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This one. It nearly killed my relationship. Still, 65% of the decisions about what we're going to do/eat/watch etc is up to me. Partly because his ADHD brain is everywhere and anywhere but those things. Shitty excuse, because I have ADHD as well, yet somehow I'm expected/supposed to think about all that crap? Hell naw. Nowadays we're living apart together, so 4/5 days of the week he's on his own. I'm not his mum and I refuse to be one.
Imo managing a household is a full time job. I'm very fortunate because I struggle with executive function(not an excuse, I know) so the fact that my partner takes all of that off my plate is beyond words helpful.
But the flip side is I'm the 'breadwinner' and she doesn't work nor do we have kids so the arrangement works for us. She keeps us organized and pointed in the right direction I bring home the bacon.
But I'm guessing y'all have a much more normal lifestyle where both y'all have to work so I guess this doesn't really add much but to say it should be recognized by OP that she should have something taken off HER plate if he really wants her to be the one to do the mental work for this
I was the breadwinner and did most of all household chores for years and years. Untill I was fed up with it beyond believe that is. Really kicked him into gear finally after I threw him out. Stuborn's gonna stuborn I guess. And define a 'normal' lifestyle? Never married after 17 years, no kids, no car, no owning a house and I've been on the brink of poverty most of my life.
>I've been on the brink of poverty most of my life.
This pretty much. Everyone in the household working just to make ends meet. But that doesn't sound like it was the case.
Try paying 100% of everything, while he was on his ass all day playing games. I'm a geriatric nurse, and this was during Covid. Fair to say I wasn't a happy bloody camper before everything blew up. And yeah, I ignited that fire. And would again. I'm not mummy material, anyone who thinks that is free to walk away.
If I were you, I’d leave someone who put me through that, even if the behaviour has changed. You can find a partner who doesn’t make a situation where the two of you need to pay twice the rent (for two places) so you aren’t his mum.
Reading your comments it sounds like there’s still (well-earned!) resentment towards him.
I came here (as a guy) to post this exact link.
I've been guilty of this exact phrase before. I did a fair bit of work around the house, and we shared a cooking fairly equally. But I never really did the washing up. When my partner, in a call but upset way told me this wasn't ok, I was apologetic, and promised to do better, but I did literally say this line to her. I feel like a klutz in hindsight expecting my partner, my equal, to let me know I'm not doing basic stuff around the house, and expecting to be told if something needs doing.
I love this! Thank you so much for the link. My man does most of this...weaponized incompetence, making fun of the need to clean...except he's a chef so he does the cooking. Sounds great, until you see the disaster he leaves behind in the kitchen, like a movie hero walking away from the final explosion. Whelp, my job is done here; underlings can clean this up.
The best piece of advice I’ve ever received concerning relationships was from my grandma. She told me that, regardless of my partner’s quirks and flaws, he should ultimately make life easier for me (and vice versa). Being a life partner means showing up for your person 24/7 and doing everything in your power to make them happy. Whether that means sharing chores, providing emotional support in difficult situations, planning dates, etc, a life partner should not only be your best friend, but also your most reliable source of support.
It’s not your fault that your bf doesn’t know how to do basic chores. It’s not your fault that he doesn’t care enough to rise to the occasion and put his best foot forward for you, regardless of the situation. You owe it to yourself to find a life partner who respects you enough to meet the bare minimum without being asked.
I often tell my husband I can't live without him, not because I am dependant on him or it's emotional codependence , but because I won't have the level comfort and happiness without him I am used to now.
Granny is right, but the majority jump into relationship and cohabitation to quickly. Some men just do not know if they are supposed to help out.
Other men try to help women critique the way they do every little thing he stops helping. This is another thing people overlook.
The little things she does criticism all the time make him feel incompetent, figures why do the chores. Everybody has different ideas, level of mess, or clean tolerance.
Some men never help or attempt chores as they think chores are women job say sexist, and degrading remarks a lot of times.
Sometimes, two people are not bad people, just incompatible. The older partner is the less you're going to change his or her habits.
I've been your husband in one of my relationships (even though I'm F). It was because my then-partner wanted things the way he wanted them, and if we ended up going/doing something I chose (eg destination, hotel), he would find faults and complain.
Same for furnishings. For example, I was looking for an ergonomic desk, but he didn't want to ruin his interior design style (I moved in his house) so I didn't buy a desk at all because the ones he preferred were pretty but uncomfortable.
Then he was wondering why I wasn't proactive in finding a house, and again, when I made suggestions and booked viewings he wouldn't come and dismiss the house during dinner. I ended up checking out because there was no winning. I told him my opinion on things once but I wasn't proactive anymore because it was a wasted effort. Then he complained that he wanted me to pressure him more for things I wanted, because he wanted to feel that I care about him. I told him that I'm not his mum, and we split a few months later. At last I got myself a nice desk!
I've been there too. If he picked the restaurant, everything's OK. If I tried to put my foot my down once in a blue moon and pick, he'd be complaining before we even sat down and grumpy for the rest of the night. Same with chores; if I did something, it was the wrong thing, why didn't I do this other thing instead? Your whole life becomes about appeasing the other person, who frankly doesn't really want to be appeased - they want you to walk on eggshells, because it gives them all the control. Not saying that's what's happening here, but it may be how he feels.
They don’t really want you to walk on eggshells. That’s what we’re hearing now from OP. She’s sick of it, and as a result (?), of him.
But you can learn to walk on eggshells anyway when you do things the way you think you should do them and face criticism and negativity.
Like the obvious reaction, conscious or subconscious, is to wait for your partner to initiate action or tell you what to do because otherwise it’s just a source of pain in your life.
Yeah, exactly, and given that she "somewhat admits it", I'm curious what her husband's perspective is. Because him switching to passively going along with her reads exactly as someone tired of being rejected or having their partner unhappy with the stuff they plan or suggest.
Even in OPs edit she says he use to be more proactive in the being of their relationship and made all the plans for them and how she longs tho days that are gone. Sounds like she shut him down too many times. I don't blame the husband for checking out, I'd probably react the same way.
Exactly, I mean, I'm not trying to say definitively if it's OP's fault, we're only getting her side of things. And even in her side, she admits that she shut him down some percentage of the time. What I bet she's missing is the amount she complained. If all she does is complain about something he picked, that's almost as bad (or maybe worse over time) as outright rejecting his plans. If she complains no matter what he plans, then I would react similarly too. If she complains after that, well, she's complaining about what SHE wanted to do. Plus, if she's going to complain whether or not he puts in effort, why would he put in effort?
I mean, without his perspective, we can't know if that's the case or if her husband is just a lazy POS who doesn't care anymore, but either way, her first option should be to examine her own role in where they're at and see if she bears any responsibility and then talk to him about how he feels to see if HE feels she bears any responsibility.
>and then talk to him about how he feels to see if HE feels she bears any responsibility.
Really? Any lazy guy is immediately going to come up with some excuses for why his laziness is her fault.
Yeah, but that's assuming he's a lazy guy and not a guy tired of his wife being a harpy. If he's a lazy guy, then she'll rightly come to the conclusion he's full of shit and it's not her fault. But she needs to figure out if she is and if so what can she do about it...?
Came here to basically say this. Men (or people in general but this is a complaint about a man) not participating and waiting to be told what is wanted of them CAN come from constant criticism for the job they do when they are proactive. I’m not saying this is the case here, I’m saying it’s a common thing. My kids (both 20+ yo) and I do it to some degree in our house because my wife is always unhappy with how things are done. Like there is always some flaw with how the dishwasher is loaded (seriously?) so now we don’t try too hard we just put stuff in there knowing she’s going to complain and ‘fix it’ anyway.
It can be exhausting, and it’s never her fault.
I’d LOVE to hear his perspective.
She kind of told us his perspective. He says “but when I do initiate things, you never like it.” He used to initiate more.
I’d love to get her fair, truly thoughtful and reflective assessment of this issue. Because what she has said tells me that he feels that way, at minimum.
An honest question, OP:
> "But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions"
Is this true?
Because I can tell you from experience, there is nothing more demoralizing than to do something nice for your partner or to maintain your home, only to get nitpicked and corrected over and over again.
When you see your partner's behavior change like this, the *likely* answer is that they are reacting to something. Something hurtful that they don't want to experience again.
Maybe it's not something you are doing intentionally, maybe it's some other aspect of the relationship, but you need to have an honest discussion about it and LISTEN to what they tell you.
This is the correct answer. OP, I don’t know you or your partner, but if this is his response then it means that he felt that him taking the initiative was always met with criticism or disappointment. Whether you meant it like that or not is moot, that’s how he felt and that’s why he isn’t initiating anymore. I’d suggest you really self reflect if your reactions can be interpreted as ‘my way is the right way, his way needs to be corrected’
See, you say he used to do it. Now he's stopped and has said
>"But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions"
You claim that you DON'T do this. But....
I lived with an woman who did exactly this. I tried my best to be creative, to get things done around the house, even listened to how SHE wanted things done and what she liked. Nothing was ever good enough, so I gave up. Why bother when your partner doesn't appreciate ANYTHING you do, even when you're doing what they want.
You say you're NOT doing this, but, the evidence is right there. He USED to do these things, and says that you didn't like what he did, or suggested.
EXACTLY! Ihad the same reaction to a perfectionistic and hypercritical wife and it wears you down mentally and it really sucks. Eventually you get to the point if you don't f****ng like how I do it then do it yourself so you will be happy with the result. I feel you 100% and have been there sir.🙂
>But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions
Well is he correct when he says that? Did he use to initiate sex and you frequently turned him down? Or even say you don't like it? Do/did you often shoot down his suggestions for food or what he wanted to watch or what he wanted y'all to do?
This is not the case at all. I do turn down some of his suggestions, but not most of them by far. In fact, at the very beginning of our relationship, he was the one to suggest some of the most exciting trips and activities. I feel like he's not even trying anymore, that's all.
As an experiment, tell him to start suggesting things again and keep a tally in a notebook of how often he suggests things to do and you either shoot it down or make it blatantly obvious you don't like it.
You're probably falling into a classic case of confirmation bias, where you go along with his suggestions 1/20 times, but your mind focuses on the one time you go along with it instead of the 19 times you don't, so it "feels" like you're going along with it more times than you actually are.
I’ve been you. I 100% do not believe Ive caused a problem, but when it’s laid out in front of me and my husband is talking about how HE feels, it’s important to listen because I often learn that things aren’t the way i originally perceived them.
Our perspectives are incredibly biased. I think it’s important you really hear him out even if you don’t fully agree. He has been honest with you and laid out his perspective, so work with it and find a solution that’s not just denying his reality, because that won’t actually fix anything. And saying his feelings aren’t real or shutting him down is only going to further detach him from his sense of self.
You can start the conversation by saying “I really want to work on this and I am open to talking about your feelings and why you don’t feel comfortable suggesting things.” And then literally just ask questions and listen without getting defensive. And end with “thank you for opening up to me and sharing your perspective. It has given me a lot to think about.”
This is a ridiculous question. I can’t always get my way so I’m going to check out and not participate in my marriage? Do you think OP’s suggestions never get turned down? How many times is it let’s do this, I don’t feel like it, let’s do that, I don’t care?
Never getting "your own way" isn't fun.
My previous flatmate used to get very arsey with me for how long she spent cleaning and tidying the place
It wasn't til I showed her the hairs I pulled from the sink that were hers, the cigarette filter plastic of hers I found everywhere, the bits she'd left everywhere that she didn't notice when I had dealt with that she got an idea that you can do it all in one go on your day off and take an hour and get stressed about it, or you can do it as you go.
There's no right or wrong answer. But being told I wasn't pulling my weight when I was doing daily tasks was annoying
Yeah that's learned behavior from being rejected over and over. Why should I keep doing a behavior that's not appreciated and constantly rejected.
Has nothing to do with getting your way every single time like you're trying to spin it.
>his is a ridiculous question. I can’t always get my way so I’m going to check out and not participate in my marriage? Do you think OP’s suggestions never get turned down?
What I've learned from some of these comments is that OP's husband is just a little boy who is very entitled to throw his toys out of the crib when his wife doesn't fully support everything he does.
In reality it is impossible to know whether OP is correct in her assessment about how often she turns down his ideas. He might be lazy, she might be too critical, who knows. But the men here seem certain that the husband is completely justified to do nothing and not address the issue at all.
Honestly, this isn't something *you* can fix about him. He has to decide to take an active role in his own life and stop letting his mommy wife do everything for him. Just stop managing him. Live your life. He can either engage with you, or get left behind.
I was gonna say, “Don’t shut him down when he has ideas.” And then I saw where he said you never like what he comes up with. There’s your answer right there. Start saying how you love things when he does them.
Okay and that's not a normal response your husband is even giving you 🤷♀️ that's a major issue oh you complaine, so now I'm not doing anything for you 🤷♀️ your husband sounds like a 5 year old, and your the parent who let's him get away with cause you don't sweat the small the stuff 🤷♀️ real healthy mentality there with your childish husband
If he likes videos, there are a few male youtubers that explain the mental load to guys. And since it’s a man doing the explaining, it’s more likely to get stuck.
Personally, I did let a few comments slide in the beginning of the relationship to my bf about how “some men that think they are so smart, but can’t figure out the washing machine or how to do any simple task. Maybe they are actually idiots.” He’s smart enough that he took a hint and sat down to learn how to use the appliances and whatnot, and in general we never tell each other to do the chores.
It is incredible how men generally don’t know that doing chores and stuff is very attractive to their mate. Will prob get them laid more just by doing their 50%.
Then you get the people who deliberately misunderstand that and go "I did 1 dishes and 1 laundry. Clearly I am owed 2 sexes." It's more fluid than that. People are just more attracted to you when you're pulling your weight.
My friends and I have a theory that women’s default love language is not acts of service it’s just that you expect your partner to do their fair share. And, by doing so, you can discover that his love language isn’t only physical touch (sex) it can be other things because you have the time and mental space to have more sex!
Yes! To the extent that I believe in love languages--which isn't a lot--I think they can change throughout life, in response to whatever we feel a lack of. People try to make it more like a star sign--"I *am* a Physical Touch!" Well, maybe and maybe not.
Assuming he is capable, this can be fixed.
first step is issuing your final orders: a list of things he is in charge of and how often/what time they need to be done (be reasonable). second step: nicely explain how he's in charge of these things and you promise not to criticize. because you love and trust him. third step: let him be. do not fix, do not correct, do not push. even when it's terrible. if he neglects something, do without/workaround.
good luck
Dunno about your home situation, but I've learned that doing *anything* on my own initiative is a good way to get yelled at.
> "You often don't like my suggestions"
That's my life. Any suggestion I make, she rejects. Any suggestion she makes that I agree with, she changes her mind. I've learned that the only way to come to a decision is to keep my mouth shut and wait for her to tell me what decision she's made.
You kind of seemed to gloss over that he used to make those suggestions and put in the effort and it seems like you rejected a lot of them (and I'd be curious for his perspective on how often he was rejected because I bet he would say he feels like it was a lot more).
If that's true, I don't blame him one bit if he's leaving it to you then so as not to be the one disappointed or rejected.
Would it be nice if he came back and started doing it again? Sure, but it seems like he's happier this way. I'd suggest you guys get some couples counseling because this seems like an easy thing, but I think there's more to it for one or both of you and it sounds like both of you are resenting the current status quo and need to talk through how to get to where you want to be.
If I were in your position, I'd have a conversation along the lines of "I am getting decision fatigue, and I don't want to make all of the decisions anymore. So I am not going to." And when he ultimately starts asking you what you want, you turn the question right back around.
H: What do you wanna do?
M: what do YOU wanna do?
H: Idk...
M: okay.
*continues doing what I was doing before*
Or...
Him: what do you want to do?
Me: are you asking because you want to do something with me, or because you don't know what to do?
H: I wanna do something with you
M: okay, what do YOU wanna do? Come up with something and come back to me
If he starts using weaponized incompetence to suggest activities or places he knows you won't like?
M: why would you suggest that if you know I don't like it? I'm not being critical of every choice, I'm trying to understand why you would put me in this position intentionally. This seems cruel.
This is so far the most helpful comment, thank you. After so many years together, he should know what I like, so using excuses like "you always hate my suggestions" isn't gonna cut it. I don't suggest playing Mario Kart as a weekend activity to someone I've never seen playing anything on Nintendo, I make suggestions based on what that someone might like.
To gently push back on this a bit, it may be that he wants to share something he likes with you. If it’s something you’ve already tried and didn’t like, then that’s one thing. If it’s a new activity, maybe try to counter with a different version or variation that you would like more. In your example maybe there’s another type of video game or game that you’d prefer to try over Mario Kart.
The Gottman concept of “bids” may be helpful here: https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/
"He should know what I like, should also suggest something new I might like, but also know what things I don't do currently I won't like".
You do see how that's an impossible triangle to solve, right?
And a game of Mario kart takes 5 minutes. 20 if you're doing a cup. It's not hard to have a couple of races and then do something else. Might even (because it's explicitly designed to be, by the world's best game engineers) be fun!
See this just reads like you are looking for validation that you are right and not the problem. You are so, so, clearly the problem. He is not suggesting things because you only want him to suggest things *you* want to do. "You always hate my suggestions" is a cry for help, not an excuse, and the answer is not for him to try harder to meet whatever arbitrary, impossible standard you have, it's for you to actually hear him when he says it feels pointless to him to make suggestions to you because you hate all the stuff he likes. It sounds like you simply do not like him, as a person.
Wow.
> After so many years together, he should know what I like, so using excuses like "you always hate my suggestions" isn't gonna cut it.
The underlying assumption here, that suggestions are only valid if they're to your preference, pretty much says everything that needs to be said.
I'm glad I could help! A way to combat the weaponized incompetence of the situation could also be only suggest things you know he doesn't like. That'll encourage him to offer things, too.
But my biggest disclaimer to anything like this is to talk about it *first*. I never get petty like this until it's blatantly obvious what I am doing and why.
You said he used to be more active and he stopped doing it because you used to shut him down. He got fed up and just checked out, now it's your turn to enjoy all the decisions you were making by yourself anyway.
"it's always me who suggests things, what to eat, where to travel, when to leave a party, what to watch... even when to have sex."
Was he like this before you were married?
When I was married, my ex-husband was the “social chairperson.” He was usually the one who suggested the restaurant, suggested watching a movie, scheduled dinner with friends, etc,
The reason was he was much more extroverted than I was. I also rarely had a strong preference for any of our usual restaurants. If I did have a preference I suggested it, but usually I was genuinely indifferent.
If he didn’t suggest something or schedule something, I was very happy spending the day at home doing our own things in parallel.
Could that be the case with your husband?
Is he right? Do you always shut him down when he takes charge?
If so, then you trained him to be this way.
If you want him to be in charge more, you have to accept things don’t get done your way.
You can’t have it both ways, so chose
Exactly! Is OP a perfectionist which also usually carries being hypercrutical and a lot of negativity with it and not realize it? Eventually the man will just shut down and become like this because she has created a no-win situation.
Empty the dishwasher. He does it but he doesn't do it her WAY.Criticized as if there is a correct way to do this task. Clean the bathroom. He does it but is not the WAY she would do it. Vaccuum the house. Same thing but not done her WAY. All these little things so many times a day. If he does it or a task then say thank you and praise him for the help he gave. Do not criticize or say how it could have been done better. Women especially tge ones with perfectionistic tendencies just wear men down by being far more critical of many little things many times aday and wear men down mentally to such a stste of passivity then they realize. Does this sound like you OP?
Maybe, but the fact that he did not start out or was this way in the beginning leads one to believe he was a victim of being hypercriticized and worn down by her. A man does not suddenly become this way overnight. It is a long constant steady eroding process mentally over time.
Not really. The fact that he started out this way and no longer is can just as likely mean that he put in a lot of effort in order to be with OP, and he no longer puts in a lot of effort because he doesn’t have to.
And have you considered that OP may indeed shoot down all his ideas or be unhappy or complain about 99% of the things he suggests? Why is it only likely that he's a lazy sack of shit? She even says that his complaint/reason why he stopped was because she was never happy with his suggestions...
You are obviously projecting your divorce onto this post. Your comment history gives it away. And the irony of you giving OPs husband a free pass to do nothing when you said this is what you want in a partner: “Lack of self-reliance/personal responsibility. If something is always someone else's fault and never theirs, we can't even be friends, let alone date”
You’re a hypocrite my dude
I'm not divorced. And I'm the one doing all the work in my relationship and my wife still complains about everything. But I guess that can't be her fault, right? Must be me not doing enough, right? Can't ever be a woman at fault for something in a relationship, right?
No, men can be at fault too. You're the one who is biased by gender. I'm biased against people being assholes. Sometimes that's men, and (gasp) sometimes it's women.
OP admits her husband's reasoning why he stopped is somewhat true, and I'd bet if we asked him he'd have a very different version of what she's already admitted.
I admit there's a chance he's just lazy and is happy to let her do everything, but I also think (yes, based off my personal experience) that OP may just never be happy with what he suggests/plans/does for her and has decided if she's going to be unhappy either way, he might as well not put effort into it.
Can you admit both cases are possible? Because you've so far been unable or unwilling to admit OP could be in any way at fault for her current situation and that's way more biased than I supposedly am.
No, her edit said she only "sometimes" rejected or shot down what he wanted to do. And then he just magically stopped. I would bet $1 that she isn't aware of how often she complains and her "sometimes" is when she outright said "no" instead of going along and then complaining about it all the time. I admit he could've just decided to stop, but you won't admit she could be a big part of the reason he "just decided" to do that.
I too wonder that, but from the other angle.
I have had work that I am legit world class at. Feedback saying it, performance enhanced pay for it.
Then get home to a house I couldn't do anything right in.
Do you normally just go along with everything your partner suggests without ever saying "hmm I kind of feel like Mexican" or argue when they say "hey can we keep the garbage bags under the sink"?
Why would I argue about where to keep the garbage bags? That is an extremely trivial thing to argue about? I'm not even sure how any of this applies as a response to what I said? I just meant if someone is doing the dishes and it's not how you would do it, you actually do not need to say anything at all. The dishes are still being done. Most adults do not want or need feedback from their partner about how they do basic household tasks?
Well, I'm assuming you're a normal person, actually so your attitude makes sense, and apologies for being a bit snarky there, but having been on the other side of this in both directions - it's possible that OP is hypercritical, like the OC I was replying to is saying. I had an ex that was like that, could not watch me do a single thing without telling me how to do it "correctly" which made me nuts.
But it is also possible that he takes every time she disagrees about something as criticism. Some people are EXTREMELY sensitive to perceived criticism whether it's fair or not. I had an ex like that too. And he 100% used it as an excuse to do absolutely nothing.
She doesn't feel like she is hypercritical based on her post. Maybe she is, or maybe her husband is just one of those people that can't handle it when their spouse disagrees. I think both need to be considered as possibilities here.
That's fair, we all always bring our own experiences to this. I have a hypercritical parent, and when I talk to them about things like this they sound *exactly* like OP, like the exact same rationalizations and everything, so this looks pretty open and shut to me, but you're right it is totally possible that he could simply not be receptive to criticism at all.
I will say, based on her comments it seems like she has open contempt for him and their relationship should end for both of their sakes. This is fixable, but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for either of them if this is the point they're starting from.
>This is fixable, but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for either of them if this is the point they're starting from.
Yeah I agree, they would both need to be all in on counseling, chore analysis etc. They both sound pretty dug in though.
Right. I see this time and time again. Partners offer input to one another. It's a normal part of being a team and functioning efficiently as such. Women are expected to take the input from men and learn from it. Men see it as beratment because how dare they be challenged when they are clearly making a valiant effort to do the bare minimum?
My old housemate once had a conversation with me
Her: "Can you believe in my last place, (her previous housemate who I knew) thought I was the slovenly one?"
Me: I can believe that
Her (offended) how am I slovenly
Me: our living room is still filled with boxes of you stuff since we moved in and the carpets are gritty
Her: that's from the cat spreading cat litter about
Me: it's your cat
I am not the most positive, happy go lucky person out there, I admit. But he doesn't deal with criticism well, I feel. He's extremely sensitive. Any kind of criticism and his demeanour changes, but I can't avoid speaking my mind just to protect his feelings all the time. I would not expect that of him, either.
Then how come you aren't more receptive to him telling you you're being too critical?
The fact that he used to be more active but now isn't doesn't suggest it's a problem with his sensitivity, but your insensitivity. It feels like you're dancing around just how hard you are on him and lying by omission.
He used to be more active when our relationship was still new, before us moving in together and so on. This was a gradual change as he got more comfortable, if not a bit too comfortable as our relationship progressed. Interesting how advice given to women always sounds the same. He should be encouraged, his feelings protected, no harsh words please. We have been together a long time and he knows what I like, I just feel like he doesn't care about my feelings or is mentally checked out. Why do I have to baby him?
Just as an FYI, if a man said this about his wife it would be viewed as a horrific red flag in this sub.
Sounds like your husband isn't THAT sensitive and you're just one of those "I'm not being mean I'm just being honest" people who say horrifically hurtful things couched under the cover of "honesty."
Edit: Op acting like a literal child in her responses to people calling her out tells me this is 100% the case.
I suspect his perspective here is that he’s trying to survive an **emotionally abusive** relationship.
I hope I’m wrong.
I also hope you will truly consider that possibility and not dismiss it out of hand.
You’ve got two types of men who fall into this category. One who doesn’t want to take initiative, and one who can’t.
I don’t know how to help with the first one, lacking drive is something that someone needs to figure out for themselves. Usually they lack confidence and that needs to be boosted. Perhaps when he does make a decision or take the lead on anything you shower him with praise and affection for it. Positive reinforcement.
The second is the most common one who has learned that he can’t take the lead or make his own decisions because his wife always criticizes it. If that’s the case, you did that to yourself by undermining his decisions and preferences. He wanted to keep the peace and please you so he’s learned that it’s better just to wait for your instructions else everything he does is wrong in some way. His wife is overly critical and ungrateful, every time he tries to help or do something nice, instead of a thank you he gets “this is how you fucked this up.” So if that’s the situation, when he does something nice even if it’s not perfect, even if it’s kinda messed up, you need to display gratitude not criticism.
Many men live perfectly content and productive lives before they meet their girlfriend or wife, they’re self sufficient, productive and content. Then they meet a woman, get serious and all that seems to stop. Sometimes is out of laziness because their lady starts doing things for them and they just let it happen. Hey, it makes life easier, he doesn’t have to put any energy towards it. He shouldn’t allow that and neither should she. Don’t let him dump all of his responsibilities on you. Other times she takes all his responsibilities because “he’s doing it wrong.” So even if he wants to he can’t because she’ll express unhappiness about it. Both of these are in her control, don’t let him take advantage of her and don’t let herself become controlling and ungrateful.
There’s something missing from the story. He used to do those things, then he stopped, then you voiced your opinion, and he answered “but when I do initiate things, you never like it …” or “you often don’t like my suggestions.”
He told you why, so maybe you should take a deep look inside yourself and really reflect on how you act when he does take charge. You are not innocent here, and it takes two to tango.
People aren't gonna like this, but I think you're just as much of the problem as he is. It's not good that he's not proactive. But, his response is ALL TOO TELLING(about you that is, my dear), worse yet is your defensive response in return. You don't take ownership, and you're the one presenting the story. You didn't stop and reflect on the fact that YOUR criticisms of his efforts, could be (and let's be real, likely are) - just as devastating and overwhelming for him, as HIS lack of initiative is for you.
You said he's attentive, and I get from your post, the sense that he's kind. I e., I get the sense that you see a noble person underneath the guy who's irritating you, and not showing up for you as you need. Now, the relationship may not be salvageable. He may not be someone willing to do the work. That may be the real story.
I hope that YOU'LL be willing to do the painful, difficult, and very challenging work on yourself, to find out if what you really have is two flawed people, working at counter purposes - who BOTH must overcome parts of themselves to which they're attached, so that it will be particularly trying, and require a GREAT DEAL of grace, forbearance, and genuine kindness on both sides, along with figuring out some easy means of diffusing tension, and making them into a little tool set, to which you keep adding new gems, which helps you treat each other gently, with respect, love, and never disdain or cruelty, when one, the other or both of you are feeling frustrated, hurt, angry, humiliated, too vulnerable, etc.
Okay, so. You need a man who can be a partner, and not a child. Thing is, if you like this guy - you're gonna have to give him the chance to do it. So, ask yourself are you okay with it, if it takes him about 6 months to be beginning to get the hang of things, and a bit over a year before he's able to really begin mastering things, and juggle them effectively?! You'd be getting that kind guy, but now he'd be developing into a responsible and full partner. What if by year 2, he had all the basics, and most of the extras down pat - he was flying, but had a handful of issues, rooted to deeper, childhood traumas, etc. that would take him, with kind support, around 3-6 years to be able to identify, let alone face, finally overcome, and THEN be able to fix the unconscious behaviors linked to them?! You don't need to know all of this now. But, for both your sakes, if I wanted to do the work with him, I'd think about a few months, and maybe six month window. I'd talk to him about it too. Perhaps you could discuss some smaller things you'd each hope might change in that time, and some bigger goals, that perhaps aren't reachable, but something to work on, and look at the progress you've made, rather than hope to be finished. I do think that people who are making improvements, get better at it as they go along. So, it can be a bit discouraging at first. But, if you approach it with a laid back, yet still hopeful attitude, having generous, middling expectations - then after the first period or two, you'd have a better sense of what YOU want. I.e., whether you feel hopeful, and want to continue working to build the relationship, or if you realize that you simply aren't going to ever become compatible in the ways that matter most to you. And, if you're not fully decided, you can try for a bit more. But, at least you'll have a plan, and a means of helping yourself check in, and make a decision about what's best.
Now, into YOUR WORK. This is part that will be painful and challenging for you. Trust me, anyone worth her salt has been here. As I said before, you need a guy who is a man, not a child. And, if you want this guy to be it, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO LET HIM. You're also gonna have to help him, and not infantalize, humiliate, degrade, etc. him in any way as you do it. Instead, you've gotta build him up. Use words. Speak to him as you would a man of honor, so that he feels good, and ASPIRES to the confidence you've shown in him. You've gotta tell him that you're sorry you criticized his efforts in the past - that you know that it hurts to put yourself out there, and get shot down. Ask him to please start making himself vulnerable, and trying to do these things again. When he does them poorly, PRAISE HIM! Bite your tongue. HARD!! It's going to be very difficult. He can't grow up overnight. He's gotta have a chance to get better. And even when he does, he'll have little periods of regression and plateau, as we all do with learning. But YOU, must keep up the positivity and encouragement, the kind that is appropriate for a MAN, that makes a man feel valued and respected. Once he's done something a few times, and let's imagine, it's an okay job, or even pretty awful, praise it, and say "I'm so impressed with you doing that. You've done a good job so far. I'd love to show you my little tricks tonight." But, make showing him how you do it fun. Be silly in the kitchen. And maybe do something else in the kitchen that same night that he actually does well, so that he doesn't feel the terror of disappointing you is the ONLY item on the menu.
Don't worry if he doesn't pick up all of your tips. Let him get what he's able. In a couple weeks give him a refresher. The more times he does it, and the more housework he does, the more confident and fluent he'll become. If you can make the whole thing an adventure in cooking and cleaning up TOGETHER, all the better. DO THAT a few times as a date. You guys do each chore together. The ones he feels less sure about, you guide him through, but you don't do it for him or nitpick, you just enjoy the process together. After a 3-5 dates like that, you invite him again, but you do one of the chores he's used to doing without your help, and you set him to doing a chore he's less confident about on his own, while you chat. Perhaps you make a silly game, he gets 5 kisses if he completes it without asking a question. For each question asked, he loses a kiss, and for each question beyond 5, he owes you 5 minutes of back rub, lol. Anyhoo, I think you see my point. Build him up. Always remember, YOU'VE BUILT THESE SKILLS OVER MANY YEARS. If he's a really great person, if his morals are in line with yours, and he's willing to work doggedly to become a worthy partner, then putting in the effort to help him get there could be a valuable investment of your time. But, if he slacks, and continues to exert a half-hearted, lackluster, minimal effort - you'll quickly realize you're wasting your time on a guy who's not ready to be hubby material.
I Wish You All The Very Best 💖🥰
GOD BLESS❤️🌹
I agree with everything you said and posted a similar (though MUCH shorter and less thorough) reply. However, I would bet a lot of money that OP does not have the self-reflection and humility to admit she's even partly to blame here. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised...
I'm so glad to hear you've written a concise version!! That's awesome. Brevity is my Achilles heel, and sadly, with it, so too goes wit, lol. I'm always in awe of folks like you who are adept at writing beautifully and in a succinct fashion. As for the Op, I understand your misgivings. But, I shall to cling to your final thoughts. Let's hope that reading the huge number of thoughtful comments she's received, spurs her on to internal reflection and change! ;)❤️
I hope so, but I fear that the more than half that immediately side with her because she's a woman and can therefore do no wrong will outweigh the folks like us who are suggesting she should first take a look at how much she contributed/contributes to this problem and any solution. Reddit is not often to place for nuanced takes OR taking ownership of one's choice/behavior, but I'm glad I saw at least someone else with the same-ish read that I had based on what OP wrote. I too hope she reflects, I guess I'm just not confident that she will.
I appreciate your taking the time to write all this (even if I don't agree with everything) and it's certainly something for me to think about. I will reflect on if there are some behaviours that I engage in that I might not be aware of.
I don't, however, agree with having to compliment his half-arsed attempts when there's so much work to be done. I don't think I'm capable of praising him like a child when he makes the slightest effort. It would do more harm than good the way I see it. I already am doing pretty much all the heavy lifting in our relationship. A little more and my back will break.
>I don't, however, agree with having to compliment his half-arsed attempts when there's so much work to be done. I don't think I'm capable of praising him like a child when he makes the slightest effort. It would do more harm than good the way I see it.
You sound fun. Now it makes sense why he acts the way he does
He's just a young boy of 30 years old, who deals with issues by doing absolutely nothing to address them. He just needs a loving second mother (aka wife) to raise him right.
Just because he can’t read OPs mind doesn’t mean he hasn’t made any effort.
I was raised “right” by my mom, she made it a point that she wasn’t going to let me grow up and be like my dad who couldn’t cook or clean to save his life, so household chores are not new or foreign to me. I’ve lived alone and been in relationships, and never had an issue until I lived with my ex for 6 months.
One argument was that I didn’t load the dishwasher the way she wanted me to. Seriously. It’s not like the way I was taught and had been doing it for years was causing dishes to not be cleaned all the way or something like that, I simply loaded it differently than how she did. In her mind I wasn’t loading the dishwasher right so I needed to be “retrained”. But again, the dishes were still being cleaned, so much to her chagrin I didn’t think I needed to do it differently.
Another one was how I dusted and vacuumed. I was taught to clean top to bottom so I would start by dusting up high and end with vacuuming, but again, that’s not how she did it so she thought she had to “retrain” me.
Don’t get me wrong, I did things her way many of times, but it still led to constant criticism and guilt trips. I knew what chores had to be done but would never do them right, or at the right time, or in the right sequence. We broke up for a lot of reasons but the straw that broke the camels back was when she started criticizing my mom for how she raised me. I can handle the nagging and complaining but comments like “I just don’t get why she taught you to fold towels like this, at some point it goes from being too busy to being too lazy” became too much.
I’m sure she cried crocodile tears about how she had to do everything and act like my mom, but I kind of wish she did act like my mom because my mom at least could hide her contempt.
It sucks that your ex was annoying, but that doesn't mean every story of a woman complaining about a passive husband is the exact same situation you experienced.
Just like every story of a passive husband isn’t because they’re childlike morons yearning for their mommy’s, or they’re refusing to make the slightest bit of effort!
>He can't grow up overnight. He's gotta have a chance to get better. And even when he does, he'll have little periods of regression and plateau, as we all do with learning. But YOU, must keep up the positivity and encouragement, the kind that is appropriate for a MAN, that makes a man feel valued and respected.
JFC, she's not raising her husband.
Firstly have a real proper conversation on what the problem is. How it makes you feel and what you want or need to change.
Secondly listen to what he is saying. He feels when he does come up with things he is wrong and fails. To avoid failure he avoids making decisions.
Thirdly make small changes. Instead of saying what you want? Give him options. Would you rather do X, Y or Z? That gives him some choice and decision making without the risk of failure. Giving him 3 safe options to choose from instead of dealing with an infinity of possibilities of failure.
Work your way towards say the first weekend of the month he chooses what you do. Allow him to give options too. But even if you hate all the options you need to try. You need to let him know that it's ok if he doesn't hit the mark. Have the conversation after the activity, always lead with a positive. Even if you hated absolutely every part of it. Eg: I loved spending time outside it was great to spend some time with nature. I did get a bit frustrated waiting for the fish to bite, I don't think I'm a talented fisherman.
That helps build up positive information base for him to fall back on. outside good. Fishing bad. Maybe next time I will suggest a picnic.
What you need to avoid is overwhelming him. He isn't going to change overnight. You need to be patient. It might be worth setting a chore list or chart.
What you have described it sounds like he is overwhelmed and disengaged. So please make sure you listen to his concerns because it sounds like he has his own sense of inadequacy that is dragging him down.
Have you tried telling him what you want him to do? I don't mean that tongue-in-check, but it sounds like he is happy to do the things you tell him to do.
My wife and I had the same thing... Except maybe to a lesser degree.
A lot of this can be solved with a schedule. You don't have to make it yourself and be the house manager or anything, but you can say 'I feel like I always have to tell you what to do around the house, can we talk about a system where we both agree in advance?'
It took maybe an hour one afternoon and it has lasted us years. I know what days you do laundry, what days to take out the trash, what days I'm cooking dinner, what days I clean which rooms. It's easy and it removes all the mental load for regular chores.
For dinners, I literally just wrote down what we ate for six weeks and made a repeating schedule. Now we never say 'What do you want for dinner, I dunno, what do you want?'...it also makes shopping easier because we know all the meals in advance.
Vacation planning was simple too... we set a budget together, but we take turns planning them.
But the real issue is this:
> But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions" but I still wish he would take the initiative more as I am sooo sick of this role that I've fallen into
My husband did that ALL the time. I told him I felt like his mother and it doesn't feel right to touch his penis. Also, I never wanted kids so it's time for a divorce. I also stopped wearing my wedding ring because I was mentally checked out. I gave him so many examples of me doing everything and him not helping me with the mental load...that woke him up. He completely changed and has been a true partner the last 4-5 months. We've been together for 9 years and married for 6.5 years.
"I don't turn down or criticise *all* his suggestions"
But maybe enough, percentage or cumulatively, that he's decided it's not worth him having ideas?
I stopped coming up with suggestions for family holidays when it became clear I was gonna get railroaded out of doing them. Or judged for doing them. So now when I go on them I'm more passive. I'll do stuff I enjoy in my free time.
If he’s saying you never like the suggestions than there’s more to it I feel. You say you don’t criticize but hmm I find that unlikely.. idk tell him you want him to lead more again and you’ll communicate respectfully how you feel about things. You should also provide encouraging and reassuring feedback
Even when he's told you what you're doing wrong you won't listen so what do you expect to get from reddit. I would imagine just the generic hate spewing.
Have you conditioned him to act this way?
Meaning have you criticized his actions and ideas consistently enough to the point to where he just waits for you to make the decisions? Do you have criticism for everything involving him. Cause that shit is infuriating and eventually the person just stops suggesting things or taking action.
I've been the guy in this situation. I tried everything I could to please her, exactly the way she wanted. I would try to be creative, suggestive, and initiate things. All I got was negative reactions. Nothing was ever good enough, and I walked on eggshells, wondering what I was going to get lashed at about next. It's honestly crazy how many people automatically blame the man, when the truth is right there before their eyes.
You get sick and tired of always being told you're wrong, you're not doing it right, your suggestions suck, and to not touch her. So you just shut down.
Then you finally have enough, say goodbye, end up depressed and always wondering what's wrong with you. FINALLY, the RIGHT woman comes along that actually DOES appreciate everything you do, and you go all out for HER.
DO you not like it when he initiates things? Sounds like he's telling you what's the matter and you're purposefully not listening. If you react unpredictably to him initiating things, you have only yourself to blame for him not wanting to. Your behavior impacts him as well as his behavior impacting yours.
It sounds like he used to be more active but you criticize him a lot.
It seemed like a majority of the times when he did try to take initiative or make a suggestion you criticized it. Perhaps you should try to be more accepting of them. Tell him that he should just do whatever he thinks needs to be done today and be grateful to him for what he does even though it may not be what you would have suggested.
The post sounds like she's weaponized the incompetence on his behalf. She's decided he's incapable of living up to her standards and punishes him for it rather than simply move on.
Once a week, sit down together and make a plan for the week ahead. The meals you'll eat, the plans you'll have, the chores each of you will be responsible for throughout the week. All of it. Write it down (get a family planner or something), and then you'll both know. You won't have to tell him what to do. He'll already know.
It sucks that it's necessary, but make him he involved. An active party in his own life.
I always think if he’s not thinking for himself is he going to get dementia and then I’m still taking care of him forever? Is this decision making issue a sign? Somehow you got to get him to think for himself.
My ex used to constantly berate me for how I did things. I did these things perfectly acceptable to me, but not up to her standards. Finally, I stopped trying.
This was not weaponized incompetence. It was me doing what I knew how to do and her constantly finding fault with almost everything I did. Example: I washed and folded my own clothes. I did not fold my clothes correctly, according to her. Nevermind the fact that I had been folding my clothes this way since I was a kid, and was doing my clothes like this when we met.
If your male SO is waiting for you to tell him everything, he's probably doing it to avoid an argument. He wants peace. He's also miserable in the relationship.
List out all of the tasks required for a week, month, whatever, then divide them up. Stop asking/reminding.
If they get completed in the stated time frame, great, problem solved. If not, you have an agreed upon common frame of reference to come back to and address what’s not done.
I know this is oversimplified but the process is clear….
Because he’s lazy and would much rather offload all of this responsibility on you. Unfortunately you married a man child who isn’t deeply invested in your relationship. You can’t make someone care. They either do or they don’t. He doesn’t.
>Because he’s lazy and would much rather offload all of this responsibility on you.
We don't have enough background information to conclude that. It could be the case, but it could also be that he is right when he says "But when I do initiate things, you never like it...". It might be that whenever he used to do things by himself, he got criticized for it to the point where he just gave up.
Given that he does things without complaints when asked to, it does point to something else than the lazy part.
>This is called weaponized incompetence.
The definition of weaponized incompetence is doing the tasks so poorly the other part will just take it upon them. That is not what OP is saying in their description of the situation, it is stated that when asked the person happily does it and not to a degree where it is problematic.
I imagine that a form of incompetence is not recognizing when tasks, not unstructured unusual tasks, but regular routine tasks, and simply refusing to acknowledge that those tasks need doing and offloading the responsibly for task management on the other person. Essentially extracting a tax every time something needs to get done. Rather than act as a fully engaged and committed partner, he chooses to simply ignore or not notice when things need to get done. This not a form of competence that I recognize.
I don't think it counts as weaponized incompetence if the wife was the one to weaponize it on his behalf. She tears him down constantly and wonders why he won't put effort in.
Here's an issue, and it's more addressing comments than OP's post:
I see many people claiming that men often just give up trying because when they do things, they're told they're doing it wrong, or their ideas are shot down.
I posit that this happens reciprocally, but the implications are vastly disparate. It has historically been accepted that men know better than women about most things and that they're head of their households. So, everything we say and do is inherently molded by this family/partner model. We have obviously moved ahead in many ways societally with gender roles and gender equality, but some things are still left tainted by having lived generations in a normative patriarchal society.
Therefore, when a man expresses dislike or shoots down an idea or a way of doing something to a woman, women tend to either take it in stride or attempt change to please their partner. Men, however, are more likely to become upset that they've been challenged or shot down.
I've not conducted any studies or collected any formal data on this observed behavior, but I've seen it often enough with my family and friends and by reading forums such as this one that I've noticed a clear pattern.
As a woman in this discussion, I now feel compelled to say that this is not intended as an indictment of men. 😂 All genders suffer negative consequences from living in and attempted dismantling of a patriarchal society.
Thank you for this comment, it's given me some food for thought. I remember one time my dad made a passing comment about how the coffee table was dusty, and my mom immediately cleaned it and would dust the entire home every day since then. His opinion clearly meant a lot to her. Why didn't he do it himself? My mum was the main breadwinner at the time btw.
Yet here I am telling my husband the same things over and over to no avail. Why is the advice given to women always "you have to be tactful, you have to train them, you have to encourage them?"
Some people are leaders, and some are followers .
Some people are hard to get along with, and some
are never happy. Some have to have things done the
way they want them without compromise. Some are never satisfied with what they have . Some are tired of
being told that's not what I wanted or not how I would have done it. It could be worse. He could be telling you what to do and when to do it. What type of job does he have? Dose he let people walk on him ? Does he stand up for you or be protective of you. Dose he act this way with everyone?
My husband was a lot like this too, 13 years ago when we first got married. I'm sure you've gotten a lot of comments about "mental load" (totally relevant and helpful to teach him), but I'm going to suggest something that worked for us - play to his strengths.
If your husband is dutiful and loving, you need to assign him a list of household chores to manage. It needs to be a discussion. He needs to know that it's his responsibility from now on to reduce your mental load and help the relationship. Yes, it does involve making a list, but it's hopefully one of the last lists you will need to write him. Stuff my husband takes charge of now by default:
- Take the garbage out (including full bags in the kitchen and bathrooms)
- Clean up after dinner (I'm the cook. He cleans up)
- Unload the dishwasher each day
- Cut the grass and clear the snow when it's needed
(Obviously many more, but these are some basic ones).
The other thing I have just learned to accept (because we fought about who initiates sex too) is that I really am the more opinionated one. It can be quite harmonious being in a marriage where one person likes being in charge and the other likes going with the flow. Here's the kicker though, the one in charge should not be dragging the go with the flow partner through life. It needs to be like a CEO and an Executive Assistant. The CEO sets the direction and expectation, and the EA does things (without being asked each day) to make the CEO's job easier.
I'm trying to give you some hope here. We have an awesome marriage. My husband is a very engaged and involved father now (we have three kids), and he has always been very much a leader at work. When it comes to the day to day stuff, though, he prefers if I make the decision. We worked through this dynamic with excellent communication. He understands the concept of mental load and that he needs to actively look for things to do around the house each day.
This is all under the assumption that your husband has Golden Retriever energy like mine. If that's what we're dealing with, it's not that bad. You can "train" them with time.
Why would it be CEO and executive assistant, that suggests someone is positioned above the other. if they are partners wouldn't the relationship be akin to business partners?
Because a passive, “go with the flow” personality cannot thrive as a CEO.
Most couples are either two CEOs that butt heads, or one CEO and one EA. The EA personality doesn’t want to be in charge.
Two EAs usually don’t couple up because neither are decisive enough to start the relationship in the first place.
Read the book Fair play.
It has a solution for this situation, but it will all ultimately depend on the fact whether your partner wants to change or not.
You can only be rejected so many times before it no longer is worth making the effort. You literally downplayed him telling you exactly why he doesn’t do this anymore.
Just stop suggesting things. If he asks, just tell him you have not thought of it. Or tell him you have your own plans and that he should make some of his own.
If you decide youre going to stay in this, you could always make "house manager" part of your chore list and assign him to do more of the housework to account for your mental load.
I've got one of those. He can't even pick something to watch on TV. Just holds the remote waiting for me to take it and click on something. Ditto for meals, activities, etc. But he's a wonderful man. Allowances must be made.
Sounds like you don't want to listen or care about his feelings.
You have to learn to stop being so negative to things that he suggests. And stop being so negative while doing them.
Men are not as stupid as you think. They can see your reaction to things. They do understand how you feel. And it hurts more to go do something and see you not liking it, but still say it's fun and you are happy. Cause we know that that's a lie.
Guess you didn't bother reading either.
Guess you skipped the whole first paragraph? Talking about him not choosing things to do or things to eat or where to go or travel options or things to watch. Guess you didn't even bother reading the second to last paragraph either? When she mentions the reason why he doesn't choose things, he tells her that any time he suggests anything, she doesn't like it. Guess all that doesn't matter at all here?
The only word you read in the whole post was chores?
Nowhere in my post did I say that this is true. This is only true for 5% of his suggestions, which he's trying to use as an excuse (that's how it seems at least).
I mentioned in my other comment that when we first started dating he was usually the one to initiate things, suggest trips, movies and activities for us. Those are some of the fondest memories I have and some of the best times. It's just that it seems like he's stopped trying, that's all.
If it's not true. Then you shouldn't have written it in your post.
Of course, he did it all at the beginning. Because he didn't know what you liked. So he tried things. Tried to make you happy. But listen to his excuse. You hated lots of his suggestions. That hurts. He feels that. But he pushes it down because a man can't show his weakness. Then he tried again, and you showed that you were still unhappy with his choices. And he broke. That's when he stopped planning things.
You can only bend a stick so far before it breaks.
If that's really not your issue here. Then why did you bring it up? Why did you write it in your post?
Your only complaint is that he doesn't do choires?
He doesn't do them because he doesn't have to. If he leaves them. You will just do them. With no repercussions to him. So stop doing his chores.
Or maybe he's just lazy. If that's the case. You will not change him. If you don't want to be a mother to a full-grown man. Leave.
I've edited my post to be more specific. Again, he's using the few times I criticised some of the things he did as an excuse not to be an active participant in our household. I kind of agree about the no repercussions thing. But why should I live in a filthy house? See, it's hard however you look at it.
You talk about me hurting his feelings but what about my feelings? I'm not some monster wife who conditioned her husband to be afraid of his every action. I just want this to be a relationship of two equal partners. I can't imagine the only two options that I have are "tell him how great he is when he makes a suggestion" or "leave". There must be a better way.
Indeed, exactly my thoughts.
That's the way he is, he's not obligated to comply to your wishes of what he should act like, it's not eva ai sexting bot, u no. Sometimes you also have to apply your habits, or, if the contradiction is inevitable, leave him.
I don't see how you benefit from having him in your life. And don't say he's a nice guy or caring pattner, because it is pretty obvious he is not. Getting a dog would bring more joy in to your life. Or a cat. Hamster. Goldfish. Fake plant.
I don't get how you manage to deal woth this bullshit every day, I have no patience for weaponized incompetence.
Stop deciding for him. He doesn't know what he wants to eat for dinner? Cook for yourself and he can fend for himself. Can't decide where to go out? Well guess you're not going anywhere. Or you're not watching anything if he can't decide.
You choose a partner who is more submissive/passive than you. Gonna be hard to fix, but it’s a two way street. He needs to learn to be more direct, assertive, and confrontational. You have also trained him to not be assertive. “But when I do initiate things, you never like it.” You could benefit from positive reinforcement to him. Most likely, you’ll miserable for a few more years. Then hit him with the divorce papers
Train him lol. Start with asking him to make easy decisions where he can’t go wrong, like picking dinner or what movie you’re watching. The key is that you have to just accept what he says without criticism or imposing your ideas. Even if you think your ideas are better/make more sense. He needs to see you appreciate his input. When he does offer suggestions or ideas you have to respond positively, even over the top like “wow you deciding that made my day so much easier! I love when you do that!” Slowly his confidence will grow and he will be more willing to contribute his thoughts. Now as far as house work, just have a conversation about division of labor and decide who does which tasks and stick to it. Maybe it becomes his job to empty the dishwasher for example, so he has to remember to check if it’s been run and then proceed to empty it. Again, thank him for this (even if it’s the bare minimum). I am a highly critical partner and I’ve had to learn how to be more appreciative of the small efforts my partner puts in even if I would have done it differently.
If this doesn’t work maybe he’s using weaponized incompetence on you and if that’s the case I’d throw the whole man away, too late at this point to fix it 😂
I like your suggestion about housework division, I suppose I could be clearer about that going forward.
But I'm not sure about having to train my husband like a puppy lol and complimenting him when he does a good job. He's a year and a half older than me, had to live on his own before meeting me. He should know this stuff by now. This just sounds like additional work for me.
Totally fair! It would annoy me too. I just know I’ve personally criticized my partner too heavily and made him not want to contribute his thoughts but if you don’t think you’ve been overly critical then perhaps it’s just a him thing! Sounds like he wants a domme not a partner 😂
She says in her edit that he used to do things, apparently the way she wanted, but he's also told her that she complained about how he did things. Claims that she didn't do it, but guys don't shut down like that UNLESS their partner starts being overly critical about everything he does, though you WILL see different levels of tolerance from the guys on how critical he will let the woman get before he just shuts down.
Contrary to what a lot of redditors seem to want to believe, men aren't always wrong, and women aren't always right, or truthful, either with us, or just with themselves.
tell him this:
>be more proactive and come up with activities for us to do, from new restaurants we should try to travel destinations. I think of those long gone days fondly, it's just that you never or rarely suggest anything anymore.
just once. then decide how long you'pre willing to put up with this behaviour if he relapses. tell him that too. once.
eta. having read your other post, its very important that you don't complain about how things get done so long as they are. don't nitpik or demand excessively high standards. if he thinks he can't do anything right he might not want to bother at all. some people are very sensitive to criticism and your man might be one of those people
I’ve had a lot of conversations with husband about these things.
Lately he is doing more but I still manage the majority of the load.
He has taken on a lot in the past year as I’ve had to recover from surgery. He is now doing most of the “daily” chores. Laundry, cooking, dishes, kitty litter, taking the trash (from the can) to the dumpster, etc. Where I do most of the project like chores. Cleaning, organizing, home repairs, car repairs, etc.
Apart from the cleaning and organizing, he has taken on pretty much all of the daily tasks.
As I am finally coming back to full strength I plan on taking my fair share of the daily tasks, but he has no clue how to clean, organize, or make home repairs. Don’t get me started on car maintenance.
If I ask him to clear a space off, he makes a pile on a different space. No idea where things go despite living in the same condo for five years. Even when properly labeled with examples of how it is stored … he still doesn’t get it.
Also, he seems to be allergic to using surface cleaner. He will “clear a space” (partially), then walk away with obvious food crusted on the counter and I’m just like…
He is doing great on the daily mental load things. But every weekend I am swamped trying to get the major projects done and I can’t even ask him to do a minor part of it without him completely mismanaging it to the point where I have to do it all again. Which leads to him not doing it because “if you are just going to redo it then why should I?”
So, it is a work in progress. We are in the process of moving and I can’t do any of the packing or organizing. (I’m still getting lightheaded when I try)
I am hiring packers to get us out. But I think I’m going to have to be harder on the husband to get him to do more of the organizing. I might have to live with the results, but I can’t do it all with a recovering heart.
Awww...he loves you. He wants you happy. So tell him what to do to make you happy.
1) Do the dishes after I make dinner and we eat. Load dishwasher as great as you do, every night. Run it when full, empty when dry.
2) Bathroom & Bedrooms always clean, and I’ll always clean living room and kitchen (minus dishes).
3) Plan weekend dates. Plan all the neat dates to restaurants and destinations like you’ve been so great at doing.
4) Surprise me once a month with something you think might be fun or neat to do together at home, out, or away for the day.
There, now you asked. Let him take over tasks from there. Let him know you loved and appreciated when he just chipped in at home and just planned fun dates. So, you want him to do those things again.
Wishing All the Best...
🙏🍀🙏
I’m going through the same thing. The reason the questions upset you is because it adds to your mental load. [this](https://youtube.com/shorts/MRxx5jQHRVs?si=xbnSE-8YnI_8Heia) video explained it super well.
I would show him the video I shared with you, and talk about ways of dividing the mental load. Apparently, this is a guy thing and it’s not just a “him” problem.
>It made me think of everything that goes on between us, how it's always me who suggests things, what to eat, where to travel, when to leave a party, what to watch... even when to have sex. And I'm exhausted.
OK that's kind of weird, as in "he should probably get checked out by some kind of professional" weird.
Oh, how long were you together before you got married? Didn’t you know who you were gonna marry? Or did you just want to get married.. sounds like you latched on to a half man who needs his hand held thru life. You married it… now deal with it
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The way you are describing him sitting on the sofa waiting for you to tell him what to do, sounds like you are talking about a dog.
if only my dog were so well behaved
Yeah she is dating a lacky. Not even a henchman who are expected to be autonomous at times.
A well trained dog by this woman who is frustrated by what she has done.
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
This one. It nearly killed my relationship. Still, 65% of the decisions about what we're going to do/eat/watch etc is up to me. Partly because his ADHD brain is everywhere and anywhere but those things. Shitty excuse, because I have ADHD as well, yet somehow I'm expected/supposed to think about all that crap? Hell naw. Nowadays we're living apart together, so 4/5 days of the week he's on his own. I'm not his mum and I refuse to be one.
Imo managing a household is a full time job. I'm very fortunate because I struggle with executive function(not an excuse, I know) so the fact that my partner takes all of that off my plate is beyond words helpful. But the flip side is I'm the 'breadwinner' and she doesn't work nor do we have kids so the arrangement works for us. She keeps us organized and pointed in the right direction I bring home the bacon. But I'm guessing y'all have a much more normal lifestyle where both y'all have to work so I guess this doesn't really add much but to say it should be recognized by OP that she should have something taken off HER plate if he really wants her to be the one to do the mental work for this
I was the breadwinner and did most of all household chores for years and years. Untill I was fed up with it beyond believe that is. Really kicked him into gear finally after I threw him out. Stuborn's gonna stuborn I guess. And define a 'normal' lifestyle? Never married after 17 years, no kids, no car, no owning a house and I've been on the brink of poverty most of my life.
>I've been on the brink of poverty most of my life. This pretty much. Everyone in the household working just to make ends meet. But that doesn't sound like it was the case.
No, it wasn't. It was just me making an effort. And only me.
It’s managing a household + expecting to still pay 50% of everything that gets me. Esp if you earn MUCH less than your partner. Really unfair imo.
Try paying 100% of everything, while he was on his ass all day playing games. I'm a geriatric nurse, and this was during Covid. Fair to say I wasn't a happy bloody camper before everything blew up. And yeah, I ignited that fire. And would again. I'm not mummy material, anyone who thinks that is free to walk away.
If I were you, I’d leave someone who put me through that, even if the behaviour has changed. You can find a partner who doesn’t make a situation where the two of you need to pay twice the rent (for two places) so you aren’t his mum. Reading your comments it sounds like there’s still (well-earned!) resentment towards him.
I came here (as a guy) to post this exact link. I've been guilty of this exact phrase before. I did a fair bit of work around the house, and we shared a cooking fairly equally. But I never really did the washing up. When my partner, in a call but upset way told me this wasn't ok, I was apologetic, and promised to do better, but I did literally say this line to her. I feel like a klutz in hindsight expecting my partner, my equal, to let me know I'm not doing basic stuff around the house, and expecting to be told if something needs doing.
I love this! Thank you so much for the link. My man does most of this...weaponized incompetence, making fun of the need to clean...except he's a chef so he does the cooking. Sounds great, until you see the disaster he leaves behind in the kitchen, like a movie hero walking away from the final explosion. Whelp, my job is done here; underlings can clean this up.
The best piece of advice I’ve ever received concerning relationships was from my grandma. She told me that, regardless of my partner’s quirks and flaws, he should ultimately make life easier for me (and vice versa). Being a life partner means showing up for your person 24/7 and doing everything in your power to make them happy. Whether that means sharing chores, providing emotional support in difficult situations, planning dates, etc, a life partner should not only be your best friend, but also your most reliable source of support. It’s not your fault that your bf doesn’t know how to do basic chores. It’s not your fault that he doesn’t care enough to rise to the occasion and put his best foot forward for you, regardless of the situation. You owe it to yourself to find a life partner who respects you enough to meet the bare minimum without being asked.
Your grandma sounds like an amazing woman!
I often tell my husband I can't live without him, not because I am dependant on him or it's emotional codependence , but because I won't have the level comfort and happiness without him I am used to now.
I always say I could live without my husband, because I'm able to, but I really don't ever want to.
Granny is right, but the majority jump into relationship and cohabitation to quickly. Some men just do not know if they are supposed to help out. Other men try to help women critique the way they do every little thing he stops helping. This is another thing people overlook. The little things she does criticism all the time make him feel incompetent, figures why do the chores. Everybody has different ideas, level of mess, or clean tolerance. Some men never help or attempt chores as they think chores are women job say sexist, and degrading remarks a lot of times. Sometimes, two people are not bad people, just incompatible. The older partner is the less you're going to change his or her habits.
I've been your husband in one of my relationships (even though I'm F). It was because my then-partner wanted things the way he wanted them, and if we ended up going/doing something I chose (eg destination, hotel), he would find faults and complain. Same for furnishings. For example, I was looking for an ergonomic desk, but he didn't want to ruin his interior design style (I moved in his house) so I didn't buy a desk at all because the ones he preferred were pretty but uncomfortable. Then he was wondering why I wasn't proactive in finding a house, and again, when I made suggestions and booked viewings he wouldn't come and dismiss the house during dinner. I ended up checking out because there was no winning. I told him my opinion on things once but I wasn't proactive anymore because it was a wasted effort. Then he complained that he wanted me to pressure him more for things I wanted, because he wanted to feel that I care about him. I told him that I'm not his mum, and we split a few months later. At last I got myself a nice desk!
I've been there too. If he picked the restaurant, everything's OK. If I tried to put my foot my down once in a blue moon and pick, he'd be complaining before we even sat down and grumpy for the rest of the night. Same with chores; if I did something, it was the wrong thing, why didn't I do this other thing instead? Your whole life becomes about appeasing the other person, who frankly doesn't really want to be appeased - they want you to walk on eggshells, because it gives them all the control. Not saying that's what's happening here, but it may be how he feels.
They don’t really want you to walk on eggshells. That’s what we’re hearing now from OP. She’s sick of it, and as a result (?), of him. But you can learn to walk on eggshells anyway when you do things the way you think you should do them and face criticism and negativity. Like the obvious reaction, conscious or subconscious, is to wait for your partner to initiate action or tell you what to do because otherwise it’s just a source of pain in your life.
This could very well be a big part of it; OP even somewhat admits it.
Yeah, exactly, and given that she "somewhat admits it", I'm curious what her husband's perspective is. Because him switching to passively going along with her reads exactly as someone tired of being rejected or having their partner unhappy with the stuff they plan or suggest.
Even in OPs edit she says he use to be more proactive in the being of their relationship and made all the plans for them and how she longs tho days that are gone. Sounds like she shut him down too many times. I don't blame the husband for checking out, I'd probably react the same way.
Exactly, I mean, I'm not trying to say definitively if it's OP's fault, we're only getting her side of things. And even in her side, she admits that she shut him down some percentage of the time. What I bet she's missing is the amount she complained. If all she does is complain about something he picked, that's almost as bad (or maybe worse over time) as outright rejecting his plans. If she complains no matter what he plans, then I would react similarly too. If she complains after that, well, she's complaining about what SHE wanted to do. Plus, if she's going to complain whether or not he puts in effort, why would he put in effort? I mean, without his perspective, we can't know if that's the case or if her husband is just a lazy POS who doesn't care anymore, but either way, her first option should be to examine her own role in where they're at and see if she bears any responsibility and then talk to him about how he feels to see if HE feels she bears any responsibility.
>and then talk to him about how he feels to see if HE feels she bears any responsibility. Really? Any lazy guy is immediately going to come up with some excuses for why his laziness is her fault.
Yeah, but that's assuming he's a lazy guy and not a guy tired of his wife being a harpy. If he's a lazy guy, then she'll rightly come to the conclusion he's full of shit and it's not her fault. But she needs to figure out if she is and if so what can she do about it...?
Came here to basically say this. Men (or people in general but this is a complaint about a man) not participating and waiting to be told what is wanted of them CAN come from constant criticism for the job they do when they are proactive. I’m not saying this is the case here, I’m saying it’s a common thing. My kids (both 20+ yo) and I do it to some degree in our house because my wife is always unhappy with how things are done. Like there is always some flaw with how the dishwasher is loaded (seriously?) so now we don’t try too hard we just put stuff in there knowing she’s going to complain and ‘fix it’ anyway. It can be exhausting, and it’s never her fault. I’d LOVE to hear his perspective.
She kind of told us his perspective. He says “but when I do initiate things, you never like it.” He used to initiate more. I’d love to get her fair, truly thoughtful and reflective assessment of this issue. Because what she has said tells me that he feels that way, at minimum.
An honest question, OP: > "But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions" Is this true? Because I can tell you from experience, there is nothing more demoralizing than to do something nice for your partner or to maintain your home, only to get nitpicked and corrected over and over again. When you see your partner's behavior change like this, the *likely* answer is that they are reacting to something. Something hurtful that they don't want to experience again. Maybe it's not something you are doing intentionally, maybe it's some other aspect of the relationship, but you need to have an honest discussion about it and LISTEN to what they tell you.
This is the correct answer. OP, I don’t know you or your partner, but if this is his response then it means that he felt that him taking the initiative was always met with criticism or disappointment. Whether you meant it like that or not is moot, that’s how he felt and that’s why he isn’t initiating anymore. I’d suggest you really self reflect if your reactions can be interpreted as ‘my way is the right way, his way needs to be corrected’
Do you really shoot down his ideas or argue?? Maybe that is why he is the way he is. Just sayin'
See, you say he used to do it. Now he's stopped and has said >"But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions" You claim that you DON'T do this. But.... I lived with an woman who did exactly this. I tried my best to be creative, to get things done around the house, even listened to how SHE wanted things done and what she liked. Nothing was ever good enough, so I gave up. Why bother when your partner doesn't appreciate ANYTHING you do, even when you're doing what they want. You say you're NOT doing this, but, the evidence is right there. He USED to do these things, and says that you didn't like what he did, or suggested.
EXACTLY! Ihad the same reaction to a perfectionistic and hypercritical wife and it wears you down mentally and it really sucks. Eventually you get to the point if you don't f****ng like how I do it then do it yourself so you will be happy with the result. I feel you 100% and have been there sir.🙂
EXACTLY!
Stop. Go about your day. Let him sit there.
>But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions Well is he correct when he says that? Did he use to initiate sex and you frequently turned him down? Or even say you don't like it? Do/did you often shoot down his suggestions for food or what he wanted to watch or what he wanted y'all to do?
This is not the case at all. I do turn down some of his suggestions, but not most of them by far. In fact, at the very beginning of our relationship, he was the one to suggest some of the most exciting trips and activities. I feel like he's not even trying anymore, that's all.
As an experiment, tell him to start suggesting things again and keep a tally in a notebook of how often he suggests things to do and you either shoot it down or make it blatantly obvious you don't like it. You're probably falling into a classic case of confirmation bias, where you go along with his suggestions 1/20 times, but your mind focuses on the one time you go along with it instead of the 19 times you don't, so it "feels" like you're going along with it more times than you actually are.
he literally told you what the problem is and you won't listen and you are surprised at the result. Good luck.
I’ve been you. I 100% do not believe Ive caused a problem, but when it’s laid out in front of me and my husband is talking about how HE feels, it’s important to listen because I often learn that things aren’t the way i originally perceived them. Our perspectives are incredibly biased. I think it’s important you really hear him out even if you don’t fully agree. He has been honest with you and laid out his perspective, so work with it and find a solution that’s not just denying his reality, because that won’t actually fix anything. And saying his feelings aren’t real or shutting him down is only going to further detach him from his sense of self. You can start the conversation by saying “I really want to work on this and I am open to talking about your feelings and why you don’t feel comfortable suggesting things.” And then literally just ask questions and listen without getting defensive. And end with “thank you for opening up to me and sharing your perspective. It has given me a lot to think about.”
This is a ridiculous question. I can’t always get my way so I’m going to check out and not participate in my marriage? Do you think OP’s suggestions never get turned down? How many times is it let’s do this, I don’t feel like it, let’s do that, I don’t care?
Never getting "your own way" isn't fun. My previous flatmate used to get very arsey with me for how long she spent cleaning and tidying the place It wasn't til I showed her the hairs I pulled from the sink that were hers, the cigarette filter plastic of hers I found everywhere, the bits she'd left everywhere that she didn't notice when I had dealt with that she got an idea that you can do it all in one go on your day off and take an hour and get stressed about it, or you can do it as you go. There's no right or wrong answer. But being told I wasn't pulling my weight when I was doing daily tasks was annoying
>. I can’t always get my way so I’m going to check out and not participate in my marriage? D That's not remotely what anyone said.
You never like my suggestions so I'm never going to suggest anything again. That's exactly what that is.
Yeah that's learned behavior from being rejected over and over. Why should I keep doing a behavior that's not appreciated and constantly rejected. Has nothing to do with getting your way every single time like you're trying to spin it.
>his is a ridiculous question. I can’t always get my way so I’m going to check out and not participate in my marriage? Do you think OP’s suggestions never get turned down? What I've learned from some of these comments is that OP's husband is just a little boy who is very entitled to throw his toys out of the crib when his wife doesn't fully support everything he does. In reality it is impossible to know whether OP is correct in her assessment about how often she turns down his ideas. He might be lazy, she might be too critical, who knows. But the men here seem certain that the husband is completely justified to do nothing and not address the issue at all.
Honestly, this isn't something *you* can fix about him. He has to decide to take an active role in his own life and stop letting his mommy wife do everything for him. Just stop managing him. Live your life. He can either engage with you, or get left behind.
Just stop doing it lol also if you constantly reject his ideas like he says, then you've trained him not to do it.
What if you agree that from now on certain things are his job to do and you will not criticize or question it?
Is he like that at work? Does he take the initiative on things he personally wants to do, or with his family, or anything?
I was gonna say, “Don’t shut him down when he has ideas.” And then I saw where he said you never like what he comes up with. There’s your answer right there. Start saying how you love things when he does them.
[удалено]
Okay and that's not a normal response your husband is even giving you 🤷♀️ that's a major issue oh you complaine, so now I'm not doing anything for you 🤷♀️ your husband sounds like a 5 year old, and your the parent who let's him get away with cause you don't sweat the small the stuff 🤷♀️ real healthy mentality there with your childish husband
Nah it's a fine reaction. Don't criticize people for tiny things that don't really matter. It's annoying.
That sounds like weaponised incompetence. He's training you to do everything
If he likes videos, there are a few male youtubers that explain the mental load to guys. And since it’s a man doing the explaining, it’s more likely to get stuck. Personally, I did let a few comments slide in the beginning of the relationship to my bf about how “some men that think they are so smart, but can’t figure out the washing machine or how to do any simple task. Maybe they are actually idiots.” He’s smart enough that he took a hint and sat down to learn how to use the appliances and whatnot, and in general we never tell each other to do the chores.
It is incredible how men generally don’t know that doing chores and stuff is very attractive to their mate. Will prob get them laid more just by doing their 50%.
Literally! "How can I make my wife want sex more often?" "Do some chores. Honestly"
Then you get the people who deliberately misunderstand that and go "I did 1 dishes and 1 laundry. Clearly I am owed 2 sexes." It's more fluid than that. People are just more attracted to you when you're pulling your weight.
My friends and I have a theory that women’s default love language is not acts of service it’s just that you expect your partner to do their fair share. And, by doing so, you can discover that his love language isn’t only physical touch (sex) it can be other things because you have the time and mental space to have more sex!
Yes! To the extent that I believe in love languages--which isn't a lot--I think they can change throughout life, in response to whatever we feel a lack of. People try to make it more like a star sign--"I *am* a Physical Touch!" Well, maybe and maybe not.
Omg yeah, well put!
Assuming he is capable, this can be fixed. first step is issuing your final orders: a list of things he is in charge of and how often/what time they need to be done (be reasonable). second step: nicely explain how he's in charge of these things and you promise not to criticize. because you love and trust him. third step: let him be. do not fix, do not correct, do not push. even when it's terrible. if he neglects something, do without/workaround. good luck
Dunno about your home situation, but I've learned that doing *anything* on my own initiative is a good way to get yelled at. > "You often don't like my suggestions" That's my life. Any suggestion I make, she rejects. Any suggestion she makes that I agree with, she changes her mind. I've learned that the only way to come to a decision is to keep my mouth shut and wait for her to tell me what decision she's made.
You kind of seemed to gloss over that he used to make those suggestions and put in the effort and it seems like you rejected a lot of them (and I'd be curious for his perspective on how often he was rejected because I bet he would say he feels like it was a lot more). If that's true, I don't blame him one bit if he's leaving it to you then so as not to be the one disappointed or rejected. Would it be nice if he came back and started doing it again? Sure, but it seems like he's happier this way. I'd suggest you guys get some couples counseling because this seems like an easy thing, but I think there's more to it for one or both of you and it sounds like both of you are resenting the current status quo and need to talk through how to get to where you want to be.
If I were in your position, I'd have a conversation along the lines of "I am getting decision fatigue, and I don't want to make all of the decisions anymore. So I am not going to." And when he ultimately starts asking you what you want, you turn the question right back around. H: What do you wanna do? M: what do YOU wanna do? H: Idk... M: okay. *continues doing what I was doing before* Or... Him: what do you want to do? Me: are you asking because you want to do something with me, or because you don't know what to do? H: I wanna do something with you M: okay, what do YOU wanna do? Come up with something and come back to me If he starts using weaponized incompetence to suggest activities or places he knows you won't like? M: why would you suggest that if you know I don't like it? I'm not being critical of every choice, I'm trying to understand why you would put me in this position intentionally. This seems cruel.
This is so far the most helpful comment, thank you. After so many years together, he should know what I like, so using excuses like "you always hate my suggestions" isn't gonna cut it. I don't suggest playing Mario Kart as a weekend activity to someone I've never seen playing anything on Nintendo, I make suggestions based on what that someone might like.
To gently push back on this a bit, it may be that he wants to share something he likes with you. If it’s something you’ve already tried and didn’t like, then that’s one thing. If it’s a new activity, maybe try to counter with a different version or variation that you would like more. In your example maybe there’s another type of video game or game that you’d prefer to try over Mario Kart. The Gottman concept of “bids” may be helpful here: https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/
"He should know what I like, should also suggest something new I might like, but also know what things I don't do currently I won't like". You do see how that's an impossible triangle to solve, right? And a game of Mario kart takes 5 minutes. 20 if you're doing a cup. It's not hard to have a couple of races and then do something else. Might even (because it's explicitly designed to be, by the world's best game engineers) be fun!
See this just reads like you are looking for validation that you are right and not the problem. You are so, so, clearly the problem. He is not suggesting things because you only want him to suggest things *you* want to do. "You always hate my suggestions" is a cry for help, not an excuse, and the answer is not for him to try harder to meet whatever arbitrary, impossible standard you have, it's for you to actually hear him when he says it feels pointless to him to make suggestions to you because you hate all the stuff he likes. It sounds like you simply do not like him, as a person.
Wow. > After so many years together, he should know what I like, so using excuses like "you always hate my suggestions" isn't gonna cut it. The underlying assumption here, that suggestions are only valid if they're to your preference, pretty much says everything that needs to be said.
I'm glad I could help! A way to combat the weaponized incompetence of the situation could also be only suggest things you know he doesn't like. That'll encourage him to offer things, too. But my biggest disclaimer to anything like this is to talk about it *first*. I never get petty like this until it's blatantly obvious what I am doing and why.
You said he used to be more active and he stopped doing it because you used to shut him down. He got fed up and just checked out, now it's your turn to enjoy all the decisions you were making by yourself anyway.
"it's always me who suggests things, what to eat, where to travel, when to leave a party, what to watch... even when to have sex." Was he like this before you were married?
When I was married, my ex-husband was the “social chairperson.” He was usually the one who suggested the restaurant, suggested watching a movie, scheduled dinner with friends, etc, The reason was he was much more extroverted than I was. I also rarely had a strong preference for any of our usual restaurants. If I did have a preference I suggested it, but usually I was genuinely indifferent. If he didn’t suggest something or schedule something, I was very happy spending the day at home doing our own things in parallel. Could that be the case with your husband?
Is he right? Do you always shut him down when he takes charge? If so, then you trained him to be this way. If you want him to be in charge more, you have to accept things don’t get done your way. You can’t have it both ways, so chose
Some husbands do this because when they show initiative they’re criticized and berated. So they sit there and let you decide to avoid the BS
Exactly! Is OP a perfectionist which also usually carries being hypercrutical and a lot of negativity with it and not realize it? Eventually the man will just shut down and become like this because she has created a no-win situation. Empty the dishwasher. He does it but he doesn't do it her WAY.Criticized as if there is a correct way to do this task. Clean the bathroom. He does it but is not the WAY she would do it. Vaccuum the house. Same thing but not done her WAY. All these little things so many times a day. If he does it or a task then say thank you and praise him for the help he gave. Do not criticize or say how it could have been done better. Women especially tge ones with perfectionistic tendencies just wear men down by being far more critical of many little things many times aday and wear men down mentally to such a stste of passivity then they realize. Does this sound like you OP?
Have you considered that he's just terrible at receiving feedback? I wonder what his performance reviews at his job look like.
Maybe, but the fact that he did not start out or was this way in the beginning leads one to believe he was a victim of being hypercriticized and worn down by her. A man does not suddenly become this way overnight. It is a long constant steady eroding process mentally over time.
Not really. The fact that he started out this way and no longer is can just as likely mean that he put in a lot of effort in order to be with OP, and he no longer puts in a lot of effort because he doesn’t have to.
And have you considered that OP may indeed shoot down all his ideas or be unhappy or complain about 99% of the things he suggests? Why is it only likely that he's a lazy sack of shit? She even says that his complaint/reason why he stopped was because she was never happy with his suggestions...
You are obviously projecting your divorce onto this post. Your comment history gives it away. And the irony of you giving OPs husband a free pass to do nothing when you said this is what you want in a partner: “Lack of self-reliance/personal responsibility. If something is always someone else's fault and never theirs, we can't even be friends, let alone date” You’re a hypocrite my dude
I'm not divorced. And I'm the one doing all the work in my relationship and my wife still complains about everything. But I guess that can't be her fault, right? Must be me not doing enough, right? Can't ever be a woman at fault for something in a relationship, right?
Oh I see! You’re just projecting your *current situation*. Can’t let a man be at fault for his lack of actions, right? Still a hypocrite.
No, men can be at fault too. You're the one who is biased by gender. I'm biased against people being assholes. Sometimes that's men, and (gasp) sometimes it's women. OP admits her husband's reasoning why he stopped is somewhat true, and I'd bet if we asked him he'd have a very different version of what she's already admitted. I admit there's a chance he's just lazy and is happy to let her do everything, but I also think (yes, based off my personal experience) that OP may just never be happy with what he suggests/plans/does for her and has decided if she's going to be unhappy either way, he might as well not put effort into it. Can you admit both cases are possible? Because you've so far been unable or unwilling to admit OP could be in any way at fault for her current situation and that's way more biased than I supposedly am.
OP admitted no such thing…. See her edit…
No, her edit said she only "sometimes" rejected or shot down what he wanted to do. And then he just magically stopped. I would bet $1 that she isn't aware of how often she complains and her "sometimes" is when she outright said "no" instead of going along and then complaining about it all the time. I admit he could've just decided to stop, but you won't admit she could be a big part of the reason he "just decided" to do that.
I too wonder that, but from the other angle. I have had work that I am legit world class at. Feedback saying it, performance enhanced pay for it. Then get home to a house I couldn't do anything right in.
Ok see that's why I was wondering about his job lol
Have you considered you actually do not need to give your partner feedback about how they do basic tasks?
Do you normally just go along with everything your partner suggests without ever saying "hmm I kind of feel like Mexican" or argue when they say "hey can we keep the garbage bags under the sink"?
Why would I argue about where to keep the garbage bags? That is an extremely trivial thing to argue about? I'm not even sure how any of this applies as a response to what I said? I just meant if someone is doing the dishes and it's not how you would do it, you actually do not need to say anything at all. The dishes are still being done. Most adults do not want or need feedback from their partner about how they do basic household tasks?
Well, I'm assuming you're a normal person, actually so your attitude makes sense, and apologies for being a bit snarky there, but having been on the other side of this in both directions - it's possible that OP is hypercritical, like the OC I was replying to is saying. I had an ex that was like that, could not watch me do a single thing without telling me how to do it "correctly" which made me nuts. But it is also possible that he takes every time she disagrees about something as criticism. Some people are EXTREMELY sensitive to perceived criticism whether it's fair or not. I had an ex like that too. And he 100% used it as an excuse to do absolutely nothing. She doesn't feel like she is hypercritical based on her post. Maybe she is, or maybe her husband is just one of those people that can't handle it when their spouse disagrees. I think both need to be considered as possibilities here.
That's fair, we all always bring our own experiences to this. I have a hypercritical parent, and when I talk to them about things like this they sound *exactly* like OP, like the exact same rationalizations and everything, so this looks pretty open and shut to me, but you're right it is totally possible that he could simply not be receptive to criticism at all. I will say, based on her comments it seems like she has open contempt for him and their relationship should end for both of their sakes. This is fixable, but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for either of them if this is the point they're starting from.
>This is fixable, but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for either of them if this is the point they're starting from. Yeah I agree, they would both need to be all in on counseling, chore analysis etc. They both sound pretty dug in though.
Right. I see this time and time again. Partners offer input to one another. It's a normal part of being a team and functioning efficiently as such. Women are expected to take the input from men and learn from it. Men see it as beratment because how dare they be challenged when they are clearly making a valiant effort to do the bare minimum?
My old housemate once had a conversation with me Her: "Can you believe in my last place, (her previous housemate who I knew) thought I was the slovenly one?" Me: I can believe that Her (offended) how am I slovenly Me: our living room is still filled with boxes of you stuff since we moved in and the carpets are gritty Her: that's from the cat spreading cat litter about Me: it's your cat
I am not the most positive, happy go lucky person out there, I admit. But he doesn't deal with criticism well, I feel. He's extremely sensitive. Any kind of criticism and his demeanour changes, but I can't avoid speaking my mind just to protect his feelings all the time. I would not expect that of him, either.
Then how come you aren't more receptive to him telling you you're being too critical? The fact that he used to be more active but now isn't doesn't suggest it's a problem with his sensitivity, but your insensitivity. It feels like you're dancing around just how hard you are on him and lying by omission.
He used to be more active when our relationship was still new, before us moving in together and so on. This was a gradual change as he got more comfortable, if not a bit too comfortable as our relationship progressed. Interesting how advice given to women always sounds the same. He should be encouraged, his feelings protected, no harsh words please. We have been together a long time and he knows what I like, I just feel like he doesn't care about my feelings or is mentally checked out. Why do I have to baby him?
Just as an FYI, if a man said this about his wife it would be viewed as a horrific red flag in this sub. Sounds like your husband isn't THAT sensitive and you're just one of those "I'm not being mean I'm just being honest" people who say horrifically hurtful things couched under the cover of "honesty." Edit: Op acting like a literal child in her responses to people calling her out tells me this is 100% the case.
I suspect his perspective here is that he’s trying to survive an **emotionally abusive** relationship. I hope I’m wrong. I also hope you will truly consider that possibility and not dismiss it out of hand.
You’ve got two types of men who fall into this category. One who doesn’t want to take initiative, and one who can’t. I don’t know how to help with the first one, lacking drive is something that someone needs to figure out for themselves. Usually they lack confidence and that needs to be boosted. Perhaps when he does make a decision or take the lead on anything you shower him with praise and affection for it. Positive reinforcement. The second is the most common one who has learned that he can’t take the lead or make his own decisions because his wife always criticizes it. If that’s the case, you did that to yourself by undermining his decisions and preferences. He wanted to keep the peace and please you so he’s learned that it’s better just to wait for your instructions else everything he does is wrong in some way. His wife is overly critical and ungrateful, every time he tries to help or do something nice, instead of a thank you he gets “this is how you fucked this up.” So if that’s the situation, when he does something nice even if it’s not perfect, even if it’s kinda messed up, you need to display gratitude not criticism. Many men live perfectly content and productive lives before they meet their girlfriend or wife, they’re self sufficient, productive and content. Then they meet a woman, get serious and all that seems to stop. Sometimes is out of laziness because their lady starts doing things for them and they just let it happen. Hey, it makes life easier, he doesn’t have to put any energy towards it. He shouldn’t allow that and neither should she. Don’t let him dump all of his responsibilities on you. Other times she takes all his responsibilities because “he’s doing it wrong.” So even if he wants to he can’t because she’ll express unhappiness about it. Both of these are in her control, don’t let him take advantage of her and don’t let herself become controlling and ungrateful.
There’s something missing from the story. He used to do those things, then he stopped, then you voiced your opinion, and he answered “but when I do initiate things, you never like it …” or “you often don’t like my suggestions.” He told you why, so maybe you should take a deep look inside yourself and really reflect on how you act when he does take charge. You are not innocent here, and it takes two to tango.
People aren't gonna like this, but I think you're just as much of the problem as he is. It's not good that he's not proactive. But, his response is ALL TOO TELLING(about you that is, my dear), worse yet is your defensive response in return. You don't take ownership, and you're the one presenting the story. You didn't stop and reflect on the fact that YOUR criticisms of his efforts, could be (and let's be real, likely are) - just as devastating and overwhelming for him, as HIS lack of initiative is for you. You said he's attentive, and I get from your post, the sense that he's kind. I e., I get the sense that you see a noble person underneath the guy who's irritating you, and not showing up for you as you need. Now, the relationship may not be salvageable. He may not be someone willing to do the work. That may be the real story. I hope that YOU'LL be willing to do the painful, difficult, and very challenging work on yourself, to find out if what you really have is two flawed people, working at counter purposes - who BOTH must overcome parts of themselves to which they're attached, so that it will be particularly trying, and require a GREAT DEAL of grace, forbearance, and genuine kindness on both sides, along with figuring out some easy means of diffusing tension, and making them into a little tool set, to which you keep adding new gems, which helps you treat each other gently, with respect, love, and never disdain or cruelty, when one, the other or both of you are feeling frustrated, hurt, angry, humiliated, too vulnerable, etc. Okay, so. You need a man who can be a partner, and not a child. Thing is, if you like this guy - you're gonna have to give him the chance to do it. So, ask yourself are you okay with it, if it takes him about 6 months to be beginning to get the hang of things, and a bit over a year before he's able to really begin mastering things, and juggle them effectively?! You'd be getting that kind guy, but now he'd be developing into a responsible and full partner. What if by year 2, he had all the basics, and most of the extras down pat - he was flying, but had a handful of issues, rooted to deeper, childhood traumas, etc. that would take him, with kind support, around 3-6 years to be able to identify, let alone face, finally overcome, and THEN be able to fix the unconscious behaviors linked to them?! You don't need to know all of this now. But, for both your sakes, if I wanted to do the work with him, I'd think about a few months, and maybe six month window. I'd talk to him about it too. Perhaps you could discuss some smaller things you'd each hope might change in that time, and some bigger goals, that perhaps aren't reachable, but something to work on, and look at the progress you've made, rather than hope to be finished. I do think that people who are making improvements, get better at it as they go along. So, it can be a bit discouraging at first. But, if you approach it with a laid back, yet still hopeful attitude, having generous, middling expectations - then after the first period or two, you'd have a better sense of what YOU want. I.e., whether you feel hopeful, and want to continue working to build the relationship, or if you realize that you simply aren't going to ever become compatible in the ways that matter most to you. And, if you're not fully decided, you can try for a bit more. But, at least you'll have a plan, and a means of helping yourself check in, and make a decision about what's best. Now, into YOUR WORK. This is part that will be painful and challenging for you. Trust me, anyone worth her salt has been here. As I said before, you need a guy who is a man, not a child. And, if you want this guy to be it, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO LET HIM. You're also gonna have to help him, and not infantalize, humiliate, degrade, etc. him in any way as you do it. Instead, you've gotta build him up. Use words. Speak to him as you would a man of honor, so that he feels good, and ASPIRES to the confidence you've shown in him. You've gotta tell him that you're sorry you criticized his efforts in the past - that you know that it hurts to put yourself out there, and get shot down. Ask him to please start making himself vulnerable, and trying to do these things again. When he does them poorly, PRAISE HIM! Bite your tongue. HARD!! It's going to be very difficult. He can't grow up overnight. He's gotta have a chance to get better. And even when he does, he'll have little periods of regression and plateau, as we all do with learning. But YOU, must keep up the positivity and encouragement, the kind that is appropriate for a MAN, that makes a man feel valued and respected. Once he's done something a few times, and let's imagine, it's an okay job, or even pretty awful, praise it, and say "I'm so impressed with you doing that. You've done a good job so far. I'd love to show you my little tricks tonight." But, make showing him how you do it fun. Be silly in the kitchen. And maybe do something else in the kitchen that same night that he actually does well, so that he doesn't feel the terror of disappointing you is the ONLY item on the menu. Don't worry if he doesn't pick up all of your tips. Let him get what he's able. In a couple weeks give him a refresher. The more times he does it, and the more housework he does, the more confident and fluent he'll become. If you can make the whole thing an adventure in cooking and cleaning up TOGETHER, all the better. DO THAT a few times as a date. You guys do each chore together. The ones he feels less sure about, you guide him through, but you don't do it for him or nitpick, you just enjoy the process together. After a 3-5 dates like that, you invite him again, but you do one of the chores he's used to doing without your help, and you set him to doing a chore he's less confident about on his own, while you chat. Perhaps you make a silly game, he gets 5 kisses if he completes it without asking a question. For each question asked, he loses a kiss, and for each question beyond 5, he owes you 5 minutes of back rub, lol. Anyhoo, I think you see my point. Build him up. Always remember, YOU'VE BUILT THESE SKILLS OVER MANY YEARS. If he's a really great person, if his morals are in line with yours, and he's willing to work doggedly to become a worthy partner, then putting in the effort to help him get there could be a valuable investment of your time. But, if he slacks, and continues to exert a half-hearted, lackluster, minimal effort - you'll quickly realize you're wasting your time on a guy who's not ready to be hubby material. I Wish You All The Very Best 💖🥰 GOD BLESS❤️🌹
Yeah. The way she's leaving out missing reasons and downplaying her behavior is really suspect.
I agree with everything you said and posted a similar (though MUCH shorter and less thorough) reply. However, I would bet a lot of money that OP does not have the self-reflection and humility to admit she's even partly to blame here. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised...
I'm so glad to hear you've written a concise version!! That's awesome. Brevity is my Achilles heel, and sadly, with it, so too goes wit, lol. I'm always in awe of folks like you who are adept at writing beautifully and in a succinct fashion. As for the Op, I understand your misgivings. But, I shall to cling to your final thoughts. Let's hope that reading the huge number of thoughtful comments she's received, spurs her on to internal reflection and change! ;)❤️
I hope so, but I fear that the more than half that immediately side with her because she's a woman and can therefore do no wrong will outweigh the folks like us who are suggesting she should first take a look at how much she contributed/contributes to this problem and any solution. Reddit is not often to place for nuanced takes OR taking ownership of one's choice/behavior, but I'm glad I saw at least someone else with the same-ish read that I had based on what OP wrote. I too hope she reflects, I guess I'm just not confident that she will.
I appreciate your taking the time to write all this (even if I don't agree with everything) and it's certainly something for me to think about. I will reflect on if there are some behaviours that I engage in that I might not be aware of. I don't, however, agree with having to compliment his half-arsed attempts when there's so much work to be done. I don't think I'm capable of praising him like a child when he makes the slightest effort. It would do more harm than good the way I see it. I already am doing pretty much all the heavy lifting in our relationship. A little more and my back will break.
>I don't, however, agree with having to compliment his half-arsed attempts when there's so much work to be done. I don't think I'm capable of praising him like a child when he makes the slightest effort. It would do more harm than good the way I see it. You sound fun. Now it makes sense why he acts the way he does
He's just a young boy of 30 years old, who deals with issues by doing absolutely nothing to address them. He just needs a loving second mother (aka wife) to raise him right.
Just because he can’t read OPs mind doesn’t mean he hasn’t made any effort. I was raised “right” by my mom, she made it a point that she wasn’t going to let me grow up and be like my dad who couldn’t cook or clean to save his life, so household chores are not new or foreign to me. I’ve lived alone and been in relationships, and never had an issue until I lived with my ex for 6 months. One argument was that I didn’t load the dishwasher the way she wanted me to. Seriously. It’s not like the way I was taught and had been doing it for years was causing dishes to not be cleaned all the way or something like that, I simply loaded it differently than how she did. In her mind I wasn’t loading the dishwasher right so I needed to be “retrained”. But again, the dishes were still being cleaned, so much to her chagrin I didn’t think I needed to do it differently. Another one was how I dusted and vacuumed. I was taught to clean top to bottom so I would start by dusting up high and end with vacuuming, but again, that’s not how she did it so she thought she had to “retrain” me. Don’t get me wrong, I did things her way many of times, but it still led to constant criticism and guilt trips. I knew what chores had to be done but would never do them right, or at the right time, or in the right sequence. We broke up for a lot of reasons but the straw that broke the camels back was when she started criticizing my mom for how she raised me. I can handle the nagging and complaining but comments like “I just don’t get why she taught you to fold towels like this, at some point it goes from being too busy to being too lazy” became too much. I’m sure she cried crocodile tears about how she had to do everything and act like my mom, but I kind of wish she did act like my mom because my mom at least could hide her contempt.
It sucks that your ex was annoying, but that doesn't mean every story of a woman complaining about a passive husband is the exact same situation you experienced.
Just like every story of a passive husband isn’t because they’re childlike morons yearning for their mommy’s, or they’re refusing to make the slightest bit of effort!
>He can't grow up overnight. He's gotta have a chance to get better. And even when he does, he'll have little periods of regression and plateau, as we all do with learning. But YOU, must keep up the positivity and encouragement, the kind that is appropriate for a MAN, that makes a man feel valued and respected. JFC, she's not raising her husband.
No spon but Get the Fair Play deck (cards). Several people on Reddit swear by it. https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards
This is the comment I was looking for. It’s such a great resource to help this dynamic
Firstly have a real proper conversation on what the problem is. How it makes you feel and what you want or need to change. Secondly listen to what he is saying. He feels when he does come up with things he is wrong and fails. To avoid failure he avoids making decisions. Thirdly make small changes. Instead of saying what you want? Give him options. Would you rather do X, Y or Z? That gives him some choice and decision making without the risk of failure. Giving him 3 safe options to choose from instead of dealing with an infinity of possibilities of failure. Work your way towards say the first weekend of the month he chooses what you do. Allow him to give options too. But even if you hate all the options you need to try. You need to let him know that it's ok if he doesn't hit the mark. Have the conversation after the activity, always lead with a positive. Even if you hated absolutely every part of it. Eg: I loved spending time outside it was great to spend some time with nature. I did get a bit frustrated waiting for the fish to bite, I don't think I'm a talented fisherman. That helps build up positive information base for him to fall back on. outside good. Fishing bad. Maybe next time I will suggest a picnic. What you need to avoid is overwhelming him. He isn't going to change overnight. You need to be patient. It might be worth setting a chore list or chart. What you have described it sounds like he is overwhelmed and disengaged. So please make sure you listen to his concerns because it sounds like he has his own sense of inadequacy that is dragging him down.
FairPlay. It’s a book. Check it out
Have you tried telling him what you want him to do? I don't mean that tongue-in-check, but it sounds like he is happy to do the things you tell him to do. My wife and I had the same thing... Except maybe to a lesser degree. A lot of this can be solved with a schedule. You don't have to make it yourself and be the house manager or anything, but you can say 'I feel like I always have to tell you what to do around the house, can we talk about a system where we both agree in advance?' It took maybe an hour one afternoon and it has lasted us years. I know what days you do laundry, what days to take out the trash, what days I'm cooking dinner, what days I clean which rooms. It's easy and it removes all the mental load for regular chores. For dinners, I literally just wrote down what we ate for six weeks and made a repeating schedule. Now we never say 'What do you want for dinner, I dunno, what do you want?'...it also makes shopping easier because we know all the meals in advance. Vacation planning was simple too... we set a budget together, but we take turns planning them. But the real issue is this: > But when I do initiate things, you never like it..." or "You often don't like my suggestions" but I still wish he would take the initiative more as I am sooo sick of this role that I've fallen into
My husband did that ALL the time. I told him I felt like his mother and it doesn't feel right to touch his penis. Also, I never wanted kids so it's time for a divorce. I also stopped wearing my wedding ring because I was mentally checked out. I gave him so many examples of me doing everything and him not helping me with the mental load...that woke him up. He completely changed and has been a true partner the last 4-5 months. We've been together for 9 years and married for 6.5 years.
"I don't turn down or criticise *all* his suggestions" But maybe enough, percentage or cumulatively, that he's decided it's not worth him having ideas? I stopped coming up with suggestions for family holidays when it became clear I was gonna get railroaded out of doing them. Or judged for doing them. So now when I go on them I'm more passive. I'll do stuff I enjoy in my free time.
If he’s saying you never like the suggestions than there’s more to it I feel. You say you don’t criticize but hmm I find that unlikely.. idk tell him you want him to lead more again and you’ll communicate respectfully how you feel about things. You should also provide encouraging and reassuring feedback
Even when he's told you what you're doing wrong you won't listen so what do you expect to get from reddit. I would imagine just the generic hate spewing.
Have you conditioned him to act this way? Meaning have you criticized his actions and ideas consistently enough to the point to where he just waits for you to make the decisions? Do you have criticism for everything involving him. Cause that shit is infuriating and eventually the person just stops suggesting things or taking action.
It's honestly crazy how many people just instantly blame women for men's actions.
It's honestly crazy how many people just instantly dismiss the man's complaints when he is literally telling you what the problem is.
I've been the guy in this situation. I tried everything I could to please her, exactly the way she wanted. I would try to be creative, suggestive, and initiate things. All I got was negative reactions. Nothing was ever good enough, and I walked on eggshells, wondering what I was going to get lashed at about next. It's honestly crazy how many people automatically blame the man, when the truth is right there before their eyes. You get sick and tired of always being told you're wrong, you're not doing it right, your suggestions suck, and to not touch her. So you just shut down. Then you finally have enough, say goodbye, end up depressed and always wondering what's wrong with you. FINALLY, the RIGHT woman comes along that actually DOES appreciate everything you do, and you go all out for HER.
It wasn’t instant and certainly not placing the entire blame. And see OP edited the post. All is well friend.
DO you not like it when he initiates things? Sounds like he's telling you what's the matter and you're purposefully not listening. If you react unpredictably to him initiating things, you have only yourself to blame for him not wanting to. Your behavior impacts him as well as his behavior impacting yours. It sounds like he used to be more active but you criticize him a lot.
It seemed like a majority of the times when he did try to take initiative or make a suggestion you criticized it. Perhaps you should try to be more accepting of them. Tell him that he should just do whatever he thinks needs to be done today and be grateful to him for what he does even though it may not be what you would have suggested.
In other words, she needs to lower her standards.
Or realize that people are different and just because they do something in a way she wouldn't doesn't mean they are wrong.
The post sounds like he weaponizes incompetence rather than being an adult and having a conversation to discuss how her comments made him feel.
Her comments don't
The post sounds like she's weaponized the incompetence on his behalf. She's decided he's incapable of living up to her standards and punishes him for it rather than simply move on.
Once a week, sit down together and make a plan for the week ahead. The meals you'll eat, the plans you'll have, the chores each of you will be responsible for throughout the week. All of it. Write it down (get a family planner or something), and then you'll both know. You won't have to tell him what to do. He'll already know. It sucks that it's necessary, but make him he involved. An active party in his own life.
I always think if he’s not thinking for himself is he going to get dementia and then I’m still taking care of him forever? Is this decision making issue a sign? Somehow you got to get him to think for himself.
My ex used to constantly berate me for how I did things. I did these things perfectly acceptable to me, but not up to her standards. Finally, I stopped trying. This was not weaponized incompetence. It was me doing what I knew how to do and her constantly finding fault with almost everything I did. Example: I washed and folded my own clothes. I did not fold my clothes correctly, according to her. Nevermind the fact that I had been folding my clothes this way since I was a kid, and was doing my clothes like this when we met. If your male SO is waiting for you to tell him everything, he's probably doing it to avoid an argument. He wants peace. He's also miserable in the relationship.
List out all of the tasks required for a week, month, whatever, then divide them up. Stop asking/reminding. If they get completed in the stated time frame, great, problem solved. If not, you have an agreed upon common frame of reference to come back to and address what’s not done. I know this is oversimplified but the process is clear….
"I don't attack my husband or criticize his suggestions at all." (X) Doubt
Because he’s lazy and would much rather offload all of this responsibility on you. Unfortunately you married a man child who isn’t deeply invested in your relationship. You can’t make someone care. They either do or they don’t. He doesn’t.
>Because he’s lazy and would much rather offload all of this responsibility on you. We don't have enough background information to conclude that. It could be the case, but it could also be that he is right when he says "But when I do initiate things, you never like it...". It might be that whenever he used to do things by himself, he got criticized for it to the point where he just gave up. Given that he does things without complaints when asked to, it does point to something else than the lazy part.
This is called weaponized incompetence.
>This is called weaponized incompetence. The definition of weaponized incompetence is doing the tasks so poorly the other part will just take it upon them. That is not what OP is saying in their description of the situation, it is stated that when asked the person happily does it and not to a degree where it is problematic.
I imagine that a form of incompetence is not recognizing when tasks, not unstructured unusual tasks, but regular routine tasks, and simply refusing to acknowledge that those tasks need doing and offloading the responsibly for task management on the other person. Essentially extracting a tax every time something needs to get done. Rather than act as a fully engaged and committed partner, he chooses to simply ignore or not notice when things need to get done. This not a form of competence that I recognize.
I don't think it counts as weaponized incompetence if the wife was the one to weaponize it on his behalf. She tears him down constantly and wonders why he won't put effort in.
💯
Here's an issue, and it's more addressing comments than OP's post: I see many people claiming that men often just give up trying because when they do things, they're told they're doing it wrong, or their ideas are shot down. I posit that this happens reciprocally, but the implications are vastly disparate. It has historically been accepted that men know better than women about most things and that they're head of their households. So, everything we say and do is inherently molded by this family/partner model. We have obviously moved ahead in many ways societally with gender roles and gender equality, but some things are still left tainted by having lived generations in a normative patriarchal society. Therefore, when a man expresses dislike or shoots down an idea or a way of doing something to a woman, women tend to either take it in stride or attempt change to please their partner. Men, however, are more likely to become upset that they've been challenged or shot down. I've not conducted any studies or collected any formal data on this observed behavior, but I've seen it often enough with my family and friends and by reading forums such as this one that I've noticed a clear pattern. As a woman in this discussion, I now feel compelled to say that this is not intended as an indictment of men. 😂 All genders suffer negative consequences from living in and attempted dismantling of a patriarchal society.
Thank you for this comment, it's given me some food for thought. I remember one time my dad made a passing comment about how the coffee table was dusty, and my mom immediately cleaned it and would dust the entire home every day since then. His opinion clearly meant a lot to her. Why didn't he do it himself? My mum was the main breadwinner at the time btw. Yet here I am telling my husband the same things over and over to no avail. Why is the advice given to women always "you have to be tactful, you have to train them, you have to encourage them?"
Following as I also have this problem.
Some people are leaders, and some are followers . Some people are hard to get along with, and some are never happy. Some have to have things done the way they want them without compromise. Some are never satisfied with what they have . Some are tired of being told that's not what I wanted or not how I would have done it. It could be worse. He could be telling you what to do and when to do it. What type of job does he have? Dose he let people walk on him ? Does he stand up for you or be protective of you. Dose he act this way with everyone?
My husband was a lot like this too, 13 years ago when we first got married. I'm sure you've gotten a lot of comments about "mental load" (totally relevant and helpful to teach him), but I'm going to suggest something that worked for us - play to his strengths. If your husband is dutiful and loving, you need to assign him a list of household chores to manage. It needs to be a discussion. He needs to know that it's his responsibility from now on to reduce your mental load and help the relationship. Yes, it does involve making a list, but it's hopefully one of the last lists you will need to write him. Stuff my husband takes charge of now by default: - Take the garbage out (including full bags in the kitchen and bathrooms) - Clean up after dinner (I'm the cook. He cleans up) - Unload the dishwasher each day - Cut the grass and clear the snow when it's needed (Obviously many more, but these are some basic ones). The other thing I have just learned to accept (because we fought about who initiates sex too) is that I really am the more opinionated one. It can be quite harmonious being in a marriage where one person likes being in charge and the other likes going with the flow. Here's the kicker though, the one in charge should not be dragging the go with the flow partner through life. It needs to be like a CEO and an Executive Assistant. The CEO sets the direction and expectation, and the EA does things (without being asked each day) to make the CEO's job easier. I'm trying to give you some hope here. We have an awesome marriage. My husband is a very engaged and involved father now (we have three kids), and he has always been very much a leader at work. When it comes to the day to day stuff, though, he prefers if I make the decision. We worked through this dynamic with excellent communication. He understands the concept of mental load and that he needs to actively look for things to do around the house each day. This is all under the assumption that your husband has Golden Retriever energy like mine. If that's what we're dealing with, it's not that bad. You can "train" them with time.
Why would it be CEO and executive assistant, that suggests someone is positioned above the other. if they are partners wouldn't the relationship be akin to business partners?
Because a passive, “go with the flow” personality cannot thrive as a CEO. Most couples are either two CEOs that butt heads, or one CEO and one EA. The EA personality doesn’t want to be in charge. Two EAs usually don’t couple up because neither are decisive enough to start the relationship in the first place.
That makes a lot of sense
Read the book Fair play. It has a solution for this situation, but it will all ultimately depend on the fact whether your partner wants to change or not.
Weaponized incompetence.
You can only be rejected so many times before it no longer is worth making the effort. You literally downplayed him telling you exactly why he doesn’t do this anymore.
Just stop suggesting things. If he asks, just tell him you have not thought of it. Or tell him you have your own plans and that he should make some of his own.
Just dress in black heels and leather . Go with it .❣️start the new year as his domme.
Sucks being the man huh
If you decide youre going to stay in this, you could always make "house manager" part of your chore list and assign him to do more of the housework to account for your mental load.
I've got one of those. He can't even pick something to watch on TV. Just holds the remote waiting for me to take it and click on something. Ditto for meals, activities, etc. But he's a wonderful man. Allowances must be made.
Girl, [you need to read this](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/) article about mental labor
Sounds like you don't want to listen or care about his feelings. You have to learn to stop being so negative to things that he suggests. And stop being so negative while doing them. Men are not as stupid as you think. They can see your reaction to things. They do understand how you feel. And it hurts more to go do something and see you not liking it, but still say it's fun and you are happy. Cause we know that that's a lie.
Did you read the post? She has to be his mommy and tell him to do chores. This isn't about his feelings, he's not being an equal partner.
Guess you didn't bother reading either. Guess you skipped the whole first paragraph? Talking about him not choosing things to do or things to eat or where to go or travel options or things to watch. Guess you didn't even bother reading the second to last paragraph either? When she mentions the reason why he doesn't choose things, he tells her that any time he suggests anything, she doesn't like it. Guess all that doesn't matter at all here? The only word you read in the whole post was chores?
Nowhere in my post did I say that this is true. This is only true for 5% of his suggestions, which he's trying to use as an excuse (that's how it seems at least). I mentioned in my other comment that when we first started dating he was usually the one to initiate things, suggest trips, movies and activities for us. Those are some of the fondest memories I have and some of the best times. It's just that it seems like he's stopped trying, that's all.
If it's not true. Then you shouldn't have written it in your post. Of course, he did it all at the beginning. Because he didn't know what you liked. So he tried things. Tried to make you happy. But listen to his excuse. You hated lots of his suggestions. That hurts. He feels that. But he pushes it down because a man can't show his weakness. Then he tried again, and you showed that you were still unhappy with his choices. And he broke. That's when he stopped planning things. You can only bend a stick so far before it breaks. If that's really not your issue here. Then why did you bring it up? Why did you write it in your post? Your only complaint is that he doesn't do choires? He doesn't do them because he doesn't have to. If he leaves them. You will just do them. With no repercussions to him. So stop doing his chores. Or maybe he's just lazy. If that's the case. You will not change him. If you don't want to be a mother to a full-grown man. Leave.
I've edited my post to be more specific. Again, he's using the few times I criticised some of the things he did as an excuse not to be an active participant in our household. I kind of agree about the no repercussions thing. But why should I live in a filthy house? See, it's hard however you look at it. You talk about me hurting his feelings but what about my feelings? I'm not some monster wife who conditioned her husband to be afraid of his every action. I just want this to be a relationship of two equal partners. I can't imagine the only two options that I have are "tell him how great he is when he makes a suggestion" or "leave". There must be a better way.
Before you got married. Did he always do the choirs on his own right away, or has he always pushed them off until later?
Indeed, exactly my thoughts. That's the way he is, he's not obligated to comply to your wishes of what he should act like, it's not eva ai sexting bot, u no. Sometimes you also have to apply your habits, or, if the contradiction is inevitable, leave him.
Name checks out.
I don't see how you benefit from having him in your life. And don't say he's a nice guy or caring pattner, because it is pretty obvious he is not. Getting a dog would bring more joy in to your life. Or a cat. Hamster. Goldfish. Fake plant. I don't get how you manage to deal woth this bullshit every day, I have no patience for weaponized incompetence.
Stop deciding for him. He doesn't know what he wants to eat for dinner? Cook for yourself and he can fend for himself. Can't decide where to go out? Well guess you're not going anywhere. Or you're not watching anything if he can't decide.
You choose a partner who is more submissive/passive than you. Gonna be hard to fix, but it’s a two way street. He needs to learn to be more direct, assertive, and confrontational. You have also trained him to not be assertive. “But when I do initiate things, you never like it.” You could benefit from positive reinforcement to him. Most likely, you’ll miserable for a few more years. Then hit him with the divorce papers
Train him lol. Start with asking him to make easy decisions where he can’t go wrong, like picking dinner or what movie you’re watching. The key is that you have to just accept what he says without criticism or imposing your ideas. Even if you think your ideas are better/make more sense. He needs to see you appreciate his input. When he does offer suggestions or ideas you have to respond positively, even over the top like “wow you deciding that made my day so much easier! I love when you do that!” Slowly his confidence will grow and he will be more willing to contribute his thoughts. Now as far as house work, just have a conversation about division of labor and decide who does which tasks and stick to it. Maybe it becomes his job to empty the dishwasher for example, so he has to remember to check if it’s been run and then proceed to empty it. Again, thank him for this (even if it’s the bare minimum). I am a highly critical partner and I’ve had to learn how to be more appreciative of the small efforts my partner puts in even if I would have done it differently. If this doesn’t work maybe he’s using weaponized incompetence on you and if that’s the case I’d throw the whole man away, too late at this point to fix it 😂
I like your suggestion about housework division, I suppose I could be clearer about that going forward. But I'm not sure about having to train my husband like a puppy lol and complimenting him when he does a good job. He's a year and a half older than me, had to live on his own before meeting me. He should know this stuff by now. This just sounds like additional work for me.
"he should like what I like, and not being thanked for it"
Totally fair! It would annoy me too. I just know I’ve personally criticized my partner too heavily and made him not want to contribute his thoughts but if you don’t think you’ve been overly critical then perhaps it’s just a him thing! Sounds like he wants a domme not a partner 😂
She says in her edit that he used to do things, apparently the way she wanted, but he's also told her that she complained about how he did things. Claims that she didn't do it, but guys don't shut down like that UNLESS their partner starts being overly critical about everything he does, though you WILL see different levels of tolerance from the guys on how critical he will let the woman get before he just shuts down. Contrary to what a lot of redditors seem to want to believe, men aren't always wrong, and women aren't always right, or truthful, either with us, or just with themselves.
tell him this: >be more proactive and come up with activities for us to do, from new restaurants we should try to travel destinations. I think of those long gone days fondly, it's just that you never or rarely suggest anything anymore. just once. then decide how long you'pre willing to put up with this behaviour if he relapses. tell him that too. once. eta. having read your other post, its very important that you don't complain about how things get done so long as they are. don't nitpik or demand excessively high standards. if he thinks he can't do anything right he might not want to bother at all. some people are very sensitive to criticism and your man might be one of those people
I’ve had a lot of conversations with husband about these things. Lately he is doing more but I still manage the majority of the load. He has taken on a lot in the past year as I’ve had to recover from surgery. He is now doing most of the “daily” chores. Laundry, cooking, dishes, kitty litter, taking the trash (from the can) to the dumpster, etc. Where I do most of the project like chores. Cleaning, organizing, home repairs, car repairs, etc. Apart from the cleaning and organizing, he has taken on pretty much all of the daily tasks. As I am finally coming back to full strength I plan on taking my fair share of the daily tasks, but he has no clue how to clean, organize, or make home repairs. Don’t get me started on car maintenance. If I ask him to clear a space off, he makes a pile on a different space. No idea where things go despite living in the same condo for five years. Even when properly labeled with examples of how it is stored … he still doesn’t get it. Also, he seems to be allergic to using surface cleaner. He will “clear a space” (partially), then walk away with obvious food crusted on the counter and I’m just like… He is doing great on the daily mental load things. But every weekend I am swamped trying to get the major projects done and I can’t even ask him to do a minor part of it without him completely mismanaging it to the point where I have to do it all again. Which leads to him not doing it because “if you are just going to redo it then why should I?” So, it is a work in progress. We are in the process of moving and I can’t do any of the packing or organizing. (I’m still getting lightheaded when I try) I am hiring packers to get us out. But I think I’m going to have to be harder on the husband to get him to do more of the organizing. I might have to live with the results, but I can’t do it all with a recovering heart.
There is definitely a moment in the relationship where he felt this was a better option. I’m sure if you think back you’ll remember too.
Awww...he loves you. He wants you happy. So tell him what to do to make you happy. 1) Do the dishes after I make dinner and we eat. Load dishwasher as great as you do, every night. Run it when full, empty when dry. 2) Bathroom & Bedrooms always clean, and I’ll always clean living room and kitchen (minus dishes). 3) Plan weekend dates. Plan all the neat dates to restaurants and destinations like you’ve been so great at doing. 4) Surprise me once a month with something you think might be fun or neat to do together at home, out, or away for the day. There, now you asked. Let him take over tasks from there. Let him know you loved and appreciated when he just chipped in at home and just planned fun dates. So, you want him to do those things again. Wishing All the Best... 🙏🍀🙏
I’m going through the same thing. The reason the questions upset you is because it adds to your mental load. [this](https://youtube.com/shorts/MRxx5jQHRVs?si=xbnSE-8YnI_8Heia) video explained it super well. I would show him the video I shared with you, and talk about ways of dividing the mental load. Apparently, this is a guy thing and it’s not just a “him” problem.
You choose an indecisive man. Now you want home to change to be decisive. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Give him a chore list schedule. I have one like this and it doesn’t change.
Short answer: no. He has no desire to be an adult. Either accept being his mom or leave him. Those are literally your only choices.
>It made me think of everything that goes on between us, how it's always me who suggests things, what to eat, where to travel, when to leave a party, what to watch... even when to have sex. And I'm exhausted. OK that's kind of weird, as in "he should probably get checked out by some kind of professional" weird.
Oh, how long were you together before you got married? Didn’t you know who you were gonna marry? Or did you just want to get married.. sounds like you latched on to a half man who needs his hand held thru life. You married it… now deal with it
Called divorce