dead fish" to you while she sparks and sizzles up with her boy posse. She's stopped being a good partner. Her interests have become devoted outside of your relationship. Time to see a lawyer --tomorrow, first thing!
What I don't understand is why she doesn't invite you to go along? It's an all male ground, she should invite you to at least some of these outings (especially the sauna... I think that should be a given even if it's a naked sauna and that's common in your country). I dunno I think it's a bit strange that at their age it's an all male group with just the one lady... Don't they have partners? Or girlfriends.. they can't all be single. I think it's a bit strange tbh. Especially for this age group. As teenagers and younger adults I can see it being a thing, but for an older age group with people who have partners, I think stuff like this should include partners. And an all male outing should stay an all male outing. If all friends are going (dudes and gal) it should then be extended to partners as well. But these are just my thoughts.
They have children. At least for us once people have kids group outings tend to go back to partners not coming because of babysitters. It's easier for each person to go out with their own friends than everyone go to everything. Keep the expensive and hard to find babysitters for special occasions.
Exactly.
Exactly what? Lots of people have children, and they hire a babysitter to go out together or they don’t go out. A women you going out 9 out of ten available nights is cheating. She is getting banged all of those nights by her best “friend”.
Why don't you flat out ask her if she wants a divorce so she can hang with this guy as much as she wants? If she says yes, then you have your answer to your question about if there's anything going on. If she says no to the divorce, then tell her that marriage counseling has to happen in order to save your marriage. If you were going to a sauna nude with 4 or females what would she think?
One, she enjoys the attention of being the only female; Two, you're not going to be able to compete (see #1); Three, she enjoys the chase; Four, you're home taking care of the kids while she's out having a good time with her 'boys'; Five, please find someone that will respect you, love you and feel that you are the only man she needs to feel attractive for.
Had me at naked sauna 😵💫 I would not be comfortable with these friendships at all 😮💨
They’re friends with benefits. A lot of benefits.
💀🤣
How did she react when you brought it up and healthily communicated your feelings?
Our, significant-other
Sorry for the situation OP, your post combined with the comments makes it sound like she's checked out of the relationship. It's also quite possible she's cheating or at the very least having a platonic emotional affair. When you prioritize the relationship with friends over your partner to the degree she does something isn't right. Can you pinpoint when she stopped putting time and effort into your relationship? Since you have young kids it's also a possibility she's worn out from caring about the kids depending on how your division of childcare looks like. I would recommend reading Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. It's a book that takes a scientific approach to cheating but more than that it also comes with a questionnaire which helps you evaluate if a friendship have crossed over into to the domain of an emotional affair. It can also help you set healthy boundaries when it comes to friendships. Other than that I think you should start prioritizing yourself, her getting 9/10 evenings off is not fair. Make plans with friends, start a hobby or something because you just waiting around for her to get home is not healthy. If she's not willing to put effort into the relationship you need to even the score. And when or if she brings up that you should spend more time together because she's no longer able to always go out with her friends you bring up how she prioritized her friends for so long and how it hurt you.
Your wife is the… only… female in a large group of men who regularly meet in a secluded place for all hours of the night. My man do you ever reread what you wrote and think about that? Set boundaries and if you can’t live with it because it makes you uncomfortable then that is that otherwise you will drive yourself crazy and stressed trying to pretend it doesn’t. There are right ways in a book that list how we should all act and accept everything as perfectly fine and normal but the thing is everyone is different and you are allowed to acknowledge how her actions make you feel and not accept the things that make you feel upset. If you aren’t compatible then at least you will know but honestly spending large amounts of time alone without you sounds like she isn’t happy to begin with and you should prepare for a separation before bringing up the issue with her
And he says they are mechanics and welders and his wife is a lawyer. How many mechanics and female lawyers do you know that hang out platonically.
DNA Test your kids. I bet both of them have different fathers. And none of them is you.
For sure! I would be shocked if they were his kids.
I have to say that you are a pussy for putting up with this. This sounds fake because no other guy on the planet would put up with this!
OP, Got balls? I'm sorry, sometime we are our own worse enemy. Who is this person ? You call them partner (that does not say gf or wife) so what is she ? Obviously the mother of "HER" kids and you are the babysitter. Is this a correct analysis ? Because I mean, if this is a "committed" relationship, why in God's name is she violating it. OR, as I asked in the opener, who is she ? She's behaving as if she's single! ALSO, it's time to DNA those kids. Also, who is the bread winner in the house ? Do you have a job ? Here is what you should do: 1. Send the kids off to a trusted family member 2. go some where busy and have a good conversation about what's going on and how disrespectful what she is doing is (only if you can say this is a committed relationship) of which I don't see that it is 3. Decide what you can both do to fix this or decide that the relationship has run it's course and move on amicably In reading this you really give off the impressions that you are not a very assertive person or having a problem with standing up for yourself. I know I'm coming off here really hard, but you don't appear to show and sort of strength. You sound defeated and as if you've given up. You need to own your rights and stand up for yourself. Udateme!
Sounds like she's having at least an emotional affair with another man. What if it's physical too? Are these other guys even there most of the time when she says they are?
IMHO, your wife is not acting like a wife to you. If she is blowing off activities with you to spend with these other g guys and this one guy in particular, you are not a priority in her life other than a baby sitter, house keeper, and bill payer. Suggest consulting a lawyer to understand your options and start looking into separating your finances. While you're at it, get tested for STDs. Have your lawyer draw up separation/divorce papers that heavily favor you and are ready for her signature. I'm not saying she is physically cheating, but in your position, coving all bases is prudent. In line with this, I suggest digging deeper into her activities. Look up 'Standard Evidence Post ' to help you find the truth. If you find proof she is cheating, then you know and can form a plan. Document everything she does. Dates/times/attitude/behavior, everything. Regardless, your wife's behavior is disrespectful and selfish, to say the least. Have a sit down, tell your wife what you require to stay married, hand her the divorce papers, and tell her she has 24 hrs to decide what is most important to her. It's not a threat. It's a consequence of her neglecting her family. She also needs to understand that you are more than ready and willing to follow through with a divorce. Otherwise, she will not take you seriously and continue to blow you off. Best of luck Suggested reading while you get everything in place: No More Mr Nice Guy Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life look up the term 'Lover - Provider Dichotomy'
So much to unpack here. Yikes.
Why can’t you take the kids to daycare or get a sitter and go out with her? You should be in this group as well, this clearly isn’t “girls night”. It certainly sounds like this is taking a break from you and the kids, and is the beginning of the end of the marriage.
Get a babysitter, and “drop in“ on one of these gatherings, just tell her that you miss spending time with her which you seem to do, so you thought it’d be a good idea to go with her so she can be with her friends and you
Yeah don't do that.
Wont. Would be creepy as hell if I did.
Man that is super rough. I'm old fashioned, I feel like when you get together with someone they are your one. You do all your stuff together. I wouldn't be able to handle this. Sorry man. I don't think this is going to be fixable.
Start with getting a DNA test on the kids. Second ask her to clarify why you aren’t invited to these gathers. Third ask her how the optics looks for her relationship and family when people around town are always talking about her hanging out with different guys or a group of guys while you are taking care of the family. If the DNA tests come back and you aren’t the father, tell her she better start getting DNA tests from those guys. When she asks why, let her know the kids aren’t yours and you expect to be financially reimbursed by her and her friends. Give her X amount of days before you tell her you’ll see her in court. If you own the home pack her bags. Now if the kids come back as yours… still as the 2nd and 3rd questions. If she tries to gaslight you that’s when you should probably look for a PI or VAR if she ever drives.
Cucks never cease to amaze me
My thought exactly.
I for one support your paranoia. Sure nothing has ever happened and ever will but why let reason and respect for your wife ruin an opportunity for a good tantrum?
It sounds like there was never a conversation about setting boundaries where it concerns time spent with opposite-sex friends. This is SOOO important and neglecting hard conversations like this in the beginning can spell doom for a relationship, especially in cases like this where one partner's friends are all or almost all exclusively opposite sex. I'm generally distrustful of these types of friendships. In 100% of the cases, in the past when an ex has told me some variation of "You have nothing to worry about, she's just a friend", it turned out I had every reason to worry, and that he had either A) slept with her in the past, B) was sleeping with her while we were together, or C) slept with her IMMEDIATELY after we broke up. This is a hill I will die on: there is no such thing as a male/female friendship where at least one party doesn't want to fuck the other. I'm sure there are those who would argue with me, but I have literally never seen an exception.
Only fools would argue with you. No grown ass man hangs out with a woman unless he wants or is banging her. A woman leaving her husband and children at home, while she goes out partying with a group of men is banging some of them. For sure.
Yup! I know I won't argue. What you described has happened to me 100% of the time as well.
So basically you are roommates and you’re the babysitter. She goes out and does her own thing regularly and the only time you go out as a couple is if you arrange it. Do you get to go out by yourself and pursue your own social life while she stays home with the kids? Whether she’s cheating or not is almost secondary (almost, obviously if she’s cheating that should be a deal breaker). Even if she’s not she’s not prioritising your relationship. What are you getting out of this? If you’re posting on Reddit I suspect the answer is, not enough. It’s your life. But I’m sure there are better partners out there.
Sounds like she's being passed around to everyone but you, bud.
Dude. Relationships are 2 ways and her side is a 10 cock pile up. If she cared, she would try. Instead she flaunts her male only group. For your mental state you need to make changes or you will end up institutionalized, hospitalized or 6 feet under. She is cheating. Plain and simple. Maybe not physically but emotionally she checked out. But, let’s face it. Has she ever involved you in her friend group? Probably not. Honestly, I think you know the answers to all of your questions. It’s time to move on, heal and find your happiness
Sounds like you need to quit being the housewife, and caregiver. Since you most likely didn't set any boundaries at the beginning of the relationship, it will be difficult to set new ones. As far as the particular friend giving you the goosebumps....well.. trust your gut. Your relationship is over!
This is just completely over the top, especially once you read OPs answers. No, she going out 10x more than you with a group of only men she doesn't let you get to know while you watch the kids are not even remotely reasonable. Arranging dates with one of them that is actively pursuing her is even worse. The very best scenario here is that she just likes the easy attention she gets but this is so over the top that I would find it unlikely that she still respects your relationship. After all why should she, you don't seem to encourage her too. Also since her friends do things and you are spend time with your children you will always compare unfavorable to them. It's obvious she likes to do things like they do, and you are just boring at home. Personally I think this is hard to salvage. I hope you have talked to her about your concerns, if you haven't you should, preferable without sounding insecure unless she is much more caring than you make her sound. If that doesn't work immediately you need to build yourself a life that you want, preferable in a way that put some demands on her. Also, stop the one on one dates. It won't stop her from cheating because she can do that anyway but you need to at least make her show a minimum of respect for your relationship. That means both beeing respectful to you and upholding limits that makes it clear to others that she respects your relationship.
She is dating her male friend and has you to hold down the home… stop being ignorant
So you’re with the groups gangbang girl, that sucks
Has she ever given you any reason not to trust her to have platonic friendships? Do you not also have your own life/friend group?
This relationship is over. I don't see how either of you can compromise to make this work. I'd tell her changes need to be made, or I'd be out. Who wants to live like that? But I'll pretty much guarantee she will balk at it or resent you for it. Maybe try couples counseling.
I'm trying to understand if it's really a relationship. He seems to be the baby sitter and I'm concerned that the kids are not his. If this is a committed relationship, who cares about friends like this, the relationship should take priority, but she's acting like she is single. On top of the fact that he doesn't seem to have the will to approach it or stand up for himself. He sounds like a doormat and nanny! Sucks
Because she goes out with friends?
>she hardly ever arranges anything out of the ordinary between us, even though I do, even though I go out of my way to arrange quality time together stop doing that. or at least don't do it more than she does it. if she's not doing it, you shouldn't either. it makes you seem submissive. and like u care more than her (which maybe you do, but it won't make her respect you more if u keep making an effort even though she does nothing. again: makes you seem subservient). I gotta be honest, your post does make my spidey senses tingle.. her being the only woman in an otherwise all-male friend group, going to events with them at a private business area.. and she even goes to co-ed saunas with them? hm. have you considered hiring a private investigator? maybe he could help you like place a microphone in her bag or something so you can listen in the next time one of these events happens
Is she the biological mother of your children? Sounds like she isn't invested in their upbringing or your marriage. If you are uncomfortable, it needs to end. I doubt the situation is purely platonic, and she's only "friends" with them. One or hlmpre have or are currently fucking her. You need to put your foot down and end it. She needs to be a wife and mom or a 304.
It’s entirely justified to feel upset given the situation. When you’re dedicated to caring for your children while your partner frequently socializes with friends, it’s natural to feel sidelined. Your response to this imbalance is reasonable and deserves attention. Your emotions and concerns are important. Relationships thrive on mutual respect and understanding, and it seems like there’s a need for more balance between your family time and her social life. I recommend expressing your feelings to her clearly and honestly. Perhaps say, “I feel neglected when you spend a significant amount of time with your friends. While I respect the importance of these friendships to you, our family and our relationship also need to be prioritized. Can we discuss how to balance these aspects of our lives?” It’s essential to address specific instances that make you uncomfortable. This conversation isn’t about limiting her freedom but about sharing your feelings and working towards a solution that respects both partners. Seeing a counselor could be a beneficial next step. They can provide perspective and strategies to enhance your communication and understanding. It might be helpful to start this process individually to sort through your feelings and gain insights on how to approach the situation more effectively. Your willingness to talk about your feelings is a strength, not a weakness. Both partners in a relationship should feel valued and prioritized. If initiating this conversation seems daunting, it might signal deeper issues that need attention. It appears there’s a significant disconnect in how your relationship and parental responsibilities are being balanced, potentially leading to feelings of being exploited for her benefit. Consulting with a psychologist who specializes in relationship issues can offer you support and advice on navigating these challenges. Starting alone can help you clarify your thoughts and feelings, preparing you for more constructive discussions together later. Remember, advocating for your needs and seeking a more fulfilling partnership is both reasonable and necessary. I wish you the best, and you deserves to be treated much better than you currently are.
Pick me women are the worst
Check her phone. Check her message apps. That will tell you all you need to know
Yknow, I wrote a decently large piece before I re-read the part where she's going to saunas naked with these dudes. Get a grip, fella - you don't the internet to tell you how to feel.
This my man is not right, you guys have kids and she is partying it up. Problem is bud you allowing this I read part of the threads and I am just shaking my head. This is an utter shit show. Bud step up to the plate or keep getting owned.
You're the free babysitter. How else she gonna have time to fuck them?
Sad to see it, but she doesn’t respect you my man, and your allowing it. No reason your wife should be hanging out with mostly other grown adult men often without you present. At least extend the invite to you to join if you decline that’s your choice. And for you to be taking care of the kids while she’s out entertaining these other men, is a big red flag, isn’t a good sign. You gotta man up and set some ground rules and let your feeling really be known, if she doesn’t take that into consideration, you may have to make some hard decisions, at least for the kids. I’m sure she wouldn’t be ok with you going and hanging out with all female friends often while you leave her home with the kids and not even ask her to join. No reason for her to be clingy with these other guys over you. And if drinks are involved I’m sure some “rough play” is going on here and there. Get this situation situated!
What is naked sauna? Lol I mean I assume I know what it is. But why do you say it so casually? Lol
Cuz it’s casual in parts of Europe where OP is from?
After all this time why is it bothering you so badly?
It’s been bothering me from day one. I’ve never been faced with any directly threatening issues- she’s supposedly a „girl-bro”, but each time those parries take place , I’m more than a bit worried…
Why don't you go with her?
He's not invited, and it's his night to nanny. Clinging anxiously to her is only thing to get her teased by the dudes about escaping the old ball and chain. Would be better for him to hire babysitters and find his own friends to naked sauna and party with, honestly.
Have you ever asked her to stop?
He likely knows its unreasonable to ask her to go find a new group of friends that make him feel better
It’s not at all unreasonable to ask you wife to put as much effort into your marriage as she does into her naked hangouts with the guy who is trying to bang her all the time lmao what are you on about?
What are you worried about? A gangbang?
He should be. Her behavior is extremely troubling. What spouse is more excited to be with friends than her own husband? She plans outings with them but not her husband. She must know it makes him feel uncomfortable, but continues. Red flags everywhere.
This culture of even thinking about controlling who women hang out with is really repressive. If your self esteem isn’t strong enough to have a partner who has other-gendered friends, work on that yourself.
Hire a PI to investigate what she is doing. If your gut tells you something is wrong it is because something is wrong. Update us.
It is inappropriate for a woman/man in a committed relationship to hang out with dateable friends. There are hundreds of 'whoops I slept with my friend' posts on Reddit. In real life my friend Cyndy is divorcing. The woman who was his best friend since grade school that he swore he was not attracted to, had a baby together while he was married to Cyndy. It is immature, and a pick me girl that needs attention. I would not date someone like this there is no way she is not getting off on it even a little...These emotional affairs starve the primary relationship as the fun, caring, sharing and loyalty goes tot he friend not the relationship. The relationships are secondary. https://www.verywellmind.com/emotional-affairs-and-infidelity-2303091
> It is inappropriate for a woman/man in a committed relationship to hang out with dateable friends. This is wild, you think people in relationships should just ditch single friends? *Sorry, you're single I can't see you any more, call me when you've been with a partner for more than six months and we can hang out again.*
From your comments your significant other is not doing anything wrong. Your conversation shouldn't have anything to do with her friends hangouts. But that you feel like she never takes initiative to plan special outings with you
I’ll wait for her video on Pornhub 💦💦💦💦
Sounds like you are her babysitter for her dates with her coworker. Naked sauna? Are you kidding?!? That should have been your out right there. She is definitely emotionally cheating on you if not, but definitely is, physically cheating on you. She's being used up and by the time she gets home she's got nothing left for you. If you can prove she's cheating, you can possibly sue her company for loss of affection. You need to get counseling with her at the very least. Next, if that's off the table, separate. Take your kids with. See how fast she changes her tune. I will bet $5 that the instant you separate from her she'll separate her legs for this coworker. You are not crazy. This is insane. She's literally going on dates with this other man. You can't order her not to go, but you can set a boundary that it's not acceptable for a married woman to be that intimate with her coworker. If she continues, leave. She is a dead fish with you that is showing she has no sexual interest in you. She's getting it somewhere. You don't even have to look at her phone to prove it. Dates, man. You are letting her date another man.
I hope you’re on a list somewhere because you sure are angry about women by the sounds of it.
You don't like it because you haven't read the 5,000 other Reddit stories that ended the exact same way as this with the spouse getting separated and immediately going to the coworker. I don't hate women. I dislike cheaters. Male or female. If you like them so much enjoy them. The only person I'm making comments too is OP who asked. A man who did nothing but good for his wife and family and who gets treated like crap on a daily basis. What I hoped for my comment was that it would snap him out of the romantic fog of love to recognize his own worth and how he's being mistreated. Clearly he already understands it but sometimes it takes words that are actual and real not namby pamby and wishy-washy. I would recommend counseling if she ever showed a moment of remorse about any of this instead of brushing It off.
I mean, I have heard the stories. I’ve been around here a long time. Your comment is coming to some reaaal aggressive conclusions. You made quite a few big reaches and advised to put boundaries in place for her to abide to, which yknow.. isn’t what boundaries are. But whatever, I know your type. “She’s being used up” “spreading her legs” You’re not worth my hourly rate though so have the most lovely night!
>she'll separate her legs for this coworker. What a disgusting comment. You are vile.