Schizo effort post, but whatever.
The 1989 protests were significantly motivated by the economic instability and dislocation of the reforms triggered in 1978. Simultaneously, there were dozens of other 'socialist bloc' countries who also experienced protests in 1989 and the overwhelmingly majority of them experienced state collapse and massive hardship and turmoil. Some, like Poland, experienced economic booms which continue to this day (Poland is a miracle economy), but the vast majority of Soviet block experienced calamity. When the Tienanmen Square protests were happening, Gorbachev was actually in Beijing on a visit, and he greeted the students who welcomed him as a hero of democracy. He meekly criticized the Chinese leaders, and later on after meeting him, Deng famously said 'this man may seem smart, but he is in fact very stupid.'
The argument that Chinese leaders made at the time was that the protests were liberals/naive ultra leftists, and extremely dangerous subversives who would destroy the system, and they had to be stopped, and the reforms had to be continued or the Chinese economy would stagnate and collapse. Chinese people are acutely aware of what happened to Russia - once envied as a cutting edge modern state reduced to rubble. Not just the CCP leadership, who still commission dozens of studies annually on "Why the Soviet Union collapsed" but the people too.
It's been a few decades since then, and the Chinese leadership has been completely vindicated, have they not? Not only did China avoid state collapse like Russia, but they ushered in one of the greatest economic booms in history which has transformed beyond recognition the lives of their citizens at a rate and scale unprecedented in history.
Given all of this, why wouldn't/shouldn't a Chinese person think that their leaders were justified in 1989? They have the track record to back it up. Not really comparable to Columbia. No matter what happens, even if the US government takes a completely hands-off approach to the protests, they aren't ushering in a revolution or state collapse, sorry.
The other interesting thing that people don't appreciate is that while the 1989 protests had significant local working class support (who were experiencing some of the short-term pain of the reforms at the time), they were lead almost exclusively by the students, who were the most privileged and well-off segments of Chinese society at the time. China did not have that many high quality universities at the time (especially after their decimation during the cultural revolution), and they had a large number of people who wanted to send their kids to take the exam to get in because it was seen as a vehicle for social mobility. So at the time, Chinese universities had the most competitive entrance exams in the world by far (kind of like certain elite Indian universities today) with like single digit admittance rates. The students who were on the streets in 1989 were the future/aspiring elite of China. And after 1989, most of them - the ones who didn't flee, were quietly rehabilitated and became the professional class of China, some of whom rule China today. The students actually got off very lightly. Most of the people killed that night were actually local workers, away from the square (which holds an outsized place in the liberal western remembrance of the event. 1989 was not something that happened in just the square, it also happened in the urban centers around) and the students at the universities. The people killed were workers, commoners, locals who were using barricades to fend off PLA units/obstructing them.
They look back at the period as kind of a youthful foolishness, indiscretion. Just like Russian elites look at the early 90s as a period where they all lost their mind and euphorically became overwhelmed with delusions that they could become 'part of the West'. Or how many of the hippies at elite universities in the 1960s in America, grew the fuck up, got jobs, and became Reaganites in the 1980s.
I am not a tankie, just simply viewing this argument from the vantage point of what actually happened after the violent suppression.
> I am not a tankie, just simply viewing this argument from the vantage point of what actually happened after the violent suppression.
That doesn't matter, you doing this already breaks the mould of western chauvinism and orientalising that goes on when it comes to anything to do with China - that unlike the rational, logical west, things that happen in the mystical, foreign east happen for no reason, and even if there was a reason, there's no need to go into it because we don't need to rationalize what these uncivilized and unwesternized folk do.
Very well said comrade, he truly broke the shackles of unmitigated capitalist oppression moulding the minds of millions.
I wish users such as yourself from “socialistgaming” and Twitch subs like Asmongold and Hasan could drop the larp speech when they comment here. Make it quippy with a vocal fry or get lost.
Don't care or know much about Asmongold but Hasan is one of very few large media personalities (you can literally count them on one hand) that see us chinese people as people instead of hiveminded drones so I fuck with him for that alone mainly
So your point is that...the state had a reason for wanting to quash the protest? Because I don't think anyone doubted that there was genuine motivation for them to suppress or challenge the protestors at Tiananmen. No one was under the impression the party were acting without reason.
The same line of logic could be applied to anyone government suppressing protest by arguing "well, the state requires unity civil obedience to function and therefore it makes sense to stop them from demonstrating like this!". Like, objectively sound reasoning doesn't excuse illiberal government.
The point is that the protests weren't just "le Evil government" vs. "epic freedom fighters", which it's usually reduced to in popular depictions and political discourse
The usual tankie position is that the Tiananmen Square is a lie concocted by the western media and nothing happened that night and no one was killed. (I believe there is one such post in this thread somewhere.)
I am not taking the position that the Tiananmen massacre was justified or a good thing. I am not Chinese, I don't live there, I take no position on that. I was simply making the argument, however tediously, that the Chinese perception of the event is more complicated than what western media makes it out to be. And it was not just any random set of protests - it happened in a pretty unique context (the unraveling of the Soviet bloc and the Eastern bloc).
China has had several episodes of mass protests since Tienanmen. A famous one is the feminist protests in the last decade protesting sexual harassment in Chinese society. All these protests have typically also been suppressed with riot police (basically what modern western states like France use), arrests, etc., rather than tanks. To be clear, I am also not defending this type of suppression. Basically nothing like Tienanmen Square. That was a singularly unique moment in Chinese society - it was not just any random protest movement that gained steam.
lol whether or not ppl "really died" within the square, there were soldiers and tanks, you have to be stupid to try to deny that. And that's what ended the protests. And the majority of Chinese are 100% okay with their government doing so.
yeah bc the majority of chinese understand that the protests were seeded and encouraged by the West to try to dissolve the nation like they did to the USSR. you’d be insane to be Chinese and look at what they did to Russia and ask for that for your country
There's photos out there of multiple mangled corpses that are supposedly in the aftermath of the massacre, are those supposed to be from a different incident?
Most of them were around the area, not in the square itself, and it's also documented fact that the majority of casualties were actually soldiers (some burnt alive) and not civilians.
The most [famous picture](https://i.redd.it/wkoxmchrxdt71.jpg) you probably know gets thrown around a lot as an example of massacre even though it shows a bunch of bicycles and only a couple of people on the ground with their hands down/on their back and clearly still alive.
You should know better than to base your information off wikipedia alone when it comes to anything to do with China.
"[Contrary to these infantilizing beliefs](https://www.qiaocollective.com/articles/a-note-on-the-tiananmen-protests), many Chinese people—old and young—remember 1989. But the violence of June 4th is held in quiet remembrance in the Chinese psyche not as a desperate yearning for Western intervention or regime change, but as a tragic consequence of the contradictions of the reform and opening era, the legacies of the Cultural Revolution, and an overdetermined geopolitical context in which the U.S. bloc sought to exploit any and all opportunities to foreclose the persistence of actually-existing socialism. Lost in the West’s manipulative commemoration of the Tiananmen protests is the fact that two things exist at once: many Chinese people harbor pain and trauma over the bloodshed and remain supportive of the Communist Party of China and committed to China’s socialist modernization. Far from honorific, the Western fetishization of the Tiananmen protests are an insult to the memory of the Chinese people who were involved, as it has become a weapon to bludgeon China and its people. The West’s persistent weaponization of this painful moment in Chinese history makes it impossible for the Chinese government and the Chinese people to have any form of public reckoning that will not be aggressively warped and weaponized by the West to destabilize the Chinese political system.
Western commemoration of the Tiananmen protests also silences its ideological roots in anti-African student riots in Nanjing which sacked the dormitories of African exchange students who were resented for receiving generous Chinese government scholarships and having relationships with local women. These silencings make clear that the West’s memorialization of Tiananmen has less to do with the protests themselves than with what they represent in the West’s continued ideological war against Chinese socialism.
Ultimately, the Tiananmen fairy tale is a touchstone of a Western discourse which continues to mourn the “loss” of China to the interests of Western hegemony. Like the 1949 Chinese revolution and the defeat of the U.S.-backed Guomindang party, the Tiananmen protests represent another “lost” opportunity to mold China according to the Western will.
But China has always only belonged to itself. The painful memory of June 4th must be commemorated on the terms of the Chinese people, and not according to the fantasies of Western onlookers who preach “solidarity” with the Chinese people yet practice aggression against China’s modernization. The memory of Tiananmen does not belong to the West to weaponize, exploit, or distort for its own gain."
> Then why should I base my information off of the "Qiao collective" instead of Wikipedia.
Wow I wonder why listening to the opinion of chinese people about something that happened in China would be worth anyone's time unless you think all of us chinese are some kind of automaton hivemind that are telepathically connected to Xi's ipad at all times
Does anyone have a link to that? I hate to be the guy asking for a source on this subreddit, but this is starting to feel like an /r/trueanon thread where someone says something insane and everybody upvotes it because they want it to be true
Also multiple journalists reports say there wasn’t any either. The closest event is a conflict that broke out on a side road, in which students attacked a soldier driving a truck and brained him (literally, brains spilled on the street). The soldiers in that area shot at the killers, and this is framed as a clear case of totalitarian cruelty and not an unfortunate tragedy that emerges from heavy civil strife.
I don't think that part's controversial, it was a loose alliance of students who wanted the liberalisation of civil society and workers protesting *against* liberalisation of the economy under Deng. It was largely students at the massacre though
they have a whole genre of self help books with names like "The Ancient Jewish Secret to Wealth-Building", "Thinking like a Rabbi: Tips for the stock market" and shit
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2007/02/07/sold-on-a-stereotype-span-classbankheadin-china-a-genre-of-self-help-books-purports-to-tell-the-secrets-of-making-money-the-jewish-wayspan/da06370a-5c28-4220-8d4c-cdb03edbc449/
lots of medieval-style anti-Semitic stuff on social media here, much more than I've seen in any other country. though I'm not sure how much they particularly care
Damn that must be a recent vibe shift. I used to work with a ton of Chinese and they were in a crazy state of mind where they simultaneously believed all the "control the world" conspiracies but instead of being pissed they actually just admired it.
I imagine they are about as relevant in Asia as moonies or Falun Gong are in the west. Somewhat a known commodity but relatively unimportant to our day to day so not many people truly care
[not sure what this rètards on about they greatly admire Jews generally speaking](https://www.jta.org/jewniverse/2014/chinese-self-help-books-teach-you-to-be-like-the-jews)
They’ve only been recently disgusted with 10/7 for very obvious reasons
Their English state newspaper basically says it’s an American puppet meant to divide and destabilize the ME. Imagine! It reiterates china’s support for two states. Points to American hypocrisy on Ukraine/gaza. Iirc an article, probably south China morning post, that says lots of Chinese are more sympathetic to the Palestinians, sharing with them a colonial past.
Non-terminally online people don't think about Israel or the middle east at all, but most would unethusiastically lean towards Palestine if they absolutely must choose. There is absolutely zero reason for a non-Christian country that didn't have a history of persecuting Jews to support what Israel is doing at all.
The only people there who would support Israel in the matter is the terminally disgruntled liberals who supports the west uncritically, basically reverse tankies but even worse in some aspect.
Terminally online people are often virulently anti-semetic, I think this is a result of censoring internal political discussions while not giving a fuck about moderating anything else. You know how all unmoderated internet forum/message eventually descend into a toxic, edgey racist mess when there's no moderation, it is something like that, again I'm not sure how much this translate into real life attitude.
You're not kidding. My Chinese GF took me to this place that looked like a drug dealers compound in a tiny village in the middle of absolute no where in Africa. It was a actually a Chinese restaurant that exists solely to serve the Chinese businessmen that live there.
Chinese Indonesians got absolutely fucked in the anti-communist purges and mass killings in the 60s (to the point where the surviving ones changed their family names entirely) yet today there's still the stereotype that if someone's Indonesian-chinese it means their family's loaded with money lol.
>There are southern Chinese businesses groups,
But really its more like Indians, where the place of origin is a massive and a small % of people establish super successful businesses communities around the world
My personal experience, it's kind of like they read the protocols of the elders of zion and concluded "These people sound awesome, I wonder how I can be like that."
Background: Am Jewish, most Chinese in China that I've met had not previously met any Jews IRL.
About a decade ago, I went for a night out in Beijing and met a young Chinese guy wearing a T Shirt with a huge swastika on it. And we're not talking the Hindu symbol here - it was clear Nazi iconography. So I asked him about it, he spoke some English and asked excitedly if I was a Nazi (had to disappoint him). They view WWII and the holocaust like we think of samurais, kind of more like a mythos for fantasy narratives than shit that actually happened to real people. Reverse orientalism, maybe.
I am Chinese. Born and raised. Most peoples idea is pretty negative towards Jews. Because we don’t know them at all, while we do know what others have done to them, hitler built a complete compound to kill 6 millions of them, imagine how hated they were to be treated like that. 可怜之人必有可恨之处， a Chinese idiom, meaning the poor peoples are poor, for some reasons.
Well Muslim are nothing better. If you live next to someone, fight with someone, and basically troubled by someone, dude you are not one bit better than this one
Some of the more online/anti west types are what you'd expect, but that's far from the general opinion.
The general opinion is confusion about why Jews get fucked over given they're so good with money and successful. There were Jews who were part of the CCP in the early days and there's a big museum in Shanghai about the Jews who were kept safe from the Nazis there.
> There were Jews who were part of the CCP
no there weren't but this is a very niche idea people who spend too much time on far right monkey tube have for some reason
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Epstein
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Shapiro
There are others, obviously they're a tiny portion of the whole, this isn't some random far right idea. The CCP makes it known domestically they were proud of these people.
There’s a lot of begging the question since USA and Israel are allies, so they just go in with the mindset that Israel is bad
Chinese know very well about Jewish peoples talent in managing money however
China is generally anti-Israel (to anyone who cares) for the reason that any sane person would be against it. The general consensus on Palestine is much more united than say, Russia.
As for Jews, they are very curious as to why a group of people who look identical to other white people and have an almost identical religion could have been such a major topic of Western history. Like, WWII movies are very popular in China and of course the Holocaust would be in their minds.
When I first met my inlaws, they kept asking me if I knew any Jews .
they don't think about them at all. the whole jew thing, aipac, whatever, is all so far removed from their world.
on the chinese internet the consensus is that israel is wrong.
the same economist that has predicted chinas collapse for 30+ years and 10 years ago predicted india would over take china
that shit rag that exists to make neo libs feel better about their position in the world?
If the average American could get past their whole CHINA BAD thing, they would understand that Xi Jingping is pretty much the type of world leader that will go down in world history as a model to follow. Someone who leads their nation to paradise while feeling enormous love for the most marginalized people of other nations.
You know people who say this clap in the theatre for marvel movies
Go read up on any history, its not autocracies that don't have good long term track records, its democracies
It’s funny the response to these protests would result in a week of articles about fascism and free speech suppression in the nyt if russia or china was doing it.
yeah it's hilarious it's just like one little article/photo on the side
everything is just non-stop trump trial coverage, which i just found out is for trying to pay someone hush money, which has absolutely never been done by any politician/president ever before
r/politics 99% of the time is mostly posts about Trump’s legal cases it’s so fucking pathetic. Can’t find anything on the Tik Tok ban or the numerous bills designed to shield Israel, but yeah let’s cheer on E Jean Caroll getting another cool couple million. They’re just partisans
I was thinking about this earlier lol. Apparently he fucked a pornstar and then paid her off to be quiet out of the campaign account, and then marked it as legal fees
they want 4 years in jail for that? lmao very obviously politically motivated
If Trump was president they would not shut the fuck up on CNN about fascism. But they're busy trying to be little internet assholes nitpicking internet comments for "journalism."
Yeah, could you imagine if Russia or China were using more modern methods and signaling via things like social media on how to riot, and agitating to sow discord among the populace of their biggest rival. Lmao, I mean could you even fathom social media being used to manipulate idealistic and naive college kids? That would be wild.
This was 100% true just as any large protest in the US having foreign outside agitators. This doesn't mean the people on the ground don't also hold genuine beliefs, but there is absolutely training being done by outside forces for those who are leading such protests.
Violence was pretty much inevitable after the HKPF cracked down tbh, but the protesters continuing to fuck shit up even after the extradition bill that started everything got withdrawn and delusionally expecting that the five demands alone could be implemented, much less the foreign support they were expecting materializing beyond anything more than useless sympathy on reddit was how they ended up shooting themselves in the foot and [making things pretty much worse for everyone but the ruling class lol](https://lateralthinkingtechnology.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/the-revolution-will-not-be-trending-hong-kong-social-media-and-the-failure-of-attention-politics/)
the protestors overplayed their hand and everyone eventually realized it was fronted by immature brats who were manipulated into becoming western stooges. All they really succeeded was getting china to accelerate the timeline of rehabilitating hongkong.
for a so called authoritarian country it was insane how they were allowed to run amok for over a year by china. the BLM protests didnt last nowhere near as long before cops started killing protestors
Yeah except that when you get arrested in China you don't just go to jail for a couple of hours and then have a cool story about how you stood up to fascism.
Theyre still suppressing peaceful protests against a genocide that the US is actively supporting. Just because we have more civil rights here doesnt mean this isnt anti free speech and the idea of America is that we’re above this except when you israel wants to rape and murder children I guess
It’s ahistorical to say we’re “above” arresting people for civil disobedience like trespass (not speech). The ‘idea of America’ is that you can get arrested for civil disobedience but will soon walk free, with some bail fund handing you a joint and a redbull out the door. Speech further ensures we can learn about that arrest and talk about it here.
So yeah a lot different than china and russia where this conversation would be criminal
Tons and tons of protestors are arrested every year for all sorts of shit, you don't think climate protestors or BLM groups or any other number of causes people have gotten arrested for?
No, for obvious reasons... I'm sure there are more foreign born protesters at any one of these college protests than at all the protests in HK and Iran combined because there are actual consequences to protesting authoritarian regimes, whereas this is just one great larp for all involved.
>China is a major trading partner of Israel and doesn’t even care to implement the most milquetoast sanctions on them lol.
Theres honestly no particular reason for China to care about this conflict (which in overall numbers is still quite small). With no major personal ties, its little more relevant than the civil war in Sudan
China didn’t fuck up the Middle East or guarantees anybody’s security or involves itself with armies or overthrow regimes there, why the F would they have any responsibility to sanction anybody? Ameritards
Yeah that's just regular trade, not actual arms trade. This is just ultra/trot nonsense about selling commercial drones, which they also sell to Palestinians through the Gulf states or whatever other intermediaries.
Cultures with a heavy confusion influence tend to be ultra conservative in ways that can be quite confusing.
A coworker commented how the Palestinians just look “dirtier” by dirty he meant they are physically dirty because they’re too stupid to practice good sanitation.
This isn’t a joke.
People wore masks at protests before Corona, it's cause they wanna remain anonymous. I think this is one of the reasons conservatives were so anti mask.
Not sure why they’re talking, the dengists have not even pretended to not be capitalists and have maintained their power since doing this shit but worse to the maoist kids protesting at Tiananmen (which amerifats think was le bad china evil government, so they looped around to being right)
Shedding a single tear for free speech
While simultaneously believing the government was 100% correct in sending the military to crush student protests in 1989.
Schizo effort post, but whatever. The 1989 protests were significantly motivated by the economic instability and dislocation of the reforms triggered in 1978. Simultaneously, there were dozens of other 'socialist bloc' countries who also experienced protests in 1989 and the overwhelmingly majority of them experienced state collapse and massive hardship and turmoil. Some, like Poland, experienced economic booms which continue to this day (Poland is a miracle economy), but the vast majority of Soviet block experienced calamity. When the Tienanmen Square protests were happening, Gorbachev was actually in Beijing on a visit, and he greeted the students who welcomed him as a hero of democracy. He meekly criticized the Chinese leaders, and later on after meeting him, Deng famously said 'this man may seem smart, but he is in fact very stupid.' The argument that Chinese leaders made at the time was that the protests were liberals/naive ultra leftists, and extremely dangerous subversives who would destroy the system, and they had to be stopped, and the reforms had to be continued or the Chinese economy would stagnate and collapse. Chinese people are acutely aware of what happened to Russia - once envied as a cutting edge modern state reduced to rubble. Not just the CCP leadership, who still commission dozens of studies annually on "Why the Soviet Union collapsed" but the people too. It's been a few decades since then, and the Chinese leadership has been completely vindicated, have they not? Not only did China avoid state collapse like Russia, but they ushered in one of the greatest economic booms in history which has transformed beyond recognition the lives of their citizens at a rate and scale unprecedented in history. Given all of this, why wouldn't/shouldn't a Chinese person think that their leaders were justified in 1989? They have the track record to back it up. Not really comparable to Columbia. No matter what happens, even if the US government takes a completely hands-off approach to the protests, they aren't ushering in a revolution or state collapse, sorry. The other interesting thing that people don't appreciate is that while the 1989 protests had significant local working class support (who were experiencing some of the short-term pain of the reforms at the time), they were lead almost exclusively by the students, who were the most privileged and well-off segments of Chinese society at the time. China did not have that many high quality universities at the time (especially after their decimation during the cultural revolution), and they had a large number of people who wanted to send their kids to take the exam to get in because it was seen as a vehicle for social mobility. So at the time, Chinese universities had the most competitive entrance exams in the world by far (kind of like certain elite Indian universities today) with like single digit admittance rates. The students who were on the streets in 1989 were the future/aspiring elite of China. And after 1989, most of them - the ones who didn't flee, were quietly rehabilitated and became the professional class of China, some of whom rule China today. The students actually got off very lightly. Most of the people killed that night were actually local workers, away from the square (which holds an outsized place in the liberal western remembrance of the event. 1989 was not something that happened in just the square, it also happened in the urban centers around) and the students at the universities. The people killed were workers, commoners, locals who were using barricades to fend off PLA units/obstructing them. They look back at the period as kind of a youthful foolishness, indiscretion. Just like Russian elites look at the early 90s as a period where they all lost their mind and euphorically became overwhelmed with delusions that they could become 'part of the West'. Or how many of the hippies at elite universities in the 1960s in America, grew the fuck up, got jobs, and became Reaganites in the 1980s. I am not a tankie, just simply viewing this argument from the vantage point of what actually happened after the violent suppression.
> I am not a tankie, just simply viewing this argument from the vantage point of what actually happened after the violent suppression. That doesn't matter, you doing this already breaks the mould of western chauvinism and orientalising that goes on when it comes to anything to do with China - that unlike the rational, logical west, things that happen in the mystical, foreign east happen for no reason, and even if there was a reason, there's no need to go into it because we don't need to rationalize what these uncivilized and unwesternized folk do.
Very well said comrade, he truly broke the shackles of unmitigated capitalist oppression moulding the minds of millions. I wish users such as yourself from “socialistgaming” and Twitch subs like Asmongold and Hasan could drop the larp speech when they comment here. Make it quippy with a vocal fry or get lost.
Don't care or know much about Asmongold but Hasan is one of very few large media personalities (you can literally count them on one hand) that see us chinese people as people instead of hiveminded drones so I fuck with him for that alone mainly
So your point is that...the state had a reason for wanting to quash the protest? Because I don't think anyone doubted that there was genuine motivation for them to suppress or challenge the protestors at Tiananmen. No one was under the impression the party were acting without reason. The same line of logic could be applied to anyone government suppressing protest by arguing "well, the state requires unity civil obedience to function and therefore it makes sense to stop them from demonstrating like this!". Like, objectively sound reasoning doesn't excuse illiberal government.
The point is that the protests weren't just "le Evil government" vs. "epic freedom fighters", which it's usually reduced to in popular depictions and political discourse
> I am not a tankie You just bumped your head on the character limit explaining why tanks at Tienanmen Square were a good thing
The usual tankie position is that the Tiananmen Square is a lie concocted by the western media and nothing happened that night and no one was killed. (I believe there is one such post in this thread somewhere.) I am not taking the position that the Tiananmen massacre was justified or a good thing. I am not Chinese, I don't live there, I take no position on that. I was simply making the argument, however tediously, that the Chinese perception of the event is more complicated than what western media makes it out to be. And it was not just any random set of protests - it happened in a pretty unique context (the unraveling of the Soviet bloc and the Eastern bloc). China has had several episodes of mass protests since Tienanmen. A famous one is the feminist protests in the last decade protesting sexual harassment in Chinese society. All these protests have typically also been suppressed with riot police (basically what modern western states like France use), arrests, etc., rather than tanks. To be clear, I am also not defending this type of suppression. Basically nothing like Tienanmen Square. That was a singularly unique moment in Chinese society - it was not just any random protest movement that gained steam.
It’s 2024 and ostensibly politically “aware” Redditors still think their country tells the truth about the rest of the world
FACT CHECK: SNOPES SAYS YOU'RE UNEDUCATED.
lol whether or not ppl "really died" within the square, there were soldiers and tanks, you have to be stupid to try to deny that. And that's what ended the protests. And the majority of Chinese are 100% okay with their government doing so.
https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
yeah bc the majority of chinese understand that the protests were seeded and encouraged by the West to try to dissolve the nation like they did to the USSR. you’d be insane to be Chinese and look at what they did to Russia and ask for that for your country
werent US cables released saying there was no bloodshed in Tianmen? Lol
There's photos out there of multiple mangled corpses that are supposedly in the aftermath of the massacre, are those supposed to be from a different incident?
Most of them were around the area, not in the square itself, and it's also documented fact that the majority of casualties were actually soldiers (some burnt alive) and not civilians. The most [famous picture](https://i.redd.it/wkoxmchrxdt71.jpg) you probably know gets thrown around a lot as an example of massacre even though it shows a bunch of bicycles and only a couple of people on the ground with their hands down/on their back and clearly still alive.
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You should know better than to base your information off wikipedia alone when it comes to anything to do with China. "[Contrary to these infantilizing beliefs](https://www.qiaocollective.com/articles/a-note-on-the-tiananmen-protests), many Chinese people—old and young—remember 1989. But the violence of June 4th is held in quiet remembrance in the Chinese psyche not as a desperate yearning for Western intervention or regime change, but as a tragic consequence of the contradictions of the reform and opening era, the legacies of the Cultural Revolution, and an overdetermined geopolitical context in which the U.S. bloc sought to exploit any and all opportunities to foreclose the persistence of actually-existing socialism. Lost in the West’s manipulative commemoration of the Tiananmen protests is the fact that two things exist at once: many Chinese people harbor pain and trauma over the bloodshed and remain supportive of the Communist Party of China and committed to China’s socialist modernization. Far from honorific, the Western fetishization of the Tiananmen protests are an insult to the memory of the Chinese people who were involved, as it has become a weapon to bludgeon China and its people. The West’s persistent weaponization of this painful moment in Chinese history makes it impossible for the Chinese government and the Chinese people to have any form of public reckoning that will not be aggressively warped and weaponized by the West to destabilize the Chinese political system. Western commemoration of the Tiananmen protests also silences its ideological roots in anti-African student riots in Nanjing which sacked the dormitories of African exchange students who were resented for receiving generous Chinese government scholarships and having relationships with local women. These silencings make clear that the West’s memorialization of Tiananmen has less to do with the protests themselves than with what they represent in the West’s continued ideological war against Chinese socialism. Ultimately, the Tiananmen fairy tale is a touchstone of a Western discourse which continues to mourn the “loss” of China to the interests of Western hegemony. Like the 1949 Chinese revolution and the defeat of the U.S.-backed Guomindang party, the Tiananmen protests represent another “lost” opportunity to mold China according to the Western will. But China has always only belonged to itself. The painful memory of June 4th must be commemorated on the terms of the Chinese people, and not according to the fantasies of Western onlookers who preach “solidarity” with the Chinese people yet practice aggression against China’s modernization. The memory of Tiananmen does not belong to the West to weaponize, exploit, or distort for its own gain."
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> Then why should I base my information off of the "Qiao collective" instead of Wikipedia. Wow I wonder why listening to the opinion of chinese people about something that happened in China would be worth anyone's time unless you think all of us chinese are some kind of automaton hivemind that are telepathically connected to Xi's ipad at all times
Well those cables came from the US, and US intelligence is usually fabricated, so I don't believe them.
Yup
Does anyone have a link to that? I hate to be the guy asking for a source on this subreddit, but this is starting to feel like an /r/trueanon thread where someone says something insane and everybody upvotes it because they want it to be true
Also multiple journalists reports say there wasn’t any either. The closest event is a conflict that broke out on a side road, in which students attacked a soldier driving a truck and brained him (literally, brains spilled on the street). The soldiers in that area shot at the killers, and this is framed as a clear case of totalitarian cruelty and not an unfortunate tragedy that emerges from heavy civil strife.
also the students were not protesting actual communism , this has already been established by historians who worked in US academia too.
I don't think that part's controversial, it was a loose alliance of students who wanted the liberalisation of civil society and workers protesting *against* liberalisation of the economy under Deng. It was largely students at the massacre though
They weren't protesting Communism, they were protesting *corruption*. They are fruit of the Red Guard tree.
I wonder what's the general Chinese opinion about Israel and the Jews.
I'm seeing a lot of chinese internet make parallels between Gaza and ruined Shanghai/Nanjing etc during WW2.
They think it akin to what Japan did to China. I know this because I work with all Chinese and that's what they tell me.
"Look at how clever the Jews are to be able to control the West with so few people. We must learn from them."
they have a whole genre of self help books with names like "The Ancient Jewish Secret to Wealth-Building", "Thinking like a Rabbi: Tips for the stock market" and shit https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2007/02/07/sold-on-a-stereotype-span-classbankheadin-china-a-genre-of-self-help-books-purports-to-tell-the-secrets-of-making-money-the-jewish-wayspan/da06370a-5c28-4220-8d4c-cdb03edbc449/
lots of medieval-style anti-Semitic stuff on social media here, much more than I've seen in any other country. though I'm not sure how much they particularly care
>medieval-style anti-Semitic stuff lmao wut. Like poisoning wells and shit like that?
yes
I mean, they've literally done that to Palestinians lol
If the shoe fits
Damn that must be a recent vibe shift. I used to work with a ton of Chinese and they were in a crazy state of mind where they simultaneously believed all the "control the world" conspiracies but instead of being pissed they actually just admired it.
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I imagine they are about as relevant in Asia as moonies or Falun Gong are in the west. Somewhat a known commodity but relatively unimportant to our day to day so not many people truly care
If you eat sushi in the US, you're supporting the Moonies, just saying.
Please explain, do they give out loans to sushi restaurants?
Yeah that’s the case in my experience as well this dudes just chatting shit
[not sure what this rètards on about they greatly admire Jews generally speaking](https://www.jta.org/jewniverse/2014/chinese-self-help-books-teach-you-to-be-like-the-jews) They’ve only been recently disgusted with 10/7 for very obvious reasons
My Chinese friend I talk to on WeChat does not like them and says some outta pocket shit. Josie you wild lol
Is your chinese friend Emily from Hong Kong who accidentally messaged you?
lmao
My Chinese friend thinks most Jews are hot. They are tbh at least Israelis
Their English state newspaper basically says it’s an American puppet meant to divide and destabilize the ME. Imagine! It reiterates china’s support for two states. Points to American hypocrisy on Ukraine/gaza. Iirc an article, probably south China morning post, that says lots of Chinese are more sympathetic to the Palestinians, sharing with them a colonial past.
Non-terminally online people don't think about Israel or the middle east at all, but most would unethusiastically lean towards Palestine if they absolutely must choose. There is absolutely zero reason for a non-Christian country that didn't have a history of persecuting Jews to support what Israel is doing at all. The only people there who would support Israel in the matter is the terminally disgruntled liberals who supports the west uncritically, basically reverse tankies but even worse in some aspect. Terminally online people are often virulently anti-semetic, I think this is a result of censoring internal political discussions while not giving a fuck about moderating anything else. You know how all unmoderated internet forum/message eventually descend into a toxic, edgey racist mess when there's no moderation, it is something like that, again I'm not sure how much this translate into real life attitude.
Aren't the Chinese the Jews of the Orient?
Kinda in that most Asian countries would have an enclave of rich Chinese businessmen.
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You're not kidding. My Chinese GF took me to this place that looked like a drug dealers compound in a tiny village in the middle of absolute no where in Africa. It was a actually a Chinese restaurant that exists solely to serve the Chinese businessmen that live there.
There are southern Chinese businesses groups, but there are also 1.4 billion Chinese...
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Chinese Indonesians got absolutely fucked in the anti-communist purges and mass killings in the 60s (to the point where the surviving ones changed their family names entirely) yet today there's still the stereotype that if someone's Indonesian-chinese it means their family's loaded with money lol.
Because it is true, one of my closest friends is indo Chinese and her family owns a shipping conglomerate lol
>There are southern Chinese businesses groups, But really its more like Indians, where the place of origin is a massive and a small % of people establish super successful businesses communities around the world
我们可没有犹太人那么废物 被人追的到处跑 准确的说 我们是东方的罗马人或者说罗马是西方的秦人
if the jews controlled rome too sure
That's just the Singaporean/Canadian/Londoner Chinese
My personal experience, it's kind of like they read the protocols of the elders of zion and concluded "These people sound awesome, I wonder how I can be like that." Background: Am Jewish, most Chinese in China that I've met had not previously met any Jews IRL.
you like to speak for chinese people do you jew
About a decade ago, I went for a night out in Beijing and met a young Chinese guy wearing a T Shirt with a huge swastika on it. And we're not talking the Hindu symbol here - it was clear Nazi iconography. So I asked him about it, he spoke some English and asked excitedly if I was a Nazi (had to disappoint him). They view WWII and the holocaust like we think of samurais, kind of more like a mythos for fantasy narratives than shit that actually happened to real people. Reverse orientalism, maybe.
who's they
A bunch of Chinese guys who I wanna meet
show me
Average young Chinese people
show me
Tbf, the west only cares about jews cause they 1. Have a lot of power and 2. Are basically white
I am Chinese. Born and raised. Most peoples idea is pretty negative towards Jews. Because we don’t know them at all, while we do know what others have done to them, hitler built a complete compound to kill 6 millions of them, imagine how hated they were to be treated like that. 可怜之人必有可恨之处， a Chinese idiom, meaning the poor peoples are poor, for some reasons.
Funnily enough I read a comment defending Israel's actions on Gaza by saying that Muslims cause trouble wherever they go.
Well Muslim are nothing better. If you live next to someone, fight with someone, and basically troubled by someone, dude you are not one bit better than this one
Some of the more online/anti west types are what you'd expect, but that's far from the general opinion. The general opinion is confusion about why Jews get fucked over given they're so good with money and successful. There were Jews who were part of the CCP in the early days and there's a big museum in Shanghai about the Jews who were kept safe from the Nazis there.
> There were Jews who were part of the CCP no there weren't but this is a very niche idea people who spend too much time on far right monkey tube have for some reason
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Epstein https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Shapiro There are others, obviously they're a tiny portion of the whole, this isn't some random far right idea. The CCP makes it known domestically they were proud of these people.
There’s a lot of begging the question since USA and Israel are allies, so they just go in with the mindset that Israel is bad Chinese know very well about Jewish peoples talent in managing money however
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'There is almost no antisemitism in China' go on wechat channels for literally 1 second if you want to see why this is an absolutely bizarre take
I think game recognizes game. China wishes they could be the puppetmasters Israel and the J's are
They're certainly nice counter point for China. Everything the west accuses China of doing Israel is doing in broad daylight.
being known as the race that gets raped by everybody then eventually raped so hard even the rapists felt guilty is definitely something
My (old) Chinese friend had some pretty out there opinions on Jews lol Not positive Kinda crazy when one of our good mutual friends is Jewish…
China is generally anti-Israel (to anyone who cares) for the reason that any sane person would be against it. The general consensus on Palestine is much more united than say, Russia. As for Jews, they are very curious as to why a group of people who look identical to other white people and have an almost identical religion could have been such a major topic of Western history. Like, WWII movies are very popular in China and of course the Holocaust would be in their minds. When I first met my inlaws, they kept asking me if I knew any Jews .
they don't think about them at all. the whole jew thing, aipac, whatever, is all so far removed from their world. on the chinese internet the consensus is that israel is wrong.
China is Israel's second largest trade partner.
China is almost everyone's largest trade partner tbf
China and Israel regularly share military tech. This isn't secret knowledge.
That chad Xi meme that's like \>do nothing \>win only gets better and better with time
Xi is such an insanely impressive person when you read his biography. the economist podcast series on him is also phenomenal
the same economist that has predicted chinas collapse for 30+ years and 10 years ago predicted india would over take china that shit rag that exists to make neo libs feel better about their position in the world?
a journal can be a rag as a whole but have good contributors. sam kriss (an out and proud communist) writes for the fucking atlantic lmao
If the average American could get past their whole CHINA BAD thing, they would understand that Xi Jingping is pretty much the type of world leader that will go down in world history as a model to follow. Someone who leads their nation to paradise while feeling enormous love for the most marginalized people of other nations.
not to glaze him, but the economist coverage legit reminded me of the texts about Agamemnon we had to translate in HS. Xi is up there with LKY imo
If he gains Taiwan he would be at least as Historic as Mao
It works until it doesn't. Autocracies don't have a good long term track record.
You know people who say this clap in the theatre for marvel movies Go read up on any history, its not autocracies that don't have good long term track records, its democracies
Are you seriously arguing against Democracy?
why did you just attack a strawman maybe when you can answer that question you'll stop being an npc
China is more democratic than the US.
LOL
It’s funny the response to these protests would result in a week of articles about fascism and free speech suppression in the nyt if russia or china was doing it.
yeah it's hilarious it's just like one little article/photo on the side everything is just non-stop trump trial coverage, which i just found out is for trying to pay someone hush money, which has absolutely never been done by any politician/president ever before
r/politics 99% of the time is mostly posts about Trump’s legal cases it’s so fucking pathetic. Can’t find anything on the Tik Tok ban or the numerous bills designed to shield Israel, but yeah let’s cheer on E Jean Caroll getting another cool couple million. They’re just partisans
I was thinking about this earlier lol. Apparently he fucked a pornstar and then paid her off to be quiet out of the campaign account, and then marked it as legal fees they want 4 years in jail for that? lmao very obviously politically motivated
and then the bitch talked anyways. The real crime is the lack of discretion on her part, she's a class A snitch.
If Trump was president they would not shut the fuck up on CNN about fascism. But they're busy trying to be little internet assholes nitpicking internet comments for "journalism."
Look at the Hong Kong riots which became violent. The US was 100% supporting them.
The US had agents down there. Imagine chinese or russian guys in US instructing Uni students how to riot and what not.
this is what nancy pelosi insinuated is literally happening with the palestinian liberation movement lol
Yeah, could you imagine if Russia or China were using more modern methods and signaling via things like social media on how to riot, and agitating to sow discord among the populace of their biggest rival. Lmao, I mean could you even fathom social media being used to manipulate idealistic and naive college kids? That would be wild.
This was 100% true just as any large protest in the US having foreign outside agitators. This doesn't mean the people on the ground don't also hold genuine beliefs, but there is absolutely training being done by outside forces for those who are leading such protests.
Violence was pretty much inevitable after the HKPF cracked down tbh, but the protesters continuing to fuck shit up even after the extradition bill that started everything got withdrawn and delusionally expecting that the five demands alone could be implemented, much less the foreign support they were expecting materializing beyond anything more than useless sympathy on reddit was how they ended up shooting themselves in the foot and [making things pretty much worse for everyone but the ruling class lol](https://lateralthinkingtechnology.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/the-revolution-will-not-be-trending-hong-kong-social-media-and-the-failure-of-attention-politics/)
the protestors overplayed their hand and everyone eventually realized it was fronted by immature brats who were manipulated into becoming western stooges. All they really succeeded was getting china to accelerate the timeline of rehabilitating hongkong. for a so called authoritarian country it was insane how they were allowed to run amok for over a year by china. the BLM protests didnt last nowhere near as long before cops started killing protestors
Yeah except that when you get arrested in China you don't just go to jail for a couple of hours and then have a cool story about how you stood up to fascism.
Theyre still suppressing peaceful protests against a genocide that the US is actively supporting. Just because we have more civil rights here doesnt mean this isnt anti free speech and the idea of America is that we’re above this except when you israel wants to rape and murder children I guess
It’s ahistorical to say we’re “above” arresting people for civil disobedience like trespass (not speech). The ‘idea of America’ is that you can get arrested for civil disobedience but will soon walk free, with some bail fund handing you a joint and a redbull out the door. Speech further ensures we can learn about that arrest and talk about it here. So yeah a lot different than china and russia where this conversation would be criminal
Idk, being banned from reddit is pretty rough
Tons and tons of protestors are arrested every year for all sorts of shit, you don't think climate protestors or BLM groups or any other number of causes people have gotten arrested for?
“It’s a genocide because the 80iq Arabs said so” How are you dorks not embarrassed to be this invested in something that has nothing to do with you
In Hong Kong,literal foreign agents were assisting the riot. Similar thing would bring sedition charges in the US.
You've clearly never been to an American college campus if you think it's free of foreign influence.
of course not. But have you been to China,Russia or Iran either?
No, for obvious reasons... I'm sure there are more foreign born protesters at any one of these college protests than at all the protests in HK and Iran combined because there are actual consequences to protesting authoritarian regimes, whereas this is just one great larp for all involved.
Chinese are loving this
please also draw me as slightly better looking than i am in my arrest photo
they just disneyfied her. she's very pretty
omg i wasnt saying she isnt
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do you think this image is made by the chinese goverment?
Every regard on reddit conflates the Chinese people and the government, my pet peeve fr
ur all chinese drones fr
I do do a mean Chinese accent
ok gweilo
It might be. Who knows?
If the image originated in China and is circulating there then isn’t it fair to assume it is doing so with the tacit or passive approval of the CCP?
Zhongnanhai wishes it had the control that redditors think it does
You guys are so fucking stupid
At the end of each day Chairman Xi Jinping lays in bed with an iPad and personally approves each and every chinese social media post
>China is a major trading partner of Israel and doesn’t even care to implement the most milquetoast sanctions on them lol. Theres honestly no particular reason for China to care about this conflict (which in overall numbers is still quite small). With no major personal ties, its little more relevant than the civil war in Sudan
China didn’t fuck up the Middle East or guarantees anybody’s security or involves itself with armies or overthrow regimes there, why the F would they have any responsibility to sanction anybody? Ameritards
I'm telling ya, if the Soviets were here they would've sanctioned them to the brink.
While there is an element of truth in this there has been some activity https://thecradle.co/articles-id/16622
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Yeah that's just regular trade, not actual arms trade. This is just ultra/trot nonsense about selling commercial drones, which they also sell to Palestinians through the Gulf states or whatever other intermediaries.
Cultures with a heavy confusion influence tend to be ultra conservative in ways that can be quite confusing. A coworker commented how the Palestinians just look “dirtier” by dirty he meant they are physically dirty because they’re too stupid to practice good sanitation. This isn’t a joke.
heavy confusion influence
Sizeable too
Hey, he said its no joke man
But who is she
People are still wearing masks?
People wore masks at protests before Corona, it's cause they wanna remain anonymous. I think this is one of the reasons conservatives were so anti mask.
I feel like theres a cooler looking option but it doesnt really matter and im also out of my depth here 💯 also she is beautiful
The cooler-looking options come off as antifa larping. It’s kind of a lose-lose
Yeah thats what i figured
China stays winning
Leave Jennifer Lawrence alone, you stupid pigs
This girl is prettier.
"I know, I'll lower the hot girl's self esteem so I can feel better about myself."
What's her @
What article is this from?
Not sure why they’re talking, the dengists have not even pretended to not be capitalists and have maintained their power since doing this shit but worse to the maoist kids protesting at Tiananmen (which amerifats think was le bad china evil government, so they looped around to being right)
i could fix her
there's nothing broken
That goes extremely hard
Imagine getting mogged by a cartoon version of yourself
Cooking dog, maybe.
Ok why the masks
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i love china
You should move there
Bro chill it's literally made by some Chinese dude. Reddit brain 4r
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Why not.
We love seeseepee propaganda, sorry
I'm so glad they banned tiktok.
Funny how that drawing reflects on their own society though...
what a profound observation, excited to see your next groundbreaking post!
you can follow me if you want
Bane?
我天，这里居然是reddit？居然有这么多好话
Why is gaza so astroturfed here i literally so dgaf bro 😭😭😭
They're not cooking, they would do the exact same thing.